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我們有請院長再請卓院長備選"},{"start":20.905,"end":42.075,"text":"張委員好委員長好我今天要先討論一個非常民生的問題就是前陣子我看到一個新聞就是說他講到說我們台灣的經濟非常的發達我們一流的晶片可是我們的公測卻是三流那我也看到說我們今天的新聞是台股的市值已經到全球第七但是我們的經濟非常的富裕可是我們的許多的公共空間其實還有蠻多可以討論的"},{"start":43.055,"end":61.914,"text":"空間因為我把這些相關的新聞發到我的臉書上面意外引起非常熱烈的討論所以我想要跟院長來討論其實今天我們的這個廁所其實跟學生的健康校園安全甚至防災都有關係我想大家可能會覺得跟防災有什麼關係待會我們繼續講下去首先就是說"},{"start":63.015,"end":87.467,"text":"我們現在可以看到亞洲在公共廁所他們的一個規劃是什麼樣子我們可以看到說不管是日本韓國新加坡或是我們以前所說的亞洲四小龍大家其實都在往做事的方向前進可是我們對於這些相關的資料好像都沒有那麼明確的了解因為我們的方向到底是什麼我們現在的狀況到底是如何是什麼樣的狀況不過我也要先感謝就是院長支持我們在114年到"},{"start":88.647,"end":109.094,"text":"六年都有編列41.89億元來持續推動我們學校的老舊廁所的一個整建那這是我在想說那我們現在在改善這個老舊設備的時候是不是可以一併的來去思考我們的一個方向到底是什麼為什麼大家會想要往這些方向去前進最主要就是說高齡化是一個非常明確的問題"},{"start":110.394,"end":127.404,"text":"因為很多的長者或行動不便者可以用坐視都會更加的友善對於孕婦來說也是非常的安全甚至日本也做了一些研究對於國際的旅客也是一個更友善的方向但是我們可以看到我們現在相關的這些設備還停留在99年"},{"start":129.205,"end":147.943,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我希望說我們可不可以再來精進再來跟上我們的這個經濟發展那接下來呢我想要再特別講到關於學校的部分因為我去今年二月底的時候我去日本參訪那我們也拜訪了許多的民間團體日本的民間團體那他們提到一個我蠻驚訝就是說內閣官房設定2030年"},{"start":151.506,"end":165.333,"text":"避難所的廁所要全部達到百分之百都是做事的廁所為什麼因為他們在2016年的時候熊本大地震結束之後他們去避難所詢問了這些災民問他們說什麼事情對他們來說最苦惱簡單來說就是廁所因為在避難的狀態之下"},{"start":170.655,"end":196.243,"text":"他們其實是很需要可以保持清潔那坐室廁所就可以保持一個非常好的一個清潔的狀態而且呢很多的長者很多的孕婦都會進入學校所以如果今天學校是蹲室的話對他們來說就是無法使用那也因為官方的一個方向是這樣所以在文部省呢他們就有去設定每一年要逐步的去改善他們的這個廁所那目前呢在2023年最新的資料已經是達到69.3%"},{"start":200.256,"end":220.693,"text":"所以我在想說因為台灣也是一個天災很多的國家日本把學校作為一個避難的空間那我們也是那廁所是不是也可以提升我們所謂的防災韌性呢所以我想請教一下我們是不是就是說教育部這邊是不是可以先來做一些相關的實用者調查因為"},{"start":221.994,"end":234.947,"text":"日本他們做了 不管是對學生 對老師 教職員他們做了很多的調查發現大家最想要改變的設施竟然是廁所所以不曉得說教育部我們是不是可以先啟動相關的研究跟調查了解他們的心聲到底是什麼"},{"start":237.385,"end":265.586,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想這個教育部當然很樂意來做這樣一個調查因為確實我們把學校怎麼成為一個社區的一個這一個防災的一個增加它的社區防災的一個韌性我想在社區裡面的中小學它確實是一個非常適合的一個場域那怎麼樣去提供社區的一些民眾有一個更好的一個在災難的時候災難的一個"},{"start":267.067,"end":283.897,"text":"這個學校的一個廁所使用我想這我們樂意這一個會合我們馬上立即來做那我想可能也要請教一下環境部包委我們台灣大概一半一半一半是蹲室一半是做事我們進入高齡化社會這個蹲室其實不是利於老人家"},{"start":284.517,"end":313.349,"text":"的上廁所而且這個蹲式的廁所呢比這個坐式的廁所更髒等於是說這個是不對的事情所以我們會逐步的來推動那我們現在也有訂了一些指引那目前的教育部也委託台灣設計研究院來規劃我們下一代的一個廁所希望學校在蓋或是一般公車要蓋的時候要長什麼樣子我們期待能夠大家慢慢的來去做改進那我想齁這個可能也要回應到就是學生跟老師們的意見就是說因為這個指引上面有沒有去設定坐式跟蹲式的比例呢是"},{"start":314.102,"end":336.639,"text":"目前來說的話當然新建新的最好都是做事為主因為我們敦市佔了一半比例實在太高我們希望能夠慢慢的往下降好那這個設定的目標我希望就是說我們可能也可以再來持續的討論怎麼樣是一個比較合理能夠真正達到一個防災的韌性那我想這部分可能內政部國土署也需要提供一些相關的建議應該也要一起來合作對不對"},{"start":338.894,"end":355.119,"text":"是非常謝謝委員能夠關心各地的公廁能夠關心這個表示委員這個觀察很細微我到很多興建的工程區包括第三航廈淘機的第三航廈我要求看的就是廁所不是看它多漂亮而是看它裡面的配備"},{"start":356.039,"end":384.438,"text":"比方說他是不是有做事的那要不要現在比較潮流合乎的是要不要加裝免治以及他所有的坐墊的鋪設等等以及按水的那個按鈕是不是可以不用人手去接觸如果我們都往這個細緻去走整個環境就會比現在改善很多另外就是男廁女廁的比例一定要更合理增加女廁不要讓女生上廁所非常不方便所以我想這部分的話我們是不是可以在"},{"start":385.839,"end":412.57,"text":"可不可以先在三個月內提出一個初步的規劃,我們要前進的方向,環境部跟教育部這邊OK嗎?是,沒有問題,那我也特別說一下,因為之前我到立法院來的時候,發現立法院的廁所不怎麼好而且立法院的衛生紙都只能丟垃圾桶,造成立法院的這個廁所是很髒又聞到別人的味道,又看到別人的東西所以其實也謝謝韓院長支持我們,所以目前立法院的這個廁所直接衛生紙丟馬桶"},{"start":413.69,"end":428.4,"text":"但是有些地方還是主設的特別厲害,需要大家的如廁文化要養成,這個很重要這部分也要非常感謝韓院長,提升我們大家的公共空間那在下一個問題,兩位部長可以先請回,先請文化部"},{"start":434.767,"end":463.499,"text":"部長身體還好吧慢慢來慢慢來不要緊不要緊慢慢來保重保重慢慢來慢慢來那部長我接下來就要來討論我們的轉型正義的題目因為我想我們這幾年來大家其實都做轉型作業的非常辛苦但是因為今年有一部電影叫做《世紀血案》再加上賈永傑開了一個油罐車整個帶動了很多人第一次去參觀國家人權館中正紀念堂但是我想轉型正義最大的問題就是如何出圈如何跨出同溫層"},{"start":464.699,"end":493.368,"text":"不然如果只有關注轉型正義的人在談轉型正義那就沒有辦法真正的走進社會所以我今天想要談的就是說如何讓轉型正義走出同溫層成為社會真正的對話那非常感謝院長在去年的12月跟6月的推動轉型正義匯報都已