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主席謝謝 麻煩請陳代理主委好 我們請陳代理主委"},{"start":18.177,"end":44.995,"text":"委員長來 代理主委早我想從去年行政院在提出相關NCC委員名單那之後立法院這邊審議完畢之後到現在NCC委員還是只有三位嘛對不對是那到今年的7月31號這三位委員會任期結束屆滿對沒錯那所以依法令規定4月30號以前要提出新的名單那現在只剩到4月30號只剩一個多月的時間"},{"start":46.499,"end":68.457,"text":"我想請教一下代理主委有沒有聽到說我們這個名單什麼時候會出來目前毫無所惜你也不知道行政院院長沒有找你開會沒有沒有好所以從去年的11月到現在行政院長沒有找你開過會針對名單或是其他部分沒有就當初要代理的時候有跟我講好沒有問題那我們來看一下因為"},{"start":69.281,"end":83.64,"text":"代理主委其實都已經把這個實話講出來就是說現在行政院到底對於NCC委員的提名著不著急嚴不嚴峻或者是說認為重不重要我覺得說看行政院的態度因為他半年了嘛"},{"start":84.401,"end":102.217,"text":"從去年11月到現在3月已經快半年時間那現在4月3號馬上就到了到底名單什麼要提出來名單沒有提出來立法院沒有辦法審查我們就沒有辦法給國人一個交代所以現在是行政院持續的拖延這個時間但另外一個部分 主委"},{"start":103.106,"end":127.282,"text":"在過完農曆年之後行政院很罕見的不附屬我們所通過的三讀通過的衛廣法修法那你剛剛也講了一個大白話就說行政院長在不附屬前也沒有找你開過任何會所以我們想請教行政院認為衛廣法修法通過沒有辦法依法行政的主要原因是什麼"},{"start":129.647,"end":156.315,"text":"根據行政院的新聞稿根據行政院新聞稿所以現在代理主委告訴我們一個大白話就是說在行政院長不附屬前也沒有找主管機關來開過會也沒有問過主管機關的意見也沒有問主管機關說到底有沒有自愛難行是不是你也是之後看行政院新聞稿才知道說我們通過法令被行政院不附屬了你覺得這是一個完整的行政流程嗎"},{"start":156.915,"end":180.454,"text":"各位報告要補充一點行政院的業管處有跟我們要當初衛管法修正時候的利弊分析就是我們當時在交友會提供的意見有提供素材提供給他沒有問題但是我們三讀通過了法令結果行政院要不附屬連找主管機關來請教一下當初修法的過程是什麼都沒有來我們來看一下"},{"start":181.355,"end":202.612,"text":"為什麼本行那麼重視因為衛廣法的修法其實我們是經過很嚴謹的過程逐條審查意見表達委員會溝通朝野協商到最後真的沒有共識的時候院會來做表決處理哪一點不是符合我們所有的法令規定來 請教我們這次衛廣法通過有幾條照這邊圖是加起來應該"},{"start":209.215,"end":228.571,"text":"一二三四五六七八九十嘛 十條嘛 對不對來 其中四條我們是不是在交通委員會的時候本席擔任召委的時候我們就在這邊來做一個處理並且是三個黨團有共識NCC主管機關也在現場 沒有反對所以我們在委員會就通過的"},{"start":229.676,"end":254.21,"text":"是不是對好再來第五條跟第五十條是不是送草野協商之後在草野協商院長主持的草野協商第五條跟第五十條也同意所以說沒有表決我們就通過了第十條跟第十七條到最後民進黨沒有反對所以是國民黨跟民眾黨版本合併起來然後通過的所以真正表決的有幾條"},{"start":257.123,"end":276.658,"text":"兩條 第十八條跟第十九條嘛 是不是好 那我先請教一下我讓國人了解一下說這一個過程嚴謹的狀況是請教 院會表決NCC沒有辦法參與但是在前面的第一條 第二條 第十一條 第十五條跟第五條 第五十條 十條跟第十七條這八條 NCC我們在現場"},{"start":278.378,"end":300.167,"text":"在交委會在召委你主持的時候我們都有在場你有參與協商的時候啊參與協商韓院長主持的時候我有在場你也在場嗎對所以兩個協商你都在場啊因為這本來就是我們中華民國立法的時候的一個過程行政部門一定在場即便是黨團三個黨團都同意在委員會我講最沒有爭議的"},{"start":302.148,"end":323.24,"text":"第一條第二條第十條第十五條國民黨民眾黨民進黨所有的委員同意通過NCC也在現場也沒有反對所以這四條我們委員會就可以處理了對不對是好那五條五十條十條第十七條也都在朝野協商的時候可能有做文字修正但是NCC有沒有表達意見"},{"start":324.935,"end":334.47,"text":"有適當的表達意見也認為可以行使也認為符合國人的期待或是社會大眾對於這次修法的過程裡面NCC是同意的"},{"start":336.141,"end":351.715,"text":"就是有折衝過的部分我們是所以NCC同意但是18、19我們是對我先問這先不要進入18、19嘛NCC同意有沒有同意不反對不反對不反對就同意好來18、19條在院會表決"},{"start":355.526,"end":375.989,"text":"到最後比數是多少 你們記得嗎票數 第19條大家比較廣泛有爭議的 或是說大家覺得說這東西可能NCC沒有辦法同意但是委員會 就沒有辦法嘛因為立法院是多數決嘛 是合議制嘛所以到最後如果說真的沒有的話我們就是到議場要去做表決那表決到最後第19條有人反對嗎當時紀錄好像 好像是如趙偉所講的"},{"start":385.151,"end":401.318,"text":"沒有人反對60比0嘛國民黨民眾黨的委員投下了同意票民進黨的委員按初期沒有反對所以到時候是60贊成0反對立法院三讀通過法案"},{"start":404.721,"end":429.541,"text":"NCC我也看啦第19條相對比較有爭議NCC第一時間也跳出來講是說他沒有設計回溯機制所以沒有所謂外界傳言或是綠營網軍特意在講是說哎呀這有可能是中天復台啊沒有啊你們NCC怎麼講馬上第一時間發新聞稿啊就說他沒有回溯機制所以說他沒有存在所謂的復台不復台嗎是不是"},{"start":430.59,"end":434.853,"text":"這是面向之一所以我講了那麼多我只想要講你不覺得非常離譜嗎NCC還是獨立機關嗎當一個法條立法院三讀通過而三讀通過的過程是委員會充分討論民進黨民眾黨國民黨三個黨團都可以接受的時候來上一張"},{"start":454.807,"end":464.715,"text":"民進黨民眾黨國民黨都可以通過接受委員會就討論有共識NCC沒有反對NCC的專業意見認為是說第一條第二條第十一條第十五條可以修"},{"start":466.155,"end":490.673,"text":"通過了第五條第五十條或十條十七條是草野協商的時候大家有共識NCC也都有參與所以也通過了即便是沒有共識的十八十九條沒有辦法因為一定有些時候沒有共識嘛這就是民主的常態但進入到我國立法的行政最後流程就是院會表決的時候沒有人反對"},{"start":492.362,"end":498.925,"text":"連民進黨在那邊叫附台他們不敢反對 為什麼因為他們後面也有壓力啊不是嗎他們後面也有人說其實這條應該可以修啊"},{"start":506.206,"end":530.297,"text":"好嘛 所以他們不敢反對嘛沒有人反對結果現在整個三讀通過法令送到了行政院行政院沒有找NCC來開會行政院院長沒有問一下NCC說這一條NCC有沒有自愛難行之處沒有啊 