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有請劉秘書長請劉秘書長"},{"start":14.324,"end":35.068,"text":"我今天還是想跟您討論公務員的考機問題剛剛秘書長您也提到了在報告中提到然後程序部的施部長也有提到考機的部分現在你們在積極在研擬一些修法我想先請教秘書長秘書長你目前的工作你有負責打考試院同仁的考機嗎"},{"start":38.336,"end":54.871,"text":"考試院首長是院長但是考記的部分我自己有你有在打考記我想請教你你認為打考記是個容易的工作還是不容易的工作對主管來說它也是相當困擾的工作為什麼是困擾呢"},{"start":55.848,"end":70.601,"text":"我想最主要烤雞的等地必須讓同仁信服那我們陳時中現在制度面上面烤雞現在加一等的比例分佈這個設計它有一個歷史的演變但是這個演變其實在衡量上面並不是很合理有它爭議之處"},{"start":72.746,"end":96.389,"text":"秘書長我想請教你 請問一等到底是好還是不好一等應該基本上是說他也是被肯定所以他才會有獎金只是說我們這個甲跟乙的區別讓大家一等的同仁會覺得好像沒有被肯定最主要是因為甲等比一等多那麼多所以一等的同仁當然會覺得好像沒有被肯定不過基本上他都是稱職 合於預期的表現"},{"start":97.53,"end":105.393,"text":"秘書長你當然這樣談說一等您覺得是肯定啦所以才有獎金啊但是我們都說是很像鴨子嘛一等就是好像我得了鴨子的這個烤雞啦所以您認為一等是正面的就是在你們定義上是這樣子"},{"start":114.796,"end":136.676,"text":"定義上是 但是他這個制度大家覺得比較不合理就是說假等 四分之三的人是假等 四分之一的人是已等這個劃分 我們覺得需要檢討所以才會要去推動考據法的修正秘書長您說基本上已等就算是正面了但是最近有一則新聞台中地檢署在上個月被爆出"},{"start":137.918,"end":155.548,"text":"他將判決確定的這個詐欺犯 忘記執行長達五年 忘記執行 這個重大疏失吧 這是重大疏失那監察院被監察院糾正 結果地檢署他對承辦人員祭出的懲處竟然是烤雞打魚的"},{"start":156.768,"end":175.626,"text":"這麼重大的疏失他是烤雞打疑等這件事讓基層公務員在網路上炸鍋一片罵聲這件事的反應跟剛剛秘書長您談的疑等基本上是正面的這麼重大的疏失他也是被打疑等這這麼大的新聞秘書長你認為這基層公務員你知道他們為什麼那麼生氣嗎"},{"start":182.813,"end":195.526,"text":"你說就這個案子還是對啊 全部炸光啊因為這個新聞下面全部都是基層公務員一片罵聲啊他犯了這麼大的錯但是他考積已等嘛跟很多人一樣嘛"},{"start":197.951,"end":217.856,"text":"其實就烤雞法來講 針對表現有重大疏失的同仁其實也有別的處理方式 能夠真正的產生警惕所以我想我可以理解 大家對這個案子絕對會覺得非常的爭議那這個主管其實運用烤雞法民主黨那這個是你們職權所及嗎"},{"start":220.237,"end":236.993,"text":"呃 這個不是我們職權好 但是我就是讓大家了解齁你選我們來看一些數字好嗎齁請你看這個統計資料這是全序部最新的公開資料喔齁那我們都知道一般的行政公務員他分成委任 建任 檢任三個官等齁那我們先看甲等的部分甲等的這個"},{"start":238.234,"end":242.455,"text":"比例你看從這個不同的關等你看減刃是96% 減刃是81% 委刃是71%我們再來看移等我們也是從減刃他只有3.9%"},{"start":253.639,"end":260.085,"text":"建任是18% 委任是將近三成 28.8%那這個統計清楚呈現了我們純粹從這個統計來看官等越高 考積越好秘書長認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":269.79,"end":292.632,"text":"會有這個原因喔我先整體講一下就是說這些抱怨 您剛剛講了 異等同仁 覺得不公平還有大家認為烤雞關等之間的分佈不一致這些問題 意見我們都聽到那我們想要去全盤修正烤雞法其實也就是因為大家有這麼多的反應跟不平那至於以前為什麼會有這個現象"},{"start":296.035,"end":316.78,"text":"我想首長在打烤雞的時候大概也會考慮到每一個人的職責的沉重程度跟他的貢獻所以他就會出現像您講的這個結果但是當然烤雞還是要針對同人就同官等之間的比較這個也很重要不能忽視烤雞法第九條您清楚嘛第九是什麼您知道嗎就是"},{"start":318.52,"end":329.404,"text":"還有明定 因為你談到同官等的考積是比較範圍但實際上有沒有落實 李子密說你大概看到這些數字你心裡就有數那對基層公務員來說 這個形同虛設第九條形同虛設 現實上就是距離機關所長越靠近的"},{"start":336.367,"end":356.324,"text":"這個比較近的檢任官相對最容易拿到假等那基層的相對比較距離比較遠的檢任跟這個鑑認跟委任那那個疑等比率就大幅提升嘛那我想新進的菜鳥基本上就是疑等嘛所以過去這個做法相信對員工的是否是真正公平的這個評價這個很難讓人家取信吧畢竟說你同意嘛你根本覺得有不合理之處吧"},{"start":360.767,"end":377.096,"text":"你同意嗎 因為這個我們看到的結果我們就這個結果來評論好 那現在就是除了甲乙等之外我們來看一下那個兵鼎等我們知道他是用來檢討跟汰除不適任的這個公務員但是也是等於沒作用 無論哪個官等其實他都小於這個"},{"start":378.297,"end":401.953,"text":"百分之一啦所以說或是小於0.1所以說公務員是鐵飯碗但是偶爾就會有生鏽的鐵飯碗嘛那有時候還是因為每個機關都有事還有事一旦生鏽當然就不能夠不易使用嘛那每年不適任的公務員真的不到百分之一嗎我們在講 講成我們當中就是做一個平衡的來討論明師長你認為目前的烤雞制度真的能夠達到這個獎優太烈的一個目的嗎目前"},{"start":408.757,"end":432.065,"text":"真的有需要汰除的呢其實工具也是有的只是說機關文化上敢不敢下手那但是另外一方面我們也不會去否定說認為說公務員裡面一定有幾%是應該每年要汰除的因為過去曾經有這樣的討論那也引起大家很大的抱怨所以就這個部分我想應該是依照實際的狀況如果真的有表現不佳應該要處理的要處理"},{"start":432.925,"end":446.236,"text":"秘書長這幾天有一篇新聞麻煩你看一下存續部有提到要啟動修法那就是公務員這個考積甲等比率你取消上限我先請問秘書長現行的考積法有規定那個甲等比率上限嗎"},{"start":447.279,"end":457.763,"text":"現在的法律沒有規定沒有嘛沒有嘛那事實上沒有規定這個上限喔那你所謂的假等不能夠超過75%只是一個潛規則啊潛規則用這麼久那既然這個75不是不是一直都75不是法律嘛它最早大概是應該是三分之一後來變成二分之一後來變成沒有上限後來又變回50為原則75為上限但是法律沒有這一條嘛"},{"start":472.768,"end":489.005,"text":"那沒有既然是前規則你又怎麼透過修法來改呢因為這個標題寫說公務員這個循序部說公務員考積加成比率的這個取消上限我們會設計簡單講我們看各國的考積制度其實應該是蔣優泰烈中間大多數都是認真"},{"start":490.246,"end":510.336,"text":"符合預期的同仁他應該得到相對的肯定但是我們現在那條線不應該是切在75%這個地方那這個長期演變下來的部分讓大家很困擾所以這一次修法等一下我要稍微了解你這次修法的方向這一次我們會去把那個等地做一個新的設計我想請教一下考積法多久沒有修了"},{"start":511.076,"end":523.342,"text":"這樣停滯多久幾十年 請問是多久我想了解一下像我們去年才修過一小條但是這個制度的部分有多久沒有修了很久了部長 多久20年對不起"},{"start":526.744,"end":542.112,"text":"如果整個制度來講就76年建立的但是後來有修正個別的條文我們講一個法律有一個大的架構它裡面有一些細節細節都不斷在修但是如果是大的架構"},{"start":543.132,"end":561.42,"text":"基本上就是維持76年40年沒有修啦一定沒有辦法我都稱為不只這個領域年久失修啦這個都非常重要包括將來我們司法這個組也會看到的人工生殖法二三十年沒有修所以我想請教這個目前謝謝請回那修法是現在已經完成送立法院或是說你們的進度剛剛是說在進行中嘛那我很重要的一個議題就是說問題就是說有讓基層參與嗎"},{"start":571.385,"end":592.23,"text":"你有讓基層公務員參與嗎剛剛部長在報告的時候他在線上等等這個只是邀請是被動式的參與但是法案公告大家就可以表示意見第二個他會我們會有一個問卷線上的那個問卷有嗎有收到基層公務員的意見表達嗎有嗎現在還沒有正要開始進行那我覺得你們應該主動找這個基層公務員團體來開會討論修法"},{"start":599.165,"end":613.798,"text":"就說基層公務員的團體參與要很實質的加入總不能永遠是上層的反正得到考機都是假等的人在討論怎麼來修法您同意嗎?