經裁示了未來中正紀念堂要往歷史記憶保存與民主教育推廣的方向來轉型並且原則上同意將其轉型為民主教育園區那這個是我從加入立法院以來一直持續的在"},{"start":494.168,"end":510.302,"text":"质询也关心的方向所以我非常肯定行政院那目前文化部也展开了许多社会沟通的尝试例如长盛展的自由花蕾我也去看过了那许多国际的旅客的评价也非常好那我们的人权电影院呢也试着放映我们的台语跟国际人权电影"},{"start":511.304,"end":538.937,"text":"讓更多人可以來接觸台灣的民主歷程但是我們現在有規劃要至少每一年辦80場的轉型正義活動我想問一下我們的成果應該不是只是看活動數量也不是只有看活動人數應該要有一些指標或是KPI來確保我們有出圈不然大家都知道長期過去參與的都是熟面孔如果只是熟面孔那真的是沒有辦法跟社會對話所以我想請教一下"},{"start":539.597,"end":559.415,"text":"我們有沒有任何的量化指標謝謝委員我們從去年到今年那個自由的花蕊對外的來參觀的人數四個月已經達到11萬人我們針對每一個人都想叫他填表格他幾歲"},{"start":560.592,"end":571.51,"text":"為什麼知道這個展覽然後有什麼感想反應非常熱烈讓我們展開一系列的人權的演講這個禮拜天第一場來了一百多人年齡差不多從16歲到65歲"},{"start":572.762,"end":598.829,"text":"我們也請他填你怎麼知道所以提起來是有一些問卷統計而且非常仔細那這些問卷統計的資料是不是也可以提供給我們辦公室我們來去確保可能有些人是第一次來參與的那這對我們來說就非常珍貴好嗎是 謝謝好 那這個機制的部分的話我們是大概一個禮拜這些相關的機制或者是問卷的調查結果是一個禮拜還是兩個禮拜可以提供給我們兩個禮拜好了好 謝謝"},{"start":601.389,"end":620.321,"text":"但是我還有注意到一個很值得討論的現象如果中正競團未來要轉型成民主教育園區那我們現在所提供的課程內容那就應該是反映這個地方所傳達的價值但是我想院長你可以看見我去看了目前園區最新可報名的課程總共有181門課程可是只有一場"},{"start":621.181,"end":646.384,"text":"跟轉型正義有關其餘的內容跟轉型正義完全搭不上邊等於就是說只有一趴與轉型正義有關對於這樣子的開課比例您認為有符合我們的目標嗎我想委員所講的就是殘年以來中中紀念堂所排的演講包括健康生活等等但是今年配合那個自由的花蕊我剛剛講說我們已經推動一整年的那個人權課程"},{"start":647.469,"end":662.78,"text":"而且這些課程包括比較輕鬆的講到對 但是我們現在是看它那個上面可以報名的這個是在不同的地方報名嗎這個資料上可能就是去年到今年原來的一些課程那我們今年配合自由華瑞已經開始增加這些講座"},{"start":664.4,"end":683.042,"text":"好那部長我其實就一個簡單的要求啦我認為在我們相關的課程裡面呢應該要某個比例上面我希望院長也可以來支持我們應該要達到至少某個比例是跟轉型正義有關係的會會好嗎這個部分是可以的嗎這個絕對沒有問題好那這部分研議大概是多少比例是不是也可以再提供給我們是可以那我們研議要多久時間"},{"start":686.513,"end":713.098,"text":"我們請部裡面先分析一下現在所有的內容那如果調整也要有相當的包括能夠去談這個座談、課程等等的這些人籌集起來以後再把這些資料跟委員來做說明其實委員我們在這兩三年的努力中正紀念壇已經產生某種質變就是走進自由花蕾的那些群眾"},{"start":713.973,"end":734.008,"text":"外國的還有本國的人那個都偏年輕那個質變就是中正經驗堂的定義開始有點變了大家都知道這裡是人權教育的一個場所好沒關係 因為部長因為我還有下一題所以我時間有限那之後再把資料提供給我好了謝謝那我們時間先暫停一下我要請教育部部長"},{"start":738.863,"end":759.063,"text":"我們民主教育園區這個方向是正確的讓我們速度就循序漸進當現在的社會已經漸漸接受了我們就利用各種潛移默惡的方式融入到整個活動裡面去讓它成為一個不再過去那種威權形象的一個民主教育館這個是我想部長是要表達這樣的意思"},{"start":759.465,"end":777.462,"text":"了解那我接下來就是再回到教育部因為我知道部長在轉型正義上面非常努力其實團體都非常肯定也都有跟我回報這件事情那根據行政院最新修正的國家轉型正義教育行動綱領的第20頁明確提到會鼓勵各級學校結合抱歉我簡報好像沒有動喔好謝謝"},{"start":779.851,"end":808.45,"text":"那我们的国家转型正义教育系统纲领其实就有提到鼓励各级学校结合和平纪念日啊白色恐怖记忆日等等的来制定转型正义教育周那国教署其实也有相关的补助就是如果结合多次的户外教育活动将提高补助金额以作为鼓励那也有把相关的资讯放在户外教育资源平台那等于是说我们现在是有补助又有给一些资源但是呢我们可以看到下一页我们的文史相关的场域抱歉是上一页哦"},{"start":809.861,"end":836.131,"text":"再上一頁 抱歉我們可以看到我們所有的文史相關的場域點數只有其他的五分之一等於總數上面我們就是少的了我們可以看到它只有29個點其他有100個點以上那老師如果真的有心要去查其他也查不太到因為我們如果用下頁轉型正義或不依止去做搜尋的時候結果都是零那如果用人權去搜尋也只有4個"},{"start":837.111,"end":865.1,"text":"所以等於是說這個會讓有心好不容易鼓起勇氣去做這件事情的老師等於路徑非常的曲折所以這部分是不是可以做出調整跟我們報告事實上我們今年來我們在轉型生有一些更積極的一些做法包含我們教育部在3月4號是一個不會就到這個景美的人我知道這個我知道"},{"start":866.991,"end":883.969,"text":"第二個就是說這基本上就是一個態度我們對這一個一定會堅決的來執行那在大學這一個部分剛才委員所關心的這一個譬如說我們怎麼樣去轉型這許多的這些我們一直相信有些歷史不只是只有存在課本裡面"},{"start":885.509,"end":895.119,"text":"也存在在這一塊土地的一個記憶思維所以我目前今年裡面有大學有我們CodeUSR有七所大學裡面我們開始結合地方的"},{"start":900.945,"end":924.223,"text":"就是說為什麼講這個是all in這個記憶行動轉型正義校外教學補助計畫呢就是說我們做這麼多事情可是學校老師其實不敢自己做這件事情他要承擔很多的責難所以是不是我們可以有一個轉型正義的校外教學的補助計畫用政策引導來讓這些老師參加這個校外教學計畫是的我們一直都是這樣在做而且今年一定會"},{"start":929.977,"end":930.562,"text":"好謝謝張艾玲委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:50:02.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:50:03.436000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們有請院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-24T15:50:03.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:50:03.696000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-24T15:50:14.