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我們已經有密戶罪了"},{"start":53.7,"end":73.365,"text":"那如果沒有取得護理人員資格的人來執行護理業務就會有密護罪但是實際的臨床實務上造福源跟護理人員的業務範圍有一些模糊的空間那是誰創造這個模糊空間就是衛福部的函式衛福部的函式針對有些醫療輔助行為有些函式是"},{"start":74.686,"end":94.721,"text":"指出要護理人員依據醫師的指示執行但是有些韓式又說照服員可以做這裡有一個模糊空間那我也希望住院整合照護計畫在執行的時候在推動的時候也能夠考慮到照服員跟護理人員之間的職業界線不是單純人力的問題我覺得法規完備也需要去處理這樣子"},{"start":95.762,"end":103.613,"text":"好那現在呢第三點呢就是當然就回到我們的主題我們的主題今天我要有請那個衛福部部長"},{"start":108.008,"end":132.663,"text":"今天我想要針對部長來就教一個問題就是偏遠地區家庭專科護理師執行醫療輔助行為的釋法性那我想我們都知道偏遠地區其實醫師的人力非常的缺乏所以為了照顧當地的居民去尋找醫師的輔助人力就顯得非常的重要也有這個必要性好那我們也看到衛福部這幾年非常積極的在推動"},{"start":133.363,"end":151.695,"text":"家庭專科護理師制度那我想這個制度就是作為偏遠地區醫師輔助人力的一個來源那我想這個方向當然我們要反對但是有一些家庭專科護理師執行醫療輔助司法性問題值得探究那我想我這邊第一個問題就是"},{"start":155.05,"end":165.588,"text":"請問一下家庭專科護理師根據預歷醫療流程來執行醫療輔助行為請問這個釋法性為何就是有沒有違法的疑慮"},{"start":167.509,"end":193.144,"text":"我認為是沒有我們都有這個育立醫療流程的那個相關的規範的那個公告都有所以部長覺得家庭專科護理師依據育立醫療流程來執行醫療輔助行為沒有違法性的問題沒有問題好那我在想就是我們的中央主管機關的大家長就是衛福部然後就是部長您如果您都覺得這個問題沒有司法性的問題"},{"start":194.065,"end":208.118,"text":"那我覺得醫療機構有可能無所適從而跟著一起違法了而不自知那為什麼因為部長你根本不覺得一個有違法性的一個情境它充滿違法的一個模糊地帶它充滿違法的一個空間"},{"start":212.822,"end":235.635,"text":"我就現在一一的來跟部長說明為什麼家庭專科護理師依據預列醫療流程來執行醫療輔助行為其實是有違法的疑慮的那我們先從第一個階段開始說起我們專科護理師在執行醫療輔助行為要有法源那法源是什麼就是專科護理師你要執行醫療輔助行為的前提你要有醫師的指示"},{"start":236.155,"end":253.521,"text":"沒有醫師的指示你執行的醫療輔助行為你就會觸犯民醫罪法源依據在護理人員法24條那這邊就提到說醫療輔助行為應該在醫師的指示之下行之好那接著呢我們來看一下為什麼醫師要指示專科護理師去執行醫療輔助行為舉例傷口的換藥為什麼醫師要這麼做"},{"start":257.102,"end":272.128,"text":"情境是醫師他會評估病人的需求如果病人有傷口換藥的一個需要的話醫師就會指示專師去執行醫療輔助行為所以醫師他診察完病人之後他指示護理師"},{"start":272.908,"end":285.958,"text":"去做醫療輔助行為這段的法源是來自於醫師法第11條的本文那我們來讀一下本文醫師非親自檢查不得實行治療開給方際所以這段的法源依據在醫師法第11條那我們把這兩個階段合併起來組成一個專科護