您接受這個建議嗎?"},{"start":615.328,"end":622.153,"text":"這個全局部一定會廣泛徵詢大家的意見我要提醒這個考機法不能閉門召聚來修法如果沒有廣大基層的意見未來還是行不通或形同虛設我剛剛已經告訴你為什麼形同虛設最後秘書長我想跟您討論這個警消組工會過去有很多警消兄弟因公殉職他們面對的不是只有危險的工作環境還有這個"},{"start":636.786,"end":652.933,"text":"其實不太合理的一個這個勤務制度跟績效制度所以希望能夠組工會來保障自己的權益但是這個部分考試院是反對的喔只願意修這個協會法那我想請問秘書長為什麼你們會反對這個警消組工會我想知道原因"},{"start":655.441,"end":669.737,"text":"警校主任會這個議題有各種意見那考試院會是協會法的主管機關不是公會法的主管機關那已經有協會法了那你擔心什麼考試院擔心什麼呢我們當然從我們的角度因為我們主管協會法我們當然會從檢討協會法來著手所以這就是我們為什麼兩度送出協會法"},{"start":674.962,"end":690.891,"text":"如果你們擔心罷工的問題那你就比照那個教師組工會就好啦你們可以有配套措施在勞資正義處理法當中就明定禁止罷工不就可以了嗎你知道所有醫療院所都有工會耶醫療院所都有了你們怕什麼 擔心什麼呢"},{"start":691.731,"end":697.255,"text":"這個議題應該是說我覺得社會要有共識啦所以就它是一個我們只要謹慎面對的議題我覺得官員在談談社會共識請問天下什麼事有社會共識呢對不對這個請教這個共識到什麼程度呢基層請教不買單你們的協會法但是畢竟你們這是你們法案那我再請教2024年9月你們已經把這個法案送到這個立法院來請問你有去推動嗎"},{"start":716.448,"end":732.128,"text":"你們這一年來你們有拜託召委排案嗎你有去做這個動作嗎還是說交代交差了事我記得我去年在這邊做業務報告的時候我們就講我們現在在立法院的法案就是協會法所以也請既然送交了就應該去推動嘛"},{"start":733.53,"end":761.294,"text":"之前胃環委員會有排審過那個工會法開放警消組工會喔因為我就在那個但是那個主席才是因為當時民進黨立委意見很多主席才是什麼 召委才是說等考試院的協會法出來我們再一起說再一起討論可是你們現在似乎也沒有積極推動那你乾脆就支持工會法去年胃環委員會要求我們兩個月內提法案所以我們就在兩個月之內把法案送到立法院來了"},{"start":761.934,"end":770.362,"text":"那我去年在法治委員會也有報告說不是只有送案啦如果你們覺得重要應該積極處理啦這個法案的排審我們就尊重委員會秘書長我的重點就是一個請你們要邀請這個而且要就是讓他們實質能夠基層公務員團體能夠實質參與討論啦這個攸關他們自己的考核現在的協會法現在的草案真的擴大很多的那個權限好謝謝秘書長謝謝主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:15:39.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:15:41.150000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請劉秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T09:15:41.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:15:41.170000+08:00","text":"請劉秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:15:41.170000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T09:15:45.247000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:15:45.247000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T09:15:49.324000+08:00","text":"秘書長早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:15:49.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:16:10.068000+08:00","text":"我今天還是想跟您討論公務員的考績問題，剛剛秘書長您在報告中提到了，然後銓敘部的施部長也有提到考績的部分，現在你們在積極研擬一些修法，我想先請教秘書長，秘書長，你目前的工作，你有負責打考試院同仁的考績嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:16:13.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:16:19.261000+08:00","text":"考試院首長是院長，但是考績的部分我自己有……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:16:19.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:16:20.663000+08:00","text":"你自己本身有在打考績？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:16:20.663000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T09:16:21.663000+08:00","text":"我有參與到那個程序。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:16:21.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:16:24.807000+08:00","text":"我想請教你，你認為打考績是個容易的工作，還是不容易的工作？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:16:25.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:16:29.071000+08:00","text":"對主管來說，它也是相當困擾的工作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:16:29.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:16:29.851000+08:00","text":"為什麼是困擾呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:16:30.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:16:45.601000+08:00","text":"我想最主要考績的等第必須讓同仁信服，在現在制度面上面，考績現在甲乙等比例分布的設計，它有一個歷史的演變，但是這個演變其實在衡量上面並不是很合理，有它爭議之處。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:16:47.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:16:51.790000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我想請教你，請問乙等到底是好還是不好？