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細選回例所謂的PM0.1我國空管制政策如何精進提升保障國人健康安全進行專題報告並被質詢那現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員"},{"start":1767.635,"end":1794.098,"text":"第一位是陳昭之城委員再來是林月琴林委員還有王志旭王委員再來是環境部常務次長沈志修還有大氣環境司司長黃偉明"},{"start":1797.346,"end":1824.69,"text":"氣候變遷署署長蔡玲怡化學物質管理署署長謝彥儒資源循環署副署長林建山環境管理署副署長劉瑞祥國際環境研究院副院長吳月春綜合規劃師市長洪淑慶環境保護師市長許淑慈"},{"start":1826.368,"end":1835.77,"text":"水質保護師師長王玉斌監測資訊師師長張順興寡資處處長林芬還有交通部公共運輸及監理師師長林福山綜合規劃師專門委員陳韻如謝謝行政師檢任計政段維平謝謝"},{"start":1855.365,"end":1880.469,"text":"教育部資訊及科技教育師副市長邱仁傑國民及學前教育署專門委員薛承佑還有衛生福利部國民健康署組長劉家秀醫事師檢驗基政卓立平經濟部人員署代理署長李鈞儀國營事業管理師檢驗基政林柏湘"},{"start":1885.864,"end":1905.083,"text":"臺灣中油股運有限公司副處長黃志堅臺灣第二股運有限公司專業總工程師溫元正接下來請環境部省次長來做報告"},{"start":1920.208,"end":1940.214,"text":"主席 各位委員還有我們部會同仁還有媒體朋友 大家早安 大家好環境部今天來專案報告因應歐盟管制抄襲嫌污違例PM0.1我國空污管制的策略如何精進提升來保障國人的健康安全"},{"start":1943.1,"end":1964.58,"text":"那今天簡報分三個部分跟大家來做一個報告那我們都知道超細鹹物為例就是比PM2.5甚至PM1還要小的為例指的是PM0.1它的大小大概是頭髮的七百分之一我們就可以大概去想像它真的是很細 細到我們一般人體的"},{"start":1965.481,"end":1979.29,"text":"防疫機制沒有辦法去把它做抵禦所以它很容易進到我們的會部甚至會進到我們的學藝裡面那歐盟呢他也對這個部分的定義就是他要小於0.1微米的直徑"},{"start":1982.213,"end":2002.389,"text":"那世界衛生組織第一次是在2021年開始他重視到這樣的一個議題他把他納入的全球空氣品質的一個指引那他為什麼會納進來主要是因為他會增加全身性的一個發炎那心肺疾病的發生的風險等等那因為現在目前健康的證據比較少"},{"start":2003.77,"end":2018.589,"text":"所以沒有訂定這個濃度的限值那歐盟在去年的11月也發布的空瓶指令規範各國在兩年之內就是規範歐盟的會員國在2026年就是明年的12月12號之前要開始來進行監測抄襲前五為例"},{"start":2023.033,"end":2048.525,"text":"那過去都是用質量 濃度來監控我們PM10 PM2.5那因為它實在太細了 超細纖維力只有0.1所以用刻度 樹木濃度來代表所以一般的單位都會用每立方公分多少顆來呈現那以現在世界衛生組織所進行的監測發現"},{"start":2051.846,"end":2065.863,"text":"大概在城市地區特別是在道路交通頻繁的地方或者是航空航運運輸可能是PM0.1的一個主要來源當然工廠排放也是PM0.1的一個來源"},{"start":2068.717,"end":2096.706,"text":"那臺灣呢在112年底開始我們就開始部署了北中南的PM0.1的一個監測那首先是在112年的10月那我們跟臺大航空所這邊的教授來開始合作進行那這個車站是擺在基隆路長興街口那這個實驗還持續在進行當中那另外我們在高雄的部分那在去年的時候我們跟"},{"start":2098.126,"end":2120.681,"text":"美國的太空總署NASA合作那國內有15所大學有40位教授也參與這樣的一個研究計畫那開始在進行這個特別高頻地區的像垂直的它的這個污染分布的情況那這部分也有把0.1的部分把它納進來那中部的部分我們也開始在今年有進行策戰"},{"start":2124.67,"end":2146.403,"text":"那從這個台大這個實驗裡面我們發現的確是這個PM0.1跟這個交通來源是有關的特別是在上班的上下班的監控時刻跟不是上班的監控時刻對比就非常的明顯那另外在這個NASA的這個計畫我們在高雄的一個進行那我們也得到了一個"},{"start":2148.104,"end":2168.906,"text":"結果就是如果能夠降低這個PM2.5的前驅物硝酸鹽的話那對於管制PM2.5是有幫助的那如果要去管制PM0.1就會跟這個空氣中的有機成分會有相關性那這些試驗的結果都可以列為我們台灣未來在管制PM0.1的時候很重要的一些參考"},{"start":2170.814,"end":2188.006,"text":"那其實我們跟歐盟一樣我們對於新車的部分已經都開始將這個微粒的這個樹木納入排放的管制標準所以這個是新車的一個管制標準那對於使用中的柴油車呢那我們正在研擬當然這個部分我們也會跟歐盟來接軌"},{"start":2190.592,"end":2219.491,"text":"那過去是從這個質量來管制現在從數量來管制剛剛也一開始有特別報告因為它會進到我們的血液循環那會影響我們健康那因為它粒徑很小所以它的表面積比表面積相對就會很大它會吸附一些這個更多的有害的健康物質所以它特別需要特別重視那環境部在去年底的時候我們也來試著跟國人報告就是說我們要來制定一個空品白筆書那我們也"},{"start":2220.892,"end":2232.12,"text":"花了一段時間來讓全民許願當時大家也對於這一個交通污染源的部分有特別的關注 待會也會跟各位做一個報告"},{"start":2234.98,"end":2250.577,"text":"那空瓶白皮書我們在今年的5月16號就發表了那這裡面我們會提到這個全民永續的健康的部分特別我們會建置這個健康導向的空瓶目標也會注意這個兒少的這個校園的防護那在工業"},{"start":2251.678,"end":2274.611,"text":"健康污染這個部分我們會強化有害空氣污染的一個管制那對於新興的空氣污染 像PFARS等等我們也會進行一些管理那交通源的部分呢當然全國這個運氣電動化的推動會帶來共立 共減污的效果那我們也會加強管制這個高污染的一些車輛那我們也開始在注意的這個民生的生活"},{"start":2275.151,"end":2294.326,"text":"我們在家裡面煮飯的時候我們廚房的機具我們熱水器等等那民生的消費會使用到含VOC成分的這些商品或者是油煙餐飲業 夜市等等這個都會被我們注意到那這個也是在許願池的時候民眾有對這個部分特別提出來關注的"},{"start":2295.367,"end":2323.408,"text":"那過去我們在管制這個PM2.5的部分我們從這個102年從當時的每年年平均24維克每立方公尺一直到去年已經降到12.8維克每立方公尺那我們在116年我們定了13然後119年我們把它定到10那124年降到8那最終的目標希望能夠跟世界衛生組織的最終目標"},{"start":2325.55,"end":2349.619,"text":"來追尋那這個健康風險的管理我們會先從這個風險熱區特別是工業區等等我們會加強這個油壓健康物質的管制然後跟企業自主減量來協談等等那對於這個高氧臭氧的高生成物的部分我們要進行一些管制那對於新型污染部分我們要及時掌控"},{"start":2351.465,"end":2369.222,"text":"那未來我們一定要攜手各部會包括就是我們跟交通部門運輸部門這邊我們硬具電動化繼續推動然後提升公共運輸的量能那能源轉型的部分我們會跟能源部門來繼續推這個再生能源然後電力業的這個低污染"},{"start":2370.003,"end":2392.766,"text":"燃料的一個推動那高碳排過因失業的減排減汙等等那農業部分呢我們也會跟農業部這邊攜手就是在農業農廢的去化合理精準的施肥改善臭液味等等那麼直升淨化空氣品質那住商部門的部分我們推廣節能營建工程低碳工法等等還有低碳建材等等"},{"start":2394.468,"end":2409.503,"text":"那剛剛有特別提到就是在這個許願的部分那我們也收集了319項的這個民眾的許願那民眾比較關心的還是在這個交通污染源、工業污染源還有民生益善污染源這幾項"},{"start":2412.06,"end":2430.925,"text":"事實上交通污染也是PM0.1的重要的一個來源所以民眾建議呢政府能夠繼續推這個車輛電動化大眾交通工具然後對特定的地區要來限制這個運具的一個限制等等露天燃燒加強稽查等等這個都是民眾所關心的空污的議題"},{"start":2432.525,"end":2456.702,"text":"那如何精進呢我們也會在未來我們會去提升這個燃油的品質然後劃定空品維護區然後注意除了這個排放之外非排放源包括像煞車啦輪胎等等都可能會造成這個PM的部分我們都會加強來管制那對於車輛的定期檢測以及怠速的一個加強的這個攔檢等等"},{"start":2459.517,"end":2488.032,"text":"那未來呢我們會跟歐盟接軌我們會對這個超細鹹物為例開始進行監測 歐盟是在明年底的時候要求會員股開始監測那我們已經提前了開始在進行了那這個部分進行檢測之後我們就會得到這個污染的來源當我們掌握到污染來源的時候我們就可以進一步來對污染來源進行管制那以上是我們今天的一個報告請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":2495.54,"end":2522.968,"text":"好 謝謝沈社長的報告那有關於本市會議各項說明資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在來做詢問以下宣告第一 本會議委員詢問時間6加2分鐘 列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止法院登記 委員如果順便質詢 請於上面前提出 議席不受理暫定10點半 休息10分鐘那原則上11點30處理原則提案 10點半截止收案那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員來做法演"},{"start":2528.486,"end":2529.248,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長"},{"start":2536.804,"end":2553.232,"text":"市長 市長 部長在5月12號行政院會時有提到移動污染源的這個污染量已經超過了固定污染源的這個污染量他提到這個事 那我們延續這個基礎我想跟環境部討論這個空氣品質監測在眾多種類還有很多種類當中的空交通空氣這個品質監測的問題那有關中央設置的這個固定的"},{"start":2561.756,"end":2586.586,"text":"交通空氣品質監測站當初環境部是選擇在這個交通流量繁忙的路口希望他能夠如實去反映這個污染源對於行人還有用路人的一個暴露狀態來保護提醒這個民眾的健康但是我現在了解中央設置的監測站只有六座只有六座那請問次長台灣難道只有這六處是交通繁忙嗎繁忙區嗎"},{"start":2588.547,"end":2605.908,"text":"那我再說再加上柯文哲當市長的時候他在台北市設了三站地方政府桃園市台中市也各設一站所以整個台灣目前僅僅只有11個固定交通車站對比台灣的交通狀況其實是很不夠的市長你有掌握這個資訊嗎"},{"start":2607.29,"end":2625.023,"text":"好那這樣就是說不但是不夠而且我跟市長說明一下這個分布很不均目前環境部設置的固定交通側站雙北加上桃園有四座高雄有兩座從新竹到台南地區甚至一座都沒有"},{"start":2625.823,"end":2649.142,"text":"但是台灣西半部幾乎每個縣市在交通尖峰的時間都會有塞車問題那麼行人加上機車族每天上下班塞在那個車鎮中民眾都會長時間暴露在可能的這個致癌的空氣污染中但是目前卻只有北高受到比較多的關注那其他縣市好像就淪為次等公民了那請問次長你覺得你要承諾做這個改善嗎"},{"start":2650.339,"end":2676.367,"text":"是跟委員報告的確委員所講的數字都對剛剛的提出的這個指教就是我們的全國空氣品質的先車站中央有70%站地方有34站但是如果以專屬的交通車站來講只有11站確實是有不足可是過去的空氣污染的管制我們是從工廠慢慢的逐步到現在我們已經把交通的當作是比較"},{"start":2676.667,"end":2703.202,"text":"既然您今天的報告0.1嘛 所要來源是交通來源那我們就開始要在這邊加強交通是要被注意的請部長看這個圖 看左邊這張圖這是新北市永和的交通空品車站它離地是3公尺 那就在人行道旁邊的另外右邊這張是頂樓的一般車站離地大概12公尺以上我想請問次長哪一個可以真正反映交通族通勤族吸進去的空氣呢"},{"start":2706.724,"end":2730.678,"text":"是離地3公尺的還是我們都知道排氣的位置跟人體呼吸越接近的地方當然那個就能夠精準的反應好這個是一個共識那我們之前都提到PM2.5是一個長期的毒害但是剛剛你也提到醫生說要偵測包括一氧化碳甚至氮氧化物等是立即的有一些這個呼吸道的感染或心血管的風險那交通車站跟一般車站我現在就暫時這樣分開"},{"start":2734.901,"end":2750.942,"text":"他們的差別就是在離採樣口距離地面遠近來比那比起一般交通站其實更能夠反映民眾他的生活當中他暴露的一個情況對嗎你剛剛也提到這一點"},{"start":2752.183,"end":2779.563,"text":"他比較能夠測出這個高風險那但是根據空氣品質啊監測監測站的設置及監測標準準則這條準則這個交通空氣的品質的監測站應該設置在交通流量比較頻繁或是反應可能因為交通的這個高排放所造成的污染的地區所以部長次長您同意這個空氣交通空氣品質監測站很重要嗎您覺得很重要要不要增加要不要增加"},{"start":2780.595,"end":2796.331,"text":"我們很務實的去檢討那過去的過去是從工業污染嘛現在轉為這個我們也重視到這個交通跟民生的部分所以我們也規劃了我們會在未來包括像中部跟南部都需要增加"},{"start":2798.012,"end":2822.358,"text":"日本從一開始就有控管2.5但它同時間會公佈什麼公佈一般策戰跟交通策戰的數據但是我國目前只有一般空氣策戰的法源依據因為你剛剛根據我剛剛提到的這個空氣品質監測站的設置及監測準則它有明定的陰設像右邊這個圖它有明定陰設的戰術的最低數量但是交通策戰的硬體是好像不受重視那個就是說"},{"start":2826.059,"end":2845.887,"text":"次長您同不同意要修正第四條第二項一般空氣品質建設站以外的其他種類應該也把交通測站的設置專注寫在裡面因為目前是寫這幾個字次長你有看到嗎是實際需要設置之這幾例很空泛很主觀隨人解釋你有考慮再做修正嗎把它寫入準則中"},{"start":2853.257,"end":2882.537,"text":"跟國民報告其實是實際需要我們現在就是實際需要的時候所以這個沒有問題那我會每次一直改那我們保留這樣的東西其實這樣的一個文字就有這樣的一個機制在尤其我們今天談交通嘛你也覺得說今天我們討論的主題就是來自交通源嘛 污染源嘛那你這個部分之前就有一般的那個策展就有數字的規定嘛minimum最少要怎麼放那這個地方要考慮一下好嗎"},{"start":2883.377,"end":2901.014,"text":"有問題嗎我們就事實繼續要我們來檢討市長昨天有多位醫師跟環保團體召開記者會要呼籲說PM205應該要加嚴管道這個0.1號剛剛這個主席開宗明義也有講那上週這個劉建偉劉建國交委也跟台灣健康空氣行動聯盟創會理事長葉光鵬醫師也召開記者會他們訴求環境部也應該要加嚴管制"},{"start":2906.76,"end":2925.051,"text":"0.1 他沒有舉出許多證據剛剛報告稍微提到空氣汙染就會傷害到腦部健康現在證明可能跟成年人的失智也有關聯當然根據我的醫學背景越細只要越細無孔不入全身都跑可能進入血液跟組織所以他走到哪裡傷害到哪裡"},{"start":2925.971,"end":2950.081,"text":"所以這個是就是非常擔心的事而且這個東西不是戴口罩一般的醫療口罩就能夠處理的所以你剛剛也提到既然PM0.1我們今天的主角是來自交通員的這個管制為主那我想說你也開始做了一些研究嘛跟大學合作我剛剛有才聽到這樣的部分這個也很好但是這個我想請教這些策戰離地面有多遠"},{"start":2953.134,"end":2970.424,"text":"就是您在合作的單位上他監測的這個0.1他的離地面有多遠就是那個車站就是設在像台大皇宮所那個就是長興街跟基隆路三段那個路口那個就設在直接擺在車站就擺在地面上"},{"start":2972.542,"end":2993.858,"text":"離地面比較近我們剛剛提到你這是交通來源嘛你要撤交通來源的污染源一定這個監測站就是不能夠是像一般的公司嗎是這樣做嗎我想學者應該是不會犯下這個錯那你什麼時候要開始擴大你開始起步了有沒有要擴大你的規劃的進度我們現在是這樣就是說因為歐盟也是明年"},{"start":2994.699,"end":3009.155,"text":"抵著開始要求會員股還是監測嘛是 當然是那個我們是北 台北這邊先這一站然後我們現在是在台中有兩站高雄會設三站就除了剛剛講那個交通站之外另外的這六站市長"},{"start":3009.636,"end":3027.692,"text":"我現在不敢說很嚴肅的問題2020年台東市政府依法開罰綜合1800萬結果當時的環保署卻禁制撤銷罰單那上星期台北高等法院一審判決表明環境部沒有權利撤銷地方政府的裁罰處分那依照地方制度法只有行政院"},{"start":3028.393,"end":3034.035,"text":"才能夠撤銷變更停止或廢止的事情換句話說當時環保署進行撤銷台中市政府對台電的這個開發是違法是這個越權是程序不當請問你知道當時是誰做這個決定嗎誰把它撤銷掉跟委員報告要不要處分"},{"start":3045.319,"end":3063.156,"text":"是 這個沒有因為這個審判還在進行當中還沒有終結所以不會在這個時候進行處問我們要講的是這一次的法院的裁定並沒有說台中市是合法的喔他只是說我們在程序上那我要跟委員報告如果委員有時間我可以我可以說明"},{"start":3065.357,"end":3089.107,"text":"我們要去看那個為什麼台中市是違法的我們有一些論述啦但是因為時間上可能不夠說明這個部分我也把今天把這些文字就放在這個投影片上我簡單講就是這個是最壞的那個官官相互的示範不是絕對不是中央政府跟地方政府全國各縣市的環保局環保單位都必須要維護全民的環境空氣品質很重要但是要依法行政"},{"start":3089.767,"end":3093.469,"text":"法官是從程序面來判斷這件事情但是沒有對實質進行審判他是依法執行"},{"start":3105.976,"end":3131.317,"text":"那台中市民飽受這個中火的這個污染它是污染大戶嘛我們也承認嘛齁那地方政府行使職權為人民主張工作結果你環境部不是支持卻把罰單撤銷掉不是我們要求地方政府要遵守職權要保障所有事業及國民的所有依法的事情不然我們就亂掉了啊空法就沒有辦法依法去執行啊那個動作就違法程序嘛不我們必須這是環境部的職責各位報告這是環境部的職責我們必須要上訴"},{"start":3135.865,"end":3141.348,"text":"好你要上訴所以換句話說你們沒有認錯你們沒有認錯你們要繼續上訴要耗費這個行政資源護航中國護航中國不是護航誰今天任何一個產業或是任何一個國民在政府不依法行政的時候"},{"start":3151.994,"end":3178.692,"text":"政府就必須要去導政你們沒有權利做事行政院才有權利做這件事跟委員報告現在只是高等行政法院一審而已還沒有到最終市長你的解釋我們大家大概都會很驚訝反正就是說你已經被法院裁決了但是事實上你們覺得你還要繼續上訴我們跟律師有討論過律師也是做這樣的建議跟委員報告我們環境部不能失職謝謝委員的指教謝謝主席謝謝陳委員 