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我們已經有密戶罪了"},{"start":53.7,"end":73.365,"text":"那如果沒有取得護理人員資格的人來執行護理業務就會有密護罪但是實際的臨床實務上造福源跟護理人員的業務範圍有一些模糊的空間那是誰創造這個模糊空間就是衛福部的函式衛福部的函式針對有些醫療輔助行為有些函式是"},{"start":74.686,"end":94.721,"text":"指出要護理人員依據醫師的指示執行但是有些韓式又說照服員可以做這裡有一個模糊空間那我也希望住院整合照護計畫在執行的時候在推動的時候也能夠考慮到照服員跟護理人員之間的職業界線不是單純人力的問題我覺得法規完備也需要去處理這樣子"},{"start":95.762,"end":103.613,"text":"好那現在呢第三點呢就是當然就回到我們的主題我們的主題今天我要有請那個衛福部部長"},{"start":108.008,"end":132.663,"text":"今天我想要針對部長來就教一個問題就是偏遠地區家庭專科護理師執行醫療輔助行為的釋法性那我想我們都知道偏遠地區其實醫師的人力非常的缺乏所以為了照顧當地的居民去尋找醫師的輔助人力就顯得非常的重要也有這個必要性好那我們也看到衛福部這幾年非常積極的在推動"},{"start":133.363,"end":151.695,"text":"家庭專科護理師制度那我想這個制度就是作為偏遠地區醫師輔助人力的一個來源那我想這個方向當然我們要反對但是有一些家庭專科護理師執行醫療輔助司法性問題值得探究那我想我這邊第一個問題就是"},{"start":155.05,"end":165.588,"text":"請問一下家庭專科護理師根據預歷醫療流程來執行醫療輔助行為請問這個釋法性為何就是有沒有違法的疑慮"},{"start":167.509,"end":193.144,"text":"我認為是沒有我們都有這個育立醫療流程的那個相關的規範的那個公告都有所以部長覺得家庭專科護理師依據育立醫療流程來執行醫療輔助行為沒有違法性的問題沒有問題好那我在想就是我們的中央主管機關的大家長就是衛福部然後就是部長您如果您都覺得這個問題沒有司法性的問題"},{"start":194.065,"end":208.118,"text":"那我覺得醫療機構有可能無所適從而跟著一起違法了而不自知那為什麼因為部長你根本不覺得一個有違法性的一個情境它充滿違法的一個模糊地帶它充滿違法的一個空間"},{"start":212.822,"end":235.635,"text":"我就現在一一的來跟部長說明為什麼家庭專科護理師依據預列醫療流程來執行醫療輔助行為其實是有違法的疑慮的那我們先從第一個階段開始說起我們專科護理師在執行醫療輔助行為要有法源那法源是什麼就是專科護理師你要執行醫療輔助行為的前提你要有醫師的指示"},{"start":236.155,"end":253.521,"text":"沒有醫師的指示你執行的醫療輔助行為你就會觸犯民醫罪法源依據在護理人員法24條那這邊就提到說醫療輔助行為應該在醫師的指示之下行之好那接著呢我們來看一下為什麼醫師要指示專科護理師去執行醫療輔助行為舉例傷口的換藥為什麼醫師要這麼做"},{"start":257.102,"end":272.128,"text":"情境是醫師他會評估病人的需求如果病人有傷口換藥的一個需要的話醫師就會指示專師去執行醫療輔助行為所以醫師他診察完病人之後他指示護理師"},{"start":272.908,"end":285.958,"text":"去做醫療輔助行為這段的法源是來自於醫師法第11條的本文那我們來讀一下本文醫師非親自檢查不得實行治療開給方際所以這段的法源依據在醫師法第11條那我們把這兩個階段合併起來組成一個專科護理師執行醫療輔助行為的三部曲第一部曲醫師會評估病人的需求病人有換藥的需求他"},{"start":297.627,"end":319.915,"text":"醫師就會進行第二部曲的動作醫師會指示專科護理師去執行醫療輔助行為專科護理師會進行第三部曲的動作就是在醫師的指示之下會去執行醫療輔助行為那這是一般通常的情形但是我們來講情境B情境B就是有些偏遠地區因為在山之巔海之邊完全沒有醫師的醫療資源"},{"start":321.155,"end":339.886,"text":"那如果專科護理師要去執行醫療輔助行為例如說傷口的換藥你要死守著我們剛講的專科護理師執行醫療輔助行為的三部曲的話你沒有醫師荷蘭醫師的親自診查荷蘭醫師的指示那專科護理師如何去執行醫療輔助行為所以這時候呢就給了一個解套的一個空間"},{"start":340.766,"end":356.05,"text":"解到的空間就是醫師法第11條的但書這邊提到說如果是偏遠地區那醫師沒辦法親自診察沒有關係那可以用通訊的方式去取代醫師的親自診察那親自診察之後醫師還是要下指示還是要下遺囑給專科護理師去執行醫療輔助行為這是"},{"start":359.031,"end":385.7,"text":"情境B那我們現在來看就是本席想請教部長的情境C請問一下專科護理師依據育立醫療流程執行醫療輔助行為在這個情境當中到底有沒有法源因為我們情境A講的法源就護理人員法24條醫師法第11條情境B講的法源就是護理人員法24條還有那個醫師法第11條的單書那請問一下情境C法源在哪裡"},{"start":387.381,"end":401.549,"text":"跟委員說明很佩服您對法規上的熟悉程度不過在護理人員即使不是專科護理師他在醫師的指示之下都可以執行醫療輔助行為"},{"start":403.766,"end":419.427,"text":"那麼過去的指示包含了預歷我們在過去臨床上就有這個叫做臨床路徑那麼臨床路徑的就是一種預歷醫療流程的概念所以就是按照"},{"start":419.947,"end":434.311,"text":"有一些的這個標準化的照顧模式下那麼醫師先下了這些這個預歷醫療流程或者是臨床入境由醫院所設計請問一下在那個地理的情境護理人員依照這樣的預歷醫療流程或臨床入境去執行並沒有違法治理但是你在打B你沒有掌握我的問題其實真的沒有掌握"},{"start":444.913,"end":457.308,"text":"我們來看一下蔡淑鳳師長她怎麼來介紹專科護理師的一個職業範圍她說根據醫院的預立醫療流程醫師不在場的時候專科護理師可以執行低危險的醫療行為這當中你根據預立醫療流程在這個病床"},{"start":461.012,"end":489.471,"text":"當下的這個情境其實醫師並沒有對病人去進行進行親自診察也沒有辦法指示專科護理師去執行所謂的預立醫療流程就是早在早在病人的情境發生之前你先把病人的一個情境先預立起來預立起來之後讓專科護理師根據預立醫療流程去執行但是你把這個流程拿到事發的當下去其實根本沒有醫師的診察來介入啊那沒有醫師的診察來介入那這樣不是違反醫師法第11條的規定嗎"},{"start":490.972,"end":505.595,"text":"那我們來看一下家庭專科護理師的日常家庭專科護理師的日常這邊提到說他們就是按照預立醫療流程來問診來做生品來執行超音波來執行心電圖這邊心電圖的執行超音波的執行這裡就充滿滿滿的醫療輔助行為的概念所以我還是要請問一下部長請問一下專科護理師依據預立醫療流程來執行醫療輔助行為到底有沒有法人"},{"start":518.438,"end":536.144,"text":"那你告訴我有法源是哪一條 你就告訴我有法源是哪一條醫療流程同樣的建築在緊急醫療救護法裡面的高級救護技術員緊急醫療救護法就是這個緊急醫療救護法是法律 