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均同意動資並提報院會 宣讀完畢好 請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處好 沒有齁 那我們議事錄確定齁那我們先來介紹在場的委員齁 陳永康委員羅美玲委員陳俊宇委員陳冠廷委員"},{"start":1822.208,"end":1831.875,"text":"我們介紹列席的官員,今天這個部會比較多國防部部長吳立雄先生副參謀總長執行官黃志偉,上將全民防衛動員署署長李定忠,中將總督察室總督察長張元勛,中將參事石文榮,中將政府辦公室主任孫立芳,中將"},{"start":1852.931,"end":1879.373,"text":"政策作戰局局長陳玉玲中將軍備局局長林文祥中將主計局局長謝其賢中將軍醫局局長蔡建松中將戰略規劃司司長黃文綺中將資源規劃司司長藍靜婷女士法律事務司司長沈世維中將整合評估司司長苗慧芬女士"},{"start":1881.463,"end":1896.986,"text":"國防採工室副主任周怡堅少將人事參謀次長是次長劉沛志中將情報參謀次長是次長謝日申中將作戰及計畫參謀次長是次長連志威中將後勤參謀次長是次長李鳳翔中將通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長鄧恩蓮中將訓練參謀次長是次長郭俊德中將"},{"start":1912.875,"end":1921.802,"text":"陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義中將海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮中將空軍司令部參謀長李慶然中將後備指揮部參謀長薛淵泉少將新兵指揮部參謀長呂振芳少將陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長梁永坤少將石東建軍指揮部參謀長周文祥少將"},{"start":1942.908,"end":1970.865,"text":"軍事情報局執行長李永康 少將電訓發展師副主任吳勇 少將國防大學教育長李承忠 少將國立中山科學研究院院長李世強 中將接下來外交部 外交部司長吳志忠亞東泰明揚司司長賴夏里"},{"start":1974.051,"end":2000.894,"text":"亞新籍非洲司副司長陳永波歐洲司司長黃軍耀北美司司長王陽玉拉丁美洲籍加勒比海司司長鄭麗成國際組織司司長孫簡元國際合作籍經濟事務司副司長林美成國際傳播司副司長蕭美惠研究設計委員會副主任林世新"},{"start":2002.762,"end":2022.67,"text":"人事處處長呂士一政風處處長余世明主機處處長林佩華呃李佩華公眾事務協調會執行長蕭光偉領事事務局副局長陳尚友好 那我們的僑委會僑委會委員長徐家欽好 祖密榮佑娥僑生處處長張文華"},{"start":2032.728,"end":2054.362,"text":"主席是主任林秀燕 僑屋通訊社社長吳曉竹行政院主席總署 公務預算處專門委員邱碧珠那我們今天因為部會比較多所以這個隔壁其實有接下來所以可以的話也可以在隔壁先休息有這個轉播那我們現在請議事人員宣讀報告及討論事項"},{"start":2055.609,"end":2080.067,"text":"報告事項二繼續處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算提出書面報告後 使得動資等五案第一案陸軍司令部第五幕向下遙控無人機防禦系統預算凍結兩百萬元案第二案海軍司令部第五幕向下陸用兼增型無人機預算凍結三百萬元案第三案海軍司令部第五幕向下兼增型無人機預算凍結五百萬元案"},{"start":2080.547,"end":2105.328,"text":"第四案 空軍司令部第五幕向下遙控無人機防禦系統預算凍結三百萬元案第五案 資通電軍指揮部第五幕向下遙控無人機防禦系統預算凍結兩百萬元案三 處理院會交付一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算提出書面報告後 使得凍資等十一案降附件一報告事項 第六案至第十六案第六案"},{"start":2106.229,"end":2114.935,"text":"本部第一幕向下國防採購中業務費預算凍結100萬元案第七案陸軍司令部第五幕向下遙控無人機防禦系統預算凍結90萬元案"},{"start":2117.83,"end":2131.482,"text":"第八案陸軍司令部第八幕第二節向下手榴彈實彈投擲場及反裝甲涉及場新建工程案預算凍結五百萬元案第九案陸軍司令部第八幕第二節向下金湯營區後備訓練場整建掀起規劃案預算凍結五百萬元案"},{"start":2137.287,"end":2155.932,"text":"第十案 海軍司令部第四幕向下資訊服務費預算凍結100萬元案第十一案 直通電軍指揮部第四幕向下軍事裝備及設施預算凍結50萬元案第十二案 政治作戰局第一幕向下委辦費預算凍結100萬元案第十三案 本部第二幕向下國外旅費預算凍結200萬元案第十四案"},{"start":2156.472,"end":2175.091,"text":"全民防衛動員署第三幕向下物品預算凍結100萬元案第十五案陸軍司令部第五幕向下後備部隊手持無線電機補充案預算凍結500萬元案第十六案陸軍司令部第五幕向下國軍後備部隊衛情裝備整備第二階段預算凍結100萬元案"},{"start":2177.523,"end":2197.455,"text":"討論事項一繼續處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管海軍司令部第五目向下國軍HF通信機換裝案預算凍結500萬元案二處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算凍結案一軍備局第四目向下營產管理之"},{"start":2199.175,"end":2206.658,"text":"對國內團體資捐助辦理中科院民雄航太及無人機產業園區開發建設計畫預算凍結30%中案報告案二軍備局第四幕向下營產管理支對國內團體資捐助預算凍結20%中案報告案三國防部主管預算凍結案等21案詳如附件一討論事項第四案至第24案第四案陸軍司令部第八幕第二節向下"},{"start":2225.646,"end":2248.742,"text":"戰場抗壓管新建工程預算凍結3000萬元案第五案海軍司令部第13目向下一班輸入費預算凍結1000萬元案第六案本部第三目向下國家軍事博物館預算凍結10%案第七案陸軍司令部第一目向下物品預算凍結3000萬元案第八案陸軍司令部第五目向下無人機反制"},{"start":2249.322,"end":2265.759,"text":"系统预算冻结四千万元案第九案陆军司令部第五目向下新型步枪预算冻结三千八百万元案第十案海军司令部第四目向下业务费预算冻结八千万元案第十一案海军司令部第五目向下长展潜射重型鱼雷预算冻结一亿元案第十二案"},{"start":2266.42,"end":2282.419,"text":"海軍司令部第八目第二節向下左營蘇澳及基隆地區興建至救火堵漏訓場預算凍結一千萬元案第十三案空軍司令部第四目向下軍事裝備設施養護費預算凍結三千萬元案第十四案軍備局第十一目向下"},{"start":2283.039,"end":2307.267,"text":"公立電子設平產業應用發展計畫預算凍結一千萬元案第四五案軍備局第十一目向下戰場全身行動力外骨骼系統開發預算凍結一千萬元案第十六案軍醫局第一目向下委辦費預算凍結五百八十萬元案第十七案陸軍司令部第三目向下軍事裝備及設施預算凍結五百萬元案第十八案陸軍司令部第四目向下"},{"start":2309.219,"end":2324.457,"text":"軍事裝備設施養物費預算凍結一千萬元案第十九案空軍司令部第五幕向下遙控無人機防禦系統預算凍結百分之十案第二十案全民防衛動員署第三幕向下雜項設備費預算凍結五百萬元案第二十一案陸軍司令部"},{"start":2325.678,"end":2348.038,"text":"第五目向下陸軍作戰資源服務系統建置案預算凍結10萬元案第二十二案陸軍司令部第八目第二節向下花防部復興營區訓練場新建工程案預算凍結500萬元案第二十三案海軍司令部第四目向下設施及機械設備養護費預算凍結1000萬元案第二十四案海軍司令部第五目向下採購及外購軍品住業費預算凍結"},{"start":2350.16,"end":2370.692,"text":"五百萬元案三處理院會交付一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議外交部主管第一項新增決議括弧一預算凍結案密四處理院會交付一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議僑務委員會主管第六目向下擴大培育及流用僑生預算凍結三百萬元案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2375.936,"end":2401.141,"text":"好 那因為今天這個報告事項裡面有113年度的 也有114年度的所以我們先處理113年度的所以這個先看大家報告事項二這個113年度中央政府總預算國防部的主管預算凍結案中有提出書面報告使得凍值等5案應該都是跟無人機相關的那這個書面報告已送交本會 請問各位委員對於預算解凍有無異議"},{"start":2405.282,"end":2408.634,"text":"沒有好 那我們這五案 請同意動之提報院會"},{"start":2410.812,"end":2432.632,"text":"接下來我們處理報告事項3這邊是114年處理114年度中央政府總預算案國防部主管預算凍結案中是要提出書面報告時得凍資這個部分114年度現在還有這個11案剛剛已經宣讀了那現在這個書面報告已送交本會請問各位委員對預算解凍有無異議"},{"start":2433.567,"end":2449.984,"text":"沒有沒有好那我們這個部分114年的這個部分也均統一動之提報院會好那我們現在呢因為這個我們討論事項我們今天討論事項也是項目比較多所以兩天一次會裡面包含這一個國防部的也包含外交部的還有僑委會的幾項凍結預算"},{"start":2452.806,"end":2476.77,"text":"所以我們想說現在已經這個其實五月就應該結束了我們現在已經延會一個月了那我們現在還是在處理跟這個凍結相關的所以是希望各部會盡快的把這些凍結趕快提上來所以我們現在案子會比較多一點那我們現在就請各部會機關就這些主管預算解凍案進行報告那我們首先先請國防部顧部長上台報告"},{"start":2486.385,"end":2496.354,"text":"主席、各位委員先進感謝各位委員對國防事務的關心與支持,再次表達誠摯謝意本次辦理解凍報告事項16案,討論事項24案,含專案報告2案,合計40案"},{"start":2500.051,"end":2522.378,"text":"新台幣五億六千六百九十五萬元針對委員所關切個案執行狀況檢討以精進作為等項本部均與派員溝通說明個案凍結預算均為本部施任所必須請各位委員鼎力支持預算解凍,被使各項國防司政及監禁規劃順利推行接下去由中科院院長李思強中將針對"},{"start":2524.099,"end":2526.003,"text":"中匯民雄航太及無人機產業園區開發建設計畫實施專案報告謝謝"},{"start":2538.103,"end":2542.487,"text":"中科院民雄航太及無人機產業園區開發建設計畫專案報告。感興委員會委員與審議預算審議期間對於本案的指導,以下緊究本案的規劃與執行,國內自治與市場評估,與未來營運組織機關等委員觀測項目進行報告說明。"},{"start":2556.079,"end":2573.017,"text":"規劃與執行112年8月10日行政院會議指示以中科院嘉義民雄54公頃土地來進行整體規劃開發東側基地以中科院使用為主西側基地規劃為航太暨無人機產業園區招商扶植無人機廠商進駐其在嘉義完整建構研發製造與測試驗證之無人機產業聚落"},{"start":2576.681,"end":2595.414,"text":"無人機研發驗證園區也就是民雄東側基地部分中科院為支持航太機無人機產業發展整合既有無人機科研能量與民雄東側基地建置無人機研發驗證園區提供無人機軍民通用規格及技術驗證AI數位暖身模擬並執行地面研發測試、飛行測試、特殊專業檢測技術服務以加速軍民用無人機研製執程"},{"start":2601.077,"end":2608.821,"text":"東測基地面積25.14公頃,採分期分階段執行第一期開發5.12公頃,由中科院投資營運資金11.1億,已於112年12月舉行凍土典禮將新建園區基礎設施、無人機研發測試廠棚及研發大樓各移動工程預於114年12月完工,115年3月啟用航太暨無人機產業園區,也就是民雄西測基地部分"},{"start":2627.111,"end":2650.245,"text":"借鉴我国科学园区成功开发经验于民雄西侧基地招商扶持无人机系统、航太精密加工、光电、通信导航、动力与电力等关键零组件厂商带动产业进驻形成聚落规划目标自114至117年执行民雄航太及无人机产业园区开发建设计划开发面积约20公顷,开发经费68.59亿元"},{"start":2651.926,"end":2671.957,"text":"行政院113年8月23日核定由公共建設預算指引開發規劃包含園區基礎工程滿足快速進駐投產之模塊化標準廠房以及系統組裝廠棚客製化的建廠用地及飛行測試場等設施其中114年將執行專案工程管理技術服務案PCM的設計規劃"},{"start":2673.838,"end":2683.166,"text":"環境影響評估園區管理法規定定以及產業調查作業115年完成環評啟動園區興建工程與招商116年持續園區興建工程及招商作業逾117年陸續完工啟用"},{"start":2689.031,"end":2706.466,"text":"執行現況本案今年推動PCM等工作辦況說明如下PCM專案設計規劃依照政府採購法公告招標後在113年12月25日決標由中興工程顧問公司及華新聯合建築師事務所共同承攬並結合台灣經濟研究院等專業團隊共同執行產業調查與招商作業114年並委託台灣經濟研究院"},{"start":2714.677,"end":2741.702,"text":"進行廠商進駐醫院調查即回收170份有效問卷其中有醫院進駐園區廠商共有72家以標準廠房的需求最高作為產品研發與測試驗證使用中科院為鼓勵加速廠商進駐將持續辦理開發說明會與招商活動以確保規劃符合產業需求及後續廠商進駐園區服務未來提供園區完整生活機能設施及軟硬體服務包含雲端"},{"start":2742.282,"end":2762.058,"text":"物流超商金融服務並爭取融資低利優惠國內自製與市場評估國內自製率分析從客面無人機發展除機敏組件火工與加密等技術外接濟轉扶植國內無人機產業自製建立完整上下游工領域其中小型及公級型無人機國產化達到百分之百"},{"start":2762.839,"end":2790.391,"text":"大型无人机自治率几达80%未来将可依据政府无人机政策快速引导福祉具备上述能力的厂商进驻航太机无人机产业园区形成产业聚落市场评估市场需求部分依据President Research机构的预测报告全球商用无人机市场将由2024年的603亿美元大幅成长至2029年的3145亿美元成长幅度达到521%"},{"start":2792.915,"end":2822.575,"text":"俄乌战争无人机的使用,在2022年2月俄乌战争爆发,战争初期无人机主要用于侦察与监视任务,提供战场的及时讯息,协助指挥官战术决策,双方每月损耗约几千架,随战事发展扩展至攻击任务,目前双方无人机作战应用每月损耗近20万架,充分发挥不对称作战的巨大效益。