謝謝市長"},{"start":3182.182,"end":3184.884,"text":"接下來請林月琴委員來做宣導麻煩次長有請次長委員好上早齁"},{"start":3210.868,"end":3238.296,"text":"很高興看到我們的環境部開始探討我們國際近來關注的超細懸浮微粒的PM0.1的議題了那PM0.1對健康的危害我想今年來很多國際的研究都有在做那環境部大概去年也編了800萬那委託臺大的專業團隊在進行研究報導中大對環境部的建議從污染物偵測到內容調整到"},{"start":3240.502,"end":3263.78,"text":"減少移動污染的影響都有在報告裡邊報告去年事實上都已經事實上是結案了現在半年過去了 針對這份研究建議環境部到底有沒有優先設定要優先處理的項目有沒有清楚的你的執行目標跟期程因為報告裡邊很非常清楚的指出"},{"start":3265.001,"end":3281.544,"text":"交通污染事實上是都市區超細懸浮為例的主要來源可是環團指出目前環境部在台中設置的5座固定式的空氣品質監測站當中沒有任何一個空氣"},{"start":3282.945,"end":3304.043,"text":"空瓶的交通的空瓶的監測站為什麼這樣提上環境環境權保障基金會他們就提到說如果按照台中市的空氣污染物的排放清澈來看的話交通空污事實上是台中主要的空污來源主要的來源之一可是為什麼只有設這樣子的做的固定的可是完全"},{"start":3304.71,"end":3333.511,"text":"又沒有交通的空瓶的那個監測站顯然跟台中市移動污染源的份量不成比例所以想問市長到底要不要評估真實跟委員報告其實我們有注意到這個問題因為過去可能台中市政府都把重點放在一個固定污染源去只要管制好那個污染源讓所有的空氣品質都改善其實不然那這個報告也告訴我們說移動式的污染源其實才是我們應該要關心要注意的"},{"start":3333.931,"end":3351.937,"text":"那一開始我也有報告說全國設了78個空品建設站是環境部設的地方政府有34個啊如果地方政府覺得重要地方政府可以加設這個我想台北市就設了三個交通站嘛那我要跟委員報告說沒有關係PM0.1這個部分現在是歐盟明年開始要撤了"},{"start":3352.577,"end":3376.949,"text":"但是我們現在會在台中市的我們在什麼地方呢我們在台灣大道車輛最多的那個台灣大道我們在西屯站會各設一個那針對PM0.1的部分有了這個監測資料之後我們就可以開始找出這一個污染的來源然後找出對策因為我覺得這很重要都已經事實上從他們的排放清澈裡面也看出來"},{"start":3377.769,"end":3406.009,"text":"交通空污事實上是台中最主要污染的來源之一我就要趕快去做處理那同樣的就現在環境部事實上剛剛我們陳昭志委員有提到說整個大概只有設一共設六站那應該看起來是不夠而且比較偏向北部所以我想問說你現在設置的評估標準是什麼否則為什麼就是只有六站可是今天又提到交通空污這部分事實上"},{"start":3406.431,"end":3430.285,"text":"也是好來源之一的話那整個台灣裡面難道只有北部的空交通空污是比較嚴重嗎就委員報告就是說我們過去的78站的設置主要都是在靠近工業區的部分跟我們民生影響有會比較大的地方大家重視就是工廠排放黑煙嘛但想法都是這樣設置的那台北本來就是工廠會跟中南部比起來是相對少"},{"start":3431.045,"end":3458.172,"text":"那反而是交通的部分是比較頻繁的所以台北市會設比較多的交通站過去這個是合乎邏輯的但是今天我們已經開始發現到交通的污染源已經串到上面的時候我們就要去做一些對策的改變所以交通車站未來一定是我們會去重視的特別是今天這個議題召委主持的這個會議上面我們對PM0.1的部分要開始關注了"},{"start":3458.692,"end":3480.993,"text":"未來會要納入到超細懸浮微粒的監測是可能嗎那今天環境部的大專案報告當中也指出就是說更細的超細懸浮微粒對兒童健康的事實上是有潛在風險其實更應該被重視我想提醒部長三月次長這邊"},{"start":3482.514,"end":3509.667,"text":"3月17號我第一次質詢校園空屋的時候就提到你們要三個月交資料給我到上週你們的確給我的正式公文就簡簡單單的大概就這麼一頁我問了四個提向要你們做的東西就這樣子然後基本上環境部的內容就是把查到的資料再貼一次然後再告訴我一次說有開會"},{"start":3510.632,"end":3539.982,"text":"準備調查那4月17日事實上我也是再度的有在質詢同樣的議題可是同樣的也是得到的資料就是這麼的簡單部長上個月我跟地球公民基金會一起開了一個記者會那民間單位靠google地圖跟開放資料就先把特殊性的工業區的周邊的學校都盤點出來了那我期待張子我期待是環境部是不是可以盤點的更完整更有行動可是人家"},{"start":3540.762,"end":3562.527,"text":"簡單的用Google就可以盤那我不知道你們盤了三個月還不能盤然後給我一個A4一張的公文裡邊交代四項我期待的要做的事情那像這樣的你可以看到像這樣的學校500公尺就有超過4500個小朋友在這些學校要上學那旁邊是大車不斷經過還緊鄰石化廠"},{"start":3564.887,"end":3579.529,"text":"不管是PM2.5還是PM0.1破裂風險都很高所以今天要問次長的是就環境部目前的規劃以這幾間 我就是說不要談太多就以這幾間學校為例吧你們怎麼打算加強 怎麼打算加強防腐啊"},{"start":3582.733,"end":3601.541,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們簡單講就是說其實今天在座的有很多部會都跟我們這個議題有相關我們提出了一個如何降低校園空氣污染的影響我們有四成的一個防護跟委員報告第一層防護我們要跟教育部合作今天那個邱副市長也是"},{"start":3605.163,"end":3621.555,"text":"你有沒有清楚的監控跟列管機制還有能不能比照現在現行法規裡面的健康風險評估技術規範把降低環境風險水準當成目標來面對學校的狀況每天孩子都生活在那邊他必須要上學"},{"start":3623.12,"end":3649.739,"text":"之前就一直在提醒你們所以每一個月幾乎有通話環境部的我都來質詢這一個提向所以也請你們是不是應該要注意到能不能還給孩子一個很好的空氣的一個學校環境所以次長我知道你事實上是你們整個環境部都是願意做事的人可是有些規劃部裡邊也有在進行我針對你們提出來的校園五大防護也有提出建議"},{"start":3650.629,"end":3670.93,"text":"那希望你們這邊能夠盯緊一點至少優先分級列管 特殊性我覺得先不要要求太多那至少特殊性工業區附近風險明顯的學校以學生健康為主的一個排序所以次長 這個工廠周邊的校園盤點跟應對鏡"},{"start":3673.432,"end":3696.917,"text":"策略到底什麼時候會完成如果民間團體用Google表徵都可以盤得出來那不知道你們盤出來因為盤出來才後面有對應策略嗎跟委員報告我們已經盤出來有18個學校那我們會跟環保團體這邊再來開會然後提出一個管制的策略然後我們會及時的跟委員這邊做一個報告可是我也要提醒因為特殊性工業區現在問題是"},{"start":3698.797,"end":3727.617,"text":"社區跟那個校園的學生師生對當地污染的實際狀況都缺乏知情權他們並不是了解到整個的狀況所以除了更友善易懂的監測資訊主動接入可不可以在上課期間只要監測到空污異常超標的話就要及時通知學校讓學生這時候這個時間至少先不要到戶外活動來保護健康所以這樣這部分要做到有沒有困難"},{"start":3728.697,"end":3756.863,"text":"就是你現在現階段不可能很立即的至少可不可以讓學生這時候師生都知道先減少戶外的一個活動如果一監測到馬上通知學校有辦法做到嗎是這個本來就是在防護的機制裡面要共同去做的這一項就是說從外部監測到的一個是從學校裡面自己發現的部分那立即跟當地的環保局怎麼樣去連結通報這個很重要那如果是從外部監測到的當然要提醒這個我們會要求"},{"start":3757.563,"end":3786.789,"text":"所以接下來我也會針對那些學校來瞭解說你們在做什麼還有我當初我們辦公室就提出你的五大防護那我們提出四項所以希望你們在學校空屋通報的列管追蹤機制還有裝設空氣濾鏡防護設備的效益跟設施裝設標準那也盡快說明一個月內然後要給我答案不要再給我的東西事實上是複製貼上的東西我對那些東西我"},{"start":3787.89,"end":3812.51,"text":"看了幾遍了在這幾天又連續的有高溫根據衛福部的資料大概今年5月熱傷害的人數比去年同期增加了6成那現在6月都還沒有結束單月的熱傷害的人數就逼近400人所以我現在還是要關心的是環境部的抗高溫政策究竟要怎麼跟社福系統對接因為上次我提過"},{"start":3813.191,"end":3821.214,"text":"無家者安置機構甚至弱勢家庭他們事實上對於抗高溫這件事情事實上是"},{"start":3821.801,"end":3848.929,"text":"難以去做處理所以辦公室大概也一直有參與你們的相關會議包括抗高溫的對策的大會也有了解到你們跟社福團體有開會的內容所以想問次長你針對於我們的能源貧窮的問題要透過內政部的大數據來鎖定政策對象能不能具體說明一下你們所說的大數據要怎麼去比對出能源貧窮的對象"},{"start":3850.899,"end":3867.507,"text":"我請我們蔡署長說明一下跟委員說明我們現在首先是因為包括衛福部他們已經有這個包括這個就是弱勢的這些是有上面列的嗎什麼老人人口清澈獨居老人的清澈台電用電的數據"},{"start":3868.948,"end":3887.03,"text":"那這些真的可以比對的出來嗎我們現在要進行的是對於區位就是希望說在分布上面那會配合就因為有這個可能會從六都縣開始對你們優仙縣目前示範的是獨居長者有特別的原因那其他族群呢"},{"start":3887.697,"end":3910.443,"text":"其他族群的話我們必須還是要透過設政單位那現在有可能的是跟這個已經有資源的包括衛福部還有內政部來做討論那跟委員報告因為我們6月3號才啟動這個聯盟所以會在7月的部分趕快來把這些工作來做一個分工根據歐盟跟其他國家經驗要處理能源貧窮的最重要的"},{"start":3911.383,"end":3935.838,"text":"第一步就是要清楚辨識目標族群跟實際需求因為貧窮不只是沒有錢所以所有各國政策也不會只有發錢還會配套服務跟資源所以我們今天談的政策也都參考歐盟經驗歐盟在2023年更新的能源效率指令已經明確定義能源貧窮所以希望說我們要先定義清楚才能夠"},{"start":3936.658,"end":3953.301,"text":"要找到數據是什麼 不過你定義不清楚很難做所以也要求各國要根據指引來處理民眾的基本生存跟健康需求好像這個包括像是長期欠繳能源費用的或住家環境"},{"start":3953.854,"end":3970.69,"text":"耗能評估和缺乏必要節能加電這些都是一個指標所以我希望你們這邊可以納入最後想問一下次長參考歐盟台灣現在到底有沒有可以更快的去訂出我們對於能源貧窮提出清楚的定義"},{"start":3971.451,"end":3992.04,"text":"還有相關的法規指引可能要相對應的趕快弄出來你剛剛提到的那個特別是那個弱勢的族群那我們一直在講太舊換新就是提高效能這個部分他們連那個最基本要太舊都沒有那你太舊之後你可以節省電費你可以提高能源效率那這個部分我們跟經濟部這邊會來你們要趕快談否則的話你們事實上有"},{"start":3994.981,"end":4018.269,"text":"自己要自負額的話我覺得如果弱勢家庭他根本沒有辦法拿出來所以就不能取得簡單的一些電器用品那最後他們就是越催用越窮所以麻煩你們一個月給我相關的資料好 謝謝好 謝謝林委員的宣導接下來請陳清輝委員來做宣導"},{"start":4026.693,"end":4029.666,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位官員我想請次長來 次長"},{"start":4036.895,"end":4064.378,"text":"市長您好您好剛剛非常遺憾有看到陳昭芝委員關於詢問您這個台中市政府跟環境部之間的訴訟這個已經判決雖然一審判決啊台灣高等法院行政法院一審判決說環境部是沒有這個職責的環境部也不應該去撤銷這個罰單那你剛剛已經很明確的說到了環境部會上訴嘛是不是是那我們是很遺憾因為"},{"start":4066.461,"end":4088.347,"text":"這個中火影響人民的健康是大家都知道的事情你就算到WHO的網站你也會看到不管是PM多少都跟Power Generation有相關可是你一直在強調這些移動交通的污染源我認為台中市民看起來會非常的寒心畢竟自從核電研議之後他們每天都會上台電的網站去看"},{"start":4089.187,"end":4114.125,"text":"白天的時候就突破了九成夜晚沒有綠電可以支援的時候更是到95%變成一個火燒島剛剛也有告訴你了這幾天聯合報就有一個專題講到我們國人的十大死因幾乎十大死因都跟空污有相關喔空污影響了什麼新血管這是現任的衛福部部長以前當委員的時候質詢的"},{"start":4115.846,"end":4136.643,"text":"影響到肺 影響到氣喘影響到肺部的疾病 影響到腦等等全身各處都跟空污有相關我想知道當時呢你們對於他廢水的這個懸浮物被裁罰了七次你們不講話可是對於這個超燃煤被判你們就開始為他講話 請問你的標準何在啊"},{"start":4143.851,"end":4159.163,"text":"我跟委員報告一下謝謝委員關心這個議題那現在大家都聚焦在這個減煤這個事情上面的確煤的使用量減少那我們邏輯去推斷就是它應該排污會減少是這樣的想法"},{"start":4159.924,"end":4187.261,"text":"但是很重要就是說空氣污染防治不是只有減少燃料的使用還有一個就是污染防治設備技術的提升能夠讓它排出來的污染量降低這個才是最終對環境的影響我跟委員報告一下今天沒有達到40%減煤因此台電被台中市政府所處罰了它的減量大概是31點多但是"},{"start":4188.061,"end":4210.855,"text":"煤的減量31點多但是有個數據可能大家都不清楚的我借這個機會跟大家報告但是不要又講說環境部又在幫台電復航我講的是事實啊105年到113年台電投入了740億做污染防治設備的提升以至於他們空污的總排放量從3.8萬公噸降到113年只有9000多共"},{"start":4214.777,"end":4237.635,"text":"9000多公噸減排了76%減排真正排出來的台式對市民的影響用多少燃料那個只是一個管制在前端後端的管制才是最重要的一個結果啊我跟你說台中人都知道2022年台中的電廠是全世界這是世界第一全世界的碳排第一名"},{"start":4238.436,"end":4265.116,"text":"好 你現在用的訴訟的這些費用你知道來自於哪裡嗎你訴訟的費用來自於空污防治基金你自己不覺得很矛盾嗎空污防治基金是應該要幫助人民減少空污結果他們是用他們的納稅錢交給你打這個行政訴訟然後增加他們的空污拿來爭取中火可以超量的燃煤很明顯那個時候他們就是超量的燃煤嘛"},{"start":4265.885,"end":4280.609,"text":"跟委員報告一下108年的11月20號台中市政府發文給台電公司他的文裡面寫的是說他兩年前核給他的許可證的內容上面的文字寫從109年1月26日起"},{"start":4284.71,"end":4299.271,"text":"他把它改為自109年1月26日前這個差別在哪裡你知道嗎這個差別在於本來是往後一年他必須要減40%的量他變成只剩下兩個月的時間去減根本來不及啊"},{"start":4299.992,"end":4320.775,"text":"那它的理由是說它叫做物善一個政府可以用物善去對任何一個事業或者對任何一個民眾的行為我不曉得我們如果今天站在一個空氣污染防治法的上級的機關我們也有監督的責任耶那我們如果都不監督那我們是不是就失職了呢"},{"start":4321.515,"end":4342.87,"text":"我是真的很遺憾 我已經告訴你當時有多項他們被裁罰包括廢水懸浮固體 七度超標包括超燃煤也超標廢水你就不去管 燃煤你就拼命的上訴我很遺憾環境部現在沒有站在台中人民健康的立場而是站在中火的立場"},{"start":4345.966,"end":4361.198,"text":"我還是在這邊希望你們可以去體會住在台中人那邊的心情好嗎我問下一題這邊是也是最近我們高雄發現到這你應該知道我們高雄有這個地方吧我先播影片給你看"},{"start":4429.379,"end":4443.385,"text":"這邊是我們高雄大樹區的河山裡從剛剛的中火一直到這個滿山遍谷的光電板都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的現在那邊的居民吃飯是配沙"},{"start":4444.785,"end":4463.917,"text":"因為他們要把山頭先弄平 弄平以後去填這個窪地比較低窪的地方黃沙滾滾 吃飯都配沙 還污染了他們的水源地本來這個山坡地是以種玉荷包 鳳梨還有水源 水果等等文明佔地50億公頃但是自來水公司2022年為了要資產活化而且配合政府的綠能 綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電"},{"start":4473.623,"end":4485.046,"text":"這不是什麼能源轉型啊這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我想知道你們未來對這件事情會有什麼做法呃 我想政府應該議法行政啦齁那這個事情是能源署這邊也許可以做一下說明齁為什麼會造成這樣的一個結果可不可以請能源署署長好 簡短 簡短"},{"start":4504.284,"end":4511.173,"text":"這個高雄市政府他違反水保法的規定已經撤銷執照那我們昨天也已經撤銷本案的抽涉許可"},{"start":4511.601,"end":4537.308,"text":"第一期還會繼續喔你知道吧宇王宮就是他看他違反水保法因為他剛才是在水保施工的時候他有很多違反水保法那高雄市政府處理罰他七次那我們也處理過一次那他沒有改善所以現在會就他違規違法的部分那麼高雄市政府已經撤銷他執照我們也撤銷他仇社許可我希望你這樣子的態度也可以發揮在總夥那次長我們回來討論這個"},{"start":4541.618,"end":4555.365,"text":"我們2025有幫我們的太陽能光電板定一個目標它必須達到20GW但它中間有調整過所以最後我們希望太陽能的地面型可以達到12GW但你知道我們現在還差多少嗎"},{"start":4562.53,"end":4584.398,"text":"報告我們2026年11月要達到20GW我們目前做了14.8GW那我們大概還差五點多我是說地面型你還差多少地面型地面型事實上就是這主要的大概有4G都是來自於地面型屋頂型的目前比較少因為屋頂型基本上已經達標了"},{"start":4586.114,"end":4612.176,"text":"吳弟請答標我知道地面型我幫你們算了一下還缺6.7GW我昨天還特別去問了經濟部經濟部給我們的條件是說考量太陽能模板的發電效益還有它岸場邊界可能會退縮以及它要留一些運作維修的空間保留排除既有雜項工作物岸場的遮蔭等等的因素每千瓦所需的空間約為一公頃"},{"start":4613.877,"end":4631.494,"text":"所以我們還需要6700萬公頃這樣子的土地我光看到那個畫面大家觸目驚心只有51公頃要達到經濟部的目標還要上百倍剛剛看到的影片這樣子的土地被移平我幫你換算一下"},{"start":4632.475,"end":4647.786,"text":"算起來是0.25 