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各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大任貴委員會報告現行育證與受刑人處理機制之制度檢討並被質詢深感榮幸 以下請就本部相關業務責要報告如下口頭要報告未經支柱 請各位委員參閱書面"},{"start":2117.447,"end":2139.267,"text":"我們現行的累進處理制度是源於這個新型累進處理條例它最早是在民國35年制定,36年實施那共計77條,迄今修正7次但是呢,自95年7月1日後就沒有再修正過了那該制度呢,對於受刑人具有設定階段目標培養責任意識等功能"},{"start":2139.947,"end":2158.846,"text":"但是因為年代久遠許多的相關權利事項疊經司法解釋實務見解均有所調整本部矯正署也在107年、108年分別委託研究並綜合相關意見作為制度檢討方向之參佐"},{"start":2160.667,"end":2180.594,"text":"相關的意見包含考核的方式非常繁雜級別的處理也不合時宜譬如說條文中關於收音機或照片等等這個條文相當老舊已經不符現代的需求一般監獄的縮行日數跟外監差異過大以及縮行會影響假釋要件的執行等等"},{"start":2182.094,"end":2209.825,"text":"整查等等的執行的現況都有精進檢討改進的空間所以也提出了短中長期的改進的計畫目前一般的處遇的狀況包含我們有很多的教化及文康的活動包含最重要的就是要來強化家庭跟社會的支持所以各角色機關都會在重大的節日來辦理面對面的懇親會"},{"start":2211.245,"end":2228.437,"text":"並且在平常就用各種方式協助受刑人跟家庭保持聯繫讓他們未來復歸社會來預作準備另外我們也結合相當多的社會資源當然教會志工還有演講以及圖書室、書冊等等的"},{"start":2231.098,"end":2251.248,"text":"特別針對高齡或身心障礙所有人我們也有開設相關的視訊課程或活動各項才藝班、文攤活動還有受刑人的教育事項他們都可以在監獄裡面來從事補習教育或等等的進修都有可能也辦理受刑人個別化的處遇"},{"start":2252.888,"end":2272.773,"text":"計劃跟這個針對特殊族群的另外訂定像高齡者身心障礙或是自殺風險者的加強的處理計劃那麼在受刑人出監前也會依照個別的這個評估的結果有必要時便會召開這個轉嫌的會議引導地方中央各機關的網絡單位來銜接這個受刑人的處理那麼作業"},{"start":2277.814,"end":2293.473,"text":"勞作金的部分 請各位參閱書面那麼我們現在 還有衛生醫療那麼未來的處於的經濟方向 最主要呢累進處於的制度 前面說明許多需要這個改進的空間所以呢 這個"},{"start":2294.935,"end":2312.924,"text":"短期內我們就行政的方式可以調整譬如說收容機照片等等我們已經做了調整但是關於縮型日數差異等等這一些必須要透過修法來進行所以我們將來會用所謂的階段儲育制度來取代現在的累進儲育制度"},{"start":2313.604,"end":2340.674,"text":"那因為因應了憲法法庭113年憲判之第二號判決關於這個無期徒刑撤銷假釋的這個判決那因為跟我們累計處遇條例也是連動的所以我們目前已經請繳稅署加速完成這個部內的審查客證辦理送行政院來審查審查中會盡速的配合這個修法的期程來提出於大院進行大院會來支持這個修法的這個進度"},{"start":2342.062,"end":2366.85,"text":"那麼未來很重要的是因為我們高齡化社會 監獄也高齡化了所以我們在未來1.5年期預定要推動收容人樂齡健康照護計畫改善監所裡面對於高齡者的處遇那麼已經在1.4年的5.6日3號進行核定目前積極的爭取預算經費中那麼希望明年開始就可以來進行"},{"start":2369.15,"end":2375.372,"text":"另外關於加入106年納入全民健保之後醫療費用的問題請大家參閱矯正機關的立場一定會全力協助各醫療院所來解決這個問題"},{"start":2386.455,"end":2399.984,"text":"另外很重要的是目前我們也加入心理、社工等等的專輔人力也像行政院請徵的這一些的經費我們會積極的改善我們在監所內處遇的方向盡量朝向個別化處遇跟精進協助輔導受刑人未來復歸社會的方向來進行另外我們也會加強的來尋找作業的協力廠商"},{"start":2416.975,"end":2431.464,"text":"這個跟上社會的腳步持續追求好這個美和好優良的作業廠商創造對受請人有利的復歸環境以促使受請人該回向上順利復歸社會以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝好謝謝那現在我們來"},{"start":2444.295,"end":2460.46,"text":"其餘的 剛剛黃次長報告完了啦其他的我看今天就其他人就不用再做過多的發言法務部系統嘛 其餘的書面報告機關還有沒有口頭補充時事次長 你覺得怎麼樣 還是你要起來記得哎呦 漂亮喔 來署長來"},{"start":2478.119,"end":2493.133,"text":"趙偉早 還有各位委員早今天代表衛福部到貴委員會來做專案報告以下我就就矯正器官受用人的醫療照顧簡單的跟各位委員做一個說明"},{"start":2494.294,"end":2515.009,"text":"健保法是在100年的時候修訂二代健保開始將矯正機關的收容人納入在健保的服務對象然後在102年開始全面的推動矯正機關收容人的醫療服務計畫以三年為一期所以今年是114年是第五期的計畫的推動"},{"start":2516.59,"end":2544.466,"text":"那麼從過去近年的實施那麼大概一共有125家醫療院所到54所的矯正機關那麼提供這個服務那麼每月大概是2750次的這個門診的服務涵蓋到西醫各專科牙醫中醫那麼還包含介護門診介護住院等等那近三年大概"},{"start":2545.206,"end":2565.804,"text":"每年的預算都是執行大概在16.54億左右那今年呢我們擴編到19.28億那麼這增加的部分呢是除了原本因為這個高齡化這個醫療服務增加之外那麼我們也對這個提供服務的這個醫療院所用點子保障都是1.1塊錢"},{"start":2567.205,"end":2587.477,"text":"那麼同時還有一些加成跟獎勵的費用 這個是在一般的醫療服務的部分那另外呢 也提供一些公共衛生的計畫包含疾病的篩檢 像C型肝炎 潛伏性的肺結核那麼另外也提供藥引介質的服務 這個是比較偏向公共衛生的服務"},{"start":2588.317,"end":2613.249,"text":"那另外在這個行政督導的部分呢那麼這個已經納入在各地方縣市衛生局他把這個衛生業務的督導考核也列入了過去比較沒有那近年來都已經把矯正機關裡面的衛生業務也納入地方縣市衛生局的督導業務包含感染管制預防保健疾病"},{"start":2613.909,"end":2639.508,"text":"還有食品、藥物管理等等都已經列入了那近期我們持續的在改善的還包含這個放寬一些用藥的規定那我們大概在矯正機關我們一般民眾的平均每年的就醫次數大概已經來到16點多次那矯正機關裡面也有11次所以跟我們一般的民眾的差距並不會太大那麼另外在這個"},{"start":2640.669,"end":2662.249,"text":"因為特殊性的關係遠距醫療我們也開放譬如說像一些皮膚科或精神科專科醫師比較少可以透過遠距的方式來進行治療診斷的我們也開放了所以近年來有這些進行至於安全的問題大家都很關心的我們則是有訂了"},{"start":2665.711,"end":2682.656,"text":"這個醫療服務機構執行這個計畫的一些注意事項裡面包含一些安全應該注意的我們也納入在我們這個辦法裡頭以上簡單的跟各位委員做一個報告說明再請委員會指教各位委員繼續給我們支持 謝謝"},{"start":2685.765,"end":2712.552,"text":"好,謝謝,是署長啦啊,等於是口頭補充報告,看得到那個我覺得報告的人,那個內容很具體啊可不可以提供一下書面給委員會,好不好這個一併讓我們參考一下啦那,司法院剛有要口頭做補充司法院有來嗎?好,那個陳廷長嘛,是不是?有沒有?"},{"start":2715.874,"end":2723.103,"text":"書面是啥 口頭就不補充了看你 好 我是說看你有機會來了想講話就多多講話"},{"start":2727.493,"end":2755.14,"text":"來 那機關代表就已經報告完畢了相關的書面的內容請各位來參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始來進行詢答本會委員詢答時間八分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘非本會委員詢答時間五分鐘並不再延長上午我們就十點半來截止發言登記第一次來可能我時間"},{"start":2756.5,"end":2785.553,"text":"走給延長一下來請第一位王逸川委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我們請次長跟這個署長 謝謝健保 健保"},{"start":2788.161,"end":2804.917,"text":"委員長我先請教健保署這個受刑人的健保費如果是依附在家屬下就是家屬繳那如果什麼都沒有了就欠錢"},{"start":2807.479,"end":2821.907,"text":"我們這個如果真的是繳不出來的我們有一些這個協處機制那麼包含這個愛心專款啦不然如果他能來有能力繳的那麼我們有六類看看他本來他怎麼會有能力繳 要關在裡面"},{"start":2824.441,"end":2844.398,"text":"他自己如果有後續修立的時候,矯正機關有一個補助的機制可以嗎?對啊,可是那個錢應該都不多啊,我的意思是說如果他也沒什麼能力繳嘛,那家人也不讓他依附在下面嘛,他可能出獄的時候就先欠你錢了"},{"start":2846.008,"end":2871.506,"text":"因為現在在收容的時候就會改類變成第四類第二目第四類第二目的話那矯正機關會協助我們有編預算來處理這一塊那法務部會再跟當事人吹角嗎沒有 這個已經改列了改列了所以在這個署長你講那個健保的有一些跟錢有關的會是什麼"},{"start":2873.203,"end":2898.85,"text":"喔 那是服務費 就是說他的健保費沒有問題繳了 那個保費啦但是在接受服務的時候 要給我部分負擔一般的民眾都有部分負擔 阿姨主要是部分負擔的部分繳不出來阿這要幫人修喔 那就沒錢了 你還要修阿這依法就是要用啦 所以我們是希望說喔 能夠...他整個要給醫生說 阿姨不要給我開到那個部分負擔"},{"start":2902.264,"end":2906.689,"text":"那這個費用就變成欠健保囉?這個法務部就不處理了嗎?那個委員我是不是請那個署長 責任署署長來跟我們說明報告一下"},{"start":2926.467,"end":2948.721,"text":"報告委員我們法務部有編列大概14億多就是健保費用那至於是說部分負擔就像民眾一樣可能掛號費是150然後部分負擔是50塊就是交個200塊那他如果是說掛號費或是部分負擔他繳不出來"},{"start":2949.702,"end":2959.939,"text":"其實這個是小額的他如果是弱勢團體其實我們有相關的相關的弱勢團體的補助一般民眾"},{"start":2963.216,"end":2983.621,"text":"經濟困難的我們會有補助公益金也好或是醫院也有一些社會福利金但是我們還可以協助他向健保申請分期繳納或是申請貸款如果他欠的比較多的話"},{"start":2984.781,"end":3000.786,"text":"提這個的目的啊,是有些這個受刑人嘛,他就要改過自新啊嘛,啊怪基因之後他就要出了嘛,啊出也舉目無親嘛,妻離子善啦嘛,啊他也沒收入都沒有啊,結果他走出那個監獄的時候,他就欠人家錢啊,他現在欠的是政府啊,我的意思是這樣,有可能嘛齁"},{"start":3007.312,"end":3029.48,"text":"他出獄之後我們就有這個協處方案在我們各分區他都有一些這個經濟弱勢者困難的這個協助分期付款或補助都有好那這個兩位署長請回好謝謝市長請問一下這個受刑人在監獄裡頭可以接受大學教育嗎"},{"start":3030.485,"end":3040.517,"text":"有 我們今天報告有提到接受大學教育就是空中大學那科系自己選對不對那請問這些人怎麼交報告"},{"start":3043.069,"end":3063.32,"text":"這個細節的部分我們是不是還是請署長這邊來跟我們說一下 不好意思就是說它一來 客人也不可以用網路嘛如果老師想教 老師說要教報告 他要怎麼用是 報告委員 像這種參加空大的他本身可能一般來講 那個學習的期間會延長"},{"start":3064.961,"end":3086.047,"text":"所以他們也是按照空大相關要提的報告 他們還是會來提只是他可能寫的學分也好 或是他能夠有的時間我知道 可是因為他寫報告他不能上網啊他也可以用其他的方式啦 當然是不能上網他沒有其他方式 監獄裡面什麼都沒有 他沒有搞報告"},{"start":3088.001,"end":3112.01,"text":"我們相關的他寫的那個專業歌目比如說相關的參考資料他也是可以取得到的啊不一定是要用網路網路所以他們就是相關的資料取得之後他可以提交書面這是沒有問題的我知道啦那這個來來次長這署長這樣講你看現在大學生啊寫報告沒上網是要怎麼寫"},{"start":3118.4,"end":3124.042,"text":"就直接只看老師給的教科書跟講義這樣就能夠寫期末報告這很難吧"},{"start":3129.473,"end":3150.357,"text":"因為上網涉及到很多監獄管理的問題所以可能也未必適合說因為還有在就學就全面來開放所以這個部分可能我們再研議看看就是說這個接受大學教育因為他不是只有背書或者是只有翻課本"},{"start":3151.057,"end":3175.995,"text":"那如果他這個老師空大老師上課的方式希望學生交報告那顯然給他的這個參考資料啊就要更完整啊不然他英文就是老師一本書交講義然後隔著螢幕聽老師上課然後最後他就能夠交出報告這個對一般大學生來說啊這個聽起來是不可思議"},{"start":3176.929,"end":3201.207,"text":"是 我們再請蔣介石來研議就是說專門對於有這個上進學習的需求的部分看怎麼樣來處理就是來協助他們啦來協助他們報告委員 我們空大有兩種一種是協分班一種是協製班就是他可以拿到協試那一般協分班他"},{"start":3202.108,"end":3217.717,"text":"也比較簡單他就相關的資料搜尋好寫書面報告之後他就提交給我知道啦他就沒辦法搜尋他協志班因為他可能還有其他的活動作業所以他可能會比一般民眾"},{"start":3218.678,"end":3238.847,"text":"他的演習時間要拉長他們都很樂意可以拿到在執行又可以拿到學位他們也很樂意會用工具去收集最後一個是請教一下我們的受刑人如果有身心障礙你們這個處遇機制裡頭有一個分數叫做作業"},{"start":3240.339,"end":3253.213,"text":"他可能要出來做一些東西嘛那他這個如果身心障礙這家都沒辦法那這個分數他怎麼得報告委員我們有所謂的和還儲益"},{"start":3254.724,"end":3276.524,"text":"對於那種比較嚴重一點的我們會給他一個優待在作業方面因為他事實上沒有達到沒有辦法達到那麼高的效率但是我們基於人權的考量會有所謂的合環處理各機關會把這些相關適合合環處理的報到我們署裡面我們署裡面會來核准"},{"start":3277.643,"end":3297.069,"text":"所以這個他的作業分數的計算可能就跟一般的壽星人不一樣會打八折他可以打折啦可以打八折責任分數責任分數就變少嘛會變少所以他得到的分數扣過去就分數會比較高一點嘛"},{"start":3298.57,"end":3315.441,"text":"那剛剛這個次長報告的時候有提到啊什麼收音機啦我請教一下我們現在的受刑人在裡頭啊到底可不可以看電視台啊這個應該細節給他講那應該我就據我的了解是有好那可不可以看爭論節目啊"},{"start":3318.217,"end":3341.132,"text":"包括那個委員如果有一些有所謂的進見的方面我們會參考法官進見的內容如果他有說政論節目不行或是跟他相關有關的消息不行我們那個是不會給他看那個台的一般是可以一般是可以那就是幾台可以看幾台"},{"start":3343.055,"end":3352.632,"text":"這個幾台可能就不一定吧每個地區的台數不一樣所以我們可以看幾點"},{"start":3354.397,"end":3373.022,"text":"一般我們沿著上這種是大概九點就熄燈但是在六日可能會延長一個小時到十點才熄燈但是前提是不能開大聲音響有的是聽耳機不要吵到別人那他九點以後繼續看也不會有事啊"},{"start":3374.164,"end":3397.257,"text":"主管會去糾正他早點睡覺生火作息主管會去糾正他但是假日他可以延長一點所以大部分都只有那個進鑒的進鑒的話就是在這一方面會管制會管制 進鑒會管制那其他的就是儲育的這個分手有夠那就會讓他看"},{"start":3398.834,"end":3419.515,"text":"對我們的階級處理現在都比較朝向人道化剛剛提到那個電視嘛電視原來是4級就可以但是收音機要3級我們在113年已經函試了這個因為這個之前是35年訂定那時候沒有電視那時候只有留聲機"},{"start":3420.536,"end":3431.418,"text":"所以留生機它變成是三級可以持有留生機那這些相關的機制你們再加速來處理好不好你們不是說你們要檢討嘛對不對好那謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝王逸川委員那剛剛義事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定現在我們先確定義事錄請問各位上次會議義事錄有錯誤跟遺漏"},{"start":3451.431,"end":3457.396,"text":"沒有的話 沒有錯誤跟遺漏的話 我們議事錄就確定我們接下來請黃國昌委員發言謝謝召委 麻煩有請法務部次長 矯正署署長請黃次長 周署長"},{"start":3475.289,"end":3500.244,"text":"兩位好 