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谢谢各位党团 谢谢"},{"start":1872.146,"end":1889.716,"text":"黨團幹部請坐 特別跟台灣民眾黨團民進黨團報告一下因為總統府秘書長帶來大法官被提名現在正在拜訪國民黨黨團所以國民黨黨團的總召以及書記長正在接待由首席副書記長羅志強委員來出席所以我們這個會議就繼續進行我們把握有限的時間首先要介紹今天"},{"start":1897.2,"end":1921.583,"text":"來我們院裡面參與協商的第一位是我們司法院副理事長王副理事長熱情歡迎您第二位是我們法務部政務次長黃次長歡迎您以及各位工作夥伴謝謝跟各位黨面報告一下今天我們討論的事項第一案法院組織法的協商第二點要跟大家報告一下這個法案總共有五條昨天的黨團協商中第86條"},{"start":1922.924,"end":1929.93,"text":"第九十一條、九十三條大家比較有共識這邊我們就把條文先發下去請各黨團來參考第三點"},{"start":1933.291,"end":1957.375,"text":"我們今天就是針對還沒有達成共識的第90條以及第115條條文進行協商第4點因為我們今天下午5點鐘要處理這個條文換言之還要加上一些委員的發言時間希望今天這個朝野協商能夠掌握大家寶貴的時間達到一個有效的共識如果沒辦法達到共識的話我們還是一樣大概在"},{"start":1958.826,"end":1983.635,"text":"超越協商一個多一個小時到一個半小時之後我們就必須喊卡了我們要進到院裡面去因為很多委員都有寶貴的意見這點請各位所有與會的黨團幹部跟各位列席官員能夠了解那首先我們等一下發言的次序咧我們先請提案的台灣民眾黨團發言完畢我們請司法院法務部表達意見再請民進黨團國民黨團表達意見這樣我們比較有次序好不好首先我們請黃國昌總召請發言"},{"start":1995.581,"end":2002.651,"text":"謝謝院長 院長辛苦了召集這一次的黨團協商我想各個黨團"},{"start":2004.181,"end":2031.247,"text":"立場或許有不一致但政治上面我們還是本於最大的善意跟誠意雖然昨天我們有歷經過來依照院會交付給台灣民眾黨黨團的任務由我們來召集協商昨天下午我也舉行了協商那其實我覺得昨天下午對整個法案的討論跟進度我覺得是有"},{"start":2032.887,"end":2052.075,"text":"蠻積極正面的意義包括了說院長剛剛所提到昨天我們的整個協商有一些初步的結論那個初步的結論包括了說有三個條文我們都很尊重司法院的意見各個黨團"},{"start":2053.996,"end":2060.531,"text":"基本上最起碼在昨天也獲知了共識有三個條文那應該是"},{"start":2065.669,"end":2090.919,"text":"算是有共識啦那當然今天其他黨團會不會有其他寶貴的意見我們基本上都尊重那大家現在比較關心的聚焦的條文是第90條的規定那第90條的規定基本上我們可以把它拆解成兩個大的部分一個大的部分是法律審的處理"},{"start":2092.748,"end":2108.99,"text":"那法律省的處理呢,台灣民眾黨我們所提案的內容基本上原則上是公開型訴訟的延遲辯論及裁判宣示所謂的錄音錄影可以以適當的方式"},{"start":2111.501,"end":2139.134,"text":"來實施公開播送當然我們有但書但書我們如果涉及到國家安全公共秩序善良風俗或者是造成個人生命身體隱私或營業秘密重大損害之餘者可以裁定不予公開播送也就是在整個規範的體力上面採取的是原則上原則上公開那例外的時候不公開的方式"},{"start":2140.239,"end":2160.091,"text":"那昨天在黨團協商的時候其實我也有公開的請教我們的司法院目前我國的最高法院真的有在行言詞辯論的案子一年以去年來講大概是十件只有十個案子"},{"start":2161.298,"end":2184.193,"text":"有形公開的延遲辯論所以以雖然原則上面公開好像案件量會很大但是你實際上面的考慮我國最高法院2024年有形延遲辯論的案子只有10件那第二個部分是事實審的部分"},{"start":2185.756,"end":2207.127,"text":"40省的部分高等法院跟地方法院原則上我們所做的錄音錄影是不會公開播送的原則上是採取禁止的態度另外的時候有開放涉及到重大的公共利益或社會矚目的案件"},{"start":2208.291,"end":2228.443,"text":"我們可以考量跟公共利益的關係審判程序的公平性程序參與人及他人權益的均衡維護等一切狀況就公開行延遲辯論及裁判的