立法院三次通過的法律但是護理人員所依據的醫療流程並沒有三次通過的法律真的不要硬拗了部長我告訴你這個問題全台灣沒有一個人比我更了解"},{"start":543.146,"end":565.243,"text":"因為我研究這個問題已經研究十幾年了我真的可以告訴你專科護理師的職業範圍我一路跟著他們走到現在這件事就是沒有法源你講的緊急醫療救護法有法源就是規範在緊急醫療救護法但是專科護理師根據預歷醫療流程來執行這些醫療輔助業務就是沒有法源不要睜眼說瞎話就是沒有法源我很重要哪裡你指出來啊"},{"start":568.144,"end":590.216,"text":"我都可以告訴你秦慶A的法源是一司法第十一條護理人員法二十四條秦慶B的法源是十一條的單書護理人員法二十四條你告訴我秦慶西的法源在哪裡你告訴我啊你講不出來你現在就當著全國人民的面前告訴我們秦慶西的法源在哪裡就沒有為什麼我會這麼激動因為就沒有我研究了十幾年就沒有"},{"start":591.717,"end":616.6,"text":"這個沒有真的就沒有請你告訴我法源在哪裡中華民國的法典六法全書打開請問是哪一條真的沒有法源不要睜眼說瞎話我希望針對這個沒有法源的問題這個法律漏洞的問題你們去填補家庭專科物理師有他推動的必要性我認同但是法源要完備因為法源如果不完備會有什麼問題會有命運罪的問題如果今天專科物理師也好護理人員也好"},{"start":617,"end":636.778,"text":"他沒有在醫師的指示之下執行醫療輔助行為他會有密呼罪你們如果要另辟蹊徑讓他們能夠根據預理醫療流程去執行醫療輔助行為請修法把這個法院的漏洞填補起來更何況你們今年今年積極推動了家庭專科護理師的育成居家護理所的示範計畫法院的依據好嗎"},{"start":639.961,"end":642.583,"text":"我們這個法案的依據是二四條護理人員法的二四條那第二四條裡面就講專科護理師及第七條之一接受專科護理師訓練之後的這個專科護理師呢他可以在這個"},{"start":655.393,"end":660.914,"text":"醫療監督下執行的醫療型業務我們有定這個辦法所以你覺得監督兩個字就是法源嗎那我們這個有一個辦法那辦法已經把專科護理師可以執行那個項目已經匡列出來好我告訴你第一你覺得監督兩個字不是你覺得監督兩個字就是等一下你覺得你讓我講你覺得監督兩個字就是法源請問監督的定義是什麼醫師所為的指示指導跟督促"},{"start":685.058,"end":702.789,"text":"所謂的監督就是醫師所謂的指示指導人督促請問一下這六個字當中有預歷醫療流程的概念嗎有有有好第二第二就算就算專科護理師與醫師監督下執行醫療也有辦法是一個法源好了是一個法源我們勉強認為他是一個法源我們有兩個辦法他是一個法規命令"},{"start":703.669,"end":719.53,"text":"法規命令如果抵觸議事法第十一條規定就會違法這是基本的common sense法律的ABC你抵觸的不是議事法第十一條的規定而已你還抵觸了議事法二十八條密罪的規定議事法二十八條密罪規定白紙黑字在這邊請想讀"},{"start":721.573,"end":748.972,"text":"那我接著講家庭專科護理師你們近年積極的這個推動那你們在事辦計畫裡頭呢要求呢居家護理所必須添設這些設備我覺得是應該的我覺得是必要的但是這些設備的添置就曝露出說居家護理所的專科護理師去居家勤進執行業務他其實就是滿滿醫療輔助行為的執行但是卻沒有法源你說的法源育立醫療流程根本沒有法源你講的那兩個辦法"},{"start":751.614,"end":765.28,"text":"有魔法授權下的兩個辦法來來來一個來來來來來來來這個嘛這個嘛請問一下這個就是專科護理師這個辦法哪裡哪裡說你告訴我哪裡說專科護理師依據預歷醫療流程可以執驗你告訴我5678956789我已經羅列出來了5哪一條說專科護理師依依預歷醫療流程可以執驗5哪裡有6哪裡有7哪裡有"},{"start":780.796,"end":800.814,"text":"哪裡有 有啦 第六條說根據育立醫療流程可以開立表單只有說根據育立醫療流程可以開立表單有說根據育立醫療流程可以執行醫療輔助行為嗎請不要睜眼說瞎話了沒有法源 沒有法源 就是沒有法源你再硬繞一千次 還是沒有法源"},{"start":804.395,"end":817.08,"text":"好請問何時能夠把這個法源填補起來法規不完備法律有漏洞請問何時能夠把這個法源其實就是修法補法源而已有這麼困難嗎有一些認知上的落差啦沒有認知上的落差沒有完備"},{"start":819.821,"end":843.008,"text":"完全沒有完備我們在過去執行這麼長的時間從來沒有發生過違規或者是法院的這些判決的事情因為衛福部長就是完全欠缺法律的認知啊所以在你的眼裡看起來就是沒有違法的情勢啊但事實上就是欠缺法源你們完全指不出來法源我已經努力出來啊你說有兩部執法好來這部執法我已經努力出來56789請問哪裡告訴你專科護理師"},{"start":847.209,"end":850.731,"text":"依據預理醫療流程可以執行醫療輔助行為請告訴我比如說這個你們就修法就好了嘛檢查檢驗這個本來就是醫師要開的這個本來是醫師要開已經授權了授權什麼這個第一條啊比如說非侵入性的這些本來是醫師的範圍"},{"start":870.683,"end":891.341,"text":"是低風險 是啊可以啊專科護理師的職業範圍根據副表一跟副表二可以執行40樣的醫療輔助行為問題是前提要有醫師的指示啊沒有醫師的指示你要按照預定醫療流程你就要有法源啊就是找不到法源 師長真的找不到法源專科護理師他有當然一個國際上跟"},{"start":891.821,"end":901.351,"text":"大家在醫療照顧需求的講那是國際上你來到台灣台灣專業人員職業都需要法院好說起法院我講最後一件事情我講最後一件事情那個護士的實習要點其實也是行政規則如果你們要透過護士的"},{"start":908.678,"end":914.921,"text":"的實習要點去擴展非具護理人員資格的人來臨床上執行業務的話那你們把這個法源放在行政規則裡頭我個人認為用行政規則的位階來處理這個事也抵觸了護理人員法的規定因為護理人員法說要取得證書的人才可以充護理人員但是你們現在讓不具護理人員資格的人就用你們的行政規則就可以在臨床上執業我就問一句嘛請問一下"},{"start":937.492,"end":954.443,"text":"病人的安全你置於何地病人的安全沒有取得護理人員資格的人你讓他去執業請問病人安全置於何地你就只是因為人力荒你找不到人力你沒有辦法用這些留任的獎金的方式或者是用一些人力改善的方式你就用這種"},{"start":955.584,"end":965.428,"text":"奇奇怪怪的方式去讓護理人員回流回流的不是合格的護理人員我相信這個基層護理人員是沒有人可以接受的你一來危及病人的健康你二來貶低護理人員專業的價值沒有具備護理人員的資格就可以投入職場請問一下我們辛苦去考國考到底是為了什麼"},{"start":978.053,"end":1002.32,"text":"你如果用行政規則的方式去放寬非具護理人員資格人投入職場行政部本身衛福部本身就是帶頭違法其實衛福部帶頭違法的地方比比皆是我今天只是揭露一樣到兩樣而已好那再請這個衛福部呢能夠去這個填補漏洞給我們專科護理師一個完備的一個法律制度避免他們在命運罪的邊緣遊走好"},{"start":1004.602,"end":1005.364,"text":"以上說明謝謝好謝謝謝謝謝謝部長接下來請"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:42:19.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:42:24.436000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員及各位政府官員，大家好。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:42:26.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:42:35.621000+08:00","text":"我其實想要針對陳菁徽委員質詢石部長的部分做一個想法的分享。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:42:35.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:42:51.092000+08:00","text":"第一件事情就是新進護士薪水真的沒有5萬，有的話，也只是極端值，平均上絕對沒有，如果講新進護士薪水5萬，我覺得完全是睜眼說瞎話，這是第一點基層護理人員的心聲。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:42:51.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:43:15.863000+08:00","text":"第二個就是住院整合照護計畫，當然，我們要納入照服員，但是請注意，我們在112年的時候已經有密護罪了，如果沒有取得護理人員資格的人執行護理業務，就會有密護罪，但是實際的臨床實務上，照服員跟護理人員的業務範圍有一些模糊的空間，是誰創造這個模糊空間？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:43:15.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:43:16.644000+08:00","text":"就是衛福部的函釋。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:43:18.