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政府院長在做這個決策的時候能夠有更清楚的數據的分析所以您說具體哪一個政策是這樣我認為幾乎多數的政策都是如此因為我們現在這幾年來我們都會希望說在決策的時候大家就會問實際的狀況究竟如何"},{"start":104.545,"end":132.688,"text":"就像剛剛我們很多委員執行也講出了比如說到底會辭職的公務同仁都是誰如果透過數據分析我們看到說大部分是剛考進來的同仁比較多所以就不知道說那可能是限制轉調跟他們要為了改分發而重新考試類似像這樣的現況的了解我們都會希望有實際的數字佐證而不是都是很多人的個案的意見的彙整但是可能就沒有清楚的全貌主要是這樣"},{"start":133.427,"end":158.396,"text":"好那接下來我也想要請教一下我們的施能傑部長但是可能這個東西也會跟秘書長有關係就是說我們目前我看了一下我手邊的資料我們111年我們公教人員的生育率跟全國相比還領先0.29約1.33倍但是到113年的時候我們這個領先全國的幅度往下降了"},{"start":159.336,"end":185.515,"text":"也就是說過去我們可能認為公教人員比較願意升啊但是目前這個優勢已經不見了好 那我想了解就先請教秘書長就是我們有沒有任何的研究來了解說為什麼我們的公務員有這樣子的一個狀況秘書長或是部長可以回答這一點我跟委員報告 當然我以前在當人事長的時候曾經做真的是跑過資料run過整體上看起來是比較高但是如果公務員有很多類別對"},{"start":186.69,"end":215.595,"text":"差異很大譬如說區分成公務人員、警察、教師然後去讓他的生育率其實是差異很大我先講這個拒絕數字是這樣那整體這是一個整體的東西那老實說我們並沒有真正就這部分我看過很多比較細緻的那個分析研究報告為什麼公務人員生育率的影響他一些應該我們也沒有做過這方面的分析報告"},{"start":216.175,"end":241.726,"text":"好 了解那我認為我們應該要去了解這件事情因為我想大環境的少子化一定是有一些影響性然後整個價值觀的改變也多少都有影響但是這個領先幅度還是有點太低的我覺得這可以做一個研究來了解但是我想有件事情我們可以先來做就是說在去年的時候其實12月我們的政府已經宣布了這個利多的政策也就是說育嬰留庭會改成6加1個月雙親來共同育兒這件事情"},{"start":244.927,"end":258.781,"text":"那目前呢勞動部是大規模鋪天蓋地的讓很多的勞工朋友都會知道但是我詢問了一些公教人員他們其實並不知道這件事情所以我認為我們在宣傳的這件事情上面應該可以做改善部長你的看法是"},{"start":260.436,"end":286.301,"text":"我想謝謝委員我們會跟公務同仁談這個事情但是很實際的狀況是這樣這個應該要修法所以部裡面其實已經在啟動那個修法的那個程序中我想修法跟宣傳這兩件事情應該是可以同步作業啦那我想說那宣傳的部分是可不可以給我們一個簡單的說明你們預計如何擴大宣傳這件事情以及我們現在修法預計大概什麼時候可以完成呢"},{"start":287.801,"end":314.586,"text":"我們內部的修法大概應該是下個月應該就可以完成我們內部的程序那我們會報到考試院去那行政院那邊我的了解目前也還在他的法的修正還在勞動部沒錯 他們已經預告了啦那我們有同步啦 我們有同步好 有同步就好那就是請問大概什麼時候可以給我一個宣傳你們大概打算怎麼對內部的公務人員做宣傳是不是可以兩個禮拜給我一個說明好不好好 就是"},{"start":315.606,"end":323.951,"text":"宣傳的方式剛好嘛因為你四月要送出嘛我們四月的時候同步作業我們努力來看看怎麼樣做這一部分的事情好那再來就下一個問題還是彈性工時啦因為其實我之前也跟部長來請教過了部長可以先請回了謝謝"},{"start":331.158,"end":351.994,"text":"那有關於彈性的工時的部分呢之前其實是有看到說在107年9月3號的時候呢的確有發文通靈各機關必須遵守性工法的一個相關規範那這部分我也是給予肯定但是我也問了一些有育兒的公務人員他們遇到一個食物的狀況就是說當他需要可能提早一個小時"},{"start":353.155,"end":369.805,"text":"可能不主張減少一小時只是希望可以提早上班就是這個彈性工時的部分讓他可以早點去接小孩但是呢還是會遇到這些機關呢可能在人事單位這邊就陣亡了那有些單位可能就非常的支持"},{"start":370.245,"end":386.183,"text":"所以我覺得這個就存在了一個差異那當然我也理解每個工作每個部會可能都會有不同的狀況因為勞動部這邊也有類似的問題可是勞動部還是想辦法怎麼樣來鼓勵我們的企業來做這件事情所以我也是在想說"},{"start":387.304,"end":403.416,"text":"部長是人事專家啦在這個部分上面我們是不是也可以提出更好的鼓勵方案因為像是前陣子台北市蔣萬安市長有提出可以讓家長提早一小時下班可是這件事情並不適用公務人員所以呢不曉得說部長對這件事情的一個看法是什麼"},{"start":404.758,"end":419.804,"text":"我是蠻覺得彈性工齒是可以創造友善的工作環境一個很好的一個方法布裡面就我們實施的彈性工齒就非常Range非常非常大但是各機關真的差異我完全了解但是我們的法規沒有問題"},{"start":420.764,"end":437.61,"text":"對沒錯 絕對可以做那事實上就是機關要不要做機關怎麼做那這個部分以台灣的分工來講我會跟主要都是在人事總署在比較他比較負責就是說去做宣導去做一些指引他那邊會比我們這邊來的更有效這部分我來跟那個"},{"start":441.151,"end":459.645,"text":"總署的同仁呢在談談說有什麼方式也可以跟機關講因為機關有疑慮啦主要是機關有疑慮用人機關疑慮怎麼樣說怎麼樣做法也許可以減少他們的疑慮那大家鼓勵來做這次COVID-19的時候就要努力來做但是19完以後就大家要回復比較多回復原來的狀況"},{"start":460.265,"end":480.072,"text":"所以我想這部分還是希望積極的來鼓勵啦因為我這次去澳洲我也醒悟了他們的公務體系啦那他們公務體系也提出了非常多不同的這種彈性工作或是遠距工作或各種的方式來去提供他們的公務人員可以怎麼樣工作跟家庭兼顧所以這個部分我想也是需要部長一起來努力那我也希望就是說因為"},{"start":480.592,"end":497.709,"text":"其實秘書署長剛剛就像我們剛剛一直在講的就是有數據才有真相所以我也希望說我們提供的一些講注方案也是可以延續我們這個尋證決策的一個概念來繼續執行那這個部分的話可能後續我也會再跟部長約時間來討論好謝謝謝謝部長那接下來抱歉還有一題考機法考機法"},{"start":504.975,"end":522.669,"text":"部長又請你回來了就是說今年在一月份的時候有民眾在公共政策的網路參與平台有提到一個檢討公務人員考機法那其實今天有非常多的委員都討論到了這一點因為這件事情其實在基層公務人員的反應是非常非常的應該說表達意見非常踴躍啦在兩個禮拜就達成了連署的門檻"},{"start":525.151,"end":548.991,"text":"那我自己在上網看的時候呢其實大家對於幾個議題非常有意見第一個就是考機的比例僵化難以反應實際的工作表現那甚至你也可以看到上面我截圖的這些留言喔大家一直其實都會提到輪流輪到一等這樣子那我剛剛也有聽到就是說部長的一些回應就是說未來我們不會再有甲乙丙丁制"},{"start":549.671,"end":558.543,"text":"然後我們可能會有一個比較頂尖的這個拔尖的概念那我想可能會是一個比較像是統計學的左偽分布的一個概念那"},{"start":560.697,"end":589.236,"text":"目前呢 