产学合作因应产业技术扎根需要,中科院已经先后与台湾大学、中正大学,"},{"start":2823.535,"end":2843.649,"text":"雲林及湖北科技大學等四校簽訂策略聯盟,並就無人機產業園區人才培育、營運管理、清電綠能以及數位孪生等議題合作,未來參與相關學研計畫及專題合作項目之研究生,將成為園區廠商人才優先研訓對象,其實產學研有效結合,發揮最大效益。"},{"start":2844.824,"end":2861.428,"text":"未來營運組織機關人工智慧快速發展為無人載具與自主系統包括自主定位、自主移動和安全避碰等技術領域在空中、陸地、水上、水下甚至太空等自主系統價值鏈創造無限可能但也存在機會與風險挑戰嘉義民雄的無人機產業園區計畫"},{"start":2864.989,"end":2891.168,"text":"是全世界第一個將技術研究與開發平台配件與材料人工智慧與監管資源基礎設施和營運以及無人載具涉及的國家安全以地理集中形成生態系來創造成本與技術優勢的創新概念期盼讓無人載具產業透過中央主導與地方配合推動人才培育和發展去紅供應鏈沒有典範可以複製依循但可以藉由公共政策的理性討論讓預算有效運用"},{"start":2893.189,"end":2906.246,"text":"在無人載具領域中科院是國內唯一擁有完整ODM和OEM經驗的單位由中科院擔任火車頭角色推動可以帶領產業聚落快速成型是最有成功公算的選擇且無人機園區設立也是國內廠商引頸期盼的重大開發計畫"},{"start":2909.85,"end":2924.623,"text":"台灣從加工出口區到科學園區讓我們的經濟發展屢創奇蹟這是前人的智慧心血與全民的打拼如今結合AI與無人載具芳心慧愛的科技與市場趨勢我們願意和政府各部門與業界共同努力"},{"start":2925.864,"end":2941.792,"text":"來創造下一個未來產業沒有時間等待中科院必須承擔此責任戰戰兢兢 負重前行至於未來的營運管理但願在公共政策的理性思辨中在建設時間的過程裡面我們在117年試運行後能凝聚出最大的公約數"},{"start":2944.378,"end":2967.228,"text":"為順利達成民雄航太基文基產業園區開發建設計畫任務執行本院後續將妥善規劃運用資源發揮預算最大效益懇請大學院持續給予指導與支持同意凍結預算動資 必立任務順利推動報告完畢 敬請指導好 謝謝 接著請外交部吳政務次長上台報告"},{"start":2976.516,"end":2998.181,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位女士、各位先生、大家好承蒙大院外交及國防委員會安排本部主管一四年度預算凍結項目進行解凍今日列入議程既有討論四項議案機密預算"},{"start":3001.141,"end":3018.186,"text":"本部以研擬書面報告含送大院債案請強付表此部分已納入大院議案關需文書敬請各位委員參閱鑒於政府資源有限本部一向秉持尊潔原則"},{"start":3020.275,"end":3037.349,"text":"實時編列相關預算為持續推動各項重要外交事務敬請各位委員以本長期以來對外交工作之關注與支持對本部需敦促與鼓勵並同意解除上失誤預算解凍案以利本部業務之順利推動謝謝"},{"start":3042.738,"end":3053.006,"text":"因為外交部這個是在討論事項三是機密所以如果待會如果這個有需要討論的話可能就要開機密會議那接著我們請喬委會這個學委員長上台報告"},{"start":3068.976,"end":3095.662,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好非常感謝大院外交國防委員會特別安排本會主管114年度預算凍結項目進行解凍報告承蒙各位委員先進對本會各項業務的支持與指導在此僅致最誠摯的敬意與謝意本日列入討論的事項有疑案三百萬元書面報告已送交大院在案詳件複表擴大培育及流用僑生的工作系配合我國及"},{"start":3096.502,"end":3100.649,"text":"我國人口以及移民政策來推動氣需相關經費支持學生完成學業並留台發展必應應應國家的產業需求補充我國專業技術及中階技術人口的缺口"},{"start":3112.13,"end":3133.841,"text":"人才的缺口至委員前所關切的各項議題本會均積極審慎的脫除納入執行規劃為培育企業所需人才後持國家發展力量敬請各位委員一本長期以來對僑務工作的關注與支持對本會持續指導與鼓勵並同意解除上述解凍案以利本會業務順利推動感謝大家"},{"start":3137.27,"end":3156.161,"text":"好那我們現在開始詢答我們本會委員4加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘那反正大家討論事項大家可以暢所欲言然後那10點半發言登記截止那如果有臨時提案請在10點半以前提出大概11點左右處理那我們現在請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":3169.582,"end":3195.624,"text":"顧部長是 陳委員部長您好因為時間很緊湊而且今天探討國際情勢的議題也是非常聳動這個週末以來全世界關注的就是美國跟以色列對伊朗核能設施的攻擊"},{"start":3196.872,"end":3207.683,"text":"那麼我想部長在這個事件中間從你宏觀的角度認為哪些可以作為我們國防精進的建言您個人有何看法"},{"start":3209.345,"end":3237.908,"text":"我想如果說就這一次相關的以色列跟伊朗的這樣的一個行動還有美國這樣的一個行動我們應該可以看出來還是有很多的戰術戰法然後還有相關的棲底的這些作為都可以作為我們借鏡的地方所以我們今天做這個表特別把它針對性的目標方法手段以及目前現階段看的戰果階段性的結果"},{"start":3239.105,"end":3255.428,"text":"當前美國是說這個伊朗跟以色列都願意進行的停火協議但是呢雙方仍然有報復性或反制性的作為這個過程呢還是在向前推進但真正的國際風險是不是就此解除了"},{"start":3256.129,"end":3269.344,"text":"我們還要觀察我下面用一個方法論提供這個部裡面同仁做參考因為單一的動次像次我們在兵推過程中間並不是由一般性的人員就是分組討論就產生的一個結果"},{"start":3271.326,"end":3292.392,"text":"所以我們要運用方法論你必須從八個面向主觀客觀微觀宏觀樂觀悲觀前瞻反思再配合國際情勢是單方的雙方的長期的短期的有沒有武裝衝突法戰爭法有沒有碰到天災這些因素產生對每一個動詞裡面我們少則可以產生32個參考因素"},{"start":3294.485,"end":3317.86,"text":"那麼再去探討目的方法手段這是一種工具論方法論這個東西現在已經結合進入了AI的系統了所以我建議以後的兵推不是只是分組炒論寫出一個綜合意見要用方法論的分析這個可以提供大家一個節約時間短期內就得到一個比較可靠的參考案而不是最佳方案"},{"start":3318.663,"end":3334.971,"text":"那么另外一个就是部长您也强调我们现在一直在强调共同图像那在这一次里面呢我们把国际的图像套叠对于美国已经公布的事件的时间配合他的飞行路径我们也做过模拟"},{"start":3335.771,"end":3356.43,"text":"在这种情况下所有被攻击的目标目前并不了解真正战损的状况因为这个都要事后才公布但是每一个精准的位置不是示意图我们都透过GIS卫星照片公开的情资做交叉比对就可以看出它的一些状况效果"},{"start":3357.304,"end":3378.141,"text":"那么现在这个中东的这个航行时间有关民航机全部扰到连以色列的航线都暂停所以证明这个风险还是仍然存在那至于没有共同图像我们很难对跨部会讨论国际事件产生一个共识所以我建议共同图像"},{"start":3378.962,"end":3399.932,"text":"國防部有方法論也有機構但是你最後展示出來圖像要用套疊要用不同的國際圖空圖海圖航圖路圖衛照圖分析結果套疊上去可以產生一個比較客觀的參考圖像那最後就是談到這個波斯灣跟這個赫姆斯海峽"},{"start":3401.377,"end":3417.191,"text":"那我今天早晨這是23號的當時海峽的商船動態還有民航機那麼今天早上7點半我再把海峽的船跟民航機的動次套疊上去因為這是動態的是Flyray的24如果"},{"start":3418.5,"end":3435.787,"text":"研究單位有這個東西的話是可以隨時提供長官因為從民航機的改變航向恢復恢復的航向可以判斷情勢是否已經緩和那另外一個就是有關這個荷姆茲海峽實際上它海峽是進口出口航線是非常的這個狹窄"},{"start":3437.088,"end":3453.741,"text":"那当初伊朗说关闭荷姆斯海峡不只对他自己也是经济的冲击他最主要是摆个姿态对美国讲我把你在巴林的第五舰队封锁了你出不来他有很多的政治意涵那实际上现在还没有封锁"},{"start":3454.381,"end":3482.123,"text":"那这个就是说他特别因为他跟巴林他跟卡达是这个友好邦交所以他通知卡达我要打这个中央军指挥部的中央指挥部的那个机场事先通知了也就撤离了14枚飞弹拦截了13枚另外一枚也没有造成损伤但这些东西呢都工具工情跟卫照做比对那最后一个就是英国的政府在24号公布了国家安全"},{"start":3483.204,"end":3511.599,"text":"戰略裡面在21節提到台灣有4點講到台海南海問題了我相信這個東西我們的部內同仁趕快把它研讀我也建議我們國防部外交部在國安團隊裡面建議我們的政府國家安全戰略必須有公開版當然有機密版這個讓全民有一個共識了解哪些地方我要努力哪些地方要有精進哪些地方在時間人力預算上都有限"},{"start":3512.219,"end":3528.092,"text":"不過要用最佳方案來判斷同樣川普2.0的國安戰略以及他的印太戰略我們在等待他出來這裡面對台灣他會講到什麼這個我們要做預應不是做反應這個請部長您做一點指導是"},{"start":3529.513,"end":3553.102,"text":"我想關於整個印太戰略,迄今為止我們可以看到相關包括美國國防部長在內的說明,他們應該還是要長期來看還是要將整個資源投注在印太地區,印太地區的和平穩定仍然是全球所關注的焦點,而且也是美國的核心利益"},{"start":3553.743,"end":3565.104,"text":"所以他們要以嚇阻來維持台海地區甚至整個印太地區的和平穩定我想這是他們現在的一個基本戰略"},{"start":3566.683,"end":3593.075,"text":"好 謝謝 我這邊也請梁二次長協助其他的聯參或是學校單位尤其是學校 很多的圖啊 教材還是舊的希望把共同圖像的觀念導入國防大學 更新教材這個大家來努力 好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員執教好 謝謝陳佑光委員 部長請回接下來我們有請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3599.144,"end":3602.17,"text":"謝謝主席 有請郭部長好 謝謝有請部長是 羅瑋"},{"start":3609.605,"end":3613.687,"text":"這個以色列跟伊朗兩國之戰歷經了12天在美國轟炸了伊朗的三處地下核設施之後川普在昨天早上宣布以色列跟伊朗已經達成停火的協議目前我們看起來兩國還是處在劍拔弩撞的狀態"},{"start":3636.556,"end":3651.114,"text":"那後續還是不可測那這次的這個以疫的這個戰爭呢那其實全世界都在看這個川普的這個態度那上禮拜其實我有質詢外交部那時候川普還沒有出手那時候我們在考慮說川普到底會不會呢"},{"start":3653.617,"end":3677.575,"text":"采取这个军事行动结果呢那个魁位45年之后呢这个美国美军呢对伊朗采取了这个军事的这个行动那当然刚刚部长也有回应我们陈永康也有提到就是说其实这一次美国的这个出手其实某种程度上面呢其实也是一种宣示对于这个印太地区"},{"start":3678.155,"end":3691.792,"text":"的這個和平你只要說損害到美國的利益損害到美國的這個安全的話其實他還是會出兵那早期我們有聽到就說那個川普在上任的時候其實很多人有提出了所謂的這個以美論認為說像這川普他是採取這個美國優先"},{"start":3696.958,"end":3709.993,"text":"那也有人提到說如果說台灣受到這個攻擊的話其實美國不會管你那經過這一次之後呢我們國防部的這個評估如果真的台灣有事的話美國會不會出手來協助呢請問部長您認為呢"},{"start":3711.835,"end":3736.632,"text":"有沒有機會?