宣示所謂的錄音錄影例外的可以公開"},{"start":2230.563,"end":2251.992,"text":"那在例外公開的情況之下我們針對有關於會涉及到一些本來性質上面就不適合公開的案件就把他排除在外因為有很多可能婦女團體兒少團體他們關心的一些案件他目前本來"},{"start":2253.171,"end":2278.192,"text":"我們在法院的實際上面的進行就是以不公開法庭的方式這當然不在法庭直播或者是說比較精準的用法是說錄音錄影以適當的方式來公開播送的範圍這個我想先說明一下那你說什麼樣的案件重大的公益或社會矚目的案件其實"},{"start":2279.949,"end":2307.39,"text":"在我國過去司法的實務上面在法律沒有授權的情況下有沒有法官在具體的個案當中裁定公開播送其實是有的我相信司法院應該也很清楚像在蘇炳坤在審的案件當中陳審的法官認為這個案件涉及到"},{"start":2308.956,"end":2319.884,"text":"重大的公共利益他就裁定公開播售那當然後來司法院有去勸阻那個法官說不要這樣做因為"},{"start":2321.395,"end":2350.436,"text":"我們相關的規範還沒有建立在沒有法律授權的基礎之下法官有沒有權限去做這樣子的裁定那好像 司法院這邊有不太一樣的看法那但是我們最起碼可以肯認一件事情 肯認什麼事情法官在個案當中他針對個案所有利害關係的權衡他認為公開播送"},{"start":2351.82,"end":2378.655,"text":"他具有重大的公共利益的時候他是可以做這個裁定的那我們例外公開的情況之下在我們黨團所提出的法條設計當中我們把決定的權限交給法院我在裡面沒有建立任何的剛性規則什麼叫剛性規則就是某一種特定類型的案件你一定要公開 沒有沒有做這樣子的規定"},{"start":2380.063,"end":2398.801,"text":"那過去 事實上大家也可以想像的到說有很多可能會涉及到重要的公益或社會矚目的案件譬如說有關於2004年的時候總統大選結束了以後所引發的訴訟對於一個國家的穩定對於整個"},{"start":2405.639,"end":2432.966,"text":"選舉正當性的維持民主正當性的維持這個絕對它所涉及的公共利益非常非常的高那即使是如此我們都沒有設定任何剛性的規則把該考慮的因素把它如列出來了以後我們讓法官在個案當中他可以來加以決定例外是不是應該予以公開所以"},{"start":2436.029,"end":2449.317,"text":"針對我們所提出來的條文也參酌了在公聽會的時候有各方面的專家所提出的寶貴的意見不管是隱私權的保護"},{"start":2450.894,"end":2463.958,"text":"或者是說證人的保護等等我們在相應的條文當中都已經有做了一些清楚的設計出來那我們希望能夠實現的就是讓陽光照進法庭"},{"start":2471.154,"end":2497.336,"text":"這不是什麼人民公審昨天我在黨團協商的時候我也清楚的跟大家報告這不是要人民當審判者更何況有很多案子搞不好或現實上台灣社會都看得到在偵查階段的時候在偵查階段的時候就莫名其妙的有特定的媒體啊都可以做獨家的報導"},{"start":2500.168,"end":2501.094,"text":"那什麼叫做公審"},{"start":2503.275,"end":2531.961,"text":"審判的還是法官審判的還是法官那但是有關於司法權公正行使的這件事情他本來就應該要接受社會公眾的監督那在事實審的部分我們也知道案件量很大我們也不是說什麼案子全部都要直播我們一開始採取的第一步相對而言是一個非常溫和"},{"start":2533.345,"end":2559.565,"text":"非常理性非常慎重的第一步那這個是台灣民眾黨黨團我們在提出這個案子的時候我們的初衷跟我們希望達成的目的誠如許一秀大法官所說的他也是當初2017年世改國事會議在處理有關於法庭直播這個分組的召集人"},{"start":2560.643,"end":2578.848,"text":"那個時候在那個小組裡面15位包括法律界非常敬重的李念祖律師嚴絕安教授包括其他非法律人所組成因為我們那時候斯卡國社會議你不能永遠都是法律人自己在決定嘛"},{"start":2579.639,"end":2608.885,"text":"那這樣子的話司法是為了人民而存在人民的司法這樣的口號就會變得毫無意義也沒有辦法實際上面啊都落實那這樣子中整社會各界的意見那個時候所做出來的一些決議那很遺憾2017年決議做出來以後根本沒落實根本沒有落實那我們現在只是把那個時候所做成的決議我們進一步把它建立法制化的一個基準"},{"start":2610.3,"end":2631