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謝謝主席 有請NCC陳主委好 我們請陳主委"},{"start":14.834,"end":34.386,"text":"陳主任好上個月我們看到這個新聞我心裡有無限的感慨法院打臉NCC因為你知道嗎在我看起來法院跟NCC都是我們打詐國家隊最重要的成員感覺我們打詐國家隊互相在對打"},{"start":35.186,"end":55.916,"text":"那這種偽造的基地台 蓋台 放這種詐騙訊息相對於我們這種打詐不管你用任何一個手段 你行使詐騙的一個目的是全民大家是非常唾棄的那你們對於這樣的一個結果當然最高行政法院做出來這樣的一個判決這個詐團 然後"},{"start":60.338,"end":82.711,"text":"這個400萬的一個裁罰 也不用講了不要講了主要是因為他們認為說有刑事的嘛這個詐騙行為那一個行為不兩罰 這樣的概念那請問一下 對你們來說這是你們預料中的事有預判到的 這個結果是你預判到的還是你們也不理解"},{"start":84.072,"end":111.705,"text":"根本的報告我們在內部當初在開這個處分的時候其實我們有討論過我們認為是兩個行為法院認為是同一行為才會造成這個結果我們認為是他先違法使用這個頻密然後再來去發這個調離簡訊等等是兩個行為前面那個行為NC應該可以處理法院認為他是同一體的是同一個行為所以他同一個行為的話就變成說刑事願意行政法"},{"start":113.012,"end":130.008,"text":"好那針對於這個案子呢24位民眾報案預估財損250萬當然肯定有黑數嘛因為我知道類似這樣的一個詐騙他每一個每一個詐騙案他可能騙的錢稍微少一點但在整個的一個這樣的一個概念我覺得"},{"start":131.417,"end":145.991,"text":"由警政單位去查獲這個基地台對不對然後移送給你主管單位那以後啊我擔心一件事第一個你們變武功被廢掉了對不對一步移送給你好那就行事啊因為你們也"},{"start":146.872,"end":165.561,"text":"牙齒被拔光了 移送給你幹嘛移送給你幹嘛 變成證人嘛去法院一起用你的法律作證而已啊就變成警方直接另外一個就是詐騙相關的法律 還移送法辦嘛就沒有你的角色了啦你的行政裁罰 按照你們的這個電信相關的一些"},{"start":166.221,"end":188.541,"text":"跟無線電相關的使用管理辦法你們做的一些裁罰就變沒有用了所以這件事情憑良講對於很多民眾來講對這種結果是覺得非常嘩然第二個呢對於很多的法律的見解也是有很多的一個爭議當然有人認為說它就是一個行為就是不能兩罰"},{"start":189.562,"end":212.162,"text":"那有人說這個中間涉及到有可能幾萬人被蓋台蓋掉啊他不一定每個都有詐騙那可能是兩個行為那包括也有人說你如果無照、酒駕、未戴安全帽如果出車禍到最後的行為是罰單也照開然後法院你可能還是被判刑這有實力的"},{"start":212.862,"end":237.962,"text":"所以我覺得我想請教一下對這樣的一個情況你有沒有盤點你知道這個危機在哪裡就是以後啊類似像這種詐騙團體看到你有點跟紙老虎一樣這個我覺得是一個危機第二個在之前類似的你有行政裁罰同一時間也被判刑的你有沒有去盤點可能符合這類似的"},{"start":239.423,"end":256.154,"text":"一個行為如果只要他申請說我也上行政法院有沒有類似的案件你有沒有盤點過根本報告兩點第一點我們確實是有盤點那先前相關的案件其實目前大致都還好還沒有要動情況"},{"start":256.954,"end":278.716,"text":"原因是因為每個個案其實他的細節部分其實都會有一些落差那個別法官因為都獨立行使這邊我們都尊重司法院跟司法官因為司法院本身也有發訊息稿那這邊我們是尊重他們那NC這邊是就我們資產部分我們認為說行政法可以處理的部分我們都會積極去處理"},{"start":280.237,"end":307.716,"text":"所以你們的見解你們的認定啊我是覺得你們在法律意見的一個表達或者律師的一個聘請的過程中因為在你剛剛講嘛不同的案子搞不好有類似的非常類似的但是有法官的見解喔抱歉他就有兩個行為為什麼因為我們打詐國家對嘛我們就想辦法應該現在反正都法官對於很多的行為他就把它拆成20個案子把你罰到痛也有這樣的也有把它整包就是一個連續性的"},{"start":308.897,"end":326.848,"text":"我是覺得對於打詐是全民的共識而且行政院包括總統已經宣布這麼多次了打詐國家隊你不用最嚴的去對於這種意圖詐騙的行為人還有這樣的去做一個讓他有利的我個人是覺得非常非常的"},{"start":327.868,"end":342.369,"text":"難以理解那第二個是就113年114年這個危機地台的詐騙案我們看到在法律審理中這個詐騙人還很生氣很生氣啊他說你NCC為什麼不認真去查這種"},{"start":343.931,"end":357.809,"text":"這個電信詐騙害他以為可以騙啦那種感覺你知道嗎我嚇一跳他感覺是到處都是那他從 為什麼從哪裡回到台中台中去領機器台中哪裡有這麼多機器他不說嘛"},{"start":358.63,"end":382.776,"text":"可是這會不會是一個早就已經隱藏在各地各地的事情現在破案它還有很多的黑數所以我們看過去兩年來看查扣12組的設備總共接獲140個人報案也逮獲了11名的嫌犯所以如果不同案我覺得我不再重複了你好好去盤點"},{"start":384.476,"end":412.548,"text":"那些人如果看到他也被罰一兩百萬三百萬的時候現在搞不好他也要去把他的罰單去撤銷未來你的真的你的牙齒都掉光了我覺得這樣子是蠻麻煩的最後一個憂心事實上行政裁罰它有它的效率對這種詐騙不對的行為你兩件事情第一個你要告訴有正義感的我們所有的國民"},{"start":413.488,"end":431.167,"text":"國家最快速度去處理這個詐騙不要讓 老是讓大家有這個印象說台灣詐騙王國 你看大家用青菜四百萬罰單又沒事了所以行政財閥再怎麼樣可以跑得比法律整個 因為它還可以上訴嘛你要知道你們111年111年11月的案子 這個案子啊"},{"start":436.328,"end":441.374,"text":"法院終於判決了判決結束了因為他的權利上訴是114年的9月"},{"start":445.465,"end":468.821,"text":"將近三年的時間 你知道 人民都忘光了大家都記憶你們什麼也沒做只被發四百萬又撤銷這是民眾的感受 你知道嗎所以我覺得很可惜 這我不是怪你因為法院這樣的判 那個效應啊是你當時立竿見影的四百萬在幾個月就出來 能夠遏止這詐騙不要再想了 這是會"},{"start":469.982,"end":484.492,"text":"雙重損失了可是這個東西變這樣所以我是覺得像這樣的一個立竿見影的效應也沒有的你們未來是碰到這種事情就不裁罰了沒有 我們都會持續處理大概跟委員普通報告那案子已經不只12件 