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我們先請秘書長 謝謝好 請劉秘書長是 委員長好 秘書長早那我想首先呢我看到就是秘書長在3月13號的時候國家人力資源論壇上面有提到有數據才有真相並強調我們的考試院這三年來呢都強調一個循證決策透過資料庫分析跟學界的合作來提升我們決策的品質這樣子的方向其實我非常給予肯定就是因為這段時間我去日本跟澳洲"},{"start":38.295,"end":52.292,"text":"那我跟他們在聊的時候呢他們的很多政策都有非常清楚的一個數據例如過去他們可能是蹲式廁所改成坐式廁所這裡面都有非常多的數據去支撐他們的政策要往哪個方向去前進那或者是像是澳洲的公共空間綠色"},{"start":54.773,"end":77.358,"text":"這個遊戲場啊綠色的公共空間等等的都有所以我這個方面我是非常的支持但是我想請教就是秘書長已經推動三年了那我們現在到底有哪一個政策或是重大的制度改革是依循數據分析而正式啟動的跟委員報告其實我們做這個政策是希望讓大家"},{"start":79.247,"end":100.502,"text":"對於事實的分析 尤其我們的同仁在做政策研議跟就業的時候也包含我們自己決策者 包含我們的考試委員 政府院長在做這個決策的時候能夠有更清楚的數據的分析所以您說具體哪一個政策是這樣我認為幾乎多數的政策都是如此因為我們現在這幾年來我們都會希望說在決策的時候大家就會問實際的狀況究竟如何"},{"start":104.545,"end":132.688,"text":"就像剛剛我們很多委員執行也講出了比如說到底會辭職的公務同仁都是誰如果透過數據分析我們看到說大部分是剛考進來的同仁比較多所以就不知道說那可能是限制轉調跟他們要為了改分發而重新考試類似像這樣的現況的了解我們都會希望有實際的數字佐證而不是都是很多人的個案的意見的彙整但是可能就沒有清楚的全貌主要是這樣"},{"start":133.427,"end":158.396,"text":"好那接下來我也想要請教一下我們的施能傑部長但是可能這個東西也會跟秘書長有關係就是說我們目前我看了一下我手邊的資料我們111年我們公教人員的生育率跟全國相比還領先0.29約1.33倍但是到113年的時候我們這個領先全國的幅度往下降了"},{"start":159.336,"end":185.515,"text":"也就是說過去我們可能認為公教人員比較願意升啊但是目前這個優勢已經不見了好 那我想了解就先請教秘書長就是我們有沒有任何的研究來了解說為什麼我們的公務員有這樣子的一個狀況秘書長或是部長可以回答這一點我跟委員報告 當然我以前在當人事長的時候曾經做真的是跑過資料run過整體上看起來是比較高但是如果公務員有很多類別對"},{"start":186.69,"end":215.595,"text":"差異很大譬如說區分成公務人員、警察、教師然後去讓他的生育率其實是差異很大我先講這個拒絕數字是這樣那整體這是一個整體的東西那老實說我們並沒有真正就這部分我看過很多比較細緻的那個分析研究報告為什麼公務人員生育率的影響他一些應該我們也沒有做過這方面的分析報告"},{"start":216.175,"end":241.726,"text":"好 了解那我認為我們應該要去了解這件事情因為我想大環境的少子化一定是有一些影響性然後整個價值觀的改變也多少都有影響但是這個領先幅度還是有點太低的我覺得這可以做一個研究來了解但是我想有件事情我們可以先來做就是說在去年的時候其實12月我們的政府已經宣布了這個利多的政策也就是說育嬰留庭會改成6加1個月雙親來共同育兒這件事情"},{"start":244.927,"end":258.781,"text":"那目前呢勞動部是大規模鋪天蓋地的讓很多的勞工朋友都會知道但是我詢問了一些公教人員他們其實並不知道這件事情所以我認為我們在宣傳的這件事情上面應該可以做改善部長你的看法是"},{"start":260.436,"end":286.301,"text":"我想謝謝委員我們會跟公務同仁談這個事情但是很實際的狀況是這樣這個應該要修法所以部裡面其實已經在啟動那個修法的那個程序中我想修法跟宣傳這兩件事情應該是可以同步作業啦那我想說那宣傳的部分是可不可以給我們一個簡單的說明你們預計如何擴大宣傳這件事情以及我們現在修法預計大概什麼時候可以完成呢"},{"start":287.801,"end":314.586,"text":"我們內部的修法大概應該是下個月應該就可以完成我們內部的程序那我們會報到考試院去那行政院那邊我的了解目前也還在他的法的修正還在勞動部沒錯 他們已經預告了啦那我們有同步啦 我們有同步好 有同步就好那就是請問大概什麼時候可以給我一個宣傳你們大概打算怎麼對內部的公務人員做宣傳是不是可以兩個禮拜給我一個說明好不好好 