.887,"text":"讓法官在各案進行裁判的時候譬如說像林孟煌法官他為什麼在蘇秉坤的那個案子即使沒有法律的授權當然法官他認為在那個時候的法院組織法下他已經有那個權限去做那樣的事情那那個時候的法律狀態的爭議我們也要去爭論"},{"start":2633.434,"end":2646.714,"text":"如果沒有今天的這個條文在現行的法院組織法下面法官可不可以做這樣的事情我今天沒有要挑起這個法律爭論但當初何義廷的法官"},{"start":2649.094,"end":2668.083,"text":"認為依照現行法院組織法的規定他們就有權限去做這樣的裁定只是司法院認為沒有司法院去勸阻他們說不要不要公開所以那個時候那一次的公開變成是一個半套式的公開什麼叫半套式的公開最後裁判宣示的時候有"},{"start":2669.147,"end":2687.638,"text":"有放記者進去拍整個歷程那但前面在更審的時候社會大眾可更關心的那特別是在冤錯案的矯正這件事情上面怎麼會發生這麼重大的錯誤讓一個無辜的人"},{"start":2690.044,"end":2705.224,"text":"蒙受這樣的不排之淵平白做了那麼多年的牢這個絕對不是事後的國家願意賠償就可以處理的事情我相信全體的法律人大家心裡都要有這樣子"},{"start":2706.072,"end":2726.599,"text":"的一個替力那因此我們提出了這樣子的一個修正協議那以上先跟院長還有各位黨團的代表做以上的說明跟報告謝謝好 謝謝提案的台灣民眾黨團黃榮昭提出的說明我們接下來請司法院表達意見法務部請準備請司法院王副民事長請"},{"start":2728.545,"end":2755.178,"text":"主席 各位委員非常榮幸代表司法院來表達本院的立場關於草案的86條 91條跟93條本院是同意協商意見的至於90條修法司法院認為法庭直播有侵害公眾審判侵害基本權之餘所以在此鄭重的表達反對的立場"},{"start":2756.238,"end":2781.376,"text":"那我首先要說明的是說106年的司改國是會議呢他的決議內容是什麼他是要求司法院呢對於法庭直播的條件跟範圍呢在一年內加以研議那所以司法院那但是他不是施行不是要求司法院就是要實行了那司法院經過一連串很嚴謹很負責的研議呢我們經過了委託案"},{"start":2785.419,"end":2806.247,"text":"研討會、公聽會還有法規草案的一個諮詢會議那參加表達意見的學者還有實務專家不下100人次但是絕大部分是提出了疑慮所以我們得到的結論是法庭直播它有太多還有複雜的問題必須要去解決"},{"start":2808.928,"end":2832.457,"text":"那施行會弊端大於利益因此司法院才沒有貿然採行沒有貿然推動並不是司法院沒有遵守國是會議的決議這個是第一點一定要聲明的再來從106年時至今日當時的這些疑慮現在還是存在的那我們舉其大的"},{"start":2833.337,"end":2852.796,"text":"在法庭直播的這種情況底下,影像大量的立刻傳播出去了。在矚目案件,像殺人還有貪污這些案件,證人跟鑑定人,他們是不是能夠以平常心來到庭作證,他不會受到影響呢?"},{"start":2854.472,"end":2872.248,"text":"還有直播呢他也很容易他會導致輿論審判甚至於大家所疑慮的就說公民那個審判那這個會不會影響審判的公平甚至於司法的這個公信力這個都是我們要考慮的還有呢"},{"start":2873.209,"end":2894.785,"text":"直播那個情況底下他會把法庭活動所透露的這些個人訊息呢就是原原本本的把他那個流出去那這個是有侵害隱私權跟人格權甚至於還會不會有那個人身安全的疑慮這都必須很負責任的來考量再者"},{"start":2897.801,"end":2915.555,"text":"對於播出去的這些數位影音資訊、數位影音檔,它是有遭受二次濫用的可能的,尤其是現在自媒體發達的這個時代,就是對於這些二次的濫用,像是剪輯影音或者是加以招諷。"},{"start":2916.877,"end":2937.682,"text":"那一直到現在,草案中或者是我們現行的技術,到底能不能負責的去妥善的做一個管制措施呢?對於不管是原來草案或者是今天提出的修正動議,我們並沒有看到有完整妥善的解決之道。"