以伊的這個衝突那麼所代表的這個意涵我們還有它對於美國來看怎麼看這個以伊的衝突這件事情我想我們都會密切的關注那這其中我特別提出來就是說伊朗的龍梭又接近這個武器的等級對美國來講它似乎顯示是"},{"start":3738.84,"end":3766.554,"text":"就也許內部有不同的這個討論政變但最後對他來講他伊朗擁有這個接近核武等級的這樣的一個榮辱是還是他所不能夠容忍的所以他一旦決定不能夠容忍也就是觸及到他的核心利益的時候他當然會採取這個出手的動作但我想在這個出手的動作的這個之後呢美國還是希望他們"},{"start":3768.742,"end":3793.115,"text":"維持住他們的核心利益的同時當然還是區域的和平穩定還是他們所目前所希望最能夠期待在中東地區所能希望能夠達到這樣子是 那當然我們也看得出來像美國這一次是有異於過去像過去的話美國介入這個中東的戰爭其實都會深陷泥沼那這次很明顯地看出他們目標就是要摧毀這個核設施那對於這個政權的這個"},{"start":3797.137,"end":3816.749,"text":"這個轉換他這個部分的話他們是沒有想要介入所以他這個目標是非常的清楚假如你損害到我們美國的這個利益的話我一定會出手會有這種狀況所以之前我們認為說像在印太地區的話你會認為說在怎麼樣一個狀態會抵觸到美國的利益侵害到美國的利益美國才會"},{"start":3817.569,"end":3832.01,"text":"像介入這次的戰爭的這個手法來處理如果萬一像台灣如果說他認為台灣的這個失守可能會造成第一島鏈的失守那美國的話他也會不會說來做介入呢"},{"start":3832.811,"end":3851.499,"text":"會不會有類似的狀況美國迄今的這個我想印太的戰略最核心的一個目標當然還是在於防止印太地區當然重點在台海地區當然也包括南海或者甚至東海等等沒有任何的戰事能夠發生所以防堵"},{"start":3852.359,"end":3871.668,"text":"或防組或以來戰這個戰事的發生還是他最優先的一個戰略目標那他的優先的戰略目標要如何達成迄今為止他很明顯就是以嚇阻的方式來制定也就是說以實力才能夠帶來和平這個我想是他到現在為止所展現的一個"},{"start":3875.863,"end":3892.422,"text":"最在這個地方展現的說美國的核心利益在什麼地方那以實力帶來和平或者是以嚇阻的話那這個不單是說他我們當然要強強自我防衛能力也就是說我們成為嚇阻的一環那同時呢也"},{"start":3892.922,"end":3918.036,"text":"代表著譬如說在第一島鏈的這個國家都要以集體協同的方式來產生一個嚇阻的力量所以我們可以看得到對日本來講他已經有前進部署美國對菲律賓來講也對於在美軍的基地也部署了相關的這個反制的武器那對美國來講他也進行了可以展現了他可以立即這個前進部署到這個"},{"start":3920.683,"end":3935.019,"text":"中國當然要實施這個所謂的區域拒止的時候,他們可以突破讓中國在公台的計算上面變得非常非常的複雜所以以這樣的方式來嚇阻中國採取任何冒進的行動"},{"start":3936.32,"end":3951.307,"text":"所以這次其實也是類似一種秀肌肉的一個方式你不要輕舉妄動你輕舉妄動其實美軍都還是會拿出他的手段來處理我們看得出來是說他不單純是秀肌肉他是真正的"},{"start":3951.587,"end":3974.464,"text":"真正會這麼做真正的會維護這個整個他的核心利益是是在必要的情況之下對 剛剛部長剛才講得很好就是說那我們在我們自己本身一定要持續強化我們自身的這個防衛的這個能力來讓大家覺得說其實台灣其實也沒有那麼輕易的可以受到欺負這一點我想一個很重要那當然我們也看出說像"},{"start":3975.285,"end":3998.882,"text":"美國最近我們也看得到他跟菲律賓之間他跟韓國之間其實他們有很多的戰事的這個演習其實種種跡象也看得出來就是說美國絕對會非常的重視亞太地區的這個安全那該行動的時候他還是會行動是這樣子吧我想我還是講就是說他認為他要展現的不單是"},{"start":4002.229,"end":4021.087,"text":"單純的所謂秀他的技術而已從這次以疫戰爭帶來的就是說當美國需要捍衛他的核心利益的時候他確實要確保他的核心利益不能夠喪失印太的和平穩定完完全全是美國的核心利益謝謝 以上謝謝謝謝羅委員 部長請回"},{"start":4029.784,"end":4054.093,"text":"接下來我們就請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 有請顧部長有請部長好 部長早"},{"start":4056.65,"end":4071.277,"text":"部長,針對近日這個中東情勢的一個升溫,那一一的這個衝突的局勢也是持續在變化當中,那昨天看起來應該是會走向這個簽訂和平這個停火協議的這個方向"},{"start":4073.258,"end":4093.647,"text":"我們也看到我們賴總統日前特別指示要針對中東的情勢和中共雙航母的行動強化來監控也看到上週共軍在藉由海空聯合戰備警巡派出比以往更多的戰機還有共艦在台灣的周邊進行騷擾"},{"start":4098.709,"end":4114.271,"text":"那我想就叫我們部長,對於這方面我們掌握跟判斷中共在以疫衝突發生之後,是不是會藉由這個國際的一個焦點轉移到中東,來增加侵擾我們台灣的這個行為?"},{"start":4116.333,"end":4136.68,"text":"我們看到雙航母的這個行動當然首次跨越第一島鏈接近到第二島鏈來進行這個當然是我們要密切來關注的那從時序上來看的話呢它在這個回航的時候來進行海空聯訊這本來也是在我們密切註收的範圍之內但從時序上來講的話呢美國的這個"},{"start":4142.422,"end":4167.708,"text":"行動是在6月22號來進行所以我們密切的關注在6月22號之後共軍的行動有沒有在台海地區或者印太地區有增加的趨勢到現在為止根據我們所密註的結果並還沒有出現異常的狀況據我們了解相關的航艦都已經應該回到它該有的位置上面去"},{"start":4169.518,"end":4188.514,"text":"部長,包括近期美軍部署的調動,全球關注的部分已經焦點轉移到中東,我們對於這個情勢來看,會不會增加我們區域的風險?國防部對於後續的因應措施會是怎麼樣?"},{"start":4190.703,"end":4215.333,"text":"我們的作為就是說我們會運用各種聯合情建的手段那另外我們跟有盟國家也不斷的在交換這樣的一個情誌所以大家都密切的在關注這樣子的一個在中東地區的區域衝突會不會讓這個中國來有一個任何挑釁的一個作為那所以我們所做的就是說"},{"start":4217.093,"end":4230.679,"text":"對於這個對台威脅的重要的預警的徵喉我們就透過我們的相關的手段還有跟我們國家的一個聯合資訊的一個交換來密切整個掌握整個印太地區的一個動態"},{"start":4233.311,"end":4248.14,"text":"一年一度的這個漢光實兵演練,我們將在這個兩週後的7月9號要登場那這一次會拉長時間10天9夜對於這個先前了解到的部分,我們納入包括這個徽帶應儲的這個演練"},{"start":4249.901,"end":4273.781,"text":"也提升後備教召的規模,還有軍民整合協調等這個做法那也接續前面所討論的部分,近期包括這個儀儀衝突的這個變動那印太地區的警戒同步的提升,那我想請教部長會不會因應這個區域局勢的變化之後,再調整漢光演習的這個強度,還有他的規劃的內容"},{"start":4275.582,"end":4296.88,"text":"我們現在從去年的五天四夜現在改成是十天九夜那其中最大的部分就是說我們向前延伸到這個灰色地帶的一個洗澡所以灰色地帶的洗澡我們想定的狀況就會根據這個區域的情勢來做一些推演那推演到說它"},{"start":4298.301,"end":4321.892,"text":"我們這都有一種想定,跟各位報告,這種想定,想定是說他升高這個灰色地下的洗澡,然後到達了一定的強度之後呢,我們要除了從事立即備戰操演之外,我們還要加強二級、一級戒備,到這樣子。那最後再看他整個的一個行動,做一個模擬之後呢,然後再發布各種的輔助狀況,然後讓所有的各級的部隊來演練這樣子。"},{"start":4325.534,"end":4345.107,"text":"這個十天九夜會一直延續到最後的國土防衛作戰的一個重視防禦的演練所以整個的想定是拉了相當的長這一次那我們去年這個漢光40號所採取的是本島實兵不實彈"},{"start":4346.388,"end":4374.449,"text":"那外導是實兵實彈的做法當時這個國防部應該是因為這個無劇本的這個實戰化的變革考量到安全餘力的所做的安排但是在去年演習所獲得的這個經驗並且考量敵情的情況之下那我想請教部長就是當時的這個所謂全員全裝還有部分實彈的這個模式相較於"},{"start":4375.329,"end":4387.586,"text":"去年有沒有差別那在考量安全的這個條件下我們是否有評估過本島也納入實彈訓練的可能性或是再增加相關的這個實彈的訓練有沒有可能"},{"start":4390.031,"end":4413.449,"text":"在本島的部分我們依照實戰化訓練要求還是採時兵時地時時裝但是我們要求是說在責任地境要務實的演練但是要進行實彈的射擊我們考量到這個安全的維護以及對民眾的影響所以我們現在還是只有在外離島地區來進行這一個實彈的射擊"},{"start":4416.667,"end":4439.313,"text":"好,那我們這次這個演習,我們國防部去年公告過了我們軍民條例的配套法規,規定這個民眾不得在隨意的拍攝我們這個漢光演習但是接下來這兩個演習會結合在一起,可能會更容易出現在大眾的一個視野當中"},{"start":4440.333,"end":4455.662,"text":"那橫左考量到這個情報價值還有居民合作的因素在什麼樣的情況下是可以拍攝什麼樣的情況下是不可以拍攝我們是不是有一個明確的一個指引我是不是請法律師來跟委員說明好市長"},{"start":4460.417,"end":4485.556,"text":"我跟委員報告其實我們軍事營區安全條例通過了以後對於軍事營區它是有定義的所以我在想委員可能是關心說如果演習的部隊在外面在運動的時候民眾可不可以拍攝這個是沒有問題的這個不會受到相關的規範如果說有納入演習的相關的區域我們會對外面去做公告有一些禁止的行為我們也會對外面說明"},{"start":4487.197,"end":4502.742,"text":"希望這個部份我們指引的方向可以明確一點什麼可以拍攝什麼不可以拍攝這個部份也希望說有一個文字的一個我們如果特別的禁止禁止的一些相關的規範的話我們會做一些明確的一些公示"},{"start":4504.483,"end":4531.997,"text":"那這個區域局勢的變化相當的迅速那再請我們國防部及時的掌握相關的一個這個動態並且針對下個月我們這個漢光實兵的訓練規劃如何整合這個居民的協調以及協助民眾配合的部分能夠進一步向國人來說明那也希望能夠兼顧我們演習的目標同時提高民眾對我們國防的一個信心"},{"start":4532.597,"end":4557.484,"text":"好 以上是 居民的協同是我們也是研練的重點項目之一好 謝謝部長 謝謝市長謝謝居民委員 