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只剩血汗與過勞誰還想當公務員無人意識到嚴重性 全民將付出代價這是一場無聲的集體告別在座有很多的公務員的我們的夥伴那事實上 旅長也知道 我曾經說過我自己也是第一份工作是公務員當兵退伍以後"},{"start":74.639,"end":99.109,"text":"通過高考在公家機關住過兩年所以我非常非常能夠體會這個時代的差別就是以前當公務員跟現在當公務員我覺得那個榮譽感我覺得是有很大的不一樣當時社會或是政府的國家的政策對公務員是非常在乎尊重跟禮遇的"},{"start":99.741,"end":126.101,"text":"但這幾年我覺得有些東西是改變了好 那我現在要請教一下這個天下雜誌它特別強調缺工的現象缺工啦 公務員的工啦那學界跟媒體也都一直在指出這個問題的嚴重性那我想請問現在公務員離退跟缺額的狀況如何你認為嚴重嗎"},{"start":128.773,"end":129.116,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":131.026,"end":158.872,"text":"離退的問題我覺得它跟那個制度設計有關這個先不談但是缺工的部分我覺得它的確在某些部分某些特定的領域尤其是它會反映在特定的區域上面會變得的確非常的嚴重那就這一點所以我們也一直在跟行政院這邊討論因為從教考訓用到流採好幾個面向不是完全考試院決策的範圍那這裡面有大家都一起來努力就怎麼樣可以來提升其實我們有一些工作圈在推動相關的工作"},{"start":159.272,"end":177.59,"text":"基本上我看到了很多數字我個人是覺得相當嚴重那以2024年公務員的辭職3094人退休9758人人數跟占比都創五年新高我不知道去年的數字狀況如何 有改善嗎"},{"start":181.111,"end":200.762,"text":"跟委員報這應該是去年2024年的一個狀況2025年的數字應該還沒有出來因為現在才3月份那你覺得呢 以部長你現在有改善嗎退休的部分一定會增加因為我們有追60歲的我問到我知道 是退休我先放的我又問辭職"},{"start":202.323,"end":216.218,"text":"辭職的部分我想差不多可能在那個數字但是數字真的還沒出來除了說今天辭職退休離退的人數佔比創新高報考人數當然我們已經談很久了"},{"start":217.459,"end":234.939,"text":"一直在下跌 大幅的減少那其中根據統計 中央部會缺額率最高就是包括外交部 陸委會 訴發部 行政院 院本部都名列前馬為什麼這些部會會特別名列前馬我跟委員報告 我確實看了那個報告那我可以講說 他的那個算法"},{"start":235.559,"end":256.918,"text":"跟實務上真的有落差 對就分子分母的算法跟實務上的落差那用我們比較精確技術上講他真的高估蠻多的高估蠻多的那我現在問嘛 中央部會如果說他說的這幾個部會不是缺額率最高的那哪些部會會比較高那實際上這部分總署負責並不是那個總署負責 對對對就實際上數字在總署 我再回頭跟你講"},{"start":259.52,"end":288.071,"text":"其實我覺得報告裡面有點到一些問題也是我在了解確實在我們的公務體系當中很多公務員面臨到的問題包括業務膨脹但待遇不夠那缺二率攀高工作量變大這是惡性循環嘛然後接下來公務體系如果開始淪為血汗工廠大家更不敢去那另外剛剛我看前面秘書長也在備詢的時候也提到一件事就是說公務人員的考試跟一般民間是不一樣的"},{"start":288.931,"end":317.534,"text":"你光備考的那個所謂的成本就非常的高所以當你的所謂的民間的公司跟公務員現在能夠提供的保障大家覺得差別不大或是甚至相對來講限制更多的時候那為什麼要花那麼多時間去準備這公務員的考試呢所以這中間就是出現一個我覺得很大的一個落差那這落差我覺得政府實質上我覺得最大責任還是在我們的中央政府手上啦"},{"start":318.001,"end":328.832,"text":"你的考試的政策你的所謂的全序的政策你的所謂人事的政策如果沒有辦法提供足夠的誘因的話就像剛剛部長講秘書長講的說想要減科來去減少他們進入的門檻可是我就要問一件事情"},{"start":334.338,"end":351.93,"text":"那以前其實所謂的考試的門檻相對高的時候並沒有影響公務人員的報考的意願那為什麼現在要用到說檢科的方式降低他的所謂的時間成本來增加意願他會顯現現在時代上一個很嚴重的差別嗎Misra你覺得呢"},{"start":353.331,"end":380.149,"text":"我覺得比較大的差別就是說民間的薪資水準跟民間求職的機會多不多當這個都比較高的時候公部門這邊就沒有那麼高的誘因我們看到某些時候就是說當民間大家年輕人覺得求職比較困難他可能會有來報考啦他也許就試一下但是那個而且在我們上一代的時候大家也覺得說公務員是真的比較有保障那是因為民間沒有那麼多誘因跟這個蓬勃發展的機會"},{"start":382.85,"end":411.833,"text":"至少我自己在報考公務員的年代那時候也稱之為台灣經濟起飛年代所以民間其實還是工作非常熱門的但是公務員報考那個政府機關工作他有一部分還是基於榮譽感他覺得做這個工作覺得是為國效力是也受到國家的尊重但是我覺得這幾年我覺得文官的所謂尊嚴跟自信心是受到一些衝擊我現在引一些東西我覺得希望我們考試院我們考試院是文官最大的後盾"},{"start":412.694,"end":434.852,"text":"那媒體的一些報導我覺得你們也是參考一下他說政治人為博聲量廣開議題戰場讓公務員忙得不可開交那社群時代加速輿論發酵速度又讓文官體制淪為回應的螺絲釘那裡面直接點名行政院秘書長張敦涵說一上任要求各部會照三餐回報於情"},{"start":435.692,"end":461.307,"text":"結果公務體系被迫化身成社群小編然後整天清早然後24小時要開始去分類收集輿情然後變成小編在粉專發文那這個現象我說真的當然跟現在時代改變有關係啦可是你怎麼樣讓公務員今天能夠不是負擔那麼重的所謂的政府的內宣或外宣的工作"},{"start":461.767,"end":476.314,"text":"能夠專注在自己本務上的一個所謂的經營創造一個好的環境我這需要考試院跟行政院去多去磋商去努力去保護我們公務員的工作跟尊嚴以上謝謝委員意見"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:38:16.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:38:16.958000+08:00","text":"有請考試院秘書長劉建忻，還有銓敘部施部長。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T10:38:16.958000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:38:17.958000+08:00","text":"請秘書長還有施部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:38:17.958000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:38:18.958000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:38:18.958000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:38:19.958000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:38:17.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:39:07.393000+08:00","text":"秘書長、部長，我唸一段天下雜誌最近的報導給兩位聽一下：臺灣公職報考數大減10萬，公部門運作亮紅燈，正讓國家走向惡性循環，當公職榮譽感消失，只剩血汗與過勞，誰還想當公務員？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:39:07.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:39:12.196000+08:00","text":"無人意識到的嚴重性，全民將付出代價。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:39:12.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:39:15.438000+08:00","text":"這是一場無聲的集體告別。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:39:16.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:39:47.126000+08:00","text":"在座有很多公務員夥伴，事實上秘書長也知道，我曾經說過自己第一份工作是公務員，我當兵退伍以後通過高考，在公家機關做過2年，所以我非常非常能夠體會時代的差別，以前當公務員跟現在當公務員，我覺得榮譽感有很大的不一樣。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:39:47.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:39:57.523000+08:00","text":"當時的社會或政府、國家的政策對公務員是非常在乎、尊重跟禮遇的，但這幾年我覺得有些東西是改變了。