因為NCC都覺得說這可以做啊然後結果到最後行政院院長以不附屬來說我不執行然後他的理由是說這違憲"},{"start":532.165,"end":556.062,"text":"有違憲之餘說這違法違了哪一個法NCC在跟我們一起違法嗎NCC在跟民進黨民眾黨國民黨團一起違法嗎你不覺得這是一個中華民國憲政史上最黑暗的時刻我拿這個例子我必須要用我交通委員會今天的時間要正告國人如果說我們經過一個很嚴謹的修法程序內容"},{"start":562.031,"end":580.676,"text":"流程因為我擔任召委所以我非常注重程序正義為什麼我要花那麼多時間逐條審查一次詢答詢答完畢之後我再一次才做逐條審查我排了兩次會就是要讓大家充分表達意見我有沒有讓哪一個民進黨委員說你不能來發言沒有"},{"start":581.736,"end":605.969,"text":"民進黨委員要來講我充分讓他講講完之後讓NCC來做答覆所以我們才會凝聚那麼多共識至少八個條文裡面是不用表決的就已經草野協商就已經可以二三讀了第十八條第十九條沒有人反對到最後表決然後結果送到行政院行政院沒有找主管機關衛廣法主管機關是誰通常會"},{"start":608.464,"end":636.652,"text":"NCC嘛國家通訊傳播委員會嘛結果行政院在不附屬的時候連找NCC主委來開會討論過都沒有所以你認為是說你要送資料這麼重要的不附屬不用找你問一下NCC委員的意見你的肩膀跟風骨在哪裡我不為難你因為你是代理主委我說實在話我對因為你畢竟他沒有讓你爭取嘛"},{"start":637.699,"end":645.337,"text":"但是我的意思是說如果你還要這樣子幫行政院硬撓我看不下去因為這件事情我覺得是大是大非的問題"},{"start":649.235,"end":676.859,"text":"行政院長可以一個人不附屬用一個本來不屬於他的權利不附屬是針對總統如果他對總統有意見總統公告之後他不附屬那是行政院長還是總統是可是現在行政院長濫用這個權利把他來變成是行政院對於立法院三讀通過法令的一個不尊重而這個立法院三讀通過法令在未廣法這一個部分"},{"start":677.339,"end":680.002,"text":"是經過非常嚴謹的討論至少上個會期我們已經討論了好幾個月主委"},{"start":688.206,"end":712.431,"text":"如果看到這樣大家都還可以脫面自甘如果今天我們所有在場的官員大家都還可以脫面自甘認為是說沒關係啦反正行政院長他不附屬嘛那也不是第一次啦是第五次啦他也不附屬了五條啦所以多一條沒關係啦所以將來第六條第七條第八條也可以啊那我們委員會不用開了啦反正委員會在這邊今天是NCC明天是內政部後面是速發部只要"},{"start":713.581,"end":735.412,"text":"跟在這邊即便達成共識行政官員的專業可以跟立法委員大家充分溝通達成共識的條文結果送出去了到行政院那邊只要行政院覺得不滿意行政院覺得是說臉面掛不住行政院覺得是說這跟他顏色不一樣他就不附屬那以後立法院所有送出的三讀通過的法令都可以這樣玩耶主委"},{"start":739.945,"end":764.395,"text":"身為參與的人你也是歷史的一份子啊我們現在大家都在共創歷史但這個歷史是中華民國憲政體史上最黑暗的歷史因為這代表什麼代表行政權凌駕立法權立法院三讀通過法令行政院只要不喜歡他可以否決立法院通過的法令即便這個法令修法的時候有行政部門一起參加"},{"start":767.864,"end":780.386,"text":"然後他可以不管主管機關的意見他可以不尊重獨立機關行使獨立機關權利的時刻因為行政院長大於你獨立機關這就是他展現的傲慢跟態度"},{"start":784.4,"end":804.949,"text":"無話可說真的真的沒有話可說因為我說真的我也不知道你要怎麼樣幫他辯護啊因為你也很納悶啊因為說實在話行政院長不附屬的時候也沒找你開會啊你連跟他說NO都不行啊你連跟他講是說欸院長其實那八條我們都討論過都不行啊你都沒有機會我們沒有提供都是教會所有人表達的意見是嗎"},{"start":805.734,"end":832.615,"text":"所以你還是再一次強調你越強調一次就越代表說行政院長傲慢嘛因為行政院長在不附屬的時候連找主管機關連花個時間找你過來問一下說到底通過流程已經你會不會違憲會不會自愛難行有沒有違法之餘他都不願意這就是現在民進黨政府如果國人還看不清楚的話那真的大家就是以後就接受行政院獨大吧"},{"start":833.803,"end":846.293,"text":"所以這也是我們講是說我今天政黨都會輪替但是重要的是法治精神是跟那個過程國民黨執政過國民黨也因為程序被人家講是說過程怎麼樣所以到2016年民眾選擇了淘汰國民黨讓國民黨再演"},{"start":851.792,"end":879.854,"text":"那現在過去這十年我們一步一步的讓立法權越來越緊縮行政權獨大然後NCC一個號稱獨立的機關結果沒想到我們修一個法令被行政院長這樣子狠狠的羞辱我覺得這是本席最看不下去的如果說民眾大家還看不下去的話那這樣子台灣真的我不知道未來會走向怎麼樣我真的希望國人能夠了解這個狀況這是為什麼我把今天全部都講清楚"},{"start":881.943,"end":909.788,"text":"我會在總質詢的時候再問行政院長我會問一樣的問題我看他怎麼拓面自甘但我要講的是主委或是代理主委為中華民國人民服務這是一件很光榮的事情如果說我們沒有任何的封骨或說沒有遇到任何問題然後可以勇於挺身而出講話的話我覺得這樣子我也會對你表達遺憾每個禮拜四的行政院會你有參加"},{"start":911.341,"end":922.246,"text":"過去幾個禮拜你參加過幾次了行政院長不附屬的時候你也沒有站起來表達一下相關意見感謝 我的資訊到此結束 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:03.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:04.299000+08:00","text":"主席，謝謝，麻煩請陳代理主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:04.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:05.301000+08:00","text":"請陳代理主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:12.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:12.918000+08:00","text":"委員早安。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:12.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:13.318000+08:00","text":"代理主委早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:14.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:25.166000+08:00","text":"我想從去年行政院提出相關NCC委員名單，立法院審議完畢之後，到現在NCC委員還是只有3位，對不對？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:26.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:30.350000+08:00","text":"到今年7月31號，這3位委員任期也會結束、屆滿。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:30.