就是"},{"start":315.606,"end":323.951,"text":"宣傳的方式剛好嘛因為你四月要送出嘛我們四月的時候同步作業我們努力來看看怎麼樣做這一部分的事情好那再來就下一個問題還是彈性工時啦因為其實我之前也跟部長來請教過了部長可以先請回了謝謝"},{"start":331.158,"end":351.994,"text":"那有關於彈性的工時的部分呢之前其實是有看到說在107年9月3號的時候呢的確有發文通靈各機關必須遵守性工法的一個相關規範那這部分我也是給予肯定但是我也問了一些有育兒的公務人員他們遇到一個食物的狀況就是說當他需要可能提早一個小時"},{"start":353.155,"end":369.805,"text":"可能不主張減少一小時只是希望可以提早上班就是這個彈性工時的部分讓他可以早點去接小孩但是呢還是會遇到這些機關呢可能在人事單位這邊就陣亡了那有些單位可能就非常的支持"},{"start":370.245,"end":386.183,"text":"所以我覺得這個就存在了一個差異那當然我也理解每個工作每個部會可能都會有不同的狀況因為勞動部這邊也有類似的問題可是勞動部還是想辦法怎麼樣來鼓勵我們的企業來做這件事情所以我也是在想說"},{"start":387.304,"end":403.416,"text":"部長是人事專家啦在這個部分上面我們是不是也可以提出更好的鼓勵方案因為像是前陣子台北市蔣萬安市長有提出可以讓家長提早一小時下班可是這件事情並不適用公務人員所以呢不曉得說部長對這件事情的一個看法是什麼"},{"start":404.758,"end":419.804,"text":"我是蠻覺得彈性工齒是可以創造友善的工作環境一個很好的一個方法布裡面就我們實施的彈性工齒就非常Range非常非常大但是各機關真的差異我完全了解但是我們的法規沒有問題"},{"start":420.764,"end":437.61,"text":"對沒錯 絕對可以做那事實上就是機關要不要做機關怎麼做那這個部分以台灣的分工來講我會跟主要都是在人事總署在比較他比較負責就是說去做宣導去做一些指引他那邊會比我們這邊來的更有效這部分我來跟那個"},{"start":441.151,"end":459.645,"text":"總署的同仁呢在談談說有什麼方式也可以跟機關講因為機關有疑慮啦主要是機關有疑慮用人機關疑慮怎麼樣說怎麼樣做法也許可以減少他們的疑慮那大家鼓勵來做這次COVID-19的時候就要努力來做但是19完以後就大家要回復比較多回復原來的狀況"},{"start":460.265,"end":480.072,"text":"所以我想這部分還是希望積極的來鼓勵啦因為我這次去澳洲我也醒悟了他們的公務體系啦那他們公務體系也提出了非常多不同的這種彈性工作或是遠距工作或各種的方式來去提供他們的公務人員可以怎麼樣工作跟家庭兼顧所以這個部分我想也是需要部長一起來努力那我也希望就是說因為"},{"start":480.592,"end":497.709,"text":"其實秘書署長剛剛就像我們剛剛一直在講的就是有數據才有真相所以我也希望說我們提供的一些講注方案也是可以延續我們這個尋證決策的一個概念來繼續執行那這個部分的話可能後續我也會再跟部長約時間來討論好謝謝謝謝部長那接下來抱歉還有一題考機法考機法"},{"start":504.975,"end":522.669,"text":"部長又請你回來了就是說今年在一月份的時候有民眾在公共政策的網路參與平台有提到一個檢討公務人員考機法那其實今天有非常多的委員都討論到了這一點因為這件事情其實在基層公務人員的反應是非常非常的應該說表達意見非常踴躍啦在兩個禮拜就達成了連署的門檻"},{"start":525.151,"end":548.991,"text":"那我自己在上網看的時候呢其實大家對於幾個議題非常有意見第一個就是考機的比例僵化難以反應實際的工作表現那甚至你也可以看到上面我截圖的這些留言喔大家一直其實都會提到輪流輪到一等這樣子那我剛剛也有聽到就是說部長的一些回應就是說未來我們不會再有甲乙丙丁制"},{"start":549.671,"end":558.543,"text":"然後我們可能會有一個比較頂尖的這個拔尖的概念那我想可能會是一個比較像是統計學的左偽分布的一個概念那"},{"start":560.697,"end":589.236,"text":"目前呢 我知道我們已經有一些就是篩選出什麼模範公務人員啊但是這個是非常非常頂尖我們體制上的確是有的但是我們是不是有可能可以把它分佈在一個比較是像這樣子的一個像我圖表上面這樣子的一個建議就是不要到那種 就是在秤值之間跟非常頂尖之間有一個頂尖的因為這樣才有更多的人可以被選到這個位置部長您的看法是"},{"start":590.774,"end":593.815,"text":"其實我們的概念會比較像這一張圖啦但是不會這麼複雜啦跟你們的圖是比較像是這一張圖嗎"},{"start":600.443,"end":625.998,"text":"比較像是這一我不會設定比例好的應該我要講我不設定比例但是會比較像是以我對公務實際的了解絕大部分的同仁都是稱職的公務同仁他們就是被教辦工作努力工作也把該做的事情做好那我們就認為他就是一個很稱職的公務人但是確實有些很少數的同仁真的表現更好那我們就會放到那個就是我們要"},{"start":626.858,"end":653.395,"text":"要著重的是這邊如果同仁真的不符合我