理師執行醫療輔助行為的三部曲第一部曲醫師會評估病人的需求病人有換藥的需求他"},{"start":297.627,"end":319.915,"text":"醫師就會進行第二部曲的動作醫師會指示專科護理師去執行醫療輔助行為專科護理師會進行第三部曲的動作就是在醫師的指示之下會去執行醫療輔助行為那這是一般通常的情形但是我們來講情境B情境B就是有些偏遠地區因為在山之巔海之邊完全沒有醫師的醫療資源"},{"start":321.155,"end":339.886,"text":"那如果專科護理師要去執行醫療輔助行為例如說傷口的換藥你要死守著我們剛講的專科護理師執行醫療輔助行為的三部曲的話你沒有醫師荷蘭醫師的親自診查荷蘭醫師的指示那專科護理師如何去執行醫療輔助行為所以這時候呢就給了一個解套的一個空間"},{"start":340.766,"end":356.05,"text":"解到的空間就是醫師法第11條的但書這邊提到說如果是偏遠地區那醫師沒辦法親自診察沒有關係那可以用通訊的方式去取代醫師的親自診察那親自診察之後醫師還是要下指示還是要下遺囑給專科護理師去執行醫療輔助行為這是"},{"start":359.031,"end":385.7,"text":"情境B那我們現在來看就是本席想請教部長的情境C請問一下專科護理師依據育立醫療流程執行醫療輔助行為在這個情境當中到底有沒有法源因為我們情境A講的法源就護理人員法24條醫師法第11條情境B講的法源就是護理人員法24條還有那個醫師法第11條的單書那請問一下情境C法源在哪裡"},{"start":387.381,"end":401.549,"text":"跟委員說明很佩服您對法規上的熟悉程度不過在護理人員即使不是專科護理師他在醫師的指示之下都可以執行醫療輔助行為"},{"start":403.766,"end":419.427,"text":"那麼過去的指示包含了預歷我們在過去臨床上就有這個叫做臨床路徑那麼臨床路徑的就是一種預歷醫療流程的概念所以就是按照"},{"start":419.947,"end":434.311,"text":"有一些的這個標準化的照顧模式下那麼醫師先下了這些這個預歷醫療流程或者是臨床入境由醫院所設計請問一下在那個地理的情境護理人員依照這樣的預歷醫療流程或臨床入境去執行並沒有違法治理但是你在打B你沒有掌握我的問題其實真的沒有掌握"},{"start":444.913,"end":457.308,"text":"我們來看一下蔡淑鳳師長她怎麼來介紹專科護理師的一個職業範圍她說根據醫院的預立醫療流程醫師不在場的時候專科護理師可以執行低危險的醫療行為這當中你根據預立醫療流程在這個病床"},{"start":461.012,"end":489.471,"text":"當下的這個情境其實醫師並沒有對病人去進行進行親自診察也沒有辦法指示專科護理師去執行所謂的預立醫療流程就是早在早在病人的情境發生之前你先把病人的一個情境先預立起來預立起來之後讓專科護理師根據預立醫療流程去執行但是你把這個流程拿到事發的當下去其實根本沒有醫師的診察來介入啊那沒有醫師的診察來介入那這樣不是違反醫師法第11條的規定嗎"},{"start":490.972,"end":505.595,"text":"那我們來看一下家庭專科護理師的日常家庭專科護理師的日常這邊提到說他們就是按照預立醫療流程來問診來做生品來執行超音波來執行心電圖這邊心電圖的執行超音波的執行這裡就充滿滿滿的醫療輔助行為的概念所以我還是要請問一下部長請問一下專科護理師依據預立醫療流程來執行醫療輔助行為到底有沒有法人"},{"start":518.438,"end":536.144,"text":"那你告訴我有法源是哪一條 你就告訴我有法源是哪一條醫療流程同樣的建築在緊急醫療救護法裡面的高級救護技術員緊急醫療救護法就是這個緊急醫療救護法是法律 