已經有13件"},{"start":485.453,"end":502.927,"text":"然後在我們也在預防上其實在手機端我們也在處理110年9月以後的認證的手機大概都是出廠D4就是OFF所以就偽基站偽基站都是偽2G基站到時候新的手機大概都不會受害大致是這樣子"},{"start":504.765,"end":530.096,"text":"我覺得我的建議第一個就是說你們提升決策的品質就是說你們在做一個裁罰400萬這件事情上面你們覺得因為最後被法院撤銷這件事情上面來來回回是非對錯啦但是對於那我們就在這個案子上面我們就輸了嘛那在於這種我們決策的品質甚至法律的判讀方面我覺得要更堅實一點"},{"start":531.557,"end":550.416,"text":"那執行面你剛剛說了對於這種危機戰或者類似的詐騙電信詐騙你剛剛你的簡報也有說要加強公私協力來做一個處理那最後一個防治面這種危機戰他在台中哪裡去領我就請問一下海關因為你們都是打詐國家隊那顯然在台灣某處"},{"start":554.72,"end":568.099,"text":"還有不少這樣的一個設備那請問一下他就這樣進進出出的源頭也沒人管理只是要人有這個心只要有人賊心就有這個物品在那邊逮他這個很奇怪源頭管理完全做不到嗎"},{"start":569.264,"end":593.353,"text":"原動管理可不可以做到原動管理海關那邊如果有發現他也會主動移送因為我們都有跟海關密切合作告訴他哪一類偽機站或是射頻器材不應該要進口除非有認證的這邊他們都有來協力配合那另外形式確定之後我們該有的行政法也會後續再追加上去"},{"start":594.153,"end":611.1,"text":"但是這海關守得沒有很好喔不管是拆解進來或者任何的因素反而沒有守得很好但是你們就是尾端啊尾端在那邊後續在那邊處理警政單位在低線在抓來抓去啦我倒是覺得源頭管理非常非常重要就像"},{"start":612.06,"end":637.473,"text":"昨天今天最夯的新聞嘛這個一個小吃店啦小吃店他可能用意是說大家趕快來把飯吃一吃麵吃一吃啦盡量不要看手機我的翻桌率比較高原本這個起心動念嘛結果就被別人發覺他有自己裝未申請的一個遮蔽器那一進去包括走廊都沒有訊號那就違法違規那我們大概罰20萬嘛20萬"},{"start":641.255,"end":660.371,"text":"那這個事情我想請教諸位你覺得這是個案還是在台灣已經有很多人機構早就有裝沒有申請裝這樣的一個產品你覺得沒有這個我覺得這是你是主管機關因為你的政策決定你現在的判斷"},{"start":661.152,"end":682.268,"text":"你覺得沒事全國就一台抓到了結束你回家這件事情你就睡覺了請問一下這種的情況你就你們那個專業判斷是普及度大概是狀況如何數量上我真的當然沒有辦法說但是我覺得應該是存在這種情況就是說在源頭端剛剛回到剛剛委員所提到"},{"start":682.668,"end":708.488,"text":"海關那邊我們都有跟他協議說這類的遮斷器都是違法的攝影器材我們都不會核准除非是特別的我們會經過使用計畫來核准像一些監獄、看守所或者是特殊的地方他會來跟一些合法申請的那才有或是CI設施要防止無人機進出那邊會有合法申請的至於民家那邊一般是都不會准的好 那請問一下現在跟你合法申請的個人"},{"start":709.588,"end":734.639,"text":"跟法人有多少我們會後提供給委員好不好所以不知道你們發生這個事情知道大概多少家合法的報告委員我手邊一時沒有資料但是大部分都是監獄跟考場以及一些公務機關因為公共利益而需要設置的地點好了我們中央政府各機關有沒有申請還是沒有申請的這種設備器主要是CI設施的像機場那些可能會有"},{"start":736.613,"end":759.455,"text":"最後我想跟你說啦現在我們說真的我覺得源頭剛講說源頭如果沒人把關的話就我們真的國民啊他也是無所適從啊之前在處理這個排氣管機車換排氣管我到全國連鎖店最棒一流的買到的合法錢也付了很貴一裝上去監理站違法"},{"start":760.427,"end":777.589,"text":"排氣不合格那源頭沒人管理不過好不容易這幾年終於有些管理方法那這個事情也一樣請問一下買的人 使用的人我們開拔賣的人賺的人賣的人賺的人發生什麼事其實賣的人賺的人更好找"},{"start":778.53,"end":793.219,"text":"在哪裡 現在遍地開花了嘛不是 你們自己去上網嘛個人報 這邊我們也有協力因為免電商是數位部在管我們以前都是NC自己主動免電商來處理我超過太多了"},{"start":794.259,"end":807.693,"text":"這是騙地開花你知道嗎那民眾上網也沒跟他講他就買了嘛他以為就像一個滑鼠一樣很多人真的是這樣嘛他就買了買完之後就違法就20萬起跳當然你要宣導可是對於這種賣家"},{"start":809.275,"end":827.898,"text":"對於這樣的一個部分我們的數位部可以在AFP只要一個訊息就讓他終止像這樣的在台灣違法的一個事情我覺得該終止 該提醒就要去跟數位部要去在源頭去處理朝這個方向去努力好不好我們會持續再加強力道沒有 我看蝦餅後面還字太小了還桃園領貨"},{"start":829.858,"end":854.735,"text":"好遠送貨啊我的天啊不是啊 你們自己去查一下啦好不好你不要說要四處買得到讓大家覺得好像買一包麵一樣然後一買一回來就要罰20萬到100萬我覺得在源頭就要管制對 我們同仁也有在電商平台那邊去詢問我啦也有跟平台也有電商平台跟他講說哪些器材是禁止的要有刑事認證的否則都禁止賣下去就拖來賣好 謝謝主持人謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:54:35.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:54:37.461000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請NCC陳主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-25T10:54:37.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:54:38.243000+08:00","text":"好，請陳主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:54:44.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:54:45.054000+08:00","text":"陳主委好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:54:46.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:54:54.980000+08:00","text":"上個月我們看到這個新聞──法院打臉NCC，我心裡有無限的感慨，因為你知道嗎？","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:54:54.