四分之一個台北市 1400座的大巨蛋3.4個左營區 258座大安森林公園我們真的有這麼多地 我們真的有這麼多地面可以放光電板嗎"},{"start":4648.966,"end":4670.631,"text":"目前我們設置的地區大概就是在所謂地力不足的地方那我們有特別分另外我們現在用的土地通常不是農地那我們現在推的餘電公升也就是說在餘溫上那麼來設太陽光墊那同時一方面養魚所謂一方面做太陽光墊我剛剛已經給你看了那個才51公頃我們用空拍機拍過去 51公頃你現在跟我說你要用餘溫"},{"start":4675.612,"end":4697.75,"text":"小塊小塊 我們還缺幾百個剛那樣子的畫面不會 我們現在推的主要是漁電工生是跟農委會合作的那剛才那個當然是一個違法的案例那我們剛才報告我們撤銷它的籌設許可但是我們未來做的還是希望能源跟我具體先給你一個建議 我們看一下這邊"},{"start":4698.971,"end":4723.921,"text":"等一下我會提出一個臨時提案這邊我們第六 第七他就是因為第六條很久以前蘇清泉招委也有諮詢過他們屏東由整個台塘的地全部都砍樹拿來放光電板因為屬於公有土地 國營事業但經能源主管 經關同意者不在此限不在環評的限制位於山坡地"},{"start":4725.161,"end":4749.739,"text":"設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評 才需要做環評那你認為未來不會發生化整為零的現象嗎報告不會 這個我們會嚴格把關那剛才講的這個林地 事實上這個等一下你要怎麼嚴格把關 你先講你要怎麼嚴格把關每一個案我們會去審查 然後我們會找可是山坡地如果它在15公頃以下你要怎麼審查"},{"start":4751.375,"end":4766.381,"text":"我們還是會審查我們事實上每一個案我們審查的時候都有找相關單位來看這一個對環境的生態是不是在敏感地區這個還是要檢查如果他是在環境生態敏感地區他本來依照其他的規定他就要做環評了"},{"start":4767.902,"end":4797.046,"text":"那這是整個這個環評應施環評項目中間的一條但是其他的他比如說他不僅有生態敏感或是有環境敏感地質敏感這些他還是要依照其他規定來做他不一定會有所以等一下我的臨時提案會提出一個報告我們希望不要有漏洞因為我已經把你的漏洞圈起來了我們就是因為之前那個51公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情居民現在擔心自己土石流啊"},{"start":4797.807,"end":4805.494,"text":"不會 所以我剛才講他那個是一個違法的案件我們已經取消他了還有其他的案件我們都在這邊質詢郭統部長好 先這樣子 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝蔣委員 謝謝接下來請邱政經委員來做詢問"},{"start":4824.358,"end":4845.934,"text":"主席好 我們請省次長好 次長好 今天我們談PM0.1超續懸浮微粒的生成機制大概我們是分兩大類那一次粒子與二次粒子 對吧"},{"start":4847.182,"end":4873.222,"text":"是這樣分嗎是直接排放的跟這個隱身物然後一次粒子是直接從污染源排放出來的粒狀物像是藍莓電廠工業鍋爐柴油引擎直接排放的這個黑煙黑炭重金屬微粒這些都是在這個PM0.1的主要來源之一那二次粒子則是進入空氣中的氣體污染物像是氮氧化物二氧化硫"},{"start":4874.883,"end":4889.733,"text":"揮發性有機物發生化學反應生成同樣會形成這個PM0.1那這些來源當中固定污染源就是工業燃燒跟火力發電會直接排出一次粒子也大量"},{"start":4890.453,"end":4913.546,"text":"也排放大量的這個二次粒子的前驅氣體可以說是雙重的這個貢獻者那我很好奇就是說為什麼你們今天的報告裡面在移動污染源部分特別加粗只有在講汽機車交通流量這些移動污染源的監測設備完全不提這個固定污染源的後續對策那我想請問一下你看一下就是說"},{"start":4915.166,"end":4932.673,"text":"你們談論到空污關係到能源議題就會讓你們很焦慮要特別閃躲還是說台灣的PM0.1是漲了導航系統為什麼我們在監測設備總是裝在馬路上車零一多就有大數據分析那電廠一冒煙就全部都沒有資訊"},{"start":4935.095,"end":4951.712,"text":"這是科學監測還是政策選擇的這個閃躲還是其實殖民黨政府不想面對那個最核心最沉重的這個能源污染的問題那我想請問次長接下來你們有準備在火力發電廠周邊設置檢測站嗎"},{"start":4955.049,"end":4971.399,"text":"跟委員報告那工廠的部分包括火力發電廠本來就是大家很關心的這個固定污染源的排放過去的策戰政府的策戰不管是中央或是地方也都是跟著這樣的一個污染來源然後去設這樣的策戰"},{"start":4972.62,"end":4995.587,"text":"要知道它對我們生活居家的環境所造成的衝擊跟影響過去對於移動污染源的部分測的比較少那現在就是世界衛生組織以及歐盟提醒我們移動污染源會產生超細旋汙染那你現在是說我們的這些火力發電廠這些都已經有設了過去都有在監測都有監測對 而且自己也要設監測站數據咧你們都沒有提出來數據有連線"},{"start":5000.544,"end":5020.954,"text":"都有公開都有公開是嗎是因為我們覺得啦就是說你不單不能只是這個測這個移動污染源啦因為那個固定的工廠它是其實排放量更大那你們當然現在把他責任推到推到說是移動污染源我們不是推責任是國際的趨勢共同研究的結果好那我再請問你"},{"start":5024.619,"end":5047.51,"text":"那台中市這個依法對中火裁罰總共開出了一千八百萬的罰單請問環境部是不是覺得台電這個繳一千八百萬太可憐了你們是要守護環境還是心疼台電而且你們中火排放超標你們不急被罰一千八百萬你們馬上跳出來這個撤罰"},{"start":5049.171,"end":5074.281,"text":"現在辦一宿你們還要相處嗎跟委員報告他不是只有罰1800萬還撤銷3號4號機組的一個許可所以重點是這樣子就是說今天政府不管中央還是地方都要維護空氣品質保護人民的健康但是我們必須依法行政重點就是在你執法的過程當中你用物善的方式去說明變更這個許可證的內容"},{"start":5075.822,"end":5093.727,"text":"你讓這一個事業單位沒有辦法去達到你的標準那你等於就是準備要罰單你去做這樣的一個處分的時候會讓人家覺得不服氣啊那我們如果今天事實上你認為人民的健康不值得你們嚴格罰嗎當然要 但是如果說為了人民健康大家都不依法行事超標的才會罰錢啊"},{"start":5095.629,"end":5124.375,"text":"不是嗎跟委員報告就是用煤量有沒有超標這件事情是根據它所謂的物善修改之後它才超標如果它不去把它改的那個文字原來的兩年前發給許可證的內容它按照這樣子去執行的時候事業單位是可以達標的因為地方政府是想我這樣講啦地方政府是想減煤那我們環境部卻跳出來這個阻擋我請問你們你們是空品的主管機關還是台電的這個法律部"},{"start":5124.955,"end":5142.975,"text":"跟委員報告我們當然在乎用燃料的項目跟使用量但是我們更在乎的是排放出來的污染物有沒有減量我剛剛也有說明就是說過去從105年到113年它的排放量減少了76%"},{"start":5144.597,"end":5169.089,"text":"那我們會繼續跟台中市政府督促對所有的台中所有的這樣的一個事業或者是移動污染源等等加強管制為了維護我們台中市民的健康環境部設立的這個宗旨是為了維護國人的健康保護生活品質那生態資源永續發展同時要守護我們國人只有有乾淨的呼吸權環境部存在的目的不是守護臺灣臺電"},{"start":5171.07,"end":5193.422,"text":"如果身為環境部卻不遵守環境和健康這個卻不守護環境和健康那乾脆就改名這個叫護航部啦所以我覺得我們環境部要誠實一點然後公平一點好不好包委員我們要守護國民健康也要依法行政接下來我們講我們現在看那個google map上面"},{"start":5194.883,"end":5212.759,"text":"網友為了紀念民進黨這幾年的最大成就就是把山林變成黑色的海洋特地的把地名改成滿滿的光電板台灣的價值世界奇觀綠色奇蹟你們阻止台中市政府守護健康但面對大樹和山光電開發"},{"start":5215.741,"end":5232.068,"text":"高雄市政府讓山坡地光電消山毀林引發土石流的安全疑慮這個重電毀林的問題環境部我都沒有看到環境部有聲音請問貴部只在管縣市的空屋面對執政縣市的問題直接就不管嗎"},{"start":5234.742,"end":5247.215,"text":"跟委員報告對於這個光電如果是設在這種敏感地區的話當然有一定的法規要依循那對於其他的設置的地點規模以下的當然就是依照各部分的規範他現在是規避環評嘛對不對跟委員報告因為這個案子是不是請我們能源署的署長這邊來做一個說明"},{"start":5256.703,"end":5283.083,"text":"報告那個環評目前已經修正超過15公頃它是要做環評那不過這個案是早期的開發案可是它做水土保持的時候它違反水土保持法那高雄市政府開發7次那已經在昨天高雄市政府就撤銷了它的開發許可那我們這邊經濟部也在昨天同時撤銷了它的籌設許可那我問你那後來後續會怎麼樣這後續怎麼處理"},{"start":5285.046,"end":5312.406,"text":"後續那個一就是水保法他高雄因為他現在違反不是除了罰款你們罰了然後要恢復原狀嗎罰了要恢復原狀我們就是說他超出他原來核准範圍外的那麼他要恢復原狀他要罰除他已經設置的部分那至於他另外有一個是違反水保法那這個高雄市政府會議水保法處理他罰他幾次而且他當初應該是一公審一公審申請是吧"},{"start":5314.688,"end":5329.759,"text":"沒有 他當時內政部核准51公頃但是射光電的地方只核准他21公頃那現在他整個整地違反水保法是他把整個51公頃大概都快推平了因為環評法第18條 開發行為進行中或完成"},{"start":5335.143,"end":5351.253,"text":"使用時應由目的事業主管機關追蹤並由主管機關監督環境影響說明書還有評估書及審查結論之執行情形那必要時得命開發單位定期提出環境影響調查報告書"},{"start":5352.634,"end":5372.347,"text":"我的意思是說當時的法定時日沒有錯是許可的早期對那早期的那但是因為我們這個時間一直在變嘛那我們在後續追蹤它確實有影響的時候是不是我們就要要求我們這些業者要做這些事情是的環評是要做後續追蹤好啦我希望你們這個確實執行了好謝謝"},{"start":5379.107,"end":5384.012,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝次長 代理署長接下來請王育民委員來做選擇好 謝謝主席 我們請次長還有這個能源署代理署長李代理署長"},{"start":5403.482,"end":5411.536,"text":"這個次長 今天是環境部 那能源署也來我們就是要關心高雄大樹 河山光電這個案場"},{"start":5414.387,"end":5437.829,"text":"這個暗場是一個超高強度的開發高達51公頃而且這樣的一個山坡地他其實是有超過一半是四級的坡度就是他的坡度是30%到40%然後所以他必須鏟平山頭填平挖地讓整個山谷可以放置這個太陽能板"},{"start":5438.874,"end":5461.91,"text":"那這樣子的一個毀零重電還可以稱為是綠電嗎童子賢也是我們總統府的國家氣候變遷對策的副召集人他就說這種破壞植被森林的方式產生能源不應稱為綠能因為這是綠色不利我請教次長跟署長你們同意這句話嗎次長你同意嗎作為環境部的次長"},{"start":5468.728,"end":5490.643,"text":"當然要依法當然要依法他這個違法的話就不是我們說他是破壞環境的確是這樣子署長你同意嗎是的他這個是一個違法的案件所以我們撤銷他籌撤許可高雄市政委員取消他的開發好這個案子不在於他是一個違法的案件接下來一頁我要讓大家看到這個始作俑者是誰"},{"start":5492.407,"end":5513.133,"text":"這一件事情是從2020年9月當時的行政院院長蘇貞昌他要達到6.5GW的光電目標經濟部所屬的自來水公司他就去招標土地所以現在大家看到的這一大片51公頃的地是誰的那個署長你說這地是誰的自來水公司自來水公司去招標的嗎"},{"start":5522.034,"end":5550.413,"text":"所以是政府經濟部所屬的自來水公司主動去招標土地為什麼招標這麼大片的土地為什麼招標是完全合法的那也是希望它得標的廠商要合法合規去做合法的所以這個程序是沒有問題合法的高達51公頃我剛剛講過它是四級坡度百分之三十到四十所以它造成的後果就是"},{"start":5550.913,"end":5566.848,"text":"他必須砍平山頭 他才有可能重點報告委員 他整個基地的面積是51公頃但是當時並不是全部核准他我再問你 你們當時要他可以 他可以申請的這個裝置容量是多少署長你說是 我就看你們要說謊到什麼時候"},{"start":5573.766,"end":5580.128,"text":"不是 我們這個有你的裝置容量高達多少它是51公頃喔你的裝置容量是不是70MW如果70MW是不是要開發高達超過40公頃以上的土地不是這樣子我們核准它的面積是21公頃所以它超過 它現在超過了它有兩個 你總共只核准21公頃設置太陽光墊那為什麼會通過51公頃的山坡地開發整個土地面積"},{"start":5602.114,"end":5610.539,"text":"所以當時就沒有核准發展那他現在超出多少他現在開發的範圍已經超出我們核准的範圍他超出幾公頃 你告訴大家因為他現在還沒有 他現在違反的其實是他現在開發幾公頃他現在開發幾公頃他整地的範圍已經超過21公頃了所以這個可能要問高雄市政府因為他現在是在整地還沒有設計你到現在還沒有掌握媒體講的好像只超出兩公頃吧"},{"start":5628.366,"end":5640.151,"text":"我們會跟高雄市政府 因為他現在兩個部分你們會跟高雄市政府我今天要告訴大家的就是這件事情的始作俑者叫做經濟部經濟部要求自來水公司標租土地然後2022年12月21號"},{"start":5645.593,"end":5663.762,"text":"內政部他去許可開發他是有經過合法程序的2022年12月21號公文都在這邊內政部行文給高雄市政府高雄市政府也很配合12月21號發文12月29號高雄市政府就公告了"},{"start":5664.862,"end":5666.665,"text":"為什麼當時你們在審理這個程序的過程當中沒有人去質疑它這個四級的坡地佔的比例高達53%它是真的適合嗎你們這個過程當中有好好審理嗎"},{"start":5680.262,"end":5707.384,"text":"他這個程序是沒有問題的他這個山坡地開發所以他要做水土保值他也送了水土保值計畫那今天這個案的問題是他沒有依照他的計畫來執行所以才會有開發高雄市政府給他開發過七次那我們也開發過一次一把一百五十萬要他恢復原狀那因為他都沒有改善那所以高雄市政府取消他的這個開發許可那我們也取消他籌設許可"},{"start":5708.024,"end":5709.865,"text":"是因為這樣子嗎如果今天不是國民黨的議員跟立委帶隊去考察媒體報的這麼大請問這整個案子會這樣子終止嗎高雄市政府會發生嗎經濟部會發生嗎"},{"start":5726.189,"end":5734.414,"text":"自己回過去看上下游市集他們之前那個報導在五月份的時候高雄市政府還在說這個我們還要評估看看喔就是沒有覺得這個業者有什麼不對的地方你們是有開罰但是不覺得應該要終止為什麼現在終止了高雄市政府是有很認真在處理他開罰了七次你們也沒有要終止啊"},{"start":5750.843,"end":5768.056,"text":"你們只是開罰不痛不癢啊你們罰得到目前的金額對照未來這個巨大的獲利根本就是不痛不癢所以是什麼原因你們才會立刻終止因為民意的反彈嘛輿論的壓力嘛你們現在才出手去廢止嘛我今天要點出來的問題就是當時為什麼這麼大規模51公頃的開範你會覺得可以呢"},{"start":5774.981,"end":5787.095,"text":"然後也都不用徵詢整個環境部的意見環境部次長你們從頭到尾這個開發案你們有被邀請過去表示一下意見嗎這麼大恭喜因為這個是早期的開發案現在的環境有規定這個才是2022年2022年12月29日剛好市政府才公告三年前是有多早期"},{"start":5794.983,"end":5817.176,"text":"當時不是因為土地面積 那我們現在已經修正 環保署這邊已經修正所以你過去就是一個錯誤嘛政策的錯誤引領而造成這樣的後果嘛 而這樣的代價是高雄市民要去承擔的你根本回復不了 另外一個案子我要繼續問台塘嘉義東石案場 這個規模更大了毀林重建要高達77公頃"},{"start":5819.777,"end":5844.483,"text":"如果按照你們現在的環評標準的話只要位於政府核定補助或獎勵實施的造林之土地基因能源主管機關同意者不在此限所以嘉義東石的鄉親已經起來抗議要毀林重建高達77公頃對當地的破壞非常的大但是這個案子我就問要不要環評"},{"start":5845.783,"end":5870.782,"text":"新的辦法已經通過了這個正在進行中的這個案子要不要終止要不要比照高雄的案子停下來這個我們會來評估因為這個案子我們還沒有核准它那剛才這個法令上的規定主要是我們過去這個規定的造林地其實它是有行政院核定它是經濟林那本來就是一定時間之後經濟造林一定時間就要經過砍伐之後再重新種植"},{"start":5871.482,"end":5900.685,"text":"但是我們會來評估如果這個林鄉已經很好形成生態的話那我們就不會讓他去我坦白講經濟部的評估我們都不相信我要求環境部次長表態來 次長像這個這麼大規模的高達77公頃你現行的環評裡面你為什麼給這一個經濟部能源主管機關一個上訪保險就是只要是他們的造林的土地國有土地 公有土地國營事業土地或公營事業土地"},{"start":5901.425,"end":5921.622,"text":"能源主管機關只要同意就不再實現就沒有你的角色就把你們踢開了這個合理嗎這是一個非常大的漏洞啊如果按照這個標準坦白講剛剛高雄的那個案例他就是自來水公司的土地一樣也沒有你環境部的角色啊都是經濟部說了算這樣子合理嗎"},{"start":5922.623,"end":5931.649,"text":"你環境部現在升格之後你的角色應該要展現出來吧你覺得這一條是不是應該要再修為什麼要給能源主管機關這麼大的權限"},{"start":5933.306,"end":5953.22,"text":"跟委員報告 