},{"start":2938.789,"end":2967.543,"text":"那另外要提的就是說雖然說今天的修正動議90條第三項它對於事實審的原則上不撥例外可以撥是把這個權限委註於法官的決定但是呢以上所提的很多議題它事實上是有甚至有那個憲政的那個議題的層次這能夠讓法官決定嗎再來有些案件法官決定撥了有些不能撥那這些當事人他們的平等權"},{"start":2968.223,"end":2996.362,"text":"有獲得一樣的對待嗎就為什麼有些播有些不能播還有呢就是說你委出法官在程序一開始的時候就是說有一些社會所矚目的案件他可能本來就是有支持跟反對的不同的那個不同的那個民眾那在一剛開始的時候呢就要去先去解決法庭直播的這個議題他會不會因為程序議題呢而導致了這一個延遲"},{"start":2997.463,"end":3017.344,"text":"延遲那個訴訟的那個進行再下來呢就是我們剛講就是矚目案件呢他可能會因為正反意見不一樣有對立那這樣會不會造成就是在訴訟開始的那個前階段他就會激化了整個那個社會對立還有加深了對於那個司法那個不信任"},{"start":3019.406,"end":3042.411,"text":"簡單以上只舉極大的,我們要提的是,司法院作為法院組織法的主責機關我們的責任是讓國民他可以很安心的來禁用司法,很放心的來上法院他不會有恐懼、擔憂,我們也要讓法官他能夠不受外界干擾的做出判決"},{"start":3043.331,"end":3050.982,"text":"所以基於保障審判公平還有維護基本人權司法院是持反對修法的立場以上"},{"start":3059.482,"end":3078.473,"text":"好,謝謝主席以及與會各位委員先進還有我們司法院的同仁那我想法務部這邊表達三點立場第一點就是因為這個相關的條文,細貞的法律法院組織法跟細貞的條文主要是屬於司法院的權責"},{"start":3079.794,"end":3101.757,"text":"所以司法院的意見本部竟表尊重並且都支持司法院剛剛所提出來的相關的論點第二點因為大院在司法法治委員會在前幾個禮拜也有針對這個議題舉行過公聽會本部就相關的議題在公聽會上也有提出相關的意見包含剛剛司法院也有提到"},{"start":3102.458,"end":3116.212,"text":"可能恐怕會有害於這個公平審判原則的實現以及對於參與訴訟這個過程中除了原被告之外當事人之外還有很多其他的人包含這個"},{"start":3118.954,"end":3145.34,"text":"這個證人、鑑定人或是甚至法警庭員等等他們的相關權益如何在如果假設要進行所謂的直播的話如何有配套的保障等等之類都提出相當的疑慮那相關的意見仍請參閱那第三點因為本部的執掌主要指示這個犯罪的偵查那麼特別是關於這一個證人如果他未來"},{"start":3146.58,"end":3168.24,"text":"他預期他在法庭上的發言會被直播的話這一點恐怕會往前延伸到在偵查階段就會影響他這個協助發現真實的這個意願所以對於這一點如果沒有相關的配套措施法治完備的話本部也要在此來表達相當深的疑慮認為說如果貿然的由"},{"start":3172.424,"end":3184.334,"text":"這個陳審的法官單獨就可以來決定特別是我們看到條文裡面雖然這個裁定是給抗告但是剛剛已經提到事實上這一個抗告的抗告權人應該"},{"start":3186.576,"end":3212.824,"text":"不會包含到我們剛剛所說的很多參與審判的其他的人 第三人所以可能在這個部分我們覺得有相當嚴厲討論的空間所以在這邊特別以一併來提出來跟大院作為參考 以上謝謝謝謝法務部的意見我們現在請民進黨團請發言 國民黨團請準備主席 各位代表 各位內閣官員"},{"start":3214.363,"end":3230.663,"text":"本人請代表民主金融委員會表示以下幾點立場第一點,剛才不管市委員或法務部都表示非常反對立場,而且非常清晰我們要了解這本案,我們是尊重的"},{"start":3232.399,"end":3254.46,"text":"經過刷援以及訪問因為本案是近乎惡毒的案子換言之在委會沒有衡過然後就近乎惡毒之外又有大的司法制度的變革內容的變更是用近乎惡毒然後然後就開始要表決但是在表決前我們還是表示我們立場的態度我們近乎惡毒的案子其實"},{"start":3255.501,"end":3283.412,"text":"我知道他本身並沒有尊重所謂防衛所在省的這個委員會中心主義那我們會很清楚看到這案子本身就是一個政治事件的處理案子所以在這裡是用金額圖來處理,但是他是為了特定的案子,不然就是為了科幣的案子科幣案子所以要用直播來來搗亂整個法院的生命"},{"start":3284.494,"end":3298.033,"text":"這個審查程序以及引起業外的抗爭,至少分老而已,就是他不愛護政府的目的那前一陣子我們還沒有看到法輪直播,只有共產主義國家,這是第二點"},{"start":3299.008,"end":3320.953,"text":"另外一點,有關於實質內容的問題,剛才也講得很清楚,我還是在這裡要重申一點,也就是說所謂司改國是非議,是去研議不是去解議。