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:43:30.111000+08:00","text":"針對醫療輔助行為，衛福部有些函釋指出要護理人員依據醫師的指示執行，但是有些函釋又說照服員可以做，這裡有一個模糊空間。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:43:30.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:43:42.521000+08:00","text":"我希望住院整合照護計畫在執行、推動的時候，也能夠考慮到照服員跟護理人員之間的職業界線，不是單純人力的問題，我覺得法規完備也需要去處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:43:45.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:43:51.613000+08:00","text":"第三點就回到我們今天的主題，我要請衛福部部長。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-18T09:43:51.613000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:43:53.810500+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:43:53.810500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:43:56.008000+08:00","text":"邱委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:43:56.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:44:04.153000+08:00","text":"今天我想要就教部長一個問題，就是偏遠地區家庭專科護理師執行醫療輔助行為的適法性。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:44:05.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:44:15.880000+08:00","text":"我們都知道偏遠地區醫師的人力其實非常缺乏，所以為了照顧當地的居民，尋找醫師的輔助人力就顯得非常重要，也有必要性。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:44:17.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:44:28.308000+08:00","text":"我們看到衛福部這幾年非常積極在推動家庭專科護理師制度，我想這個制度就是作為偏遠地區醫師輔助人力的一個來源。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:44:30.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:44:38.755000+08:00","text":"對於這個方向，當然我沒有反對，但是有一些家庭專科護理師執行醫療輔助適法性問題值得探究。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:44:39.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:44:50.703000+08:00","text":"第一個問題是，家庭專科護理師根據預立醫療流程來執行醫療輔助行為，請問這個適法性為何？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:44:51.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:44:53.588000+08:00","text":"有沒有違法的疑慮？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:44:55.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:45:03.114000+08:00","text":"我認為沒有，我們都有預立醫療流程相關規範的公告。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:45:03.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:45:12.099000+08:00","text":"所以部長覺得家庭專科護理師依據預立醫療流程來執行醫療輔助行為，沒有違法性的問題？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:45:12.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:45:13+08:00","text":"沒有問題。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:45:13.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:45:30.293000+08:00","text":"我想中央主管機關的大家長就是衛福部、就是部長，如果您都覺得這個問題沒有適法性的問題，我覺得醫療機構有可能無所適從，跟著一起違法了而不自知，為什麼？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:45:30.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:45:36.118000+08:00","text":"因為部長根本不覺得它有違法性的情境、充滿了違法的模糊地帶及違法的空間。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:45:40.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:45:51.048000+08:00","text":"我現在就一一跟部長說明為什麼家庭專科護理師依據預立醫療流程執行醫療輔助行為，其實是有違法疑慮的。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:45:51.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:45:53.629000+08:00","text":"我們先從第一個階段開始說起。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:45:54.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:45:59.072000+08:00","text":"專科護理師執行醫療輔助行為要有法源，法源是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:45:59.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:46:14.719000+08:00","text":"專科護理師執行醫療輔助行為的前提就是要有醫師的指示，沒有醫師的指示而執行醫療輔助行為，就會觸犯密醫罪，法源依據在護理人員法第二十四條，本條提到醫療輔助行為應該在醫師的指示之下行之。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:46:15.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:46:21.081000+08:00","text":"接著我們來看一下為什麼醫師要指示專科護理師去執行醫療輔助行為。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:46:21.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:46:21.501000+08:00","text":"以傷口的換藥為例，為什麼醫師要這麼做？