當時有特別提到因為是整個國家的政策在推動綠能那經濟部也會嚴格把關沒有嚴格把關我們是相信他要不可以用相信現在就是前面高雄的案例已經看出來了由他一手主導的就是造成破壞環境的元兇你們都沒有角色"},{"start":5953.76,"end":5957.301,"text":"這個部分我要求這個環境部回去要重修你的這個整個那個環評的這個標準要不然就是一個大漏洞你什麼都交給經濟部經濟部是以沖他的這個綠色光電為他第一目標他根本不顧環境正義的他就是努力往前沖所以你可以看到高雄的這個光電廠這麼的離譜就是因為他主導的嘛"},{"start":5978.146,"end":5995.671,"text":"那個源頭就是經濟部嘛而這當中都看不到環境部的角色嘛部會之間是要發揮彼此各自角色然後共同去監督結果我們沒有看到環境部的角色啊所以這個我要求第二個我的要求是現行到底還有多少案場"},{"start":5997.133,"end":6011.481,"text":"其實是有問題的經濟部自己主導免環評但是他可能還是存在一些環境評估影響的問題署長你能回答嗎你現在自己去盤點你手上多少案例我剛已經講了一個公使的這個大規模要毀零重電的77公頃這是一例喔還有多少案例他現在是大規模的開發"},{"start":6022.067,"end":6028.892,"text":"委員如果需要我們可以來做盤點因為我們現在大概要求你們盤點你要多久可以盤點出來我們大概一個月的時間我們盤點出來一個月要盤點出來因為我們現在核准的案件它有九萬多件所以大部分是屋頂型的那我們會盤大型的地面型"},{"start":6044.203,"end":6052.381,"text":"這種毀零重電的好不好毀零重電無論是造零或者是山坡地的用大規模開發一定要列出來然後我要求環境部"},{"start":6053.902,"end":6079.005,"text":"經濟部盤點出來之後你們要召開會議你們要評估這當中有沒有涉及到跟高雄的這個光電廠案很像的不會 跟委員報告在那個人工造林地我們一定是在那個林相不佳的地方才會做那雖然它是人工造林是經濟林但是我們現在的政策是如果它已經形成一個生態了那我們就不會去砍伐它了一定是在林相不佳的地方所以我們會跟農委會來"},{"start":6081.026,"end":6087.77,"text":"檢討什麼叫做零向不佳的地方我們才會來利用好我們現在發展綠能喔這個發展綠能是一件好事但是做過頭了衝過頭了不顧環境正義就是一件壞事喔我們已經看到這個陸續的情況都出來了包括漁電共生最近的這個議題喔大家也看到"},{"start":6101.777,"end":6111.343,"text":"這個只種電不養魚其實也造成一個很大的問題所以這個部分我要求環境部你們的角色要出來最後再提醒環境部一點剛剛提到這個中火的部分這個次長我希望你在表達上面你要以一個環境部次長的高度來回答問題"},{"start":6120.868,"end":6133.456,"text":"你有沒有看過北高行他真正他的這個意見他說空污防治是環境保護重要項目因為各地方地理環境自然條件社會發展狀況產業結構等都不同因此環境保護事項有因地制宜的必要空污防治為地方市台中市地方自治範疇台中環保局採儲中火"},{"start":6150.448,"end":6163.986,"text":"罰還並廢止許可證屬於地方自治事項所以他要釐清的就是這個是台中市政府環保局的地方自治事項那我覺得這個環境部就是自己跳進來"},{"start":6165.308,"end":6185.117,"text":"跳進來公清便是主而且呢還要繼續上訴我真的覺得你們這件事到此為止吧你們這樣的一個干預地方政府他去行他的空污防治的作業你們這樣子根本就違反了環境部你們基本的職責跟所在所以這個部分我認為這個環境部你們是失職"},{"start":6187.998,"end":6205.913,"text":"你們應該去支持台中市環保局就是對於任何的空汙可以嚴格的去查緝而不是出來阻擋他們要去這個採訪這個過度燃煤的這樣的一個情況你們還要出來阻止我覺得這個環境部是做錯了好 以上謝謝好 謝謝接下來請圖群級委員來做懸答"},{"start":6221.466,"end":6224.39,"text":"討論宣導完我們就先休息十分鐘好謝謝好謝謝主席請我們次長來請次長"},{"start":6234.317,"end":6255.083,"text":"市長那今天先我們來關心一下我們環境部在5月初有成立一個資源循環新創產業聯盟那這也是延續我們去年8加N資源循環聯盟那請問一下這兩個聯盟差別在哪去年成立的跟今年成立的差別在哪裡那個"},{"start":6262.216,"end":6272.869,"text":"我請我們副署長說明一下跟委員報告一樣那兩個的方式就是說他的成員不一樣他的目的也不太一樣"},{"start":6274.931,"end":6300.959,"text":"成員不一樣目的也不同那我想請問一下那在這個聯盟成立之前他有公開報名的資訊嗎是我們是有一個公開的一個資訊然後請那個產業別產業別的話我們是由在我們網路上進行公告在網路上那可能宣傳不夠因為我們也找不到這個公開的資訊是在我們"},{"start":6302.179,"end":6321.169,"text":"我們循環署的網路循環署的網路是那因為喔這個有些產業有一些質疑啦沒關係先問一下那他有具備什麼條件才能入選這個限制規模還是大小還是資本的嗎基本上是沒有沒有這個都沒有限制是我們是用鼓勵的性質"},{"start":6322.64,"end":6350.661,"text":"是鼓勵的性質因為我們現在收到很多產業他們說對於這個他們也不知道有這件事情那很多產業他們也希望能夠參加這個8加N的N當然也希望跟我們公部門建立一些交流那所以我們希望說在這一部分往後這個公開報名遴選的資訊是盡量要廣宣因為他們很多後來才知道就是說奇怪什麼"},{"start":6351.261,"end":6380.062,"text":"我們環境部有做這個產業都很想參加可是居然都不再有這個訊息是我們再來加強所以那希望說針對這部分以後再宣傳的部分再多加強因為覺得產業會覺得說好像這有一點好像不是很公開在做那這部分我們再加強一下好那我們針對我們非洲豬瘟的部分我想請問一下那非洲豬瘟當然也是"},{"start":6382.063,"end":6401.771,"text":"這個農業部之前為了加快廚藝養豬轉型造成最大的因素嘛因為這個非洲豬瘟才讓我們農業部對於廚藝養豬這個轉型那107年非洲豬瘟入境之後我們那時候農業部有查理一下我們全國那時候"},{"start":6403.051,"end":6422.772,"text":"廚育養豬有2045家那當然那時候就發現有66場是沒有廚育真主設備全國只有300多家這個真主廚育的方式有達到環保署的要求標準那後來農業部也針對"},{"start":6424.333,"end":6441.785,"text":"這一波提出了一些政策包含自願退場補助還有飼料差額補助那當然這些補助之後他補助飼料之後就規定10年內不能使用廚餘養豬那在110年10月的時候他有公告200頭以下的"},{"start":6449.351,"end":6471.589,"text":"豬場禁止使用除於飼養那200頭以上除於廢棄物也是需要經過直轄縣市政府環境保護主管機關因廢棄法的規定核准那當然從此我們這個小型豬農除於養豬就正式進入歷史當然"},{"start":6472.35,"end":6490.73,"text":"這些講的部分這個政策是農業部跟環境部沒有關係但是後來在去年8月27號的時候非洲豬瘟中央災害應變中心第31次會議的時候農業部部長陳俊基"},{"start":6491.411,"end":6513.357,"text":"就在會中就要求我們環境部環管署來研議現有的養豬場目前我們查過現有435間它的真主設施周邊要求它裝設即時監控影像系統的可行性那請教我一下次長是不是有這個事情"},{"start":6514.517,"end":6539.729,"text":"有的確是有 現在目前有四百三十幾個場就是兩百頭以上的那要求要裝CCTV去監控而且他每一天要飼料要蒸煮一個小時90度C以上他必須要把那個蒸煮的照片拍上傳讓我們可以去管控那據我們了解像今天下午環管署是不是要召開廚藥養豬場裝設即時錄影監視系統"},{"start":6544.553,"end":6564.706,"text":"這個溝通資商會議是不是今天下午要開今天下午有一個會議是所以據我們了解好像這個研議規劃廚餘養豬農要求以下這些設備變成強制的規定就是必須要有即時監測的設備設置在指定的地點然後監測廚餘運送車輛車牌等資訊還有就是要有"},{"start":6569.309,"end":6584.325,"text":"及時溫度的監測設備設置在我們儲域珍珠中心的溫度位置以上的監控資訊必須要及時傳送到環保機關的監控系統平台是不是這樣"},{"start":6587.059,"end":6587.199,"text":"因為據我們了解"},{"start":6607.483,"end":6634.625,"text":"好像我們環境部好像針對這一部分好像要針對我們剛剛講的以下設備好像說傾向要變成強制規定是不是這樣因為還是要看我們的設備跟不跟得上像如果是集體追蹤系統的話GPS是已經有的主要是中心的真主的溫度能不能看得到能不能即時反應的溫度那我們現在也在找業界還有我們的養豬戶大家一起來討論今天下午會做一個比較深入的討論"},{"start":6635.219,"end":6653.649,"text":"那請問一下我們之前我們沒有相關的管理規範嗎我們之前有規範但是沒有CCTV沒有即時監測都要靠稽查員到現場來做採證所以就是農業部認為環境部在這一部分的監管強度不足"},{"start":6654.582,"end":6671.254,"text":"他是建議如果可以有更好的科學的方法那我們可以一起來共同來投入接下來非洲豬瘟的防治的工作所以現在農業部針對這部分他是希望能夠加強來做嘛 是不是是 他希望能夠一起來加強來做那針對這部分喔"},{"start":6673.459,"end":6702.051,"text":"我們了解去年8月防疫中心會議的時候他們就是決定並指定說環境部必須研議豬農必須設置及時監測裝置所以針對他現在要求這個監管的方式跟強度那我請問一下農業部是否有提供我們環境部針對監管手段必要性的說明或者報告農業部有提供嗎"},{"start":6702.914,"end":6728.986,"text":"這個部分倒是沒有都是在會議上大家交換意見那我們也正在研議中所以針對農業部自己這部分他都沒有去做為什麼一下就要求我們環境部要去必要一定要去實施這個因為養豬的那個廚餘的來源很多是我們家戶或者事業所產生的這個廚餘的廢棄物那這部分我們有責任來做部分的監控那我們基於部會的議題我們來協助共同防治非洲豬瘟"},{"start":6729.835,"end":6754.005,"text":"所以我覺得農業部自己針對監管手段必要性這個說明跟報告他都沒有去做現在就要求環境部要去做那當然難怪現在其實很多豬農反映據他們說這個做法非常的繁瑣最主要會加重他們很大的成本當然他們說之前非洲豬瘟全部"},{"start":6755.225,"end":6764.914,"text":"除以轉型就已經很多豬農就已經就已經被滅農了那如果現在再這樣做他們說根本就是又再一次滅這豬農之嫌啊"},{"start":6767.796,"end":6784.062,"text":"我們會收集各界的意見達到共識然後確實可行的時候才會來落實推進所以我們應該要農業部自己應該之前要有完善的研究那要有完整的配套措施我覺得再來實施是不是才比較正確各位委員報告因為今天農業部沒有在場應該是沒有"},{"start":6785.863,"end":6809.902,"text":"對啊我現在的意思是說農業部自己該做的沒有做那你環境部就去配合這很奇怪啊他沒有一個手段必要性的完整報告給你就要求你環境部去做那你環境部沒有看到這報告你現在就配合那豬農難怪會認為說你沒有完整的數據研究你就貿然就要求豬農去做這些即時監測的設備"},{"start":6811.624,"end":6818.198,"text":"跟委員報告啦就是說非洲豬瘟這個過去就是說過去的執行的成效其實是好的"},{"start":6819.212,"end":6840.325,"text":"那過去用的方法我們用高溫蒸煮的方式然後即時回傳這個也達到這樣的管控效果了那過去那個廚藝桶在路邊隨意擺設怕人家會丟入這個肉食類的廚藝這個部分也都把它移除了所以家長巡檢還有各養豬場配合這個都做到了以至於現在我們非洲豬瘟在台灣是絕跡的"},{"start":6842.148,"end":6862.117,"text":"那這樣的強度為什麼還要去加強可能必須要去跟這個農業部還有我們的這個養豬場這邊好好溝通這樣做可能會增加成本當然也會造成一些不方便但是對我們稽查管制來講是比較方便的所以這個不能容許我們跟"},{"start":6863.463,"end":6886.722,"text":"農業部這邊在今天下午開會的時候農業部應該會一起出來嘛那我們會把這個議題再把委員關心的事情我們一併把它納入討論對啊今天會提出就是因為你們下午要去講這部分而且據他們了解你們好像是準備想要強制規定那我們才會說農業部針對這些手段的報告跟說明都沒有去完善而且你在當然啦"},{"start":6887.342,"end":6909.559,"text":"我們這個非洲豬瘟這個防疫豬農甚至本席我們我相信一般民眾都希望把這個防疫的工作做好這是我們大家所希望也是我們要求的但是現在養豬 豬農他認為說你養豬場在廚藝管理之前其實他前面就有邊境管制那針對我們非洲豬瘟肉品"},{"start":6910.719,"end":6924.804,"text":"邊境管制這第一關那你再來進入豬場之前還有一個渠道管制就是除於這運送過程要進入這個這個回收場之前所以不能說前面這個幾個階段"},{"start":6926.645,"end":6952.26,"text":"沒有去做全部加重在後面豬農養豬的身上不會 那個前面各個關卡 各相關部會各有職職者在做這個事情我們只是希望說確保這件事情不要有一個破口不然的話我們整個防疫體制就破功了是這樣所以這樣做是不是會加重當然會造成這個成本的增加等等那這部分我們在下午的時候看看怎麼樣來討論這個部分"},{"start":6954.481,"end":6964.657,"text":"當然我們說這個非洲豬是防疫工作當然能夠做得完善當然是最好所以我們剛剛有講前面其實在這進場之前一個邊境管制還有他一個一個"},{"start":6966.604,"end":6991.543,"text":"渠道的管制然後當然第三關才是進入到我們養豬場這個廚餘真主這一部分那現在豬農擔心的是現在把所有好像整個幾乎加注在他們的身上我們也希望如果要去做我們要有一個完整的報告是不是這個必要性還有你今天要求他去做"},{"start":6992.223,"end":7014.062,"text":"勢必要增加它很多的成本那我們有沒有完整的配套跟補助不然這個把所有的成本都加注在豬農的身上勢必到時候還是反映在我們消費者上面是因為豬農這邊是最後一個把關那我們當然是滴水不漏是我們最重要的一個終極目標那我們要好好的跟豬農來溝通謝謝委員長"},{"start":7015.523,"end":7031.274,"text":"好所以我說今天提出的就是你們下午開會討論的時候希望針對這幾個部分喔前面邊境管制渠道管制再來才是第三個到豬農的珍珠設備這邊那是不是這三個地方都應該要"},{"start":7032.134,"end":7058.52,"text":"都要去做不能全部都加注在豬農的身上而且你今天要去做你的配套跟補助你有想過嗎那全部成本加注在他身上勢必又反映在消費者身上又造成我們豬價的上漲那這部分也希望我們環境部跟農業部好好地研議好 謝謝好 謝謝土匪 謝謝市長我們現在休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7068.131,"end":7068.393,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":7816.42,"end":7831.179,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來請王振旭委員來做審打好 謝謝主席我們就麻煩省次長來 次長"},{"start":7838.364,"end":7854.034,"text":"市長好 今天早上有聽您的口頭報告知道針對於今天的主題要從相關的空氣品質希望能夠符合歐盟的期待原來我們在監測的PM2.5希望能夠有機會進展到PM0.1的部分"},{"start":7861.478,"end":7876.683,"text":"早上我也蠻多都提到怎麼去精進這個未來的監測這個是很重要的所以今天用三個相關的內容來跟市長做討論包括檢視PM2.5減量的成效跟區域的落差"},{"start":7877.85,"end":7902.883,"text":"第二部分就是PM0.1的建設這是一個願景那個願景從建設行動如何能夠有效縮短這個距離這是我們的第二部分那第三個部分我們也了解其實空屋對於這個我們人體的影響是蠻明顯的那未來在管理這個空屋跟溫管基金的部分能不能夠研議也把這個醫學公會的代表"},{"start":7903.363,"end":7923.354,"text":"那為重要的成員包括這個衛護部是不是應該也是一個重要的主管機關那我們就往下看我們也知道我們環境部這幾年非常努力的希望能夠改善空屋那也看到了具體的成果目前已經能夠有效的從這個原來的105年的20"},{"start":7926.856,"end":7951.016,"text":"減低到去年的12.8這個是非常明顯的成效可是我們也知道其實還是存在著蠻明顯的區域性的差異包括看到這個宜蘭花東空氣品質就特別好那北部也還不錯竹苗也都還可以那中部相對差一點那更不好的地方就是雲嘉南包括這個"},{"start":7953.278,"end":7974.699,"text":"雲嘉蘭的空瓶是17.4的PM0.5的濃度那高瓶是17.0那未來我們也了解說希望能夠在113年到116年當中執行了空氣污染防治方案裡面能夠有效在根據污染源做這個排放減量"},{"start":7975.74,"end":7998.182,"text":"的占比可以再提高包括不管是電力業、石化業、車輛機具、露天燃燒等等那現在是114年113年到目前也執行了一年多那請問市長目前有沒有比較明確的數據來支撐說我們這樣的方案的執行是能夠達到預期目標的"},{"start":7999.673,"end":8022.564,"text":"跟委員報告那委員對於空污改善這個部分也能夠理解就是說我們其實全國都全面在改善當中但是對於雲嘉南跟高坪的地區的確改善的結果目前還是這個區域裡面比較高的但是其實我們如果看過去這5年來"},{"start":8024.346,"end":8039.768,"text":"雲嘉嵐跟高屏其實減幅也都不小雲嘉嵐大概減少了21%然後高屏大概減少了14%但是因為它目前的濃度還是比較高的但是跟我們今天關心的這個"},{"start":8041.229,"end":8064.116,"text":"0.1其實就未必是這樣的結果那當然我們現在講的是PM2.5那PM2.5我們就會針對PM2.5的產生源然後提出這個移除解決的對策所以雲嘉嵐跟高雄這個部分我們過去就是空氣污染物就是主要就是來自於工廠的部分來自於移動污染源的部分來自於驛山污染源的部分"},{"start":8065.016,"end":8081.221,"text":"當然有時候也會受到一些境外的影響等等我們事先知道會有一些預警的時候我們會提醒工地或者是有一些排放員必須要降載等等我們希望透過這些機制來讓他"},{"start":8084.262,"end":8111.462,"text":"會超標的這個紅色戰日數能夠降低我們做的大概是這些事情但是我們仍然會朝著持續全國各區平均往下走往下走的方式去所以我們才會訂出一個目標我們要達到12達到10達到8達到5我們有逐年分年的目標當然你必須要有這樣的願景我們知道達到5那真的是一個很難全球大概都要做到才有可能"},{"start":8113.083,"end":8130.189,"text":"其實我的用意就是說因為我們有一定的目標而且有一定的路徑才有辦法達到最後的成果2.5當初也是非常努力從10變