當初司改國是非議的時候,我就表示一個很重要的立場,就是說司改國是非議,很多司法改革案子,"},{"start":3321.733,"end":3344.132,"text":"再這樣短短有幾天的分組或是五組這樣討論一些有關司法改革,乃至於法治面的一個變革,都是沒有公式坦白講,其實沒有公式也不可能變成一個要壓著立法院去吞下去的基本上我們要了解立法院才是最高的立法機關"},{"start":3345.353,"end":3370.652,"text":"是立法院來決定法,各黨各派來這裡決定法的立法,立法一直是怎麼樣並非是國事會議,沒有民意基礎人也有學者,也有一般老百姓一番大巴巴以後就決定說這個到底要不要是參人制還是陪人制,根本不可能的事情"},{"start":3371.793,"end":3394.45,"text":"所以在這裡要表達世外國事會議我們尊重但是它既然它本身也是演繹案子不用拿這個來引以示意第四點有關於實質面的影響度非常森嚴剛才世外演繹講得很清楚這幾個我們在上一屆通過刑務訴訟192條有關於"},{"start":3398.973,"end":3425.584,"text":"這個私刑監禁將來又要交他結婚的問題現在要找證人證人、監禁人乃至於醫生來做私刑監禁沒有人會敢上法院的這個將來直播的話回答人事案件會非常大危險所以我不管從整個飲食券或是整個飲食券上面或是人格券、私用券上面"},{"start":3426.653,"end":3449.22,"text":"都是非常大的挑戰尤其現在新的刑訴已經這麼困難你要採用法院直播是沒有人這是一個想像的但是要成為事實大家用這個想像成為干擾司法科幣案子的事實的干擾沒有人會認同的這將來經過編譯"},{"start":3456.422,"end":3483.428,"text":"將來這個引帶經過編造檢驗發生後遺症是非常重大的況且很多是無罪對應主義的那你這樣通過直播對他的傷害這樣判無罪的所有的,那是沒有辦法彌補的所以就不安的原因,不管從以上我所傳的幾點我們認為我們沒有辦法變成法庭直播請院長待會我們就"},{"start":3485.268,"end":3489.43,"text":"因為讓各黨去發言,最後就表決該面對的我們還是面對以上任何的一個公共政策當然都是利弊參成"},{"start":3505.476,"end":3520.011,"text":"那剛剛我聽到總召友特別提到這世界上只有共產國家有法庭直播那我突然發現這世界上共產國家多了蠻多國家的因為各國允許40省開庭法庭轉播的包括哪些共產國家我唸給大家聽"},{"start":3522.574,"end":3538.741,"text":"美國原來是共產國家加拿大原來也是共產國家澳大利亞原來也是共產國家紐西蘭原來也是共產國家南非原來也是共產國家巴西原來也是共產國家荷蘭原來也是共產國家義大利原來也是共產國家"},{"start":3540.242,"end":3560.803,"text":"我覺得突然發現這世界上多了很多很多的共產國家但是沒有關係啦我必須說一句實在話當然也有共產國家是採用法庭直播但是這跟共產國家不共產國家其實沒有什麼關係所以我們回到法庭的這個所謂的轉播的這件事情來看那實際上我們在這個"},{"start":3562.785,"end":3575.491,"text":"我們在昨天這個朝野協商的時候其實嚴格來講初步也是有達成某些共識啦那特別是在所謂的那個法律省的部分法律省如果是採取所謂的把影音影像公開播送"},{"start":3581.334,"end":3609.97,"text":"我先跟大家公開播送跟所謂的這個直播還是不太一樣那直播公開播送他是可以直播也算公開播送但是延遲直播也是公開播送這先跟大家先澄明這個狀況所以以民眾黨的提案來講的話兩種可能性都是存在的但是誰來決定還是由法院來決定那第二個我就要特別講就是說基本上像昨天我們的協商過程當中我覺得就是一個蠻好的一個範例啦"},{"start":3610.45,"end":3635.149,"text":"那五個條文有三個條文後來都達成共識了那那個司法院代表也同意做一些文字修正那我們就讓這個昨天的協商有一個初步的成果那對於所謂第九十條沒有達成共識的部分本來剛開始也有一個方向性的東西在討論是認為所謂的法律審的部分就比較不關於一些事實的一些呃呈現的過程"},{"start":3635.689,"end":3655.783,"text":"那這個部分大家其實也可以來考慮說這個部分開始來做有關於法庭的轉播只可惜到最後還是沒有形成一個共識所以就變成今天的討論那再來第三個我要特別講就是說其實我覺得我們應該把今天的這個法案當作一個提正司法公信力的一個契機"},{"start":3656.664,"end":3684.458,"text":"大家知道如果今天司法公信力是七成八成大家都很滿意那我覺得那