部長請回接下來我們請王定宇委員上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩顧部長委員部長"},{"start":4566.074,"end":4585.214,"text":"部長我先請教一個問題在媒體報導說2023年美國無償軍援台灣八萬套的戰鬥各裝一千艇的排用機槍數量或許有不對但這些東西是不是已經到我們的庫房裡面了我們其實"},{"start":4587.424,"end":4610.242,"text":"我應該這麼說這個PTA的部分不是只有不只這個啦不只只有這個也不是只有一次所以它陸續對我的意思是說我今天先抓這個單項就是說國軍的戰鬥各裝當然我們後勤微補有它的一致性如果八國聯軍混雜的這個不一樣的話當然不太好但我們如果對照另外一個數據我們軍備局205場要生產T-75的班用的機槍"},{"start":4618.254,"end":4623.761,"text":"我這數字如果錯的話請隨時更正我我原來2023年要交裝400艇2024年要交裝60艇現在這460艇還沒有交對不對在6月底之前會"},{"start":4629.81,"end":4652.67,"text":"跟委員報告因為上次該委員會跟委員報告了在今年的6月30日會交裝給陸軍交裝哪個年份的就是交裝之前委員講的因為我們就是因為之前的貨料就是因為沒有其實你們常常保證我還不好意思問你那個狙擊槍你們狙擊槍也是在6月30清狙嘛"},{"start":4653.812,"end":4672.994,"text":"那重居呢重居也是在今年的重居是89艇的話是在今年年底沒有要改對外採購嗎這個的話目前的話軍種的需求是為之給我們的偶後要對外採購我們都是回到這裡就是說我們現在搬用機槍其實膠裝當然有因為種種理由慢了"},{"start":4674.235,"end":4695.063,"text":"我們都不能假設明天會發生什麼事情所以當然戰備辛苦我們都希望我們的兵工相關的能夠越快按照如期如質來完成就好我把這兩個數據對起來看就是說如果美軍有無償提供給我們戰鬥各裝有給我們排用機槍然後我們國軍的扳用機槍的膠裝有延遲美軍的裝備是他們的現役裝備的話"},{"start":4701.451,"end":4726.199,"text":"我們有沒有思考我曾經在私底下跟幾位戰友在聊我們某一些陸軍單位可以把它改採成全美軍的裝備因為我們現在每年有兩個營到美國受訓嘛那到美國受訓我們裝備沒帶著去那邊是用人家的裝備我甚至於建議我們應該比照空軍陸軍的陸威應該也在那邊設置一個辦公室把參山的工作由那邊來執行來減低我們受訓部隊的負擔"},{"start":4730.02,"end":4758.449,"text":"那我上去美團的時候我們應該有提出這樣的需求那美方有沒有答應這事待會可以回答我的意思是說如果有這樣的排用機槍有這樣的戰鬥客裝在台灣我們為什麼不把它發給我們現役部隊我想這個他給的這個排用機槍的因為您特別是提到排用機槍的部分嘛我們再接續再獲付更多的這個排用機槍之後我們會發下去"},{"start":4759.489,"end":4775.68,"text":"會發下去嗎會那你變成是要集結到一個量才把它配下去是而不是說我現在分批逐批逐批把它替換這樣等到集結到一個量再發下去跟我現在手上一千挺我就按照計畫下去等到整批再下去的好處在哪裡"},{"start":4778.333,"end":4798.959,"text":"我想因為相關的這些排用機槍的這個部分我們認為跟其他的這個收到的這個在後續的PDA的部分我們一起就是有一個按照相關的這個他們所應該厚厚的裝備一起發下去來使用這樣所以這個後續會往下發會"},{"start":4800.94,"end":4815.395,"text":"因為部長你原來在國安會啦我請教一下就是說我們現在每年兩個營甚至於去年吧有副旅長帶著接近一個旅的單位去美國進行相關的訓練"},{"start":4816.84,"end":4838.861,"text":"我們有沒有考慮在美國設置一個類似我們以前在陸克後來現在在土生的就一個專案辦公室來協助我們陸軍的單位去那邊授訓相關的這個專案的計畫啦相關的作業我們有沒有計畫讓陸軍固定聯兵營到美國授訓把它真的變成一個常態化"},{"start":4840.353,"end":4867.562,"text":"目前有沒有這樣的計畫我們現在我想到美國參加訓練的部分這個可能不太適宜來公開做太多的說明但我們會不斷的擴大這個相關的規模那有關這個委員所指教的部分也許我們私下再跟委員做個說明就是說這個不方便在這邊講了我尊重啦我的意思是說有一個專案的辦公室在那裡"},{"start":4868.522,"end":4883.639,"text":"去協助我們受訓的官兵過去像我們曾經有單位去要花了六七八天才集結到嘛 分很多批的航班所以這些專案的工作其實如果讓現有單位的參山啊各方面去負責的話 那個優量會太重"},{"start":4884.139,"end":4902.055,"text":"那如果它是一個常態化的對我們的戰力提升接受現代化的訓練或者有跟友軍合作的計畫如果是常態化的話其實陸軍有一個這樣的辦公室在那邊仿造我們陸客後來土生的方式我個人是建議這樣做但我尊重國防部因為這個是牽涉到"},{"start":4904.157,"end":4927.603,"text":"兩方面不是我們單方面可以做決定啦另外部長我還請教另外一個事情是我們台灣現在有沒有參加北約的那個MISP的這個計畫裡面MISP就是從2013年開始北約啟動一個叫做惡意軟體資訊共享平台目前日本自衛隊參加了"},{"start":4929.523,"end":4949.068,"text":"韓國的部隊也參加了也就是說他們在資通電軍的資訊分享上把惡意軟體透過盟軍之間的共享去分析這個惡意軟體的攻擊模式來源等等我請教說我們台灣我們台灣其實是惡意軟體攻擊受攻擊的世界第一名我們被攻擊的量最大"},{"start":4949.648,"end":4971.738,"text":"我們台灣到目前這2013年開始的我們周邊的鄰國日本韓國都參加這也是北約他開放北約的架構讓其他的盟友可以參加目前台灣有沒有參加MISP這個計畫是不好講還是我們私下跟您報告可以嗎"},{"start":4972.657,"end":4992.992,"text":"好 我尊重 但是我們不參加就不太有道理了格林的日本 韓國 甚至是日本分析它94.5%的供給是來自於境外 那境外它也點出某一家公司就是經過這個平台分析出來 那一個駭客公司就是由中共解放軍負責資助的 好吧點出來"},{"start":4994.256,"end":5023.416,"text":"我們中國最近公布我們自動電軍那個那是他有他的政治意圖那我們透過跟盟友的合作也可以利用這個方式讓中國他做這一種政治意圖反而得到政治上的反效果可能是外交的可能是安全的各方面所以本期來問這個MISP呢我尊重你們這邊不便講但我認為我們我們台灣一定是網路世界不管是被攻擊或防禦的大國"},{"start":5024.336,"end":5047.181,"text":"我們應該透過這個被攻擊的優勢應該多積極跟各方參與部長我不知道你對這個有什麼想法是我們當然會積極的跟北約還有跟所有相關的友盟國家來積極的合作那有關自動電G相關保密的事情我不在這邊問因為私下有些事情可能我們要了解一下我這邊有些訊息那謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝委員好謝謝立委委員部長請回"},{"start":5053.191,"end":5070.008,"text":"喔 是我好 謝謝 接下來進行詢問是沈博洋召委好 謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝來 部長請"},{"start":5077.296,"end":5104.782,"text":"是 沈委員好部長好這個今天因為這一個有這一個好幾個討論事項那無人機的這個我比較沒有什麼意見那這邊有這個就是國家軍事博物館那因為有好幾位委員其實都有針對這個軍博館提出這個相關的這一個預算的凍結那我先說明一下我們禮拜一有去考察因為我想說既然因為它有很多的事項不管是質詢還是新聞的報導大概是"},{"start":5106.582,"end":5120.834,"text":"很難獲得全貌所以我們特別在禮拜一的時候去考察蠻多的委員的助理也都有出席去到底看一下預算增加的一個狀況我們看到的當然是第一個就是說從早期開始它的預算編列的幾億的增加但我後來發現就是說這一個大部分委員關心的其實並不是那一塊"},{"start":5129.761,"end":5150.448,"text":"他關心的是中間三次這個設計上的一個變更包含這一個機載的一些變更還有抗風結構的一些變更那我們也都看了一些這些變更之處然後請這一個建築師又來說明為何變更那裡面我覺得有提到一點我覺得蠻重要的就是說因為我看這個新聞報導就一直在講說這個現在這個軍博館"},{"start":5152.929,"end":5168.98,"text":"這個要花了幾億等等之類的然後又變更設計因為廠商中間在做評估的時候有一些失誤所以到最後要變更設計變更設計的時候我們依照工程會定型化的契約就是有一個罰款就是說這個罰款怎麼加起來只有幾百萬"},{"start":5172.142,"end":5186.72,"text":"所以就用這樣的一些比較聳動的標題比如說這是一個幾億的案子然後到最後是幾百萬的罰款我們在當天在看的這個過程當中其實發現就是說因為這其實都是第一個就是罰款並不是針對一開始幾億幾億的增加"},{"start":5188.883,"end":5202.735,"text":"那個本身是行政院在核電的過程還有在疫情的這個整個過程裡面發生了這個不管是原物料的漲價或者說這個本來是要幾層變成幾層這樣的一個情勢所以最主要罰款的部分就是剛剛提到的不管是機載還有這個抗風結構的這個變更設計那現場看了之後我就發現變更設計它所增加的金額其實是幾千萬"},{"start":5214.524,"end":5235.203,"text":"那這個幾千萬的金額呢我說真的這一個中間其實有流標三次那廠商能夠獲得的金額當然絕對不是幾千萬它是幾千萬的案子不代表廠商獲得幾千萬所以廠商今天到底是獲得了多少的金錢跟他最後處罰了多少金錢那個比例可能才是我們真正需要關心的"},{"start":5235.883,"end":5258.008,"text":"所以我從這一個我想要延伸因為我知道部長應該對這個案子很熟所以我想也可能不要直接說明就是說像這一種不管是質詢的內容還是新聞標題的方式其實常常會有極其誤導之能事就讓別人會覺得說怎麼比例上差那麼多其實根本就不是這樣子來做比較一樣的情形就發生在這幾天關於這一個潛艦海測的狀況然後就有看到什麼艦體變形然後明明是旁邊的那一個被動測驅的那個聲音"},{"start":5265.509,"end":5287.857,"text":"又吐起來那就有很多的粉專開始分享說是不是產生了問題等等之類的我們在整理的過程當中就發現它其實最早是來自於微博的武統工坊這個帳號台灣傻事之前已經參與了這個作戰很多次了但我關心的是6月18號下午5點這個海峽之聲"},{"start":5290.118,"end":5308.864,"text":"為什麼?因為海峽之聲背後的這一個是跟解放軍有關也就是說這個一開始它所操作然後一直到它放大其實解放軍針對我們的海昆號有不實的資訊這個不實的資訊很快的又被台灣的幾個粉專或者說這一個特定的媒體做放大"},{"start":5309.404,"end":5333.238,"text":"這就讓我想到就是我們禮拜一去考察這個狀況就是說他們有時候即使沒有用不實資訊用一些比較誇大的方式來做比較然後就會讓國人誤以為說這邊是不是有弊案不管是在講這個軍博館還是在講這個海昆號的所以目前來講針對這一件事情闢謠的狀況以國安部來講是如何不管是海昆號的部分還是軍博館的部分"},{"start":5334.549,"end":5346.462,"text":"我想就海昆號的部分先說明一下就是說艦體的那個突出的部分是被動側距聲浪的一個護照那麼這個是原廠就本身就採用這個曲面設計屬於這個先進的這個"},{"start":5349.245,"end":5366.996,"text":"整個的雷達系統的一個裝備,國外的潛艦也是有的,包括這個澳洲的柯林斯級,還有英國的維多利亞級的潛艦也都是這樣子的,因為他要用這樣的設計來達到最佳的收音的一個效果,所以並不是如外界所講的說,"},{"start":5373.44,"end":5389.389,"text":"他事實上他的設計就是如此,因為他是在壓力殼的外面,然後能夠達到一個最佳的一個徵收的效果那軍部管的部分呢,我想"},{"start":5390.632,"end":5402.831,"text":"我來了國防部之後,我這邊只是表達我對軍火桿互出很大的一個信心因為軍火桿在國防部的斜對面的這個地方,它事實上在那個地方的"},{"start":5404.605,"end":5423.881,"text":"不是一個緩滑的一個地方,軍博館在行政院的支持之下,增加了這個那個坪數,增加了量體等等。那麼當然這個中間在我來之前有經過三次的這個變更設計,那我們也依照合約,依照相關的合約進行了罰款。"},{"start":5424.802,"end":5436.73,"text":"那現在最重要的部分在我看起來就是說如何讓軍博館成為一個每一個人都願意來了之後再來的一個地方因為你要讓他的這個軍事的裝備的成長是"},{"start":5440.652,"end":5465.162,"text":"看起來是非常具有可觀性的然後另外我們增加非常多的互動式的體驗我已經聽取了好多次報告我們這互動式的體驗我在這裡可以跟各位講就是說我們會希望這樣的會有互動式的體驗是在其他的博物館都看不到的然後你會真正的感受到什麼叫做軍事的博物館我們朝這個方向來努力這樣"},{"start":5466.342,"end":5491.435,"text":"謝謝部長 畢竟我們禮拜一有做了考察所以我剛花了一點時間來做一個說明我覺得這個考察有必要讓國人知道其實很多次的變更設計都是跟安全有關係我知道我們現在在考察的時候發現目前施工進度是超前但是我還是要特別提醒一下畢竟本來的變更設計都是為了安全如果是為了安全 雖然現在進度是超前"},{"start":5491.855,"end":5518.055,"text":"但如果說這一個為了安全起見即使進度稍微落後我覺得國人應該都是能夠接受的我覺得安全一定是第一啦我覺得這是我們第一個蠻重要的一個提醒那第二個就是呢我再稍微講一下就是說海關號這件事情呢就是我們都知道中國一定會做操作那它很明顯的操作就是其實是禮拜三下午三點然後跟五點的海峽直升這兩個大概是最而且它造成非常多數的觀看但台船出來說啊這個聲明說這個有誤已經等到6月19號了"},{"start":5521.698,"end":5546.784,"text":"所以其實對我們來講就是說如果說我們已經知道對方一定會來做這些事情的話某種程度的預判如果能夠是在更早的時候針對這些事情來做辟謠的話我覺得對國人會有幫助那不然的話會等到說又是傍晚然後可能下午新聞出來之後電子媒體出來之後然後大家才知道說原來是一場誤會那這個部分可能再請國防部可能還要再費點心所以我們會來精進來檢討"},{"start":5549.505,"end":5564.595,"text":"好 那因為時間到了我最後本來有一個問題是在講這一個就是剛剛地域委員其實已經問過了這個2060停目前的交貨速度那當然其實裡面還有一個戰鬥服的問題我私底下其實也已經有問過國軍那這個問題我可能等到下一次有機會的時候再來談好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝 請回"},{"start":5578.627,"end":5592.72,"text":"接下來我們有請林楚瑩委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長有請部長"},{"start":5599.406,"end":5603.948,"text":"是林委員好部長早安我要問的是一個就是最近開始因為全民開始關注就是我們在生活周遭不論是校園又或者是像這些軍事要地是不是出現了所謂有中國境外敵對勢力的人員到台灣的內部來做一些拍攝跟攝影那麼我想特別舉兩個例子這是最近的新聞"},{"start":5623.939,"end":5628.801,"text":"就是到底我們是拍攝軍事要塞還是真的只是軍事迷在這個所謂我們的機場或者是軍事營區周遭做一些所謂像飛機迷他們都會在機場旁邊來做拍攝一個是兩個案例一個是淡水的男子在淡水捷運站拍後面的軍營哀告但是因為被檢方認定不是所謂的管制區所以不起訴"},{"start":5650.791,"end":5668.292,"text":"那麼因為當時檢察官在起訴之後認為詢問了陸軍然後說這個不是所謂的軍事要塞地帶所以不起訴了另外一個當然後來被認為是所謂的烏龍那就是在我們的新竹基地"},{"start":5669.485,"end":5685.435,"text":"那認為說是有中共的原因來進行情搜來拍軍機但是當然後來是軍事迷所以其實像現在真的是在我們的周遭比如說像我們海昆號剛剛前面講的你在海策的過程當中那在所以"},{"start":5686.635,"end":5709.524,"text":"測試的過程當中一定會有軍事迷想要到現場去來做拍攝那麼現在到底我們在這樣的狀況底下國軍的營區設備基地跟軍事工程我們到底要如何來做一個保密而民眾到底哪裡是營區哪裡不是而哪裡又應該做劃界線這個部分到底我們依據的法要塞"},{"start":5711.144,"end":5734.413,"text":"寶磊所謂地帶法我先因為時間有限我一起把它質詢完之後再讓部長一起回應好了因為我們的要塞寶磊地帶法其實是很久以前就已經制定完成的而在我要求看到的國軍公告的這個幾個要塞地區管制區其實有陸軍有限制部有海軍但是事實上空軍完全沒有"},{"start":5734.853,"end":5738.076,"text":"言下之意就是我們的軍機場事實上我們有22個軍機場這22個軍機場其實都不是所謂要塞堡壘嗎那麼也就是說其實現在很多熱心民眾如果看到在這些軍機場的周邊他發現有人在那邊做攝影的時候那麼他會PO上比如說網路啊或者是提醒我們立法委員或提醒相關單位但事實上這會不會"},{"start":5759.574,"end":5771.702,"text":"其實根本一般民眾在法律的認知上跟我們現在認知上是有落差的因為沒有任何一個屬於要塞堡壘的軍機場其實如果就剛剛我所提出來這個新聞來看的話其實他們根本沒有違反相關的法規所以我就要問了這個要塞堡壘地帶跟我們現在有修的一個所謂軍事營區重要軍事設施"},{"start":5790.015,"end":5807.555,"text":"另外就是如果軍用的飛機場戰備跑道飛機基地跟軍艦是被列為軍事營區安全維護條例當中的軍事設施那麼軍艦是重要軍事設施但是軍港沒有"},{"start":5807.935,"end":5837.159,"text":"所以本席的意思就是這會變成是我們現在很多在注意國防安全的民眾看到了有人在軍機場周邊攝影或者是在軍港周邊攝影他會做一些提醒跟提示但是是不是就會變成是前面有這樣這樣的一個所謂的烏龍新聞那麼在我們有關於軍事的重要的設施或者是所謂的要塞堡壘這個界定跟界限到底是什麼"},{"start":5838.768,"end":5860.593,"text":"我想我先說明再請法律師做個詳細的說明就是要塞堡壘地帶法它公告的這個處只有22處所以顯然是不足以因應的那本來是有打算要求要塞堡壘地帶法不過現在因為我們有一個軍事營區安全維護條例已經經過立法院三度通過所以我們現在就會主要以軍事營區安全維護條例來"},{"start":5863.074,"end":5884.966,"text":"來作為這個我們相關營區的這個機敏性的維護然後用這條法律然後來施行然後我想詳細的部分是不是請法律師好那我想要請問的比較簡單的就是像現在的這個22處當中完全沒有任何一個空軍基地在其中那麼到底這樣的一個狀況跟"},{"start":5887.668,"end":5903.976,"text":"整體來說因為我在質詢的時候我並沒有說要求一定要放進來或不要放進來但是我覺得透過我們的詢答也可以讓民眾更了解因為熱心民眾會說哇 我這有人在拍攝啊那這個到底是軍事迷在拍攝而軍事迷來講他們對於在拍攝的過程當中有沒有違法他們也擔心他們的興趣被人認為有危害到國家安全那在這個部分會做修正嗎"},{"start":5918.63,"end":5946.026,"text":"是,我跟委員報告,委員剛剛講的沒有錯,因為要塞堡壘地帶要塞堡壘地帶法裡面所規定的要塞22處它都有公告,那現行確實是沒有包含軍機場那如果公布了要塞堡壘地帶的話,那會有很多的限制,也會對百姓的生活造成一些限制所以這是一般很謹慎,那所以說我們才在早些年有推動軍事營區安全維護條例,也非常感謝大院的委員"},{"start":5946.966,"end":5974.434,"text":"這個條例已經都已經通過了那相關的一些法規該預告的該做一些準備的現在也都在積極的這個辦理當中那未來相關的機場機場有單純的軍機場有軍民合用的機場哪一些地區會管制哪一些地區是不用管制這個都會有相關的一些公告然後還有在當地會有一些相關的排斥的一些設置那如果說已經公告的是"},{"start":5975.154,"end":6003.208,"text":"不准進行拍攝或是描繪技術等等的這一些相關的一些行為禁止的話那未來呢在軍事營區安全條例的第22條裡面也有定有相關的罰則舉個例子如果在營區的外面對著營區的裡面他如果有測量錄影攝影描繪等等的這些偵查的行為然後足身影響軍事營區安全的話那他會有一些相關的一些罰則"},{"start":6004.128,"end":6019.335,"text":"所以就是在營區外面朝營區裡面拍他還是會有罰則的但是會有一個認定的過程對不對主要就是說舉個例子啦就是說他拍這個整個軍機起飛他只是因為軍事迷嘛對著這個軍事這個飛機起飛他來進行拍攝這並不會構成但是他如果特意的"},{"start":6026.338,"end":6031.16,"text":"去拍攝營區內機敏的這個處所的話那從事有一個偵查的行為足以影響到這一個軍事營區的安全的話那就會構成這樣子好 那我也知道剛剛從部長再到我們的這個市長都有提到就是有關於我們軍事營區安全維護法那因為這一個法案"},{"start":6046.127,"end":6048.61,"text":"我在我跟王定宇委員我其實有一起掛共題所以我非常的關注其實這個法規行政我們在一年半以前就已經三讀通過那麼當然在過程當中我知道他必須要溝通然後要去詳細"},{"start":6062.108,"end":6077.975,"text":"所研擬的配套執法是比較多的但是時間還是有點長一點半以前就在112年10月的時候是行政院新有一讀的版本然後立法院是在112年12月18號我們三讀通過然後當時是蔡英文總統在113年的1月3號公告那麼"},{"start":6085.979,"end":6089.281,"text":"如果真的就如同剛剛我們講到的軍事要塞堡壘法相關已經不符合時宜我們要用這個新法的話那我現在就要問經過了一年半那麼到底我們執法也預告期都已經滿了經過十個月了什麼時候要實行"},{"start":6102.549,"end":6125.014,"text":"因為現在面對這樣的有關於重要的軍事設施不論是被攝影或者是純粹只是軍事迷又或者是真的有人要來刺探國家重要的國安情資的時候或是軍事要塞的時候這個法規相對的重要那麼我想請問部長目前包括像行政院這裡或是國防部這裡什麼時候會實施這樣的一個法規那麼"},{"start":6127.995,"end":6138.117,"text":"我們跟學院溝通啦 因為現在他們是行政表聲還有三個執法還要再公告那所以我們預計8月1號預計8月1號是嗎好 那我們也希望當然經過了這麼長超過一年半以上的時間來討論的這個法規不論是法律的施行又或者是執法的配套都能夠務必符合上現在日新月異的徵搜相關的這種科技能夠真的實施就能夠用得上好 謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":6161.859,"end":6172.979,"text":"好 謝謝楚英委員 部長請回接下來有請楊瓊英委員上台質詢楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在接下來有請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":6189.5,"end":6200.495,"text":"您好 我們請部長我們請部長市委 陳委員好不想找喔"},{"start":6201.158,"end":6221.053,"text":"部長上週您用作戰構想涉密沒有辦法公開為由那沒有說明我國無人機或者是無人載具的整體戰略但是我很納悶這個原因在哪裡因為2024年在英國就有直接把他們的整體的無人機戰略在各個不同的平台他們的政府網站來去揭露出來"},{"start":6222.418,"end":6238.046,"text":"我要求的戰略不是請你把一些戰術的細節來去做公佈我要求的戰略是希望說我們在台灣的一些無人機的產業不管是大型的公司或者是中小企業能夠有機會知道我們國家的整體方向"},{"start":6239.008,"end":6257.676,"text":"我必須強調 過去我們講說重塵嚇阻重塵嚇阻裡面有拒敵彼岸 擊敵海上 毀敵水際等等的這些說法但是它每一個適用的狀況會跟在城鎮內部 在山地 在其他地區它用的無人載具會是一樣的"},{"start":6258.416,"end":6282.184,"text":"那我們沒有無限的資源所以我們一定要把資源放在我們覺得符合國家戰略的方面上所以上次我請教你無人載具的整體戰略不是要求戰術的細節而是希望說包含我們軍工產業包含說我們的情境的設想能夠有機會讓各個中小企業大概知道一個方向所以其實這些不是很不需要"},{"start":6282.904,"end":6308.567,"text":"很長很多混合很細節大家可以給我們一個方向這個方向可以讓我們未來的中小企業有機會能去參加我為什麼很重視這件事情因為包含我們的民雄航太園區不管是東側還是西側未來都有各個不同的這些產業會進駐那進駐之後他們也要知道說他要進駐哪一個才符合他們的商業最大利益才符合我們國家的最大利益所以是有這樣子的原因在我們才要請教部長"},{"start":6309.207,"end":6328.458,"text":"沒有想說要在這個質詢的過程中要讓大家感覺到很有情緒什麼的這是我們的目標這部分還是希望說部長如果有機會的話不設戰術機密他可以把一個無人機載具的我們的戰略的這個更完整的一個白皮書讓我們主要針對的"},{"start":6329.338,"end":6342.311,"text":"我甚至不是深入一些細節說它規格要怎樣 不是我們是希望說哪一個方向是ISR作為主還是這個FPEB那其實包含這個英文裡面有講很清楚"},{"start":6343.41,"end":6371.917,"text":"他們現在的這個戰略設想還有一些二十四十四十什麼二十四十四十可消耗型的APP跟這個重型的這些包含坦克等等的載具那跟這一個可重用的這種ISR他們是什麼樣的規劃來去共同配合其實這個東西在很多我們西方北約的這些國家都有相關的揭露那我是希望說部長可以協助我們的中小企業因為過去我們現在看起來主要都是大廠商的投入"},{"start":6372.737,"end":6390.101,"text":"那中小企業在這些關鍵零組件好等等那我知道中科院他確實是有很大的這個投入跟這些廠商的溝通這也是為什麼我覺得民雄航太園區在中科院主導之下一定可以做得更好因為現在不比平時現在不比平時我們現在2025年2027年"},{"start":6392.902,"end":6413.747,"text":"假定啦 2027 2028時間是不等人的如果再用什麼這個不給中科院啊讓經濟部比較有經驗等等來去搪塞推遲民雄航太園區的進展我認為這就是威脅到國家安全這就是威脅到國家的戰略我們現在戰略包含運氣的部署全部都有我不希望說有任何的政黨"},{"start":6414.912,"end":6428.697,"text":"或者是國會議員再去蓄意的推遲國家的這個發展特別是跟國家安全相關的那接下來我們想請一下這個院長 曾副院的院長想請教一下關於高功率微波反無人機系統"},{"start":6430.967,"end":6444.394,"text":"院長可不可以簡單的介紹一下關於這個HPM的這個現在最新的進展因為聽說他不是以干擾訊號而是直接用集中的這一個能量來去傷害無人機那是原有效的防範無人機是不是可以院長簡單簡單講一下"},{"start":6445.62,"end":6472.88,"text":"是所謂高功率微波其實就是用氮化鉀的功率放大器去讓這個微波對無人機它的控制系統尤其是它的晶片產生破壞性的干擾所以讓它自己掉落我們現在中科院或者是其他部門已經有掌握這個技術還是因為這是非常新的我看最近還有幾間無人機廠商跟國外的在討論說它到底有沒有這樣的效用目前你們的評估是不是一個可以作為主要反制的做法"},{"start":6473.427,"end":6492.331,"text":"跟委員解釋一下高功率微波和雷射是全世界現在針對無人機反制兩個不同的方向雷射有它的優勢就是它可以需要的功率和體積比較小高功率微波因為它高功率所以它要的體積會比較大運動也比較笨重這是目前沒有辦法克服的地方"},{"start":6492.779,"end":6507.171,"text":"那假設在物業戰爭我們看到豬網行動裡面它是用光纖作為傳輸信號導引那如果這個時候我們採用這個HPM那是不是可以有效的防止類似這樣子針對我們的基礎設施的攻擊"},{"start":6508.297,"end":6523.903,"text":"用HPM和用雷射都可以但是我們現在也有針對光芯導引無人機我們會跟著光線只要有光線它就會有那個蹤跡露出來我們會跟著光線去找到源頭直接打擊源頭那如果我們現在打算在戰前"},{"start":6525.383,"end":6551.182,"text":"衝突前發生在關鍵節點部署訪詞系統我們有沒有辦法跟交通部、數位部、內政部等等的單位來去做這些機制因為佈置這個的話它就變成說它也可能傷害到民航機具那所以這個部分有沒有什麼樣的看法要 