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:46:25.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:46:36.346000+08:00","text":"情境是醫師會評估病人的需求，如果病人有傷口換藥需要的話，醫師就會指示專師去執行醫療輔助行為。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:46:37.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:46:51.717000+08:00","text":"醫師診察完病人之後，指示護理師去做醫療輔助行為，這段的法源是來自於醫師法第十一條的本文，我們來讀一下本文：「醫師非親自診察，不得施行治療、開給方劑……」所以這段的法源依據在醫師法第十一條。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:46:51.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:46:52.497000+08:00","text":"我們把這兩個階段合併起來，組成一個專科護理師執行醫療輔助行為的三部曲。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:46:52.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:47:16.751000+08:00","text":"第一部曲是，醫師會評估病人的需求，病人有換藥的需求，醫師就會進行第二部曲的動作，醫師會指示專科護理師去執行醫療輔助行為，專科護理師會進行第三部曲的動作，就是在醫師的指示之下去執行醫療輔助行為。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:47:17.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:47:21.092000+08:00","text":"以上是一般通常的情形，但是我們來講情境B。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:47:22.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:47:41.102000+08:00","text":"情境B是有些偏遠地區因為在山之巔、海之邊，完全沒有醫師的醫療資源，如果專科護理師去執行醫療輔助行為，例如傷口的換藥，要是死守著我們剛剛講的專科護理師執行醫療輔助行為的三部曲的話，沒有醫師，何來醫師的親自診察？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:47:41.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:47:42.202000+08:00","text":"何來醫師的指示？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:47:42.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:47:45.664000+08:00","text":"那專科護理師如何去執行醫療輔助行為？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:47:45.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:48:07.471000+08:00","text":"所以這時候就給了一個解套的空間，就是醫師法第十一條的但書，但書提到如果是偏遠地區，醫師沒辦法親自診察，沒有關係，可以用通訊的方式去取代醫師的親自診察，但親自診察之後，醫師還是要下指示、還是要下醫囑給專科護理師去執行醫療輔助行為，這是情境B。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:48:09.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:48:19.855000+08:00","text":"本席想請教部長的是情境C，請問一下，專科護理師依據預立醫療流程執行醫療輔助行為，在這個情境當中，到底有沒有法源？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:48:20.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:48:31.119000+08:00","text":"因為情境A講的法源是護理人員法第二十四條及醫師法第十一條；情境B講的法源是護理人員法第二十四條及醫師法第十一條的但書。","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:48:31.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:48:33.700000+08:00","text":"請問一下，情境C的法源在哪裡？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:48:35.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:48:56.893000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我很佩服您對法規上的熟悉程度，不過護理人員即使不是專科護理師，在醫師的指示之下，都可以執行醫療輔助行為，過去的指示包含了預立……","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:48:56.893000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:48:57.893000+08:00","text":"是，但現在就沒有指示啊！","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:48:57.893000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:48:58.893000+08:00","text":"有、有、有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:48:58.893000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:48:59.893000+08:00","text":"沒有指示。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:48:57.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:49:18.410000+08:00","text":"過去臨床上就有臨床路徑，臨床路徑是一種預立醫療流程的概念，就是按照一些標準化的照顧模式，醫師先下了預立醫療流程或者是臨床路徑，由醫院所設計，護理人員……","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:49:18.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:49:18.910000+08:00","text":"請問一下，在那個具體的情境，病人……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:49:19.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:49:19.930000+08:00","text":"護理人員依照這樣的預立醫療流程或臨床路徑去執行，並沒有違法之虞……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:49:19.