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:31.030000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:31.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:35.113000+08:00","text":"所以依法令規定，4月30號以前要提出新的名單。對。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:36.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:44.522000+08:00","text":"現在到4月30號只剩一個多月的時間，我想請教一下代理主委，有沒有聽到這個名單什麼時候會出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:44.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:45.143000+08:00","text":"目前毫無所悉。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:45.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:46.264000+08:00","text":"你也不知道？對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:46.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:48.866000+08:00","text":"行政院院長沒有找你開過會？沒有。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:49.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:49.867000+08:00","text":"沒有，好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:50.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:55.851000+08:00","text":"所以從去年11月到現在，行政院長沒有找你開過會，針對名單或是其他的部分？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:56.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:21:59.674000+08:00","text":"沒有，只有當初要代理的時候有跟我講。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:21:59.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:22:00.795000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:22:01.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:22:14.696000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下，代理主委其實都已經把實話講出來，就是說現在行政院到底對於NCC委員的提名著不著急、嚴不嚴峻，或者是說認為重不重要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:22:15.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:22:25.608000+08:00","text":"我覺得要看行政院的態度，因為半年了，從去年11月到現在3月也已經快半年的時間，今年4月30號馬上就到了，到底名單什麼時候要提出來？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:22:25.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:22:34.616000+08:00","text":"名單沒有提出來，立法院沒有辦法審查，我們就沒有辦法給國人一個交代，所以現在是行政院持續拖延這個時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:22:34.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:23:01.282000+08:00","text":"另外一個部分，主委，在過完農曆年之後，行政院很罕見的不副署我們三讀通過的衛廣法修法，你剛剛也講了一個大白話，就是說行政院長在不副署前也沒有找你開過任何會，所以我們想請教，行政院認為衛廣法修法通過，沒有辦法依法行政的主要原因是什麼？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:23:03.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:23:05.168000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，根據行政院的新聞稿……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:23:05.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:23:20.832000+08:00","text":"根據行政院的新聞稿，所以現在代理主委告訴我們一個大白話，就是說在行政院長不副署前，也沒有找主管機關來開過會，也沒有問過主管機關的意見，也沒有問主管機關到底有沒有窒礙難行，是不是？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:23:21.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:23:30.315000+08:00","text":"你也是之後看行政院新聞稿才知道我們通過的法令被行政院不副署了，你覺得這是一個完整的行政流程嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:23:31.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:23:42.605000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，要補充一點，行政院的業管處有跟我們要當初衛廣法修正時的利弊分析，就是我們當時在交委會提供的意見，有素材提供給他。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:23:43.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:23:43.546000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:23:43.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:23:52.933000+08:00","text":"但是我們三讀通過的法令，結果行政院要不副署，連找主管機關來請教一下當初修法的過程是什麼都沒有。