個法庭的這個所謂的要不要轉播要不要公開播送影音的部分的話也許討論的需要性相對比較低但是我們現在看到歷次的民調我們司法的公信力跟滿意度常常有時候三成四成就相當的低落啦那讓公眾在一些我們有限制條件的案件之上"},{"start":3685.018,"end":3702.734,"text":"能夠讓大家看到實際上法庭上的一個運作那我覺得是有助於提升我們法庭的公信力那第四個我倒是覺得說民眾黨提案裡面已經把民進黨所擔憂的問題其實都有納入了啦你自己去看它裡面有很多的排除嘛"},{"start":3703.294,"end":3720.139,"text":"雖然說要做所謂錄音錄影的一個要做以適當方式公開播送但是你妨害國家安全公共秩序善良風俗造成個人生命身體隱私或營業秘密重大損害之餘者得裁定不予公開播送"},{"start":3721.019,"end":3736.459,"text":"所以你如果認為有些東西是不適合的實際上也給法庭有所謂的一個裁定不予公開播送的這樣的一個權利那嚴格來講我直接講啦其實我覺得民眾黨已經很體貼是開了一個我覺得不是一個門大開的狀態來做這個法案"},{"start":3738.642,"end":3756.851,"text":"他是先開一個比較小的門那往前面走那當然如果覺得這個門開得我們認為小如果大家覺得還是開得太大那就像昨天我們討論甚至也可以把限縮回來到法律省都是一個方向只是很可惜昨天我覺得司法院還是對於最後是都是採取反對啦"},{"start":3757.671,"end":3785.943,"text":"所以這是我必須特別強調說從第一件事情不要什麼事都扣到共產主義啦因為真的很多國家不是共產主義國家也有採取相關的法庭直播啦那第二就是說當然法庭的一個影像的播送我不能否認會有剛剛在座很多的一些有疑慮的不管是機關代表或是民進黨的那個委員所表達的一些問題存在但是呢 事實上也不能夠因業廢死"},{"start":3786.303,"end":3801.762,"text":"那有一些方式我們可以來去研議來去研商那特別我覺得這個條文本身已經有很多的例外除外的條款我認為已經是相當周延值得我們讓法庭的公信力能夠再次提升那值得讓人民"},{"start":3802.623,"end":3830.328,"text":"可以好好的來看看說今天法庭運作不要把人民視為所謂的那個猛虎一樣好像民眾看到了今天法庭運作的現況就會造成今天法庭的審判不公我覺得人民是幫助你審判公平怎麼會是把人民當作是一個洪水猛獸被人民看到法庭的一個影像的播送就會讓法庭的判決審判不公正我覺得這個我覺得要為台灣人民抱屈一下啦以上"},{"start":3836.695,"end":3850.927,"text":"今天的協調看起來有露出了這個曙光今天我們要做的事實上是一個司法改革也是符合人民期待的那剛剛柯總召顯然是誤會了他以為全世界只有共產國家有這個"},{"start":3852.421,"end":3871.324,"text":"法庭直播 事實上不只是剛剛自強煉的這個加拿大跟英國 澳洲 紐西蘭 上年印尼印度 連非洲的南非都有 在全世界七大洲 只有蘭吉州沒有所以或許這個柯總召的這個觀念改變一下"},{"start":3873.039,"end":3890.957,"text":"改變一下 今天或許我們朝野協商就有共識了可以很順利的通過法庭直播那今天為什麼要討論這個法庭直播最近我們的司法公信力跟蠻力度真的是非常的低前陣子這個台灣名利基金會做了賴清德總統的重要司政"},{"start":3892.264,"end":3920.392,"text":"他最差的人民最過病最不滿意的這樣就是司法改革然後呢在美麗島電子報啊你問到民眾說政治力有沒有介入司法案件高達將近六成57.6所以今天我們是到底站在司法改革的這一面還是站在反改革的這一面呢我們是站在符合人民期待這一面還是是在抹煞人民的期待呢剛剛"},{"start":3923.095,"end":3941.534,"text":"司法院的副秘還有法務部的次長都提出了一些意見我想用在你們的餘力跟你們的考慮之前蔡英文總統還有大法官許玉秀都曾經已經做了回答了我想先念一段許玉秀的講法她說其實啊"},{"start":3942.591,"end":3963.024,"text":"法庭直播沒有那麼可怕啦現在是民主社會公開透明早就是一定要走的啊根本沒有什麼是洪水猛獸的問題他還特別回答你們剛剛的問題他說啊很可惜啊有些學者跟法官後來出來批評說什麼法庭直播等於是人民公審侵犯隱私什麼的"},{"start":3964.127,"end":3983.193,"text":"但看起來他們根本就沒有看清楚討論的內容就急著發言甚至亂舉例像以前那段時間什麼南港小磨命案來反對但是這種案子根本就不是直播的這個範圍他更具體講他法庭直播這件事也不是草率決定的經過當初的司改國事會的討論他說"},{"start":3988.715,"end":4014.813,"text":"大家討論過非常多次了各種反對的聲音 