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11:14:46","會議時間":"2026-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部、原住民族委員會、內政部、教育部、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘部及國家衛生研究院，就「如何精進偏鄉醫療與長照資源落差及落實《原住民族健康法》之困境，並對提升原住民族健康權益及強化原鄉照護量能（含提升機關位階與人力配置）」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月18日及3月19日，二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.207218750000001,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.012843750000002,"end":8.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.058468750000003,"end":13.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.902218750000003,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.404093750000001,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.90909375,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.91721875,"end":31.148468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.35096875,"end":33.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.274718750000005,"end":33.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.034093750000004,"end":35.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.26596875,"end":35.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.99159375,"end":39.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.64909375,"end":64.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.25721875,"end":67.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.66596875,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.85034375000001,"end":77.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.06096875,"end":78.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.16221875000001,"end":78.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.36471875000001,"end":79.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.57971875,"end":80.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.55846875,"end":82.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.08159375000001,"end":81.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.42284375,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.76409375,"end":88.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.37971875000001,"end":90.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.46409375,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.03784375000001,"end":115.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.64159375000001,"end":120.26534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.99096875000001,"end":122.83034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.38721875,"end":133.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.85409375,"end":137.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.83284375,"end":151.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.16346875000002,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.32346875000002,"end":153.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.82971875,"end":207.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.62721875000003,"end":227.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.32159375,"end":219.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.53971875000002,"end":241.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.29284375,"end":244.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.49534375000002,"end":241.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.00534375,"end":245.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.03909375,"end":245.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.91659375,"end":245.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.95034375,"end":246.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.65909375,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.52971875000003,"end":293.