我知道我們已經有一些就是篩選出什麼模範公務人員啊但是這個是非常非常頂尖我們體制上的確是有的但是我們是不是有可能可以把它分佈在一個比較是像這樣子的一個像我圖表上面這樣子的一個建議就是不要到那種 就是在秤值之間跟非常頂尖之間有一個頂尖的因為這樣才有更多的人可以被選到這個位置部長您的看法是"},{"start":590.774,"end":593.815,"text":"其實我們的概念會比較像這一張圖啦但是不會這麼複雜啦跟你們的圖是比較像是這一張圖嗎"},{"start":600.443,"end":625.998,"text":"比較像是這一我不會設定比例好的應該我要講我不設定比例但是會比較像是以我對公務實際的了解絕大部分的同仁都是稱職的公務同仁他們就是被教辦工作努力工作也把該做的事情做好那我們就認為他就是一個很稱職的公務人但是確實有些很少數的同仁真的表現更好那我們就會放到那個就是我們要"},{"start":626.858,"end":653.395,"text":"要著重的是這邊如果同仁真的不符合我們法律有規定一些我們未來有規定會說哪些事項哪些新聞你不可以有工作新聞如果你真的有這個東西你會放在就是未打良好我想我這張圖的概念其實是說因為我們可能大部分我也相信大部分的公務人員都是非常的認真那現在我們的體制上面如果你只有非常優秀的那種模範的機制的話就會讓很多的人其實他的表現"},{"start":654.255,"end":679.578,"text":"其實可能已經超越頂尖了已經超越秤值了可是他沒有辦法到這種拔尖的狀態的時候這是兩個不同的概念我們那個模範公務人員跟工作考機是不一樣的沒錯沒錯就是希望說我們是可以有一個我們這兩個是區隔的對對對就是區隔的部分那再來就是說我想針對於一些待觀察或是您剛剛講說比較有狀況的一些公務人員的話比較需要一些輔導的話我們是不是可以有具體的輔導或是考核的機制來幫助他們前進呢"},{"start":681.452,"end":698.788,"text":"我們希望未來如果任何一個機關要打同仁落入到這個未打良好這個category他平常就要有一些很好的這個譬如像說紀錄觀察甚至覺得他不好其中就要給他有一些比較改善的一個機會那我想是一定會有這個機制"},{"start":700.205,"end":717.279,"text":"那我想在問這個問題的同時我也想請教因為公務人員考積法我知道已經在討論當中那有沒有可能在這個會期就送到立法院來進行審查我們會以這個為努力的目標好那最後一題那我們再請秘書長抱歉謝謝部長"},{"start":722.24,"end":736.708,"text":"那就是說牧師長想請教一下因為在2025年的時候我們完成了公務人員保障法的修法正式將公務人員的職場霸凌處理機制納入母法那後續呢保訓會會依據母法修訂公務人員的執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法"},{"start":738.169,"end":765.341,"text":"那但是呢我們在看到職安法或者性公法相比的時候我們目前公務體系的相關保護措施還是放在執法的一個層級那目前我們其實也缺乏了一個明確的法律規範我們只有寫到具體有效措施跟其他的法規都明確定義處理過程的權利義務其實是有差別的那如果我們今天從法制的角度來看根據中央標準"},{"start":766.902,"end":788.56,"text":"中央法規標準法的第五條人民的權利義務事項都應該以法律來定之所以說當公務機關是在職場霸凌中應該要採取哪些的保護措施或是相關權利義務因為牽扯到當事人的權利跟義務所以應該要採取法律所謂的利事原則才對所以我在想我們是不是有可能來在這個"},{"start":790.862,"end":807.822,"text":"在這個涉及人身安全的職場霸凌案件之中把機關應採取之保護措施以法律明確列舉來避免各機關認定不一甚至消極處理的一個問題我們是不是有可能來做這樣子的研議呢"},{"start":812.644,"end":823.048,"text":"我們保障法跟安慰辦法的這個架構如果你從法律層次來看好像跟治安法的結構不一樣不過我想"},{"start":823.968,"end":846.16,"text":"即便它部分是在比如說安慰辦法裡面我想對各機關的指引跟拘束的效果還是一樣強因為最主要公部門的同仁大家都會依照規定比較不會有違法的狀況那規範的細節上面如果有沒有不明確這個部分我想請主委這邊來幫忙說明好 謝謝"},{"start":849.52,"end":874.262,"text":"跟委員報告就是您剛提到那個問題那因為這個保障法19條它其實是在民國92年的時候新增的所以呢對於這個安慰辦法的這個授權法源在那邊那因為它這個涉及到有關於法律的一個執行的細節或是執行面相關的部分就授權放在這個安慰辦法但是委員您剛非常關切的"},{"start":875.083,"end":901.463,"text":"有關於這個公務人員的權利義務的這個部分包含這個職場霸凌的定義然後呢它的一個具體措施具體採取這是有關於那個採取或者是它的一個行政罰款相關的這個法律違反效果等等這些您最關心的議題其實它都是放在保障法裡面那這是跟委員檢要報告這樣那第二個部分就是涉及到就是說"},{"start":902.203,"end":921.939,"text":"陳如我們剛剛秘書長所講您關心的這些部分在現在一個就是在保障法跟安慰辦法裡面它其實是搭配得非常好那目前我們有去蒐集這個各機關還有這個相關的申訴人他們的就一些看法就是那目前都沒有人反映說"},{"start":923.533,"end":952.674,"text":"需要再把它放到法律裡面因為目前整個保障法已經是一百零四條了所以它已經很大但是呢委員你所提的這個關切的部分我們在這個未來還有現在我們也會持續的繼續去滾動如果有必要把它放到這個法律裡面我們也會這個去進行這樣子的一個研議那我想就是我還是希望可以去研議一下那是不是三個月之後給我一個研議的報告好不好"},{"start":953.114,"end":954.957,"text":"謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:20.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:21.193000+08:00","text":"我們先請秘書長，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:24.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:24.256000+08:00","text":"請劉秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:24.