{"error":false,"id":["167834"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":167834,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167834","日期":"2026-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-03-25T09:35:25+08:00","結束時間":"2026-03-25T09:46:32+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:07","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/755992caaad3baaef960dabd24e96b1e9e5efe6b22224a4dfd4d311afd6111d326c4e24d5983e9f25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:35:25 - 09:46:32","會議時間":"2026-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及26日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":5.0934687499999995,"end":10.223468750000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":10.341593750000001,"end":11.72534375,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":14.442218750000002,"end":14.965343750000002,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":14.965343750000002,"end":15.083468750000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":15.353468750000001,"end":44.12534375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":44.580968750000004,"end":180.03659375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":181.28534375,"end":195.94971875000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":196.75971875000002,"end":223.33784375000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":223.77659375000002,"end":230.18909375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":230.89784375000002,"end":246.45659375000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":246.64221875,"end":252.80159375000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":253.54409375000003,"end":261.66096875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":262.28534375000004,"end":286.53471875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":287.91846875000005,"end":310.10909375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":310.96971875,"end":409.58721875000003,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":409.97534375000004,"end":418.91909375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":419.74596875000003,"end":445.58159375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":446.25659375000004,"end":465.89909375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":466.38846875,"end":500.47596875000005,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":500.81346875,"end":553.8515937500001,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":554.22284375,"end":559.36971875,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":559.36971875,"end":563.6728437500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":561.0403437500001,"end":563.06534375,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":563.6728437500001,"end":565.7822187500001,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":563.75721875,"end":563.8584687499999,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":564.7022187499999,"end":565.03971875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":565.7822187500001,"end":582.2690937500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":582.45471875,"end":582.47159375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":582.47159375,"end":588.05721875,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":583.6528437500001,"end":587.1965937500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":587.82096875,"end":588.0234687500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":588.05721875,"end":588.1753437500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":588.1753437500001,"end":591.9890937499999,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":593.30534375,"end":603.95346875,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":602.58659375,"end":623.10659375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