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.12721875,"end":275.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.90909375,"end":295.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.49534375,"end":307.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.40909375,"end":309.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.63659375000003,"end":312.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.19721875000005,"end":319.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.64409375,"end":316.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.42846875000004,"end":327.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.57159375000003,"end":322.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.88346875,"end":323.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.76034375,"end":338.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.34971875,"end":336.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.12159375000005,"end":342.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.44221875,"end":339.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.48409375,"end":357.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.34846875,"end":344.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.76034375,"end":356.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.97096875,"end":359.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.06784375,"end":364.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.90221875000003,"end":367.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.19721875000005,"end":386.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.60346875000005,"end":3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我們有請部長有請施部長部長好 部長今年2026年 請問你的住宿機構你的那個入住率要達到百分之多少入住率"},{"start":27.194,"end":37.486,"text":"您的意思是說 因為目前是還有一些空間嘛對 現在是84 你今年你的報告裡面長照3.0 你說2026要提高啊"},{"start":41.781,"end":66.741,"text":"應該是說我們會繼續去擴充那個量能因為雖然現在看起來沒有滿但是有些區域上還是有不足啦所以我們還是會去繼續的鼓勵把那個住宿式長照機構希望要在不足的地方還是要再增加起來所以不會是用入住率因為那個會再增加那這個入住率指的就是住宿式機構啦"},{"start":67.722,"end":74.328,"text":"那你們住宿機構的使用率你們報告提到2026短期目標87%你不是這樣寫嗎應該是嘛我們報告沒有寫這個報告沒有寫這個你們2026沒有目標"},{"start":84.434,"end":113.171,"text":"沒有特別去說入住率是多少定這種目標是因為我們還會再長資源好我今天要跟你討論的就是我們現在高齡人口越來越多失能人口越來越多但是我看到一個就是我們現在住宿機構你現在看到的入住率現在是84%但是這些的空缺他不是真的他想要空下來而是因為在他的這個照護筆底下呢照護"},{"start":113.971,"end":122.402,"text":"人員不足然後所導致的這個床位被迫封床這個現象你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":124.251,"end":152.207,"text":"我們如果是以整體啦因為這個整體跟區域是不一樣就是有些地方是有床可是有床沒有人的現象我要講的是這個這個現象你們看到了嗎那所以我們才會讓這個住宿式機構也可以開放那個這個移工移工來協助按照一定的比例上去可以聘移工來補足這個人力上不足但是這三年來"},{"start":153.328,"end":167.64,"text":"他流失的這些造福人員在機構裡面高達3427人我要跟你討論的就是那難道我們本土的這一些長照機構人力的流失不需要去改善嗎"},{"start":168.26,"end":178.003,"text":"就是只能用移工來補足然後不去探究為什麼這些人要離開機構沒有辦法長期待在機構裡面這個問題你們有去檢討嗎要怎麼改善在你的長照3.0裡面有沒有針對這一些照服員包括他的待遇跟勞動條件你要做什麼樣的一個調整怎麼樣留住人在現場因為如果按照這樣的一個流失的速度的話"},{"start":197.19,"end":220.467,"text":"那這個是一個危機變成是有一些住宿機構有床也沒有人沒有人其實你就不能再招收新的這些受照顧者跟委員說明這個確實這個會流動因為我們在長照體系裡面有一些會流到居家有些流到社區甚至有些流到醫院所以它會流動"},{"start":221.929,"end":239.849,"text":"但是我們還是希望能夠久任,所以我們去年開始吧,有在增加112年開始有給他們這個進階的造福源給他每月的津貼5000元來鼓勵他留任連續4年這樣"},{"start":241.371,"end":263.353,"text":"但是2025年它還是持續下降中,有沒有發揮效果?我想整個的長照人力是增加啦,整個overall的人力是增加,當然在住宿式機構有這些流失,不過也有在挹注在進來,我想我們會持續的去注意到這個人力的變動。"