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我們有請部長好 有請鄭部長委員好部長好好那我想最近大家對於少年事件處理法呢有許多的討論跟爭議啦不過我想今天也是想要再跟部長做更多的討論就是說在少師法的核心呢其實就是以保護優先 教育先行所以這個目的呢其實是要讓我們的"},{"start":36.791,"end":53.742,"text":"這個孩子呢能夠健全自我成長調整他的成長環境並矯正其他的性格所以我想我們還是一個很重要的重點就是專業的輔導跟支持讓他們可以降低災犯順利的能夠回到這個社會裡面"},{"start":55.765,"end":82.535,"text":"但是我想當我們在講保護先行的時候我們還是要去正視我們現在的制度上面的確有一些問題否則這可能就會讓這個保護反而讓大家非常的害怕反而就變成一個實際上的一個崩解的狀態所以我想接下來就想要跟這個部長在針對幾個特別是矯正學校上面來去做討論矯正學校的目的其實是要讓這些孩子能夠獲得授教權"},{"start":84.67,"end":112.788,"text":"但是根據基層教師教父小組的第一線反應呢我們現在校內的氛圍還是偏向於是戒護安全優於教育輔導我想這個其實之前也有非常多的委員都來關心過這一題那我們今天其實所有的今天的內容呢都是第一線的人員從社工程特教從教父老師這邊得到的一些回饋所以也希望說可能在實務上面我們可以怎麼樣來協助大家做改善然後來落實我們兒少的一個保護"},{"start":113.809,"end":134.879,"text":"還有我們這些孩子的受教權所以第一個問題就是說教學連貫性常常因為安全考量或是人力不足而中斷就例如說我們可以看到在日本他們有很多的執訓來提供給這些孩子那我們台灣也有像餐飲課的孩子他們也是有烘焙課的課程可是我們從第一線人員的回饋裡面得到說"},{"start":135.859,"end":143.275,"text":"有些孩子他們本來應該要進行實作課程的時候卻因為介乎人力調度不過來所以孩子最後只能上理論課"},{"start":145.014,"end":166.619,"text":"那我想現在我們在這個教政學校的孩子呢其實他們成長的背景都比較可能52%我看了一些報告都是來自於競評或是單親就是這個家庭資源其實是相對薄弱的所以他們其實不太有機會可以去探索他自己那在我們108課綱裡面其實有個重點就是希望可以讓他們去探索嘛"},{"start":167.179,"end":196.046,"text":"那現在就變成是說當這個孩子要探索之前我們先有一個最大的問題是我們有沒有更多的穩定的資源例如心腹資源 特教資源讓他能夠安心去探索所以這是第一個部分我們還能不能有更好的一個比例那在第二個部分是說當他去做探索跟他去做這些課程的時候我們常常又會因為介護跟教學衝突而造成他最後可能只能上理論課所以我們是不是可以去"},{"start":197.566,"end":217.696,"text":"盤點我們因為借戶人力不足而導致他沒有辦法進行實作這樣子的一個狀態到底統計數字上面有多少我們是不是可以來做這兩件事情好謝謝那這部分因為這部分我有關心我是不是請那個小政署署長就關於邵教肖跟邵官所這部分沒問題好謝謝"},{"start":220.143,"end":240.171,"text":"委員好 謝謝委員跟我們提到這些問題其實每一個小中學校 現在我們有四所小中學校每個小中學校裡面都有一個校長校長是由教育人員來擔任的他會評估當下的那個介入安全跟教育的一個課程的安排他會做評估的所以說我們不會偏重在介入安全"},{"start":241.656,"end":268.918,"text":"我的問題在於說我們知道但是我們也非常清楚的知道裡面流動率非常的高所以我們是不是可以更清楚的用數據來去呈現說有多少的實作課程因為介乎人力不足而導致他最後只能上理論課因為其實在植訓來說最有趣的地方就是實作課對不對我們不可能全部都上理論課我們一定要有更多的實作課讓孩子有機會去操作因為對於一些特教在特教教育上面也會有一些透過實作的方式讓孩子可以更穩定"},{"start":269.879,"end":293.439,"text":"所以今天如果說我們可以有一個更清楚的明確的統計資料的話我們就會知道說到底多少因此而受影響否則現在都是一種感覺上對不對所以這件事情是不是可以做一個盤點呢我們可不可以從現在開始來做統計受到影響的狀態那第二個問題呢其實就是說我們現在還有一個就是司法矯正主導跟教育輔導介入之間的一個專業磨合"},{"start":298.523,"end":322.815,"text":"就是也是現場人員告訴我們說矯正人員跟教育人員的一個教育訓練本來背景就是不太一樣就是過去我們都是以矯正人員為主可是我們現在已經加入了很多不管是新福拉特教其實都已經把這些人員專業給納入可是他們現在沒有共同的職前訓練也就造成說他們沒有辦法彼此理解而造成標準不一那現場管理也就造成了一些困難"},{"start":323.795,"end":352.39,"text":"所以我們是在想說有沒有可能呢這個是可以來做一個針對新進的矯正人員我們提供一個心理發展的專業增能課程讓他們在這個制度的設計之下可以彼此了解然後不會變成是說一般都是扮得非常黑的黑臉管秩序然後完全不理解他的心理發展跟創傷因為大部分的孩子都有一些創傷嘛所以我們是不是可以往這個方向來做還是"},{"start":353.35,"end":373.366,"text":"實務上都有這樣在做每一個新進人員都會一年會至少調到我們書裡面來訓練一次那在現場運作上的話像校長是教育人員副校長是我們矯正人員所以說校長副校長他們兩個人都會去溝通去評估當下的話我們應該怎麼處置是最好的基本上我們還是以教育先行這樣的目標在推行的"},{"start":373.953,"end":399.419,"text":"好 我想 因為我們今天所諮詢的內容是第一線的回饋所以也許我們這邊的理解跟第一線的也是存在落差所以是不是有可能我們可以來提供給我們一個資料就是說我們到底現在安排的這些對於矯正人員來提供的一些不管是心理啦 特教啦這些職能的訓練 真能訓練的一個數字到底每一年有多少 每個學校做多頻繁"},{"start":400.819,"end":409.861,"text":"一個一個矯正人員是做到上完一次之後就結束了嗎還是他有持續的在上這個資料是不是就可以提供給我們好我們再提供資料給委員謝謝那再來就是說"},{"start":411.79,"end":433.261,"text":"還有還是他們說他們第一線工作者反映他們的工作量非常的大甚至要分攤非專業背景的政策業務嚴重的壓縮他們個案輔導的品質實際上來說輔導教師可能一個人要對40個人所以這要如何去維持品質呢我想這個部分其實也是蠻需要我們這個"},{"start":434.962,"end":454.768,"text":"矯正署再來協助我們現場人員的一點就是說他們很在意校內日常處遇如何運作以及如何共同接觸學生所以是不是可以研議一個建立專屬矯正學校的跨領域之前與在職共同研習來確保我們的矯正人員跟教育人員能夠用同一套語言來溝通"},{"start":457.561,"end":475.159,"text":"這個部分是可以的嗎可以可以可以 