":619.1240937499999,"end":626.51534375,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":626.31284375,"end":630.73409375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":627.5615937499999,"end":635.07096875,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":631.66221875,"end":631.8647187500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":634.36221875,"end":634.88534375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":635.45909375,"end":637.02846875,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":637.02846875,"end":639.12096875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":638.54721875,"end":638.96909375,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":639.52596875,"end":639.54284375,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":639.54284375,"end":660.77159375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":639.9309687500001,"end":641.38221875,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":655.86096875,"end":656.72159375,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":659.80971875,"end":661.91909375,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":661.19346875,"end":664.1297187499999,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":663.5053437500001,"end":663.7922187500001,"speaker_score":0.709},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":664.5178437500001,"end":665.2265937500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張署長致盛","start":666.01971875,"end":667.0828437499999,"speaker_score":0.709}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.117,"end":9.55,"text":"好 謝謝昭緯還有請我們喝咖啡有請那個蘇仁市長來 請仁市長"},{"start":14.468,"end":20.753,"text":"蘇人事長早安因為我在擔任立委前就是教師大學老師所以長期關心教育的議題今天是第一次跟您質詢從今天跟未來我都會針對這題持續追蹤就是中小學教師荒我認為人事總署責無旁貸為什麼這樣講人事長你可以看一下這邊這個是師資培育統計年報裡面"},{"start":44.951,"end":65.887,"text":"這個所謂的正式教師離職人數就是還沒有到退休的就離職人數一直持續上升從109學年度到我現在的資料是到113學年度五年增加了四成而且這裡面你可以看到國小、國中、高中這三項國小的離職人數特別多"},{"start":66.627,"end":89.958,"text":"那這個部分呢在下一頁喔那你可以看到根據也是教育部的相關的統計聯合報還報導過這所有的離職教師的年齡結構是40到50歲也就是終身帶流失的最嚴重他最可能還沒有到退休就離職那我覺得這是非常可惜的因為他如果從20幾歲開始當老師那這其實是黃金的10年"},{"start":95.881,"end":116.08,"text":"40到50歲可是這個時候我們國家的教育的第一線卻有這麼多的老師中生代老師離職但是更嚴重的是這邊這個是教育部的資料但是我的辦公室又進一步整理您看一下如果後面有人補上來也許問題就不嚴重了可是你看到這邊我們整理的從106年到112年"},{"start":120.985,"end":147.337,"text":"師資儲備人員三年內參加公立學校教師甄選的比例那個人事長你看一下從106年的42.8%到112年31.25%本來就很多人就不考了他已經被培訓完畢其實是有花了很多的師資培育的資源可是"},{"start":148.578,"end":162.293,"text":"這幾年內降了四分之一 願意報考的也就是說他有教師證合格但是願意報考的教徵不擔任不考 連考都不去考三年內考一次就算有去考 佔了七成"},{"start":163.254,"end":179.93,"text":"所以就是你新生代教師有教師證願意報考教徵的比例越來越低後面沒有補上來然後中間又離職中生代又離職還有更嚴重的是退休潮又要到了"},{"start":181.345,"end":195.697,"text":"郑英耀部长他分析过去有第一波退休潮是民国90年左右因为我们57年的时候国民教育就是推动9年义务教育那可是以30年为一个世代因为当时补了一批嘛"},{"start":197.158,"end":222.769,"text":"這個下一波的退休潮在民國120年耶就是五年後耶所以如果現在不補的話那其實校園的教師荒的問題會越來越嚴重因為中生代還沒有退休就提前離職新生代教師拒絕投入退休潮在五年後也就是2031年就要發生了大規模30年一次的這個退休潮"},{"start":223.829,"end":252.017,"text":"那我想請問人事長您可以看一下我在兩年前就開始關心教師荒的議題左邊這個照片是2024年9月我跟三大教師團體跟家長協會一起就提醒大家有全台教師荒2024年10月當年的10月我總質詢的時候卓院長當天坎然承諾會合理調整人跟錢"},{"start":253.775,"end":277.504,"text":"結果呢 沒有看到下文 我又去問教育部長部長呢 他說他只能夠開出這個行政副組長就是一個兼職的解方你看一下 老師當然不會只有一個是人士喔可是你看一下 這是親子天下他的幸福感調查為什麼老師覺得不幸福 當老師不好年輕人為什麼不當"},{"start":278.905,"end":286.139,"text":"這五大理由中其中的一個行政繁重偏離教學專業是其中很重要的原因"},{"start":287.967,"end":309.856,"text":"那我也要跟人事長說,教育部真的有在努力,教育部努力了,從原本說加級過低,他提高加級,雖然錢還不夠高,但是有努力,每個月一千到兩千。那增設行政副組長是他提出來的,可是行政副組長也是教師要兼任行政職啊。"