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是因為我們"},{"start":185.502,"end":212.902,"text":"基本上還是站在整個國家的產業發展上面來持有這個所以就譬如說像台積電的話我們也基本上不會激進因為我的原則很簡單我跟你理性高峰談就是說因為它是2.1兆非常巨額所以我是覺得說如果你只是用一個單純的作業辦法然後有這些東西算到多少錢我覺得不夠把它提到位階這是我們的一個立場這樣子讓你理解一下"},{"start":213.82,"end":241.765,"text":"然後再來的話呢接下來都不是我講的都是監察院的報告那他列出的這些的缺失其實作為我們這一次本黨團修法的一些的依據比如說我們看一下這幾個包含盧鑫案保德能源、聯合再生、東北等等那監察院說的比如說你在這個盧鑫案裡頭未於決議詳疑調查憑藉被收購之9D集團人準與驗收付款"},{"start":242.225,"end":251.65,"text":"又忽視外聘專家學者警示意見令該基金委託資產聯合會計事務所以禁止的調查揭露東北公司財務問題"},{"start":253.413,"end":279.658,"text":"那略有重點管理項目應採取適當因應措施但是你也沒有發現他該公司的私募基金用於償還銀行的借款等等那監察院裡頭還有一個很重要的重點就是我們的這些的政策評估投資評估審議等等的會議沒有留存錄音發言記錄且會公開透明方式進行所以將來出事的時候難以釐清這樣的權責"},{"start":281.078,"end":308.796,"text":"那除了管理會有錄音之外其他都沒有所以我想這個是他寫的第三個經財院也非常強烈的說在我們這一個所謂的原產業創新轉型基金評審會委員組成的運作機制進行回歸一般直接投資的申請適用之投資評估審議委員會所以它導致原本我們比較重大的這些的政策的一個案件的時候它要三分之二的"},{"start":309.156,"end":325.828,"text":"出席委員同意可是因為他用這樣的方式的話他把它變成降為半數 二分之一所以我們在修法裡我們是希望說如果等著SOP的法制等著程序的一個公開透明我們希望能夠把這樣子的東西列進來"},{"start":327.029,"end":351.918,"text":"那我想最後我想要再跟各位再跟你們溝通一下的就是說我認為我們在這個法條還有一條很重要的像我們在盧興濫跟聯合再生的話其實它有很多的東西我們很害怕國發資金是有資底的這樣子的一個風險所以像盧興的話你把國發資金投入了公帑去變相補貼它海外的競爭者"},{"start":352.938,"end":375.965,"text":"那聯合再生在關鍵能源設施當中使用中置太陽能板的零組件所以這個是違背 對不對我們的這個政府的區中化 國產化所以我認為說在這個法條上面我們也希望把這個缺口補起來這也讓主委能夠理解那當然這個所謂的你們在這個回答裡面有關於說這個"},{"start":378.965,"end":405.339,"text":"第6頁法律重複規範這裡主要是因為出來手按這樣子的一個關係那因為這個全市部有函述說投資約約關係委託經營關係這些已經列入規範所以我也同意啦我們就把它列到這個公務員的限制規定跟處罰有一個一致性的一個標準那如果你認為我們那一個投資方不符合比例原則你就拿出你們的修正的版本出來"},{"start":406.22,"end":409.916,"text":"那這個以上大概我希望能夠大家有個良心的溝通 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:21:24.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:21:26.078000+08:00","text":"我請國發會葉主委。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T10:21:26.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:21:28.920000+08:00","text":"請國發會葉主委。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-03-19T10:21:29.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:21:29.881000+08:00","text":"委員好。好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:21:32.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:21:53.445000+08:00","text":"我在之前的提案說明已經說過本黨團提案的修正參考，但我想先跟你小小的抱怨，因為我看了一下開會通知單：「請列席單位準備相關書面資料200份於會議前1日送至本會，並將資料逕送本會委員研究室」。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:21:54.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:21:58.608000+08:00","text":"結果我是昨天晚上11時59分收到，你害我昨天看到2時……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-03-19T10:21:58.608000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:00.128000+08:00","text":"不好意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:00.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:05.691000+08:00","text":"再寫comment，我今天早上還要5、6時起來，這樣不好啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:05.691000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:08.052000+08:00","text":"這個跟委員說聲抱歉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:08.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:13.473000+08:00","text":"尤其我們是聯席，都是我們經濟委員會很多委員，不管是我們的召集人，對不對？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:13.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:18.474000+08:00","text":"提了這些的案子，我覺得你們這個速度……而且之前也有先行溝通。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:20.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:34.137000+08:00","text":"再來，我花了時間把你們的書面報告看完，其實我都是很務實的討論，但是我看完之後發現4個字，本席「深感遺憾」。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:35.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:48.073000+08:00","text":"就是好像我們提出來的東西，你們都有很多不想做、不願意改的心態，所以我稍微跟你說明一下為什麼這件事情會這樣子做。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:49.