次長接下來的問題如果你不熟的話沒有關係請署長代打先不用先得到我的許可之前法務部說智慧安全監所好萊塢大片將成真搞大內宣非常的會我也希望智慧監所能夠真的落實能夠實現總是一個願景"},{"start":3504.926,"end":3528.587,"text":"我們的八德外域間啊花了納稅人將近29億元29億啊有一個興建統包的工程案我之前署長應該還記得啊我已經問過這件事了我們本來竣工的日期第一階段2022年3月2號"},{"start":3531.377,"end":3554.932,"text":"第二階段2022年11月9號現在是2025年啊到今天為止竣工了沒有請教報告委員現在我們第一階段是竣工第二階段還沒竣工但是我們預定我們希望在年底前可以2022年11月9號2022年11月9號"},{"start":3559.076,"end":3581.071,"text":"要竣工搞到現在2025年沒有竣工我上一次問你的時候你還記不記得你告訴我什麼時候要竣工還記不記得我們在這邊曾經有過的質詢你還記不記得忘記了那時候我們是希望說在上半年啦上半年就是六月份的時候來來來"},{"start":3583.53,"end":3589.915,"text":"你那時候跟我講什麼你那時候跟我講說2024年年底要完成了我有記錯嗎2024年那因為他有一些經營權的爭議那是廠商的問題嘛提和解關我們什麼事"},{"start":3602.847,"end":3630.235,"text":"那是廠商的問題嘛不管廠商是A經營 B經營 C經營 D經營跟政府之間簽的契約你敢得標你就要履約嘛搞到現在喔搞到現在喔我進一步看啊2025年上半年你去年跟我講年底要完成那部長今年"},{"start":3631.644,"end":3656.5,"text":"提給社會法治委員會的報告說上半年要完成上半年有完成嗎現在應該是已經要下半年了吧我們就是巴德盡量努力來完成我們來看一下你們怎麼樣要努力啦小戰署發函給巴德外議監說不要再延期了啦這是你們發的函嗎是"},{"start":3661.181,"end":3678.652,"text":"什麼時候 七月中要竣工 做得到嗎現在應該是希望說不要希望啦 做不做得到就給一個乾脆的答案現在要到年底喔年底完成 繼續做就對了你們矯正署自己都退縮了喔"},{"start":3679.483,"end":3699.367,"text":"你不是發函給巴德外一間7月15號要完成並不是退縮 現在是第六次他們有提行政案工程會來做和解所謂的仲裁那跟他去不去 跟他有什麼關係因為有一些有涉及到所謂驗收的問題來 我們來看我們來看驗收的問題啊花了納稅的29億啊2022年"},{"start":3707.884,"end":3731.355,"text":"就應該要完工了我的法務部現在是搞大內宣橫匯啊那個媒體怎麼會出這種報導我看了我都覺得很驚訝你要搞大內宣沒有關係啊你要作秀擺拍也沒有關係啊事情要做到嘛事情沒做到還搞大內宣作秀擺拍好萊塢大片納稅人看了會淌血啊29億耶"},{"start":3737.247,"end":3751.61,"text":"不是29萬欸29億欸29億給你們預算搞成這個樣子喔來 搞成什麼樣子我們接下來來看啊2025年6月2號審計部查核意見法務部有沒有收到有收到了不僅法務部收到啊我掌握的東西連行政院秘書長都收到了查核意見講什麼"},{"start":3766.783,"end":3771.747,"text":"該間分別於112年1到3月辦理初驗112年是2023年早就過了應該竣工的期間驗收不合格項目多達2279項2279項不是2項不是22項是2279項最關鍵的是什麼到今年3月底"},{"start":3795.509,"end":3820.201,"text":"部分驗收日已耗損一年八個月餘還有部分缺失21項初驗缺失9項還有30個缺失沒有完成改善重點是下面根本沒有辦法發揮智慧監獄的功能這是我們審計部說的法務部接到審計部這樣子的一個審計報告做了什麼檢討"},{"start":3824.764,"end":3832.335,"text":"做了什麼究責來請法務部次長還是收到這個文了以後看一看丟到旁邊反正審計部來歸審計部來言者尊尊聽者渺渺"},{"start":3836.916,"end":3865.511,"text":"好委員 陳儒一幕上所顯示的這個驗收的過程就是我們去找出他的不合格項目然後逐項要求廠商依照合約旅行來改善所以從112年的2000多項到114年的3月底那個是第一階段的工程已經只剩下30項那當然有缺失尚會改善依照合約精神我們都會督促矯正署來督促依照合約精神"},{"start":3866.191,"end":3891.656,"text":"他得外意見來要求廠商你依照合約精神可以做什麼就是要求他要把這些缺失改善完才可以完成這個驗手造成的延遲造成國家的損失誰要負責這個部分因為廠商也有提這個工程會的調解所以我們也在跟他這兩碼子是嘛那是廠商的救濟嘛現在我的問題是站在法務部的立場該做什麼可以做什麼"},{"start":3892.236,"end":3918.451,"text":"對我們因為跟他是這個合約關係所以我們也是依照合約進程要求依照合約可以做什麼不要講空的啦現在階段就是還在調解調解如果不成的話未來可能會延誼或是否進行訴訟延誼進行訴訟對阿你要跟他要求什麼你的訴訟標的訴之聲明是什麼就是如果契約不履行的話依照合約可能有違約金可能有違約金市長這個案子你有掌握嗎"},{"start":3919.41,"end":3943.436,"text":"我有初步掌握我看你很不熟我為什麼說你很不熟我接下來帶你看你為什麼剛講的全部都是空的在同一份審計報告裡面全部都點出來了來我們往下看三道門人臉辨識系統的缺失改善完了沒有這上次喔我去巴德外醫間我自己去拍了照"},{"start":3944.755,"end":3955.968,"text":"那個時候你們跟我說要花一點時間改善三道門很重要嘛你防止脫逃三道門不能同時開嘛三道門的缺失現在改善完成沒有"},{"start":3957.359,"end":3978.271,"text":"報告委員他們有送我們這邊但是我們要以比較高標準的比較高標準不用高標準比例比較多正常可以正常可以發揮功能可以嗎所以我們現在還沒有給他驗收通過因為我們要換言之啦這個缺失還沒有改善完嘛對不對整條問題回答就好了嘛"},{"start":3978.951,"end":4004.188,"text":"他有送上來讓我們覺得說要用高頻率穩定的狀況下沒問題我們才會認說通過所以缺失還沒有改善完成對不對是不是現在還沒有回訂通過沒有改善完成就沒有改善完成嘛這我去年的質詢內容啊我已經一而再再而三提醒法務部啊我開始追的事情我一定會一路追下去啊29億啊"},{"start":4006.741,"end":4012.129,"text":"我再提醒一次啊 29億啊千世紀缺失改善完了嗎這也是我去年問的"},{"start":4022.477,"end":4040.034,"text":"監視器的部分是算弱電部分的部分我們有要求 但是廠商他有進度 但是進度不如理想沒關係嘛 就繼續拖嘛為什麼廠商敢擺爛為什麼超過合約的期限這麼久"},{"start":4044.534,"end":4070.899,"text":"我繼續給你拖嘛反正呢我們的法務部我們的矯正署遇到這樣的問題有缺失啊來改善有缺失啊來改善我繼續拖繼續混今天如果遲延一個月我用這麼嚴厲的態度啊來質問法務部可能是我不夠厚道我再提醒一次啊2022年就要竣工現在是2025年"},{"start":4072.369,"end":4083.874,"text":"你們每一次跟立法院講的提到立法院的報告是一而再再而三跳票為什麼這個廠商敢這麼皮啊來因為損害賠償以契約價金總額20%為上限超過20啦現在早就超過20啦超過20你能拿我怎麼樣你拿我根本沒皮條啊"},{"start":4104.008,"end":4130.113,"text":"我繼續辭言下去還是百分之二十啊連審計部都看不下去了啊審計部怎麼講 我唸給你聽啊該監 就講得八德外一監明明知道契約所定 辭言履約罰則應記 記罰上限以上是實質約束管制的效果卻沒有等於主管機關的職責積極採取適當作為"},{"start":4135.302,"end":4160.724,"text":"這是審計部的意見這個意見看過沒有委員這個你沒有換紅線的部分他有說因為我們考量到是巴德外意見的考量是辦理解約並重新發包有關工程結算及雜標作業時間可能須一年以上作業時間這是Part 2的問題嗎對不是這個是巴德外意見為什麼沒有解約來做但是我們先從一個部分一個部分來嘛審計部說"},{"start":4162.881,"end":4164.064,"text":"你們沒有採取積極"},{"start":4166.792,"end":4193.741,"text":"適當的作為審計部講的有沒有道理他的所謂的積極作為就是要我們解約嘛因為這一個所謂20%上限指的是食鹽的部分嘛如果他最後是工程項目沒有達到沒有完成驗收在那個部分就不是受這個20%上限所以對於審計部對你們的指責法務部不是很滿意就對了我們是認為說有不同的考量好沒關係我們再看再往下看法務部跟審計部啊有哪些不一樣的考量"},{"start":4195.051,"end":4207.471,"text":"巴德外意見推動企業進駐要不要依照政府採購法辦理要還是不要法務部的意見是什麼需要依照政府採購法"},{"start":4209.12,"end":4234.024,"text":"這個委員我想你調查過這個資料是所以呢這個巴德外一間是依照這個公有財運所的相關規定是來交由市政府所以要不要適用政府採購法這個法令的體系是不一樣的所以要不要適用政府採購法他走那一邊是不適用政府採購法不適用政府採購法所以政府採購法第99條的規定就在規定BOT嘛"},{"start":4239.858,"end":4258.143,"text":"除其他法律令有規定者適用本法之規定啊這不只BOT對 你講得非常的好我們再往下看 審計部怎麼講該適用政府採購法 沒有適用政府採購法辦理過程違法審計部講的話很重喔"},{"start":4259.195,"end":4271.267,"text":"他說工程會函釋本案應該是用政府採購法第99條規定辦理過程險欠合法險欠合法就是不合法啦"},{"start":4272.688,"end":4296.315,"text":"工程會都函釋給你們了結果該監對於前刊的函釋未施檢討改善卻自行認定符合政府採購法精神一直沒有為釋法的處理嚴重傷害政府採購的公開透明及公平性審計部的這個意見法務部接不接受"},{"start":4297.657,"end":4313.346,"text":"我想未來我們會盡可能的避免這個方式來做這個案子啊他給你的檢討意見啊說你顯然違法啊告訴你違法還不檢討改進繼續硬凹審計部寫的比較文言文實質的內容就是這樣嘛"},{"start":4314.602,"end":4340.978,"text":"因為我想我也看到這個裡面巴德外一間的主張是說他用所有公用不動產品所以我們應該聽巴德外一間的主張還是聽審計部加上工程會的主張巴德外一間現在是很大是不是審計部講什麼不重要工程會的含釋也不重要巴德外一間愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞是這樣嗎是嗎還是因為巴德外一間合作的對象是誰巴德外一間合作的對象是"},{"start":4345.287,"end":4370.568,"text":"桃園市政府鄭文燦主政的桃園市政府所以法務部不敢處理啊怎麼處理下去當初違法亂搞的就巴德外一間跟鄭文燦亂搞嘛我跟你講這個跟這個沒有關係啦對啊那如果沒有關係的話 主要是適用法規的人的問題 審計部的糾正報告工程會的函式以及名字我們的法務部啊違法還不施檢討改進啊現在法務部願意檢討改進了嗎"},{"start":4374.994,"end":4399.641,"text":"我想我剛剛已經說明得很清楚了我們會來檢討會來檢討要不要追究責任按看檢討的結果檢討需要多久需要多久請署長顧一下檢討不是講空話啦檢討需要多久一個月夠不夠我跟委員報告一下剛剛委員您有提到的巴德外間有沒有盡責這個部分"},{"start":4401.348,"end":4418.104,"text":"不好意思喔 我跟你講剛剛我唸的每一個字都是審計部的報告審計部的報告說辦理過程顯現合法就是不合法嘛接下來又再講誰未失據與檢討改善這也是審計部講的啊這不是我黃國昌講的啊"},{"start":4422.394,"end":4434.562,"text":"審計部白紙黑字寫成這個樣子剛次長也說要檢討我現在的問題很具體檢討要多久 怎麼追究責任需要多久 一個月夠不夠我等你一個月啊 夠不夠"},{"start":4436.636,"end":4444.82,"text":"還是沒有人要檢討所以不敢給時間所以你繼續再堅持嘛人家審計部說你違法嘛你繳證書說 講審計部的嘛現在這個就是問題了嘛現在是什麼 繳證書很大審計部說你違法"},{"start":4461.593,"end":4486.703,"text":"你還不承認 還不處理 剛市長說要檢討嘛那檢討需要多久 我只剩最後這個問題對啦 我們本來就會 需要多久一部的查核意見會做出相應的檢討嘛需要多久這個部分 因為八德外醫監討 還有整個矯正所需要作業期程嘛是 需要多久我們原則上希望 一兩個月內來提出好不好一個月好不好兩個月可以嗎兩個月太久啦 就一個月好不好"},{"start":4487.924,"end":4489.125,"text":"接下來我們請林倩祺委員發言"},{"start":4513.308,"end":4529.807,"text":"好 莊委我們府院同仁大家好我是不是先請我們法務部次長或署長就我待會的問題看是誰來回應比較好那請黃次長跟周署長好的"},{"start":4530.58,"end":4545.017,"text":"那今天衛福部也有我們署長這邊來代表所以有一些問題我會跟您請教所以我們今天是先針對這個癒症跟受刑人的處遇然後做一個制度性的檢討那本席這邊有鎖定兩個方向"},{"start":4547.279,"end":4570.671,"text":"所以我先把相關的資訊先羅列一下本期這邊有司法官學院犯罪防治研究所的統計數字那麼毒品試用者在五年內的再犯率是單純監禁大概高達72%然後採取緩起訴、覆命、戒治、治療的就降到了35.6%"},{"start":4572.512,"end":4589.688,"text":"所以從這邊呢可以看得出處遇模式如果不同對再犯的風險是正相關的顯著影響那另外是高齡的這個問題剛才你們在報告裡面有提到對高齡受刑者這邊也有一些規劃那我這邊提醒一下"},{"start":4590.909,"end":4594.672,"text":"在數據上高齡的受刑者在2014是4.4%但是到了10年之後2023的數據突然變成了一倍高9.6%目前在65歲以上的受刑人已經將近2700人整個10年來成長了近3倍反映受刑人高齡的問題也很嚴重"},{"start":4614.645,"end":4626.332,"text":"那剛才你們在報告裡面雖然也有提但是本席希望待會就更具體的能夠讓本席這邊了解在這個毒品跟高齡受刑者的相關問題那我想這個數字對於整個預證系統應該是還蠻有壓力的"},{"start":4632.435,"end":4654.621,"text":"不管是先前我們討論的空間、超收等等可是我們從這個數據裡面其實看得出整個毒品儲育還是非常過度的依賴矯正機關矯正機關不知道我這樣講你們怎麼看法因為這個矯正機關如果對它太過度依賴的話我們會以乏代療的陰影一直籠罩著"},{"start":4655.521,"end":4680.708,"text":"所以高齡受刑人重返社會的措施也有很多改善的空間所以今天我們針對如何有效的抑制還有延緩在犯跟促成社會的復歸是今天的重點所以我們就從毒品跟高齡犯的面向來探討然後來看看現在的缺口在哪裡然後我們能夠落實治療優先跟人性化處遇的一個方向"},{"start":4681.82,"end":4702.633,"text":"好,那所以在這個部分我想要請教法務部跟這個衛福部那如果我們以病犯的這個視角來看待毒品的使用者那現行的除疫制度是不是有機會讓這個治療來做優先的一個考量那我們回顧整個毒品危害防治的制度設計原本這個觀察樂界跟強制樂界"},{"start":4705.795,"end":4731.267,"text":"是一個醫療處遇的過渡手段最後的目標其實是要讓這個毒品適用者來接受醫療的這個協助但是呢現況是這個觀察樂界跟強制戒制都以矯正署的相關機構作為主體的一個執行那整個環境還是很像這個監禁的場域那你們覺得這樣子能夠有效的來戒制那個毒品的犯罪嗎"},{"start":4732.387,"end":4759.21,"text":"那另外這個部分就來請教署長剛才雖然你們在報告有提到這個矯正署跟衛福部有一些合作那你們是不是有訂定一些中長期的分流機制跟改革的這個規劃那可不可以將機構式的儲遇轉型為還起訴的中繼處手段或安置場所那這樣是不是能夠更有效的來做一些成效的評估從過去我們是否在犯"},{"start":4760.07,"end":4777.968,"text":"來把它轉成調整為是否延緩再犯或者是否完成療程用病理跟復原的觀點來做一個指標那衛福部我這邊請教的是在你們的毒防中心成癮醫療門診的量能是不是能夠足夠來承擔"},{"start":4779.749,"end":4802.441,"text":"機構外儲預我知道你們剛才講到這個今年的預算也增加了不少那但是增加的這個面向是在哪裡所以地方的這個毒防中心是不是普遍具有針對不同毒品的施用型態來共狀共併狀態的這個風險進行評估跟儲預分流的這個能力那是不是請這個矯正署跟衛福部"},{"start":4804.183,"end":4815.799,"text":"我先總體跟您說明大的方向然後再請兩位署長來跟您報告您的具體的問題那麼我想這個行政院這個跨部會的新時代反毒策略綱領已經核定了3.0"},{"start":4818.462,"end":4834.86,"text":"那在這個過程中呢剛委員提出來的問題我們其實都有看到所以我們本來就有一個強化多元儲育特別是委員特別點出來的這個緩洗素負面接引治療的成效所以我們現在新生毒品犯的這一個人口已經逐年在遞減了"},{"start":4835.541,"end":4852.878,"text":"但是我們會日益來精進這個方面的策略但是因為還起訴畢竟有他的法定要件所以不太可能所有的個案都可以適用同一種方式所以我們才會強調說多元處理當然委員的意思是說這個機構處理可能效果比較不好"},{"start":4853.619,"end":4874.196,"text":"現在用非機構的處理但是我們要考慮到每個個案具體的狀況所以我們每一個多元的這個狀況都會並行那我們都會個別來檢討來精進那是不是也聽一下衛福部跟你們合作的一個狀態然後其實最重要的就是說我們怎麼從病理的一個角度來看到這些受刑人的一個問題跟做實際的一些治療"},{"start":4874.796,"end":4897.741,"text":"對我們都有這個在每一個多元的處理裡面都必須要來跟衛福部跟他們所屬的醫療的專業好來做合作那是不是細節部分我來請兩位署長來跟委員做進一步說明報告委員所謂的毒品犯是病犯他是犯人的同時也是病人所以在我們早期我們有跟"},{"start":4898.861,"end":4918.172,"text":"像介治所就跟療養院來合作然後來發展本土化的介治模式然後再建議這一端我們有所謂的科學實證的毒品患處意計畫那至於我們跟衛福部其實在行政院那種跨部會"},{"start":4918.752,"end":4941.552,"text":"合作裡面我們也都有包括以前的政務委員做一些指示我們會把相關的可能機構廚藝慢慢會轉向到社區廚藝包括委員有提到緩起訴確實他的效果會比較好這邊剛才也是在這個內容裡面好跟你們建議是不是"},{"start":4942.193,"end":4950.09,"text":"大家對於矯正署的依賴可以再小一點然後看是不是衛福部這邊可以回答本席剛才所提的一個內容的重點"},{"start":4958.088,"end":4978.736,"text":"陳盧委員提到我們都很認同藥營者應該要有一些醫療的介入所以長期以來我們大概有兩個方向一方面是我們跟矯正機關合作把醫療介營的服務導入到這個監所裡頭所以基本上還是導入到監所裡頭就需要那第二個是痊癒之後"},{"start":4980.437,"end":5000.456,"text":"出獄之後過去也有一些地方的檢察官也會用賦命的方式或者是處獄的方式在社區裡面接受戒癮的服務本席這邊可不可以跟您請教目前你們在針對各個不同的毒品的施用的形態有沒有比較細節的區分來做對受刑人的處理"},{"start":5003.639,"end":5024.139,"text":"我們現在大概分成兩類啦 