成2.5的努力過程本來是預定到1後來又提前到0.1這樣的一個訴求"},{"start":8133.47,"end":8148.976,"text":"如果我們有一定的路徑未來跟隨這樣的路徑機會就會相對高一點這個就是我們希望透過這些討論也讓市長提供一些參考市長是最後面的專家謝謝委員就是說其實我們在去年底啟動了這一個全國對空氣品質的許願"},{"start":8155.058,"end":8168.473,"text":"那我們也收集了319則民眾的這個對於空氣品質的一個祈禱或者說一個願望那我們也因為這樣我們擬了這個空品白皮書我們在今年的5月16號就發佈了"},{"start":8169.955,"end":8194.597,"text":"那其實我們現在正式一個就是6月12到7月12之間全國我們徵詢大家的意見包括今天的質詢委員給我們的意見我們都會把它納入就是說將來未來10年我們的台灣的空氣品質到底要走到哪個方向那包括我們今天的重要的主題就是超細旋弧微粒一定會擺在這裡面超細旋弧微粒是0.1這個定義是很清楚的"},{"start":8195.077,"end":8221.448,"text":"那我今天看了教育部的報告裡面其實也有提到有關於校園設置綠牆的部分這個對我來講覺得是非常有亮點的一個執行的方案那我們也看到108年到112年環境部其實也執行過相關的這個計畫來做示範區的處理那不知道最後的成果是如何那我們也希望這個經濟"},{"start":8223.589,"end":8237.677,"text":"這個清淨空氣綠牆的計畫可以能夠有效的如果是之前的事辦成果良好的話因為不只是學校尤其包括這個年長者或者是相關的這些比較"},{"start":8238.758,"end":8259.634,"text":"需要長照的機構如果能夠來設置的話因為我們知道兩個年齡群一個是兒童的呼吸道的敏感度是高的長者或是長照的需求是高的所以如果這個空氣力強計畫能夠再有效處理的話很希望它能夠發揮這部分的效應不知道這邊市長有沒有相關的計畫在推行"},{"start":8261.816,"end":8275.884,"text":"因為我們過去我們很關心中部包括南部那我們在這個中部跟南部的幾個學校裡面我們都有綠牆的一個計畫在進行其實效果是好的"},{"start":8276.664,"end":8302.817,"text":"包括當時我們在像雲林裡我們有導入所謂的新風系統等等我們重點就是希望改善在教室裡面的小朋友們他們的這些學生他們的這個空氣的一個品質我們透過這樣的一個方式那現在是不是進一步把它擴展到像長道機構等等這個部分我們把它納入園域等於是委員你今天也許了一個願我們把它送進來是我們的許願詞"},{"start":8305.458,"end":8333.695,"text":"好謝謝謝謝次長那針對PM的對健康的影響大家都很清楚這個跟顆粒的大小有非常密切的關係那我自己本身是來自一個醫界對健康的維護也特別敏感我們在PM時對呼吸道的刺激主要就是針對比較黏膜表層會明顯的影響到引起氣喘跟直氣管疾病那如果是2.5的話容易引起肺部發炎還有慢性"},{"start":8334.315,"end":8349.281,"text":"阻塞性的肺病為主那如果是PM1的話就會比較深入到肺部裡面加劇呼吸道的問題導致全身性的發炎那如果是0.1的話可能更危險這個可以理解"},{"start":8350.021,"end":8370.596,"text":"這些那麼超微細的顆粒會穿越這個細胞的屏障進入到全身的血液循環影響到大腦肝臟跟腎臟等等的這個就是目前我們所擔心未來對健康的影響當然這個驗證需要持續的透過這些醫學研究讓民眾可以更理解這個零點一堆的影響"},{"start":8372.057,"end":8401.607,"text":"那今天我們也看到這個PM0.1納入空瓶政策的白皮書裡面就是我們看到這個白皮書不過跟市長報告一下其實這裡面是有提到超選府違例可是他其實都沒有提到0.1可能當初在編這個白皮書的時候還沒有把這個0.1當作一些想要設定的部分這可能到時候再麻煩因為我們過去都是到2.5嘛那我們那個時候是把"},{"start":8402.027,"end":8420.408,"text":"1放進來了那現在大家談的都是0.1那這個一定會是我們未來的重點對 所以那個重點就變成說那從科學的角度來看我們如何能夠啟動這個科學模式的推顧就變得非常非常的重要任何的事情的進步一定要有科學的依據"},{"start":8421.229,"end":8450.669,"text":"那我們也知道之前在PM2.5的部分是透過AER MOD的這個本土化的模式來建構這樣的這些了解知道說PM2.5這個26%來自於這個益善源47%來自於境外傳輸等等那未來我們在啟動這個PM0.1的研究過程當中還是希望有一個科學模式的推估那目前這個推估"},{"start":8452.75,"end":8463.274,"text":"將來會怎麼執行可能還會請次長這邊來做進一步的這些報告以外那我們也看到說目前的空氣全國空氣品質的指標裡面"},{"start":8466.702,"end":8478.215,"text":"還沒有0.1這個相次當然是還沒有好的模型或者是政策方式不知道這個指標什麼時候有機會把PM0.1也放進來跟委員報告因為"},{"start":8482.239,"end":8502.686,"text":"歐盟也是在去年的11月才要求會員國在兩年之內要設監測站那他們監測站的密度其實今天大家都在談說我們是不是要增加一些站啊怎麼樣怎麼樣每間市都要設啊其實他們是每人口一千萬人才需要設一站如果以這個標準台灣設三站就好了但是我們當然不會是這個樣子"},{"start":8504.447,"end":8523.428,"text":"開始要去設監測站取得監測的數據是注意做研究那做研究之後現在找出這一個污染的成因跟來源之後擬定政策去管制目前歐盟或者是這個世界衛生組織也都沒有做任何的管制標準的建議"},{"start":8524.369,"end":8552.618,"text":"那不是在知音裡面提醒大家要注意這個PM0.1那現在其實我們臺灣的很多學界或者是健康組織他們已經開始在關心這個問題那環境部也把他拉進來了我們在102年就已經跟臺大管公所蕭老師這邊有一個計畫在進行一直持續著那我想除了臺北之外臺中高雄這個部分我們也都會去加強做資料的監測跟蒐集那接下來我們就會擬定政策來執行"},{"start":8553.558,"end":8575.999,"text":"OK 好 如果將來有全國空氣品質指標把這個PM0.1也納進來的話我想這個就是走在世界最前端也讓民眾對於這個PM0.1真的會影響到我們體內的這個部分可以有更知道怎麼去保障自己的健康尤其是呼吸道 包括全身的防護的部分"},{"start":8576.539,"end":8604.244,"text":"那最後一個部分就是有關於這個空氣污染防治基金管理會如何能夠把這個醫學跟公衛的領域代表也納進來這個部分之前其實也跟彭部長討論過這個問題我們期待說在這個部分有能夠把這個相關的代表也希望讓他在這個管理會裡面發揮他的作用那部長那個時候也認為說的確有這個需要"},{"start":8606.724,"end":8634.471,"text":"讓這樣的這個管理會的代表可以更多元的同時也希望能夠發揮它的作用我們也知道目前的這個基金會裡面管理會裡面的代表是有不同的這個代表包括目前的委員設計的17到23人那其中呢是有一些相關的"},{"start":8635.591,"end":8654.46,"text":"機關代表、專家、學者跟民間團體可是很湊巧之前好像對於醫療或者是公衛的部分沒有那麼樣的去確認說未來這個環境尤其是空污的影響"},{"start":8655.24,"end":8675.995,"text":"造成的這些不管是疾病上的或者是這個公共衛生帶來的衝擊所以並沒有把相關的這個專家學者納為這個委員之一那這部分可能也要麻煩是不是能夠有機會請部長或者是請次長這邊來考量跟委員報告一下那我們這一次我們"},{"start":8678.305,"end":8686.857,"text":"空污基金管理會我們委員到任期屆滿之後我們已經有新聘了準備新聘那目前的現在裡面就已經有了吧"},{"start":8687.83,"end":8707.676,"text":"目前有一位台大的公衛的教授那未來也一定會把他在那就不一定是他但是就是說一定會有公衛領域的或是醫療領域的學者專家在裡面謝謝委員的提醒因為我們根據氣候變遷因應法第四條裡面其實在第八款是有"},{"start":8708.576,"end":8728.553,"text":"談到這個氣候變遷因應的協調、研擬跟推動事項這個都需要相關的專家或者是學者一起來努力我們往下看也知道其實衛福部也針對這個因應氣候變遷也出現做一個政策白皮書所以基本上如果有把這些"},{"start":8729.754,"end":8742.105,"text":"重要的委員代表都能夠納到這個基金會的話相信就能夠讓整體的處理可以更為周全好 那以上就麻煩部裡面來參考 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝市長接下來請黃學王委員來做選擇"},{"start":8758.131,"end":8760.613,"text":"謝謝主席我們請次長來請次長次長好我想今天大家關心的就是說我們的那個空氣當中的吸引懸浮微粒或者是超吸引浮懸微粒那我想請教就是說在2024年的時候環境部有"},{"start":8781.269,"end":8799.059,"text":"跟教育部有舉辦過這個第五屆的空品競賽那其中就是中央大學的學生他們跟就是那個機械工程學系的學生他們就是構思創新了一個機車的煞車集成系統"},{"start":8800.04,"end":8803.662,"text":"我想請教就是說因為其實台灣很多騎摩托車或者是開車如果說我們這樣的一個機車的煞車集成系統如果可以成為市場中可能就市場化未來可能會可以改善到我們機車煞車時候的這種操戲"},{"start":8830.34,"end":8852.06,"text":"扶玄为力我不知道因为次长当时也有去参加我颁奖的你颁奖的对那次长也有特别提到就是说这个好像也不错那会协助就是说让它市场化那我想请教次长你针对这一部分未来可能用在我们的这个机车"},{"start":8853.782,"end":8862.117,"text":"機車上面那我覺得這個應該也有一些市場那我想請教這個次長你針對這一部分你有什麼樣的這個想法"},{"start":8863.087,"end":8886.207,"text":"謝文的質詢那這個在我們的空品白皮書裡面其實我們也有提到我們除了這個汽機車的排氣我們要去管制之外對於灰尾氣排放的部分它是因為煞車或者是輪胎在地面磨損所造成的揚起的這一種粉塵也是我們必須要特別關注的議題這個已經我們已經進階到這樣的一個"},{"start":8889.87,"end":8913.435,"text":"未來的空瓶的未來10年的一個方向那那一天的頒獎給你之後其實也有有人問到我這個問題我覺得這個是一個很好的研究應該後續值得去推廣或媒合那據我了解好像後來我們也有跟這一個團隊這邊有談有討論過了解他們的一些想法那因為現在目前沒有"},{"start":8915.016,"end":8922.823,"text":"車廠或者是有人願意去投入這樣的一個經費讓他可以量化或什麼那我們是不是"},{"start":8924.654,"end":8947.416,"text":"我們繼續再來看這個後續怎麼樣可以來這個應用蠻好的可是如果沒有人要去採用的時候那這個就很可惜其實我看到這個新聞的時候我會覺得說有這樣的這個團隊學生他願意去研發這樣的東西出來那其實就符合我們現在非排氣出來的這種系懸浮微粒"},{"start":8948.497,"end":8963.504,"text":"變成說他可以收集的話如果他的經費他的這個預算又不是很高的話其實我覺得他應該可以推動到這個機車好就是說機車未來我們如果說這個法設立之後那如果要讓他"},{"start":8964.664,"end":8984.219,"text":"這種非排氣出來的那種吸水懸浮微粒的話我覺得這是一個很好的方式啦所以我們也希望就是環境部應該也要去協助未來我們希望能夠收集這樣子的一個粉塵我覺得這如果說可以大量的"},{"start":8985.06,"end":9006.884,"text":"就是運用在這個機車上面的話其實我覺得可以應該空氣品質應該可以改善因為從台北市的上下班時間你看到整個那個馬路上或者是橋你看到就是機車真的非常多甚至其他都市地區機車就是很多人上班族代步的一個工具那如果說要讓我們的這個"},{"start":9009.765,"end":9019.582,"text":"空氣品質再好的話其實我覺得這應該也是一個改善的方式之一然後所以我們也希望說環境部針對這部分應該也要去協助"},{"start":9020.754,"end":9043.343,"text":"黃委員你剛剛的質詢也許了一個願望我們會把他拉進來跟黃委員那個一樣好另外我想請教就是說以目前我們針對非排氣出來的這種細懸浮微粒的譬如說剎車皮啊或者是什麼金屬粉塵之類的你們有做這樣的一個管控嗎那有做這樣的一個監測嗎"},{"start":9047.999,"end":9056.95,"text":"因為針對這個非尾氣排放這個部分我們現在有納入空品白筆書裡面所以我剛剛在報告的時候也特別有提到那這個"},{"start":9059.465,"end":9079.675,"text":"未來的環境部每半年我們會選定全國至少22處的空氣品質監測站來執行這個空氣中重金屬包括鉛 隔 鞏 鎳 酸及鈦二辛的採樣檢測工作來掌握這個濾狀污染物的有害空氣污染物的一個情況"},{"start":9080.996,"end":9094.865,"text":"那我想這個是我們未來十年我們在空氣品質管理上面我們的一個重點所以這個是未來十年要做的工作現在已經現在已經每半年已經開始做這樣的事情了"},{"start":9095.826,"end":9122.484,"text":"你是說針對非排氣的非排氣管這個車輛的排放的這種你們已經開始做了嗎還是還沒跟委員報告因為就是有關非軌跡部分的相關的方法雖然學術界有在進行但是我們也需要再蒐集才能推動但是因為非軌跡排放以後到空氣中那空氣中的情況是我們民眾所關切的所以其實我們現在已經有每半年"},{"start":9125.766,"end":9148.171,"text":"所以現在已經開始做了對 但不是針對飛尾器而是針對整個空氣中的情況是 所以整個空氣中不一定是不一定是那個排氣可能就其他的狀況可能都你們已經開始試著在做所以我們已經每半年都有監測那目前監測的結果相較於歐美國家的標準來看我們目前都還遠低那個標準"},{"start":9151.72,"end":9161.446,"text":"其實我是覺得說國人一方面會覺得說在冬天尤其是冬天的時候整個空氣品質不是那麼好尤其是中部地區"},{"start":9162.625,"end":9189.039,"text":"那一個可能是擴散可能擴散不好所以會造成整個冬天的話整個空氣不好那大家對我們的空氣品質也有有所要求所以剛剛部長有特別提到就是說未來我們可能朝向這個細懸浮微粒或者是超細浮懸微粒這個我們還要再加強那歐盟我知道說歐盟可能他們明年就要開始實施"},{"start":9190.658,"end":9212.494,"text":"他們是希望所有會員國在兩年之內也就是明年12月11號的時候開始進行監測開始監測那我們也是我們已經開始我們102年就在台大那邊我們已經開始在監測那高雄市在103年結合那個NASA就是美國太空總署"},{"start":9214.836,"end":9236.873,"text":"113我們是113高雄的部分112是台北那台中這個部分目前我們也會設站在台東大道跟西屯那邊我們會設這樣的站來監測好所以我們是走在歐盟的前面我們等於是之前有學者有關心到這個議題然後我們就開始啟動了那未來當然這個部分也會跟這個衛福部這邊密切來合作"},{"start":9237.153,"end":9265.54,"text":"是好那我們希望就是說這個改善全國的這個空氣品質其實我們剛剛提的那個部分就是這個研究團隊所研發出來的這種收集粉塵的這種我覺得這個應該可以去協助那另外因為早上也有幾位委員有特別提到就是說有關光電的這個議題我在這邊要跟這個次長有提到就是說"},{"start":9267.381,"end":9291.375,"text":"相信我們現在雖然這個能源這個多方譬如說不論是風電或者是光電或者是這個火力發電水力發電種種啦那光電目前已經讓大家會覺得說印象很差了就是說地方政府核准那也許他就就是違法亂開發我覺得這一點是讓所有的人"},{"start":9295.897,"end":9317.022,"text":"覺得說這個光電本來光電大家會覺得說可能這個比較環保那現在想一想如果他們是這樣子不按照這個規定不按照這個正常的程序來的話其實會讓所有的國人的印象對於光電來講是會印象非常的差所以我是不是可以針對高雄的這一件環境部應該針對這一件你們應該也有所了解"},{"start":9321.443,"end":9336.224,"text":"那我是不是可以再聽未來相關的這樣的一個光電的一個開發我覺得中央跟地方政府我覺得你們應該也要有所責任而不是核准之後然後業者他如果不按照這樣的一個"},{"start":9337.345,"end":9352.114,"text":"圖面去開發或者是不按照這樣規定去開發的話我覺得我們應該要有更嚴厲的罰則或者是甚至未來這家公司你就不能讓他有任何的這種開發行為我是不是請次長回覆一下"},{"start":9353.916,"end":9366.328,"text":"謝謝因為在那個環評的規定裡面已經有寫了就是說如果經過經濟部同意的時候那但我覺得這個經濟部同意應該是要有條件的所以我剛剛我也跟署長這邊去詢問跟了解他也是對於這種"},{"start":9368.07,"end":9385.477,"text":"使用的條件它是有一些審查的機制在這裡未來就是怎麼樣去加強落實避免像這樣的對環境的危害本來是要創造綠能的結果它先把環境破壞了那這樣就不是我們要追求的方向沒錯所以我覺得說這種如果違規的話我覺得應該要有更重的一個罰則"},{"start":9389.959,"end":9407.872,"text":"也希望就是說中央跟地方針對這一部分就剛剛次長講的我們是希望這個創造綠能那不是因為你要創造這個綠能然後反而去破壞我們整個環境這個是我們不樂見的好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝房西方委員發言謝謝次長下一位林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":9421.718,"end":9424.062,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們次長有請次長委員好 次長 你們的部長去出國嗎"},{"start":9435.713,"end":9441.155,"text":"公務行程那根據氣候變遷這個因應法第29條還有你們環境部公布的執法的內容現在企業只要提出了自主減量計畫而且獲得你們的核定以後呢他們的碳費的費率可以享受到那種打折打到"},{"start":9457.262,"end":9463.469,"text":"一折甚至達到骨折的最好的這個費率那如果企業選擇對其國際的SBT的這個血檢率碳費一噸是50元那如果是對其我國的NDC國家制定貢獻的技術標杆那一噸是100元"},{"start":9479.446,"end":9480.908,"text":"那更關鍵的是這個高碳洩漏風險行業還可以適用排放量調整係數就是我剛才講的打一折打到骨折使最終實際繳納的碳費降到一噸只要10塊錢或者是20元"},{"start":9496.467,"end":9524.428,"text":"對企業來講非常非常的便宜但是他要申請這個自主減量的時候要填寫四個表格 四種資料第一個是事業的基本資料第二個是指定目標計畫然後第三個是減量的措施規劃第四個是年度指定的目標和查核點的規劃這個是個別企業去申報自主減量要填寫這四項資料 