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:55:19.012000+08:00","text":"在我看來法院跟NCC都是我們打詐國家隊最重要的成員，感覺我們打詐國家隊互相在對打，這種偽造的基地台蓋台放送詐騙訊息，對我們打詐來說，不管你用任何的手段，你行使詐騙的目的是全民非常唾棄的。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:55:22.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:55:41.465000+08:00","text":"當然最高行政法院做出來這樣的一個判決，這個詐團400萬的裁罰也不用繳了，主要是因為他們認為有刑事的詐騙行為一個行為不兩罰這樣的概念。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:55:42.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:55:52.691000+08:00","text":"我就請問一下，對你們來說，這是你們預料中的事，還是你們也不理解？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T10:55:54.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:56:03.917000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們內部當初在開這個處分的時候其實有討論過，我們認為是兩個行為，法院認為是同一行為，才會造成這個結果。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T10:56:04.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:56:13.721000+08:00","text":"我們認為它先違法使用頻率，然後再去發釣魚簡訊等等，是兩個行為。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T10:56:13.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:56:21.465000+08:00","text":"前面的行為NCC應該可以處理，但法院認為它是同一體的，是同一個行為，所以同一行為的話就變成是刑事優於行政罰。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:56:23.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:56:37.325000+08:00","text":"好，針對這個案子，24位民眾報案，預估財損251萬，當然肯定有黑數，因為我知道類似這樣的詐騙，每一個詐騙案可能騙的錢稍微少一點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:56:37.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:56:46.942000+08:00","text":"在整個概念上，由警政單位去查獲這個基地台，然後移送給你主管單位。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:56:47.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:56:53.189000+08:00","text":"以後我會擔心一件事，第一個是你們武功被廢掉了，對不對？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:56:53.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:56:54.230000+08:00","text":"還移不移送給你？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:56:54.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:57:00.154000+08:00","text":"好，那就走刑事，因為你們牙齒也被拔光了，移送給你幹嘛？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:57:00.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:57:27.711000+08:00","text":"變成證人嘛，去法院用你的法律作證而已啊，就變成警方直接走另外一個詐騙相關的法律，他就移送法辦嘛，就沒有你的角色了，你按照電信跟無線電相關的使用管理辦法做的一些裁罰就變沒有用了，所以這件事情憑良心講，對於很多民眾來講，這種結果是覺得非常譁然。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:57:28.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:57:49.110000+08:00","text":"第二個，對於很多的法律見解也是有很多的爭議，當然有人認為它就是一個行為，就是不能兩罰，有人說這中間涉及到有可能幾萬人被蓋台蓋掉，它不一定每個都有詐騙，可能是兩個行為。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:57:49.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:58:02.142000+08:00","text":"也有人說，你如果無照、酒駕、未戴安全帽，出車禍，到最後是罰單也照開，然後你可能還是被法院判刑，這是有實例的。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:58:02.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:58:07.806000+08:00","text":"所以我想請教一下，對這樣的一個情況，你有沒有盤點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:58:07.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:58:10.188000+08:00","text":"你知道這個危機在哪裡嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:58:10.