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:49:22.290000+08:00","text":"我覺得部長並沒有掌握我的問題，我其實是問A，但是你在答B，你沒有掌握我的問題，其實真的沒有掌握。","quality":0.512},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:49:22.290000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:49:32.913000+08:00","text":"沒有，完全是OK的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:49:32.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:49:38.039000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下蔡淑鳳司長怎麼來介紹專科護理師的執業範圍。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:49:38.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:49:43.686000+08:00","text":"他說，根據醫院的預立醫療流程，醫師不在場的時候，專科護理師可以執行低危險的醫療行為。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:49:43.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:49:57.478000+08:00","text":"在這當中，根據預立醫療流程，在病人當下的情境，其實醫師並沒有對病人親自進行診察，進而也沒有辦法指示專科護理師去執行。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:49:58.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:50:17.471000+08:00","text":"所謂的預立醫療流程就是早在病人的情境發生之前，就把病人的情境先預立起來，預立起來之後，讓專科護理師根據預立醫療流程去執行，但是你把流程拿到事發的當下，其實根本沒有醫師的診察來介入，若沒有醫師的診察來介入，這樣不是違反醫師法第十一條的規定嗎？不會。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:50:19.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:50:33.475000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下家庭專科護理師的日常，這邊提到的是，他們就是按照預立醫療流程來問診、來做身評、來執行超音波、來執行心電圖，而心電圖的執行、超音波的執行，就充滿了滿滿的醫療輔助行為的概念，所以我還是要請問一下部長，專科護理師依據預立醫療流程來執行醫療輔助行為，到底有沒有法源？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:50:33.475000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:50:47.098000+08:00","text":"在法規面上、在執行面上，完全沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:50:47.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:50:50.259000+08:00","text":"有法源，那你就告訴我是哪一條？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:50:50.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:50:56.201000+08:00","text":"預立醫療流程同樣的見諸在緊急醫療救護法裡面的高級救護技術員，也是一樣的，他是預立醫療流程就可以執行……","quality":0.596},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:50:57.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:51:01.963000+08:00","text":"緊急醫療救護法是立法院三讀通過的法律，但是護理人員所依據的預立醫療流程並不是依據三讀通過的法律。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:51:01.963000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:51:02.963000+08:00","text":"所以他就是在醫師的指示下可以執行的，完全沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:51:02.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:51:28.539000+08:00","text":"真的不要硬拗了部長，我告訴你，這個問題全臺灣沒有一個人比我更了解，因為這個問題我已經研究十幾年了，我真的可以告訴你，關於專科護理師的執業範圍，我一路跟著他們走到現在，這件事就是沒有法源，你說緊急醫療救護法有法源，就是規範在緊急醫療救護法，但是專科護理師根據預立醫療流程來執行這些醫療輔助業務，這部分就是沒有法源！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:51:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:51:30.841000+08:00","text":"不要睜眼說瞎話，就是沒有法源！有啦！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:51:32.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:51:33.223000+08:00","text":"在哪裡你指出來啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:51:33.223000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:51:36.144000+08:00","text":"他完全可以執行，這個就是醫師的指示。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:51:36.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:51:46.910000+08:00","text":"我都可以告訴你，情境A的法源是醫師法第十一條，護理人員法第二十四條；情境B的法源是第十一條的但書，護理人員法第二十四條；你告訴我情境C的法源在哪裡？","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:51:46.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:51:47.591000+08:00","text":"你告訴我啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:51:48.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:51:49.171000+08:00","text":"你講不出來！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:51:49.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:51:54.534000+08:00","text":"你現在就當著全國人民的面前告訴我們情境C的法源在哪裡，就沒有啊！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:51:54.