謝謝委員的指導那大概什麼時候我們可以來追蹤這個相關的進度呢先跟委員報告其實我們的輔導老師的一個比例的話對最高是1比31 最低是1比14所以說以市所學到的沒有不會達到1比40這樣的一個輔導老師這樣的比例"},{"start":475.359,"end":486.805,"text":"好 那沒關係因為我們現在是從那個現場得到的一些回饋還是說我們再約時間針對這一題我們再來詳細討論好不好好 那再來因為我還有別的題目還有就是特教資源"},{"start":489.414,"end":518.532,"text":"好那基本上就是在2023年我們特教法修正之後呢有強調要保證特教學生的學習權益跟合理調整而是以我們現在的四所矯正學校的障礙生來說呢合理調整跟特教支持的落實有明顯的落差也是老師們的回饋啦就是說矯正學校的特殊教育正在面臨嚴重的鑑定與結構性體制的困境因為呢他們的背景來源其實相當的複雜可能不管是入校前中錯啦然後或是幫派的文化等等的"},{"start":519.412,"end":545.154,"text":"那這就導入他們在入校之後的障礙樣態非常的複雜跟傳統的教育體系是存在的一個落差所以是說我們現在送鑑定的個案呢常常因為資料難以佐證或是難以排除藥物的影響而被判成非特教生也就是說他因為今天是特教生他才能夠得到特教資源可是他今天被判非特教生的時候他就拿不到這些特教資源所以"},{"start":546.34,"end":567.976,"text":"這是一個問題那再來第二個就是說特教還有我們非常強調就是個別化的一個需求來提供給他針對性的一些支持可是我們現在在矯正學校常常會強調一個所謂的一致性的管理跟戒護安全所以就變成是說因為矯正學校的孩子落差非常非常的大樣態也很不一致所以"},{"start":569.138,"end":584.34,"text":"現在一般特教體系用的一些教材教案到了矯正學校也常常不適用所以我們是不是可以做一件事情就是邀請我們的鑑定單位還有矯正學校的特教老師共同建立一個更適合"},{"start":584.921,"end":585.241,"text":"是是是"},{"start":601.904,"end":622.05,"text":"跟委員報告目前的話我們有經過鑑定這案的特教學生總共是146名那我們的那個特教的老師是11名平均是1比13點多那目前我們跟國教署雙方談的是說1比15這樣的比例所以說我們是有符合國教署這樣的比例可是未來都我們朝向1比8的比例來邁進"},{"start":622.97,"end":638.211,"text":"我想這裡面其實不是比例的問題當然比例就是說比例的確是維持但是我們其實特教老師的流動率也非常高新任的比例也非常高那再來就是說今天講的重點其實是孩子沒有辦法被判為特教生"},{"start":640.054,"end":666.705,"text":"不過那個是一個持續性的鑑別問題我們有特教老師在那邊我們會訓練我們的特教老師具有鑑別的能力如果這個學生他已經出現是智商是學習障礙是情緒障礙等等的話我們會再重新再跟他鑑定所以他們多久會評估一次呢這個要看那個老師他現場看到的情形只要發覺他當下有這樣的障礙需要去跟他鑑定的話那個老師就這樣做這樣的安排"},{"start":667.455,"end":689.3,"text":"好那這個部分我們是不是也可以約時間來詳細的討論呢因為其實特教的問題也是蠻複雜的啦那我想最後一個一點這個可能要請這個教政署衛福部還有法務部跟衛福部一起來討論就是說這些孩子離開學校之後他如何回歸社會那其實回歸社會他就要回到他原本的家庭裡面"},{"start":690.06,"end":714.468,"text":"那如果家庭可以支持的話他基本上就可以在家庭裡面好好的回歸社會可是如果家庭不能支持的狀況之下他可能就回到幫派或是離開家庭去的別的地方對不對 中廟都有可能好 那所以呢我們現在在家庭端其實我們也都非常清楚的知道52%的孩子家庭其實相當不健全所以這可能就要跟衛福部來持續的討論如何的去支持這些家庭的功能變好"},{"start":715.448,"end":736.045,"text":"這樣子才有可能讓這些孩子真正的是能夠在家庭裡被支持因為我們從這個一些統計的研究發現很多的家長回去也是繼續打罵啦或者是不是非常好的一個管教方式啦所以我們是不是可以跟這個衛福部來重新我不曉得現在有沒有一個非常好的機制來去給家長支持"},{"start":738.647,"end":762.868,"text":"這個部分可不可以簡單說明一下是 跟委員說明一下其實從學生入校六週內的時候我們就跟衛福部的保護師做逆境少年他的家庭自治服務方案我們就會跟他做一個聯繫的我們希望說這個少年能夠貫穿式的一個保護服務從他入校開始一直到他出校為止該有的學籍轉嫌就業的媒合還是他需要什麼社政資源的接觸的話我們跟衛福部的保護師都有密切的在聯絡當中"},{"start":764.13,"end":785.909,"text":"而且他出現的時候我們在追蹤一年但是我想 因為我們兒少的再犯率相對來說也還是偏高啦所以表示說這個機制上面到底運作的如何對 那這個部分是不是也可以給我們現在你們的一個運作機制的這個簡單的說明好不好這個應該是可以匯報或者是就可以提供的吧 對不對好 我們再提供詳細資料給委員好 那我們就在約時間再來詳細討論 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:36:09.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:36:10.554000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-18T10:36:10.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:36:14.538000+08:00","text":"有請鄭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-18T10:36:14.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:36:14.798000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:36:15.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:36:15.499000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:36:17.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:36:50.722000+08:00","text":"最近大家對於少年事件處理法有許多的討論跟爭議，今天也想再跟部長做更多的討論，少事法的核心就是以保護優先、教育先行，目的其實是要讓我們的孩子能夠健全自我成長，調整他的成長環境並矯治他的性格，還有一個很重要的重點，就是專業的輔導跟支持，讓他們可以降低再犯，能夠順利的回到社會裡面。