對不對"},{"start":9525.888,"end":9543.368,"text":"那如果是這個共同申請模式要額外再填寫哪一種資料我可以請我們蔡組長說明嗎你不知道你是不是主管這個的我不是我不是督導這個業務的那沒關係你不用他說明我跟你報告就好了不敢同一個"},{"start":9544.773,"end":9555.744,"text":"同一個法人下署事業加總排放量的資料表計算各年度預估排放量以及加總排放量這個署長 對吧是吧"},{"start":9560.933,"end":9562.875,"text":"可是我現在要談的是說你們這種自主減量計畫的資訊公開卻做得很爛就是說我們動輒你要知道這是一個非常嚴重的一個嚴肅的課題 署長"},{"start":9580.431,"end":9596.496,"text":"當一個計劃可以為企業帶來數千萬甚至上億元的碳費減免的時候它的內容的嚴謹性、真實性還有可執行性要受到最嚴格的公共檢視"},{"start":9598.197,"end":9609.28,"text":"而我現在討論的就是說那你們怎麼樣讓這份公共檢視的公開透明給打折了所以要問你們自主減量計畫為這個企業省下數千萬上億元你知道數千萬上億元的意思是何在嗎就是說這本來是企業的這個經營成本"},{"start":9622.483,"end":9633.868,"text":"那你讓他省掉了這些費率然後他就可以把成本給外部化他到底是要用在這個自主減真的實質的減碳或者是丟給社會來成本外部化去擴大他的公司的利潤這是兩件事喔"},{"start":9642.612,"end":9662.619,"text":"所以你們的制度設計是這個洞見觀瞻啦而我今天就要請教你們的自主減量計畫的制度從誘因的設計到監督的機制到底是在鼓勵實質的減碳還是制度現在偷渡鼓勵投機票率假的這樣"},{"start":9664.892,"end":9667.275,"text":"市長你不知道沒關係 書店在那這個署長這個資訊公開非常不足因為自主減量計畫的管理辦法你們第7條講中央機關得將自主減碳計畫因核定事項定期公開為什麼是得"},{"start":9683.882,"end":9687.467,"text":"他可以對一棟50坪、100坪跟國際幣蓋他的碳費已經非常非常便宜了還可以打折打到骨折存10坪、20坪然後他到底做了什麼自主減量你們還不強制要求公開"},{"start":9702.105,"end":9705.587,"text":"然後公開的項目還設限一般的個別企業的申報他必須要公開包括計畫邊界、目標年及年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率的級別、核定減量的措施還有查核的方式"},{"start":9724.398,"end":9737.832,"text":"那同時呢如果是個別事業而言事業需同時達到各年度的溫室氣體排放量和逐年減量措施執行的進度都要標示出來才可以有所謂的優惠費率"},{"start":9741.752,"end":9745.497,"text":"你到底是設定多少目標 你執行這個目標的進度怎麼樣我們大家看 合定了 有在做嗎這樣才可以適用優惠費率啊在這個資訊公開的設計上 你們在與共同申請就不一樣了"},{"start":9761.274,"end":9765.017,"text":"共同申請的一間大企業通常共同申請的企業規模是大過於個別企業申請的規模的共同申請大企業裡面下屬的所有事業全部加總在一起一起申報一起申請"},{"start":9780.802,"end":9799.957,"text":"然後在這裡面只需要公開查核總排放量 剛才公開這個然後大家都想如果沒有達到這個查核的總排放量的時候才會進一步查核各子公司的年度指定目標在資訊公開機制的設計上 個別企業的申報跟共同申請的法人之間差太多 稍含"},{"start":9807.823,"end":9821.154,"text":"單一企業獨立申請的時候所有資料都要公開但是多個事業共同子公司合在一起政府公司共同申請的時候只需要揭露那個年度指定的目標加總"},{"start":9822.515,"end":9838.465,"text":"而不需要公開具體的減量措施也不需要公開查核的方式導致在共同申請的模式下 揭露的資訊透明度相當的低影響了政策的公平性和成效署長 你有什麼想法"},{"start":9841.854,"end":9852.44,"text":"跟委員報告只要是我們碳費徵收對象的工廠那他提了自主減量計畫就必須要按照我們自主減剛剛委員提到的自主減量計畫管理辦法第七條來做資訊我現在在說什麼我現在在說的重點是個別企業申請跟共同申請"},{"start":9862.326,"end":9877.071,"text":"為什麼資訊公開透明的內容差這麼多而我們知道個別企業的自主減量其實相對於共同申請的模式共同申請模式的企業是六大規模六大財團的結果是不透明然後被苛責的公共公開的這個接受檢視的項目是這麼少"},{"start":9886.834,"end":9891.578,"text":"這樣讓大企業大財團嘛 我現在說是這樣啦不會 這個共同申請我們還是會要求他底下的每一個廠他要提出來的這些資訊我現在講的是公開給大家看啦 不是你要求啦我當然知道他申請的時候資料都要跟你們申請通通都要檢視啦 給你們啦我現在是人民要看公民要檢視啦"},{"start":9911.773,"end":9913.916,"text":"動輒給他們幾千萬的省下他們的繳費上億元沒納碳費不用交給全國人民一起來檢視嗎"},{"start":9923.456,"end":9949.593,"text":"它的核心目標是鼓勵企業自主減碳而不是只有被動的繳納碳費繳少一點所以你擁有享有優惠的碳費的時候除了你們政府要建立嚴格的審查機制確保減碳行動的真實性和有效性以外不是在變相的減輕企業負擔削弱政策的效果我們要的是我們要的是"},{"start":9950.834,"end":9955.567,"text":"公開透明 資訊揭露 我在問你資訊揭露的問題啦"},{"start":9956.98,"end":9986.303,"text":"是 跟委員報告我們現在進行的進度是正在受理這一些自主減量計畫的審查那接下來審查之後的資訊公開我想不管是這個共同申請或者是個別提出來的申請我們都會用同樣的方式來做資訊公開我先要問妳 妳是作為一個署長嘛對個別申請跟共同申請所需要揭露的所有的內容都會完全一致一模一樣嗎是 我們會接下來會用這樣方式你目前沒有看到喔"},{"start":9987.323,"end":10006.388,"text":"因為我們現在正在做這個受理審查的工作我現在要看到的是他們的指定目標基準年安全場排放計算基礎標竿指定血檢力計算全場排放活動數據減量措施成效說明減量措施預算經費"},{"start":10008.579,"end":10037.302,"text":"還有這個目標年的污漬氣體逐年排放量他們的執行進度查核點的規劃通通會公開嗎是我們會共同申請跟個別申請在這個資訊公開的要求會是一樣的資訊公開是一樣是我講剛才念的那一些全部嗎還是一樣的精簡我們現在的資訊公開一定是按照我們現在的自主減量計畫辦法的第七條你的自主減量的辦法第七條怎麼講"},{"start":10040.494,"end":10048.363,"text":"計劃編切目標年年度指定目標執行期間優惠費率級別核定減量措施及查核方式通通都會公開嗎全部嗎"},{"start":10051.243,"end":10057.568,"text":"我們目前是按照這個條文來做這個規劃那會公開在這個自主減量計畫的網站我現在講的是你會不會全部都公開你不要這邊講那些會按照這個規定來我現在跟你講自主減量計畫的資訊完全揭露公開也可以避免企業票率讓社會大眾檢視企業的減碳承諾是否真實可信啊"},{"start":10074.58,"end":10079.184,"text":"大家給你承諾這樣 但你資訊沒有公開給大家看只有你們內部看得到 我們都看不到誰知道這個到底給他減的這一些成本 他用來實質減碳的還是去擴大到他累積到他公司的利潤的累積為了賺更多錢 還是真的投入到實質的減碳裡面我們為什麼要公開你知道嗎 是為了幫你們政府"},{"start":10102.162,"end":10105.063,"text":"有助於提高企業對外負責的壓力讓減排的承諾具體化而且揭露自主減量計畫有助於機構投資人掌握企業的碳排放情況"},{"start":10117.668,"end":10120.429,"text":"減量的策略還有目標執行的進度強化企業的影響力你知道這種自主減量計畫當中企業需要計算個別減量措施及其對應的預估年稅減量而且加總算計出各年度溫室氣體排放量這些資訊可以評估不同產業的技術可行性和減排的能力"},{"start":10144.361,"end":10170.753,"text":"要作為未來計算各排放元排放總量的基礎而且進而去制定合理的逐年總量的減排路徑所以我們就是這樣子你是省下這筆巨額的碳費是真的依據到實質的減碳行動上面而不是讓企業的財報上利潤不斷的累積所以我們在這裡署長制度設計上"},{"start":10172.936,"end":10192.184,"text":"絕對不能允許共同申請的資訊揭露標準低於單一企業的申請民間團體已經很明確的跟你們講要公開每年的執行報告個別減量措施的預估年稅減量還有減量措施預算經費表等相關資訊署長你這裡到底有沒有辦法我剛剛講的"},{"start":10201.147,"end":10224.303,"text":"每年的知情報告個別減量的預估年稅減量還有減量措施預算經費表建置一個公開透明可供全民檢視的自主減量計畫申報平台給大家看可以嗎是 這個我們本來在收費辦法裡面自主減量計畫管理辦法就有這樣子一個公開的一個規定沒有我現在告訴你本來是政府得"},{"start":10230.493,"end":10249.994,"text":"對但是我們現在就是這個條文裡面的得公開的這些我們項目都會公開我現在告訴你說每年的執行報告會公開嗎會個別共同申請喔是個別減量措施的預估年稅減量會公開嗎會減量措施的預算經費表會公開嗎會"},{"start":10253.137,"end":10270.32,"text":"我希望都全部公開因為公開資訊有助於讓大企業也投資者有股票上市公司投資者消費者都可以評估企業低碳轉型或清潔製程導入的速度和方向而且判斷它是不是符合政策目標"},{"start":10271.241,"end":10294.519,"text":"作為投資和消費這一家大企業的依據然後建立起人民對他的信任而且讓如果使用再生能源使用率提升或燃煤鍋爐的淘汰進度這些資訊都攸關到企業減碳的績效而且影響到一般民眾的健康權益所以這個很重要"},{"start":10295.703,"end":10296.445,"text":"我們希望我們給他這麼少一棟10顆20顆的碳費"},{"start":10302.079,"end":10327.506,"text":"你為一間公司欠幾千萬 省幾千萬 整頁的稅金匯率你到底有真的在做檢排嗎我們要檢視 不是只有政府在檢視我們人民也要檢視所以今天在這裡 我先談到這裡公開透明 這個是引進公民監督 進而減少政府的壓力"},{"start":10328.769,"end":10352.683,"text":"大家一起幫你看 政府不是施壓於政府而已這企業不是施壓於政府 壓力全民都扛著 大家一起看檢慶政府的壓力啊 有沒有 有啊所以我們絕對不允許這個經營成本丟給社會 然後他不減排然後只有把稅金蓋起來 大家英語本都追 我們不能接受"},{"start":10355.595,"end":10369.506,"text":"這樣子可以嗎 署長那你們什麼時候要公告他們共同申請的模式所有應該公開的細項你們什麼時候要公告"},{"start":10370.792,"end":10388.718,"text":"我們應該在年底吧因為現在正在進行這些資料的審查那資訊公開的這個網站然後這個做法我們會在年底你們資料的審查其實是已經停留在20世紀我就不講了因為是下一個要質詢的問題因為時間有限但是我就要告訴你說依據第7條得將自主檢探計畫應核定事項定期公開你們"},{"start":10395.661,"end":10416.198,"text":"應公開全部所有的應公開事項這個東西你說年底年底會公開好那我們就等著看謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員的發言也謝謝次長跟署長的答詢我們下一位要麻煩我們的召委劉建國委員來發言"},{"start":10423.72,"end":10448.285,"text":"我們在洗手間的劉委員可能應該很快就會進來請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長還有交通部司長交通部司長交通公務運輸經理事的司長"},{"start":10453.491,"end":10478.722,"text":"我首先感謝我們的省次還有我們的彭部長針對主席今天所排的PM0.1相關的這些議題有公開的做一些正向的一些回應我們準備預計要來設這個兩站的PM0.1的監測站甚至於還有一些相關的一些比較積極的回應不過我還是覺得"},{"start":10479.702,"end":10482.804,"text":"可以再更具體一點因為過去我們從PM10一直到PM2.5我們說到這個患者是更對人體有危害的細菌回力就PM2.5對不對"},{"start":10497.774,"end":10518.354,"text":"那P2.5當時也很多民間的一些朋友透過影片透過記者會透過很多的方式然後讓到最後政府來重視然後我們有效的到剛剛次長的一些報告裡面看到我們有明顯的不管BNT P2.5都有具體的這樣的下降的這樣的一個趨勢所以這個我們也必須要跟"},{"start":10522.438,"end":10528.605,"text":"環境部來做一個一定的程度的肯定但是當然也有相關的部位的這樣的一個機關來做相關配合包括我們過去教育部的這個空瓶齊等等等等諸如此類那我想是政府是一致的來面對這個事情然後共同的來分工然後來做處理"},{"start":10542.66,"end":10558.319,"text":"一樣現在我們面對到PM0.1的時候可能這個季度要更快因為如果從PM10到PM0.1這是相近差了100倍啦然後超乎細學的為例剛剛王志俊也有醫療的背景又特別提出這事情對人體的危害"},{"start":10560.521,"end":10564.564,"text":"更深層更加劇那當然也必須要有相關的一些依據來做我們整個施政應變的這樣的一個處理的方式所以我要特別提醒環境部我們不要在以過去剛剛面對到社會輿論針對重視PN2.5的情況之下"},{"start":10580.919,"end":10602.024,"text":"有時候很多還沒有得到正確的一些數據所以可能我們還必須要收集到一定完整的怎樣程度之後我們才來做這個有時候會為時已晚這個有時候也是一個民主進步國家不應該有的這樣的態度啦所以我是希望用歐盟現在包含世界衛生組織都有特別提到BN0.1"},{"start":10604.124,"end":10627.19,"text":"有什麼情況之下可以讓我們公部門動得更快收集的數據更多甚至我們可以超前部署來維護國人的身體健康因為畢竟我是從0610啦包含昨天也有一屆的先進包含王志英委員大家都非常關心那一屆從維護國人的健康的角度看到這種空氣的危害看到"},{"start":10628.23,"end":10641.635,"text":"這個PM0.1是叫做超細旋微粒有更深層的這樣的一個對身體的危害的情況之下所以我們的速度可能我們不敢講說100倍但是確實從PM2.5對照現在PM0.1那真的是我們可能要感人的速度要更快一些這是第一點那第二點"},{"start":10651.258,"end":10657.581,"text":"過去我們要治理這個沙塵暴的時候坦白講這叫霸凌紅白沙這霸凌紅白沙很多人覺得這是不可能改變的事因為整個河川的一個流向跟上游度有所謂的積極攔戎岩破壞整體的水流的生態大家覺得這個事情是很難去做改善"},{"start":10670.208,"end":10687.461,"text":"但是最終最終我們從106年看到超過好幾天的1000這個微顆粒方米的情況之下最後最終也是我們現任的總統當時的行政院院長講了一句讓大家非常感動然後又配合公部門的積極的這樣的一個處理所以我們從過去冬季季風來臨的時候將近有60天的這個超過"},{"start":10695.867,"end":10711.692,"text":"這個空氣品質非常惡劣的情況之下限縮到最後兩天甚至於包含確認度有三次的颱風破壞了原有的這些工滑那我還可以說在13天左右這代表說要走就不走啦"},{"start":10713.512,"end":10740.899,"text":"再來就是剛才賴院長特別強調只要政府願意做 經費無上限只要政府願意做 就經費無上限這樣的一個魄力跟決心我想很多事情都可以去克服 改善的好 所以我現在就要就教請教次長現在全國我們所有的空瓶站地方先不算就我們環境部 轄管的空瓶站固定跟移動的總共有幾站"},{"start":10742.076,"end":10752.348,"text":"我們有78座的這個監測站這是中央的好78座監測站那固定是幾站移動是幾站移動車的部分我們有三部車站"},{"start":10761.555,"end":10778.893,"text":"我們那個監測車的部分一般的監測車就跟監測上一樣大概是12台那另外有光化學的監測車這個是移動的空品站對不對好那我們的78座有這側固定的污染源的跟這移動的污染源比例是怎麼樣"},{"start":10781.519,"end":10807.045,"text":"我們其實分類上面我們是以人體暴露的角度來分類所以一般監測站就針對人體暴露人口比較多的地方去設置的這個是56個站大部分都是這種站交通的站比較少目前是6個站另外工業站目前是兩個站還有國家公園站有兩個還有背景站三個"},{"start":10808.462,"end":10833.877,"text":"依照人口數去設這個固定的公平站嘛對不對所以有56嘛然後其他工業區的等等等諸如此類嘛對不對然後交通監測站的設置的一個根據是什麼一個按照人口那一個是不是按照車輛車流量的密度車流量的密度嘛對不對所以車流量的密度會隨著車輛的增加它的密度也應該會相對增加嘛"},{"start":10834.81,"end":10853.963,"text":"如果從空的角度人口增加當然就是一個排放增加之外但就空間來看的話我不可能隨著那個人口數增加就車站就無上限一直上升"},{"start":10855.603,"end":10882.35,"text":"你不用講到極端你講到極端就不對了是說隨著人口的增加基本上你空瓶站還是要佈建相對增加這是一定比例當然你設置的空間有限的情況之下你還是要想辦法去克服但是不是說無限的上升到極致也不可能對不對但是我還是要提醒市長2021開始是生不如死的人口結構快速的轉變"},{"start":10883.51,"end":10905.949,"text":"所以有很多地方的縣市基本上它的人口是快速的在下落就像我本縣就像你的故鄉雲林縣從一百零四年一直到現在你知道一點減少多少人口嗎不知道你都沒有關心你自己的故鄉所以你的故鄉中南部的空氣品質一直不是很好你知道嗎一點不見了六千人一點不見六千人"},{"start":10910.436,"end":10929.672,"text":"這樣的空品站的設置如果按照人口數先不談增加所以你不用去擔心那個極致的東西你反而是下降在下降的情況之下你空品站的部件你是不是要有重新盤整思考去做處理這其一啦好那我們現在討論交通策站"},{"start":10930.595,"end":10950.811,"text":"那加上之後為什麼要請市長上來市長你可不可以大肆跟我們講說一下說明一下三年就好還是你如果記得更清楚講五年都好台灣的整體的機動車韓電車啦韓工程車啦公車啦機器機車啦這五年是往上成長還是往下掉"},{"start":10953.934,"end":10978.987,"text":"跟我們報告TOTAL的話應該是維護往上升維護往上升對不對好那維護往上升如果依照剛剛我們市長所講的啦按人口數增加固定的空品站必須部件也要相對的增加那車輛持續在增加那個交通的監測站也一定是必要隨著增加才對嘛"},{"start":10980.067,"end":10984.492,"text":"這六站 中央轄管這六站已經維持幾年了不增不減請回答我一下好不好這六站"},{"start":10992.026,"end":11009.813,"text":"六月站的部分應該從那時候民國80年初的時候開始到現在民國80年初嘛對不對那市長你可不可以再答呼我一下80年一直到現在114年我剛剛講到全國的機動車成長比例弧度是不是可以大臣跟我們說明一下"},{"start":11011.564,"end":11027.776,"text":"跟委員報告一下大概每年成長都是微乎那如果說從80幾年到現在的話是有一定的數量那目前整個總數的部分我大概跟委員報告一下大概機車的部分不管是這一個燃油跟這一個電動的部分大概是1400多萬輛"},{"start":11029.717,"end":11050.71,"text":"然後這個小客車的部分 小型車輛 包括小貨車這些部分目前大概736萬輛然後這個大型車 大型車包括大貨車 大客車這些相關的部分大概也有30幾萬輛"},{"start":11053.852,"end":11062.585,"text":"那所以這個目前國內的一個大大小小的車輛加起來基本上是超過我們的這一個人口數對 超過人口數嘛 對不對已經超過2300萬嘛現金嘛 對不對那民國80年的時候"},{"start":11068.7,"end":11094.301,"text":"多少嘛大致的那時候你還沒有當市長各位有報這個數據我可能再查一下因為每年有微幅增加嘛對不對微幅增加可能0.5到1%嘛假設嘛80幾年到現在應該增加二三十趴不會過吧不為過吧不為過嘛對不對好那相對著我們80幾年前就是六站的交通交通品質監測站然後20幾年後還是六站"},{"start":11098.721,"end":11100.745,"text":"這樣的比例對嗎?