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:26.838000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:28.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:28.399000+08:00","text":"秘書長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:29.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:45.752000+08:00","text":"首先，我看到秘書長在3月13號的「國家人力資源論壇」上面提到，有數據才有真相，並強調考試院這3年來的行政決策，是透過資料庫分析、跟學界合作來提升決策品質，這樣子的方向其實我非常給予肯定。謝謝。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:46.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:22:54.301000+08:00","text":"因為這段時間我去了日本跟澳洲，我跟他們在聊的時候，他們的很多政策都有非常清楚的一個數據。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:22:54.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:23:10.274000+08:00","text":"例如過去他們可能是蹲式廁所改成坐式廁所，這裡面都有非常多的數據去支撐他們的政策要往哪個方向前進；或者像是澳洲的公共空間，綠色遊戲場、綠色公共空間等等的都有，所以這方面我是非常支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:23:10.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:23:20.316000+08:00","text":"但是我想請教秘書長，已經推動3年了，現在到底有哪一個政策或重大的制度改革，是依循數據分析而正式啟動的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:23:23.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:23:41.175000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實我們做這個政策是希望讓大家對於事實分析，尤其我們的同仁在做政策研議跟研究的時候，也包含我們自己決策者，包含考試委員、正副院長，在做決策的時候能夠有更清楚的數據分析。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:23:41.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:24:03.051000+08:00","text":"所以您說具體哪一個政策是這樣，我認為幾乎多數的政策都是如此，因為這幾年來我們都會希望在決策的時候，大家就……實際的狀況究竟如何，就像剛剛很多委員質詢也講出了，比如說到底會辭職的公務同仁都是誰？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:24:03.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:24:24.427000+08:00","text":"如果透過數據分析，我們看到大部分是剛考進來的同仁比較多，那可能是限制轉調，以及他們為了改分發而重新考試，類似像這樣現況的了解，我們都會希望有實際的數字佐證，而不都是很多人的個案之意見彙整，但是可能就沒有清楚的全貌，主要是這樣。好。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:24:25.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:24:31.530000+08:00","text":"接下來我也想要請教一下施能傑部長，但是可能這個東西也會跟秘書長有關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:24:34.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:24:56.161000+08:00","text":"目前我看了一下手邊的資料，111年我們公教人員的生育率跟全國相比還領先0.29（約1.33倍），但是到113年的時候這個領先全國的幅度往下降了，也就是過去我們可能認為公教人員比較願意生，但是目前這個優勢已經不見了。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:24:56.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:25:02.385000+08:00","text":"那我想了解，就先請教秘書長，有沒有任何的研究來了解為什麼我們的公務員有這樣子的一個狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:25:02.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:25:05.667000+08:00","text":"秘書長或是部長可以回應這一點嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:25:05.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:25:18.270000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，我以前當人事長的時候真的是跑過資料、run過，整體上看起來是比較高，但是公務人員有很多類別，差異很大。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:25:18.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:25:31.232000+08:00","text":"譬如我區分成公務人員、警察人員、教師，然後去run他們的生育率，其實是差異很大，我先講這個具體的數字是這樣，這是整體的一個東西。對。","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:25:32.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:25:46.575000+08:00","text":"老實說，我看過很多比較細緻的分析研究報告，至於為什麼對公務人員生育率有影響的一些概念，應該我們也沒有做過這方面的分析報告。