立法院三次通過的法律但是護理人員所依據的醫療流程並沒有三次通過的法律真的不要硬拗了部長我告訴你這個問題全台灣沒有一個人比我更了解"},{"start":543.146,"end":565.243,"text":"因為我研究這個問題已經研究十幾年了我真的可以告訴你專科護理師的職業範圍我一路跟著他們走到現在這件事就是沒有法源你講的緊急醫療救護法有法源就是規範在緊急醫療救護法但是專科護理師根據預歷醫療流程來執行這些醫療輔助業務就是沒有法源不要睜眼說瞎話就是沒有法源我很重要哪裡你指出來啊"},{"start":568.144,"end":590.216,"text":"我都可以告訴你秦慶A的法源是一司法第十一條護理人員法二十四條秦慶B的法源是十一條的單書護理人員法二十四條你告訴我秦慶西的法源在哪裡你告訴我啊你講不出來你現在就當著全國人民的面前告訴我們秦慶西的法源在哪裡就沒有為什麼我會這麼激動因為就沒有我研究了十幾年就沒有"},{"start":591.717,"end":616.6,"text":"這個沒有真的就沒有請你告訴我法源在哪裡中華民國的法典六法全書打開請問是哪一條真的沒有法源不要睜眼說瞎話我希望針對這個沒有法源的問題這個法律漏洞的問題你們去填補家庭專科物理師有他推動的必要性我認同但是法源要完備因為法源如果不完備會有什麼問題會有命運罪的問題如果今天專科物理師也好護理人員也好"},{"start":617,"end":636.778,"text":"他沒有在醫師的指示之下執行醫療輔助行為他會有密呼罪你們如果要另辟蹊徑讓他們能夠根據預理醫療流程去執行醫療輔助行為請修法把這個法院的漏洞填補起來更何況你們今年今年積極推動了家庭專科護理師的育成居家護理所的示範計畫法院的依據好嗎"},{"start":639.961,"end":642.583,"text":"我們這個法案的依據是二四條護理人員法的二四條那第二四條裡面就講專科護理師及第七條之一接受專科護理師訓練之後的這個專科護理師呢他可以在這個"},{"start":655.393,"end":660.914,"text":"醫療監督下執行的醫療型業務我們有定這個辦法所以你覺得監督兩個字就是法源嗎那我們這個有一個辦法那辦法已經把專科護理師可以執行那個項目已經匡列出來好我告訴你第一你覺得監督兩個字不是你覺得監督兩個字就是等一下你覺得你讓我講你覺得監督兩個字就是法源請問監督的定義是什麼醫師所為的指示指導跟督促"},{"start":685.058,"end":702.789,"text":"所謂的監督就是醫師所謂的指示指導人督促請問一下這六個字當中有預歷醫療流程的概念嗎有有有好第二第二就算就算專科護理師與醫師監督下執行醫療也有辦法是一個法源好了是一個法源我們勉強認為他是一個法源我們有兩個辦法他是一個法規命令"},{"start":703.669,"end":719.53,"text":"法規命令如果抵觸議事法第十一條規定就會違法這是基本的common sense法律的ABC你抵觸的不是議事法第十一條的規定而已你還抵觸了議事法二十八條密罪的規定議事法二十八條密罪規定白紙黑字在這邊請想讀"},{"start":721.573,"end":748.972,"text":"那我接著講家庭專科護理師你們近年積極的這個推動那你們在事辦計畫裡頭呢要求呢居家護理所必須添設這些設備我覺得是應該的我覺得是必要的但是這些設備的添置就曝露出說居家護理所的專科護理師去居家勤進執行業務他其實就是滿滿醫療輔助行為的執行但是卻沒有法源你說的法源育立醫療流程根本沒有法源你講的那兩個辦法"},{"start":751.614,"end":765.28,"text":"有魔法授權下的兩個辦法來來來一個來來來來來來來這個嘛這個嘛請問一下這個就是專科護理師這個辦法哪裡哪裡說你告訴我哪裡說專科護理師依據預歷醫療流程可以執驗你告訴我5678956789我已經羅列出來了5哪一條說專科護理師依依預歷醫療流程可以執驗5哪裡有6哪裡有7哪裡有"},{"start":780.796,"end":800.814,"text":"哪裡有 