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:36:52.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:37:07.090000+08:00","text":"但是，當我們在講保護先行的時候，還是要去正視現在制度上面的確有一些問題，否則這個保護反而讓大家非常的害怕，實際上變成一個崩解的狀態。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:37:07.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:37:31.536000+08:00","text":"所以，接下來想要跟部長特別再針對矯正學校做討論，矯正學校的目的其實是要讓這些孩子能夠獲得受教權，但是根據基層教輔小組的第一線反映，現在校內的氛圍還是偏向戒護安全優於教育輔導。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:37:32.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:37:53.170000+08:00","text":"這之前也有非常多的委員都關心過這一題，其實今天所有的內容都是第一線的人員，從社工、特教、教輔老師得到的一些回饋，所以也希望在實務上面，我們可以來協助大家做改善，以落實兒少的保護還有這些孩子的受教權。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:37:53.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:38:20.275000+08:00","text":"第一個問題，教學連貫性常常因為安全考量或是人力不足而中斷，例如我們可以看到在日本有提供這些孩子很多的職訓，我們臺灣也有，像餐飲科的孩子也是有烘焙的課程，可是我們從第一線人員的回饋裡面得知，有些孩子本來應該要進行實作課程，卻因為戒護人力調度不過來，所以孩子最後只能上理論課。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:38:23.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:38:39.198000+08:00","text":"我看了一些報告，現在矯正學校的孩子其實他們成長的背景可能52%都是來自於近貧或是單親，就是家庭資源其實是相對薄弱的，所以他們其實不太有機會可以去探索自己。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:38:39.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:38:43.599000+08:00","text":"在108課綱裡面有個重點，就是希望可以讓他們自己去探索嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:38:46.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:38:52.061000+08:00","text":"當這個孩子要探索之前，我們有一個最大的問題是有沒有更多穩定的資源？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:38:52.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:39:11.726000+08:00","text":"例如心輔資源、特教資源，讓他能夠安心去探索，這是第一個部分，我們能不能有更好的一個比例；第二個部分，當他去做探索及上這些課程時，常常又會因為戒護跟教學衝突而造成他最後可能只能上理論課。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:39:11.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:39:23.771000+08:00","text":"所以，我們是不是可以去盤點因為戒護人力不足而導致沒有辦法進行實作的狀態，到底統計數字上面有多少？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:39:24.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:39:25.912000+08:00","text":"你們是不是可以來做這兩件事情？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-18T10:39:27.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:39:31.854000+08:00","text":"謝謝，這部分因為委員有在關心，我請矯正署署長來說明……","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:39:33.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:39:34.676000+08:00","text":"可以，沒問題。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-03-18T10:39:34.676000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T10:39:37.143000+08:00","text":"關於少矯校跟少觀所部分，謝謝。","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:39:37.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:39:40.624000+08:00","text":"委員好，謝謝委員提到這些問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:39:42.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:39:57.151000+08:00","text":"首先，我們有4所矯正學校，每所矯正學校裡面都有1位校長，校長是由教育人員來擔任的，他會評估當下的戒護安全跟教育課程的安排，他會做評估的，所以我們不會偏重在戒護安全，這是由校長當下判斷……","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:40:00.