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:58:18.194000+08:00","text":"就是以後類似像這種詐騙團體，看到你有點像紙老虎一樣，這個我覺得是一個危機。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:58:18.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:58:30.103000+08:00","text":"第二，像之前類似的，被行政裁罰，同一時間也被判刑的，你有沒有去盤點可能符合這種情形的類似行為？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:58:30.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:58:35.967000+08:00","text":"如果他說我也上行政法院……有沒有類似的案件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:58:36.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:58:38.309000+08:00","text":"你有沒有盤點過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T10:58:38.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:59:02.429000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告兩點，第一點我們確實是有盤點先前相關的案件，目前大致都還好，還沒有遇到這種情況，因為其實每個個案的細節都會有一些落差，個別法官因為都獨立行使職權，這邊我們都尊重司法院跟司法官，因為司法院本身也有發新聞稿，這邊我們是尊重他們。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T10:59:02.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:59:08.696000+08:00","text":"NCC這邊是就我們職掌的部分、我們認為行政罰可以處理的部分，都會積極去處理。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:59:10.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:59:25.668000+08:00","text":"所以這是你們的見解、你們的認定，我是覺得你們在法律意見的表達，或者律師聘請的過程中……因為你剛剛講不同的案子搞不好有非常類似的，但是有法官的見解，抱歉，它就有兩個行為，為什麼？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:59:25.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:59:28.470000+08:00","text":"因為我們是打詐國家隊嘛，我們就要想辦法。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:59:29.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:59:37.696000+08:00","text":"現在應該很多法官對於很多的行為，他就把它拆成20個案子，把你罰到痛，也有這樣的，但也有把它整包處理，就是認定為連續性的。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:59:38.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T10:59:58.249000+08:00","text":"我是覺得打詐是全民的共識，而且行政院，包括總統也已經宣布這麼多次了，打詐國家隊你不用最嚴的方式去對這種意圖詐騙的行為人，還做一個對他有利的對待，我個人是覺得非常非常的難以理解。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T10:59:59.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:00:17.335000+08:00","text":"第二個，就113年至114年偽基地臺的詐騙案，我們看到在法律審理中，這個詐騙人還很生氣，他說NCC為什麼不認真去查這種電信詐騙，害他以為可以騙，那種感覺你知道嗎？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:00:17.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:00:34.031000+08:00","text":"我嚇一跳，他感覺是到處都是，他從哪裡回到臺中，臺中去領機器，臺中哪裡有這麼多機器，他不說嘛，可是這會不會是一個早就已經隱藏在各地的事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:00:34.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:00:37.232000+08:00","text":"現在破案，但它還有很多很多黑數。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:00:37.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:01:08.082000+08:00","text":"我們以過去兩年來看，查扣12組設備，總共接獲142人報案，逮獲11名嫌犯，所以如果不同案，我不再重複說了，你好好去盤點啦，那些人如果看到他也被罰一兩百萬、三百萬的時候，現在搞不好他也要去把他的罰單撤銷，未來你的牙齒真的都掉光了，我覺得這樣的事滿麻煩的。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:01:08.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:01:29.875000+08:00","text":"最後一個憂心，事實上，行政裁罰有它的效率，對於這種詐騙、不對的行為有兩件事情，第一個，你要告訴有正義感的所有國民，國家會以最快速度去處理這個詐騙，不要老是讓大家有這個印象認為臺灣是詐騙王國。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:01:29.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:01:38.605000+08:00","text":"你看，大家都很隨便，400萬罰單又沒事了，所以行政裁罰再怎麼樣也跑得比法律整個……因為他還可以上訴。