},{"start":311.036,"end":332.023,"text":"那我問教育部長為什麼只能降著兼行政職他們都說是你們人事總署這邊沒有辦法提供協助那我想跟人事總署講你當然就是說緊縮不願意增聘我們可以理解您為國家在節省資源可是你看一下別的國家怎麼面對教育現場的議題"},{"start":333.604,"end":350.749,"text":"因為這個教育議題在各國都會發生包含世代包含數位剛剛也提到數位的世代英國的做法2025年名列23項教師不應負責的行政事務那如果照英國這樣做的話那行政事務是誰做"},{"start":352.189,"end":379.445,"text":"日本當然有人做 設置教師業務支援員 協助行政數目增設行政專員 叫做教師業務支援員 協助老師所以行政工作只是減項目不夠 兼職還不夠真的需要畫一個邊界 增聘如果就英國跟日本的經驗的話 兼聘專職的行政人員在校園中協助才是解方"},{"start":380.385,"end":409.278,"text":"就是那這件事情絕對需要這邊我們辦公室把英國的政府網站相關的資料都有附在這邊您有興趣可以看校園行政專職化為什麼我今天要來質詢您因為教育部給我的總質詢那個院長答應的事情可是這裡面都講到其中職員員額受到總員額法的控管考量行政專職化還涉及相關法規的修正等"},{"start":410.118,"end":417.927,"text":"所以教育部有心可是相關的規定跟這個總原額法都不支持那這不就是人種的職責嗎"},{"start":420.153,"end":437.6,"text":"所以呢 我想您比我更了解 餘額總量限制的問題那教育部遇到這個困難 那我現在幫忙算一下如果我們全國3600多所國中小 假如我們先算寬一點每間學校多聘兩個行政餘額 就是多7200人那你這個機關餘額總數最高限為160900人"},{"start":446.323,"end":465.336,"text":"那我們當然知道對你來講每一個元額都很珍貴可是我要講的是下一代的教育難道不就是我們為國家的一個投資嗎那下一代沒有人願意當老師然後最後一直都是不管是代理教師或是等等那老師不斷的更換那對我們的"},{"start":466.457,"end":488.602,"text":"不管是家長或是我們下一代的公民都不是一件好事啦所以人總是不是可以針對這個源而提出解放所以那個那個我們這個蘇人事長到目前為止您有沒有感受到就是教育部的焦慮然後得不到你們的支持那卓院長當場承諾顯然人事總處還是覺得教育的議題不值得"},{"start":493.863,"end":518.756,"text":"您在就是援俄方面就是協助那您怎麼怎麼回應我們今天的這個呼聲呢我想還是非常謝謝委員給我這個說明的一個機會事實上在整個中央援俄的部分在教育部端還有1463位如果是用到地方政府的援俄的部分事實上這部分我們不管所以我們過去"},{"start":521.617,"end":543.205,"text":"幾年來一直在跟教育部還有他的國教署我們有做非常多次的一個溝通就是他一定是要跟地方政府做好溝通因為他增加了這個延額很多是地方政府他要來cover那地方政府要來cover他會有增加他的一個財務的支出這種要做好溝通"},{"start":544.645,"end":565.311,"text":"第二個剛才委員一開始提到的行政減量事實上行政減量的部分教育部也一直在努力事實上好像發生一件事情以後大家就事情就是用家法在做對 事情越來越多我們現在不管是霸凌各種東西的一個減法一個是整合"},{"start":565.811,"end":586.909,"text":"那現在我們看到的行政工作都是加法可是人員沒有增加嘛據說您剛講的是說是中央跟地方好像是說教育部沒做好這跟教育部給我的回應不一樣欸他說是職員員額受到總員額法的控管因為我跟各位報告他目前的員額用完了以後我們會按照他整個業務需求來予以協助"},{"start":593.356,"end":621.287,"text":"因為當你口袋還有1463的時候你應該先用完而不是先去帶5000塊來這裡應該先用好那我幫您算一下今天如果每個學校增加兩個行政員額的話7200個人他怎麼可能這一全國有3600多所教育部要公平嗎你說他有1400個名額他連每個學校都分不到一個他當然就是說是0.5你們來兼任啊"},{"start":623.368,"end":638.659,"text":"它裡面support應該有八九成都在地方你要它用完那它怎麼分給3600個學校一個學校一個都用不到啊這個緣額是在地方地方我們現在沒有去管地方的這個緣額的部分所以跟地方緣額也很緊嘛 教育部如果"},{"start":639.58,"end":661.433,"text":"好那個因為時間到了我想聽起來你這邊是說是教育部啦那教育部說是人事總署啦不管是誰請人事總署跟教育部合作就行政專職化的議題研議好嗎從研議給我一個你們兩邊都同意的書面報告可以嗎可以兩個月內好好那我會繼續追這個議題喔好好謝謝好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:30.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:34.289000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委請我們喝咖啡，有請蘇人事長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:34.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:34.550000+08:00","text":"請人事長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:34.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:39.468000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:39.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:40.669000+08:00","text":"蘇人事長早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:40.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:45.212000+08:00","text":"因為我在擔任立委前就是教師、大學老師，所以長期關心教育的議題，今天是第一次跟您質詢，今天跟未來我都會針對這題持續追蹤，就是中小學教師荒，我認為人事總處責無旁貸。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:45.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:45.232000+08:00","text":"為什麼這樣講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:45.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:36:30.867000+08:00","text":"人事長可以看一下，師資培育統計年報裡面正式教師離職人數，就是還沒有到退休年齡就離職的人數一直持續上升，從109學年度到現在我看到的資料是到113學年度，5年增加了四成，而且其中可以看到國小、國中、高中這三項中，國小的離職人數特別多。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:36:36.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:36:53.898000+08:00","text":"根據教育部的相關統計，聯合報還報導過，所有離職教師的年齡結構是40到50歲，也就是中生代流失得最嚴重，他最可能還沒有到退休就離職，我覺得這是非常可惜的。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:36:54.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:37:08.929000+08:00","text":"因為他如果從二十幾歲開始當老師，40到50歲其實是黃金10年，可是這時候，我們國家教育的第一線卻有這麼多中生代老師離職。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:37:09.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:38:07.273000+08:00","text":"更嚴重的是，這是教育部的資料，我的辦公室又進一步做了整理，您看一下，如果後面有人補上來，也許問題就不嚴重了，可是你看到我們整理的資料，從106年到112年，師資儲備人員3年內參加公立學校教師甄選的比例，從106年42.8%到112年31.25%，很多人就不考了，他已經被培訓完畢，其實花了很多師資培育的資源，可是這幾年內願意報考的降了四分之一，也就是說他有合格教師證，但是願意報考教甄的，連考都不去考，3年內考一次就算有去考占了七成耶！","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:38:08.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:38:22.007000+08:00","text":"所以新生代教師有教師證願意報考教甄的比例越來越低，後面沒有補上來，中生代又離職。