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:40:03.500000+08:00","text":"我們知道，但是我們也非常清楚裡面的流動率非常高嘛！","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:40:04.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:40:11.787000+08:00","text":"所以我們是不是可以更清楚地用數據去呈現有多少的實作課程因為戒護人力不足，而導致最後只能上理論課？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:40:11.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:40:15.570000+08:00","text":"因為職訓最有趣的地方就是實作課嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:40:15.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:40:16.170000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:40:16.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:40:34.866000+08:00","text":"我們不可能全部都上理論課，一定要有更多的實作課，讓孩子有機會去操作，因為在特教教育上面也會透過一些實作的方式讓孩子可以更穩定，所以如果我們可以有一個更清楚、明確的統計資料，就會知道到底多少因此而受影響？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:40:34.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:40:38.689000+08:00","text":"否則現在都是憑感覺，對不對？是。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:40:38.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:40:40.110000+08:00","text":"這件事情是不是可以做一個盤點呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:40:40.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:40:45.255000+08:00","text":"你們可不可以從現在開始統計受到影響的狀態？好。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:40:45.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:41:19.815000+08:00","text":"第二個問題，我們現在還有一個司法矯正主導跟教育輔導介入之間的專業磨合，也是現場人員告訴我們，矯正人員跟教育人員的教育訓練背景本來就不太一樣，過去我們都是以矯正人員為主，我們現在其實已經納入了很多不管是心輔及特教人員的專業，可是他們沒有共同的職前訓練，也就沒有辦法彼此理解而造成標準不一及一些現場管理的困難。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:41:20.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:41:32.401000+08:00","text":"所以，有沒有可能針對新進的矯正人員提供一個心理發展的專業增能課程？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:41:33.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:41:45.768000+08:00","text":"讓他們在這個制度的設計之下可以彼此了解，才不會變成一般都是扮得非常黑的黑臉來管秩序，然後完全不理解他的心理發展跟創傷，因為大部分的孩子都有一些創傷嘛！","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:41:46.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:41:49.370000+08:00","text":"所以我們是不是可以往這個方向來做？還是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:41:50.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:42:06.543000+08:00","text":"實務上都有這樣在做，每一位新進人員至少每年都會調到署裡面來訓練一次，在現場運作上，校長是教育人員，副校長是我們矯正人員，所以校長和副校長兩個人都會去溝通，以評估當下應該怎麼處置是最好的。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:42:06.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:42:10.106000+08:00","text":"基本上，我們還是以教育先行這樣的目標在推行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:42:10.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:42:35.098000+08:00","text":"好，因為今天所質詢的內容是第一線的回饋，也許我們這邊的理解跟第一線是有存在落差，是不是有可能提供給我們一些資料，就是現在對於矯正人員安排提供不管是心理、特教、職能訓練及增能訓練的數字，到底每一年有多少？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:42:35.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:42:36.399000+08:00","text":"每個學校做多頻繁？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:42:38.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:42:41.468000+08:00","text":"每位矯正人員是上完一次之後就結束了嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:42:41.