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:25:47.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:25:47.595000+08:00","text":"我了解，好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:25:48.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:01.401000+08:00","text":"我認為我們應該要去了解這件事情，因為大環境的少子化一定是有些影響性，整個價值觀的改變也多少都有影響，但是領先幅度還是有點太低了，我覺得這個要做一個研究來了解。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:01.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:20.972000+08:00","text":"不過我想有件事情我們可以先做，去年12月我們政府已經宣布了利多政策，育嬰留停津貼會改成6+1個月，鼓勵雙親共同育兒的這件事情，目前勞動部是大規模、鋪天蓋地讓很多的勞工朋友都可以知道。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:21.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:28.880000+08:00","text":"但是我詢問了一些公教人員，他們其實並不知道這件事情，所以我認為我們在宣傳的這件事情上面應該可以做改善。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:29.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:29.640000+08:00","text":"部長，你的看法呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:32.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:42.838000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，我們會跟公務同仁談這個事情，但是很實際的狀況是這樣，這個因為要修法，所以部裡面已經在啟動修法程序中。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:43.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:45.719000+08:00","text":"我想修法跟宣傳這兩件事情……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:45.719000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:46.719000+08:00","text":"對，我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:46.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:47.159000+08:00","text":"應該是可以同步作業。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:47.159000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:48.259000+08:00","text":"好，是的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:48.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:53.400000+08:00","text":"那宣傳部分可不可以給我們一個簡單的說明，你們預計如何擴大宣傳這件事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:53.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:26:57.281000+08:00","text":"以及現在要修法，預計大概什麼時候可以完成呢？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:26:58.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:05.842000+08:00","text":"我們內部的修法，下個月應該就可以完成內部的程序，我們會報到考試院去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:06.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:10.983000+08:00","text":"行政院那邊，我的了解是目前法的修正案還在勞動部。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:11.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:12.524000+08:00","text":"沒錯，他們已經預告了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:12.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:13.284000+08:00","text":"我們希望同步，我們有同步做這個事情。","quality":0.312},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:14.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:15.384000+08:00","text":"好，有同步就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:16.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:25.226000+08:00","text":"請問大概什麼時候可以給我一個針對宣傳方面，你們打算怎麼對內部的公務人員做宣傳，是不是可以在兩個禮拜內給我一個說明，好不好？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:25.