一種就是所謂的減害計畫就是用這個美沙通或者是哪路送對於這個鴉片類的這個成癮者的我們叫做減害減害的這個藥營治療 這是一類那另外的話就是用行為治療 那個都是在這個醫療機構來提供服務"},{"start":5025.64,"end":5048.577,"text":"所以看起來是大的方向但是沒有針對每一種毒品的施用型態有一些調整或者是補強喔 有沒有當然也會根據它的這個藥引的主要的那個成分會有不同剛剛講的這個減害計畫主要是針對鴉片類的那還有其他的有些它並沒有特殊的像我們這種這個"},{"start":5051.519,"end":5078.737,"text":"我們叫替代療法 減害替代療法而是要直接介治的也有不同的所以本席這邊跟你們提醒就是各種藥引有不同的一個狀態所以如果你們說經費變多的話那應該在這個部分處理得再更精緻一點這個是本席針對我們不要以法代療能夠把它真正當一個病理的脈絡來看那可能可以在效果上更為精進"},{"start":5080.278,"end":5092.482,"text":"接下來本席這邊提到要關心一下高齡收容人的特殊需求跟制度的缺口我們知道大概今年我們已經邁向了高齡社會依據國際的經驗每日都已經針對高齡受刑人"},{"start":5098.904,"end":5121.204,"text":"設置專責的監獄或者是在監獄內劃設高齡專區因為我們知道高齡人口會碰到適應困難如果關寡的受刑者他沒有子女來撫養然後中高齡退出職場後又很難進入就業市場所以本席這邊想要了解目前我們在監獄"},{"start":5122.885,"end":5148.887,"text":"有沒有對高齡有專責的監獄那其次呢是那至少監獄裡面高齡區的設置狀況現況是如何那有沒有納入監所的整建跟新設寓所的這個標準規劃因為這個是我們不可能逃避的一個問題也是寓所的一個新的挑戰那這個部分不知道法務部這邊來目前做的怎麼樣呢"},{"start":5149.848,"end":5176.19,"text":"報告委員我們針對高齡受刑人並沒有設立高齡監獄但是我們在每個監獄裡面有所謂的長春工廠就是收容這些高齡的受刑人再給他這個工廠比如這個工廠可能對他就萬一要設在一樓或是這個動線比較好的地方兼顧到他的安全"},{"start":5176.51,"end":5200.329,"text":"主場這邊提到的是這個工廠上回我們召委帶我們去參觀的這個就是參訪的這個寓所那我們也看到這個所謂的工廠的這個部分但是您現在講的是對高齡人這個工廠比較開放性的一個空間但是對於高齡人在寓所裡面的這個整個生活的空間是不是這個部分也應該納入一個專區的一個思維來處理"},{"start":5204.432,"end":5220.928,"text":"因為基本上每日都已經有這樣子的一個做法那高齡者在生活上也可能在跟其他受刑人的生活節奏會有一些比較大的落差所以這點是很需要去做處理跟面對的"},{"start":5221.488,"end":5234.656,"text":"是 所以跟委員報告我們有所謂的樂齡計劃在115年我們爭取2400萬那116年我們爭取到1400萬因為115年它可能相關的府紀已經採購了所以在116年就少掉了1000萬我們也包括包含壽行人的指引我講比較直接一點啦"},{"start":5250.086,"end":5273.703,"text":"是不是可以好好的考量在寓所裡面設定高齡的專區不管是這個在所謂的工廠比較開放性的空間跟生活面的這個空間或者是未來我們可以再仿效這些已開發就是已開發國家他們的做法然後在寓所裡面大家針對空間針對高齡者的行為行動去做一個分隔的這個處理"},{"start":5275.344,"end":5302.347,"text":"這是本席今天提出來很具體的一個建議我們應該可以朝這個部分來做處理我們可以參考日本啦日本它有高齡專區包括說它的工廠所以至少先從高齡專區開始嘛我們知道高齡大家都沒有那個高齡的經驗但是我們知道高齡所顯現出來的這個生活節奏跟行為面確實是而且現在數量又變得比較多所以確實是要提早來做一些處理"},{"start":5303.508,"end":5324.646,"text":"這是本席很直接的一個建議那未來我也會針對這個部分來瞭解寓所在每一年的這個圍形的調整跟中長期的一個計畫好不好報告委員是在日本的尾道建議他有收了60歲以上的有慢性病的受刑人那重點就是有希望在台灣你們這個部分可以列入比較具體的考量好不好"},{"start":5326.488,"end":5337.642,"text":"他可能有一些胡踢工廠有一些相關的適合你講的是一些高齡的設施你講的是高齡的設施但是我講的是整個高齡受刑人的這個部分我們會再來研議好 謝謝所以注意一下高齡者的這個生活面"},{"start":5342.728,"end":5358.978,"text":"那最後本席這邊了解一下就是說在這個矯正署跟對不起法務部相關的這個單位跟衛福部的一個合作的相關的這個人力資源和這個薪資所以現在我們"},{"start":5359.898,"end":5374.469,"text":"在毒品處遇跟高齡的照護都需要醫療這很重要的那剛才你們在報告裡面也提到目前有這個心理師、社工師的一個專業介入但是目前應該就本席這邊所看到的數據在專業服務上"},{"start":5376.59,"end":5382.174,"text":"有一些不足那最主要就是說受刑人處於專業的這個失資的終點目前還沿用十年前十幾年前2012的標準那這個標準是低於市場行情的而導致呢矯正機關沒有辦法"},{"start":5392.52,"end":5418.409,"text":"吸引真正具有實務經驗的心理師社工師或醫師的長期投入那麼署長矯正署是不是有盤點然後跟檢討整個的費用標準那對衛福部這個部分本席有針對毒品精神病共病者跟高齡收容人的跨部會整合處於模式那如何將這種預防性的福利"},{"start":5419.81,"end":5432.264,"text":"導入矯正場域讓高風險的族群在出域以後也能夠進入社區還有接受身心照護的這個體系那這兩個問題是不是可以請你們很簡短的回答"},{"start":5434.594,"end":5455.573,"text":"有就告訴本席現在在做的那如果沒有你們在中長期的計畫有什麼樣子的一個想法跟委員報告這個確實矯正機關訂的是比較低啦如果是我們衛福部的計畫進去的那麼醫師的部分三個小時算一節的話是六千啦其他的醫師人員進去終點會是兩千確實是"},{"start":5458.536,"end":5483.245,"text":"是有點低嘛 對不對所以我們就光看數據2012到現在那整個物價調整多少那如果我們要真正能夠找到能解決問題的相關人等是不是在薪資的部分法務部這邊應該來做一個整體的考量跟檢討嗎好 各位報告因為這有點細節我們回去盤點一下是不是哪些人會去使用這個表因為剛剛石署長也有講到說這個如果是他們的計畫不是照這個表領"},{"start":5484.165,"end":5490.208,"text":"因為他們相關在這個部分比較專業所以我這邊提醒我們這邊來盤點一下我們目前的這個表適用狀況然後我們會來檢討你們如果盤點完之後是不是給本席一個表列或報告讓本席這邊也知道你們兩兆可不可以多加在這個部分多一些對口"},{"start":5507.657,"end":5530.887,"text":"然後更具體的為中長期的計畫來實施比較真的跟社會目前的脈絡現狀符合的一些方法我們其實都緊密在聯繫謝謝委員的關心謝謝好的謝謝那我最後只提醒一件事你們也不用回應了那本席要為立法院的其他同仁目前遇到的這個問題去敦促法務部你們應該依法秉公處理"},{"start":5533.328,"end":5553.177,"text":"那是不是檢察官可以在不是只有收到告訴或告發的時候才開始偵查只要有其他方式讓檢察官知道有犯罪發生的可能檢察官都應該要展開調查那最近呢大家在這個所謂罷免的這個部分有許多看到許多連署份數的這個無效的這個連署份數"},{"start":5556.738,"end":5572.568,"text":"那如果被很多人質疑的話那是不是法務部這邊應該秉公處理不管是哪一個政黨都應該要查而不是只有接受到中選會的這個通知才辦好不好 這是本席的一個提醒 好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝林倩琪 林委員我們接下來請程培宇委員質詢"},{"start":5590.322,"end":5593.292,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請周署長請周署長"},{"start":5600.424,"end":5623.503,"text":"好署長早安署長我還是想繼續跟你談我們之前有研究過的一些題目那雖然吳宗憲找我一直提醒我你要退休但我相信署長你一定會把我們所有委員關心的題目跟後續的署長交接對嗎是謝謝署長我要先談一下在107年的時候當時的法務部長邱太三他做了一個承諾那確實你們後續也都做到了"},{"start":5623.823,"end":5641.673,"text":"他说希望可以在109年的时候达到一人一床监锁零超收这个愿景非常的好我们来往下看我们看你们逐年收容的这个人数啊来看一下从110到11112123确实"},{"start":5642.233,"end":5664.02,"text":"到113確實都沒有超收可是我比較好奇到了114年5月底這個是你們法務部自己的資料統計這個我們還沒有鎖死網站上就看得到到了5月底的時候已經有超額收容的問題我比較好奇這個超額收容是怎麼樣造成的我猜想會不會是因為近年來詐騙案"},{"start":5666.101,"end":5680.057,"text":"很猖獗那各部會積極辦案的結果積極調查的情況下讓收容人數上升因為我們之前看少年犯有很多確實是因為詐欺詐騙我不知道在成人或是其他整個統計上是不是因為這樣"},{"start":5681.528,"end":5695.749,"text":"是報告委員確實是這個詐欺患他上升到第一名來所以有一些人數上我們的突破六萬人我們的核定綜合是60552"},{"start":5698.252,"end":5714.805,"text":"那目前目前應該也是6萬出頭一點點對啦其實只有超收42個人比例也不高可是我認為如果如果真的是我剛推估的你也說確實是因為詐騙案的關係我們的收容人越來越多"},{"start":5715.185,"end":5731.01,"text":"那我認為雖然各部會已經很努力打詐可是壞人比我們更用功比我們更努力他們會努力想出各式各樣的方法詐騙常常我聽到很多案例我都覺得瞠目結舌非常可怕那我們如何看待這個情況跟後續你們有沒有什麼因應的方案"},{"start":5732.489,"end":5750.247,"text":"對於那個詐騙集團他普遍有不勞而獲的心態所以原則上我們會加強他的技能訓練還有相關的法治先導那可是 對不對署長我知道這是裡面教化的部分但是超收這個部分他很有可能節節必高喔 數字"},{"start":5751.997,"end":5769.356,"text":"對於超收的部分我們會看它的超收比例尤其是超收超過兩成以上的我們就會積極辦理移間原則上從北部移到中南部去所以你認為如果全台灣通盤考慮我們目前還有些餘裕空間上"},{"start":5770.362,"end":5787.676,"text":"我們是可以盤點哪個地方它的空間比較多的我們就把它移遷到那個地方去但是因為這個表格法務部的這個表格是針對所有的收容機構矯正機構的收容人數我想要拜託我們有沒有機會請你們幫我們提供一個統計數字是個別監所因為剛剛署長您自己提到可以北中南做調整"},{"start":5798.544,"end":5821.201,"text":"所以我也就很好奇北中南東現在所有矯正機關各自的收容人數單獨個別的統計數字不用現在給我有機會可以幫我們統計嗎我們已經有這個比如說哪個機關超收我們會有延遷表示比如說超過兩成的有幾所我們都有依照這個來參考然後辦理一間的作業"},{"start":5821.581,"end":5843.502,"text":"那這個數字再拜託你們給我們提供辦公室會後再提供給我們好謝謝那如果超收我們其實就會比較擔心之前也跟署長討論過下一張關於人力的部分其實也是希望幫所有願意進到矯正機構工作的專業員工跟您討論喔就是在人數比的部分我上次還沒有跟您討論完我想跟您請教"},{"start":5844.202,"end":5869.864,"text":"所謂教化人力上次你們給我們的數字是1比138那介護人力是1比11新社跟醫事都各自其實看起來那個比例上會讓人感到有點擔心會不會所有這些矯正機關的工作人員專業人力工作負擔過重我不是很確定所以我想要請問一下所謂教化人力在你們的定義當中它的工作內容工作樣態大概有哪些"},{"start":5871.179,"end":5887.672,"text":"報告委員 教化人力 主要是教委師或一些輔導員 他們主要是辦理假釋的業務或劣勁處理分數的業務那當然從這個表看起來 我們的教化人力確實負擔蠻重的 所以我們"},{"start":5889.034,"end":5913.175,"text":"針對我們的雄雄累進主義在民國35年訂定有點老舊不合時宜的我們會把它作為簡化考核制度因為現行的民國幾年則分數不同打的分數每個月進幾哩都不一樣非常的繁瑣我們會把它作為簡化考核制度之後讓每個教委是在"},{"start":5913.775,"end":5931.922,"text":"假釋辦理或是累進廚藝的辦理方面會比較有效率而且減輕他的負擔所以這個我們正在努力正在努力意思就是說你們已經在研議簡化考核的事情那現在的進度你們可不可以給我們知道"},{"start":5932.602,"end":5944.771,"text":"本則上有再報法務部第三次報法務部因為我們會會相關的私處他們都有一些意見再回來我們再針對這個意見再來做微調好 那簡化這個流程之後是不是會讓這個人數比看起來人數比會降低嗎 應該不會我們只是調整他們的工作內容"},{"start":5954.597,"end":5981.668,"text":"但工作比還會是人數比還會是這樣那我比較好奇第一線的教化人員有讓你們知道說其實假設未來就算簡化其實工作量還是會有點太超過還是其實我不是很確定簡化之後包括累進主義假釋就單純化了所以對他可能原來要加班的加班的時數會就降低了是有實際的幫助"},{"start":5982.588,"end":6007.542,"text":"所以我們簡化的目標就是希望讓他們的工作loading不要太重然後不要每個人都過度的加班那這個簡化的過程當中也要拜託要積極聆聽第一線工作同仁的聲音尤其是您剛剛說這些在現場第一線的教化人力他們的需求跟他們的困境他們的狀況我認為既然已經有在研議中拜託你們要聽他們的聲音是 這個我們都有聽起我們就並沒有收集他們的意見所屬機關的意見在做處理的"},{"start":6011.164,"end":6033.751,"text":"好 那上個禮拜還跟您討論到關於新社跟醫事人力喔這個部分當然是指針對受刑人的部分但是因為這個數字是整體所有的矯正機構我其實還蠻好奇那各個的矯正機構包含少角校 少官所或者是其他的矯正機構 個別的人力統計數字這個你們有現行的統計數字嗎可以會後提供給我們辦公室嗎這個已經有了好 個別的 我說的是個別"},{"start":6040.313,"end":6066.462,"text":"新社人力的跟醫事人力我們有分開來好 那在會後再提供給我們會後可以提供好 沒問題那我們來看一下剛剛指的是受刑人的部分我們現在來看一下監所員工的協助方案因為我們都希望所有的積極的行政作為都是希望減輕現場工作人員的負擔那相關的新聞我就不再贅述我相信署長你一定知道我上一次也問過你心理協助方案但時間有限"},{"start":6067.242,"end":6074.407,"text":"我現在想要積極跟您討論到底我們現在積極協助監索員工的協助方案內容大概有哪些"},{"start":6075.495,"end":6101.866,"text":"所謂的員工協助方案我們員工協助方案是只要各機關的人事室在負責包括他有情緒或有被霸凌的都可以提出來那至於這個案件我們也有我們不要講個案我希望知道的是所有這些歸屬於矯正署底下的所有在監索員工裡面他們的協助方案大概的樣態有哪些"},{"start":6102.086,"end":6119.254,"text":"大概樣態比如說他有情緒障礙那我們人事室他願意把他的苦惱煩惱講出來那我們會看情況有必要諮商的我們會請心理師或是社工人來協助我們有心社人"},{"start":6119.414,"end":6129.177,"text":"有一套現行的機器那細節可以再提供給我們但我很好奇你們有沒有近年來的統計數字或者是他們提出來的協助方案內容因為我認為不會只有情緒的問題可能還有在職場現場裡面跟長官溝通的問題跟同仁溝通的問題工作量過多的問題超時加班的問題其實員工協助方案可以是全方面的"},{"start":6142.082,"end":6171.364,"text":"那當然我知道必須要把這個機制引入監索員工協助方案確實還需要一些時間他也需要跟外面的專業機構對話甚至可能還需要衛福部的協助那具體的內容可不可以會後再提供給我們我指的是針對員工的協助員工協助方案的數據我這邊的數據是沒有看到啦那我們會後再看看有沒有這些數據我們可以再跟你們討論到底我們想要促進哪些事情"},{"start":6171.964,"end":6194.82,"text":"協助監所員工好不好是好謝謝署長最後一個我們去考察了城鎮我們看到那個孩子們的住宿的設防狀況真的不是太好可是我們也看到城鎮他們有在調整室內空間有相關預算跟計劃在進行不過我們其實還是普遍擔心不管是城鎮還是後續其他我們還沒有去看的兩所矯正學校"},{"start":6195.64,"end":6224.516,"text":"其實孩子們的住宿品質包含所有監所的住宿品質我認為這件事情有機會應該要積極的提升但是關於各個監所住宿品質狀況我們今天就沒有辦法細說但是後續我們辦公室希望可以跟矯正署做更多的討論好不好尤其是我們剛剛都發現了嘛因為詐騙案的事情不管是成人監所或者是矯正學校啊 