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:50:15.065000+08:00","text":"張委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:50:15.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:50:15.765000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:50:16.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:50:37.696000+08:00","text":"我今天要先討論一個非常民生的問題，前陣子我看到新聞提到，臺灣經濟非常發達，我們有一流的晶片，但是我們的公廁卻是三流；我也看到今天的新聞提到，臺股市值已經到全球第七，我們的經濟非常富裕，但是我們許多公共空間其實是有滿多可以討論的空間。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:50:38.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:50:54.152000+08:00","text":"我把這些相關新聞發到我的臉書上，意外引起非常熱烈的討論，所以我想要跟院長討論，我們的廁所跟學生健康、校園安全，甚至防災都有關係，我想大家可能會覺得跟防災有什麼關係？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:50:54.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:50:55.073000+08:00","text":"待會我們繼續講下去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:50:55.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:51:14.563000+08:00","text":"首先我們來看現在亞洲推動公共廁所的規劃及概況是什麼樣子的，我們可以看到不管日本、韓國、新加坡或是以前所說的亞洲四小龍，大家其實都在往坐式廁所的方向前進，可是對於這些相關的資料，我們好像都沒有那麼明確的了解我們的方向到底是什麼？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:51:14.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:51:15.784000+08:00","text":"現在的狀況到底是如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:51:16.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:51:17.885000+08:00","text":"是什麼樣的狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:51:17.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:51:38.432000+08:00","text":"不過我也要先感謝院長支持，我們在114年到116年有編列41.89億元持續推動學校老舊廁所的整建，我在想我們現在改善老舊廁所設備的時候，是不是可以一併思考我們的方向到底是什麼？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:51:38.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:51:56.421000+08:00","text":"為什麼大家會想要往這樣的方向前進，主要是因為高齡化是個明確的問題，對於很多長者或者行動不便者來說，坐式廁所是更加的友善，對於孕婦來說也非常安全，甚至日本也做了一些研究，對於國際旅客來說，這也是一個更友善的方向。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:51:57.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:52:08.390000+08:00","text":"但我們可以看到臺灣現在相關的這些設備還停留在99年，這就是為什麼我希望我們可不可以再精進，跟上我們的經濟發展。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:52:09.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:52:31.609000+08:00","text":"接下來我想要特別講到關於學校的部分，因為今年2月底的時候我去日本參訪，我們也拜訪了許多日本的民間團體，他們提到一個讓我滿驚訝的就是，內閣官房設定2030年避難所的廁所要達到百分之百都是坐式廁所，為什麼？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:52:31.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:52:59.099000+08:00","text":"因為在2016年熊本大地震結束的時候，他們去避難所詢問這些災民什麼事情對他們來說是最苦惱的，簡單來說就是廁所，因為在避難狀態下，他們其實是很需要保持清潔，坐式廁所就可以保持很好的清潔狀態，而且很多長者、很多孕婦都會進入學校避難，如果學校的廁所是蹲式的話，對他們來說就是無法使用。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:52:59.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:53:10.243000+08:00","text":"也因為官房的方向是這樣，所以文部省有設定每年要逐步改善廁所，目前最新的資料是已經達到69.3%了。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:53:14.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:53:25.766000+08:00","text":"我在想臺灣也是一個天災很多的國家，日本把學校做為避難空間，我們也是，那麼廁所是不是可以提升我們所謂的防災韌性呢？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:53:26.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:53:34.353000+08:00","text":"所以我想請教一下，教育部這邊是不是可以先做相關的使用者調查？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:53:34.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:53:48.947000+08:00","text":"因為日本針對不管是學生、老師或教職員做了很多調查，發現大家最想改變的設施竟然是廁所，所以我不曉得教育部是不是可以啟動相關研究跟調查，了解他們的心聲到底是什麼？