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:16:52.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:17:11.389000+08:00","text":"乙等應該基本上是說他也是被肯定，所以他才會有獎金，只是這個甲跟乙的區別，讓乙等的同仁會覺得好像沒有被肯定，最主要是因為甲等比乙等多那麼多，所以乙等的同仁當然會覺得好像沒有被肯定，不過基本上他都是稱職，合於預期的表現，只是……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:17:12.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:17:17.192000+08:00","text":"秘書長，你當然這樣說，您覺得乙等是肯定的，所以才有獎金，但是……","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:17:17.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T09:17:18.192000+08:00","text":"制度上的原意是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:17:18.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:17:20.373000+08:00","text":"但是我們都說是很像鴨子嘛，乙等就是好像我得了鴨級的考績啦，所以您認為乙等是正面的，就是在你們定義上是這樣？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:17:29.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:17:43.469000+08:00","text":"定義上是，但是這個制度大家覺得比較不合理，就是說四分之三的人是甲等，四分之一的人是乙等，這個劃分我們覺得需要檢討，所以才會要去推動考績法的修正。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:17:43.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:18:02.143000+08:00","text":"秘書長，您說基本上乙等算是正面，但是最近有一則新聞，臺中地檢署在上個月被爆出將判決確定的詐欺犯忘記執行，長達5年，忘記去執行，這個是重大疏失吧？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:18:02.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:18:30.626000+08:00","text":"這是重大疏失，被監察院糾正了，結果地檢署對承辦人員祭出的懲處，竟然是考績打乙等，這麼重大的疏失，他是考績打乙等，這件事讓基層公務員在網路上炸鍋，一片罵聲，這件事的反應，跟剛剛秘書長您談的，說乙等基本上是正面的，但是這麼重大的疏失，他也是被打乙等，那麼大的新聞，秘書長，你認為基層公務員為什麼那麼生氣嗎？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:18:37.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:18:38.854000+08:00","text":"你說就這個案子，還是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:18:38.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:18:50.506000+08:00","text":"對啊，全部炸鍋啊，因為這個新聞下面全部都是基層公務員一片罵聲，他犯了這麼大的錯，但是他考績乙等，跟很多人一樣嘛。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:18:52.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:19:09.975000+08:00","text":"其實就考績法來講，針對表現有重大疏失的同仁，其實也有別的處理方式能夠真正的產生警惕，所以我想我可以理解大家針對這個案子，絕對會覺得非常的爭議。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:19:10.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:19:12.015000+08:00","text":"這個主管，其實運用考績法是可以……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:19:12.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:19:12.856000+08:00","text":"秘書長，這個是你們職權所及嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:19:15.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:19:16.218000+08:00","text":"這個不是我們的職權。不是？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:19:16.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:19:17.759000+08:00","text":"好，但是我就是讓大家了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:19:18.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:19:36.915000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我們來看一些數字，請你看這個統計資料，這是銓敘部最新的公開資料，我們都知道一般的行政公務員分成委任、薦任、簡任三個官等，我們先看甲等的部分，甲等的比率，你看從不同的官等，簡任是96%，薦任是81%，委任是71%。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:19:36.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:19:55.085000+08:00","text":"我們再來看乙等的部分，簡任只有3.9%，薦任是18%，委任是將近三成喔，28.8%，這個統計清楚呈現，我們就純粹從這個統計來看，官等越高，考績越好，秘書長認為這樣合理嗎？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:20:04.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:20:26.031000+08:00","text":"會有這個原因，委員，我還是先整體講一下，您剛剛講的這些抱怨，包括乙等同仁覺得不公平，還有大家認為考績在官等之間的分布不一致，這些意見我們都聽到了，我們想要去全盤修正考績法，其實也就是因為大家有這麼多的反映跟不平。","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:20:26.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:20:27.612000+08:00","text":"至於以前為什麼會有這個現象？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:20:31.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:20:40.357000+08:00","text":"我想首長在打考績的時候，大概也會考慮到每一個人的職責承重程度跟他的貢獻，所以就會出現像您講的這個結果。