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12:44:04","會議時間":"2026-03-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防、財政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「強化防衛韌性及不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」案。二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫採購特別條例草案」案。三、本院國民黨黨團擬具「強化國防及對美軍事採購特別條例草案」案。(3月23日、3月25\n日及26日三天一次會)）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.85784375,"end":2.0559687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.57909375,"end":3.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.37221875,"end":3.3890937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.484718750000003,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.501593750000001,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.379093750000003,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.800968750000003,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.083468750000002,"end":62.805968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.85659375,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.88784375,"end":134.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.81159375000001,"end":136.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.73534375,"end":138.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.38909375,"end":138.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.43971875,"end":138.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.45659375,"end":138.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.82784375,"end":138.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.91221875000002,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.86534375000002,"end":147.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.58221875,"end":144.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.95721875,"end":163.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.51596875,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.21971875,"end":177.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.97784375,"end":221.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.70096875000002,"end":227.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.69159375,"end":227.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.80971875,"end":227.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.84346875000003,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.02909375000002,"end":228.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.18096875,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.28221875000003,"end":235.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.69034375,"end":240.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.27596875,"end":241.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.82846875,"end":244.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.56659375,"end":247.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.79409375,"end":246.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.81096875000003,"end":247.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.07659375000003,"end":249.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.07221875000002,"end":249.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.12284375000002,"end":249.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.15659375,"end":249.