{"error":false,"id":["167797"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":167797,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167797","日期":"2026-03-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-5-35,20-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防、財政委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[35,20],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會","財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防、財政委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-03-23T12:22:54+08:00","結束時間":"2026-03-23T12:33:45+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fac85a1267872a8a75968d99f39e25ec3e8ac6646e11c8ec29cbc3a6108f1e63334a1e86bb4a3c825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"12:22:54 - 12:33:45","會議時間":"2026-03-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」案。二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」案。三、本院國民黨黨團擬具「強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案」案。(3月23日、3月25\n日及26日三天一次會)）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.87471875,"end":1.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.19096875,"end":2.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.2372187500000003,"end":3.6759687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.67909375,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.168468750000002,"end":11.708468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.872843750000001,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.20096875,"end":43.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.77096875,"end":71.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.67659375,"end":55.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.04096875,"end":76.00221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.05721875,"end":88.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.68034375,"end":87.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.06784375000001,"end":97.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.63159375000001,"end":147.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.44659375,"end":150.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.69096875,"end":188.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.89471875,"end":171.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.52159375000002,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.96846875,"end":184.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.72721875000002,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.71846875,"end":191.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.35096875000002,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.88159375,"end":201.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.40846875000003,"end":206.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.26909375000002,"end":207.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.88034375,"end":209.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.44971875000002,"end":217.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.78596875000002,"end":220.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.87034375000002,"end":219.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.51971875,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.56596875000002,"end":230.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.58284375000002,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.03846875000002,"end":223.