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:39:58.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:40:13.615000+08:00","text":"好，我現在要請教一下，天下雜誌特別強調缺「公」的現象，缺「公」是指公務員的「公」，學界跟媒體也都一直指出這個問題的嚴重性。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:40:14.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:40:19.740000+08:00","text":"我想請問，現在公務員離退跟缺額的狀況如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:40:21.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:40:21.101000+08:00","text":"您認為嚴重嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:40:24.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:40:38.309000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，離退的問題，我覺得它跟制度的設計有關，這個先不談，但是缺「公」的部分，我覺得的確在某些部分、某些特定的領域，尤其是會反映在特定的區域上，確實非常嚴重。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:40:39.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:40:53.852000+08:00","text":"就這一點，我們也一直在跟行政院討論，因為從教、考、訓、用到留才有好幾個面向，不完全是考試院決策的範圍，這裡面要靠大家一起來努力，看要怎麼樣來提升，其實我們有一些工作圈在推動相關的工作。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:40:54.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:12.190000+08:00","text":"基本上我看到了很多數字，我個人是覺得相當嚴重，以2024年公務員辭職了3,094人，退休了9,758人，人數跟占比都創5年新高，不知道去年的數字狀況如何？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:12.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:12.590000+08:00","text":"有改善嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:16.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:22.495000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這用的應該是2024（去）年的狀況，2025年的數字應該……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:22.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:23.155000+08:00","text":"還沒有出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:23.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:24.236000+08:00","text":"還沒有出來，因為現在才3月。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:24.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:25.176000+08:00","text":"那你覺得呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:25.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:27.798000+08:00","text":"以部長現在的認知，有改善嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:27.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:29.119000+08:00","text":"因為退休的部分一定會增加。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:29.119000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:30.519000+08:00","text":"對，退休會增加，但我講的是辭……","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:30.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:33.541000+08:00","text":"因為我們有「追60歲」的問題。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:33.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:35.762000+08:00","text":"我知道，退休的部分我先放著，我要問辭職。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:37.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:40.227000+08:00","text":"辭職的部分，我想差不多可能也在那個數字。好。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:41.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:43.470000+08:00","text":"但是數字真的還沒有出來。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:43.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:41:54.522000+08:00","text":"除了今天辭職、退休、離退的人數占比創下新高，報考人數的部分當然我們已經談很久了，也是一直在下跌，呈現大幅地減少。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:41:55.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:42:05.314000+08:00","text":"其中根據統計，中央部會缺額率最高的，包括外交部、陸委會、數發部、行政院院本部都名列前茅，為什麼這些部會會特別名列前茅？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:42:05.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:42:12.721000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我確實看了那個報告，但我必須講，它的那個算法跟實務上真的有落差。對。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:42:12.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:42:19.367000+08:00","text":"就是分子、分母的算法跟實務上有落差，用我們比較精確的技術上來講，它真的高估蠻多的。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:42:19.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:42:20.608000+08:00","text":"高估蠻多的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:42:20.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:42:26.393000+08:00","text":"那我現在問，如果它說的這幾個中央部會不是缺額率最高的，那哪些部會目前缺額率比較高？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:42:26.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:42:30.437000+08:00","text":"實際上這部分是由總處負責，並不是由考試院負責的。