這樣偵測出來的數據夠科學嗎?請教一下,打呼我"},{"start":11110.393,"end":11130.629,"text":"過去的監測來講,我們發現了一些主要的污染物,包括PM2.0,PM10,還有一個很重要的就是臭氧臭氧在交通站事實上是測不太出來,因為有交通排放會有抵銷所以過去的著重在臭氧的污染跟懸浮活力的污染那也是比較著重在一般車站的設置"},{"start":11131.772,"end":11155.627,"text":"不是啦,市長,剛剛有委員垂詢你們的時候,是垂詢市長嘛就是那個固定站在3樓,在頂樓,跟交通車站是在平面基本上所測出來的狀況就不一樣嘛,對不對那比較貼近的應該是在平面嘛那我現在先講,剛剛你答覆我嘛如果固定的,基本上按人口數嘛,的增加余火嘛,對不對好,那車輛,我就用這種邏輯來討論就好了"},{"start":11160.338,"end":11174.606,"text":"應該是要改善了啦應該是要更記起來面對啦應該二十幾年來不可能台灣這麼快速成長的這些車輛的總數已經超過台灣的總人口數的情況之下當然啦 你還可以把它細分出來"},{"start":11176.327,"end":11194.54,"text":"電動車的污染當然是低嘛你還是可以把它氣溫出來不過我相信二三十幾年來的電動車的比例基本上占全部增加車輛的比例它還是有一定的比例啦不過不過還是不會高於當時八十幾年前的"},{"start":11195.18,"end":11222.227,"text":"民國八十幾年前的那個車輛的總數啦扣掉電動車啦所以我是提醒今天我們是要面對更嚴峻的這個超細旋虎為力的對人體的危害所以我希望我希望我們的基本上的工具就叫做空氣秉直監測站不管你 而且這個歐盟這邊也提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提提"},{"start":11223.983,"end":11249.609,"text":"這個島嶼國家有兩千三百多萬輛的車輛在行駛在我們的土地上你的空品站就不可能維持在民國八十幾年的時候的數量然後提供出來的數據我就要向你急劇的挑戰了委員謝謝你的質詢 簡單講就這樣而已了解我知道那因為剛一開始就講說以前根本沒有人在關心PM1甚至PM0.1現在已經知道說PM0.1主要的成因就是"},{"start":11253.617,"end":11277.646,"text":"車輛移動這些所造成的嗎所以去調查監測也是歐盟跟國際的趨勢嗎你沒有監測你怎麼知道還有數據你怎麼去研究你怎麼去找出對策所以當然這個部分我們也要與時俱進啦做一下調整好不好我請教回去之後我們再研議一下這個監測也一定要有一定的一定的一個就像我們要做相關研究Data的資料你要採得足夠吧"},{"start":11278.666,"end":11296.759,"text":"對不對 你要怎麼去採取足夠的電腦資料可能你在部件上就不能依照民國80年前的這樣的一個部件來應付現在114年的狀態嘛我要表達是這樣嘛就剛剛開場就講了 以前在PNP的時候大家都在討論說PNP有時候很多人會說那是會補兩點嗎"},{"start":11301.903,"end":11327.601,"text":"馬國勇最早講搞不清楚啊但是現在大家你跟他們講PM10、PM2.5可能大家都很清楚的嘛而且現在是醫界來主動的發起這樣的聲音從過去PM2.5的經驗所在然後歐盟也在202612月底就要入華了所以我今天是具體要跟次長講也跟次長講說可能我們要更積極一點空黃我們要大修了嘛"},{"start":11328.061,"end":11346.704,"text":"要不要順勢而為把TN0.1也一併納入考量這其一嘛那其二你的交通這個監測站要不要擴大部件了那多少個部件才符合現在你要去採集到的這個Data資料可做真正實際上的科學的根據"},{"start":11348.506,"end":11357.781,"text":"來維護我們的空氣品質然後保護保障國人的健康也呼籲一切對大家的這樣的一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個"},{"start":11358.852,"end":11385.151,"text":"應該是這樣嗎?一公會的嗎?我們回來研議一個月這每天要勤勉的一秒鐘不去空氣有的人身體就不好兩秒鐘不去空氣身體就不好而且我再最後講一句話站在你的這個位置曾經也是我們前衛生署的署長心臟科的權威三家醫學中心的院長最後確診失智長達五年"},{"start":11386.058,"end":11400.743,"text":"人都已經走了那空氣汙染跟失智有直接的關係喔跟十大台灣的十大疾病有直接間接的關係喔所以維護國人健康不是只有衛生部環境部站在整體環境保護的立場"},{"start":11402.264,"end":11414.609,"text":"我想這個速度跟與時俱進的這種作為要更積極啦結果其實已經 要算時間是很長的啦因為每天都要付錢嘛 每天都是要面對這個事情嘛一個月內嘛 兩個事情而已 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":11424.134,"end":11434.625,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員的發言也謝謝市長跟市長的回應我們下一位請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英不在下一位請麥玉春委員發言"},{"start":11451.206,"end":11456.949,"text":"就是要有請那個環境部的次長好請次長好"},{"start":11464.589,"end":11480.6,"text":"市長好大家都知道說PM2.5是空氣污染的重要指標但其實更細更危害的就是我們的PM0.1這種連口罩都擋不住的超細的選服為例現在台灣幾乎沒人在監測也沒人在管制"},{"start":11493.729,"end":11517.525,"text":"我們要請教一下我們的環境部現在有針對像台中火力發電廠這種的大型燃煤測試還有去監測我們PM0.1的排放嗎不是PM2.5喔是PM0.1有沒有專案的監測還有說如果"},{"start":11521.087,"end":11549.913,"text":"我們火力全開對周邊的PM0.1的濃度影響我們有數據嗎跟委員報告一下那個剛剛委員講說歐盟的部分那歐盟是在2024年的11月的時候才要求就是歐盟的會員國在兩年之內他必須要去開始設監測站要去監測PM0.1也就是說去年"},{"start":11551.033,"end":11566.989,"text":"年底的時候才開始要求那我們台灣呢是在112年的時候我們在台大的部分我們請台大一個教授團隊他們開始監測設在這一個基隆路三段長津街口那有一個PM0.1的監測站"},{"start":11568.931,"end":11595.788,"text":"那在去年的二月的時候我們高雄也結合了這個美國太空總署NASA他們剛好有一個計畫要做亞洲地區的垂直的監測那國內總共有15所大學40個教授投入這個計畫所以在高雄部分我們也有PM0.1的監測站歐盟才從去年底要求兩年後要設在這個部分也跟委員做一個說明"},{"start":11597.54,"end":11608.426,"text":"你停留在上一個委員的時空 我問的是台中我們台中我們問了台中是說我們有沒有這個數據不是要去講八郎 八郎要怎麼做我們現在我們全國的PM0.1的來源比例有掌握嗎有數據嗎 就是說燃煤 電廠 車流工業 製作業等哪一個"},{"start":11628.786,"end":11634.611,"text":"那個占比最高 還有是哪一個 我們想挖你的直接說就是在這個不是去說別人的說所以根本沒有就是PM0.1的排放的清單不是"},{"start":11645.161,"end":11649.526,"text":"學校在做 要是白人在做 要是高雄在做台中的人民很可憐耶台中說到高雄 你是要拍高雄的拍馬屁嗎所以重點就是我們要說有沒有這個數據有沒有這樣子的PM0.1的排放清單你有在做嗎"},{"start":11667.025,"end":11687.513,"text":"問是你要做嗎?說國語聽不懂 說台語可以嗎?台語也可以啦台語就是台中市現在在台中台灣大道 以前的中港路也設了一個站三十多年也設了一個站 有兩個站在台中所以台北市有一個 台中市有兩個 國中市有三個我們是PM0.1啊 不是說PM2.5啊進程就是大家都不要注意PM0.1這個問題啦"},{"start":11694.296,"end":11700.682,"text":"現在歐盟開始鼓勵要求他們的會員局努力以後來設P&E的監測委員補就說我們台灣已經開始了 已經起步了所以我們已經開始 我們開始但是我們就是有參考歐盟的標準 對不對"},{"start":11714.415,"end":11716.656,"text":"所以現在就是說我們的法規還有就是說我們的管制方法有沒有具體的時程表還有我們說一樣不要在演繹中因為大家都聽你的演繹中 討論中"},{"start":11734.604,"end":11742.151,"text":"還有就是在檢討中所以我們希望的就是要說清楚我們進入哪一個階段還有沒有這個時程因為我們現在都在說我們PM0.1的法規還有管制的方法有沒有具體的這樣子的一個法規出來"},{"start":11755.763,"end":11756.984,"text":"所以我們針對這樣子的排放的技術還有像說我們的燃煤電廠的設備有沒有評估過能不能處理PM0.1台中電廠這些空污防滯的設備"},{"start":11772.674,"end":11777.557,"text":"他們能不能處理 你說有多少不是只有有 就是說你講有 但是很多人沒有看到也沒有沒有具體的所以我們希望說 還是說怎麼樣如果處理我們的環境部是不是該要求台電淘汰設備或者是改為燃氣的發電這個部分我們要有具體的啦 數據啦"},{"start":11801.99,"end":11828.287,"text":"謝謝委員的質詢那這個很重要就是委員有點出一個重點PM0.1根據目前來看因為過去就是沒有去做監測嘛所以缺少這個先測的數據所以到目前為止還沒有世界衛生組織或是歐盟都還沒有管制標準現在沒有啦現在就是在指引裡面提醒大家要注意所以我們現在醫界聯盟我們很多公衛的專家也開始在提醒我們要注意PM0.1"},{"start":11829.528,"end":11857.868,"text":"那我要講說PM0.1目前所看到的研究裡面大概指出最主要的來源是在道路環忙的交通的排放這是其一另外工業的排放還有剛剛您關心的就是電力業的部分也是來源之一所以這個部分我們一併把它納入這個數據的收集之後我們找出排放的來源才能夠擬出管制的對策那我們這個部分一定會跟歐盟接軌"},{"start":11858.989,"end":11874.877,"text":"我也很關心這個部分那至於台中電廠我們如果針對台中火力發電廠過去其實也是沒有人在測PM0.1嘛過去都只有做PM2.5那現在因為PM0.1是我們的重點了所以我們也會要求現在的監測"},{"start":11876.218,"end":11888.557,"text":"因為他剛剛有講到電力業是主要來源之一所以當然我們會請台電這邊自己也要做這樣的一個自主的一個監測那我們這邊也會啟動相關的跟台東市政府一起來努力"},{"start":11889.295,"end":11895.759,"text":"好我們希望是你說的對做的對啦 不能說什麼歐盟在做我們就等歐盟 我們是台灣啦 我們就是要以我們台灣來去就是要怎麼樣去設 或怎麼樣去做 才能達到這個效果最後我想要請教一下就是針對因為我們現在已經在夏天了 所以剛才也就說是不是改成就是燃氣的發電 我們夏天燃"},{"start":11917.353,"end":11920.917,"text":"燃煤的基礎火力全開的狀況就像剛才你說的這個環境這邊的話就會變成是更空氣更汙染所以我們環境部有沒有和經濟部台電去協調過還是說優先用"},{"start":11935.093,"end":11938.316,"text":"我們的燃氣機組就就鮮少這樣子的一個空污這個部分有沒有記錄有沒有協調的記錄或者是會議的記錄是不是說代表我們的能源都是那個條度根本有沒有納入我們的空污的考量"},{"start":11954.128,"end":11959.472,"text":"這個部分我們都要想要知道 不可以說就算別人怎麼樣怎麼樣我們就是要你怎麼樣怎麼樣 我們才會知道結果所以我們希望就是說這個有沒有考慮到的空乎的考量 還有我們看到的這些就是"},{"start":11972.961,"end":11978.125,"text":"黑煙他也看不到這是入門的廢炮甚至是入門的血液因為他這是很微小的所以我們不能再就是說研議再討論或者是別人在做我們要的是你在做所以我們希望說你要把這個排放清單要有沒有見不要讓我們台中的民眾就是"},{"start":12000.014,"end":12006.555,"text":"說沒人聽話也沒人唱所以請你明確交代就是說我們的環境部在PM0.1的作為能不能在這些東西就是在空氣裡面不能讓這些污染自由放任你做得到嗎你做要怎麼做就是要規劃"},{"start":12025.319,"end":12039.633,"text":"不要說別人 我需要的是你有沒有明確的是 我們PM0.1就是先監測 找來源 定策略我們會這樣來管制 好 謝謝好 所以教育生的排放清單還有數據 這個部分可以給我們嗎"},{"start":12045.263,"end":12053.772,"text":"一個禮拜現在都還沒有監測怎麼會有清單呢你可以這樣說你的排測的清單就表示說你有這樣子的PM0.1你剛才不是有說嗎我們高雄哪裡哪裡我們台中也有啊你不是說有嗎有的話你就是要去用嘛台灣還沒有建置PM0.1的監測站"},{"start":12068.766,"end":12073.07,"text":"剛才有說有喔我們有幾個站他說有幾個站喔我們召委你沒錄製你沒遞的他說有不是我說的他說的我們有台大在那個"},{"start":12083.737,"end":12108.695,"text":"基隆路三段跟長興街口 台大航空所裡面有設一個站那是一個委託研究計畫進行的那個是委託研究計畫對 所以我們有一些研究的數據好 那就提供給萬一委員你如果要的東西可以提供給你好 來 我再問一題因為介紹我要問的是我已經多給你五分鐘了 好不好但是那個零熟分半個小時都可以我再多五分鐘而已誰半個小時都可以"},{"start":12109.275,"end":12126.006,"text":"林淑芬每期質詢在她的後面,我都等很久了你如果大家都要半小時,你也擺不定,你現在也沒時間做工委,我時間夠了好不好你敢高鐵,當我們在後面也是敢高鐵啊,我們也是在後面在演啊私底下可以問啦好不好,私底下可以再問我就是還沒有問好,再問嘛我已經多給你五分鐘了好不好,謝謝,麻煩你再給我一分鐘不好意思,因為阿表人家在等,人家也要工委發給人的時間的問題嘛好不好,嘿"},{"start":12138.935,"end":12147.021,"text":"趙薇 不可以大聲你每次來我都會給你多一點時間你不要多大聲我來的時候我老公是比較小聲的我老公是小聲的你不要這樣跟我說好不好我今天給你五分鐘你說我老公大聲不要這樣同事間不需要這樣時間到我就該換別人時間到我就說再給我再提你給我一分鐘我就多給你多一分鐘五分鐘是前面的後面再多一分鐘我為什麼要在後面多給你一分鐘後面有委員的行程嘛"},{"start":12168.277,"end":12184.794,"text":"每一個人都有行程,但是我每次跟您...請下去好不好,請下去來請下去來,謝謝我已經給你五分多鐘了,其實再講下去已經六分多鐘了你時間到47分21秒,現在是11點50分我怎麼沒有話跟你講沒關係啊,不然你繼續講啊"},{"start":12191.394,"end":12216.691,"text":"我尊重你,也希望你尊重我,好不好我當主席沒有再跟委員有任何的衝突啦,好不好時間到就請下去,我已經多給你,現在多了七分鐘了你一直講怎麼是多給一分鐘啊你都沒講你都沒講好啦,時間趕,好不好,嘿,來給我一分鐘,可以嗎主席"},{"start":12221.867,"end":12238.571,"text":"好,我想要問的就是說,我們環境部沒辦法做到,我們的衛福部衛福部有沒有辦法做到?