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:25.566000+08:00","text":"好，就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:26.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:27.266000+08:00","text":"宣傳的方式。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:27.266000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:28.266000+08:00","text":"好，我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:27.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:30.549000+08:00","text":"剛好，因為你4月要送出，我們4月的時候同步作業。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:30.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:33.510000+08:00","text":"好，我們努力來看看怎麼樣做這一部分的事情。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:34.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:34.791000+08:00","text":"下一個問題，還是彈性工時，其實我之前也跟部長請教過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:34.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:34.951000+08:00","text":"秘書長可以先請回了，謝謝。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:43.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:27:56.369000+08:00","text":"有關於彈性工時的部分，之前看到在107年9月3號的時候，的確有發文通令各機關必須遵守性工法的相關規範，這部分我也給予肯定。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:27:56.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:28:23.227000+08:00","text":"但是我也問了一些有育兒的公務人員，他們遇到實務上的一個狀況就是，當他有需要，可能不主張減少1小時，只是希望可以提早上班，就彈性工時的部分，讓他可以早點去接小孩，但在用人機關方面，可能在人事單位這邊就陣亡了，而有些單位可能就非常支持，所以我覺得存有差異。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:28:23.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:28:35.881000+08:00","text":"當然我也理解每個工作、每個部會可能都會有不同的狀況，因為勞動部這邊也有類似的問題，但勞動部還是想辦法，看怎麼樣鼓勵我們的企業來做這件事情。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:28:36.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:28:43.188000+08:00","text":"所以我也在想，部長是人事專家，在這個部分我們是不是也可以提出更好的鼓勵方案？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:28:43.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:28:54.416000+08:00","text":"像前陣子臺北市蔣萬安市長有提出可以讓家長提早1小時下班，可是這件事情並不適用於公務人員，不曉得部長對於這件事情的看法是什麼？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:28:55.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:29:06.222000+08:00","text":"我是蠻覺得彈性工時是可以創造友善工作環境的一個很好的方法，部裡面我們實施彈性工時的range就非常非常大。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:29:07.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:29:10.804000+08:00","text":"各機關真的差異很大，我完全了解，但是我們的法規沒有問題……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:29:11.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:29:12.024000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:29:12.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:29:43.740000+08:00","text":"絕對可以做，事實上就是機關要不要做、機關怎麼做，這個部分以臺灣的分工來講，主要都是人事總處比較負責……就是去做宣導、做一些指引，他那邊會比我們這邊來得更有效，這部分我來跟總處的同仁再談談有什麼方式也可以跟機關講，因為主要是機關有疑慮、用人機關有疑慮，怎麼樣的做法也許可以減少他們的疑慮，大家鼓勵來做這個事情。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:29:44.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:29:50.645000+08:00","text":"COVID-19的時候大家就努力在做，可是COVID-19之後大家比較多的就又回復原來的狀況。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:29:51.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:29:54.146000+08:00","text":"對，我想這部分還是希望積極地鼓勵。