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:42:30.437000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:42:31.437000+08:00","text":"是人事行政總處負責的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:42:30.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:42:30.677000+08:00","text":"對，就是實際上數字在總處……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:42:30.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:42:36.741000+08:00","text":"我再回頭跟你講，其實我覺得報告裡面有點到一些問題……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-03-19T10:42:36.741000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:42:37.741000+08:00","text":"沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:42:36.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:42:55.368000+08:00","text":"也是我在了解的，確實在我們的公務體系當中有很多公務員面臨到的問題，包括業務膨脹，但待遇不夠；缺額率攀高，工作量變大，這是惡性循環；然後接下來，公務體系如果開始淪為血汗工廠，大家就更不敢去。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:42:56.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:43:22.926000+08:00","text":"另外，剛剛我看前面秘書長在備詢的時候也提到一件事，公務人員的考試跟一般民間是不一樣的，光是備考的成本就非常地高，所以當所謂民間的公司跟公務員現在能夠提供的保障大家覺得差別不大，或者甚至相對來講限制更多的時候，我為什麼要花那麼多時間去準備公務員的考試呢？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:43:23.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:43:26.889000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得這中間就出現了一個很大的落差。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:43:27.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:43:42.671000+08:00","text":"面對這個落差，我覺得最大的責任事實上還是在中央政府手上，包括考試的政策、銓敘的政策、人事的政策，如果沒有辦法提供足夠誘因的話，就像剛剛部長、秘書長講的，想要用減科去減少他們進入的門檻。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:43:42.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:44:03.447000+08:00","text":"可是我就要問一件事情，以前所謂考試門檻相對高的時候，並沒有影響到公務人員報考的意願，為什麼現在要用到減科的方式降低他所謂的時間成本來增加意願？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:44:03.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:44:06.910000+08:00","text":"這就顯現了現在時代上的一個很嚴重的差別嘛，秘書長你覺得呢？","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:44:08.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:44:19.458000+08:00","text":"我覺得比較大的差別可能就是民間的薪資水準跟民間求職的機會多不多，當這些都比較高的時候，公部門這邊就沒有那麼高的誘因。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:44:19.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:44:35.149000+08:00","text":"我們看到某些時候，當民間的年輕人覺得求職比較困難，他可能會來報考，他想說也許就是試一下，而且我們的上一代，大家也覺得公務員是真的比較有保障，那是因為民間沒有那麼多誘因跟蓬勃發展的機會。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:44:37.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:44:56.925000+08:00","text":"其實這一點秘書長我有點保留，至少我自己在報考公務員的年代，那時候也稱之為臺灣經濟起飛的年代，所以民間的工作其實還是非常熱門，但是公務員報考政府機關的工作，有一部分還是基於榮譽感，他覺得做這個工作是在為國效力，也受到國家的尊重。","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:44:57.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:45:02.429000+08:00","text":"但我覺得這幾年文官所謂的尊嚴跟自信心是受到一些衝擊。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:45:02.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:45:10.336000+08:00","text":"我現在要引一些東西，希望我們考試院……考試院是文官最大的後盾，媒體有一些報導，我覺得你們也要參考一下。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:45:12.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:45:23.586000+08:00","text":"它說政治人物為搏聲量、廣開議題戰場，讓公務員忙得不可開交，社群時代加速輿論發酵速度，又讓文官體制淪為回應的螺絲釘。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:45:23.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:45:42.799000+08:00","text":"裡面就直接點名行政院秘書長張惇涵，他一上任就要求各部會「照三餐回報輿情」，結果公務體系被迫化身成社群小編，然後整天、清早、24小時就要開始去分類、蒐集輿情，然後變成小編在粉專發文。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-03-19T10:45:44.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:46:09.714000+08:00","text":"面對這個現象，我說真的，當然跟現在時代的改變有關係，可是你怎麼讓公務員今天能夠不用負擔那麼重的所謂政府內宣或外宣的工作，能夠專注在自己本務上的經營，創造一個好的環境，我真的希望考試院跟行政院多去磋商、去努力，保護我們公務員的工作跟尊嚴。以上。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-03-19T10:46:11.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-19T10:46:11.314000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的意見。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T10:46:11.814000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:46:13.242571+08:00","text":"謝謝羅委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-19T10:46:13.542571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-19T10:46:17.542571+08:00","text":"接下來我們有請鍾佳濱委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}