有啦 第六條說根據育立醫療流程可以開立表單只有說根據育立醫療流程可以開立表單有說根據育立醫療流程可以執行醫療輔助行為嗎請不要睜眼說瞎話了沒有法源 沒有法源 就是沒有法源你再硬繞一千次 還是沒有法源"},{"start":804.395,"end":817.08,"text":"好請問何時能夠把這個法源填補起來法規不完備法律有漏洞請問何時能夠把這個法源其實就是修法補法源而已有這麼困難嗎有一些認知上的落差啦沒有認知上的落差沒有完備"},{"start":819.821,"end":843.008,"text":"完全沒有完備我們在過去執行這麼長的時間從來沒有發生過違規或者是法院的這些判決的事情因為衛福部長就是完全欠缺法律的認知啊所以在你的眼裡看起來就是沒有違法的情勢啊但事實上就是欠缺法源你們完全指不出來法源我已經努力出來啊你說有兩部執法好來這部執法我已經努力出來56789請問哪裡告訴你專科護理師"},{"start":847.209,"end":850.731,"text":"依據預理醫療流程可以執行醫療輔助行為請告訴我比如說這個你們就修法就好了嘛檢查檢驗這個本來就是醫師要開的這個本來是醫師要開已經授權了授權什麼這個第一條啊比如說非侵入性的這些本來是醫師的範圍"},{"start":870.683,"end":891.341,"text":"是低風險 是啊可以啊專科護理師的職業範圍根據副表一跟副表二可以執行40樣的醫療輔助行為問題是前提要有醫師的指示啊沒有醫師的指示你要按照預定醫療流程你就要有法源啊就是找不到法源 師長真的找不到法源專科護理師他有當然一個國際上跟"},{"start":891.821,"end":901.351,"text":"大家在醫療照顧需求的講那是國際上你來到台灣台灣專業人員職業都需要法院好說起法院我講最後一件事情我講最後一件事情那個護士的實習要點其實也是行政規則如果你們要透過護士的"},{"start":908.678,"end":914.921,"text":"的實習要點去擴展非具護理人員資格的人來臨床上執行業務的話那你們把這個法源放在行政規則裡頭我個人認為用行政規則的位階來處理這個事也抵觸了護理人員法的規定因為護理人員法說要取得證書的人才可以充護理人員但是你們現在讓不具護理人員資格的人就用你們的行政規則就可以在臨床上執業我就問一句嘛請問一下"},{"start":937.492,"end":954.443,"text":"病人的安全你置於何地病人的安全沒有取得護理人員資格的人你讓他去執業請問病人安全置於何地你就只是因為人力荒你找不到人力你沒有辦法用這些留任的獎金的方式或者是用一些人力改善的方式你就用這種"},{"start":955.584,"end":965.428,"text":"奇奇怪怪的方式去讓護理人員回流回流的不是合格的護理人員我相信這個基層護理人員是沒有人可以接受的你一來危及病人的健康你二來貶低護理人員專業的價值沒有具備護理人員的資格就可以投入職場請問一下我們辛苦去考國考到底是為了什麼"},{"start":978.053,"end":1002.32,"text":"你如果用行政規則的方式去放寬非具護理人員資格人投入職場行政部本身衛福部本身就是帶頭違法其實衛福部帶頭違法的地方比比皆是我今天只是揭露一樣到兩樣而已好那再請這個衛福部呢能夠去這個填補漏洞給我們專科護理師一個完備的一個法律制度避免他們在命運罪的邊緣遊走好"},{"start":1004.602,"end":1005.364,"text":"以上說明謝謝好謝謝謝謝謝謝部長接下來請"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}