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:51:56.375000+08:00","text":"為什麼我會這麼激動，因為就沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:51:56.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:52:00.878000+08:00","text":"我研究了十幾年，真的就沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:52:01.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:52:02.660000+08:00","text":"請你告訴我法源在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:52:02.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:52:06.103000+08:00","text":"中華民國的法典、六法全書打開，請問是哪一條？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:52:06.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:52:20.636000+08:00","text":"真的沒有法源，不要睜眼說瞎話，我希望針對這個沒有法源的問題、這個有法律漏洞的問題，請你們去填補，家庭專科護理師有其推動的必要性，我認同，但是法源要完備，如果法源不完備，會有什麼問題？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:52:20.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:52:43.837000+08:00","text":"會有密醫罪的問題，今天專科護理師也好，護理人員也好，如果他在沒有醫師的指示之下執行醫療輔助行為，他會有密護罪的問題，你們如果要另闢蹊徑，讓他們能夠根據預立醫療流程去執行醫療輔助行為，請修法把這個法源的漏洞填補起來，更何況你們今年積極推動家庭專科護理師的育成居家護理所試辦計畫……","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:52:43.837000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:52:48.061000+08:00","text":"委員，我可以跟你回復一下法源依據，好嗎？","quality":0.294},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:52:48.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:53:03.793000+08:00","text":"這部分的法源依據是護理人員法第二十四條，第二十四條規定，專科護理師及依第七條之一接受專科護理師訓練之護理師，可以在醫師監督下執行醫療業務，所以我們是有訂這個辦法的。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:53:03.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:53:04.393000+08:00","text":"所以你覺得「監督」這兩個字就是法源嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:53:04.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:53:06.354000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，我們這個部分有訂一個辦法，該辦法就已經把專科護理師可以執行的項目匡列出來了，所以現在是有訂辦法的。","quality":0.58},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:53:06.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:53:08.674000+08:00","text":"好，我告訴你，第一，你覺得「監督」這兩個字就是法源，請問監督的定義是什麼？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:53:08.674000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:53:33.058000+08:00","text":"我們有訂一個辦法，有匡列了項目。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:53:33.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:53:39.282000+08:00","text":"所謂的監督，就是醫師所為的「指示、指導、督促」，請問一下這六個字當中有預立醫療流程的概念嗎？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:53:39.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:53:39.662000+08:00","text":"有、有、有，都有。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:53:40.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:53:48.807000+08:00","text":"第二，就算專科護理師於醫師監督下執行醫療業務辦法是一個法源好了，我們勉強認為他是一個法源……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:53:49.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:53:49.668000+08:00","text":"我們有兩個辦法，母法有授權，一個是護理人員法……","quality":0.35},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:53:49.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:54:07.530000+08:00","text":"他是一個法規命令，法規命令如果牴觸醫師法第十一條規定就會違法，這是基本的common sense、法律的ABC，你牴觸的不只是醫師法第十一條的規定，你還抵觸醫師法第二十八條秘醫罪的規定，醫師法第二十八條秘醫罪規定白紙黑字在這邊，請詳讀。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:54:09.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:54:36.932000+08:00","text":"接下來，家庭專科護理師你們今年要積極地推動，你們在試辦計畫裡頭要求居家護理所必須添設這些設備，我覺得是應該的，我覺得是必要的，但是這些設備的添置，就暴露出居家護理所的專科護理師去居家情境執行業務，其實就是滿滿的醫療輔助行為的執行，但是卻沒有法源，預立醫療流程根本沒有法源，你講的那一條根本不是法源。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:54:36.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:54:40.815000+08:00","text":"我們有兩個辦法，母法授權下的兩個辦法。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:54:41.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:54:44.216000+08:00","text":"哪一個？對啊！