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:23:53.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:23:56.776000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下，為什麼本席那麼重視？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:23:56.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:24:14.590000+08:00","text":"因為衛廣法的修法其實我們是經過很嚴謹的過程，逐條審查、意見表達、委員會溝通、朝野協商，到最後真的沒有共識的時候，院會來做表決處理，哪一點不是符合我們所有的法令規定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:24:15.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:24:16.131000+08:00","text":"請教我們這次衛廣法通過的有幾條？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:24:16.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:24:16.612000+08:00","text":"照這邊的圖，加起來應該……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:24:26.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:24:27.619000+08:00","text":"1、2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10，10條對不對？是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:24:27.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:24:45.097000+08:00","text":"其中4條是不是在交通委員會、本席擔任召委的時候，我們就在這邊處理，並且是三個黨團有共識，NCC主管機關也在現場，沒有反對，所以我們在委員會就通過的，是不是？對、對。對，好。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:24:45.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:24:57.864000+08:00","text":"再來，第五條跟第五十條是不是送朝野協商之後，在院長主持的朝野協商，第五條跟第五十條也同意，所以沒有表決我們就通過了？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:24:59.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:25:08.210000+08:00","text":"而第十條跟第十七條，到最後民進黨沒有反對，所以是國民黨跟民眾黨的版本合併起來然後通過的，所以真正表決的有幾條？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:25:11.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:25:13.044000+08:00","text":"2條，第十八條跟第十九條，是不是？是。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:25:14.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:25:18.849000+08:00","text":"我先請教一下，我讓國人了解一下這個過程嚴謹的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:25:19.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:25:30.658000+08:00","text":"請教，院會表決，NCC沒有辦法參與，但是在前面的第一條、第二條、第十一條、第十五條跟第五條、第五十條、第十條、第十七條這8條，NCC有沒有在現場？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:25:32.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:25:35.560000+08:00","text":"在交委會、在召委主持的時候，我們都在場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:25:35.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:25:36.720000+08:00","text":"還有朝野協商的時候啊！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:25:37.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:25:39.741000+08:00","text":"朝野協商韓院長主持的時候我也在場。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:25:39.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:25:41.202000+08:00","text":"你也在場嘛。對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:25:41.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:08.555000+08:00","text":"所以兩個協商你都在場，因為這本來就是我們中華民國立法時的一個過程，行政部門一定在場，即便是在委員會三個黨團都同意，我講最沒有爭議的，第一條、第二條、第十一條、第十五條，國民黨、民眾黨、民進黨所有的委員同意通過，NCC也在現場，也沒有反對，所以這4條我們委員會就可以處理了對不對？是。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:10.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:17.240000+08:00","text":"第五條、第五十條、第十條、第十七條在朝野協商的時候可能有做文字修正，但是NCC有沒有表達意見？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:18.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:20.016000+08:00","text":"有適當地表達意見。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:20.