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:01:39.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:01:57.467000+08:00","text":"你要知道，你們111年11月的這個案子，法院終於判決了，判決結束了，因為他有權利上訴，是114年的9月，將近3年的時間，你知道嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:01:57.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:02:05.552000+08:00","text":"人民都忘光了，大家的記憶是你們什麼也沒做，罰了400萬又被撤銷，這是民眾的感受，你知道嗎？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:02:05.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:02:29.069000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得很可惜，這我不是怪你，因為法院這樣判，那個效應是你當時立竿見影的400萬，在幾個月就出來，能夠遏止這個詐騙，不要再想了，這是會雙重損失的，可是這個東西變成這樣，我是覺得像這樣一個立竿見影的效應也沒有了，你們未來碰到這種事情是不是就不裁罰了？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T11:02:29.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:02:30.610000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們都會持續處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T11:02:31.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:02:52.907000+08:00","text":"跟委員補充報告，那個案子已經不只12件，已經有13件，然後在預防上，其實在手機端我們也在處理，110年9月1號以後認證的手機，大概都是出廠default就是off，偽基站都是偽2G基站，新的手機大概都不會受害，大致是這樣子。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲：我的建議","start":"2026-03-25T11:02:55.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:02:59.307000+08:00","text":"第一個，你們要提升決策的品質。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲：我的建議","start":"2026-03-25T11:02:59.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:03:20.096000+08:00","text":"就是說你們在做一個裁罰、在400萬這件事情上面，因為最後被法院撤銷，這件事情來來回回，是非對錯，在這個案子上面我們就輸了嘛，那在於我們決策的品質，甚至是法律的判讀方面，我覺得要更堅實一點。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲：我的建議","start":"2026-03-25T11:03:21.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:03:31.928000+08:00","text":"在執行面，你剛剛說了，對於這種偽基站或者類似的電信詐騙，剛剛你的簡報也有說要加強公私協力來處理。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲：我的建議","start":"2026-03-25T11:03:32.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:03:37.493000+08:00","text":"最後一個是防治面，這種偽基站，他在臺中哪裡去領？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲：我的建議","start":"2026-03-25T11:03:37.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:03:46.883000+08:00","text":"我就請問一下海關，因為你們都是打詐國家隊，顯然在臺灣某處還有不少這樣的設備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲：我的建議","start":"2026-03-25T11:03:47.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:03:58.099000+08:00","text":"請問一下，他就這樣進進出出的，源頭也沒有人管理，只是要有人有這個心、只要有人有賊心，就有這些物品在那邊逮他，這個很奇怪，源頭管理完全做不到嗎？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲：我的建議","start":"2026-03-25T11:03:59.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:04:00.064000+08:00","text":"源頭管理可不可以做到？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T11:04:01.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:04:17.471000+08:00","text":"源頭端、海關那邊如果有發現，他也會主動移送，因為我們跟海關那邊都有密切合作，告訴他哪一類偽基站或射頻器材不應該進口，除非有認證，這邊他們都有協力配合。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T11:04:18.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:04:23.333000+08:00","text":"另外，刑事確定之後，該有的行政罰也會後續再追加上去。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:04:24.