少管所他們的收容人數都越來越高我覺得這個困境我們一起來面對"},{"start":6225.236,"end":6250.529,"text":"好的謝謝委員好最後來下一張這個課程其實我上次跟您討論過了就是我們其實還是覺得這個課程有沒有真的可以發揮協助學生復歸社會的可能性那當然上次你已經講了有一些因為學生來來去去你們必須要routine的進行這些事情但我們真的還是認為有討論的空間我就直白的說例如說弟子規這個在一般的學校"},{"start":6253.24,"end":6274.002,"text":"很多家長跟很多老師就已經認為單獨的讓學生背誦弟子規甚至讓他們擔非常枯燥的抄寫沒有真的可以對人的品性產生矯正的可能性那可能這些孩子在學校裡面搞不好也受過這種折磨啊我們現在讓他們在教校裡面還要做這個事情嗎我是先有一個問號"},{"start":6275.023,"end":6301.682,"text":"那當然除非你們設計的課程內容或者是你們的方法特別有經過特別教學設計課程設計活動方案真的可以促進他們去靠近這個東西否則我們整體課程看起來還是會有點擔心啦那我的意思是提醒說光是在課程的部分我們就可以做更多好的設計當然我知道需要專業人力的協助需要國教組的協助我們一起往這裡努力我先把問題提出來再次的提出來好不好"},{"start":6302.102,"end":6325.768,"text":"好的 謝謝委員好 謝謝署長所以我大概今天幾個重點一個是人力的部分再來是員工協助的部分再來是腳效的住宿空間那這些相關資料不管是您剛剛說要提供給我們的我們都會再整理發公文給你們或者是後續有機會在兩個月內提供給我們嗎可以 可以 兩個月內那就這樣 這麼多議題我們一起努力好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":6328.736,"end":6354.169,"text":"好 謝謝陳培委員這個是你看我們司法法制委員會尤其我在當召委一直排這麼多的考察其實是用心良苦因為司法法制委員會裡面這個過度的政治攻防那所以呢真正要去發揮監督真的要實地去看你看每一次的一個議題出來也都是督促我們行政部門可以啊 裡面有一些就是說"},{"start":6355.47,"end":6369.963,"text":"叫你們這樣 禮拜年畢竟推你們一把來做一個督促的話 這個是好事啦這個是 行政部門這個地方也希望能夠加把勁陳培宇委員走了 我要志強等一等喔陳培宇委員 再來換我你好 我們現在請最帥的羅志強委員來質詢我給你扭一扭 待會對你比較好 不好意思"},{"start":6384.291,"end":6393.737,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請次長跟署長請黃次長跟兩位署長 哪一位那個矯正署 周署長委員好次長還有署長我們今天會議主題是要談現行預證跟受刑人處遇機制的制度檢討我覺得我們的主席莊昭偉非常的"},{"start":6412.572,"end":6440.401,"text":"關心這個題目所以他也安排很多的考察對預證的部分所以在這邊我們大家深入來討論怎麼去改善我們現在的預證的問題那也不要負了我們召委的一起苦心一起加油那首先我想請教一下次長跟署長一個很簡單的問題尤其我們署長應該要知道我們現在監所到底收了多少人那設計容量是多少超收了百分之多少哪一間最誇張"},{"start":6441.985,"end":6442.613,"text":"抄手最多"},{"start":6443.758,"end":6465.875,"text":"報告委員我們核定收容額是60552那目前因為可能詐騙犯他上升了我們大概就突破了6萬人大概超收大概是0.48在之前的我們現在以最新的622我們是60945那超收最高是哪個監獄"},{"start":6472.62,"end":6493.128,"text":"超收最高的這個會變動那以往像桃園監獄是超收嚴重的所以他每個月都要五車的移監因為以往是桃園監獄是跟高雄二監那目前像桃園女子監獄台北看守所台北監獄都有超收的情況"},{"start":6494.388,"end":6519.089,"text":"我看到數字是最嚴重的就是桃園女子監獄超收率高達46%其實算是非常嚴重的超收我想請教一下我們署長就是按照法規每個人需要多少的空間我們受刑人法規上收容標準的空間是多少知道嗎空間嗎對 空間"},{"start":6522.08,"end":6550.529,"text":"這個應該是沒有特別規定什麼空間但是每一個機關它的空間有它的歷史的嚴格像桃園監獄它是三合一附設看守所或少年公務所那以往它是桃園地驗的附設看守所的時候它只收300多350左右那350左右因為刑事政策的變間它又成立監獄看守所 少管所它最高收到"},{"start":6551.149,"end":6568.981,"text":"大概2000人但是他的合定收容額是1275人所以他大概都超收5成目前是有在降下來大概是兩三成我看到的那個標準是那個收容標準是每人0.7瓶那我不知道這個標準是不是剛剛剛剛署長是說實際上是沒有標準"},{"start":6573.226,"end":6593.052,"text":"那再確認一下好不好因為我看到標準是這個還是有幕僚可以確認一下我們以前是0.7坪扣除這些廁所那個盥洗之外但是所謂的司法改革的時候有建議說要人道化希望能夠比如說"},{"start":6593.812,"end":6615.879,"text":"至少要超過幾坪一坪或是多少他有做一些建議我們會朝這個方面來努力包括有一些是新建有一些是擴建像八德彰化看守所如果能夠啟用那應該對於北部中部的超收有很大的幫助其實蘇長你剛剛講的就是我要講的重點"},{"start":6617.406,"end":6628.844,"text":"就以前的標準0.7坪其實都做不到啦那現在新的標準建議是希望能夠更有人道的空間那就還差一大步不知道次長是不是覺得這個努力的空間要怎麼辦"},{"start":6630.471,"end":6656.777,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前我們現在興建還沒有完全完成的有彰化跟八德剛剛書長有講我們目前還有台北看守所跟台北女子看守所會因為新北的園區也會啟動興建改建的工程所以我們會努力來爭取像剛剛特別提到的桃園女子監獄"},{"start":6657.817,"end":6682.709,"text":"我們也會來爭取增建的計畫也排到我們部裡面的前十來爭取像行政院來爭取中長城的計畫所以說我們因為硬體很多都是接收過去沿用的建築物來說所以它的設防比較難如果不改建 新建的話很難改善那我們會視國家財政情況跟我們的規劃一步一步往前走謝謝委員"},{"start":6683.989,"end":6702.53,"text":"實際上就是要麻煩法務部跟矯正署都再加把勁因為現在其實很多地方坦白講空間真的是不夠那收容有些根本是硬塞進去那也傳出說床位不夠就碎地板的這些種種情形那這其實已經不是矯正根本就是虐待所以我覺得這個是"},{"start":6704.051,"end":6723.562,"text":"應該我覺得相關單位還是要去檢討改正的地方那麼事實上超收也不只是睡覺級的這個這麼簡單的問題而已啦那收容人之間就會產生很多的摩擦人就是你知道我們人一般是會有一個空間的一個需要的空間感嘛那如果這空間感被破壞的話摩擦跟"},{"start":6724.383,"end":6740.503,"text":"衝突就會變多像一些自殘暴力事件也會上升那對介護員來說壓力也會變大所以如果說現在我們看到這樣的環境那更不要講還要做什麼的戒癮 心理輔導或是一些毒飲飯的一些問題就變得是更"},{"start":6742.686,"end":6763.596,"text":"實際上就更惡化了 所以其實監所的空間它連動的東西我覺得是很多的不是單單只是空間級而已 它連動甚至很多的寓所的管理來自於說今天真正矯正的一些作為的進行 所以這一點剛剛次長有提很多的一些就是監獄的一些計畫 希望能夠把步調加快一點"},{"start":6764.548,"end":6790.803,"text":"好 謝委員我們會全力向行政院來爭取好 那另外齁 這個次長我也要說齁像這個最近齁就發生過一些很多的一些包括性侵啊性騷啊的一些問題啊就在這擁擠空間裡面這已經快要不是個案幾乎是體系問題我想請問一下次長你知道去年齁2024年齁監索性侵性騷擾案件數是多少那相較於過去有提高嗎"},{"start":6793.584,"end":6797.154,"text":"這個數據我可能要請這個調查署這邊來查一下是喔 那署長這邊有掌握嗎"},{"start":6804.186,"end":6827.225,"text":"目前手上的數據沒有我這邊有幫你查啦我們就這個數據來討論一下有什麼要補充再回後補充給我2024年總共是136件它是創六年的新高也是在過去十年裡的第二高就去年是六年的新高那對比2022年的73件三年之間增加是1.86倍所以"},{"start":6830.127,"end":6843.674,"text":"嚴格來講其實這個相關的問題是在變得比較相對嚴重的趨勢那我們現在請問一下我們的監所現在有沒有一個全面有效的性侵性騷擾事件的通報SOP"},{"start":6845.715,"end":6864.766,"text":"還是有很多單追黑數跟委員報告因為我上任大概一年多去年下半年來到法務部我們的通報系統事實上都非常的健全就是性侵害防治三法新潮這些防治法等等的我們都有依照相關的規定來辦理"},{"start":6866.067,"end":6892.403,"text":"那我想也是因為這個MeToo運動之後大家的權利意識提高我們到現在有時候都還會接到針對過去發生的事情不一定是現在發生他現在來提出申訴跟檢舉那我們都會依照相關的規定當然要對檢舉人來做保密來保護他然後我們也會做客觀的調查機制然後都會成立或不成立的判定之後都有相關的懲處跟處置的規定這樣子"},{"start":6894.775,"end":6910.562,"text":"好非常謝謝次長我還是要提醒一下其實監鎖狀況跟一般社會情況其實坦白講狀況可能會更嚴峻一點是因為壓力比較大對那裡面的話壓力也大那被害人可能會不敢講因為在那個地方基本上他可能會跑不掉"},{"start":6911.141,"end":6937.764,"text":"然後也怕被報復所以有時候像在監獄裡面類似的問題其實往往會被押很多黑素進去所以這個可能是要特別注意就像說2022年高雄監獄就發生男性收容人遭到其他六名男育友集體霸凌跟性侵的案件那這個月月初也看到金週刊也報導收到台東高雄嘉義台北監獄收容人的投訴"},{"start":6939.246,"end":6956.148,"text":"包括管理員的性侵、預方卻沒有把加害人調職、長官放任管理員用暴力的方式教育受刑人、縱容管理員未依規定請假或兼職、拉幫結派、誣陷受刑人等"},{"start":6957.049,"end":6983.098,"text":"那這些問題我想請教一下署長那這種類似的問題像當然目前是媒體介入啦那我不知道我們的現在矯正署還有那個那個預鎖方面所方方面的話現在面對這個問題是怎麼樣去來改進的報告委員針對媒體所謂介入的這些事件我們署裡面都有去調查了解而且也做發布新聞稿做一些回應說明啦"},{"start":6984.258,"end":7000.613,"text":"那另外補充就是我現在手頭上有剛剛委員執行到的性侵跟性騷擾的矯正機關的通報案件大概以今年來講是136件去年113件是136件今年是1到5月統計是54件在以往大概是100件左右"},{"start":7011.503,"end":7035.249,"text":"從105年開始有這些相關統計大概100件左右反正跟您說一下就說136件是10年來次高大概最高一次是大概107年的140件那105年2016年是88件那實際上中間有高高低低但是確實在去年它的數字是相對比較高的所以這個要提醒大家注意一下"},{"start":7035.868,"end":7059.962,"text":"那另外最後還是要講就是說這些獄政的改革其實牽涉到就是包括他所矯正的成效啦那也包括他在獄所內 監獄裡面犯罪的防治的問題那相關的問題其實都要需要大家再加把勁再努力 不然類似像那個週刊報導這種情況 層出不窮其實對也不是我們今天監獄管理之福啦以上 謝謝"},{"start":7068.596,"end":7070.82,"text":"接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員上台質詢"},{"start":7082.96,"end":7097.877,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們服務部黃次長 還有矯正署周署長我們衛生福利部我們石署長 次長我也好"},{"start":7099.078,"end":7117.604,"text":"還有兩位署長好其實我剛才也提過了其實每一次去考察就是要發現一些問題來這個地方跟我們行政部門去做一個參考來做一個改善這是立法院的一個監督所必須要我有幾個問題來救教我想從今天所提出來的報告裡面"},{"start":7119.205,"end":7135.86,"text":"在司法法制委員會我們也一直在呼籲就是整個現在的一個現行的雷金處理條例裡面那各級的差別還有這個整個責任分數跟成績分數跟長期我們整個矯正署的規劃目標"},{"start":7136.721,"end":7145.611,"text":"是把整個累進廚藥的制度把它給廢除掉到監獄刑刑法裡面去我想我提出幾個問題今天特別請署長上來的原因就是說在我們一般監獄裡面"},{"start":7151.818,"end":7176.438,"text":"受刑人那其實他還是我們的國民他只是穿著球衣的一個國民那他在我們監獄裡面生活的基本的一個需求這個也都是我們國家去編列預算來去做一個支付那可是你說他的一個基本生活那基本生活到底包括哪一些"},{"start":7177.299,"end":7205.424,"text":"就可以來做討論啦我記得我上禮拜就教過 就是說那時時屬長你沒來就是說在地的很多區醫院 剛好各縣市都會有一些監獄那你必須要到跟醫療院所來做服務去看一看之後 壽星人 還是去看一看之後他進去服刑以後 他真的是跟這個 有些跟家庭"},{"start":7206.224,"end":7217.073,"text":"或者說他本來的經濟狀況就不好那又進去服刑以後跟家庭 就是得不到家庭的一個支持連看病啊 到最後都欠繳啦 欠錢啦看不起就看不起啦所以通常那個時事署長你知不知道 到醫療院所裡面給這個監獄受刑人這樣欠多少錢"},{"start":7228.962,"end":7249.79,"text":"跟委員報告 那個保險費就是健保費的部分是都有矯正機關拉拔啦當然這就是那個部分負擔還有一些醫療費用從102年到現在大概差不多五千萬左右五千萬你說你健保費你看在矯正署 我們政府部門都已經編列這個健保費了"},{"start":7250.49,"end":7259.038,"text":"那只是說部分負擔的部分就是說一般老百姓去看病他也要繳錢你監獄受刑人你來你也要繳錢檢報員政府幫你編OK 市政規範這看起來好像是說我的政府我幫你建保會我幫你叫你的受刑人你自己沒錢要安裝可是另外有一招無辜啊醫院無辜啊"},{"start":7275.18,"end":7287.165,"text":"醫院無辜啊 你看譬如說 我一直在講台東馬街 我覺得他很無辜啊你們桃園部立醫院 他也無辜啊其他的醫療院所 你說欠了五千萬你問教證署 教證署說這台我的事 那不是我的事啊 我是人換人來 給你照顧 願意給你打扮 給你上便衣 健保衛生 又給你便利選 給你拉馬跟教證署又無關 可是站在那個醫療院所的立場就是 人你帶來的啦"},{"start":7302.493,"end":7326.983,"text":"那個健保署的意思就是說 不然那個不穩負擔本來就是你要繳的啊事大家講都好像都 彼此都沒事醫院 他說我沒辦法繳 繳證書當然他必須要去協助 去幫忙醫院說不然你趕快繳 趕快給他收工 還是說他沒看來除了這些以外 你也不能說繳證書你跳出來 你要幫人 你帶來的 你要去付錢"},{"start":7328.888,"end":7347.631,"text":"你做醫療院所,你算主管機關,各地的便衣公司,你要怎樣,有更好的方法嗎?跟委員報告,這個事情我們有在健保會討論過,因為健保署這邊的預算主要都是來自於"},{"start":7349.092,"end":7368.278,"text":"人民繳交的健保費所以用這個說法公平性上確實有它的爭議性但是也不要讓提供服務的這些醫療機構承擔這些財務的風險所以我們一方面你這樣說也是無解啊我要說黃次長我的意思就是說我的意思就是說"},{"start":7369.538,"end":7380.028,"text":"這個我們都認定 受刑人在間的基本生活需求在間的基本生活需求是國家編列預算統一來做支付醫療的部分"},{"start":7391.847,"end":7399.774,"text":"社會不給支持嘛出來的人可能有的人不給支持嘛因為他們家有錢要來給支持欠錢的地方就是自己沒錢啦還是他們家不給支持這樣會產生這種狀況嘛我覺得要解決的有沒有方法 次長"},{"start":7408.084,"end":7424.185,"text":"那剛委員報告齁這個剛剛在我們今天的書面報告裡面也有提到齁就是說剛剛那個食物量獎的五千萬齁事實上有一部分其實我們已經處理了齁現在應該是這是多年累積的總額啦齁應該是剩下四千或三千多萬齁"},{"start":7426.408,"end":7429.931,"text":"我們現在是這樣就是說因為這個欠費是這個受請人看病那他跟這個醫療醫療有關係那但是我們另外有針對經濟困難的"},{"start":7442.784,"end":7457.325,"text":"就是其實受選並不一定都沒有錢我們要憑良心的話講是這樣那針對經濟困難部分我們每年就有編八百萬的假設作業基金去支援那去年也增到一千萬那未來我們會在這個部分"},{"start":7458.146,"end":7482.525,"text":"再跟這個健保署這邊來協商逐年我們會把這個過去的欠費跟未來如何處理這個部分的經費的問題我們會研理就是因為不夠才會你四年欠了下快五千萬嘛不只四年啦一百零二年到現在你那個一百一十二到一百一十四年的欠費你再加一加就四千多萬"},{"start":7484.502,"end":7491.508,"text":"但是還會有清償啦是嘛,所以我要告訴他已經沒有了好啦,這個問題我認為啊政府的責任啊就是說這個我們為什麼一直要考察或者說在立法院裡面有一些關於矯正署的一個專報我們也很為難耶"},{"start":7507.046,"end":7524.967,"text":"社會的氛圍是不利於來討論這個議題的,社會的氛圍是常常是尤其是事件剛發生的時候,這個好可惡喔,你會殺人喔,你會詐欺喔,幹嘛幹嘛,社會是討厭的。社會那個時候的氣氛就是說,吃醋,管好事,好了,起訴了。"