因為現在我們的PM0.1特別就是應付"},{"start":12239.11,"end":12258.814,"text":"我們的胎兒還有長輩我們都要有特式的口罩嗎來戴嗎還是在家裡像我們台中都戴著口罩在家裡嗎所以我們是害怕這些會危害我們讓我們怕了就是因為這個PM0.1會導致中風四肢腦癌還有瘡"},{"start":12266.263,"end":12276.982,"text":"在穿透我們的胎盤影響我們的健康所以我們希望我們盤進部衛福部共同來去把這件事情去"},{"start":12280.234,"end":12302.954,"text":"我們比較希望這樣而已好 謝謝委員那個今天昭緯安排這個專報也就是因為PM0.1太微細了戴口罩是沒有辦法過濾掉的他會進到我們人體影響健康所以昭緯才安排這個專案報告所以我想這個我們會跟衛福部不只衛福部跟今天在座所有相關部會我們都會一起來努力交通部交易部等等大家一起來所以我們要的就是你答應這樣跟我們人民答應而已所以謝謝昭緯"},{"start":12308.318,"end":12314.34,"text":"好 謝謝蔓園 謝謝次長接下來請核心組委員 核心組委員 核心組委員不在請陳委員來做詢問好啦 那個我今天質詢不會太長然後也謝謝昭緯其實對不是本委員會的委員也相當的優待了這個也請前面委員要理解"},{"start":12338.117,"end":12345.509,"text":"好 那個請那個等一下齁這沒關係啦 那個我們請那個次長來 陳次這個不要問了對委員好"},{"start":12352.025,"end":12375.705,"text":"好 次長好 今天我們討論這個因應歐盟管制PM1的這個議題那首先我想要釐清問題的本質在你們新發布的白皮書第63頁有指出在推動AI與感測科技建構全方位監控體系那加強這個PM1就是細懸浮為例的這個污染掌握"},{"start":12377.062,"end":12404.899,"text":"那對於這個彭部長跟這個環境部的這個專業跟承擔我想在這裡本席是非常的期待但是呢部長也有講到就是說問題的本質是在於很難精準量測那需要引進國際新的這個監測技術跟儀器還有這個監測人力的培養所以我們在環境部是不是已經有能力來監測PM1了呢"},{"start":12408.524,"end":12434.738,"text":"PM1可以啦 PM1可以監測那這個就但目前我們法規有沒有PM1的這個標準目前PM1的部分還沒有法規我想這個也是跟美國歐洲歐美大概都是一樣的接軌啦這種管制標準好那PM1可以追蹤掌握它的污染源嗎"},{"start":12439.269,"end":12462.539,"text":"向委員報告那個像PM1的部分他可能他的來源也是相當複雜我們也還需要再更多資料來做分析那不外乎PM1的部分跟交通員也是有密切相關所以你的答案是現在可以追蹤掌握嗎我們目前可以來做進一步的調查你要對著麥克風聽到沒有"},{"start":12464.909,"end":12481.776,"text":"我們可以做進一步的調查跟蒐集資料那PM1的部分最主要還是來自於光化學反應還有是交通源的排放等等這個是我們現階段所理解的如果要建構到像PM2.5這樣的一個來源我們可能還需要更多的資料跟時間"},{"start":12482.998,"end":12497.667,"text":"所以好那所以看起來還有很多進步的空間那如果說未來事業單位排放超標的話目前看起來應該是還不能開罰吧因為管制標準還沒有定沒錯"},{"start":12498.427,"end":12523.07,"text":"好 那在這個空氣品質的監測跟這個個別污染源的監測可能是不同層次的技術那空氣品質監測是在一定時間空間的一個平均值的一個概念但是如果是事業單位或特定的污染源的話就會涉及到這個短時間高濃度的排放值那你們現在有能力去克服這個部分的技術嗎"},{"start":12527.492,"end":12557.058,"text":"向委員報告相關的空氣品質檢測或固定原源的檢測基本上都可以執行不過剛才提到那個比較小的微粒像PM1或者是PM0.1如果在煙道裡面就是所謂的個別污染源檢測來講這需要再克服因為它的濾鏡太小它的運動不像我們一般測的那種濾狀物大顆的濾狀污染物可能現階段可能都還要再再進一步的研究才可以"},{"start":12557.318,"end":12575.793,"text":"好那這樣看起來就是說當然低濃度的PM1和這個空氣品質可能就是比較難監測的那常常會測不到或測不準然後卻被認為就是零這是有可能的那超過這個設備的偵測極限就會被定義為這個non-dictative"},{"start":12580.337,"end":12608.529,"text":"所以在未來你們訂定標準如果太低以及很難監測得到那非常有可能就是通通會出現一個ND值然後大家都以為說偵測到的就是零那白話文的說法其實也就是驗不到如果這樣的標準或者數據發布這樣看起來可能也沒有什麼意義基於這些問題就是說環境部要如何來避免這樣的結果出現"},{"start":12609.892,"end":12627.24,"text":"那個檢測方法的訂定一定會根據你的偵測極限用什麼方法那極限到哪裡那你訂出那一個檢測出來數據的標準所以不可能說訂一個標準就你的偵測極限已經沒辦法偵測到那個都沒有意義了所以這個部分我們"},{"start":12628.12,"end":12656.292,"text":"我想國際管制也都是一樣他一定會訂出一個技術上可以測出來的部分那剛有講說過去對PM0.1因為太細了所以不會用質量濃度會改為用顆粒的方式那就會去算每立方公分裡面大概有多少顆那目前我們也是用這種方式在測比如說我們在那個台大文工所那一個測站在白天的時候測出來濃度就會比晚上就是說上下班尖峰時刻測出來濃度就會比"},{"start":12656.892,"end":12667.141,"text":"不是尖峰時刻但很明顯有差異所以我們就證實了說的確這個PM0.1的濃度會是移動污染源交通所造成的影響是有的"},{"start":12668.117,"end":12693.133,"text":"好謝謝次郎的說明那如果說是人為排放的這個高濃度的PM1的話那也就是說比較容易偵測的到那但是這樣採樣其實可能還是比較困難的而且還會受到其他溫度濕度還有風力風向的影響嘛那誤差範圍會很大那在你們食物上要怎麼去克服解決這樣的問題"},{"start":12695.822,"end":12723.393,"text":"像歐盟他們要求兩年之內會員國都要開始測監測站去測監測在那個儀器的監測經過校正之後然後每天都執行了這個監測出來的結果每立方公分有多少顆數那個結果都可以當作是我們監測的結果那至於固定汙染源或者是其他的排放點所排放出來的那另外還要有監測的方法然後訂出管制標準那個都是後續會去做的事情"},{"start":12724.192,"end":12742.708,"text":"好 所以我們還是要循序漸進對 我們先去了解現在大氣中的一個監測的結果然後去找出可能的來源然後開始就會訂管制標準好 那你們目前掌握的這個歐盟的管制措施大概有哪些"},{"start":12744.451,"end":12758.487,"text":"那也是根據一些研究報告所呈現的大家知道說這個對人體健康是會是會有影響的啦齁那譬如說我們過去可能比較重視的是排氣直接排出來了那現在不是排氣這"},{"start":12760.069,"end":12775.455,"text":"包括煞車的時候那一個煞車皮或者是輪胎在路上磨的那個都會揚起那個粉塵的部分那個都是來源所以那個部分我們也都會把它納入我們的空瓶排皮書裡面在未來的十年裡面這個都是我們的重點"},{"start":12776.275,"end":12797.231,"text":"所以我們未來也台灣也會有能力去比較辦理是那現在現在的新車現在就沒辦法沒有就是跟歐盟一樣啊他們現在也沒有說有管制標準可以提供給各國來參考那我們最後我先請教就是說以pm2.5來講我們有沒有辦法收集處理"},{"start":12800.086,"end":12812.738,"text":"我們PM2.5已經從105年到現在降從20降到現在的12.8去年所以這個各縣市都在往下降你說下降但我講的是收集處理"},{"start":12816.086,"end":12838.759,"text":"測當然就是測出他最後排放出來他為什麼排放出來會下降當然就是因為被我們空氣污染防治設備所收集了那實務上我們回到這個PM1的這個污染控制那實務上這個PM1有沒有辦法收集處理業界有沒有能力去做這個污染防治"},{"start":12843.294,"end":12867.816,"text":"像委員報告就是有關如果PM1它是原生性就直接排放的話目前還是有機會用過濾的方式或是用靜電集成的方式來做處理所以我們會不會就是說未來標準定下去然後會不會就影響到產業的競爭力我不知道你們的次長這個就誠如剛才次長說明的所以我們需要更多的資料來做研議"},{"start":12869.523,"end":12882.249,"text":"所以我想這個聽起來目前大家資訊其實都不是很足夠的前提之下所以我覺得可能在未來我們如果要開始訂定這個標準的時候可能也"},{"start":12885.851,"end":12904.441,"text":"要很谨慎因为这个定下去有没有能力去做这个我说业界有没有去有没有能力去做这个污染防治然后会不会整个这个产业的这个竞争力被影响到我想在我们定力的时候都要非常非常的谨慎小心"},{"start":12904.761,"end":12925.226,"text":"是我們任何管制標準都是會有一定的程序學者專家研議然後跟國際的法規接軌然後業界這邊改進的技術是不是到位這個都會把它考量進來還有鄰近國家的情況我想本席認為就是說雖然歐盟已經開始要管制那環境部"},{"start":12926.546,"end":12949.297,"text":"開始監測那個環境部呢也已經都重視到這個議題的嚴重性但是我們還是要考慮就是說這個產業界的是不是有能力來因應所以剛剛也特別強調說在這個偵測技術人才都還可能有待加強的這個背景之下我們這個貿然定下一個"},{"start":12950.277,"end":12976.997,"text":"測不到或測不準的一個環境品質標準或者是事業單位的這個排放標準都我們真的要非常謹慎絕對不能說我們要貪圖這個速度去定一個做不到甚至是全世界最嚴格的標準我想這樣子對民眾或者是事業單位不僅是沒有好處可能是必大於利而且我們也還不知道就是說到底環境部最後會定什麼樣的標準"},{"start":12977.958,"end":12998.679,"text":"是兩種都訂呢還是先訂某一種我想這個影響都是很大的那希望就是說環境部能夠慎重考慮本席所提出的建議那最後就是說我有在網路查詢到一些相關的資料就看到"},{"start":12999.58,"end":13012.243,"text":"有網友的留言分享給大家啦就是說環境部的總統政策跟評論燈紅酒綠不代我啦 地球暖化全怪我我想這個一併給大家參考 謝謝好 謝謝陳銀委員謝謝市長你們沒人要起來 我們就先"},{"start":13028.819,"end":13050.831,"text":"先諮詢?先諮詢?好不好?你們先處理嗎?還有議案啦,還有議案,所以等一下好,我們下一位麻煩楊耀委員諮詢"},{"start":13055.595,"end":13073.05,"text":"好謝謝主席主席請一下市長好市長好委員好市長好市長我們今天討論一個比較新的題目那我還是要先先肯定一下"},{"start":13074.982,"end":13088.929,"text":"執政團隊因為我根據也是你們來的資料就是台灣空氣中的PM2.5的濃度在過去10年有顯著的下降我不知道你們這邊有沒有數據有那次長在這邊稍微報告一下"},{"start":13097.113,"end":13113.485,"text":"沒有 這個就是有的時候還是必須要宣導一下因為恐怖確實是伴隨著生活帶來很大的恐懼那過去我們比較關心的是PM2.5的部分"},{"start":13114.326,"end":13132.112,"text":"那從102年開始其實不管馬總統時代或者是小英總統時代其實大家都努力了在全國各縣市的環保專會或者是各事業的自己的檢如檢排還有全民的努力之下PM2.5從102年的24"},{"start":13135.453,"end":13161.993,"text":"到了去年113年已經降到12.8%這個減幅是相當的大減幅將近百分之五十分這個超過改善百分之八十八百分之八十八所以我想這個努力是大家全民的一個結果因為現在大家比較關心除了2.5之外更細的PM1甚至今天的議題超細閒文維蒂PM0.1還有今天的專報"},{"start":13164.915,"end":13170.538,"text":"科技越來越發達所以對於生活中的有害物質的發現就會越來越多"},{"start":13176.158,"end":13203.258,"text":"因為現在世衛組織跟歐盟對於PM0.1對人體造成的健康風險提出了高度的關注跟警告大概認為PM0.1對於心血管、肺部、腦部都可能帶來疾病世衛組織也將PM0.1定為一級的致癌物"},{"start":13204.759,"end":13218.446,"text":"危害更甚於PM2.5那我想要請問一下市長你們對於PM0.1的減排方向的偵測方向你大概講一下"},{"start":13219.506,"end":13245.618,"text":"我簡單說明一下就是PM0.1因為它細太小了所以我們人體的防禦沒有辦法去抵禦的情況之下我們戴口罩也沒有辦法保護自己戴口罩也沒有辦法氣管也沒有辦法把它排除掉進到肺部甚至進到血液裡面戴口罩也沒有辦法沒有辦法太細了像這個就必須要讓國人很清楚所以我們要去關心這個東西所以現在就是說"},{"start":13247.29,"end":13265.569,"text":"世界衛生組織開始提醒了然後歐盟也注意到了要開始做監測以前都沒有去測這個東西現在開始要測所以測了之後你才能夠知道它主要會從哪些來源來因為現在有人開始測這個之後發現說它跟這個交通的那個密集"},{"start":13267.163,"end":13294.669,"text":"經過的車輛是有關的所以我們大概可以比較確定就是說它跟交通來源是有相關性所以我們要去管制移動污染源的原因也在這個地方那另外有一些工廠的排放等等也是可能會造成的原因那我們現在就是要因為數量還不是足夠讓我們可以確認所以我們先把它做監測之後因為歐盟也是去年才開始要會員國兩年之內要設監測站也就是明年底"},{"start":13295.589,"end":13312.158,"text":"要完成監測那我們現在開始有實驗性的監測在進行了那監測出來這些數據都會提供給我們做參考將來我們會參考歐盟參考這個先進國家他們的管制策略然後看看我們的本土的情況是怎麼樣然後我們來採取對策"},{"start":13314.512,"end":13342.612,"text":"那我們因為它是新的東西所以我們的空氣品質監測站會不會逐步更新配合BM0.1因為我們現在的空品監測站有78個環波數是現在環境部中央設的有78個監測站其中有6個是跟交通有關地方也有34個測站地方也有在測"},{"start":13344.594,"end":13366.392,"text":"交通的部分 像臺北市的車站有三個在測這個交通車站那可是這個過去也都是在測PM2.5綠中暖物 氮氧化物等等的PM0.1也不是他們的重點 那種人沒有注意到這麼細小的東西我現在問的就是 有沒有逐步跟所以現在開始有試驗性的車站出來了"},{"start":13367.353,"end":13391.667,"text":"我們在這個台北有一個站就是台大防空所有台大防空所的教授協助我們做這樣的一個試驗計畫從102年開始到現在持續在進行當中一直在收集這個資料那慢慢的我們也在高雄有設了我們在台中也設了北中南各有像可以對比去了解成因是什麼找出成因之後然後才能夠提出解決的對策"},{"start":13392.988,"end":13415.734,"text":"過往因為它太新的東西啦是是是因為以前都忽略了沒有注意到那現在開始提醒我們要注意這個那這邊也提醒一下次長就是監測站逐步更新甚至於假如說它目前的資料照次長講的就是可能是來自移動污染源"},{"start":13417.418,"end":13422.794,"text":"產生PM0.1的情況比較多那有沒有要增加"},{"start":13424.88,"end":13448.877,"text":"監測站然後人力的培訓你們這邊目前可能也...是 謝委員你講到的是重點不是說想要設就設要擺的地點要適當然後也要有足夠的人力去維護等等這個都要支援那在預算不足的情況之下可能預算都撥到地方去地方也要加強設所以這個都必須要大家一起來努力"},{"start":13450.018,"end":13473.432,"text":"所以我想這個我們會目前既有的車站怎麼樣去做轉型或調整來因應這個新興的這樣的PM0.1對那就是像次郎講的除了部裡面自己的檢測站以外有很多是地方的那其實很多工作本來就是中央跟地方必須要協力來完成的"},{"start":13475.973,"end":13503.384,"text":"因為PM0.1根據研究顯示確實對人類對人體有很多的危害包括世衛組織都沒有辦法精確的掌握到說PM0.1的濃度到底到達多少的時候會造成多大程度的健康風險危害所以"},{"start":13505.351,"end":13527.249,"text":"環境部這邊會不會跟衛福部或相關單位來分析研究當然隨時加入國際的數據來分析PM0.1所帶來的健康風險評估或者是最慢疫什麼時候會啟動相類似的計畫"},{"start":13531.503,"end":13548.036,"text":"我們跟衛福部會有一個所謂的雙次長會議有兩個次長然後跟學者專家一起啟動這樣的機制我們是希望能夠在下個月就開始那這個很重要就是說我們開始要去跨部會的去重視這個議題"},{"start":13549.637,"end":13569.657,"text":"然後我們現在就是把公衛專家都把他找進來之後就是跟健康的連結那這裡面PM0.1會是其中的一個議題是這樣子就是因為我們有研究成果的資料基礎才能夠有科學的依據那在法律的制定跟政策的制定"},{"start":13570.814,"end":13591.659,"text":"安全值的制定上才會有依據國人也才比較能健康可以獲得確保相對式的問題因為這是一個很新的議題所以請環境部這邊還是必須要加快腳步跟世界"},{"start":13592.419,"end":13606.744,"text":"相關組織接軌我們有自己的進度假如說國際有新的資料出來我們可以接近的也必須要一併做處理好不好好 謝謝委員的提出 謝謝主席"},{"start":13609.065,"end":13625.877,"text":"謝謝楊耀委員精闢的發言也謝謝次長的答詢本日會議詢答全部結束委員廖偉祥、蘇清泉所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在處理臨時提案既有兩案請一併宣讀"},{"start":13627.028,"end":13645.813,"text":"地案為維護國土生態安全與居民環境品質原要求環境部重新研議並加嚴光電設置之環評標準因移除國有土地公營或國營事業土地得免環評之除外條款並檢討山坡地面積門檻與審查範圍確保未來大規模光電開發在推動能源轉型之餘不再以破壞台灣最引以為傲的美麗環境"},{"start":13656.417,"end":13671.415,"text":"與大自然為代價提案人委員陳金輝、陳昭芝、邱振軍第二案台灣交通策戰自82幾年起至今都維持六站然而全國機動車輛登記已在今年五月達到2335萬輛"},{"start":13674.238,"end":13699.553,"text":"因此交通策戰的建制也需重新盤點依照現今車輛數進行更精準的建制與監測要求環境部一個月內針對PM0.1研議納入法規及管理提出具體規劃並就交通策戰增加站點提出具體報告提案人委員劉建國連署人委員王振旭楊耀宣讀完畢"},{"start":13700.438,"end":13726.503,"text":"好 那請問第一案行政組單位也無意見建議文職修正倒數第三行第二句因移除國有土地等等等移除兩個字建議改成研擬加研謝謝 謝謝環境部的配合OK 所以請問我希望就是如果可以在一個月兩個月內可以看到你們預計加研的這個想法然後從哪邊去調整"},{"start":13729.576,"end":13736.053,"text":"對OK好謝謝對謝謝好那就以這個剛剛所提的修正後通過"},{"start":13737.791,"end":13758.669,"text":"請問第二案 行政單位有意見報告 委員這邊好在那個評論 納入第二段第二段的第一行 納入法規這邊加入監測兩個字我覺得目前還是以監測先行所以監測法規面還是以監測為主那這個跟委員辦公室這邊有溝通過"},{"start":13760.307,"end":13788.878,"text":"那請問是要修正成為再確認一次就是前面都沒變PM0.1研議納入監測法規後面的其他都沒有改就增加監測兩個字因為這個目前都還沒有還不知道怎麼管所以監測先做做了以後呢要怎麼管我們再來想辦法所以同意那就依照修正後通過"},{"start":13792.13,"end":13816.924,"text":"臨時提案全部處理結束現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束星期四早上九時繼續開會現在休息"},{"start":13834.722,"end":13835.022,"text":"對不起啦"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}