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.74659375000002,"end":228.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.50971875000002,"end":232.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.05784375000002,"end":233.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.01971875,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.35471875000002,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.13846875,"end":279.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.79346875000005,"end":279.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.26159375000003,"end":295.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.20221875000004,"end":281.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.90471875000003,"end":299.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.23784375,"end":298.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.66346875,"end":317.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.00659375000004,"end":320.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.16221875,"end":330.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.23221875,"end":332.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.24909375000004,"end":332.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.62034375,"end":332.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.65409375,"end":332.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.73846875000004,"end":332.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.13909375000003,"end":336.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.21034375000005,"end":346.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.04846875000004,"end":371.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.17534375,"end":382.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.03034375000004,"end":388.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.74659375000005,"end":393.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.72909375,"end":407.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.15721875,"end":424.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.46659375,"end":451.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.50909375000003,"end":461.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.60846875000004,"end":475.02846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.38721875000005,"end":475.06221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.129718750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那我們看到的是在現在的這個全軍的邊線比的變化到去年都會從2010年開始 2021年開始之後就一直在這個80%以下他所影響的是會是暫時根本沒有發揮他編制擁有的全部戰力還有裝備沒有人"},{"start":35.879,"end":62.668,"text":"操作的這個問題那請問現在有沒有什麼改變的方式讓我們的一般公民能夠越多的想要去從軍呢跟委員報告事實上我們去年的邊線比已經有提升那我們的遊營率也提升我們志願役的人數也增加超過應該是四千多個了所以我們整個逐年我們希望能夠改善我們的這個"},{"start":64.469,"end":84.383,"text":"改善我們的邊縣比留營率跟我們增加我們的這個志願役人數時間有限了 顧部長我是不是要你的那個方法事後再給我好不好我們去年有到增加這個戰鬥加急的這個部分這個我想是有幫助的我們會後再跟委員做個說明"},{"start":88.106,"end":91.333,"text":"好 謝謝我們繼續再往下看今天最重要當然是因為國防的軍購的這個部分那我們看到的是一個問題現在呢"},{"start":98.877,"end":119.963,"text":"國防這部分呢我們想問的是有沒有依照113年的5年的兵力整建計畫去進行那我們現在看到的是您在行政院版在這第四條的五六七項當中並沒有特別的去把詳細的內容說清楚當然我們更想問的是說你們應該是在這個因為在去年的11月27號有提出來就是院版的有提出來那提出來之後呢"},{"start":123.644,"end":147.288,"text":"當然美國也收到了啦 但是這邊我們並沒有收到的是說你們應該是有跟美國國防部 美國方面提出來的LOR的request嘛 對不對那這邊台灣並沒有收到 後來我們再到兩個禮拜之前的時候呢 收到的是說就要想到這個LOA啦 那這個地方呢是不是應該要在去年的時候就應該提出來的 LOR的部分跟我們的立法院來做一下報告 