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.61221875,"end":254.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.03346875000003,"end":254.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.23159375000003,"end":255.65346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.32846875,"end":270.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.58784375,"end":270.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.89159375,"end":270.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.97596875,"end":283.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.83471875000004,"end":308.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.25284375,"end":314.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.22659375,"end":323.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.62596875,"end":366.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.51784375,"end":369.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.88034375,"end":378.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.57096875,"end":393.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.52659375,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.51846875,"end":418.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.98659375000005,"end":426.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.35659375,"end":428.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.90909375,"end":429.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.58409375,"end":434.56221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.81534375,"end":441.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.76784375000005,"end":479.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.21346875,"end":484.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.54596875000004,"end":492.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.64596875,"end":493.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.78096875000006,"end":498.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.31596875,"end":500.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.48471875,"end":498.73784375},{"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顧部長有請請顧部長"},{"start":12.706,"end":32.28,"text":"是 林委員部長辛苦了這個話說從頭本期在去年的12月跟今年的2月分別自費都做了民意調查就針對這個軍購國防相關的議題要了解台灣民意的真實走向那我簡單跟部長交換一下意見這個民意調查的結果基本上顯示大概都有六成左右的民眾是支持國防預算增加的"},{"start":32.64,"end":53.583,"text":"所以我想這大家在國防預算的合理增加上面其實是有比較高的一個社會的共識但我們今年二月多做的題目就是你支不支持這個院版1.25兆的這樣一個特別預算這樣一個版本那就發現這個不同意的人其實是略大於同意呈現非常非常分歧的一個狀況這個顯見台灣社會對於這1.25兆突然之間跑出來的版本其實還是有蠻有疑慮的"},{"start":54.344,"end":82.289,"text":"那我想我們身為在野黨的立法委員國民黨也好民眾黨也好大概都基於民意反應的一個結果我們要在支持國防預算的合理增加跟但不要一次過頭或者是造成社會質疑的地方其實在兩者之間要取得平衡這就是為什麼到最後在野黨也提了非常多的這個自己版本的國防特別預算條例這個我們應該好好討論這個如何來編列這筆錢這個條例的內容如何來做取捨這我希望在這個禮拜的討論會中大家可以理性的來做討論那我今天要準備這個"},{"start":83.709,"end":103.974,"text":"就叫這個部長的題目大概是這樣子的因為我們對美軍購的部分其實看起來是分階段來做進行也就是說這第一階段比較明確的包含這個M109A7自走炮海馬4這個反甲型無人機飛彈系統等等這個基本上已經拿到了這個發價書那還有所謂的第二波也就是所謂的這個"},{"start":105.954,"end":117.782,"text":"反制無人機系統還有各類型的反彈道和反空的飛彈還有低空防空系統和反甲飛彈的儲量補充這幾項看起來是還沒有拿到相關的發價書這些後面的籌購的這些項目看起來還是在美國的戰爭部的內部討論的階段甚至都還沒有送到美國的國會我想請教一下我們國防部針對你們長期以來應該是一直在保持對話的一個狀態對於這幾筆的金額"},{"start":133.732,"end":154.589,"text":"或者是發架書大概什麼時候會通過美國的國會什麼時候會拿到有沒有時間表官委員先跟委員報告我們我們所謂軍購我們是依照我們的需求提出是沒有所謂分階段的那其實我們在這次特別預算裡面所有的發架書需求信函都是在去年同一個時間提出去的"},{"start":155.43,"end":174.459,"text":"那另外我們針對目前還沒有智慧國會的項目一直在跟美方竊取聯繫那我們所掌握到的他們已經完成了跨部會的聯審那目前也會按照審查的期程在完成相關程序之後進行