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:38:22.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:38:46.680000+08:00","text":"還有更嚴重的是，退休潮又要到了，鄭英耀部長分析，過去第一波退休潮是民國90年左右，因為我們57年推動九年義務教育，當時補了一批，以30年為一個世代，下一波的退休潮預計在民國120年，就是5年後耶！","quality":0.709},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:38:47.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:39:07.749000+08:00","text":"所以如果現在不補的話，校園的教師荒問題會越來越嚴重，因為中生代還沒有退休就提前離職，新生代教師拒絕投入，大規模的退休潮又會在5年後也就是2031年發生，30年一次的退休潮。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:39:11.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:40:01.783000+08:00","text":"人事長，我在兩年前就開始關心教師荒的議題，左邊這個照片是2024年9月，我跟三大教師團體、家長協會一起提醒大家有全臺教師荒；2024年10月我在總質詢的時候，卓院長當天慨然承諾會合理調整人跟錢，結果沒有看到下文，我又去問教育部長，部長說他只能夠開出行政副組長，就是一個兼職的解方，老師的部分，當然不會只有人事的問題，你看一下親子天下所做的幸福感調查，為什麼老師覺得不幸福、覺得當老師不好？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:40:02.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:40:02.504000+08:00","text":"為什麼年輕人不願當老師？","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:40:03.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:40:11.119000+08:00","text":"五大理由中的「行政繁重，偏離教學專業」是其中一個很重要的原因。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:40:13.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:40:45.499000+08:00","text":"而我也要跟人事長說，教育部真的有在努力，像原本有一些加給過低，他提高了加給，雖然還不夠多，但是有努力，每個月多了1,000到2,000；增設行政副組長是他提出來的，可是行政副組長也是教師要兼任行政職的，之前我問教育部長為什麼只能這樣兼行政職，他們說是你們人事總處這邊沒有辦法提供協助。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:40:46.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:41:15.729000+08:00","text":"我想跟人事長說要緊縮、不願意增聘，我們可以理解您為國家在節省資源，可是你看一下別的國家是如何面對教育現場的議題，因為這個教育議題在各國都會發生，包含剛剛也提到數位的世代，像英國的做法在2025年明列了23項教師不應負責的行政事務，如果照英國這樣做的話，那行政事務是誰做？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:41:17.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:41:53.789000+08:00","text":"日本當然是有人做，就是設置了教師業務支援員，協助行政庶務，增設了行政專員，叫做「教師業務支援員」，由他們協助老師，所以行政工作只是減項目還不夠、兼職還不夠，真的需要劃一個邊界，如果就英國跟日本的經驗來看，兼聘專職的行政人員在校園中提供協助才是解方，我們辦公室把英國政府網站等相關的資料都附在這邊，您有興趣的話可以參考。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:41:54.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:41:58.751000+08:00","text":"關於校園行政專職化，為什麼我今天要質詢您？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:41:59.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:42:22.927000+08:00","text":"因為教育部答復我的總質詢還有院長答應的事情，裡面都講到了「其中職員員額受到總員額法的控管」、「考量行政專職化還涉及相關法規的修正」等，所以教育部有心，可是相關規定跟總員額法都不支持，這不是人總的職責嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:42:26.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:42:32.416000+08:00","text":"我想您比我更了解員額總量限制的問題，但教育部遇到了這個困難。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:42:32.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:43:01.370000+08:00","text":"我現在幫忙算一下，我們全國有三千六百多所國中小，我們先算寬一點，每間學校多聘兩個行政員額，就是多了7,200人，而你的機關員額總數最高限為16萬900人，我們當然知道，對你來講，每一個員額都很珍貴，可是我要講的是，下一代的教育難道不就是我們為國家的投資嗎？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:43:01.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:43:14.758000+08:00","text":"下一代沒有人願意當老師，最後都是代理教師或是其他等等，老師不斷更換，對家長或者我們下一代的公民都不是一件好事！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:43:15.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:43:19.179000+08:00","text":"所以人總是不是可以針對員額的部分提出解方？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:43:24.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:43:30.321000+08:00","text":"蘇人事長，到目前為止，您有沒有感受到教育部的焦慮？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:43:30.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:43:45.026000+08:00","text":"他們得不到你們的支持，且之前院長當場有承諾，顯然人事總處還是覺得教育的議題不值得您在員額方面提供協助，請問您要怎麼回應我們今天這個呼聲呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2026-03-25T09:43:47.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:43:50.629000+08:00","text":"還是非常謝謝委員給我一個說明的機會。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2026-03-25T09:43:50.