這些部分"},{"start":149.077,"end":172.719,"text":"跟委員報我想第一個就是說我們跟美方之間這個有關提出需求這個部分如果美方表達有初步的供受意願我們會編列預算那超過一定金額要報行政院同意之後我們再編入我們的相關的這個預算文件裡面那麼在美國"},{"start":174.261,"end":187.155,"text":"軍購的這個部分在他還沒有知會國會之前這屬於機密所以我們之前也有就這個特別條例我們有排一個機密的一個專報有將全盤的內容跟"},{"start":188.937,"end":217.093,"text":"所有來參與的委員做一個完整的一個說明所以等到花架書來然後說才要這個有一個特別條例然後再通過特別預算這個是絕對絕對是來不及而且也治安難行那麼我跟委員報告就是條例跟預算是不一樣的條例只是規定一個大致的能力架構那我們沒有在規避大院的審查預算案"},{"start":217.873,"end":231.418,"text":"特別條例還是要送到委員會來啊所以沒有什麼空白授權也沒有採購內容不透明這個問題為什麼一定要一再把條例跟預算一直混淆呢沒有 我現在跟你講你剛才因為"},{"start":234.199,"end":255.829,"text":"沈博漾委員有提到我們民眾黨現在八席立委當中目前因為有六位是新的其實都沒有經過到參加過這樣的一個秘密會議的部分那您在3月11號也承諾說這個部分呢應該對民眾黨的委員們要做一下這個報告關於說當初在秘密會議所開的內容是不是您現在能夠承諾一下在可能在禮拜三禮拜四之前找個機會來進行"},{"start":257.602,"end":279.594,"text":"我想第一個,這個貴黨的委員的更衣,這個不是我能夠去控制嘛,這是貴黨做了更動那這個第一個,第二個,相關機密的部分呢,為了要確保這個機密所以要請這個召委來同意排一個機密的專報,我們才能夠做機密的一個說明"},{"start":281.235,"end":297.341,"text":"那不然的話這些精密的專報萬一流出去那到時候沒有辦法有人來來負責所以如果委員覺得因為大家都這個會計才新道論那想要再有一次了解了部長因為我時間有限我繼續再問你因為照"},{"start":299.902,"end":317.054,"text":"國防部的規劃的時候呢這樣子的預算呢這樣的一個建軍的兵力的總建是一個長期的嘛至少是五年的部分那未來的地方因為還有第二波那第二波的時候像這個LOR的部分是不是也可能有機會跟台灣"},{"start":318.115,"end":330.168,"text":"才跟我們的立法院來去做用機密報告的機密會議的方式來去呈現呢還是其實這個LOR都是沒辦法的其實我們最後都只能被LOA來去處理就是來去審議就對了幫委員那份文件叫LOR"},{"start":337.338,"end":356.021,"text":"那個for LOA那是我們的發價書需求信函那在美方智慧國會結束之後給我們的是LOA然後LOR它分好幾種LOR第一種我們會提出來是LOR for P&A是去尋價用的就是對方的供售意願跟尋價的"},{"start":357.222,"end":370.991,"text":"那我們也有可能美方在作業程序上面如果認為比較趕他會要求我們提出一個LOR for ROM就是那叫出估報價需求信函那這整個作業程序事實上"},{"start":372.496,"end":387.303,"text":"發架書本身是整個軍購作業裡面的產物而不是規劃文件他已經到了對方出具白紙黑字給我們說所以立法院最後就只有LOA的部分如果能夠比較時間比較充足的時候就來審議是不是"},{"start":388.806,"end":396.911,"text":"所以我們還是建議大院應該按照計畫預算制度理念好 如果講到這裡我就往下看 這就是想要講的因為在113年的時候呢 國防部事實上在8月30號已經提了五年兵力整建跟施政計畫報告那事實上紛紛在立法院的預算 國防的施政報告 國防部的報告書114年都有 立法院的國防部跟預算評估報告等等"},{"start":412.14,"end":424.313,"text":"這些部分其實在三建在這種幾個計畫當中呢都已經呈現出來了所有的建案都需納入聯合戰力規劃要項跟五年兵力整建計畫這些部分呢也看到到是說呢"},{"start":425.509,"end":451.457,"text":"以照現在的從你們現在目前的這個已經提供給立法院的部分來呈現出來的規模會持續擴大啦大概年度的投資會增加是國造跟軍購會有這個一千兩百億的這樣子的規模這部分看到內容上面這樣寫所以呢其實是有的齁那我隨時還要問的是說現在的目前所提出來的這個條例的部分齁是不是有預算或是未來整建計畫的東西是不是真的有要年成立計畫進行"},{"start":451.897,"end":477.896,"text":"包委員我們所有的建案都必須要納入五年兵力整建計畫之後才可以執行建案建案文件完成之後才可以編列預算這是我們的規定好 但是你知道嗎這個部分一直到三月七號才呈現在國防部裡面的新聞稿才呈現之前的時候其實並沒有那麼多的稱號說我們才會覺得說根本就不是讓大家可以很清楚的明白的這樣子一個情形我們的五年兵力整建計畫的詳細具體的內容是屬於機密"},{"start":483.394,"end":501.944,"text":"可是我們在看到的是剛剛我說那三項的兵力整建計畫他散佈在這些部分其實已經看到這樣的規模了那這部分我要呈現出來是說其實現在如果您已經有出現到是有這樣的五年兵力計畫等等就是一個長期的規劃預算那應該長期的規劃有節奏去施政那為什麼不去編入到經常性的預算來做正常的審查程序"},{"start":509.748,"end":515.07,"text":"這些部分才會是真正讓立法院能好好去監督啊而且呢如果說像現在講的話呢1200億或是..."},{"start":528.291,"end":544.022,"text":"根本更多的是他會甚至你每年的話就是一兆多的情況你五年的話那就五兆五那八年後的八兆多比你現在的一兆1.25億還要多喔這邊部分只要跟國防部去交換一件事請你如果從這地方經常性的預算去編列的話其實是還會讓台灣有更多的預算去進行的做國防預算去進行的那部長你的看法呢"},{"start":550.999,"end":575.967,"text":"我們有數百個時序案必須要支付所以我們115年的新增案的額度只有80億元剩持那如果這裡照2500億全部要用公務預算來支付照目前我們的規劃加上案項還有其他我們規劃當中的執行勢力造成出國案項根本沒有辦法支付或是造成我們國家"},{"start":577.301,"end":591.522,"text":"沒有 你年度上說你今年不是變到9500億了嗎你的1.25兆你除以8年的話不是也是增加大概1.5億而已嗎你這樣加起來其實就是平均每年大概就是這樣子啊這沒有辦法進行的嗎"},{"start":595.14,"end":621.591,"text":"委員好 我是主席局局長剛剛委員所提到的9495億其實它包含了好幾個面向年度公務預算我們國防部編列了5614億其他還包含特別預算還有海巡署跟輔導會編列有關國防預算的相關的額度所以加起來是9495億但是如果說把這個1.25兆編到年度預算的話1.25兆如果你是照五年的建軍計畫去進行的話其實年度平均的話就是會達到這樣的部分啦"},{"start":622.931,"end":649.977,"text":"民眾黨的意思就是在說 你應該就是照變成經常性的 常備性的預算去進行而不要用特別預算的方式去進行那這樣的話 其實每年扒起來 尤其你們現在一下框的是八年啊一點後照謝謝劉委員 要不要請他們書面回覆你書面回覆可以嗎就對我這邊的一個疑問我們會再跟委員做個說明好不好好 這邊的確需要多一些說明的好 謝謝 謝謝趙委"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}