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:28.450000+08:00","text":"也認為可以行使、也認為符合國人的期待，或是社會大眾對於這次修法的過程裡面，NCC是同意的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:30.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:32.603000+08:00","text":"就是有折衝過的部分我們是沒有反對意見。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:32.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:33.564000+08:00","text":"所以NCC同意？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:34.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:35.726000+08:00","text":"但是第十八條、第十九條我們是……","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:36.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:38.329000+08:00","text":"對，我先問這個，先不要進入第十八條、第十九條。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:39.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:40.070000+08:00","text":"NCC同意？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:40.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:40.671000+08:00","text":"有沒有同意？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:41.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:42.212000+08:00","text":"不反對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:42.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:44.014000+08:00","text":"不反對，不反對就是同意。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:44.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:51.706000+08:00","text":"再來，第十八條、第十九條在院會表決，到最後比數是多少你記得嗎？","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:51.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:26:52.667000+08:00","text":"即票數。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:26:52.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:27:09.709000+08:00","text":"第十九條是大家比較有爭議的或是說大家覺得這個東西可能NCC沒有辦法同意，但是沒有辦法嘛，因為立法院是多數決、合議制，所以到最後如果真的沒有共識的話，我們就是到議場去表決，表決到最後，第十九條有人反對嗎？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:27:09.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:27:09.969000+08:00","text":"當時紀錄好像是如召委所講的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:27:19.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:27:35.298000+08:00","text":"沒有人反對，60比0，國民黨、民眾黨的委員投下了同意票，民進黨的委員按出席，沒有反對，所以到最後是60人贊成、0人反對，立法院三讀通過法案。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:27:38.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:27:52.432000+08:00","text":"NCC我也看啦，第十九條相對比較有爭議，NCC第一時間也跳出來講它沒有設計回溯機制，所以沒有所謂外界傳言或是綠營網軍側翼在講的：哎呀，這有可能是中天復台。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:27:53.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:27:53.573000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:27:54.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:27:56.215000+08:00","text":"你們NCC怎麼講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:27:56.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:28:03.521000+08:00","text":"馬上第一時間發新聞稿，就是說它沒有回溯機制，所以它沒有存在所謂的復台不復台，是不是？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:28:04.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:28:05.350000+08:00","text":"這是面向之一。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:28:05.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:28:06.511000+08:00","text":"我講了那麼多我只想要講，你不覺得非常離譜嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:28:06.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:28:07.132000+08:00","text":"NCC還是獨立機關嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:28:07.