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:42:42.511000+08:00","text":"還是有持續上課？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:42:43.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:42:44.215000+08:00","text":"這個資料是不是可以提供給我？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:42:44.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:42:46.260000+08:00","text":"好，我再提供詳細資料給委員，謝謝。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:42:46.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:43:06.940000+08:00","text":"再來就是第一線工作者反映他們的工作量非常的大，甚至要分攤非專業背景的政策業務，嚴重的壓縮他們個案輔導的品質，實際上輔導教師可能1個人要對40個人，這要如何去維持品質呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:43:08.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:43:18.164000+08:00","text":"這個部分其實也是蠻需要矯正署協助現場人員的一點，就是他們很在意校內日常處遇如何運作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:43:18.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:43:20.685000+08:00","text":"以及如何共同接住學生？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:43:21.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:43:31.748000+08:00","text":"是不是可以研議一個建立專屬矯正學校的跨領域職前與在職共同研習，以確保我們的矯正人員跟教育人員能夠用同一套語言來溝通？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:43:34.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:43:35.682000+08:00","text":"這個部分是可以的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:43:35.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:43:37.624000+08:00","text":"可以，謝謝委員的指導。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:43:37.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:43:40.167000+08:00","text":"大概什麼時候可以追蹤相關的進度呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘：跟委員報告，其實我們輔導老師的比例","start":"2026-03-18T10:43:44.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:43:46.713000+08:00","text":"最高是1比31、最低是1比14。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘：跟委員報告，其實我們輔導老師的比例","start":"2026-03-18T10:43:47.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:43:52.139000+08:00","text":"所以這4所學校並不會達到1比40這樣的輔導老師比例。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:43:52.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:43:59.522000+08:00","text":"沒關係，因為我們現在是從現場得到的一些回饋，還是說我們再約時間針對這一題再詳細討論，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:43:59.522000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T10:44:01.043000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員的指導。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:44:01.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:44:03.785000+08:00","text":"再來，因為我還有別的題目，就是特教資源。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:44:07.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:44:20.042000+08:00","text":"基本上在2023年我們的特教法修正之後，強調要保障特教學生的學習權益跟合理調整，可是以現在4所矯正學校的障礙生來說，合理調整跟特教支持的落實有明顯地落差。是。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:44:20.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:44:21.923000+08:00","text":"這也是老師們的回饋啦！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:44:23.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:44:27.126000+08:00","text":"矯正學校的特殊教育正在面臨嚴重的鑑定與結構性體制的困境。