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-03-24T15:53:51.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:54:26.110000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的關心，我想教育部當然很樂意來做這樣一個調查，因為確實，學校要怎麼增加社區防災的韌性，我想在社區裡面的中小學確實是一個非常適合的場域，怎麼樣去提供社區民眾在災難時在學校有更好的廁所可以使用，我想這件事我們很樂意，會後我們會馬上立即來做。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:54:26.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:54:29.612000+08:00","text":"好，了解，我想這個可能也要請教環境部。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-24T15:54:29.612000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T15:54:30.612000+08:00","text":"請彭部長說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-03-24T15:54:30.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:54:43.059000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們臺灣大概是一半、一半，一半是蹲式、一半是坐式，我們進入高齡化社會，蹲式其實不利於老人家上廁所，而且蹲式廁所比坐式廁所更髒……沒錯。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-03-24T15:54:43.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:55:00.106000+08:00","text":"等於說這是不對的事情，所以我們會逐步來推動，我們現在有訂定一些指引，目前教育部也委託臺灣設計研究院來規劃下一代的廁所，希望學校在蓋廁所或一般公廁要蓋的時候要長什麼樣子，我們期待能夠慢慢來改進。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:55:00.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:55:07.009000+08:00","text":"我想這可能要也回應到學生跟老師的意見，在這個指引上有沒有去設定坐式跟蹲式的比例呢？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-03-24T15:55:08.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:55:16.728000+08:00","text":"目前來說的話，當然興建新的最好都是坐式為主，因為我們蹲式占了一半，這個比例實在太高，我們希望能夠慢慢地往下降。","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:55:17.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:55:30.639000+08:00","text":"好，這個設定的目標，我希望我們可以持續來討論怎樣是比較合理且能夠真正達到防災的韌性，這部分可能內政部國土署也需要提供相關建議，而且也應該要一起來合作啦，對不對？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-24T15:55:32.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:55:51.940000+08:00","text":"是，非常謝謝委員關心各地的公廁，能夠關心這個，表示委員的觀察很細微，我到很多新建工程去，包括桃機的第三航廈，我要求看的就是廁所，不是看它多漂亮，而是看它裡面的配備，比方說是不是坐式的？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-24T15:55:52.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:55:56.103000+08:00","text":"要不要加裝現在比較潮流的免治？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-24T15:55:56.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:56:08.411000+08:00","text":"以及所有座墊的鋪設、按水的按鈕是不是可以不用人手去自行接觸等等，如果我們都往比較細緻的方向去走，整個環境就會比現在改善很多。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-24T15:56:08.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:56:15.616000+08:00","text":"另外就是男廁、女廁的比例一定要更合理，增加女廁的數量，不要讓女生上廁所非常不方便。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:56:16.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:56:23.340000+08:00","text":"沒錯，所以這個部分是不是可以在3個月內提出一個初步的規劃、我們要前進的方向？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:56:24.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:56:27.682000+08:00","text":"環境部、教育部這邊OK嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-03-24T15:56:27.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:56:28.302000+08:00","text":"報告委員，沒有問題。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-03-24T15:56:28.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:56:53.314000+08:00","text":"我也特別說一下，之前我到立法院來的時候發現立法院的廁所不怎麼好，而且立法院廁所的衛生紙只能丟垃圾桶，造成立法院的廁所很髒，要聞到別人的味道、看到別人的東西，所以也謝謝韓院長支持我們，目前立法院廁所的衛生紙是直接丟馬桶，但有一些地方還是堵塞的特別厲害，還是需要大家養成如廁文化，這個很重要。