對。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:29:54.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:30:05.990000+08:00","text":"這次去澳洲，我也詢問了他們的公務體系，他們的公務體系也提出非常多不同的彈性工作、遠距工作或其他各種工作方式，讓公務人員可以兼顧家庭和工作。","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:30:07.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:30:09.351000+08:00","text":"這個部分也需要部長一起來努力。好。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:30:12.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:30:22.963000+08:00","text":"就像我們剛剛一直在講的，有數據才有真相，所以我也希望你們提供的獎助方案可以延續行政決策的概念來繼續執行。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:30:24.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:30:26.767000+08:00","text":"這個部分我後續也會再跟部長約時間討論。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:30:26.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:30:26.987000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:30:26.987000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:30:28.268000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:30:28.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:30:47.184000+08:00","text":"有關考績法，今年1月份民眾在公共政策網路參與平台提出要檢討公務人員考績法，今天也有非常多委員都討論到這一點。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:30:48.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:30:53.669000+08:00","text":"基層公務人員對這件事情的意見表達非常踴躍，兩個禮拜就達到連署門檻。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:30:56.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:31:13.385000+08:00","text":"我自己上網看的時候，發現大家對幾個議題非常有意見，第一是考績比例僵化，難以反映實際的工作表現，甚至你也可以看到我截圖的這些留言，就是大家都會提到輪流得到乙等。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:31:14.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:31:29.503000+08:00","text":"我剛剛也聽到部長的一些回應，就是未來不會再有甲乙丙丁制，可能會有一個比較頂尖、拔尖的概念，我想這可能會比較像統計學左尾分布的概念。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:31:32.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:31:55.072000+08:00","text":"我知道目前你們有篩選出模範公務人員，這是非常、非常頂尖，體制上的確是有的，但是不是可能把它分布成像本席圖表所示的建議，就是在「稱職」和非常頂尖之間有一個「頂尖」的部分？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:31:55.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:31:57.834000+08:00","text":"因為這樣才有更多人可以被選到這個位子。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:31:59.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:32:00.036000+08:00","text":"部長的看法怎麼樣？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:32:01.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:32:04.275000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實我們的概念會比較像這張圖，但也不會那麼複雜，應該是這樣講。","quality":0.606},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:32:04.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:32:04.815000+08:00","text":"所以你們的圖比較像本席出示的另外這張嗎？","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:32:11.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:32:14.645000+08:00","text":"比較像是……我們不會設定比例。好的。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:32:15.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:32:53.168000+08:00","text":"我不設定比例，會比較像……以我對公務同仁實際的瞭解，絕大部分同仁都是稱職的，他們就是被交辦工作、努力工作、把該做的事情做好，這樣我們就認為他是一個很稱職的公務人員，但確實有很少數的同仁真的表現更好，我們就會放到……就是我們要著重的是這邊，如果同仁真的不符合法律規定的一些……我們未來會規定不可以有哪些工作行為，如果真的有這種行為，就會被列在「未達良好」的部分，我想我們大概會用這種方式。","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:32:53.