智慧國會"},{"start":175.459,"end":200.667,"text":"這是目前我們掌握到的訊息這當然是程序大家應該都還蠻清楚的但大家要知道的就是那個時間點的問題因為按照台灣關係法以及等等相關美國國內的法規的規範基本上美國國會在審議的過程中大概不太容易出現異議這過去的案例顯示即便沒有急著排審他也會再送過一個月之後自動取得通過這樣一個資格但是現在的狀況就是還沒有送到國會所以我的問題其實是這樣的"},{"start":202.668,"end":221.438,"text":"有沒有具體的時間表嘛就你當然積極溝通這本席完全理解也非常支持但是你積極溝通的結果然後他還沒有完成聯繫審議那有沒有明確的時間比如說大概幾月幾月的時候他會送進國會幾月的時候我們會正式取得這個發價數因為這其實跟大家版本的整合跟金額調整都是密切相關的嘛所以是不是能在這邊有明確的回答"},{"start":221.918,"end":240.277,"text":"我想這個就要看美方那邊,我們這邊沒有辦法幫美方做回應OK,那我再問一個問題,過去我們的國防特別預算,走特別條例特別預算的,有在沒有拿到美國智慧國會程序還沒完成之前,我們就先編列條例跟預算的前例嗎?"},{"start":244.662,"end":254.066,"text":"那個是特別條例嗎?應該不是吧?那個是正常工預算吧?那是特別條例好,但是顯然在後續的過程中也出現了一些問題跟毛病,對不對?"},{"start":256.4,"end":281.087,"text":"報告委員其實他那個案子還是按照我們目前正常的計畫預算制度跟軍購申請申請審核程序走並沒有什麼不一樣也沒有說先拿到發價書再去做處理OK這點本席願意尊重但我要把問題把它問完就我之所以會花很多時間去討論這個第二波的這個發價書的問題原因是這樣的就過去這個恐怕也不符合過去的往例喔路透社在3月13號的報導裡面直接稱這個川普"},{"start":283.908,"end":307.586,"text":"總統說訪中後才會批准所謂的140億美元其實就是我們大家講的這個階段的發價數碼才會批准這所謂的對台軍售這個尚在審核中的軍購項目啊這個通過了時間跟我剛剛問你時間點你說你在努力溝通不見得能夠明確回答這本席了解但既然有外媒做了披露就是說這可能會跟這接下來川喜會掛鉤啊國防部目前評估的狀況怎麼樣會不會跟川喜會掛鉤"},{"start":308.546,"end":323.332,"text":"我想有關這些外媒的評論,我們都予以尊重,我們沒有任何的相關的進一步的評論那麼我們會跟美方持續的溝通,然後希望能夠盡早的來取得相關的完成智慧國會的程序"},{"start":323.692,"end":341.068,"text":"也就是說你們立場不變好 是因為這樣 我之所以會再問這個問題是這樣就我們陸委會的副主委啊 就是沈友中在3月17號的時候接受媒體訪問的時候有講就是說這個政府在研判川習會的時候大概一定會談到跟對台軍購有關的也就是說我們政府內部的評估啊很有可能這個題目會在川習會上變成一個談判的這樣議題"},{"start":343.83,"end":353.937,"text":"這個軍售到底順不順利很有可能取決於啊川普的個人意志跟態度這我們都推過這個美國的決策模型這當然是很有可能的那這樣子你們當初在內部討論的時候說研判這個題目可能會被拿到川習會的時候這個理論上應該是一個我們內部政府在做沙盤推演的內部會議啊這場內部會議我們的陸委會推估會被拿到談判期間這場內部的溝通會議的時候國防部有沒有參加"},{"start":367.774,"end":377.266,"text":"我想我們就國安部的立場我們跟美方的相關的包括戰爭部跟國務院我們都是在進行這個有關"},{"start":378.669,"end":404.759,"text":"整個建案程序的一個溝通那麼美光我們會提出來但是美方有一個初步的供受意願那我們根據這個美方的初步供受意願來編列相關的預算那這一次納入特別預算的項目也是經過跟美方溝通的美方當然對我們講他有意願然後他往前推進這都沒有錯的這本席無一質疑台美關係但問題是客觀擺在前面的問題就是這個川崎會形成了一個很大的變數因為除了四月然後他現在因為中東的戰爭往後推遲"},{"start":407.24,"end":433.597,"text":"這陸委會在那場的訪問裡面他在透露啊還有可能有三場川習會對不對有APEC G20的啊甚至有可能川普的回訪等等這些會不會都會造成軍購啊實際上的變數我們就跟我們相關的對口單位來看的話他們的工作的意願並沒有改變工作意願並沒有改變沒有 沒有改變那照理來講應該就會很順利的理論上應該在四月的時候就可以通過國會的審議是這樣嗎"},{"start":435.081,"end":450.808,"text":"我們當然很期待這個美胖能夠儘速完成他們內部的審查程序然後進行智慧國會部長今天的回答都非常的小心而且視頻把本集完全尊重也願意理解但是有質詢的過程就是把一些疑慮攤在陽光下讓大家去理解今天"},{"start":451.388,"end":468.779,"text":"在黨的版本的數字非常的保守然後一度上在很多的政治攻防這我們就暗下不表但是我必須要講的事情是很多時候它有在這個過程中如果出現很大的變數的時候你先把預算框在那個地方或先把條例框在那個地方到最後萬一真的這些變數成真了然後造成軍購狀況的受挫"},{"start":469.94,"end":497.805,"text":"他很有可能會變相的造成財政的部分的排擠這是在野黨我覺得要表達出來一些立場因此我們也再次在這個地方強調在野黨雖然一開始的速度比較低但是我們也都有對外有做明確的政治承諾跟宣示嘛如果這個美方的發價順序這個發價程序可以順利來做執行當然在項目上跟金額上當然有可以討論的空間但前提是要能順利執行這就是為什麼本席今天在這邊問一定是問川習慧會不會造成變數有沒有具體時間表的原因嘛"},{"start":501.328,"end":516.584,"text":"在同一個條例裡面提出一個預算的上限不代表我們就能夠通過相關的預算因為具體的預算還要經過大院的審議所以條例跟預算是分開來看的不是說條例通過了我們好像預算就不要送到立法院來審議"},{"start":518.085,"end":540.84,"text":"實務上來講大家基本上在條例的過程中因為討論的是最大的框架跟大的範圍所以我想通過之後實務上來講這些特別預算在預算審查的時候大家都是老江湖的也知道並比較不會有這麼多的一些爭議所以當然框線的部分很有可能它到未來它很有可能就是被吃用的這一點大家當然各有各的說法這本集願意理解預算的具體項目還是要送立法院來審議當然當然當然"},{"start":542.361,"end":559.726,"text":"但實務上來講大家也會傾向比較相信的這樣一個態度因為現在貴黨提出來是說發價書拿到再有一個特別條例不是說在這個特別條例裡面框一個金額然後等到拿到所以如果真的你可以依實現裡面取得去發價書我們不會去為難對美軍購的預算嘛其實態度上就是這樣嘛所以我覺得今天這樣子嘛"},{"start":560.606,"end":561.587,"text":"我還是說明就是說條例是"},{"start":582.653,"end":610.035,"text":"一塊 那麼預算要通過不通過還是要送到大院來進行審議啦當然那這個的時候跟貴黨提出來說我們另外再訂一個特別條例這兩個概念應該不同我覺得您認為概念是不同我認為是殊途同歸啊因為只要有我們的程序只要可以把它完備確保這些錢一定買得到花得出去而且有明確的期程我想這台檔是不會多做為難的啦好不好好 今天因為時間有限啦後面還有很多委員要質詢感謝部長今天的回答喔 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}