一定要 而且你的微博 高中域微博你必須要有指向性也就是針對你不希望去傷害到或干擾到的地方你必須要去把它做遮蔽或是抑制"},{"start":6551.584,"end":6572.576,"text":"那有機會快速的來去部署這些可能未來的這種領航科技我想國防部那個DIO他們也針對這個方向有辦理徵求好 謝謝謝偉謝謝冠廷委員 部長請回接下來我們有請林大化委員上台質詢好 有請部長"},{"start":6580.629,"end":6580.889,"text":"林委員好好"},{"start":6590.791,"end":6607.65,"text":"本席非常肯定也一定會支持我們現在居民合一去建構國家整體的防衛韌性所以在這邊要提點的是國軍暫時的基礎水電供應的問題不要把日常的必然當作暫時的當然"},{"start":6610.894,"end":6626.599,"text":"好,從這邊我們有一個非常主觀的一個條件中國從未放棄入侵台灣好,那從1949年中共建政至今我們歷經的古靈土823、853及"},{"start":6628.84,"end":6652.394,"text":"打雙不打的炮擊及1996的台海飛彈危機包括近三次的環台軍事演習之每日的軍機跟軍艦的擾台狀態這不論是在國民黨或者是民進黨執政中共政權對台的侵略的企圖是始終如一面對中國的威脅我們必須務實面對可能發生的衝突"},{"start":6653.234,"end":6677.442,"text":"好在我們縱觀現在的這個烏俄戰爭或者是以色列伊朗以色列的衝突關鍵民生基礎設施實際上是優先攻擊的重點即使是以色列的鐵穹防空的系統也無法確保關鍵基礎設施的不被破壞這三則新聞從以下的二軍猛攻烏克蘭的電廠以阿"},{"start":6680.564,"end":6702.083,"text":"這個以以衝突的這個核電廠成為箭靶以及以色列的兩大電廠也遭炸毀這樣的一個關鍵民生設施成為是在這個區域戰爭區域這個區域政治當中在政治當中尤其是在戰時當中它幾乎是必會被攻擊的現象"},{"start":6702.984,"end":6724.237,"text":"好 那漢光演習設定2027年的中共犯台本席想要問部長的是在關鍵基礎設施遭受破壞的假設條件下16萬國軍的緊急戰備用水現代化的作戰系統如雷達 緊急醫療等的作戰電力有關緊急用水跟戰備供電的這兩個問題我想問國防部你們的準備如何"},{"start":6729.02,"end":6741.853,"text":"我現在就以下面這個烏二戰爭我們第六圓的人體都會被無人機的紅外線偵測偵測到這個發現我就右下角這個圖這個是在只要是紅外線對我們36 37度的人體就會了你們現在的戰備供電叫做燃就是這個發電機"},{"start":6753.604,"end":6756.405,"text":"發電機它有噪音更大然後呢這個溫度更高比36跟37更高所以連我們的體溫在這個烏鶴戰爭都可以用這樣子的一個都可以用紅外線偵測了那你在戰時當中你的戰備的供電池僅靠我們現在的這個發電機不會有危險嘛你馬上就曝光了"},{"start":6780.031,"end":6803.7,"text":"然後呢這個國防自主才能自強在上週的中科院舉辦的國內外的無人水面載具的展示本席非常肯定有很多的國內業者投入國防產業的研發跟應用那也唯有與產業的集合才能實現國家防衛的韌性好但是要提醒國防部烏克蘭是因為戰爭的狀態他迫於無奈"},{"start":6804.64,"end":6816.909,"text":"迫於無奈才用商規軍用但是我國現在是陳平時期未必適合以非軍規或非工業的規格方案來進行戰備規劃請國防部三師我就舉一個例子無人機的水平傳動軸你們現在在訓練是用什麼是採用非公規的樹崗產品"},{"start":6829.358,"end":6840.45,"text":"就是你們現在在做訓練的無人機這樣的水平傳動軸是塑膠的你知道軍規一定至少要工業規格以上軍規是工業規格的特殊規格在升級"},{"start":6841.864,"end":6846.709,"text":"現在你們是用成平的時候是用這樣子的方式用商規用這個一般的這個塑膠類的所組成的一個傳動軸在做無人機好這個所以呢本席在這邊要請國防部有具體的建議希望能夠暫備用電包括緊急醫療你的電不足我的人命醫療"},{"start":6866.887,"end":6888.472,"text":"這個一定馬上受到危險那包括這個戰備的用水包括我也想聽看看你們的這個戰備用水是怎麼樣的一個準備的方案在你針對你的旱關演習那以這個避免基礎設施的損壞或人員工藝的匱乏的時候戰力無法持續這個無法持續的問題"},{"start":6889.452,"end":6904.511,"text":"還有在這邊我也要同步請這個全棟署等一下也回應一下基於全民動源的基礎全棟署應該同步思考作業指管區緊急民生供電跟供水的對應方案部長請針對這個議題回應"},{"start":6907.196,"end":6935.054,"text":"我們請厚知事先委員好 我是厚知事次長向委員報告我們針對於戰備的用水跟用油都有一定的戰備存量那這個數字不方便在公開的部分做說明那至於電的部分我們重要的設施它的發電機幾乎都是在地下室所以比較不會從外界直接去偵測到發電機的溫度那有些部分是暴露在這個外界環境中的這個部分我們下去做研究"},{"start":6935.894,"end":6963.92,"text":"好 OK 那你的水是用水車嗎我不會問你細節 但是就以我們現在以高雄來講 我們經濟的凱米塔颱風 山陀颱風有啊 我們缺水啊 馬上就水車所以你在暫時的時候也會用水車是嗎不是說你回答我說你只回答我說 好 我有多少的存量那到時候暫時的時候我還是用水車來供應嗎我們是用礦泉水的方式 人員飲用是用礦泉水"},{"start":6965.39,"end":6979.315,"text":"能源引用 軍用也是如此是你覺得這樣足夠嗎 妥適嗎那外島是用海水氮化氣去把海水轉換成淡水外島 是那國內就是用礦檢水是好 部長您覺得對於這樣戰備用電跟用水"},{"start":6982.742,"end":6996.275,"text":"以這個我們現在陳平時期的訓練就是因應真的是暫時我們絕對不希望也絕對不希望這個事情發生但是你就是要因應啊你覺得以剛才這樣您的部署這樣的回答你覺得足夠嗎"},{"start":6997.956,"end":7024.473,"text":"我沒有辦法太詳細的回答委員的一些問題但是基本上來講假設是固定式的設施剛剛已經講了我們就自主維生的這個系統要盡量做好這個抗炸的一個設備維護那另外會有一些機動性的一個運動來確保這個我們的這個油也好水也好能夠不被敵人增資那應該要進入這個機動化的一個狀態"},{"start":7027.435,"end":7036.073,"text":"那至於您剛剛後面再提到那個有關中科院的部分,是不是要請中科院回答一下?"},{"start":7038.318,"end":7056.626,"text":"無人機的部分我們有分軍用商規和軍用軍規委員剛剛質疑的地方就是軍種採購的所謂軍用商規無人機他是希望用低價大量的方式讓國軍能夠熟悉無人機的相關運用發展相關準則和戰術但是軍用軍規的部分請委員放心我們一定會遵循軍規的標準好"},{"start":7058.027,"end":7085.218,"text":"那部長我可以理解我也不會我覺得也尊重你們對於相關細節的一個應該要有一些分寸的一個保留這我都非常的支持但是本席認為這說你認為戰備用水跟戰備用電如果如果只是用一個我們防災型的這樣的一個因應方式的話那我認為是非常危險的一件事情"},{"start":7085.838,"end":7105.339,"text":"這一點我覺得我同意委員的看法就是說我們確實還有很多精進的地方因為當進入這個有全面入侵的狀態的時候我們確實還有很多的困難所以這個時候的居民協同是相當的重要因為一方面要支援軍事專案一方面要維持基本的民生運作"},{"start":7106.36,"end":7128.325,"text":"好 我們一起加油 國人的一個安全包括它的一個即使因應在戰時跟陳平當中其實國軍真的是我們國人的後盾好 我們一起加油 謝謝好 謝委員好 謝謝林委員 部長請回接下來有請許巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們有請顧部長"},{"start":7136.059,"end":7144.404,"text":"有請部長學員好"},{"start":7145.007,"end":7169.704,"text":"好 早安 大家都很關心這個關於我們的海昆號以及呢我們前件的後續件的這個安排那包含是因為在這個延宕了77天之後呢終於能夠開始進行這個海上測試那其實這是邁出了非常的一大步那我們也希望接下來的海上測試可以成功所以呢第一個部分呢是不是可以先幫我們釐清接下來海上測試會需要的幾個階段"},{"start":7175.327,"end":7200.262,"text":"我是不是請海軍先生可以委員長我海軍參謀長報告後續目前是在做海上測試的開始那我們就會先做的是海上的服航測試那服航測試基本上會做大概三次到四次之間那實際會以驗測的一個標準有沒有達到在海上的這個服航測試之後會進入到我們會做一些裝備的調整跟調效"},{"start":7202.543,"end":7228.27,"text":"那包含了一些屋內的必要的工程那再接續後面的潛水潛水的水深比較淺的潛水的測試我們潛水大概要潛水測試大概預期大概是50公尺50公尺的測試那在完成潛水的四行之後還會再進入到深水那深水大概會到我們要求標準的規範大概200公尺左右的部分200公尺是的"},{"start":7229.031,"end":7237.919,"text":"完成這三樣的測試中間還有加上一些比較必要的作戰的測試來完成全部的海上測試那作戰的測試也包含說我們在整個潛艇上面的武器裝備的測試"},{"start":7245.447,"end":7265.393,"text":"那我們預期從因為這個最近6月17號開始我們在節點上面的安排從6月17號那要經過您剛講的幾個第一個就是我們是出港了嘛在這個出潛然後再來是出潛測試嘛深潛測試嘛然後這個戰術的測試武器測試大概這個幾個海上測試的階段那我們預期目前預期的這個節點大概在海上測試完畢我們是規劃在什麼樣的時候"},{"start":7275.214,"end":7291.419,"text":"各位委員報告 那我們原先的部分的整個期程規劃是在九月底 也就是九月三十會要做完成海上的測試那交件的時間是在十一月份 是依照合約上面 目前是這樣的規劃好 因為要問這個問題的原因在於我們在這個預算討論的時候關於凍結的部分嘛"},{"start":7296.761,"end":7319.694,"text":"那越早當然在安全的情況之下越早完成海上測試那我們就越早能夠來動之解凍相關的預算這我想呢是大家都這個包含是部長之前都有提到的就是說在海上測試成功之後那針對後續件的部分來做動之那後續件的部分我想要請問一下我們針對後續件的安排那目前的簽約情況為何"},{"start":7323.269,"end":7336.707,"text":"目前後續件的部分感謝大院的支持同意讓這個案子能夠繼續全民來做推動我們簽約部分已經跟台船在今年上半年已經完成了一個簽約的部分"},{"start":7337.888,"end":7343.81,"text":"所以無論是說我們在立法院裡面有一個主決議就說民進黨這邊提到的主決議它上面寫說要求19億5000元要把關然後依照預測檢驗航程然後要通過海上動態測試之後才能動之以確保所獲裝備符合台海防衛作戰區需求"},{"start":7361.717,"end":7386.638,"text":"這邊的提案人是王定宇、林楚瑩、沈博洋、羅美、嶺辰冠廷、王逸川委員這是主決議的部分以及我們在大院所通過的是在整體的19億5000在20億左右的金額裡面凍結50%那一個是主決議那一個是呢在大院裡面通過的這個預算的凍結這兩者之間對於後續件我們原本預定的簽約影響那"},{"start":7388.419,"end":7415.284,"text":"目前在你們的進度上面是沒有受到影響的是嗎報告委員我們簽約部分那台船就可以跟他的次合約的一個必要的裝備的這個工作商實施他的細部的簽約可以把這個後續的商員跟相關的一個這個機具的整備先做一個確認那我們整個付款的時間會在這個今年完成海策之後再動用之後"},{"start":7415.784,"end":7439.121,"text":"那原先你們預計在初期的這個跟台船簽約也就是走到這個階段的簽約款項大概是預計需要多少錢整個我們這個部分分為兩個部分一個是簽約跟其他必要的大概是兩億那台船的這個船廠的簽約船廠的費用大概是七億所以加起來是你再說一下17億是什麼樣的一個費用"},{"start":7440.702,"end":7469.642,"text":"17億是台船的一個 等於是它的一個就是說它的建造團已經開始建造團隊的時候所以分成初期簽約的2億元以及後續的另外大概17點多大概18億的這個船廠的建造的費用兩個部分對吧那我們現在已經目前就是簽約了兩艘這個後續艦那這兩艘後續艦目前簽約了但是還沒有去做支付嘛是的好 