事實上那時候都有被提出來有人擔心什麼 證人不敢作證 這你們剛剛講的啦還有什麼怕曝光影響隱私啦 還有什麼直播經費但是這些問題那時候都已經討論了很多委員都出來解釋 他說用技術性的方法都可以解決你說你可以打馬賽克啊 聲音也可以變噪啊甚至限制只有某些公益案件能夠直播"},{"start":4015.433,"end":4040.347,"text":"他特別強調 國內啊 像食安問題 環保 集體訴訟 貪污 選舉這些案子不涉及個人的隱私 社會關注度又非常高真的很適合 也應該要法庭要直播他推到啊 他說司法是要改革的就是要打開 讓人民可以理解 讓陽光照進法庭我們不是要全部直播 而是要有選擇 有條件專業判斷的來開放"},{"start":4045.66,"end":4064.555,"text":"公開不是問題反而是誤解跟恐懼才是真正的障礙只要方向對了透明一定是可以走得穩走得好的我相信大法官徐義秀當初的講法正好已經解答了剛剛司法院跟法務部的質疑跟擔心另外我想練一段"},{"start":4065.785,"end":4092.53,"text":"蔡英文總統做的結論他說司法院馬上就要陸續開放法庭直播讓必要的資訊可以更透明這是一場有意義的司改會議他不只是因為有非常多元的意見的呈現也是因為我們改變過去的這個做法我們邀請了過半的非法律人來參加討論讓司法改革不是極限只有法律人的觀點"},{"start":4093.59,"end":4114.651,"text":"也可以從使用者這個角度來出發兼顧著人民的想法跟需求這樣改變才可以使司法體系被徹底的體檢他說我要在這裡跟我所有的在任的法官跟檢察官互相勉勵打氣對體制內人來講對檢驗這個過程當然會讓人不舒服啊可是蔡英文特別強調"},{"start":4115.745,"end":4142.719,"text":"他說這一點我想沒有人比我更能夠更深身為公部門的議員領了國家的薪水我們本來就義務啊要去接受批評接受檢驗我相信大部分的法官跟檢察官心中都有著對改革的期待我們希望一起來推動司法改革他對你們有很多的這個勉勵為什麼認了這兩段一方面回答剛剛的問題一方面"},{"start":4145.386,"end":4161.358,"text":"這次台灣民眾黨提出來修法的這個版本一方面是遵循了這次司改會議的結論非常的溫和而且是大家經過詳細討論以後我們來採用的所以包括剛剛在提的"},{"start":4162.605,"end":4187.324,"text":"我們有極度的這個限縮包括只有重大的公益社會上很重大矚目的案件才是要直播的甚至它有很多的這個排除包括妨礙到國家安全的妨礙善良風俗 各種隱私在我們的條文裡面都有啊所以我再次的呼籲既然特別是總裁已經提出來你誤會了 只有共產國家 全世界都有我們沒有比印尼 比印度更落後啦包括點案的"},{"start":4188.394,"end":4204.245,"text":"鄭文榮很有名的律師嘛鄭文榮都講說他到全世界很多國家去看人家法庭台灣的法庭真的是落後了他不只是沒有法庭識破耶連法庭的公開都遠遠落後連印尼都比不上我們有責任推動司法改革讓陽光趕快照進"},{"start":4205.566,"end":4218.174,"text":"法院更重要的我特別提醒一下既然之前有誤會現在已經解開了而且有很多的回答了請不要再阻擋今天的修法我們趕快讓陽光照進整個整個這個法院讓我們全民的期待可以得到落實謝謝"},{"start":4236.286,"end":4264.418,"text":"中華民國憲法第八十條的規定法官本來就是依據法律獨立審判不受到任何的干涉我想這個審判獨立才是在整個法官法庭的存在的一個核心意義剛剛台灣民眾黨的講法其實乍聽之下有道理其實這個也有一點胡說八道為什麼呢"},{"start":4265.936,"end":4292.407,"text":"你如果去嚴格區分大陸法系跟英美法系的話你就會很清楚的看到這次的修法裡面啊你說立法理由裡面你去提到的就是這個義大利的制度不是不可以但是你沒有去你如果這樣子我就特別挑戰你啦那你為什麼你不是舉日本德國這一些跟台灣比較接近的法系"},{"start":4293.834,"end":4300.007,"text":"而且在美國聯邦法院裡面他的刑事案件他也沒有公開播送美國也沒有"},{"start":4303.018,"end":4326.875,"text":"我相信在座黃國昌委員也法律人我們師出同門我們當年在唸訴訟法的規定的時候開宗明義訴訟的制度就是在告訴我們我幾十年了我還記得很清楚我不用翻教科書訴訟制度就是為人民而存在要建立一個富有人性而溫暖的訴訟制度"},{"start":4327.475,"end":4339.791,"text":"好了 