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:44:27.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:44:51.525000+08:00","text":"因為他們的背景來源其實相當地複雜，不管是入校前中輟，或者是有幫派的文化等等，這就導致他們在入校之後的障礙樣態非常複雜，跟傳統教育體系存在著一個落差，所以我們現在送鑑定的個案常常因為資料難以佐證或是難以排除藥物的影響而被判定為「非特教生」。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:44:52.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:45:04.301000+08:00","text":"也就是說，他因為今天是特教生才能夠得到特教資源，可是他今天被判定為非特教生的時候，就拿不到這些特教資源，所以這是一個問題。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:45:04.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:45:17.711000+08:00","text":"再來，第二個就是特教還有我們非常強調的，就是要依個別化的需求來提供給他針對性的一些支持，可是我們現在在矯正學校常常會強調所謂一致性的管理跟戒護安全。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:45:18.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:45:42.221000+08:00","text":"所以就變成是因為矯正學校的孩子落差非常非常大，樣態也很不一致，現在一般特教體系用的一些教材、教案到了矯正學校也常常不適用，所以我們是不是可以做一個事情，就是邀請鑑定單位及矯正學校的特教老師，共同建立一個更適合矯正學校的鑑定標準，並且常態化地去辦理初任教師的研習跟教材教法的支持，來確保司法端的管教跟專業需求，也就是這個差異化的需求可以達到一個平衡？是。","quality":0.594},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:45:58.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:46:08.927000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，目前我們經過鑑定在案的特教學生總共是146名，我們的特教老師是11名，平均是1比13.2。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:46:10.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:46:19.050000+08:00","text":"目前我們跟國教署雙方是談到1比15這樣的比例，所以我們是符合與國教署所談到的比例，可是未來我們會朝向1比8的比例來邁進。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:46:19.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:46:28.522000+08:00","text":"我想這裡面其實不是比例的問題，當然比例的確是要維持，但是其實特教老師的流動率也非常高，新任的比例也非常高。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:46:29.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:46:35.191000+08:00","text":"再來，今天講的重點其實是孩子沒有辦法被判為特教生。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:46:37.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:46:45.698000+08:00","text":"不過那是一個持續性的鑑別問題，我們有特教老師在那一邊，會訓練我們的特教老師具有鑑別的能力。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:46:46.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:46:52.821000+08:00","text":"如果這個學生智商上已經出現有學習障礙、有情緒障礙等等的，我們會再重新鑑定。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:46:53.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:46:54.461000+08:00","text":"你們多久會評估一次呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:46:55.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:47:03.685000+08:00","text":"這要看那個老師在現場看到的情形，只要發覺他當下有這樣的障礙需要做鑑定的話，那個老師就會做這樣的安排。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:47:04.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:47:07.656000+08:00","text":"好，那這個部分我們是不是也可以約時間來詳細討論呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:47:07.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:47:10.636000+08:00","text":"因為特教的問題也是蠻複雜的啦！好。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:47:12.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:47:24.059000+08:00","text":"最後一點，這個可能要請法務部跟衛福部一起來討論，這些孩子離開學校之後，他如何回歸社會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:47:24.