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:56:54.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:56:57.437000+08:00","text":"好，這部分也非常感謝韓院長提升大家的公共空間。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:56:58.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:57:02.380000+08:00","text":"兩位部長可以先請回，接下來要請文化部。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-24T15:57:08.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:57:09.547000+08:00","text":"部長，身體還好吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-24T15:57:10.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:57:10.928000+08:00","text":"慢慢來、慢慢來，不要急。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-24T15:57:10.928000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T15:57:12.028000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-24T15:57:12.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:57:12.889000+08:00","text":"保重、保重，慢慢來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:57:17.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:57:50.903000+08:00","text":"部長，我接下來要討論有關轉型正義的題目，我想這幾年來大家其實做轉型正義做的真的非常辛苦，但因為今年有一部電影叫做世紀血案，加上賈永媫開了一個油罐車，整個帶動了很多人第一次去參觀國家人權館、中正紀念堂，但是我想轉型正義最大的問題就是如何出圈、如何跨出同溫層，如果只有關注轉型正義的人在談轉型正義，那就沒有辦法真正的走進社會，所以我今天想要談的就是如何讓轉型正義走出同溫層，成為社會真正的對話。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:57:51.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:58:10.370000+08:00","text":"非常感謝院長在去年12月跟6月推動轉型正義會報都已經裁示未來中正紀念堂要往歷史記憶保存與民主教育推廣的方向去轉型，並且原則上同意將其轉型為民主教育園區，這是我加入立法院來一直持續質詢且關心的方向，所以我非常肯定行政院。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:58:11.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:58:27.605000+08:00","text":"目前文化部也展開了許多社會溝通的嘗試，例如常設展「自由花蕊」我也去看過了，許多國際旅客的評價也非常好，我們的人權電影院也試著放映臺語跟國際人權電影，讓更多人可以接觸臺灣的民主歷程。","quality":0.699},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:58:27.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:58:52.076000+08:00","text":"但是我們現在有規劃至少每年辦80場的轉型正義活動，我想問一下我們的成果應該不是只看活動數量，也不是只有看活動的人數，應該要有一些指標或是KPI來確保我們有出圈，不然大家都知道嘛，過去長期參與的都是熟面孔，如果只是熟面孔，那真的沒有辦法跟社會對話。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:58:52.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:58:58.742000+08:00","text":"所以我想請教一下，我們有沒有任何的量化指標？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T15:58:58.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:16.415000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，從去年到今年，「自由花蕊」對外開展以來，參觀人數在4個月已經達到11萬人次，我們針對每一個人都想要叫他填表格，想問他幾歲、為什麼知道這個展覽以及有什麼感想？","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:16.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:17.778000+08:00","text":"反應非常熱烈。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:18.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:28.662000+08:00","text":"我們也展開一系列的人權演講，這個禮拜天舉辦第一場，來了一百多人，年齡差不多從16歲到65歲，我們也請他們填寫是怎麼知道這個消息……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:28.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:31.423000+08:00","text":"所以聽起來是有一些問卷統計在了解他們……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:31.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:32.463000+08:00","text":"有，而且非常仔細。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:33.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:37.945000+08:00","text":"這些問卷的統計資料是不是也可以提供給我們辦公室？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:37.945000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:39.125000+08:00","text":"沒問題，我們每一場……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:39.