},{"start":264.594,"end":293.248,"text":"你可以看到下一張圖你看到的是我們現在本土的人力在下降那增加的是什麼增加的是移工的人數也就是我們現在住宿機構裡面其實是高度仰賴移工來補足人力的缺口但是在這樣子下去這是一個好的方向嗎就是說我們過去不是在講說我們本土應該要建構屬於自己本土的照服員的人力嗎這個才是本"},{"start":293.968,"end":304.658,"text":"但是這一塊本我覺得都在流失當中而在當中的這個問題你們應該好好去探究因為包括你們的訓練你們趙福遠的訓練我看到的數字你們2025年的訓練人數是不是6506人"},{"start":313.741,"end":317.146,"text":"跟委員說明確實人力是一個很大的挑戰2024年是7259人2025年又下降連前面的職選訓練的人數都在減少這是個危機"},{"start":328.843,"end":353.128,"text":"我們也看到這個危機啦因為確實是整個台灣的工作勞力人口在下降是整個的下降各行各業都下降但是偏偏未來長照這邊需要的人口的力是在增加對 需求是要增加的所以這個是非常大的挑戰所以除了靠這個外籍移工之外我們也在想辦法智能化的照顧要導入啦"},{"start":354.848,"end":365.824,"text":"有嗎 你現在有跟上智能化有什麼新的方案3.0裡面就特別要補助他們去用一些更多的科技我們現在AI發展還是緩慢的還有其他的科技的像這個自動"},{"start":371.852,"end":384.764,"text":"智慧化的監測還有資料的monitor等等這些都想辦法在還有它的管理等等把它導入進來就是希望去share掉一些人力的負荷當然這個"},{"start":387.306,"end":411.72,"text":"我要求你們應該要有一個完整的針對長照的人力你要怎麼樣去補足你要有一套完整的計畫包括你剛剛講如果要引用一些智能輔具甚至未來AI整個的運用我都贊成但是要務實你要看到這個人力缺口的現象要不然我看到你們唯一的解方就是大量進口外籍移工"},{"start":412.216,"end":428.49,"text":"用移工來補足所有的缺口這個就是解方但是不是只有這樣子我覺得本土的如果我們希望讓這些造福源就是人數可以穩定隨著我們要照顧的人口可以穩定成長的話顯然你之前提出來的這一些獎勵方案"},{"start":429.891,"end":435.157,"text":"誘因都還不足所以我希望你們是不是可以一個月之內你們提一個檢討報告針對本土造福人力流失你要怎麼樣去提高從前端的訓練到他的福利到他的薪資到他的職場環境我覺得你們該是到了一個整個好好的去"},{"start":450.395,"end":473.23,"text":"檢討了那該是國家資源應該要挹注的我覺得就是要強力挹注啊因為這個是未來的問題我們現在已經遇到了那你如果這一塊你不及早去因應跟補足的話你將來都仰賴外籍移工但是外籍移工萬一他沒有辦法如期的進那麼多的時候我們就連照顧都會出問題好不好你一個月之內提一個檢討報告出來好不好"},{"start":475.151,"end":488.268,"text":"應該要怎麼做我覺得你要有一個更大的戰略來看待這件事情不是且戰且走應該好好的找專家學者來把這件事情好好的提出一個解方可不可以這個給我們長一點時間因為這個不簡單三個月不簡單的問題但是也要快了好不好"},{"start":494.455,"end":498.538,"text":"那另外一個今天謝謝昭緯安排這個議題這個長昭資源的失衡我覺得中央應該要看見你們在長昭3.0有提出一個構想說十分鐘的生活圈這個口號這個喊得很響亮但是我不知道你們沒有好好去真的走入天下"},{"start":517.15,"end":545.122,"text":"看到偏鄉他從一個村到那個村的距離到底有多麼的遙遠今天我們召委排這個議題我想他看到了這個原鄉有這樣的問題那我就具體指出來嘉義縣的阿里山鄉他也是原鄉地區那你看到這個地圖你們說這個涵蓋率有達到破百了百分之一百一十五聽起來都很好聽但是你看他的資源分布"},{"start":545.922,"end":568.148,"text":"它比較密集的地方都是在一些人口比較多的鄉鎮但是你看到右手邊這個阿里山鄉這個阿里山鄉你看起來就是稀稀落落範圍這麼的廣大但是不可能是你們喊出來的10分鐘的生活圈這是天方夜譚不可能的事那所以針對這樣子的一個地區我問兩個問題第一個就是"},{"start":573.829,"end":576.071,"text":"你們說10分鐘開車的距離第一個問題是10分鐘開車的距離請問車子誰開老人家自己開嗎現在交通部針對高齡長者開車他們現在是很審慎的就是不鼓勵"},{"start":592.023,"end":617.825,"text":"就是要加強管制那你這些對象都是高齡者我就問你要自己開嗎如果不是自己開你現在的3.0有針對交通問題有增加車輛嗎就是這種接受嗎我到ABC的據點我這些交通車我的量能你有提高嗎我在偏鄉地區看到的就是交通是一個很大的問題"},{"start":618.866,"end":632.852,"text":"你的服務你沒辦法到家你是用定點定點又遙遠又是山路然後你要老人家自己開那麼遠的山路然後來到這個定點然後提供服務交通真的是一個很大的問題你們3.0解決了什麼好"},{"start":636.921,"end":651.128,"text":"當然這個不可能我們到處都是10分鐘啦我們必須去誠實的去面對在地理上的障礙所以像這個山地鄉當然就是一個很困難的地理障礙"},{"start":652.088,"end":670.684,"text":"但是如何讓他能夠在地得到服務這個是方法啦所以除了交通接送到某些地方之外我們也在思考那麼一直在目前這個規劃中的共生宅讓他能夠在地就是他不具有經濟規模啦這個地方的人真的少"},{"start":672.105,"end":698.058,"text":"沒有辦法我們剛剛說的涵蓋率是用overall的數字去說服務的人數跟capacity這樣算出來可是這個地方就是長不出來因為他的那個住宿司機都出不來所以才會我們現在也在希望在這些地方有一些這個社區自發性也叫做共生宅我們現在在規劃中那你預計什麼時候要實施這個年底前就會開始試辦我們現在在密集的討論預計從哪邊開始試辦"},{"start":700.139,"end":722.629,"text":"會在支援比較缺乏的地方我們考慮的兩個方向一個就是重症兒童因為重症兒童現在我們的住宿司機構比較不好收因為這個都是混不太可能專門是為了這個兒童的這個住宿司機構嘛所以轉換因為他人數又比較少所以轉換成用共生宅來試辦這是一種"},{"start":724.85,"end":746.46,"text":"另外一種就是資源不足的地方他就長不出資源了那我們用另外一種方式來新的一種家的方式來來提供這個對你講的這是另外一個但是我剛問的交通你沒有回答你有沒有去提到這個交通我們有那個這個交通接送啊你現在的量能都不夠啊"},{"start":748.231,"end":775.642,"text":"你現在量差很多現在其實都好像在搶門票一樣我們現在是做多元的方式也有計程車的也有這個我希望你們可以好好去研議你們的這個交通的量能應該也可以提供另外一種叫做自助的就是社區自助的只要這裡面有人有駕照他的過去駕駛能力是好的然後他不用具備有計程車的資格就是說等於是自助系統裡面就是互助啦對"},{"start":777.443,"end":792.56,"text":"他願意擔任志工有點像Uber啦對 有點像是但是他是以可以就是如果這個老人定期要去這一些長照的服務機構的話我們來研究一下就是在我們那個平台上面有一種就是像委員講的是類似像Uber一樣"},{"start":796.364,"end":816.193,"text":"對 因為很多計程車司機也沒有辦法到那麼偏鄉的地方他要做他自己的生意但是這裡面如果有人其實是有優越的駕駛的能力他不見得拿到計程車的牌照但是用一種互助的方式他可以彼此之間就是形成一個互助系統然後他也有責任 就是他去接受"},{"start":816.593,"end":838.318,"text":"他沒有辦法開車的老人到這個據點來或者是來接受你ABC據點都可以這種我認為你們也要認真去考慮偏鄉沒有計程車啦那麼高的山上 跟你說一台都沒有啦不可能啦在那邊沒有辦法跑就類似像我們來開個Uber一樣嘛他來登記嘛那這個平台上可以叫這些我們來評估"},{"start":840.578,"end":856.659,"text":"我覺得交通量能事你這種偏鄉地方不要去講什麼十分鐘啦他有車子可以出門就已經是覺得很幸福了因為沒有辦法帶他出門老人就像沒有腳一樣所以這個部分我希望你們可以跟"},{"start":857.68,"end":873.139,"text":"我不知道你們是不是要跟交通部研議要啦 我們要找交通部討論對 在一些特定的偏遠地方的區域在安全的原則底下不是普及性的啦就是對一些有缺口的地方對 好不好你也通盤去檢討那這個一樣你一個月可以給一個"},{"start":877.083,"end":887.231,"text":"提出一個這個很複雜因為這個還涉及到交通部的法規那你也要三個月嗎三個月三個月那就要兩個報告一個是人力的一個是交通解決的方案好不好好謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝王彥明委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}