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:44:28.185000+08:00","text":"事實上，整個中央員額在教育部端的部分還有1,463位，如果用到地方政府員額的部分，這一部分我們不管，過去這幾年來，我們跟教育部還有國教署做了非常多次溝通，他一定要跟地方政府做好溝通，因為他增加的員額很多是地方政府要來cover的，既然地方政府要cover就會增加他的財務支出，所以這方面要做好溝通。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2026-03-25T09:44:29.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:44:43.529000+08:00","text":"第二個，剛才委員一開始提到的行政減量，其實行政減量的部分，教育部也一直在努力，事實上，好像發生一件事情以後，大家就變成用加法去做。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:44:44.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:44:48.490000+08:00","text":"對，事情越來越多，現在不管是霸凌或是其他各種東西……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2026-03-25T09:44:48.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:44:50.291000+08:00","text":"一個是減法，一個是整合。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:44:51.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:45:02.901000+08:00","text":"現在我們看到的行政工作都是用加法，可是人員沒有增加，您剛講的是中央跟地方之間，好像是教育部沒做好，這跟教育部給我的回應不一樣。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:45:02.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:45:06.924000+08:00","text":"他說是職員的員額受到總員額法的控管，若不增加員額就只能校內調配來運用。","quality":0.485},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2026-03-25T09:45:08.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:45:27.480000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，他目前的員額用完了以後，我們會按照他整個業務需求予以協助，但當你口袋還有1,463元的時候，你應該先用完，而不是先去貸5,000塊，應該先用掉才是。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:45:28.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:45:46.267000+08:00","text":"好，我幫您算一下，今天如果每個學校增加兩個行政員額就要7,200人，全國有三千六百多所學校，且教育部應該要公平，你說他還有一千四百多個名額，但每個學校連一個都分不到，他們當然會說這0.5由老師來兼任啊！","quality":0.678},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2026-03-25T09:45:48.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:45:51.310000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，你剛才說的7,200個裡面，suppose應該有八、九成都在地方……","quality":0.548},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:45:51.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:45:53.892000+08:00","text":"你要他先用完才可以，那他怎麼分給3,600個學校？","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:45:54.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:45:55.453000+08:00","text":"一個學校連一個都分不到啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2026-03-25T09:45:55.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:45:59.777000+08:00","text":"員額是在地方，我們現在沒有管地方員額的部分。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:46:01.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:46:02.899000+08:00","text":"地方員額也很緊嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:46:03.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:46:03.639000+08:00","text":"教育部如果……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2026-03-25T09:46:03.639000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-25T09:46:06.281000+08:00","text":"地方的員額……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:46:06.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:46:24.452000+08:00","text":"因為時間到了，聽起來你這邊說是教育部，教育部說是人事總處，不管是誰，請人事總處跟教育部合作，就行政專職化議題予以研議，給我一個你們兩邊都同意的書面報告，兩個月內提供，可以嗎？可以。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-03-25T09:46:24.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:46:25.932000+08:00","text":"好，我會繼續追這個議題喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2026-03-25T09:46:26.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:46:26.433000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-25T09:46:26.933000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-25T09:46:29.504429+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（范委員雲代）","start":"2026-03-25T09:46:29.804429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-25T09:46:32.947286+08:00","text":"接下來請沈發惠委員詢答。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}