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:44.386000+08:00","text":"我們來確保可能有些人是第一次來參與的，這些人對我們來說就非常珍貴，好嗎？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:44.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:45.007000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:46.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:50.768000+08:00","text":"這個機制的部分，大概一個禮拜可以將這些相關機制或是問卷調查結果提供給我們嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:50.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:52.689000+08:00","text":"是一個禮拜還是兩個禮拜可以提供我們？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:52.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:52.789000+08:00","text":"兩個禮拜好了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:52.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T15:59:52.829000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T15:59:55.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:00:23.609000+08:00","text":"但是我還有注意到一個很值得討論的現象，如果中正紀念堂未來要轉型成民主教育園區，那我們現在提供的課程內容就應該反映這個地方傳達的價值，但是我想院長可以看見，我去看了目前園區最新可報名的課程總共有181門，可是只有一場跟轉型正義有關，其餘的內容跟轉型正義完全搭不上邊，等於就是說只有1%與轉型正義有關。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:00:23.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:00:27.072000+08:00","text":"對於這樣子的開課比例，您認為有符合我們的目標嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T16:00:27.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:00:44.531000+08:00","text":"我想委員所講的就是長年以來中正紀念堂所排的演講，包括健康、生活等等，但是今年配合「自由花蕊」，我剛剛講說我們已經推動一整年的人權課程，而且這些課程包括比較輕鬆地講到……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:00:45.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:00:47.593000+08:00","text":"對，但是我們現在是看他上面可以報名的……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T16:00:47.593000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:00:48.593000+08:00","text":"這個可能是由……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:00:47.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:00:49.955000+08:00","text":"那這個是在不同的地方報名嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T16:00:49.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:00:56.760000+08:00","text":"這個資料可能就是去年到今年原來的一些課程，那我們今年配合「自由花蕊」已經開始增加這些講座。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:00:58.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:01:08.332000+08:00","text":"好，部長，我其實就一個簡單的要求，我認為在我們相關的課程裡面，應該要有某個比例上面，我希望院長也可以來支持，我們應該要達到至少某個比例是跟轉型正義有關係的，好嗎？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T16:01:09.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:01:09.593000+08:00","text":"會，會的。好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:01:09.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:01:10.895000+08:00","text":"這個部分是可以的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T16:01:10.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:01:11.356000+08:00","text":"這個絕對沒問題，好的。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:01:11.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:01:14.659000+08:00","text":"研議這部分大概是多少比例後，是不是也可以再提供給我們？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T16:01:14.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:01:15+08:00","text":"是，可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:01:15.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:01:17.042000+08:00","text":"那你們研議要多久的時間？