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:04:37.618000+08:00","text":"顯然海關守得沒有很好，不管是拆解進來或者是任何的因素，反正沒有守得很好，但是你們就是尾端、後續在那邊處理，警政單位在第一線抓來抓去。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:04:38.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:05:07.453000+08:00","text":"我倒是覺得源頭管理非常非常重要，就像昨天、今天最夯的新聞，有一個小吃店可能的用意是希望大家趕快把飯吃一吃、麵吃一吃，儘量不要看手機，我的翻桌率會比較高，原本是這個起心動念，結果就被別人發覺他自己裝了未申請的一個遮蔽器，一進去包括走廊都沒有訊號，那就違法、違規了，我們大概是罰20萬。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:05:11.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:05:15.479000+08:00","text":"這個事情我想請教主委，你覺得這是個案？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:05:16.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:05:24.326000+08:00","text":"還是在臺灣已經有很多人、機構早就有裝，未申請裝這樣的一個產品？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:05:26.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:05:30.371000+08:00","text":"我覺得你是主管機關，你的政策決定你現在的判斷喔！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:05:31.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:05:36.276000+08:00","text":"你覺得沒事，認為全國只有1台，抓到了就結束，你回家，然後這件事情你就睡覺了。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:05:37.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:05:44.322000+08:00","text":"請問一下，這種情況就你們的專業判斷，普及度大概狀況如何？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T11:05:45.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:06:15.226000+08:00","text":"數量上我這邊當然沒有辦法說，但是我覺得應該是存在，這種情況就是說在源頭端，回到剛剛委員所提到的，海關那一邊我們都有跟他們協議說，這一類的遮斷器都是違法的射頻器材，我們都不會核准，除非是特別的，我們會經過使用計畫來核准，像一些監獄、看守所或者是特殊地方，有來跟NCC合法申請的那才有，或者CI設施要防止無人機進出，那邊會有合法申請的，至於民家那邊，一般都是不會准的。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:06:15.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:06:20.548000+08:00","text":"好，那請問一下，現在跟你合法申請的個人跟法人有多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T11:06:21.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:06:23.190000+08:00","text":"我們會後提供給委員好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:06:23.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:06:24.350000+08:00","text":"所以不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:06:25.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:06:28.232000+08:00","text":"發生這個事情之後大概有多少家合法的？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"蔡處長國棟","start":"2026-03-25T11:06:28.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:06:36.735000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我手邊一時沒有資料，但是大部分都是監獄跟考場，以及一些公務機關因為公共利益而需要設置的地點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:06:36.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:06:41.758000+08:00","text":"我們中央政府各機關有沒有申請還是沒有申請的這種遮蔽器？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T11:06:42.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:06:44.619000+08:00","text":"主要是CI設施，像機場那些可能會有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:06:46.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:06:58.725000+08:00","text":"最後我想跟你說，說真的，剛剛講源頭如果沒人把關的話，我們國民真的也是無所適從。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:06:59.