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:54:45.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:54:46.037000+08:00","text":"就是專科護理師於醫師監督下執行醫療業務辦法。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:54:46.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:54:49.018000+08:00","text":"你告訴我，哪裡說專科護理師依預立醫療流程可以執業？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:54:49.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:54:49.438000+08:00","text":"你告訴我！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:54:49.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:54:52.920000+08:00","text":"五、六、七、八、九，我已經羅列出來了，哪一條說專科護理師依預立醫療流程可以執業？","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:54:52.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:54:53.020000+08:00","text":"五，哪裡有？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:54:53.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:54:53.180000+08:00","text":"六，哪裡有？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:54:53.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:54:53.260000+08:00","text":"七，哪裡有？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:55:08.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:55:10.097000+08:00","text":"八，哪裡有？有啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:55:10.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:55:22.108000+08:00","text":"第六項說，根據預立醫療流程可以開立表單，只有說根據預立醫療流程可以開立表單，有說根據預立醫療流程可以執行醫療輔助行為嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:55:22.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:55:28.793000+08:00","text":"請不要睜眼說瞎話了，沒有法源，沒有法源，就是沒有法源，再說一到一千次，還是沒有法源！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:55:32.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:55:34.796000+08:00","text":"好，請問何時能夠把這個法源填補起來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:55:34.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:55:38.257000+08:00","text":"法規不完備，法律有漏洞，請問何時能夠把這個法源填補起來？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:55:38.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:55:41.499000+08:00","text":"其實就是修法補法源而已，有這麼困難嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:55:41.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:55:43.279000+08:00","text":"這有一些認知上的落差，我們認為這已經是完備了。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:55:43.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:55:49.381000+08:00","text":"沒有認知上的落差，沒有完備，完全沒有完備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:55:50.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:55:57.724000+08:00","text":"過去執行這麼長的時間，從來沒有發生過違規或者是有法院判決的事件。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:55:57.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:15.609000+08:00","text":"因為衛福部長就是完全欠缺法律的認知，所以在你的眼裡，看起來就是沒有違法的情事，但事實上就是欠缺法源，你們完全指不出來法源在哪裡，我已經羅列出來了，你說有兩部子法，這部子法我已經羅列出來五、六、七、八、九，請問哪裡告訴你專科護理師依據預立醫療流程可以執行醫療輔助行為？","quality":0.858},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:15.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:15.730000+08:00","text":"請告訴我！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:15.730000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:16.730000+08:00","text":"我請司長說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:15.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:15.870000+08:00","text":"比如說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:15.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:16.130000+08:00","text":"你們修法就好了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:16.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:16.870000+08:00","text":"比如說檢查、檢驗，這個本來就是醫師要開立的，表示他已經授權了。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:16.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:17.030000+08:00","text":"授權什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:17.