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:33:09.859000+08:00","text":"這一張圖的概念其實是說，我也相信大部分的公務人員都非常認真，可是體制上如果像現在只有非常優秀的模範機制，就會讓很多人的表現其實已經超越「稱職」，可是沒有辦法到這種拔尖的狀態……","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:33:10.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:33:14.904000+08:00","text":"這是兩個不同的概念，模範公務人員和工作考績是不一樣的。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:33:15.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:33:15.845000+08:00","text":"沒錯、沒錯，就是希望……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:33:17.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:33:17.947000+08:00","text":"我們這兩個是區隔的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:33:18.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:33:18.887000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，就是區隔的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:33:19.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:33:30.558000+08:00","text":"再來是針對一些待觀察或是您剛剛講的比較有狀況的公務人員，他們如果需要輔導的話，我們是不是可以有具體的輔導或考核機制來幫助他們前進呢？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:33:32.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:33:49.768000+08:00","text":"我們希望未來任何機關如果要讓同仁落入「未達良好」這個category，平常就要有一些很好的譬如紀錄、觀察，甚至覺得他不好，期中就要給他一些改善的機會，我想是一定會有這個機制。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:33:51.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:34:02.935000+08:00","text":"我問這個問題的同時也想請教，我知道公務人員考績法已經在討論當中，有沒有可能在這個會期就送到立法院審議呢？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:34:03.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:34:05.717000+08:00","text":"我們會以此為努力目標。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:34:08.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:34:08.279000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:34:15.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:34:52.839000+08:00","text":"本席最後要請教秘書長，2025年我們完成公務人員保障法的修法，正式將公務人員職場霸凌的處理機制納入母法，保訓會後續會依據母法修訂「公務人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法」，但是和職安法、性工法相比，目前公務體系的相關保護措施還是放在子法的層級，缺乏明確的法律規範，公務人員保障法只有寫到「具體有效措施」，和其他法律明確定義處理過程之權利義務其實是有差別的。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:34:53.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:35:17.098000+08:00","text":"如果我們今天從法制的角度來看，根據中央法規標準法第五條，關於人民之權利義務事項，都應以法律定之，所以公務機關在職場霸凌中應採取哪些保護措施或做相關的規定，因為牽涉到當事人的權利義務，應該要採取法律所謂的例示原則才對。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:35:17.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:35:36.159000+08:00","text":"所以我在想，我們是不是有可能在涉及人身安全的職場霸凌案件之中，把機關應採取之保護措施以法律明確列之，避免各機關認定不一，甚至消極處理的問題。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:35:36.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:35:38.802000+08:00","text":"是不是有可能做這樣的研議呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:35:43.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:35:52.547000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果從法律的層次來看，我們的保障法跟安衛辦法的架構好像跟職安法的結構不一樣……","quality":0.488},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:35:52.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:35:53.708000+08:00","text":"對，不一樣！