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:29:10.204000+08:00","text":"當一個法條立法院三讀通過，而三讀通過的過程是委員會充分討論，民進黨、民眾黨、國民黨三個黨團都可以接受，委員會討論就有共識，NCC也沒有反對，NCC的專業意見是認為，第一條、第二條、第十一條、第十五條可以修，通過了，第五條、第五十條或第十條、第十七條是朝野協商的時候大家有共識，NCC也都有參與，所以也通過了，即便是沒有共識的第十八條、第十九條，沒有辦法，因為一定有些時候沒有共識嘛，這就是民主的常態，但進入我國立法的行政最後流程，就是院會表決的時候，沒有人反對，連民進黨在那邊叫復台，他們不敢反對，為什麼？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:29:10.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:29:11.164000+08:00","text":"因為他們後面也有壓力啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:29:11.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:29:11.804000+08:00","text":"不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:29:11.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:29:12.905000+08:00","text":"他們後面也有人說，其實這一條應該可以修啊！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:29:20.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:29:34.493000+08:00","text":"好嘛，所以他們不敢反對嘛，沒有人反對，結果現在整個三讀通過的法令送到了行政院，行政院沒有找NCC來開會，行政院院長沒有問一下NCC，這一條NCC有沒有窒礙難行之處？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:29:34.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:29:34.693000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:29:34.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:29:36.094000+08:00","text":"因為NCC都覺得這可以做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:29:36.094000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-25T09:29:37.354000+08:00","text":"我沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:29:37.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:29:50.028000+08:00","text":"結果到最後行政院院長以不副署來說我不執行，然後他的理由是說這違憲、有違憲之虞，說這違法，違了哪一個法？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:29:51.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:29:52.409000+08:00","text":"NCC在跟我們一起違法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:29:52.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:29:58.574000+08:00","text":"NCC在跟民進黨、民眾黨、國民黨團一起違法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:29:58.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:30:03.017000+08:00","text":"你不覺得這是中華民國憲政史上最黑暗的時刻？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:30:03.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:30:27.134000+08:00","text":"我拿這個例子，我必須要用我交通委員會今天的時間正告國人，如果說我們經過一個很嚴謹的修法程序、內容、流程，因為我擔任召委，所以我非常注重程序正義，為什麼要花那麼多時間逐條審查、一次詢答，詢答完畢之後我再一次才做逐條審查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:30:27.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:30:34.656000+08:00","text":"我排了兩次會就是要讓大家充分表達意見，我有沒有讓哪一個民進黨委員不能來發言？沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:30:35.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:30:59.789000+08:00","text":"民進黨委員要來講，我充分讓他講，講完之後讓NCC答復，所以我們才會凝聚那麼多共識，至少8個條文裡面是不用表決的，就已經朝野協商、可以二、三讀了，第十八條、第十九條沒有人反對，到最後表決，結果送到行政院，行政院沒有找主管機關，衛廣法的主管機關是誰？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:30:59.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:30:59.969000+08:00","text":"通傳會。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:31:02.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:31:02.904000+08:00","text":"NCC嘛！是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:31:03.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:31:05.025000+08:00","text":"國家通訊傳播委員會嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:31:05.