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:41.485000+08:00","text":"第一項當中，比如說非侵入性的這些，本來是醫師的範圍，但那是低風險，所以在授權之下是專科護理師可以執行的。","quality":0.532},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:41.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:42.486000+08:00","text":"可以啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:42.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:48.191000+08:00","text":"專科護理師的執業範圍根據附表一跟附表二，可以執行40樣的醫療輔助行為……","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:48.191000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:49.191000+08:00","text":"一個是侵入性、一個是非侵入性，我們……","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:48.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:56:56.819000+08:00","text":"前提是要有醫師的指示，沒有醫師的指示，要按照預立醫療流程的話，你就要有法源，但就是找不到法源，司長真的找不到法源。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:56:57.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:57:01.403000+08:00","text":"專科護理師有一個在國際上跟大家在醫療照護需求的角色，所以我們的法規已經完備了。","quality":0.568},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:57:01.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:57:06.148000+08:00","text":"那是國際上，你來到臺灣，則臺灣的專業人員執業都需要有法源。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:57:06.148000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:57:07.148000+08:00","text":"他如果是護理師，他就不需要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:57:07.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:57:22.561000+08:00","text":"我講最後一件事情，護士的實習要點，其實也是行政規則，如果你們要透過護士的實習要點，去擴展非具護理人員資格的人臨床上來執行業務的話，你們把這個法源放在行政規則裡頭，我個人認為，用行政規則的位階來處理這個也牴觸了護理人員法的規定，因為護理人員法規定，要取得證書的人才可以充任護理人員，但是，你們現在讓不具護理人員資格的人，用你們的行政規則，讓他們可以在臨床上執業……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:57:22.561000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:57:23.561000+08:00","text":"那不是實習護理人員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:57:22.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:57:47.633000+08:00","text":"我就問一句，請問一下病人的安全你置於何地？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:57:48.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:57:53.017000+08:00","text":"讓沒有取得護理人員資格的人去執業，請問病人的安全你置於何地？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:57:53.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:58:10.467000+08:00","text":"你就只是因為人力荒，找不到人力，沒有辦法用這些留任獎金的方式，或者是用一些人力改善的方式，你就用這種奇奇怪怪的方式去讓護理人員回流，而回流的不是合格的護理人員，我相信這個部分基層護理人員是沒有人可以接受的。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"蔡司長淑鳳","start":"2026-03-18T09:58:10.467000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T09:58:11.467000+08:00","text":"護理人員指的是領有證照的才叫護理人員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:58:10.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:58:12.528000+08:00","text":"你一是危及病人的健康，你二是貶低護理人員專業的價值，沒有具備護理人員的資格就可以投入職場。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:58:12.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:58:13.428000+08:00","text":"請問一下，我們辛苦去考國考到底是為了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:58:26.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:58:40.457000+08:00","text":"衛福部不要這樣亂七八糟的帶頭違法，你如果用行政規則的方式去放寬非具護理人員資格的人投入職場，衛福部本身就是帶頭違法，其實衛福部帶頭違法的地方比比皆是，我今天只是揭露一樣到兩樣而已。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-03-18T09:58:41.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:58:53.284000+08:00","text":"總之，再請衛福部能夠去填補漏洞，給我們專科護理師一個完備的法律制度，避免他們在密醫罪的邊緣遊走，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-18T09:58:53.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:58:53.304000+08:00","text":"謝謝邱慧洳委員，謝謝部長。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-18T09:58:53.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T09:58:53.364000+08:00","text":"接下來請黃秀芳委員。","quality":0.444}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}