},{"start":7527.429,"end":7552.684,"text":"審判了嘛隨著時間會過去嘛這個社會必須要穩定嘛到發監執行了他就是變成我們穿著球衣的國民了嘛除了我們現行制度你有一個叫做終身監禁那你也不可能任何罪行全部都提高到終身監禁嘛所以你在監的時候怎麼樣去處理這個就是一個有名該去思考的一個問題啊否則你不用到現在說我長期我這個到最後是把整個雷勁廚藝的一個條"},{"start":7557.387,"end":7579.729,"text":"這個制度全部把它廢除掉因為大家殊客就是這樣嘛那接下來我要問啦就是說我們去考察這麼多監獄裡面啊署長你認為說喔這一些受刑人每一個月你們認為說他的作業金跟勞動這個部分作業金他一公尺多少有夠三千嘛 您說的嘛 對不對"},{"start":7583.158,"end":7597.87,"text":"三千塊是維持他生活的基本費用的錢是所以呢我們說再到監獄裡面去你讓他學習謀生的技能那你這個剩下你這個作業10%"},{"start":7600.748,"end":7614.72,"text":"犯罪被害人做一個補償幫助他來復歸這個社會可是你現在你這個累進等級你去掛鉤跟勞作金和使用的一個比例這個應該去好好的做一個檢討啦你說三千啦"},{"start":7616.67,"end":7642.256,"text":"那最高的現在多少?我們以北京來看好了,你是不是相關多少多少?北京它平均,按照我們的數據顯示它每個月大概是749塊749塊,跟你說的,三清差很多的,你用700多少,北京平均?749塊你那是平均喔,相關的多少多少?"},{"start":7644.056,"end":7647.179,"text":"我們有兩個數據啦一個數據是他一年的勞作金收入是7400多萬那平均下來就是749萬"},{"start":7660.032,"end":7678.378,"text":"你是七千多萬 你把總人數你去把它除一除我現在想知道的 我當然很清楚你要拿到 你要進階到 譬如說你到二級你要關了越久以後 他比較有機會去做到更好的好像是那個報酬的一個工作人家去賣人家賺錢我們賣不賣 人家去賣比較有機會人家給你賺到這麼多作業金"},{"start":7683.079,"end":7690.385,"text":"但是我必須要講的就是說,那個差距過大,像比如說我到台東去啊,我去我都會問,你一個月的租金多少?多少你知不知道?給你最低的多少?可以出來做的,我問的,都沒差過一百塊。"},{"start":7700.629,"end":7704.93,"text":"所以說你一個月在那個地方我們說要由於復歸這個社會復歸這個社會那你從作業金他領了多少我們就可以看得出來就是說他裡面做了什麼工作比較好的那些啦 什麼麵包烘焙的啦有的沒的啦 有的沒的那差不多都差不多 到最後都修身養性 管得很乖啊你知道嗎那時候我們說 站在比較高的分所嘛"},{"start":7727.456,"end":7745.735,"text":"當然那個叫結果啦 但是我們整體來看我們怎麼樣把勞作軍如果去做一個制度的改善因為你畢竟整個勞作軍是國家跟社會如何去看待受刑人的重要指標之一"},{"start":7748.188,"end":7759.88,"text":"這勞動跟勞作金你要讓它復歸這個社會你如果當成是這樣子的話而不是單純是要懲罰跟一種規訓的話那你可能做法會有所不同"},{"start":7762.563,"end":7791.582,"text":"委員我們勞作機關也希望能夠提高所以包括我們有一個評價會議我們評價會議也會請社會公正人事跟勞動部的勞動力發展署他對廠商比較了解來一起開會廠商一起過來然後當然基於廠商他也希望說壓低嘛那我們希望提高所以就是折衷這樣子那問題是比如所謂的勞動"},{"start":7792.983,"end":7812.168,"text":"剛剛委員提到麵包 烘培 甚至有的是醬油工 那個就很高 那個平均大概一萬塊以上但是我們一般的勞作金沒那麼高 這確實是這樣包括他的委託作業的項目 比如說有些老人工廠他只能折那個紫蓮花 那個就少了"},{"start":7814.228,"end":7831.697,"text":"那個就少但是你如果分配到所謂的焊接工廠那個車廠的那個會比較高因為他有點技術所以可能跟委託座位的項目也是有點關係但是一般廠商能不能把高技術引進過來是一個問題"},{"start":7835.179,"end":7842.024,"text":"所以說你們要去繳什麼會去買 繳就繳到蓮花 或是消磨時間這樣而已不是說那個不對啦有時候讓受刑人在裡面 有工作可以做啦對他心情的穩定也不是壞事啦有一些比如說 我們會找一些比如說 提貸 外銷的 那個算件也是錢不錯那個算是比如說外銷的 我們盡量來找這種項目的啦"},{"start":7865.439,"end":7882.149,"text":"跟那個景氣有關係包括說在疫情期間再怎麼找也是很難啦你這樣講署長就失去你的專業了你反而像這一種你那個技術高的到最後一定是累進處於的級數已經又變更高了啦"},{"start":7884.639,"end":7894.656,"text":"是不是這樣說 一定是這樣啊你像比如說你那個技術含量比較高的 勞作經費比較高的工作你一定是夠累進儲育 我看你至少到二級以上啊不然你要怎麼站在那裡"},{"start":7900.951,"end":7928.478,"text":"累進廚藝的集數跟委託作業的項目委員是覺得有關係的我覺得有關係當然那產生的是一個結果這個應該沒有關係我會喔 我認為會喔你要好好去做一個思考好好去做一個思考畢竟這個你更專業啦你更專業啦我是認為啦 這樣子講啦就是說受刑人他是被我們社會排除之外的國民"},{"start":7931.067,"end":7959.214,"text":"是這樣子嗎 是一個問號還是你把它當成它是遲早要回歸我們這個社會的一個共同體我看大法官 憲法法庭也做出了一些解釋憲法法庭也好或者說國外的一個法制你看連德國聯邦憲法法院他也去提到了就是說立法者必須去法律明確再社會化的一個概念講這一些"},{"start":7960.576,"end":7975.052,"text":"台灣的社會氛圍未必聽得下去但是你們叫做矯正機關啦你們叫做矯正機關啦那說這個制度如何去做一個改進我覺得還是有必要我再強調一次就是說"},{"start":7977.059,"end":8003.116,"text":"從案件發生到偵查到審判這個社會都是浮動判決確定以後隨著時間這樣子過去我們期待的是這個被法院判決的除非他已經死刑了跟這個社會永久隔離了或者他就是穿著球衣的國民他總是要復歸到這個社會我們所有矯正就是依照這樣的一個概念在運作"},{"start":8004.537,"end":8028.663,"text":"再去做逐步的做一個修正嘛那所以這一些齁 如果衝到那個壽星人去看說啊我給你關 關到買啊 我就看這個賣啊我看不去啊 我要去欠銷啊給人家小證書來給他偷錢對醫院他有他的思考對壽星人來講的話這個到底符不符合人性尊嚴的一個部分 基本的一個國民"},{"start":8029.963,"end":8041.047,"text":"我倒認為政府可以多做點力啦是 報告委員我可以講 補充一句話嗎剛剛委員有提到那些作業是不是跟累進廚藝您認為有關係如果從這個精神來看"},{"start":8045.649,"end":8062.159,"text":"他確實是跟冷靜廚藝沒有關係但是他會跟殘形有關係因為我們要做一些出塞他要去餓這個手拉啤的麵包的他一定比如說要三鍋味還是六鍋味才會出塞嘛"},{"start":8062.839,"end":8075.994,"text":"所以我們會有一個申請說你產型一定要有三個月以上或六個月以上你才能夠來參加啦但是不會限說你一定要什麼級數你已經屬於達到幾級沒有 我們是用產型來篩選"},{"start":8082.903,"end":8106.017,"text":"委員那個剛才那個委員所說的因為我們總部今天報告有講我們在這個累進處理制度事實上我們條例要廢止然後我們會在今天行法修一些條文然後未來大部分的細節性的規定會用法規命令來訂定那委員今天所提示的報案簡報裡面所記載的我們都會回去納入未來我們原意改善的這個意見來參考"},{"start":8106.957,"end":8122.607,"text":"是啦 因為你那個各級別的差別待遇的或者說你那個整個現行的責任分數跟成績分數裡面自己都很清楚嘛那這些本來就必須要到一併去做一個研議如何再去做修正的時候了啦 好不好是 我們都會檢討好 謝謝"},{"start":8134.426,"end":8146.634,"text":"謝謝我先做一個會議程序的宣告我們稍後請吳斯亞委員詢答完畢以後我們休息五分鐘我們接下來請沈發慧委員進行詢答"},{"start":8157.905,"end":8162.59,"text":"主席我們請黃次長還有周署長剛才在前面莊委員的質詢最後的時候有提到真的很巧就提到我接下來要談的問題"},{"start":8179.795,"end":8192.144,"text":"那這個就是剛才有提到說我們的這個有關行刑累進處遇條例喔你有提到說我們將來是要廢止的是對那這個基本上齁"},{"start":8193.633,"end":8208.493,"text":"這個行刑累進 今天我們討論的主題就是行刑累進儲遇條例的相關的這些規定現在這些這些累進儲遇的這個機制那其實這個行刑累進儲遇條例除了制度上問題 其實已經"},{"start":8210.834,"end":8237.42,"text":"已經其實丟在放在那裡已經很久沒有都沒有進行修正了我們最後一次修正好像是2006年19年前做了修正以後就丟在那裡丟到然後放在那裡在制度繼續再用但是其實照理講就算在廢止之前也還有很多其實是應該要在廢止之前也要修正不過剛剛市長的意思是不是就是說我們現在就是"},{"start":8238.612,"end":8256.423,"text":"不管他有什麼問題他就放在那裡但是我們未來就是要等他廢止我們行政上可以處理的有一些部分其實不用動到修法用行政上面就可以處理但是還是有一些我們念法律的看了就有點刺眼的地方在第一條本法依照監獄刑刑法第20條"},{"start":8263.155,"end":8285.64,"text":"這個受累金處理者適用本條是規定齁那其實他應該是第18條第二項的這個授權啦齁那他就確實說這個立法他就說第20條如果我們這個法還要繼續用的話這一條我就覺得因為接應刑刑法在109年有大修過對啦有大修過啊但是這個沒有相對的修嘛當時沒有一併處理其實照理講我們現在就應該我如果要拼這個拼這個這個"},{"start":8289.201,"end":8307.492,"text":"這個國會評鑑我就應該要趕快再提一個按修法來這個但是我知道說我們法務部的態度基本上就是想要就是這個就不再修了就是把它等到它廢除廢止之前其他要改要改革的事項能夠用行政手段處理的都用行政規定去處理對不對那這個"},{"start":8310.515,"end":8317.43,"text":"所以我現在就回到說我們這個我們這個儲育機制的這個改革的方向我仔細看你們法務部的這個報告這個"},{"start":8320.99,"end":8347.26,"text":"其實這個有關於這個儲育機制的改革在2017年的私改會其實就有提到2017年私改會在這個這個第五分組裡面有關預證制度的改革其中第二次會議的決議裡面就在第四項就有提到說慎重考慮廢除累進儲育的制度這是他私改會的這個但是我們看這個私改會這樣子的決議其實"},{"start":8349.793,"end":8370.39,"text":"他也不敢說應該要廢除啦他還是說應該慎重考慮那所以這個就是一個為什麼這樣寫齁其實這個累進廚藥的制度齁雖然說在第二次世界大戰之後很多大部分的國家都已經就是盡量的把這個累進廚藥的方式齁改成這個所謂膳食制啦齁這按照個別風險評估下去做齁"},{"start":8373.663,"end":8390.79,"text":"但是我們看到現在有實施這些風險評估機制的國家包括像是美國的德州、加州、加拿大、英國、日本這些國家他們其實都沒有像我們台灣現在這種就是這種超額收容的情況嚴重"},{"start":8392.586,"end":8409.033,"text":"還有有關於這個教化人員跟受刑人比例的懸殊了這部分是我們目前要廢除這個我們想要改革目前儲育機制最大的問題就在於我們目前我們的這個收容超額收容的情況很嚴重"},{"start":8410.444,"end":8429.855,"text":"那我們的這個教化人員跟受刑人比例也非常懸殊甚至缺額我們上個禮拜就討論這個目前缺額的狀況教化人員不足那這個相關的這些社工心理背景的專業人員我們也幾乎都人數都付諸缺乳了所以"},{"start":8430.915,"end":8456.665,"text":"現在所以這也是為什麼私改會那時候說要慎重評估他也不敢做結論說我們應該就要廢止北京廚藝條例這是目前我們這些狀況但是我們也不能說因為這些狀況我們就繼續下去我們也就不改革了那我看這個2017年私改會之後我們這個在我們的報告裡面提到就是說我們也在"},{"start":8458.367,"end":8480.444,"text":"2018年2019年我們也分別委託了中央警察大學委託了中正大學我們有做研究針對這個累進處理條例做研究研究一直到這個2022年我們提出了一個正式的回應再有看是我們2022年 這是民國111年提出了一個深化受刑人個別處遇的實施計畫"},{"start":8481.82,"end":8495.619,"text":"就是說把過去的這個累進儲育我們未來我們在完全廢除累進儲育之前我們要我們先深化個別的儲育是不是這個方向是我們現在有在做對有啦齁那這個"},{"start":8497.18,"end":8522.371,"text":"這個部分就是我接下來要比較關注我們的這個個別儲育的計畫裡面我們把這個儲育方式我們把它有一個叫做個別儲育的三軸計畫這部分是不是請周組長來可能比較清楚就是說我們把這個受刑人在監獄儲育的期間應該受的繳制教育我們把它分成三種"},{"start":8523.511,"end":8551.871,"text":"一種是一般性的 一種是保護性的 一種是治療性的這個就是我按照你們的矯正期刊裡面還有你們的這個個別儲育這個深化的這個計畫的內容裡面找出來的就你們有把它分成三軸的儲育了那這個個別儲育的這個三軸計畫其實我整個看起來它最大的問題還是同樣跟剛才同樣的問題就是我們人力的配置"},{"start":8553.367,"end":8576.796,"text":"還有資源的落差還有風險的這個份額儲蓄能力的這些限制這是我們目前整個利用改革最大的問題這個像資源的落差我們現在這些我想知道說我們現在進行的這些包括社工、心理師、教化人力現在是不是足以支撐這套制度現有的"},{"start":8578.14,"end":8606.142,"text":"我們的新設人力我們近幾年有跟人總來爭取啦那人總也給我們核定從勞務成員變成A用人員那明年我們會提出我們事辦之後的一個成效來再報行政會明年才會提出是不是這本來就是我要問的明年要提出你們的這個成效評估到底在哪裡明年明年初提出這些這個這個"},{"start":8608.705,"end":8624.905,"text":"這個評估包括你這些個別處遇之後的這些人他們的這個回歸社會之後我們要長期追蹤他的災犯率包括針對他復歸社會的適應情形我覺得這個都是應該是我們整個這個個別處遇實施之後的評估成效評估的重要的"},{"start":8625.826,"end":8654.074,"text":"是 我們會綜合評估但是我們是以爭取新設人力為主因為我們的新設人力他不只是做這個所謂的個別處役他也有可能是會做毒品亂的處役性侵家暴處役都會協助這個部分就是我接下來大概會跟你比較深入的討論有關於治療性處役的部分尤其是毒品的部分"},{"start":8655.194,"end":8667.53,"text":"但是我在看到你們有實施一個事辦一個我個人認為非常好那我也想知道它的成效跟你們推廣計畫就是我目前齁在這個台南第二監獄有事辦這個受刑人個別處遇的自主管理卡"},{"start":8669.717,"end":8684.838,"text":"這個自主管理卡的這個計畫讓這個受刑人他在這個本於這個受刑人在他面對需要這些行政這個他能夠這個自主管理他的這個個別處遇的情況"},{"start":8686.019,"end":8704.809,"text":"讓受刑人能夠擔任自己專案的管理師讓這個教誨師轉化成一個督導的角色我個人認為說這個制度實施是非常好但是我知道現在好像只是在台南第二監獄裡面的業讀專班在實施"},{"start":8710.408,"end":8726.205,"text":"有沒有要擴大到先不要說擴大到全國啦你再除了戒毒專辦是不是整個這個臺南臺南至少在臺南第二監獄有沒有擴大報告委員這個部分是由南二監他自己去擬定計畫去試辦的"},{"start":8728.106,"end":8739.051,"text":"將來我們可以看到事辦完之後的結果請藍二間來我們署本部報告他的成效如何如果可以的話我們再來討論相關的擴大我要講的就是說不要說將來現在他們其實辦理這段時間已經有相當我個人認為有相當的成果是不是現在我們就來進行評估請他們現在就來報告他們辦理的"},{"start":8751.637,"end":8769.571,"text":"的狀況那是不是能夠擴大到能夠推廣到其他的全國的其他的地方我們是可以請他盡快來書裡面報告這個評估之後我希望你們三個月裡面提出報告啦不過三個月後署長已經退休了啦不過你們書裡面三個月提這個報告給我可以嗎"},{"start":8770.531,"end":8792.887,"text":"因為我們要先確認他事辦的成效怎麼樣結果到什麼階段第一個就是三個月的時間你們先了解他們現在事辦的狀況是不是容我們會後來了解實際的情況再跟委員回覆我就是要求三個月你們在三個月裡面去了解他現在事辦的成效"},{"start":8793.607,"end":8816.358,"text":"那去了解 去評估它是不是有推廣的可能是 是 好的那接下來我就是再講的就是剛剛所提到的這個有關毒品這個治療性處遇裡面的這些毒品戒營的部分這個部分其實其實這個我看現在目前的統計我們的這個受刑人幾乎有將近四成都是這個毒品危害防治法"},{"start":8817.708,"end":8841.19,"text":"也就是說我們現在這個其實是負擔很大到四成的受刑人都是因為這個毒品危害防治條例所以這個台灣毒品戒營的這種儲育體系它確實是一個很大的挑戰它也是我們改革這個儲育機制的一個很重要的關鍵但是我們目前全台的我們這些職能治療師"},{"start":8842.751,"end":8867.748,"text":"還有這個相關的這些人力其實都不夠啦那我們在目前我們是希望說我們跟衛福部能夠有一個合作的機制跟平台啦那這個部分現在我們目前有沒有這樣的狀況有沒有跟衛福部就在我們自己人力這些職能治療人力不足的情況之下我們有沒有跟衛福部來合作有相關的機制嗎有相關的平台嗎"},{"start":8870.554,"end":8892.091,"text":"我們相關的毒品的處理包括之前所謂的減害計畫美沙東替代療法我們都有跟以前叫做衛生署像衛福部來做合作相關的我們目前也都有跟衛福部的相關司處來做相關的精進"},{"start":8893.617,"end":8919.535,"text":"這個部分其實他也會牽涉他除了這個人力不足以外他更也會牽涉到他處於的資源的分配不均你在都市跟在其他的縣市這個這些資源也會分配不均我希望說這些機制能夠建立起來台南你不解決這個問題你要所有處於機制的改革都會卡到因為有4成的受刑人是這些毒品防治法的這些受刑人"},{"start":8920.055,"end":8937.009,"text":"所以這部分會是很關鍵最後我提一個這個上個禮拜但是大家社會上並沒有很注目但對我們來講是一個很重要的事情就是上個禮拜這個我們通過這個跟司法院會前之後通過少年事件處理法的這個修正"},{"start":8937.99,"end":8963.78,"text":"的修正啦齁那這個是行政院應該是行政院院會通過啦齁那這個基本上這整個少年事件處理法它這個修法的重點齁就是讓這個少年事件的這些處遇齁能夠它的保護處分齁它能夠轉換它之間有多元化它可以轉換機制啦齁這是第一個重點另外一個重點就是有關於檢討這個修正前案塗銷的一些相關規定啦齁"},{"start":8965.18,"end":8979.887,"text":"因為這個修法會涉及到包括法院的部分包括檢查體系包括社政包括教育包括警政有很多不同的主管機關其實他這個配合這個修法他都必須要同步的修訂一些有關一些相關規定所以我希望說你們這個"},{"start":8985.309,"end":9005.358,"text":"應該要同步的修正這個少年保護官的手冊跟處遇的評估工具那也需要盤點相關的配套啦市長這部分 