那沒有去做支付的原因是因為"},{"start":7471.703,"end":7479.868,"text":"錢沒有到位沒有辦法動之還是因為要完成先前所說的我們要在海上測試通過以後使得動之的決定"},{"start":7482.958,"end":7503.605,"text":"我想這個部分就是我在之前已經說過了我們等海撤通過以後再來整治所以因為我今天想要釐清一件事情就是說我們事實上最後的結果主決議的部分是像部長您所說的它上面寫到要海上動態測試完成之後才能夠去動之這個是主決議"},{"start":7504.645,"end":7531.469,"text":"那另外一個部分是在這個大院裡面的表決表決的部分呢是只有動之50%也就是你們是有10億的經費是可以去運用的那剛才呢我們也聽到了在這個10億的經費裡面在跆拳目前我們需要的簽約款裡面是2億左右所以呢50%也就是10億裡面拿出2億來去做簽約款這個是完全足夠完全能夠供於簽約去做使用的"},{"start":7531.949,"end":7560.443,"text":"那後續簽約完之後呢那後續的這個台船的這個建廠才有碰到這個解凍50%預算的問題那根據我們現在目前跟台船簽約兩艘的情況其實凍結50%另外的10億那是綽綽有餘的但是因為包含是部長包含是您對全民的承諾主決議以及大家的一個共識希望讓海空號它能夠有一個海上測試完成之後的這個進度那才針對後續建的部分去做"},{"start":7561.343,"end":7586.12,"text":"款項的動值那這個部分是不是如我剛剛所陳述的這樣子有沒有什麼要補充的我想我們就這樣是期待就是說這個海上測試通過之後這個能夠立即動用那最主要就是說當時在經過委員會在組決議的這個當下呢最重要的就是說要確保我們立法院是支持後續建的建造"},{"start":7586.84,"end":7609.945,"text":"是的所以不管是逐決議或者是在這個大院裡面的所謂用凍結的方式這都代表了是支持後續建的這個繼續進行否則的話那也不會有還有10億的金額讓大家能夠在後續建的部分去簽約兩條那目前沒有凍結的原因只是因為當時的承諾而非因為目前沒有錢可以凍結這樣是這樣子的吧"},{"start":7612.558,"end":7627.63,"text":"我們就是持續來請求這個大約能夠支持這個原型艦繼續能夠順利來推動然後過去艦的這個部分當然也希望日後大約能夠繼續支持海空號的部分已經全部的預算在文匯都是通過的吧"},{"start":7630.233,"end":7649.68,"text":"海昆號的部分是對啊沒有刪除任何一毛錢全面通過吧所以我們當然是全面支持海昆號不管是進行海策或者是接下來的整個交建的過程當中委員會如果不支持的話那就會有刪除或是凍結但是在海昆號的部分是沒有刪除任何一毛錢部長沒有錯吧"},{"start":7651.672,"end":7662.625,"text":"呃 海昆號的呃 原型件的部分原型件啊後續件沒有刪除對對對原型件也沒有刪除啊是 原型件也沒有刪除對 原型件也沒有刪除嘛 部長對吧"},{"start":7664.762,"end":7689.437,"text":"原型件沒有刪除是原型件沒有刪除那後續件的部分大院的版本是凍結50%代表說有10億可以去運用而簽約的款項也就是目前跟台船的簽約是2億那2億的部分沒有簽約的理由是在於說先前包含是民黨這邊的主決議以及部長您之前對大家的承諾我想確認的是這個事實是否無誤"},{"start":7690.715,"end":7709.283,"text":"現在就是說有關那個簽約的部分我們還是希望就是說這個台船這個可以他跟主要的裝備的次合約商來進行簽約那這個部分還是需要有一些經費的動資對啊那所以說海上測試之後你們會送結凍案進來嗎"},{"start":7711.476,"end":7736.825,"text":"那當然我們希望這個部分就是持續大院能夠支持好那所以我剛剛所陳述的部分就是說簽約跟後續的然後分成兩億十七億然後以及說你海上測試過後按照您之前的承諾送進來解凍然後尋求大概包含是大院或者是說我們委員會委員的支持這個部分那它就是入期的正在進行當中按照你們所設定的節點我這樣講有錯嗎"},{"start":7739.526,"end":7752.394,"text":"對,但是我這邊只是講就是說跟船長簽約的這些款項,事實上照我的理解應該是跟台船這邊是2億,但事實上跟主要的次合約上的這個簽約的預付,事實上還是有相當的金額,應該是16億"},{"start":7759.218,"end":7788.101,"text":"所以你可以分開處理你也可以一起處理但是現在的狀況就是說呢你們要等你們先前承諾要等海上測試通過之後那才要動之嘛這個主決議上面我看王定宇林、楚英省、博洋、羅美玲陳冠廷跟王逸川都是這樣寫的他們也沒有分成說有先簽約的款項或者是說後續的那就是它上面寫到是說全部的都要做完海測以後才能去動之使用所以你們目前是按照這份主決議的內容在進行當中嗎"},{"start":7789.494,"end":7794.997,"text":"是 我想我已經一再的說明我們就是等海澈通過之後好 謝謝 謝謝副長好 謝謝學委員部長請回接下來請林義軍委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請外交部吳次長有請次長"},{"start":7825.925,"end":7830.886,"text":"次長首先我想說本席想要繼續針對有關中美洲銀行卡貝這個問題向你請教這個問題上回期其實本席已經質詢過很多次了但是還是沒有解決請問次長卡貝成立的目的是不是為了協助中美洲地區的區域整合及經濟的發展還有說台灣目前是不是中美洲開發銀行最大的持股的成員國呢"},{"start":7853.7,"end":7878.298,"text":"我們現在仍然是咖啡的最大股東參與咖啡很重要的目的就是因為我們目前在國際場合能參與的國際組織並不多參與之後也展現台灣對於世界是有所貢獻的尤其中美洲那地方我們有七個邦交國所以對我們來講參與是有它的重要性的"},{"start":7879.1,"end":7888.028,"text":"市長中美洲開發銀行在我國已經發行了3億美元的債券還有在台北101大樓還有設立了整個辦事處對不對應該沒有錯吧我們請市長回答一下"},{"start":7893.075,"end":7919.584,"text":"是委員好對他們在國內確實發行的3億的債券那另外他們的辦公室會搬到天母的那個10萬大樓去那外交部在今年的114年度有針對深化參與中美洲銀行的有編的相關的公開的預算然後有2億3900萬元的裡面的預算裡面這個預算裡面有包含的預注在其他如亞蘇的中心還有協助非政府組織推動國際合作的計劃等經費"},{"start":7922.805,"end":7948.019,"text":"可是從你們提供的說明的資料的預算書裡面還是看不出究竟挹注了卡貝多少預算還有114年編列這個整個的中美洲的開發銀行的2億3900多萬裡面的預算這個還不包含了機密的預算到底是準備是要用在哪裡那為什麼有增資整個股款有那麼多的預算那為什麼沒有詳細說明清楚和留下"},{"start":7950.353,"end":7962.207,"text":"報告委員那有關於這裡面有關於咖啡的部分是我們有跟咖啡建立的雙邊基金最後一年的這個費用是100萬美元那至於股款增資的部分是財政部在主管並不是我們這邊外交部來負擔"},{"start":7963.55,"end":7974.737,"text":"好那今天是不是外交部有送來一筆卡貝的中美洲開發的銀行的預算嗎是準備送來解凍的嗎雖然是整個是機密的預算但是我想請問一下就是114年到現在對卡貝已經開始有預注的資金了嗎還有究竟如果說有預注的資金的話114年外交部到目前為止究竟預注了卡貝有多少預算如果針對公開的部分可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":7993.49,"end":7993.636,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7994.959,"end":8024.199,"text":"報告委員就是剛提到的最後一期的預註款100萬美元就是那100萬這樣就對了但是現在中美洲開發銀行預註的預算都還在凍結中不是嗎然後我是聽說最近有聽說你們已經開始偷偷地動用了這一筆的整個預算幫其他國家在繳股款還有繳貸款的利息補貼這樣那我想請問一下這樣是繳了多少錢還有說請問是幫助哪些國家"},{"start":8026.26,"end":8026.66,"text":"所以到辦公室來說明嗎?"},{"start":8041.249,"end":8070.18,"text":"我想說因為台灣政府現在預租的卡貝其實並且是給其他國家的捐助其實通常不管我們是主動還是被動問題重點都是在於卡貝直接是用金錢的方式我們來增加彼此國際合作的關懷這是跟直接拿現金的情況是一樣的這可能就會回到以前過去的那些金錢的外交的方式所以因為我們現在新政府的外交的理念是屬於總和外交所以我想說不管是中央政府"},{"start":8070.76,"end":8085.278,"text":"財政部、中央銀行、外交部每年都還是一起一直在預祝中美洲開發銀行那會將卡貝當成金錢外交的白手套所以我想這方面到時候再麻煩來辦公室說明一下可以嗎"},{"start":8086.311,"end":8115.25,"text":"可以 那跟委員報告一下現在我們中華民國台灣已經成為一個民主國家那正是因為有跟大院的充分的合作所以我相信金錢外交或把那個金錢放到一個不合法的這樣的一個方法應該不再存在了那這要感謝大院就跟我們外交部共同合作然後創造出一個這樣對我們國家的形象所以我想金錢外交這部分應該再跟與大院合作然後我們接受監督的情況之下應該是不再存在的 謝謝"},{"start":8116.45,"end":8121.475,"text":"對 好那接下來我有請那個顧部長 謝謝謝謝委員委員請部長社委委員好"},{"start":8128.834,"end":8131.536,"text":"部長好 我想先請教一下部長是有關現在全國人民最關心的潛艦國造的問題上週六月十七號的時候我們終於看到海空號有測試進度開始出港服航了所以雖然已經延宕了很久但是還是看到一個曙光終於開始要啟動了整個的海測"},{"start":8148.525,"end":8153.132,"text":"本席想要知道說國防自主建造潛艦的困難請問一下部長目前海昆號準備進行海測會碰到哪些困難呢如果可以說明的話部長可以以公開說明的部分回答本席就好了"},{"start":8163.947,"end":8169.409,"text":"還有就是說本席也有看到這一次潛艦的外型和部長討論一下就是前幾天影片中可以看出海昆號的弦側的被動陣列的聲納跟其他國家的潛艦比起來其實造型明顯不太一樣那請問一下部長如果沒有重大的缺失的話海昆號目前的狀況是這個就是最終的構型了嗎還有想說根據了解就是說因為海昆號的設計"},{"start":8191.698,"end":8193.4,"text":"其實是單雙挺殼的混合設計那未來這個弦側上面的這個聲納這些有沒有計畫把它整合到非耐壓殼裡面還是像其他國家一樣做一個外型比較平滑的整流罩呢還是讓它維持現在這樣呢"},{"start":8210.653,"end":8236.739,"text":"首先跟委員報告海上測試的項目大概三四項就是分成浮航、潛水潛航跟深水潛航是三階段每一個階段都要安排好幾次的海上測試所以我想我們還有很多工作要做那會依測試的結果管制就是說所有完成這個CHECKOUT的一個調校那至於那個測距被動測距聲納的這個部分呢原廠本來就採用這個曲面的設計"},{"start":8237.779,"end":8262.487,"text":"有關後續的這個部分,是不是海軍在詳細說明?是,我也好,海軍這邊跟國民報告,就是說這個原廠本來就是做這個曲面的設計是為了達到更好的收音的效果那國外的一個潛艦,那剛才在諮詢的時候也提過像在英國的維多利亞級跟這個澳洲的柯林斯級也是用這一種的一個一樣的曲面設計來達到一個反潛收索的一個效果"},{"start":8263.047,"end":8278.945,"text":"所以這個效果目前後續這個能夠達到這個功效我們後面這個是符合他的廠方的發這個他的一個設計跟認證後面是不會做這個相關的一個構型的調整這是本來的設計的屬於正常現象所以就是維持會像現在這樣一樣就對了"},{"start":8280.467,"end":8303.553,"text":"OK好那我想再請問一下就是說現在潛艦最大的敵人就是聲音嘛所以現在就是說在大家都在研製整個潛艦的時候其實都會盡量去降低整個潛艦的噪音的問題然後我有稍微整理一下就是說我們有機械的噪音還有螺掌的噪音和水洞噪音然後想請問國防部一下有沒有透過不管是電腦還是實際"},{"start":8305.493,"end":8320.879,"text":"模型的模擬測試海空話目前構型在航速下的水動的噪音因為雖然這個不是主要的噪音的內容的來源但是航速如果很快的時候噪音就會很明顯而且現在潛艦最大的敵人就是聲音了所以我想說不曉得國防部對這個是怎麼樣的看法"},{"start":8327.137,"end":8350.071,"text":"是 謝委員 