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:47:36.423000+08:00","text":"其實他要回歸社會就是回到他原本的家庭裡面，如果家庭是可以支持的話，他基本上就可以在家庭裡面好好地回歸社會；可是如果在家庭不能支持的狀況之下，他可能就會回到幫派，或者是離開家庭去別的地方，對不對？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:47:36.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:47:37.163000+08:00","text":"像宮廟等都有可能。對。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:47:40.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:47:51.448000+08:00","text":"現在在家庭端，其實我們也都非常清楚地知道，有52%的孩子家庭其實相當不健全，所以這可能就要跟衛福部持續討論，如何去支持讓這些家庭的功能變好？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:47:52.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:47:56.872000+08:00","text":"這樣子才有可能讓這些孩子真正地在家庭裡被支持。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:47:57.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:48:13.025000+08:00","text":"因為我們從一些統計的研究發現，很多家長帶回去後也是繼續地打罵，或者是採用不是非常好的管教方式，所以我們是不是可以跟衛福部……我不曉得現在有沒有一個非常好的機制給家長支持？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:48:15.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:48:16.628000+08:00","text":"這個部分可不可以簡單說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:48:17.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:48:26.477000+08:00","text":"是，跟委員說明一下，其實從學生入校6週內，我們就會跟衛福部的保服司做「逆境少年家庭支持服務方案」，我們就會跟他做聯繫了。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:48:26.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:48:42.591000+08:00","text":"我們希望能給這個少年貫穿式的保護服務，從他入校開始一直到他出校為止，該有的學籍轉銜、就業的媒合，還是他需要什麼社政資源的介入，我們跟衛福部的保服司都在密切地聯絡當中，而且他出校後我們還會再追蹤一年。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:48:43.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:48:51.019000+08:00","text":"但是我想，因為兒少的再犯率相對來說也還是偏高，所以就不曉得這個機制到底運作得如何？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:48:51.019000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T10:48:52.380000+08:00","text":"好，我們繼續檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:48:52.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:48:57.505000+08:00","text":"這個部分是不是也可以就你們現在的運作機制給我一個簡單的說明，好不好？好。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:48:58.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:49:00.848000+08:00","text":"這個應該是在會後就可以提供了吧，對不對？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:49:00.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:49:02.129000+08:00","text":"好，我們再提供詳細資料給委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-18T10:49:02.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-18T10:49:02.909000+08:00","text":"好，我們就再約時間來詳細討論，謝謝。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-03-18T10:49:03.409000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T10:49:04.551857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-18T10:49:04.851857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T10:49:06.280429+08:00","text":"謝謝張委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-18T10:49:06.580429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-18T10:49:10.009000+08:00","text":"接下來請范委員雲發言，謝謝。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}