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:35:53.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:36:12.178000+08:00","text":"不過我想即便它一部分是在安衛辦法裡面，對機關的指引跟拘束的效果還是一樣強，最主要是因為公部門的同仁大家都會依照規定，比較不會有違法的狀況。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:36:13.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:36:16.940000+08:00","text":"至於規範的細節有沒有不明確，這部分我請主委來幫忙說明。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:36:17.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:36:17.160000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡主任委員秀涓","start":"2026-03-19T10:36:20.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:36:42.960000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，您剛剛提到的那個問題，因為保障法第十九條其實是在民國92年新增的，對於安衛辦法的授權、法源規定在那邊，涉及法律執行的細節或執行面的相關部分，就授權放在安衛辦法。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"蔡主任委員秀涓","start":"2026-03-19T10:36:43.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:36:52.628000+08:00","text":"但是委員剛才非常關切公務人員權利義務的部分，包含職場霸凌的定義、它的……","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:36:52.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:36:53.208000+08:00","text":"具體措施。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡主任委員秀涓","start":"2026-03-19T10:36:56.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:37:07.159000+08:00","text":"就是委員最關心的裁處或行政罰鍰等相關法律違反效果，其實都是放在保障法裡面。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"蔡主任委員秀涓","start":"2026-03-19T10:37:09.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:37:10.221000+08:00","text":"以上跟委員簡要報告。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡主任委員秀涓","start":"2026-03-19T10:37:10.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:37:22.491000+08:00","text":"第二個部分就是誠如剛剛我們秘書長所講，您關心的這些部分，在保障法和安衛辦法裡面，它其實是搭配得非常好。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"蔡主任委員秀涓","start":"2026-03-19T10:37:23.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:37:58.370000+08:00","text":"我們有去收集各機關和相關申訴人的一些看法，目前都沒有人反映需要再把它放到法律裡面，因為目前整個保障法有104條，已經是很大了，但是委員所關切的部分，我們未來還有現在也會持續滾動檢討，如果有必要把它放到法律裡面，也會進行相關的研議。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"蔡主任委員秀涓","start":"2026-03-19T10:37:58.370000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:37:59.651000+08:00","text":"以上報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-19T10:37:59.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:38:05.035500+08:00","text":"我還是希望可以去研議一下，是不是3個月之後給我一份研議的報告，好不好？好。謝謝。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"蔡主任委員秀涓","start":"2026-03-19T10:38:05.535500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:38:06.678357+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T10:38:06.978357+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:38:08.406929+08:00","text":"謝謝張委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T10:38:08.706929+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:38:12.135500+08:00","text":"接下來有請羅智強委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T10:38:12.435500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:38:23.006929+08:00","text":"我們司委會沒有羅委員常來之後，感覺好像特別冷清，今天您來了，可以給我們更多的指導。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}