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:31:11.807000+08:00","text":"結果行政院在不副署的時候，連找NCC主委來開會討論過都沒有！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:31:11.807000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-25T09:31:13.947000+08:00","text":"但事前我們有提供素材……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:31:13.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:31:15.228000+08:00","text":"所以你認為只要送資料？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:31:16.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:31:21.329000+08:00","text":"這麼重要的條文不副署，不用找你問一下NCC委員的意見？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:31:21.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:31:23.750000+08:00","text":"你的肩膀跟風骨在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:31:23.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:31:35.428000+08:00","text":"我不為難你，因為你是代理主委，說實在話，畢竟他沒有讓你真除，但是我的意思是如果你還要這樣子幫行政院硬拗，我看不下去！","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:31:36.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:32:05.154000+08:00","text":"因為這件事情，我覺得是大是大非的問題，行政院長可以一個人不副署，用一個本來不屬於他的權利，不副署是針對總統，如果他對總統有意見，總統公告之後他不副署，那是行政院院長跟總統的事，可是現在行政院長濫用這個權利，把它變成是行政院對於立法院三讀通過的法令的不尊重！","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:32:05.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:32:13.001000+08:00","text":"而這個立法院三讀通過的法令，在衛廣法這個部分是經過非常嚴謹的討論，至少上個會期我們已經討論了好幾個月。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:32:13.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:32:33.408000+08:00","text":"主委，如果看到這樣，大家都還可以唾面自乾，如果今天所有在場官員大家都還可以唾面自乾認為沒關係，反正行政院長他不副署，這也不是第一次了，是第五次！","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:32:34.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:32:37.249000+08:00","text":"他也不副署了5條，所以多一條沒關係啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:32:37.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:32:39.549000+08:00","text":"所以將來第六條、第七條、第八條也可以啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:32:40.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:33:09.191000+08:00","text":"那我們委員會不用開了，反正委員會在這邊……今天是NCC，明天是內政部，後天是數發部，在這邊即便達成共識，行政官員的專業可以跟立法委員大家充分溝通達成共識的條文，結果送出去了，到行政院那邊，只要行政院覺得不滿意，行政院覺得臉面掛不住，行政院覺得這跟他的顏色不一樣，他就不副署，那以後立法院所有送出三讀通過的法令都可以這樣玩！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:33:09.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:33:24.629000+08:00","text":"主委，身為參與的人，你也是歷史的一分子，我們大家現在都在共創歷史，但這個歷史是中華民國憲政體制史上最黑暗的歷史！","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:33:25.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:33:26.170000+08:00","text":"因為這代表什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:33:26.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:33:54.366000+08:00","text":"代表行政權凌駕立法權，立法院三讀通過的法令，行政院只要不喜歡，他可以否決立法院通過的法令，即便這個法令修法的時候有行政部門一起參加，然後他可以不管主管機關的意見，他可以不尊重獨立機關行使獨立機關權力的時刻，因為行政院長大於獨立機關，這就是他展現的傲慢跟態度！","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:33:58.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:34:00.401000+08:00","text":"無話可說！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:34:00.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:34:01.541000+08:00","text":"真的沒有話可說！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:34:01.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:34:04.142000+08:00","text":"因為我說真的，我也不知道你要怎麼樣幫他辯護啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:34:04.