因為我們準備要進行這樣的修正 省政院會已經通過了我需要相關的配套跟委員報告齁 因為這個少年事件處理法 還有剛剛委員提到的少年保護官齁都是司法院的權責"},{"start":9006.038,"end":9021.546,"text":"我知道那所以我們會配合提出我們這邊對你們這邊有你們這邊保護有一些相關的盤點要盤點你們相關的這些配套你們還是要進行這些配套的修正我們會提出來是謝謝好謝謝沈發慧委員接下來請吳思堯委員宣導"},{"start":9043.735,"end":9057.695,"text":"好謝謝主席辛苦了然後請次長請黃次長還有署長哪一個周署長周署長我特別要請石崇良署長石署長衛福部市委好"},{"start":9059.517,"end":9085.885,"text":"好 大家辛苦了真的很謝謝我們主席這段時間透過排鑽報告以及去現場的考察讓我們對於育政的改革有很多共同的共識但是它畢竟是一個漫長的道路那今天也是為了準備今天的質詢我才特別去了解了現行的我們累進儲育的相關的做法它真的很不人性那個石署長您在這裡"},{"start":9087.905,"end":9103.632,"text":"社會處方籤這個從英國開始倡議的透過導入社會處方籤也是透過藝術透過運動或是透過接觸綠色植物乃至於透過閱讀它有非常多的方式讓"},{"start":9105.741,"end":9118.356,"text":"長照也好或是心理健康衝擊他需要去緩解情緒的人乃至於到癒症的體系的使用世衛處方謙你們現在到底進展到哪裡了"},{"start":9119.522,"end":9137.894,"text":"在台灣跟委員報告確實從越來越多的證據發現慢性病其實不是單純靠藥物它很多跟生活習慣相關所以近年來在各國都慢慢地在導入"},{"start":9138.775,"end":9155.046,"text":"不論是在美國叫做生活型態醫學或者是在英國、加拿大稱為社會處方籤都是類似的除了藥物之外要把營養、運動、壓力的調節甚至社會的連結叫做social connection"},{"start":9158.908,"end":9178.819,"text":"都要把它 您說的比較偏向physical health如果在mental health我們對應於預症革新的這種在社會化的部分 你要不要分享一下那當然這個需要有資源的連結啦 就社會處方雖然是經過評估之後 那麼認為他這個"},{"start":9180.74,"end":9193.894,"text":"病人的需要要朝哪個方向去做調整可是他需要有其他的資源這個不全是醫療資源沒錯 他需要有視覺藝術博物館群的協力或者是表演藝術兩聽院 音樂廳的協力"},{"start":9197.558,"end":9211.694,"text":"好 謝謝署長我還是期待因為我一段時間沒有就這個主題就教於您今天藉這個機會從英國2019年全方位的他們去設立的這個社會處方國家研究院開始他們"},{"start":9212.435,"end":9216.076,"text":"透過他們目標就是去年達標2024年要達到有90萬人以上使用了社會處房錢而且經過學術的這個檢視跟政策的檢視確實達到了他們對於門診量少了12%"},{"start":9229.541,"end":9251.153,"text":"對於醫療的這個這個花費減少了15%到20%另外很重要的是每投資一英鎊可以回收3.5英鎊的對於整體不管是physical health或是mental health的健康回收所以我們一定要持續的強化我後續會用一個比較系統性的再跟行政部門來做討論好您請回"},{"start":9253.444,"end":9278.403,"text":"我分享這些是要給次長跟周署長有一些反饋當我在研究你們這個不同等級的受刑人擁有不同的權利然後受刑人的管理的這個級別的分類他累積分數我覺得住處就是說他的監所可以放放花草"},{"start":9279.437,"end":9288.826,"text":"他可以學畫畫或是他可以擁有書籍或是他可以擁有家屬的照片或是他可以聽音樂這些東西請問你們現在的分級"},{"start":9294.831,"end":9313.818,"text":"這些所謂的社會處方我剛剛對應於就是說去討養一個人在社會化他的心性可是在你們的不同級別的受刑人擁有的不同權利的分級裡頭反而對於很需要去再處遇再教化的人他是很難得到這些競變性耶對於音樂藝術書籍都很難對不對"},{"start":9318.294,"end":9338.622,"text":"我們監所對於剛剛委員講的應該是一種植物療法也好藝術療法也好我們並不會限於說他一定要累進除疫比如二級才能參加那是額外你們辦的但是如果在自己的空間裡頭享有的權利"},{"start":9339.582,"end":9356.281,"text":"他擁有一本書可以聽音樂這樣子的作為一個人能夠去調養他的心性的都因為他的犯案的刑期不同他被剝奪了他同樣禁用藝術文化的權利"},{"start":9357.142,"end":9373.933,"text":"我了解你們的管理需求對不起那個次長在皺眉頭沒關係我來把我的論述講一下首先我還是要先說空間跟人力是我們整個育政改革的核心我支持你們去推動更多的空間改革下一頁"},{"start":9374.733,"end":9388.944,"text":"但是空間改革我要提醒你們就你們自己希望的是每個受刑人的這個享有的空間不小於一坪啦但是這是目標現行的法規是只有到0.7坪"},{"start":9390.365,"end":9413.072,"text":"好這是法規面但是你們的這個矯正署參酌聯合國的最低標準規格希望能夠略大於一坪可是現在所有的改革方案都沒有辦法達到OK不要讓它只是遙遠的理想如果哪一個擴建方案可以逐步達到我們真的都不要放棄好我要再一次提醒好下一頁"},{"start":9414.42,"end":9442.553,"text":"那空間之外就人力我這邊呈現出來的是我上一次質詢有提到的介護人員、教化人員、新設人員跟執訓人員的人力比而當中比較餘裕的是新設人員我上一次質詢有提出來來下一頁好這個是公共電視去年有一個節目他們是在探討其實連寓所的管理員他們的工作場域都非常的"},{"start":9443.533,"end":9470.838,"text":"糟糕是不是寓所的管理員如同這個劇裡頭所呈現他們連值班的地方都沒有冷氣是這樣嗎應該不是這樣包括他背景是休息的地方是有冷氣的包括我們有一些像豐原書斋它裡面也有冷氣包括煮咖啡那邊等於給他休閒用的地方會有但是如果是在工廠或是社房"},{"start":9471.818,"end":9501.321,"text":"我們就是會有所謂的抽風扇、電風扇那個是沒有冷氣那但是我們也會看溫度來同時打開所謂的抽風扇跟電風扇所以說這個戲劇當中所呈現的寓所管理員的這個心聲並不完全符合事實就對了因為如果說相關的活動在我們的教會堂也都會開冷氣嘛因為人那麼多你不開冷氣可能有人會暈倒"},{"start":9501.761,"end":9529.066,"text":"那我希望真的是我多慮了這透過一個這個節目的呈現確實讓我們也關心起寓所管理員他本身的工作的環境跟狀態下業但事實上離退率是越來越高我們這個也不容否認不管是辭職的、退休的、商調的人數都因為他的管教壓力大我們都高於世界各國這上週我們已經處理過了"},{"start":9530.146,"end":9552.885,"text":"所以呢 我們還是要在空間跟人力上努力去做 處理 下一頁那回到剛剛我要求教於次長喔累進制是我們現在做的但是不管司改會也好 或你們今天自己的報告也好都說我們希望能夠跟進世界朝一個風險評估的膳食制去推進你剛剛也說"},{"start":9554.046,"end":9580.176,"text":"傾向會把累進制這個處遇條例可能未來未來我不曉得是多久以後的未來來進行廢止可是這當中我非常同意剛剛我們這個昭偉他最後的一個結論其實隱藏在整個遇政的管理思維的背後他是一個國家治理官台灣持續的用管理的導向在面對我們的遇政可事實上如果多往人權的方向去"},{"start":9581.441,"end":9609.109,"text":"貼近一點或者是教化的部分多貼近一點他會有完全不同的思維這就是我剛剛說的下一頁為什麼因為我看到你們不同等級受刑人擁有不同權利一級二級三級四級然後不同刑度的人要累積多少分才能夠享有他親近書籍親近聽音樂然後放家屬的照片我都覺得這個很不人性"},{"start":9610.652,"end":9635.944,"text":"對於一個人來講我認為他的藝術的親近權都是可以去加強他的處遇協助他再社會化我認為他不應當因為他的行度而去剝奪了他這些權利可是你們現在矯正署說的國情不同所以呢超額收容然後這個受刑人跟教化人員人數懸殊比"},{"start":9637.042,"end":9654.939,"text":"很懸殊以致於我們這個實施風險評估的條件畏懼我都理解這是現在的困境可是這是一個大災問也是我要挑戰的為什麼他們對於清淨書籍音樂因為他的積分很多人在是沒有辦法享有這些權利的我不懂"},{"start":9660.482,"end":9678.751,"text":"沒關係也許我理解錯誤但是可以說明因為有一些細節譬如說因為我們都有圖書室然後還有一些就是剛委員說的這些私人物品這些東西是不是真的跟那個累進有那麼深的直接執行關係可能我們會後我們再提供給委員實際執行狀況"},{"start":9680.632,"end":9698.766,"text":"那我想這個因為剛剛我們今天在報告也有提到就是說這個累進的行刑累進處於條例目前我們修法的進度已經報送這個行政院剛剛才最近這幾天報送那他會搭配新的這個監獄刑刑法的修改然後這個所謂傳統的累進制"},{"start":9702.549,"end":9728.505,"text":"這樣的一個制度會做大幅的調整但是也稱呼剛剛非常正確的提出來就是說軟硬體的設施還有我們人力的這個不只是數量的問題還有這個專業這個可能管理的制度都要做調整那我們為了維持這個安全跟這個社會上的穩定所以我們是穿著西裝改西裝所以我們會在這個方向上"},{"start":9729.245,"end":9751.15,"text":"逐步的來往這個所謂的善時制因為這其實都是ideal type它並不是說怎麼樣具體的條文是怎麼樣所以我們會往這個方向去做我們也當然希望推動更貼近人權然後更個別化處理的相關的這些做法那但是誠如剛剛署長也有提到這個新設人力我們也是在最近這幾年"},{"start":9752.37,"end":9774.847,"text":"向人種來爭取那也是從這個醫師人員要改成這個約用 約固那我們會一步一步因為每一個階段都要被檢討這個成效是否有效益然後我們才能夠再往前進那當然還有硬體改善的部分我們也陸陸續續都排定了很多的計畫那因為真的很多的這個設防都是非常的老舊"},{"start":9776.168,"end":9794.013,"text":"我們現在如果去做這些改善可能效果也有限我們會全力來推動逐年在國家財政允許的情況底下逐年來做改善好 時間到了也超過時間了我是真的很懇切的分享我長期投入藝術工作的心得"},{"start":9795.013,"end":9808.325,"text":"導入了藝術文化也許從閱讀也許從音樂也許從觀賞當然在監獄裡頭他不太可能直接去觀賞這個所謂社會處房間去看去美術館去表演音樂聽可是透過給他們聆聽音樂跟閱讀書籍"},{"start":9813.73,"end":9835.202,"text":"我認為這都是很小的成本只是從管理我確實知道你們管理層面你們都希望管理方便也擔心這當中會不會有危險的因子可是我認為這是非常低廉的成本和會達到一個教化的效果至少安定comfort這些受刑人的情緒這是非常重要這是小小的"},{"start":9836.604,"end":9857.255,"text":"成本它會有你意想不到的效益不要單純從管理方面的思維去思考如果次長有機會去看一下你們的累進儲育的積分我怎麼看對於獸型他可能型度高一點的人他連拿到一本書他要累積多少分啊他要累積三四百分以上"},{"start":9858.922,"end":9879.7,"text":"就 我不知道還是我解讀錯誤這個執行的細節我們再跟我們報告好 因為我非常想要一起去理解我希望我沒有理解錯誤我想講的你們都非常清楚有一些東西是小小的成本也許會有不同的效益包括我一直在催生的可以讓我們的貓狗的療癒的功能"},{"start":9880.16,"end":9896.237,"text":"在比較世界各國的經驗你們現在開始做全訓班很好但是很多東西這都有醫學的實證好不好我們後續如果有機會只是比較可惜啊署長這段時間林旭秋波每天都質詢您但就這個部分我可以私下再跟您多一點討論就叫跟您請教好嗎請教的跟委員報告好"},{"start":9899.74,"end":9922.774,"text":"我們對於讀書會 我們都積極來推動包括說 不可能是說你要幾集才可以借書我們包括行動 行為 書車 也都是鼓勵大家來借所以這個有幫助求情穩定所以這個部分我們都會那如果都有的話 為什麼要有不同層級的這些"},{"start":9925.356,"end":9936.192,"text":"住所可放花草書籍家屬照片規定的這麼嚴格你所說的是我有一個共同的機會你可以來讀書有一個共同的機會你可以來聽音樂那"},{"start":9937.952,"end":9960.528,"text":"共同集會的機會有多少甚至包括他們擁有收音機小型電視一般可以到九點他們都可以來聽的他們有適度的自由我們再討論但就我的理解好像沒有這麼簡單啦好不好沒關係我們繼續討論也辛苦了署長我不曉得下次還有沒有機會質詢您"},{"start":9962.629,"end":9968.894,"text":"不可能嗎?好,沒關係,我們稍後就有一個學者專家的身份來跟您討論政策,謝謝,也謝謝次長,謝謝好,謝謝吳四耀委員你剛才說的那三個月,不過兩個人一整三個禮拜要退休其實這是一個大問題啦,這個確實是受刑人我們一般在講啊,就是說這個除了硬報以外,我們要給他矯正然後我們在整個服刑期間,要讓他這個整個"},{"start":9992.733,"end":10000.084,"text":"情緒又要去穩定比較有名的講法是說要讓他的保有"},{"start":10001.348,"end":10024.538,"text":"基本人權是因為它復歸到這個社會復歸到這個社會是為了整體的社會的絕大多數人融合是好事啦是為了全體啦所以這個是大家在問很有名的一個問題討論多久看你站在什麼樣的一個角度那我們現在先休息五分鐘以後再接續的一個尋討"},{"start":10479.346,"end":10488.429,"text":"好 我們繼續 現在繼續開會接下來我們要請 來 我們最美麗的翁曉琳委員尋答謝謝主席 那麼這邊先有請黃次長黃次長待會還有那個陳廷長陳怡陳廷長"},{"start":10513.98,"end":10527.035,"text":"我們知道其實這個我有看到法務部的資料在這兩次的報告裡面其實也都有顯示出目前我們的看守所基本上都有超收的狀況"},{"start":10527.956,"end":10536.34,"text":"至少有12家看守所當中就有10家的看守所是超收而且超收的比率還蠻高將近30%由此可見就是這個矯正所還有其實當然還有監獄都人滿為患"},{"start":10544.284,"end":10573.067,"text":"那麼我們再看看就是地方檢察署他的向法院申請的羈押人數其實也是逐年攀高而且法院裁定准許的羈押人數的比例都將近高達八成那麼事實上就是我們知道這個如果說八成的這犯罪嫌疑人都會被裁定羈押的話那麼這當然有可能就是會造成我們現在的看守所"},{"start":10573.867,"end":10596.205,"text":"裡面的這個容納量會明顯的會超出原來的這個負荷那麼當然這個羈押它本身是對於犯罪行為犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由的剝奪在行使申請羈押以及法院裁定羈押的時候其實都要特別注意到有關於犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由的保障那麼"},{"start":10598.231,"end":10608.906,"text":"事實上我想請教法務部跟司法院就是你們認為現行羈押制度有沒有需要改進的地方包含羈押的要件 期間次數等等"},{"start":10610.403,"end":10636.971,"text":"我先跟委員說明 所謂的八成並不是所有的被告的八成因為可以看到委員畫面上呈現這個表事實上所有的新收偵查人數是在最左邊那八成是指其中檢察官如果有向法院來申請羈押的那個核准率大概是八成其實也不到八成 大概都是從七成四 七成三現在到最近是大概七成八 七成九左右"},{"start":10637.851,"end":10667.079,"text":"那這個部分因為是刺涉這個偵查的具體個案的內容所以這個判斷權是在這個報案的假官身上那所以說這個部分呢我想要尊重這個假官假機關行使他法定職權的這個權利那法院的部分我們再請是因為我想現在的這個羈押制度這個民間有很多的批評"},{"start":10667.915,"end":10682.483,"text":"那麼我們有看到有一些看起來是輕罪但是也是去涉及羈押然後呢這個羈押的時間而且越拖越長所以這個部分來講的話司法院有沒有參考其他國家的制度要進行相關的檢討"},{"start":10684.658,"end":10705.485,"text":"跟委員報告這個關於刑事羈押的部分其實是涉及到刑事政策委員剛才講說有沒有修正的必要這個是涉及到刑事政策跟制度的檢討那至於個案中這個才準博羈押的決定那我想還是尊重法官在個案裡面"},{"start":10705.925,"end":10718.455,"text":"好的一個一個職權的行使那因為我今天是就本院這個來關於獄政跟受刑人處遇的是好了因為陳廷長並不是刑事廳的廳長所以這邊的話可能沒有辦法就是很完整的"},{"start":10724.759,"end":10749.27,"text":"來談這個議題那麼我想在這裡的話就是可能要請司法院之後要給我一份報告或者是我不知道現在司法院有沒有一套客觀的評估標準就是可以協助法官來判斷是否有逃亡或再犯風險有沒有採驗證據串證涉及到核准羈押的相關的作業標準對這個部分不知道就是司法院是不是自己有訂定一個內部的"},{"start":10751.282,"end":10772.841,"text":"報告委員 