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:20:40.357000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T09:20:41.357000+08:00","text":"不過，秘書長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:20:40.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:20:47.919000+08:00","text":"但是當然考績還是要針對同仁，就是同官等之間的比較也很重要，不容忽視。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:20:47.919000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T09:20:50.079000+08:00","text":"對，我正要問你，您清楚考績法第九條嘛？是。","quality":0.294},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:20:50.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:20:51.620000+08:00","text":"第九條是什麼，您知道嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:20:53.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:20:59.983000+08:00","text":"它有明定，就是您談到的，「應以同官等為考績之比較範圍」，但實際上有沒有落實？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:21:01.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:21:23.577000+08:00","text":"秘書長看到這些數字，大概心裡就有數了，對基層公務員來說，第九條形同虛設，現實上就是距離機關首長越靠近的、比較近的簡任官相對容易拿到甲等，而基層那些相對距離比較遠的薦任跟委任，乙等比例就會大幅提升，至於新進的菜鳥，基本上就是乙等。","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:21:24.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:21:29.382000+08:00","text":"所以過去這個做法對員工是否是真正公平的評價，是很難取信於人。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:21:30.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:21:30.943000+08:00","text":"秘書長同意嘛？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:21:31.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:21:31.304000+08:00","text":"你剛才也覺得有不合理之處。是。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:21:35.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:21:36.087000+08:00","text":"你同意嘛？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:21:36.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:21:38.629000+08:00","text":"因為我們看到這樣的結果，我們就用這個結果來評論。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:21:40.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:22:11.809000+08:00","text":"現在除了甲、乙等之外，我們來看一下丙、丁等，我們知道它是用來檢討跟汰除不適任的公務員，但也是等於沒作用，無論哪個官等，其實它都小於百分之一或是小於零點一，雖然說公務員是鐵飯碗，但是偶爾也會有生鏽的鐵飯碗，因為每個機關都有，一旦生鏽，當然就不易使用，然而每年不適任的公務員真的不到百分之一嗎？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:22:11.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:22:14.972000+08:00","text":"既然我們在講獎懲，就是在當中做一個平衡的討論。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:22:15.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:22:16.753000+08:00","text":"秘書長，你認為目前的考績制度真的能夠達到獎優汰劣的目的嗎？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:22:23.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:22:47.045000+08:00","text":"真的有需要汰除的，其實工具也是有的，只是機關文化上敢不敢下手，但是另外一方面，我們也不會去否定公務員，認為公務員裡面一定有百分之幾是每年要汰除的，因為過去曾經有這樣的討論，也引起大家很大的抱怨，所以就這個部分，應該是照實際的狀況，如果真的有表現不佳、應該要處理的，就要處理。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:22:47.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:22:56.753000+08:00","text":"秘書長，這幾天有一篇新聞，麻煩你看一下，銓敘部有提到要啟動修法，公務員考績甲等比率擬取消上限。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:22:57.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:01.236000+08:00","text":"我先請問秘書長，現行的考績法有規定甲等比率上限嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:02.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:03.219000+08:00","text":"現在的法律沒有規定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:03.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:03.660000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:04.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:09.161000+08:00","text":"事實上沒有規定上限，你所謂的甲等不能夠超過75%只是一個潛規則，潛規則用這麼久啊！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:09.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:09.922000+08:00","text":"這個75%不是一直都75%……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:09.