們法律有規定一些我們未來有規定會說哪些事項哪些新聞你不可以有工作新聞如果你真的有這個東西你會放在就是未打良好我想我這張圖的概念其實是說因為我們可能大部分我也相信大部分的公務人員都是非常的認真那現在我們的體制上面如果你只有非常優秀的那種模範的機制的話就會讓很多的人其實他的表現"},{"start":654.255,"end":679.578,"text":"其實可能已經超越頂尖了已經超越秤值了可是他沒有辦法到這種拔尖的狀態的時候這是兩個不同的概念我們那個模範公務人員跟工作考機是不一樣的沒錯沒錯就是希望說我們是可以有一個我們這兩個是區隔的對對對就是區隔的部分那再來就是說我想針對於一些待觀察或是您剛剛講說比較有狀況的一些公務人員的話比較需要一些輔導的話我們是不是可以有具體的輔導或是考核的機制來幫助他們前進呢"},{"start":681.452,"end":698.788,"text":"我們希望未來如果任何一個機關要打同仁落入到這個未打良好這個category他平常就要有一些很好的這個譬如像說紀錄觀察甚至覺得他不好其中就要給他有一些比較改善的一個機會那我想是一定會有這個機制"},{"start":700.205,"end":717.279,"text":"那我想在問這個問題的同時我也想請教因為公務人員考積法我知道已經在討論當中那有沒有可能在這個會期就送到立法院來進行審查我們會以這個為努力的目標好那最後一題那我們再請秘書長抱歉謝謝部長"},{"start":722.24,"end":736.708,"text":"那就是說牧師長想請教一下因為在2025年的時候我們完成了公務人員保障法的修法正式將公務人員的職場霸凌處理機制納入母法那後續呢保訓會會依據母法修訂公務人員的執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法"},{"start":738.169,"end":765.341,"text":"那但是呢我們在看到職安法或者性公法相比的時候我們目前公務體系的相關保護措施還是放在執法的一個層級那目前我們其實也缺乏了一個明確的法律規範我們只有寫到具體有效措施跟其他的法規都明確定義處理過程的權利義務其實是有差別的那如果我們今天從法制的角度來看根據中央標準"},{"start":766.902,"end":788.56,"text":"中央法規標準法的第五條人民的權利義務事項都應該以法律來定之所以說當公務機關是在職場霸凌中應該要採取哪些的保護措施或是相關權利義務因為牽扯到當事人的權利跟義務所以應該要採取法律所謂的利事原則才對所以我在想我們是不是有可能來在這個"},{"start":790.862,"end":807.822,"text":"在這個涉及人身安全的職場霸凌案件之中把機關應採取之保護措施以法律明確列舉來避免各機關認定不一甚至消極處理的一個問題我們是不是有可能來做這樣子的研議呢"},{"start":812.644,"end":823.048,"text":"我們保障法跟安慰辦法的這個架構如果你從法律層次來看好像跟治安法的結構不一樣不過我想"},{"start":823.968,"end":846.16,"text":"即便它部分是在比如說安慰辦法裡面我想對各機關的指引跟拘束的效果還是一樣強因為最主要公部門的同仁大家都會依照規定比較不會有違法的狀況那規範的細節上面如果有沒有不明確這個部分我想請主委這邊來幫忙說明好 謝謝"},{"start":849.52,"end":874.262,"text":"跟委員報告就是您剛提到那個問題那因為這個保障法19條它其實是在民國92年的時候新增的所以呢對於這個安慰辦法的這個授權法源在那邊那因為它這個涉及到有關於法律的一個執行的細節或是執行面相關的部分就授權放在這個安慰辦法但是委員您剛非常關切的"},{"start":875.083,"end":901.463,"text":"有關於這個公務人員的權利義務的這個部分包含這個職場霸凌的定義然後呢它的一個具體措施具體採取這是有關於那個採取或者是它的一個行政罰款相關的這個法律違反效果等等這些您最關心的議題其實它都是放在保障法裡面那這是跟委員檢要報告這樣那第二個部分就是涉及到就是說"},{"start":902.203,"end":921.939,"text":"陳如我們剛剛秘書長所講您關心的這些部分在現在一個就是在保障法跟安慰辦法裡面它其實是搭配得非常好那目前我們有去蒐集這個各機關還有這個相關的申訴人他們的就一些看法就是那目前都沒有人反映說"},{"start":923.533,"end":952.674,"text":"需要再把它放到法律裡面因為目前整個保障法已經是一百零四條了所以它已經很大但是呢委員你所提的這個關切的部分我們在這個未來還有現在我們也會持續的繼續去滾動如果有必要把它放到這個法律裡面我們也會這個去進行這樣子的一個研議那我想就是我還是希望可以去研議一下那是不是三個月之後給我一個研議的報告好不好"},{"start":953.114,"end":954.957,"text":"謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}