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:01:17.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:01:20.513000+08:00","text":"一個月？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-24T16:01:20.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:01:37.096000+08:00","text":"我們請部長責成部裡面先分析一下現在所有的內容，如果調整，也要有相當的時間，包括將能夠去開這個座談、課程等等的這些人籌集起來以後，再把這些資料跟委員來做說明。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:01:37.096000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:01:38.096000+08:00","text":"沒問題。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T16:01:37.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:01:59.422000+08:00","text":"其實委員，在我們這兩、三年的努力後，中正紀念堂已經產生某種質變，就是走進「自由花蕊」的那些群眾，包括外國人還有本國人的年齡都偏年輕，那個質變就是中正紀念堂的定義開始有點變了，大家都知道這裡是人權教育的一個場所，然後……","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:02:00.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:02:06.147000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，部長，因為我還有下一題，我時間有限，之後再把資料提供給我好了，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李部長遠","start":"2026-03-24T16:02:06.147000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:02:07.147000+08:00","text":"OK，好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:02:06.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:02:08.008000+08:00","text":"我的時間先暫停一下，我要請教育部部長。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-24T16:02:12.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:02:33.625000+08:00","text":"我替部長講一句話，如果我們轉型民主教育園區這個方向是正確的，那我們的速度就是循序漸進，當現在的社會已經漸漸接受了，我們就利用各種潛移默化的方式融入整個活動裡面去，讓它成為一個不再是過去那種威權的形象，而是一個民主教育館，我想部長是要表達這樣的意思。了解。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:02:34.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:02:41.673000+08:00","text":"我接下來就再回到教育部，我知道部長在轉型正義上面非常的努力，其實團體都非常肯定，也都有跟我回報這件事情。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:02:42.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:03:17.526000+08:00","text":"根據行政院最新修正的國家轉型正義教育行動綱領的第20頁明確的提到，鼓勵各級學校結合和平紀念日、白色恐怖記憶日等等的來制定「轉型正義教育週」，國教署其實也有相關的補助，就是如果結合多次的戶外教育活動，將提高補助金額以作為鼓勵，也有把相關的資訊放在戶外教育資源平臺，那等於是說我們現在是有補助，又有給一些資源。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:03:18.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:03:39.127000+08:00","text":"但是我們可以看到我們所有文史相關的場域點數只有其他的五分之一，等於總數上面就是少的了，我們可以看到它只有29個點，其他有100個點以上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:03:40.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:01.394000+08:00","text":"老師如果真的有心要去查，其實他也查不太到，因為我們如果用「轉型正義」或「不義遺址」去搜尋的時候，結果都是零；如果用「人權」去搜尋也只有四個，這個會讓有心、好不容易鼓起勇氣去做這件事情的老師，等於路徑非常的曲折啦，這部分是不是可以做出調整呢？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:02.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:12.758000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，事實上今年以來我們在轉型正義領域有一些更積極的做法，包含我們教育部在3月4號的部務會議……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:12.758000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:15.659000+08:00","text":"部長，抱歉，我們這個方向……","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:15.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:18.119000+08:00","text":"就到景美的人……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:18.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:19.080000+08:00","text":"我知道，這個我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:20.