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:34:15.207000+08:00","text":"因為你也很納悶，說實在話，行政院長不副署的時候也沒找你開會，你連跟他說No都不行，你連跟他說，院長，其實那8條我們都討論過，都不行啊！","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:34:15.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:34:15.687000+08:00","text":"你都沒有機會！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T09:34:15.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:34:18.929000+08:00","text":"我們有提供交通委員會委員表達的意見。是嘛！","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:34:19.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:34:23.457000+08:00","text":"所以你還是再一次強調，但你越強調一次就越代表行政院長傲慢！","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:34:24.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:34:34.565000+08:00","text":"因為行政院長在不副署的時候連找主管機關、連花個時間找你過來問一下到底通過的流程，以及會不會違憲、會不會窒礙難行、有沒有違法之虞，他都不願意！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:34:37.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:34:38.448000+08:00","text":"這就是現在的民進黨政府！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:34:40.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:34:46.595000+08:00","text":"如果國人還看不清楚的話，那真的大家以後就接受行政院獨大吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:34:47.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:06.232000+08:00","text":"所以這也是我們今天在講的，政黨都會輪替，但是重要的是法治精神跟那個過程，國民黨執政過，國民黨也因為程序被人家說過程怎麼樣，所以當初2016年民眾選擇了淘汰國民黨，讓國民黨在野。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:06.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:21.464000+08:00","text":"過去這10年，我們一步一步地讓立法權越來越緊縮，行政權獨大，然後NCC一個號稱獨立的機關，結果沒想到我們修一個法令被行政院長這樣子狠狠地羞辱，我覺得這是本席最看不下去的！","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:21.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:28.750000+08:00","text":"如果說民眾大家還看得下去的話，我真的不知道臺灣未來會走向怎麼樣！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:28.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:32.052000+08:00","text":"我真的希望國人能夠了解這個狀況！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:32.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:33.834000+08:00","text":"這是為什麼我今天要把全部都講清楚。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:35.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:35:42.784000+08:00","text":"我會在總質詢的時候再問行政院長，我會問一樣的問題，我看他怎麼唾面自乾。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:35:43.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:36:01.387000+08:00","text":"但我要講的是，主委或是代理主委，為中華民國人民服務是一件很光榮的事情，如果說沒有任何風骨，或是說遇到任何問題不能勇於挺身而出講話的話，我覺得我也會對你表達遺憾！","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:36:02.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:36:07.022000+08:00","text":"每個禮拜四的行政院會你有參加，過去幾個禮拜你參加過幾次了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:36:08.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:36:15.065000+08:00","text":"行政院長不副署的時候，你也沒有站起來表達一下相關意見！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-03-25T09:36:15.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T09:36:16.246000+08:00","text":"感謝，我質詢到此結束，謝謝。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-25T09:36:16.746000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-25T09:36:20.174571+08:00","text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員，謝謝陳主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-25T09:36:20.474571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-25T09:36:23.617429+08:00","text":"接下來請陳清龍委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}