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:10.222000+08:00","text":"不是法律嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:10.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:12.283000+08:00","text":"最早應該是三分之一，後來變成二分之一，後來變成沒有上限，後來又變回50%為原則，75%為上限。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:12.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:12.743000+08:00","text":"但是法律沒有這一條嘛！是。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:28.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:30.811000+08:00","text":"既然是潛規則，你要怎麼透過修法來改呢？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:30.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:36.798000+08:00","text":"因為這個標題寫說，銓敘部說公務員考績甲等比率擬取消上限。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:37.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:55.511000+08:00","text":"我們會設計，簡單講，我們看各國的考績制度，其實應該是獎優汰劣，中間大多數都是認真、符合預期的同仁，他應該得到相對的肯定，所以那條線不應該是切在75%這個地方，這個長期演變下來讓大家很困擾，這也是為什麼我們這次一定要去修……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:55.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:23:58.933000+08:00","text":"所以這一次修法，等一下我要稍微了解你這次修法的方向。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:23:59.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:03.175000+08:00","text":"是，這一次我們會去把等第做一個新的設計，然後再來跟大家交換意見。","quality":0.552},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:03.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:06.576000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，考績法多久沒有修了，這樣停滯多久？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:06.576000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:08.177000+08:00","text":"這個我請……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:08.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:08.337000+08:00","text":"幾十年？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:08.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:09.318000+08:00","text":"請問是多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:09.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:10.298000+08:00","text":"我想了解一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:10.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:14.260000+08:00","text":"考績法有很多條文，像我們去年才修過一小條，但是這個制度的部分……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:14.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:16.041000+08:00","text":"主要的，有多久沒有修了？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:16.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:16.822000+08:00","text":"很久了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:17.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:18.162000+08:00","text":"部長，多久？20年？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:21.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:23.865000+08:00","text":"如果整個制度來講，是76年建立的。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:24.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:24.545000+08:00","text":"76年建立的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:24.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:31.569000+08:00","text":"但是後來有修正個別的條文，我們講法律有一個大的架構……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:31.569000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:32.569000+08:00","text":"我知道，要實質的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:32.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:40.353000+08:00","text":"裡面有一些細節，細節都不斷在修，但是如果是指大的架構，基本上就維持76年的版本。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:40.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:52.259000+08:00","text":"這樣40年沒有修，一定沒有辦法，這個我就稱為年久失修，其實不止這個領域，這個都非常重要，包括將來也會看到的人工生殖法也是2、30年沒有修。","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:53.