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:26.317000+08:00","text":"第二個就是說，這基本上就是一個態度，我們對這個一定會堅決的來執行……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:26.317000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:27.317000+08:00","text":"對，那這個路徑……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:26.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:37.949000+08:00","text":"那在大學這部分，剛才委員所關心的這部分，譬如說我們怎麼樣去轉型正義等許多的這些，我們一直相信有些歷史不是只有存在課本裡面……對。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:39.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:41.291000+08:00","text":"也存在在這一塊土地的記憶之中……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:41.291000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:42.973000+08:00","text":"對，部長，不好意思，我要……","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:42.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:43.593000+08:00","text":"怎麼樣去做，所以我們目前……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:43.593000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:44.593000+08:00","text":"我要打斷一下喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:44.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:49.099000+08:00","text":"今年裡面有大學，我們CO-USR有七所大學裡面，我們開始結合地方的……","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:49.099000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:04:55.786000+08:00","text":"部長，抱歉，先讓我講話，抱歉，不然我這樣沒有辦法講，因為我的時間要結束了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:04:55.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:05:00.589000+08:00","text":"我為什麼講這個是All IN記憶行動轉型正義校外教學補助計畫呢？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:05:00.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:05:15.441000+08:00","text":"就是說我們做這麼多事情，可是學校老師其實不敢自己做這件事情，他要承擔很多的責難，所以是不是我們可以有一個轉型正義的校外教學的補助計畫，用政策引導來讓這些老師參加這個校外教學計畫，然後……","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-03-24T16:05:15.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:05:18.223000+08:00","text":"是的，我們一直都是這樣在做，而且今年一定會更加碼。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:05:18.223000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:05:23.977000+08:00","text":"更加碼是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-03-24T16:05:23.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:05:24.159000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-24T16:05:24.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-24T16:05:24.562000+08:00","text":"謝謝張委員。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-24T16:05:25.062000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:05:32.776286+08:00","text":"謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-24T16:05:33.076286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:05:45.362000+08:00","text":"報告院會，本日排定的質詢委員已經質詢完畢，非常感謝卓院長、鄭副院長、各位相關部會首長列席的答詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-24T16:05:45.662000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:05:53.376286+08:00","text":"現在作以下決定：下次會議繼續進行施政方針及施政報告之質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-24T16:05:53.676286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:06:05.390571+08:00","text":"今天非常謝謝羅廷瑋委員陪同我們整個下午都在這裡一起開施政總質詢會議，非常感謝，現在散會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-24T16:06:05.690571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-24T16:06:06.833429+08:00","text":"散會（16時5分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}