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:23:17.846000+08:00","text":"我覺得我有資格來講國發基金創新條例，原因是我有擔任過你們天使基金投資技術類的審查委員，我看完過去監察院的報告跟這些資料，其實我發現我們審1億、2億以下的小案子，搞不好還比你們審二、三十億的還要嚴謹，我還要寫同意、不同意的書面意見，而且還要具名的。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:23:19.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:23:20.207000+08:00","text":"沒關係！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:23:20.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:23:47.966000+08:00","text":"我的意思是這是我們人民的納稅錢，因為2.1兆真的是很大，也超過一般大多數部會的年度總預算，所以我覺得這個地方如果根據你們的回答，就是這個東西我們已經……像你們第四頁，它說，按照中央標準法第七條規定……我就不唸了，這收支管理運用辦法立即送立法院，以達委員監督之效。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:23:48.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:24:01.274000+08:00","text":"所以這感覺好像萬一像吳昕東被聯合再生……因為有送到立法院給委員監督了，好像就是弊端發生了，是立法院立法委員的責任，所以我覺得……","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-03-19T10:24:04.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:24:25.229000+08:00","text":"就這個部分跟委員分享一下，我們國發基金雖然資產有大概二、三兆左右，但是我們其實並沒有進行所謂很常進出股市，是因為我們基本上還是站在整個國家的產業發展上來持有，就譬如像台積電，我們也基本上不會………","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:24:25.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:24:39.660000+08:00","text":"我的原則很簡單，我跟你理性溝通，因為它是2.1兆、非常巨額，所以我是覺得如果你只是用一個單純的作業辦法，而這些東西送到立法院監督，我覺得不夠，把它提高位階啦！","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:24:39.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:24:42.882000+08:00","text":"這是我們的一個立場，讓你理解一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:24:44.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:25:33.175000+08:00","text":"再來，接下來都不是我講的，都是監察院的報告，他所列這些缺失其實是作為本黨團這一次修法的一些依據，比如我們看一下這幾案，包含如興案、寶德、能源、聯合再生、東貝等等，監察院報告說，比如：如興案未依決議詳予調查及評鑑被收購之玖地集團，仍准予驗收付款，又忽視外聘專家學者警示意見；另該基金委託資誠聯合會計師事務所以盡職的調查揭露東貝公司財務問題，列為重點管理項目應採取適當因應措施，但是有沒有發現該公司的私募基金用於償還銀行的借款……等等。","quality":0.832},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:25:34.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:25:55.841000+08:00","text":"監察院報告還有一個很重要的重點，就是這些政策評估、投資評估、審議等等的會議沒有留存錄音及發言紀錄，且非公開、透明方式進行，所以將來出事的時候難以釐清權責，除了管理會議有錄音之外其他都沒有，這是監察院寫的。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:25:56.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:35.828000+08:00","text":"第三、監察院有非常強烈的指出，在所謂的原產業創新轉型基金評審會委員組成的運作機制，進行回歸一般直接投資的申請適用之投資評估審議委員會，所以它導致原本較重大的政策案件審議時需三分之二的出席委員同意，可是因為用這樣的方式降為半數，二分之一，所以我們在修法部分，如果本著SOP的法制及程序的公開、透明，希望能夠把這些部分列進來。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:38.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:08.420000+08:00","text":"最後我想要再跟各位溝通法條中很重要的一條，像如興案跟聯合再生有很多的情形，我們很害怕國發資金是有資敵的風險，像如興案把國發基金投入的公帑去變相補貼它海外的競爭者；聯合再生在關鍵能源設施中使用中製太陽能板的零組件。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:09+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:12.781000+08:00","text":"所以這是違背我們政府的去中化、國產化對不對？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:13.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:20.244000+08:00","text":"所以我們也希望把這個法條的缺口補起來，也讓主委能夠理解。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:23.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:59.916000+08:00","text":"另外在你們回答的第6頁法律重複規範部分，主要是因為蘇來守案的關係，因銓敘部有函釋，投資業務關係、委託經營關係已經列入規範，所以我也同意了，我們就把它列到公務員的限制、規定跟處罰，才有一致性的標準，如果你認為我們的投資化不符合比例原則，你就提出你們的修正版本，以上，我希望大家能夠有良性的溝通，謝謝。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T10:28:00.416000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:28:03.844571+08:00","text":"謝謝洪毓祥委員，主委先回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T10:28:04.144571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:28:07.287429+08:00","text":"下一位請李坤城委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}