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:53.519000+08:00","text":"謝謝，請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:53.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:54.179000+08:00","text":"現在修法是已經完成送立法院了嗎？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:24:54.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:24:56.420000+08:00","text":"你剛剛是說你們的進度在進行中，我有一個很重要的問題是，有讓基層參與嗎？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:25:06.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:25:09.306000+08:00","text":"你有讓基層公務員參與嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:25:09.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:25:10.346000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長在報告的時候有講……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:25:10.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:25:15.948000+08:00","text":"他說是在線上等等，這個只是被動式的參與。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:25:15.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:25:21.989000+08:00","text":"但是法案公告了，大家就可以表示意見，第二個，我們會有一個線上的問卷。有嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:25:21.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:25:23.990000+08:00","text":"有收到基層公務員的意見表達嗎？有嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:25:23.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:25:25.950000+08:00","text":"現在正要開始進行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:25:26.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:25:47.517000+08:00","text":"還沒，我覺得你們應該主動找基層公務員的團體來開會討論修法，就是說，基層公務員的團體參與要很實質的加入，總不能永遠是上層的、都是考績甲等的人在討論怎麼來修法，您同意嗎？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:25:47.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:25:48.798000+08:00","text":"您接受這個建議嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:25:50.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:25:52.790000+08:00","text":"我想銓敘部一定會廣泛徵詢大家的意見。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:25:52.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:25:55.012000+08:00","text":"我要提醒，考績法不能閉門造車來修法，如果沒有廣納基層意見，未來還是行不通或形同虛設，我剛剛已經告訴過你為什麼形同虛設。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:25:55.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:26:22.310000+08:00","text":"最後，秘書長，我想跟你討論警消組工會的事，過去有很多警消兄弟因公殉職，他們面對的不是只有危險的工作環境，其實還有不太合理的勤務制度跟績效制度，所以希望能夠組工會來保障自己的權益，但是這個部分考試院是反對的，只願意修協會法。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:26:23.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:26:27.172000+08:00","text":"我想請問秘書長，為什麼你們會反對警消組工會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:26:27.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:26:27.913000+08:00","text":"我想知道原因。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:26:30.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:26:38.009000+08:00","text":"警消組工會這個議題有各種意見，考試院因為是協會法的主管機關，不是工會法的主管機關，已經有協會法的角色下……","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:26:38.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:26:39.250000+08:00","text":"那你擔心什麼呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:26:39.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:26:40.272000+08:00","text":"考試院擔心什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:26:42.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:26:44.717000+08:00","text":"從我們的角度，因為我們主管協會法，我們當然會從檢討協會法來著手，這就是我們為什麼兩度送出協會法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:26:49.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:00.468000+08:00","text":"秘書長，如果你們擔心罷工的問題，那就比照教師組工會就好了，你們可以有配套措施，在勞資爭議處理法當中明定禁止罷工不就可以了嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:00.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:03.349000+08:00","text":"你知道所有醫療院所都有工會耶！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:03.