跟委員報的就是整個潛艦對於海洋環境聲音的音傳跟水下的物理現象跟海洋資料庫的一個水底的地形是本來水下作戰的最重要的部分那這個部分海軍都有結合到跟產官學還有我們內部有一些有關水下生育的部分有配合中科院在做一些系統整合"},{"start":8350.811,"end":8366.709,"text":"那對於水下的這些環境然後這個陰船路徑跟聲納的運用以及跟這個整個一個水下的聲音的包含水下的聲音的整理跟分析都有一個完整的規劃那委員如果比較需要有時間我們早陣子再跟委員做一個進一步的報告"},{"start":8367.632,"end":8367.672,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":8382.412,"end":8388.914,"text":"國防部馬上就要進行歷年時間最久的漢光41號演習那甚至要大規模的教召整個參加演習那我想請問一下部長就是這次國防部打算教召多少後備軍人還有教召的人員中有多少人會實際參與這次的漢光演習還是大部分跟平常一樣呢就是只有在召集處就地訓練就可以了呢"},{"start":8409.532,"end":8417.485,"text":"我們現在召集之後就進入這個他們本身的作戰地境內裡面的相關的戰術位置那我們大概應該這一次是會高達兩萬"},{"start":8420.359,"end":8439.901,"text":"兩萬兩千嘛那其中一個旅是全旅動員然後來兩公六旅然後來做一個全旅的動員這樣所以是大約有兩萬多人這樣就對了對兩萬多人那其中我們要驗證我們最主要在這裡要驗證就是說一個後備旅上來之後需要多少的時間才能夠"},{"start":8441.345,"end":8468.65,"text":"我們名詞叫做臨戰訓練就是說他從後備被叫召過來以後他要花多久的時間能夠恢復到他原有的戰力這跟我們整個防衛作戰計畫會有很大很大的連動性所以我們必須要做一個實兵的驗證所以這些叫召的人員中他們會參加這次的漢關演習嗎兩萬多個人都會參加這整個漢關演習就對了包括鞭屎動員跟相關的這些後備的擴編動員"},{"start":8470.151,"end":8470.992,"text":"馬文君委員不在"},{"start":8493.311,"end":8512.166,"text":"已登記質詢委員處不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束這個本日會議有黃人委員提出書面質詢請列入紀錄並刊登公報那委員書面及口頭質詢為其答覆或者要求補充資料者再請國防部提供或到委員的辦公室說明"},{"start":8517.546,"end":8535.037,"text":"接下來我們來進行討論事項今天討論事項比較多我們先從討論事項第一項開始第一項是一一三年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管海軍司令部國軍HF通信機換裝案預算凍結五百萬元這個案子"},{"start":8538.439,"end":8551.494,"text":"好那我們提出書面報告並經同意後才使得動之所以才報告再討論事項那國防部已經將書面報告送交本會這個各位手上應該都有請問各位委員是否同意解凍同意好同意那我們就針對討論事項第一項我們同意動之提報院會"},{"start":8561.277,"end":8579.471,"text":"那接下來這個是比較複雜的,這個一四年度的,因為四年度的就很多了那這個討論事項第二項,我們先從一跟二開始討論事項第二項,大家手上有第二項裡面有這個括號國字一跟括號國字二,這兩個"},{"start":8581.519,"end":8603.241,"text":"那這個呢114年度國防部主管預算凍結案中提出專案報告並經同意後時得凍資這兩案一個是這個都是軍備局的那這個國防部剛才這個就是剛剛專案報告的部分不過我看那個問的人比較少一點所以請問各位委員是否同意解凍同意同意那我們就同意凍資提報院會"},{"start":8605.933,"end":8627.372,"text":"好 那接下來就是再更複雜的齁 一個比一個複雜齁但是 但是 好像 我看到沒有意見 這個好 討論事項第二項 我們用這個括號國字三 括號國字三這個部分這個處理一四年度國防部主管預算凍結案提出書面報告並經同意後 使得動之"},{"start":8628.593,"end":8646.466,"text":"因為這邊有21案那這個裡面的內容呢剛剛在質詢的時候有聽到一些那這個國防部已將書面報告送交本會請問各位委員是否同意解凍同意那我們就均同意動之提報院會"},{"start":8651.069,"end":8669.021,"text":"好那我們接下來進入到這個討論事項第三項因為這個是跟機密有關所以如果大家有意見要討論的話有可能要開機密會議這個是外交部主管預算凍結案中提出書面報告並經同意後使得凍結案這個是民眾黨黨團所提議的一個跟機密有關的一個凍結案"},{"start":8675.885,"end":8682.418,"text":"那外交部已經將書面報告交給各位委員了那是否各位委員是同意解凍的不同意"},{"start":8685.469,"end":8707.663,"text":"這個不同意 那這個呢 是否 那是不是 因為這個是機密那 還有 請我建議這樣子啦 因為這涉及機密 我們要清場再討論 其實我看我們就不討論 直接表決我建議這樣子 因為這個議案都討論過了啦那如果為了討論 把重複的東西再說過 要清場我就這樣反而反覆 我建議就暫停討論 直接表決"},{"start":8710.899,"end":8735.639,"text":"好,那這個齁,因為這個是,第一個齁,這是黨團齁民眾黨黨團的提議啦齁,那我知道這一個我們的黃,呃,黃,欸?民眾黨主席叫做?喔,抱歉抱歉喔,這個我們的國昌委員對這個案子齁,是,是非常的,非常的有意見齁所以呢,那不知道那個義軍委員這一個,那個,國昌,有,有要,有要過來嗎?"},{"start":8738.739,"end":8756.435,"text":"對 那他有要過來說明或者好 因為這個其實剛從討論事項二到三開始其實都是我們花了很多很多的時間然後當時這個激烈的攻防跟凍結這個解凍為什麼會如此的迅速那如果說是這個樣子的話 如果"},{"start":8759.119,"end":8773.628,"text":"如果國常委員會要來的話那我們是不是就先採取剛剛這一個委員的提議我們就來針對這個討論事項三這一個機密的部分我們就先來做進行表決那我們現在進行表決請議事人員清點人數"},{"start":8785.854,"end":8800.758,"text":"好 那我們現在總共六人嘛 六人齁好 這個是討論事項齁 討論 我再講一次 討論事項第三連主席七個喔 不是六人齁 七人齁 七人齁八個 民主引導 八個好"},{"start":8802.93,"end":8816.158,"text":"好那我們這個是討論事項第三案再強調一次討論事項第三案外交部的這一個部分這個是否要同意動之那我們本案才舉手表決用這個議事規則第35條那我們贊成的贊成這個動之的請舉手贊成贊成贊成好贊成的有六位那反對的請舉手"},{"start":8832.692,"end":8842.039,"text":"反對一位那表決結果贊成者六人反對者一人那贊成者多數本案通過同意動之同意動之好我們還是希望這個"},{"start":8849.434,"end":8877.388,"text":"提案的還有這一個前面有我們國防部我們真的我們今天兩天一次為很重要的一個目的就是很希望因為我還是講一下就是說因為我知道我也想跟國防部這個講一下還有外交部講一下這件事情就是說因為我們大概都會有一個習慣就是說提案的委員然後大家會去辦公室然後呢取得同意然後說明等等之類的這當然是好事因為要先取得共識但因為委員會畢竟也有其他的委員他們沒有提案但是他們"},{"start":8878.188,"end":8902.206,"text":"可能是因為他們不希望動之所以呢或者說希望動之那所以呢如果能夠呢趕快交到這一個委員會讓每一個委員都能夠知道然後讓很多的討論能夠是在這個公開的地方進行除了機密以外啦就在公開的地方進行的話其實我覺得對於國人要了解這些事情是還是會有幫助啦所以呢不管今天那個溝通的結果為何還是希望說都能夠比較"},{"start":8903.307,"end":8909.255,"text":"儘速的能夠提到這個大院來討論那我剛剛有看到這個 喬歆我也好奇是 主席在這邊我有一個建議就是說剛剛討論的事項是我們表決在第三案的部分那待會我也不會講到跟機密有關的內容"},{"start":8920.129,"end":8949.165,"text":"只是說因為剛才我們在這個表決的過程當中呢那也有因為我們當然都希望大家是有共識嘛那這個義軍委員他們這邊呢他們是還是認為應該要動之代表說我們在溝通上面那可能還沒有足以讓包含是民眾黨民眾黨團能夠在這個內容上面呢得到一個滿意的答覆所以我在希望說外交部是不是我們已經解凍那可以再一次的去向"},{"start":8950.246,"end":8963.202,"text":"義軍委員或者民眾黨團做私下機密上面的說明跟溝通這樣我覺得會更加的完善好嗎這個我知道外交部應該是有一直有要找這個民眾黨黨團對不對"},{"start":8965.578,"end":8991.081,"text":"再表決之後我們再去一次我覺得這樣會比較妥善因為畢竟剛才有這個表決那他舉手是不同意嘛那是不是可以就是再跟他們再溝通一次這樣子對我的建議啦好那也是要外交部要找得到人啊那請這個先定員委然後再來處理委員好謝謝第一個林益君是無辜的因為他看起來不太有意見啦那是民進黨團有意見"},{"start":8993.022,"end":9012.792,"text":"民眾黨是民眾黨團有意見那民眾黨有意見的人也非本委員會我也不曉得意見是什麼但我贊成剛才徐曉欣委員所說的通過前通過後其實國會跟行政部門本來就多溝通但是本席要提醒根據立法院八個委員會其實其他七個委員會以往"},{"start":9013.911,"end":9039.485,"text":"解凍案的提出是不用經提案委員同意的因為它是經過委員會同意凍結就要經委員會同意解凍它是委員會的議決事項所以過去我們在第九屆有個漏歸只有國防委員會有必須提案委員同意你們才敢提案出來解凍當時本席也提案也經過我們委員會通過就是解凍"},{"start":9040.606,"end":9061.638,"text":"解凍案不用經提案委員個人同意才提因為那樣子容易產生弊端一個人可以綁住所有的預算這個我們都在委員會第九屆第十屆都討論過我們在場的我們委員會的同仁應該包含我們之前這邊的我們的議事組人員應該都有印象所以解凍案"},{"start":9062.378,"end":9080.168,"text":"提出個別委員當然三個人聯署就可以凍結但是凍結是經委員會同意所以它是委員會決議所以解凍也不用經委員個人同意才能解凍以免滋生弊端這是本委員會決議也是立法院所有委員會行之多年的準則"},{"start":9081.309,"end":9105.588,"text":"所以最後就是說在相關機密預算解凍後那我們也這個如同該徐委員所提的跟行政部門跟立法部門多溝通但溝通的時候請謹守保密的分際那所以我再講一次林益君委員是無辜的有意見的不是他那他投下那一票大家也不用太怪罪他啦這個民眾黨員有意見請他們自己向社會說明"},{"start":9107.39,"end":9122.11,"text":"好這個齁這個對就是剛剛這個定員就是也是我剛剛前面齁提到的就是說齁我們其實呢不一定要以這個為前提那如果說今天即使是提案的委員不同意那更應該讓大家知道因為他不同意的點在哪裡所以呢放在委員會讓大家"},{"start":9123.311,"end":9137.381,"text":"來討論然後在討論事項的時候其實是大家可以暢所欲言的我們看到我們這個討論事項有沒有限時大家這個發表意見的這一個這個時間上的一個限制所以呢這一次呢我知道有幾個案子呢有可能在提案委員他可能並沒有這個"},{"start":9139.903,"end":9167.857,"text":"想要針對解凍這一邊想要放行但他更應該放在這邊討論但是今天很可惜的是就是非常多的提案委員根本就不在這裡啦不是只有民眾黨的這一個還有很多的案子的委員根本就不在這裡那這樣我覺得很失去了這個我們委員會能夠來安排這個討論事項然後廣泛討論的意義但是在處理委員這一個發表意見之前我想先問一下這個外交部就是說針對民眾黨這一個案子有找過民眾黨黨團嗎"},{"start":9171.4,"end":9184.846,"text":"有找過民眾黨黨團嘛 對不對但是就是在溝通上 OK 好所以這一個就我所知應該是有溝通數次啦那當然這個最後的結果為何我們現在不知道因為這是一個機密預算好那這個 楚映委員"},{"start":9187.201,"end":9204.505,"text":"對,我的意見其實跟王定宇委員一樣啦就是說我覺得還是要尊重本委員會的委員那麼尊重本委員會的情況底下不是說個別的某一位不論他至少要尊重我們現在在現場的如果說他是以黨團的名義那其實我們在院會的時候已經有處理過以黨團為主的那現在這個節奏就應該尊重委員會而不是說今天這個人或是這個黨團"},{"start":9212.026,"end":9238.555,"text":"只有一位代表在這裡然後就否決我們其他人在這邊監督預算或者是對預算行使的權利那所以這個部分我的意見是跟王定宇委員一樣我也建議外交部能夠持續再溝通但是也要讓社會大眾知道如果說只是有個默定的特別的黨團或某一個特別的委員還在阻擋預算我覺得也必須透過今天這樣的一個直播讓所有全國的民眾看到這是我發言的重點"},{"start":9240.905,"end":9263.391,"text":"謝謝楚英委員那這個呢而且我們禮拜一其實安排了這一個這個也是相關跟這個凍結有關的這一個考察然後呢也是我們是真的很重視解凍這件事情因為這個總預算通過完了以後復議完的時候都已經三月了然後現在延會到六月這個時候我們都還在處理這些解凍但還是很希望我們解凍的程序是第一個是嚴謹的然後呢我們有有配合考察然後也配合相關的這個討論事項"},{"start":9264.571,"end":9273.679,"text":"那也希望這個因為我們這邊很多提案的有可能是馬文君委員那這一個當然今天馬文君委員也不在現場民眾黨這一個王國昌委員現在也不在現場那這個會對於我們這個討論沒有一個實質的幫助那我們處理最後一個再還有一個討論事項第四項我們這個國防部跟外交部這個同仁先鬆一口氣了那現在是僑委會了"},{"start":9287.13,"end":9305.706,"text":"這個討論事項第四項這一個是國治4沒有括號的處理僑委會的主管預算擴大培育及留用僑生預算凍結案這個是300萬那這個呢也是要提出書面報告並經同意後要實得動之僑委會已經有書面報告送交本會那請問各位委員是否同意解凍同意同意解凍"},{"start":9307.691,"end":9320.224,"text":"同意同意同意動之提報院會那這個應該這個提案也是沒有來那我們這個本日議程所列事項均已處理完畢那因為6月25、6月26這兩天為一次會那我們現在散會"},{"start":9333.391,"end":9336.914,"text":"欸 祥宇 祥宇這樣算嗎更好就是只要哪怕是有字就算了"},{"start":9361.688,"end":9366.435,"text":"算吧你幫我看一下公報那我要跟一時而無間提醒一下嗎?我們找一下一時而無間"},{"start":9379.813,"end":9385.055,"text":"好吧就說就說我有講我總共有講十八九個字啊同意嘛同意嘛"},{"start":9398.059,"end":9399.68,"text":"我們最後四個字講到這裡OK啊"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}