因為這一部分形式部分我不是很熟悉那如果委員今天垂詢的事項有具體的指示那我都可以帶回到院裡面然後委員需要說書面的再跟委員說明我們也可以配合辦理如果說你們有評估標準的話把這個部分送給我有關於羈押"},{"start":10776.264,"end":10785.094,"text":"羈押的相關制度如果司法院自己內部過去曾經有做過相關研習報告或者是說你們自己已經有訂定一套可以客觀"},{"start":10787.792,"end":10802.843,"text":"這個協助法官可以客觀評估相關的羈押的這個標準的規則那也請你們提供給我至少我們在網路上面我好像沒有看到你們有訂立相關的標準那接下來我要請教的另外一個問題就是說因為本席從109年的監察院的報告書裡面有看到"},{"start":10807.126,"end":10811.228,"text":"就是經過司法院自己的統計形式補償的事件從101年到109年8月核准的補償確定的統計件數是903件核准的補償金額是3億5000多萬元那可是像失職公務員求償成功的案件數只有5件求償的成功的金額只有23萬"},{"start":10829.858,"end":10850.656,"text":"那麼就這個議題來講請教為什麼對於刑事補償的案件向失職公務員求償的成功率是如此之低那麼原因是何在我們知道其實依照刑事補償法裡面的規定只要是依照刑事訴訟法軍事審判法少年事件處理法等等這些受理的案件受害人如果因為行為不法"},{"start":10851.116,"end":10879.819,"text":"或是犯罪嫌疑不足而经过不起诉处分或是撤回起诉受驳回起诉裁定或无罪的判决确定之前他曾经有受过积压、鉴定、留置或收容的情况那么受害人都可以请求国家赔偿那么我们可以看到在过去的这些年101年到109年当时这个核准可以去补偿这些受害人的确定件数就高达903件然后核准的金额也非常高3亿多万"},{"start":10880.765,"end":10906.835,"text":"那就代表說基本上就是法官或檢察官在核准這些案件 羈押案件或收留案件的這個程序上面可能有失誤所以呢才會給予受害人有補償嘛對 那但是事後的這個部分有關於再去追究像失職公務員求償的情況當時是說有五件 那到目前為止求償的狀況如何"},{"start":10908.842,"end":10937.075,"text":"報告委員這一個部分如果委員要很精確的統計資料的話那我們可能也是會後再提供給委員可以嗎因為我手邊目前也沒有資料那法務部有沒有知道相關的訊息跟委員報告因為相關這個法令跟委員會面上所講的這個球場審查委員會都是司法院的辦理的業務大家歡迎請司法院再提供給我一直到現在為止到底這個成功的向失職的公務員球場的案件數"},{"start":10938.396,"end":10951.834,"text":"有多少然後以及他就是以及這個球場比例喔那麼我們當然認為說如果說從現在的球場的這個情況來看的話雖然說這些年來是有下降但是這下降的情況"},{"start":10953.843,"end":10975.401,"text":"事實上我也覺得也挺訝異的就是跟之前的比怎麼會差別那麼多是因為這個我們的在整個審查這個羈押的相關的作業越來越精準還是說是這個申請的駁回率很高那這個部分話因為我們也看不太出來實際的情況那麼這個如果說你們有最近這段時間從100"},{"start":10981.566,"end":11004.118,"text":"10年到113年或114年目前的有關於求償的狀況的資料那麼也麻煩請你也一併請司法院給我相關的統計資料好那麼接下來我要問的問題就是有關於高齡化犯罪的問題我們知道其實現在65歲以上高齡犯罪的人口"},{"start":11004.958,"end":11018.424,"text":"是逐年攀升依照內政部警政署的統計從去年113年的9到12月高齡犯罪的嫌疑人就9000多人那麼今年又再增加了2000人來到11000"},{"start":11022.365,"end":11042.875,"text":"148人所以高齡犯罪的處遇相關的法律規範以及配套措施基本上是一個非常重要的議題那麼我們再想請教法務部就是目前針對高齡犯罪者的犯罪預防和處遇的部分你們有沒有進行過相關的研究以及目前提供有哪些特殊的措施以及規範"},{"start":11044.959,"end":11062.675,"text":"跟委員報告 因為我們是主責犯罪偵查跟起訴以及後續刑罰的執行犯罪預防的部分可能要請教其他單位那請 那個委員所提出來的數據大概就是兩劑就是去年第四劑跟今年的第一劑"},{"start":11063.536,"end":11080.112,"text":"那兩季的比較可能就是剛好這個數字有降可能要看更長期的資料來確定說這個高齡化的情形如何當然因為我們國家進入高齡化社會人口的比例本身就要變化了所以這個部分到底相關性如何我們會再去看一下那這邊的話是可以請周署長"},{"start":11081.673,"end":11107.458,"text":"除业部分我再请周署长来说明一下因为我们知道现在最近光是看到几个严重的车祸可能都是高龄者所造成的那么当然现在高龄犯罪的问题就是这些受刑人他们可能本身或许有失智或是其他一些疾病的一些状况那么就矫正机关这里有没有什么一些特别的考量给他们做一些特殊的处理"},{"start":11108.158,"end":11132.954,"text":"是 報告委員我們針對這個法令的部分我們已經修訂了所謂的高齡受刑人的生活指引處於指引另外我們對於每個監獄要求他們要落實所謂的老人工廠被高齡的受刑人要給他適合他的工廠另外就是說我們對於"},{"start":11134.435,"end":11146.902,"text":"醫療院所的合作醫療院所我們會盡量來所謂的老年門診的部分來加強當然這個還要跟衛福部再做溝通做一些協調這方面我們也會來加強辦理"},{"start":11150.17,"end":11178.466,"text":"對 現在因為有學者有建議是不是我們政府應該要參考少年事件處理法的這個法規來訂定一個高齡的專法這當然是有人有這樣的建議那我認為說其實現在台灣已經步入到所謂超高齡社會那未來可能高齡犯罪的情況會越來越嚴重 越來越多那麼我認為說法務部 矯正署等等這裡其實都要提早做一些準備那麼看起來你們現在也只是就是在個案"},{"start":11178.986,"end":11195.784,"text":"的部分自己監索內部做一些這個特別的處理但是呢就未來整體制度來講可能跟衛福部或是在執行就法務部矯正署這裡應該可以更積極的參考其他國家的法制提出更"},{"start":11197.726,"end":11218.887,"text":"更好的一個相關的法規範是跟委員報告對於高齡受刑人民國96年我剛好有機會奉派去考察日本的監所刑務所那其實他們對於高齡受刑人而且有傷高的這些慢性疾病者"},{"start":11219.508,"end":11233.392,"text":"他們是有編制營養師他每天的卡路里相關的他們在96年就有營養師我非常羨慕當然我們現在堅守沒有營養師將來我們可能面臨高齡的挑戰將來可能營養師是有必要減輕他等於是說這些病"},{"start":11243.424,"end":11260.3,"text":"等於慢性病減少他的外衣營養是不是給他吃好而是說對他的身體有益的一些調配是 我了解這個周署長這邊民國96年的時候去參考過去看過日本的制度因為現在大概又過了將近"},{"start":11261.641,"end":11276.087,"text":"二十年吧就是這幾年可能日本那裡有一些變化甚至他們可能更精進他們的這個照顧高齡受刑人的相關的制度所以有機會的話可以再去看看他們那裡的實際的做法那麼我想就是說剛周署長講到營養師引進營養師這個概念很好但是我們其實現在連介護人力比裡面都是明顯的不足"},{"start":11285.311,"end":11302.899,"text":"這個不管是攝服人力啦還有這個教化人力等等這個是全面都不需要去檢討相關人力運用的問題好 那我們這邊的話也希望就是周署長能夠加把勁在這個矯正的人力的地補上面能夠提出一個更好的一個方案好 謝謝委員"},{"start":11306.158,"end":11321.278,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳委員因為今天司法院派陳庭長他是屬於受刑人的權力救濟的部分所以翁委員所提到的資料部門也請司法院可以一併來做一個提供"},{"start":11324.361,"end":11325.622,"text":"楊瓊英委員蘇清泉委員"},{"start":11352,"end":11356.229,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我先請法務部次長請黃次長"},{"start":11362.763,"end":11385.122,"text":"市長 先請教一下中選會在4月15日說受到61件罷免案其中41件涉嫌偽造還有往生者連署都以寒轉最高檢查署告發我想請問一下法務部目前現在偵辦的進度如何 已經全部偵查完畢了嗎"},{"start":11389.591,"end":11410.171,"text":"我想這個每個個案都不一樣有的偵辦進入都不相同我是說每個案子因為這裡面很多案嘛每個案子的偵辦進入都不相同有的已經起訴法如報紙所登載所以基本上對於如果受到告發包含偽照還有"},{"start":11411.352,"end":11422.62,"text":"就是死人連署 亡生者連署我們法務部都會辦都會 這個地檢署如果有收到相關的情資或是說這個 告發移送告發我們都會立案偵辦一定會辦好 那我希望我們這個的司法偵辦不能夠辦藍不辦綠不能選擇顏色辦案市長同意嗎我想沒有這種情形一定會公平的處理"},{"start":11436.889,"end":11454.456,"text":"那麼在上個星期五在傍晚的時候中選會就公布了被罷免的立法委員在第二階段連署人的查對結果結果一共罷免的案件數是31案"},{"start":11457.097,"end":11467.148,"text":"不符合規定的人數高達157226份平均每個案子違規人數高達5071份 超過5000份平均一個案子都超過5000份 這非常"},{"start":11474.736,"end":11496.732,"text":"多 在過去呢我印象裡面就是當時郭台銘去選總統的時候5270多份 那個時候大家已經嚇到了有這麼多的違規的這個份數但是呢 你可以看到這個只是平均喔 平均都超過5000份好 那麼剛才"},{"start":11500.715,"end":11523.107,"text":"次長也說 有立案 偵查就會辦有些都起訴了 有些都關人了這裡面包含罷免吳思瑤跟吳佩儀兩位委員大搜索 大羈押包含黃綠主委 還有其實很多的國民黨的黨部主委現在都被關起來那吳思瑤是幾份呢 2674份"},{"start":11526.008,"end":11543.003,"text":"吳佩奕2537份 辦得風風火火辦到已經起訴 辦到已經羈押所以我剛才說 像我們現在以星期五所公布的數字高達15萬7千多份所以這樣子的一個這麼嚴重的違規 所以次長你認為該不該辦"},{"start":11552.551,"end":11567.879,"text":"委員我想檢查機關只要收到告訴告發或有其他具體的事證都會依法來偵辦那麼因為法務部是做法務行政所以我們對於這些案子我們不會去干涉指示或是有具體任何的好"},{"start":11568.659,"end":11594.244,"text":"好 非常好 一定不能是看顏色來辦案一定要應該一視同仁那在這邊呢 我就直接再跟法務部再來做告發來 我們下一頁 我剛才講到的是總體的是超過15萬7千多份好 那我們在這一次看到這個大罷免 大羈押 大搜索"},{"start":11595.744,"end":11615.02,"text":"辦到很多是說 有這麼多死亡連署 偽造連署這個當然要辦 那我就直接來跟我們法部來做告發譬如說在星期五公佈的丁學忠委員的案子死亡連署高達27人 偽造連署高達298份"},{"start":11622.557,"end":11646.175,"text":"副官企委員也是一樣 連署前死亡人數14人那麼江啟臣 江啟臣還沒有成案但是江啟臣連署前死亡人數已經高達44人另外呢 也是還有劉浩委員 還沒有成案而他的連署前死亡人數就高達56人"},{"start":11648.817,"end":11669.588,"text":"那當然我們這邊當然希望中選會能夠一視同仁的來做告發來做舉報但是呢因為中選會呢可能慢半拍因為現在呢其實已經進入了大罷免那比較有這個特別比較有那個爭議性的是江啟臣跟游浩委員兩位委員他們還在補件當中"},{"start":11673.49,"end":11678.034,"text":"按照 辦吳思瑤 辦吳沛毅的一個潛力的話那麼應該 中選會應該立即告罰八部檢調應該立刻偵辦我是說比照 雙吳 吳思瑤 吳沛毅同樣的江啟臣 游浩 也是一樣前面兩位已經呈案了但是呢 也應該要辦"},{"start":11698.129,"end":11726.328,"text":"那麼還沒有成案的更需要辦要更需要比照無私藥無配意來辦那麼請問一下次長同不同意我想委員每個個案他的具體的犯罪事實的偵查要由個案具體承辦的檢察官他去依法來調查認定那所以說我們在程序上一定會這個所有中選會有來告發因為他是上禮拜五現在是禮拜一假設他有我們都會用同樣的程序來辦理"},{"start":11727.208,"end":11734.335,"text":"一定要用同樣程序來辦因為吳思耀 吳佩儀在連署當中過去中選會這次是第一次在連署過程中他就告發是由審辦的檢察官來決定不要跟我講這些啦所有審辦檢察官笨藍的時候笨藍營連署的時候呢都風風火火 十萬火急"},{"start":11751.832,"end":11755.755,"text":"然後現在呢 就要拖拖拉拉嗎這個就是變成選擇性辦案那另外 我在這邊也要特別提到因為這一次我們在選罷法裡面 我想因為這個"},{"start":11767.742,"end":11795.248,"text":"市長選舉經驗也很豐富在選罷法裡面其實明明白白的規定第一階段的提議人不能夠充當第二階段的連署人這個是法有明文規定您也是這個法律背景但是在這一次的罷免案裡面大量充斥第一階段的提議人在裡面充數"},{"start":11796.568,"end":11822.451,"text":"而且呢他的比例幾乎全面的高達八成以上全面喔他不是有些人高有些人低不是喔全面高達八成以上而且呢有一些委員的第一階段提議人去變成第二階段連署員的比例還在九成以上比如說羅志強委員賴世保委員我個人呢也高達八十八趴好"},{"start":11823.932,"end":11849.691,"text":"所以這個就奇怪囉照理講每一個霸團有些多有些少這個是比較合理全面都在八成以上如果我沒有記錯都在八成五以上所以這是不是形容聯合違規組織犯罪我想這個中選會是主管這個法規他有他的說明了那當然個案中檢察官自己可以再去認定全面都八成以上"},{"start":11851.339,"end":11856.363,"text":"這不是聯合行為嗎我們不是法定的主管機構罷免國民黨的立委不忍苛責"},{"start":11862.62,"end":11883.026,"text":"沒事周選會在說這是組織犯罪請問一下全部的霸團三十多個霸團同樣的有志一同的把這些提議人全部塞成第二階段的連署人這難道不是一個聯合行為跟組織行為嗎好 時間暫停一下我請一下我們的矯正署周署長"},{"start":11892.317,"end":11892.519,"text":"請周署長"},{"start":11896.809,"end":11925.02,"text":"我們在上個星期特別提到有關於我們現在在監獄環境其實有一些很多的問題而且是大家通案的問題就是我們的收容人數太多然後呢我們的相關的就介護人員不足還有一些心理輔導的不足那麼我們在這三天就是這一個禮拜"},{"start":11926.345,"end":11943.743,"text":"即便我們有專題報告但是呢短短三天就出現了兩起的攻擊事件這個包含台東的東城監獄裡面呢出現了他去那個看診護理師呢結果呢他就是拿筆去攻擊護理師攻擊他的臉攻擊他的脖子說這個是情緒失控"},{"start":11949.269,"end":11969.389,"text":"好那在6月9號呢也一樣這是同寢室的受刑人也不知道為什麼結果就打起來了打到對方疑似骨折他意思就是說睡覺的時候互相干擾好那麼署長現在天氣越來越炎熱"},{"start":11970.61,"end":11985.846,"text":"我覺得這也是我們在監獄管理裡面一個非常大的一個考驗對不對天氣越來越炎熱老師說了在監獄裡面幾個人擠成一團可能都是彪形大漢"},{"start":11987.407,"end":12008.088,"text":"睡覺也會碰碰撞撞走路也會碰碰撞撞我們其實即便我們在冷氣房裡面也難免這麼天氣熱也都會心浮氣躁所以我想請教一下在這一段氣候越來越炎熱的時候我們有沒有一些特別有什麼辦法"},{"start":12009.769,"end":12024.322,"text":"來做讓我們的受刑人在情緒管理上他不要受到這樣的氣候炎熱的影響我們降低像我剛才講的短短幾天三天就出現兩起的暴力事件更不要說我們之前討論的"},{"start":12026.664,"end":12039.716,"text":"這個介護人員還要求要求這個受刑人給他口交的事情那個是很嚴重啦那這個是受刑人自己的情緒失控這有沒有什麼辦法先來做一些改善"},{"start":12040.916,"end":12061.184,"text":"報告委員天氣炎熱確實會跟囚情有相關所以我們各角證機關在夏天的時候在六日會比如說給發給受刑人那個所謂的礦潛水結冰的礦潛水給他們做散熱用"},{"start":12061.984,"end":12075.704,"text":"另外就是我們在所謂的三餐我們會一個禮拜有一次給他吃綠豆湯退火的會有這些安排"},{"start":12077.639,"end":12098.971,"text":"這個部分啦 那當然那一個禮拜只有一餐退伙一次大概是一個禮拜一次啦那另外六天不可能每天吃啦 一個禮拜會有一次我覺得看怎麼樣其實這問題還是在於我們是在太極中我最近收到一個台東太原監獄受刑人他裡面講的洋洋灑灑很多啦裡面包含"},{"start":12099.551,"end":12103.515,"text":"這個其實這個長期我覺得你們一定要非常小心就在監獄裡面買東西特別貴而且物價非常地問題這個另外一個他特別提到今年初發生了一個事件喔那麼他們因為吃了那個香腸整個烤得黑黑的這樣子然後吃完之後呢大家集體地上吐下瀉非常嚴重"},{"start":12123.392,"end":12137.38,"text":"後來變成所謂的諾魯病毒可是他們認為自己是食物中毒不是諾魯病毒等於是把它講成是一個好像只是只是病毒感染事件那我要講就剛才講夏天天氣炎熱除了情緒管理之外在飲食衛生上要特別特別的注意這麼多人一個寢室裡面"},{"start":12148.647,"end":12176.426,"text":"六個人四個人在那邊上吐下瀉上吐下瀉你就知道原來衛生的環境就非常非常差然後那會更差所以在這段時間是我們一個非常大的考驗有一些我們剛剛講基本的問題它也許不是短時間它就可以解決我們希望能夠改善你們能夠改善但是呢在因為這個氣候的因素還有就是在夏季衛生食品的管理"},{"start":12177.667,"end":12191.689,"text":"也拜託能夠多費一些心好不好是 