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:05.871000+08:00","text":"醫療院所都有了，你們怕什麼、擔心什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:06.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:08.272000+08:00","text":"這個議題應該是說，我覺得社會要有共識，它是一個我們要謹慎面對的議題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:08.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:09.413000+08:00","text":"我覺得官員在談社會共識，請問天下什麼事有社會共識呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:09.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:09.453000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:09.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:10.234000+08:00","text":"要共識到什麼程度呢？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:10.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:10.914000+08:00","text":"基層警消不買單你們的協會法，但畢竟這是你們的法案。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:11.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:12.255000+08:00","text":"那我再請教，2024年9月你們已經把這個法案送到立法院來，請問你有去推動嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:32.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:34.552000+08:00","text":"這一年來你們有拜託召委排案嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:34.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:36.254000+08:00","text":"有去做這個動作嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:36.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:38.878000+08:00","text":"還是只是交差了事？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:39.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:45.967000+08:00","text":"我記得我去年在這邊做業務報告的時候就有講，我們現在在立法院的法案就是協會法，所以也請……","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:45.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:27:47.108000+08:00","text":"既然送交了就應該去推動嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:27:48.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:28:06.685000+08:00","text":"之前衛環委員會有排審過工會法，開放警消組工會，因為我就在那個委員會，但是當時民進黨立委意見很多，所以召委裁示，等考試院的協會法出來，我們再一起說、再一起討論。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:28:06.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:28:10.148000+08:00","text":"可是你們現在似乎也沒有積極推動，那你乾脆就支持工會法啊！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:28:10.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:28:18.976000+08:00","text":"去年衛環委員會要求我們兩個月內提法案，所以我們就在兩個月之內把法案送到立法院來了，我去年在法制委員會也有報告說，考試院目前待審法案是……","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:28:18.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:28:19.677000+08:00","text":"不是只有送案，如果你們認為重要，就應該積極處理啦！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:28:19.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:28:20.317000+08:00","text":"這個法案的排審，我們就尊重委員會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:28:20.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:28:22.399000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我的重點就是一個，請你們要邀請基層公務員的團體，而且要讓他們能夠實質參與討論，這個攸關他們自己的考核。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:28:22.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:28:24.822000+08:00","text":"其實我們現在的協會法草案真的是擴大很多權限。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-19T09:28:25.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T09:28:25.342000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝秘書長，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T09:28:25.842000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T09:28:26.984857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T09:28:27.284857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T09:28:28.713429+08:00","text":"謝謝陳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（陳委員昭姿代）","start":"2026-03-19T09:28:29.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T09:28:32.156286+08:00","text":"接下來邀請翁曉玲來詢答。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}