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:07:23.304000+08:00","text":"之前在處理排氣管一事，機車要換排氣管，我到全國連鎖店，在最棒、一流的地方買到的，合法，錢也付了，很貴，結果一裝上去監理站認為違法、排氣不合格，那源頭沒人管理，好不容易這幾年終於有一些管理方法，這個事情也一樣，請問一下，買的人、使用的人我們要開罰，那賣的人、賺的人呢？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:07:24.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:07:25.346000+08:00","text":"賣的人、賺的人發生什麼事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:07:25.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:07:29.571000+08:00","text":"其實賣的人、賺的人更好找，在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:07:29.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:07:32.492000+08:00","text":"現在遍地開花了，你們自己上網去找嘛。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T11:07:34.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:07:40.497000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這邊我們也有協力，因為目前電商是數位部在管，以前都是NCC自己主動找電商來處理。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:07:40.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:07:43.199000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，我時間超過太多了。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:07:44.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:07:45.721000+08:00","text":"這個遍地開花你知道嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:07:45.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:08:13.232000+08:00","text":"民眾上網，也沒人跟他講，他就買了，他以為這就像一個滑鼠一樣，很多人真的是這樣，他就買了，買完之後就違法，然後就20萬起跳，當然你要宣導，可是對於這種賣家，對於這樣的一個部分，我們的數位部可以在FB，只要有一個訊息就讓它終止，像這樣在臺灣違法的一個事情，我覺得該終止、該提醒的就要去跟數位部，要在源頭去處理，朝這個方向去努力好不好？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T11:08:13.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:08:14.854000+08:00","text":"好，我們會持續再加強力道。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:08:15.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:08:22.960000+08:00","text":"你看簡報上的蝦皮購物，這個字太小了，還桃園領貨、桃園送貨，我的天啊！","quality":0.586},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:08:23.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:08:24.481000+08:00","text":"你們自己去查一下好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:08:25.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:08:33.587000+08:00","text":"不要四處買得到，讓大家覺得好像在買一包麵一樣，然後一買回來就要罰20萬到100萬，我覺得在源頭就要管制。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T11:08:33.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:08:44.535000+08:00","text":"對，我們同仁也有在電商平臺那邊去巡邏，也有跟電商平臺說哪些器材是禁止的，要有型式認證的，否則都禁止賣家po來賣。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"魯委員明哲","start":"2026-03-25T11:08:44.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:08:44.555000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員崇樹","start":"2026-03-25T11:08:44.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-25T11:08:44.735000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-25T11:08:45.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-25T11:08:50.092143+08:00","text":"謝謝魯明哲委員的發言，謝謝陳代理主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-25T11:08:50.392143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-25T11:08:54.106429+08:00","text":"接下來我們請徐富癸委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}