報告委員我們那個合作社都會去仿價但是仿價大概是以超商的價格不可以高於超商的價格那"},{"start":12192.13,"end":12206.21,"text":"所以你們這一部分因為這個其實我覺得他寫的不是很清楚但是他提到這部分是所以拜託我們會去留意是不是確實有包圍不要跑監獄裡面價格就翻倍了這是絕對不能容許的好不好是好謝謝"},{"start":12207.632,"end":12220.924,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝王宏威委員我先處理一下會議時間我們上午的會議時間我們就繼續敬請到所有登記發言的委員詢問結束為止我們接下來請吳宗憲委員發言謝謝主席 我們麻煩次長請黃次長"},{"start":12233.052,"end":12248.628,"text":"市長我想先延續一下王宏威委員的問題因為上一次王玉川委員告發黃國昌偽造文書那當時我也是請法務部要嚴辦黃國昌委員那北檢也馬上就分案調查了"},{"start":12249.429,"end":12266.722,"text":"我想說法務部這個部分可能也是要督導一下地檢署這個分案的部分就一定要分案那另外我也是建議啦為了避免掉一些紛爭喔盡量這種案件不要用只分的方式盡量用輪分的方式處理好嗎"},{"start":12267.683,"end":12287.419,"text":"其實過往這些辦的這些案子啊那我一直沒有講一些我自己的對外的一些心裡的話因為他其實承辦的檢察官他以前在群組裡面常常做一些政治的發言以及他們的政治傾向我們也都很了解但是因為我尊重檢方的辦案"},{"start":12288.24,"end":12303.042,"text":"所以次長可以知道我從之前到現在我一直沒有去論述這件事情因為我都是尊重每一位檢察官他各自的政治傾向那我們也期待說檢察官在辦案的時候不要把自己的政治傾向放到"},{"start":12303.723,"end":12318.888,"text":"公務裡面我們自己以前是這樣一路過來的我們有自己的政治傾向但我們在辦案的時候就是秉公處理就像那個陳瑞仁大學長一樣他就說他是深綠的他的他政治傾向是深綠但是他在辦案的時候他的"},{"start":12320.388,"end":12348.265,"text":"這個政治傾向他只有在投票的那個帷幕的欄裡面他只要出了投票的時候他在公務上面的處理一定是秉公處理所以我不會去批評說那些檢察官他們平常在群組裡面是發言那種論述但是至少我們希望說辦案能夠持平的辦案那可以的話盡量不要用指分的方式用輪分的方式所以跟我們報告就是我們的立場基本的態度都是跟我們類似就是說"},{"start":12349.205,"end":12363.357,"text":"我們會尊重地檢署他的作業我們會尊重甲官辦案的權限沒有 我在公開呼籲啦我也知道檢方有自己獨立的辦案模式只是說有時候是這樣你越介入越多 越容易讓人家想"},{"start":12364.358,"end":12388.759,"text":"想很多嘛那最好的方式一切依法最好是電腦輪分啊電腦輪分大家比較沒有意見那第二個我想請教一下次長因為次長也是那個學有專精的法律人次長是非常那個專業於法律上那我想請教一個問題因為大家一直在講說這個二階二階連署的時候有非常多人跟一階是重複的"},{"start":12389.741,"end":12415.552,"text":"那依照規定這一二階他不能是同仁嘛那當然啦那個中選會他是說這個是依法剔除所以他們不告發那我在這邊請教我在這邊先說明一個啦如果因為民眾不了解我國的法治規定而去重複就一階以及二階他重複去連署那當然沒有偽造文書的問題啊那我想請教一下次長"},{"start":12416.412,"end":12441.648,"text":"這樣如果說今天有罷免團體 他為了拼最後送件的期限因為連署的人數還不到門檻 件數不到門檻他為了衝這個最後的期限可以送件然後去騙取中選會的10天的補件期間那因為這樣而去抄襲一階連署人的名單進去那請問一下這個有沒有構成違照文書"},{"start":12442.609,"end":12466.349,"text":"法律論述 法律論述因為這個都很多可能現在或未來都會進入地檢署來立案法律論述 報告次長你不要再對於假設性的事實問題我們不會去做這個我再請教 文憲的說明那我想是否有構成違照文書我們還是要尊重各地檢署跟檢管他們對這案的反對來啦 次長又回到個案了啦那次長"},{"start":12467.683,"end":12487.538,"text":"講一個我剛講很簡單嘛如果今天連署團體他簽了別人的名字進去連署這樣有沒有構成違照文書這個你們在講國民黨犯罪的時候講得很大聲啊還說是我想法務部從來沒有針對我們任何一個個案去對這件事情做出不管是"},{"start":12488.539,"end":12517.859,"text":"個案或者說假設性的事實來去做這些判斷我們不是在考試啦市長我本來蠻尊重您對法律的理解如果市長連這個是委託文書說講不出口好吧那正次就是正次的樣子嘛謝謝市長不好意思啦因為我們是法務部啦我們是做法務行政所以我剛一直說所以我沒有講個案我沒有說抄誰的名字嘛我只是請教市長這個是一個法律的通案嘛這是一個法律的通案"},{"start":12519.459,"end":12543.147,"text":"那如果今天不要講說跟連署有關啦那我問你嘛A沒有同意他的名字去做連署那B把A的名字抄去做連署這樣有沒有構成偽造文書委員您說的這個就是在考試嘛我一直講法律論述啊那我想這個委員也是學有專精啦刑法上當然這個構不構成你也很清楚嘛"},{"start":12545.391,"end":12563.231,"text":"那我跟次長報告次長竟然還是不願意回答我跟次長報告以我對於法律的理解那中選會主委他說的是廢話中選會主委說這個部分二接有重複連署的部分不告發但是那個部分僅限於民眾親自"},{"start":12564.853,"end":12589.626,"text":"去做第二次的連署民眾不清楚法律的規範而去做第二次的連署那這當然是沒有構成偽造文書但是如果有坊間現在一直在傳的是說罷免團體他們為了要拼送件的那個門檻件數那個日期快到了先讓他件數過關過關以後拿到補件期的10天他們再趕快再繼續拼連署"},{"start":12590.987,"end":12618.078,"text":"因為這樣而去抄了一階曾經連署人的名單進去的話這個構成偽造文書沒關係 次長你不敢回答我沒關係 我尊重委員的描述跟對法律問題的解釋沒關係啦 我跟你講啦反正現在很多很多側翼的律師他們有很特殊的法律見解他們有他們個別的見解那我這邊講目前我對法律的理解就是這樣而且我為我我一直以來我的個性就是這樣我為我說過的每一句話負責"},{"start":12620,"end":12646.409,"text":"那如果有這個狀況其實就應該要查緝啦那如果是一二階連署單上面肉眼就可以見到這兩個字跡完全不一樣其實啊中選會不應該一句話說我不予告發我認為這是一個不負責任中選會而且是一個選擇性施政的中選會公務機關應該要依法行政那如果是這種態度的話我實在是不認為這是一個"},{"start":12648.99,"end":12677.363,"text":"我對於李季勇主委的評價一路以來我沒有變過我對他的評價就是那樣子他真的是貴黨有非常多傑出的人才也有很多至少是還算公正的人才那今天會去請一個非常不公正的去擔任一個獨立機關的主委我也是覺得我們還是都希望國家好"},{"start":12678.185,"end":12678.328,"text":"好 那"},{"start":12679.349,"end":12707.822,"text":"後面我請教一下那個次長回到今天的議題啦因為剛剛我主要是聽您回答那個那個黃宏威委員我想請那個次長我們前兩個禮拜不是有去那個那個陳鎮中學嗎對不對 次長也有去嘛那陳鎮中學當時有說他有很多問題就是譬如說空間以及人力等等那請問一下部長 次長您知不知道到底問題出在哪"},{"start":12709.096,"end":12737.878,"text":"上次去完到現在 部裡面有做任何的改革嗎是請次長回答一下好 那個城鎮中學他主要提出是他的空間改善因為他們的這個空間很老舊而且過去的過程跟現在不一樣那他們現在已經啟動了部分其實在當天我們去看的時候都有圍起來所以他現在已經有做一部分的改善那後續我們他有跟矯正署報相關的後續的計畫那矯正署也會都會做那另外有提出來的部分就是Lady有老師"},{"start":12738.999,"end":12766.034,"text":"他有提出來一些就是關於這個輔導的空間因為很多的中文的這些學生他們可能需要個別的心理的輔導尤其是在女生的部分不是女生啦有一些部分會有隱私隔離的問題等等的這個部分我也請他們提出具體的方案我們會請教練署就經費部分大家予以協助這樣"},{"start":12768.255,"end":12787.712,"text":"這樣也沒有講得很具體啦 但是我想說齁 因為時間也蠻短的那當天大家也吃了那個現場小朋友做的麵包我們不能白吃嘛 白吃他的麵包所以還是得回過頭來幫他們去處理他們點出來的問題 包括一些空間啦還有一些那個收容學生暴增那我請教一下次長一個問題喔"},{"start":12789.413,"end":12815.346,"text":"那個陳振中學他2024年初到現在他突然暴增了112個收容的學生那等於是多了七成耶但是我國的這個青少年的犯罪率並沒有增加那麼高啊市長有沒有發現或有沒有去研究到底是什麼原因會導致收容的學生突然增加但是他跟我們的那個青少年的犯罪率兩個搭不上啊"},{"start":12816.407,"end":12843.505,"text":"這個城鎮中學是辦這個感化教育所以他的學生的來源是少年法庭的法官裁定那他就會進來這樣子所以這個可能跟這個法院的裁法官的這個裁定的這個方向所調整有關係也有可能是因為之前有一些比較重大的少年的這個事件那可能使得法官認為說要增加利用這個感化教育這個工具來協助輔導這些那這是次長"},{"start":12844.065,"end":12857.821,"text":"那個研判可能性我推測的那這個可不可以一個月內給我們回覆一下報告請他們研究一下為什麼人數暴增但是他跟我們的青少年犯罪率其實是搭不上的原因出在哪裡還有一個可能是跟詐欺犯這個陳少貢犯"},{"start":12859.603,"end":12875.608,"text":"雖然真正在很多有關係但這個部分我請他們去做具體的聯繫這個問題不是2024年出到現在你說的這個問題是已經好多年了不是只有去年到現在還突然暴增的新的犯罪類型所以要麻煩一下那我想說這個報告裡面"},{"start":12877.268,"end":12894.065,"text":"幫我們稍微也要加入就是這個正直跟戴克老師的比例還有那個失之流動也就是不穩定的原因也幫我們研究一下那然後還有就是因為我們知道小朋友在那邊其實我們是希望培養他一個將來回歸社會的技能嘛"},{"start":12894.725,"end":12924.085,"text":"所以這個部份是不是你們有跟教育部衛福部或是勞動部這些合作單位是怎麼個合作也麻煩在資料裡面給我們一下這個跟我們報告好你這一天那天的簡報事實上他的數字跟他們口頭講的是有點出入所以我請那個承認中學再把數字那也麻煩市長因為市長我們要求大家行政機關做出我的辦公室的習慣每一份報告來我們都會都會深入去研究我們不是說隨便談一個你報告給我們我們就不管了我們每一個報告都"},{"start":12924.885,"end":12935.033,"text":"都會深入去研究所以請你們一定要給我們一個比較實在的報告另外還有一個就是說當天城鎮中學的校長簡報還有提到110年到112年的轉學學生的比例從70到61到48等於是一直在遞減"},{"start":12941.198,"end":12968.303,"text":"所以有過半的學生離開之後並沒有轉學員上學校去啊那我想 次長你知道應該知道轉學員的重要性嗎這個有一些問題是說因為他們其實很多出校的時候他可能已經成年了或是職業之類的其他問題但是因為我剛剛跟委員報告說這個數據其實當天我就有看到跟他口頭講的不太一致所以我會請城鎮中學把正確的數字跟剛剛委員隨詢的原因"},{"start":12968.823,"end":12993.024,"text":"再用書面來回覆 您說的部分人是成年沒有錯但是有一些也是未成年那是不是說我們可以把他轉去一些即職學校等等的讓他能夠更好的回歸社會有人不愛念書我們可以理解但是我們國家有非常多的即職學校是不是能夠好好的去盯一下他們有沒有轉弦到想念書的我們轉弦回學校不想念書的轉弦去即職學校"},{"start":12993.524,"end":13019.978,"text":"就對國家才有幫助我想當然我們都是去即時學校啦所以說如果他有意願的話我們一定都會來去那你們一定要盯喔因為我跟你講那個兒少學級轉型還有復學辦法第七條 五 七 八這三條其實有提到就是說法務部他在離開矯正學校前的一個月內他本來就要召開這個輔導會議然後他到學校去之後的一個月內他也必須還要參與去開一個輔導會議所以你們一定會有這個數據"},{"start":13023.28,"end":13044.52,"text":"這個部分要麻煩你們給我 最後不好意思再給我一點點時間就是那個比例 人數比例的問題啦就是借戶人數比例的問題 因為上個禮拜那個矯正署有來一邊有談一些那個借戶人數的那個比例然後我再回去找了一些資料我發現我們台灣的那個借戶比其實比鄰近的國家有的超到兩倍以上"},{"start":13045.461,"end":13067.534,"text":"那當然我知道現在找這個介乎人力本來也不容易啦公務員現在越來越沒有人想要當更何況說這個要住在裡面然後有時候在裡面手機也因為那個屏蔽所以手機也收不到跟家人會斷連續有一些人不喜歡這樣的工作或家人不允許這樣的工作這我們可以理解但是這會是一個大問題然後我又看到高雄女監"},{"start":13068.635,"end":13088.563,"text":"他晚上管理人18人然後除了輪班跟睡覺之外一個人要管300多個收容人所以裡面有一點點小事情那就會出大事了更何況去年6月的時候那不是曾經發生過就是因為女監不能好好洗澡所以他們當時有集體抗議"},{"start":13089.683,"end":13096.651,"text":"還有噴辣椒水才把那個壓制下來所以這會是一個問題我們以前當警察官的時候會去視察監獄我們發現一個狀況現在監獄裡面受刑的年紀有很多年紀都很大了"},{"start":13105.541,"end":13122.586,"text":"那因為大家的平均餘命越來越長嘛所以監所裡面會有一些慢性病 精神疾病等等的這些問題都是現在監所要面臨的那如果我們的接戶比喲越來越少那這個是將來這個監所可能發生問題的狀況會變多我不知道副理有沒有發現這個狀況"},{"start":13127.962,"end":13152.666,"text":"跟委員報告 委員講的這個確實是一個重要的問題因為有一些精神疾病的大概就是他會跟人家產生衝突 一直送違規射所以當然我們有培德院區說那個精神分裂症但是他要比較嚴重的才收那因此我們 我上任之後我就要擴通他的量能"},{"start":13153.186,"end":13178.799,"text":"因此我們藉由行後性侵的這個大渡山莊已經移出去了所以我們把這個空間改為收容精神疾病患者的讓他的床位更多一點現在我們也增加不少的床位將來會紓解一些反社會人格也好或是尤其是精神疾病比較嚴重的受刑人常常跟人家打架的這一些我們會收治"},{"start":13180.6,"end":13202.522,"text":"其實我在這段時間我發現署長非常的認真而且非常在預政改革上用很多心但是因為署長下個月要農退那我也很擔心說那這個改革或者是這個對收工人的管理以及對他們將來教育有沒有效果回歸社會會不會對國家有正向的影響我也會擔心有沒有辦法先接上去啊"},{"start":13202.862,"end":13221.215,"text":"各位報告我想我們部長他會慎重選擇比如說在中央機關有歷練而且是在現職的八大的所謂的典獄長他有那個經驗的我們這個心火相傳可以繼續傳下去應該是沒有問題那這樣我想"},{"start":13222.176,"end":13243.084,"text":"那個我希望這個部裡面就是能夠也再給我一份數據的報告就是剛剛提到的那個轉嫌這個減少的那個報告一定要給我給我一份還有如果有問題的話怎麼改善還有這個配套措施怎麼做以及這個借戶比再麻煩給我們一份好那最後那個謝謝署長署長為國家奉獻一輩子"},{"start":13245.345,"end":13260.199,"text":"非常敬佩署長 署長退休愉快謝謝吳宗憲委員 這個改革都還沒有起步還有很長的一段路 其實我都一直這樣覺得"},{"start":13261.52,"end":13266.184,"text":"每一個人每一個人都成長了一個背景啦我小時候我在鄉下的時候啊我以前有管訓隊啊我都看人家在打酒桶欸 斷了這個沒有了沒有這種現象它其實就是一種進步啦那我們現在也揚起特別權力關係啦那但問題是說 畢竟受刑人還是不一樣 還是不一樣"},{"start":13284.798,"end":13311.686,"text":"再一次強調為什麼我們司法法制委員會一直要排這些考察其實我們還是會繼續排下去會排下去的原因其實除了整個預政改革以外受刑人他犯了罪接受國家的一種硬報這本來就有硬報可是我們又認為說他要回歸社會所以又有教育又有矯正"},{"start":13313.438,"end":13325.538,"text":"這個是考驗著整個矯正署啦那真的是確實是酒不發心啦也不是只有偏重管理啦像我個人我最常收到的就是都要尿布啦"},{"start":13326.991,"end":13350.107,"text":"要尿布啊 個案都是要尿布啊我一看就七層八層全部都是受刑人啊那受刑是犯罪犯罪的人他其實他有他的背景都有他太陽會比較不一樣啊所以就是到最後我們為什麼今天很多委員連國民黨委員也會出來已經不再像前面那麼肅殺啦就是說你這個犯罪的人該怎麼樣怎麼樣全部都是嚴懲都是什麼"},{"start":13351.548,"end":13378.526,"text":"這已經到了預證的部分判決確定了所以說他到底穿著球衣的這個國民他的基本人權要給他到什麼地方那剛好矯正署也認為說這個屬於基本的他的基本生活這個部分是國家去編預算可是這個基本生活到底到哪裡到哪裡這個一併啊可以大家來做一個思考那今天進入尾聲我們接下來請蔡宜瑜委員"},{"start":13379.807,"end":13398.043,"text":"蔡議員不在 蔡議員不在那我們所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料會議書面答覆者 請相關機關盡速送交各委員及本會"},{"start":13399.284,"end":13407.367,"text":"那委員楊瓊英 蘇清泉所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}