再這樣你下去做發展的話 都可以可以發展出很多很多的一個類型但我要提出來的就是說 你像譬如啊我們立法院前一陣子在解決醫療糾紛"},{"start":4343.543,"end":4369.363,"text":"醫療糾紛大塞車為什麼會大塞車鑑定人我不鑑定我一鑑定以後我這個醫師被公審所以呢我們去年才讓他上路而已一上路以後大塞車司法院你們就弄出一個變形出來就說好那不然你鑑定人你鑑定出來以後我另外你名字我把你迷封"},{"start":4370.336,"end":4389.236,"text":"把它給迷封 鑑定的內容不要讓外面的人看到鑑定的內容可以看到 鑑定的我們就把它做一個區隔我們是為了解決很多問題司法安將的一個辦法出來 我也覺得說好啦好啦 雖然法律的規定其實有所判決我們還是接受嘛 解決問題嘛我再跟大家報告"},{"start":4394.197,"end":4408.408,"text":"現在的審判制度裡面如果你不管是刑事案件或者是民事案件你違背公開審理原則的話那當然是當然違背法令都可以上訴到三審不管是民事訴訟法或者刑事訴訟法都有這樣的一個規定"},{"start":4409.724,"end":4433.901,"text":"那好啦 那你說公開審理 本來就該公開審理你們要的 我不只要公開審理 我要的是公開播送公開播送會產生一個很大的問題我真的很苦口婆心跟大家講大家一直提到的是說 唉唷 這個國事會議啊 如何如何蔡英文總統如何 我聽了很開心大家突然很喜歡大法官的 很喜歡蔡英文總統的很好 我聽了當然很開心 但是"},{"start":4437.199,"end":4446.906,"text":"那個只是一個方向我們今天這個條文我覺得最可惜的地方在哪裡如果大家覺得這麼重要的話那你就不應該把它經負惡毒我問在座司法法治委員會誰討論過這個"},{"start":4456.364,"end":4475.275,"text":"這麼重要的話應該是各政黨大家來討論剛羅志祥委員講得很好啊說其實好像有看到曙光了我昨天在抄以協商的時候我也認為說在法律省的部分大家可以接近只是說整個我們立法者就本院制定了很多過程"},{"start":4476.255,"end":4491.869,"text":"過程要見的事實裡面法官在適用法律的時候你一定要去含涉到這些事實要含涉到這個過程要見裡面來在含涉的過程裡面你事實還是會大公開我們怎麼樣去想辦法不要變成人民公審我接下來更要講啦我們每一位在黨的朋友你們最不要只有你們啦我到現在也奉行這個規定就是說"},{"start":4504.5,"end":4511.162,"text":"無罪推定 大家都認為無罪推定可是呢 你在事實審的時候啊 我告訴各位啊公開直播真的會變一種公審真的 我擔心啦 我擔心會變成一種公審會標籤化 半條命啦一般人民走進法院 蔣元溫起訴蔣元溫起訴就一定有罪嗎就一定有罪嗎"},{"start":4530.495,"end":4558.977,"text":"可是呢 我剛接觸的我們憲法八十條法官是依照憲法 他是依照法律他要獨立審判他後面憲法跟你講了一句話喔不接受任何干涉那我們現在是說 不行啊我們要民意來監督你啊這個監督好事啊但是有沒有干涉的問題大家思考一下我沒有特定的一個見解我只是提出來另外 我舉一個"},{"start":4560.273,"end":4576.443,"text":"我為什麼在野黨朋友提出的法律的條文我全部都常常都會反對我反對是有意義的我反對到最後為什麼大家就會來修正我再告訴你說你這個條文跟條文會打架譬如說我們按照民事訴訟法我們現在321條黃國昌委員你民事訴訟法的專家民事訴訟法321條第二項規定啊我把證人到法院來啦我這個訴訟代理人我要結論的時候"},{"start":4589.349,"end":4597.16,"text":"特定人在旁 有在旁聽我沒有辦法盡其陳述假設韓國瑜院長 你現在是那個 壽命法官"},{"start":4598.001,"end":4621.59,"text":"我是證人來了以後他們要接問我我說報告審判長有這些旁聽的人在現場我沒有辦法完全陳述審判長你就必須韓國院長你就必須做一個裁定那你們其他的人先退庭都必須要如此喔現行法令制度都必須如此喔那你現在公開播送以後好我沒意見那我們其他的法律我們也來修一修吧不要讓條文跟條文都打架吧"},{"start":4626.547,"end":4641.519,"text":"我們現在修的是法院組織法86條70本來就是公開審理那黃國昌委員這樣的一個今天再提出一個再修正案他當然也把昨天的疑慮排除掉了這樣很好但是呢你又把90條之事"},{"start":4643.24,"end":4659.147,"text":"你把全部都把它給凍結了90條在知識本來講的是什麼你持有法庭錄音錄影內容的人就所取得是錄音錄影的內容不得散播跟公開播送或為非正當目的之使用你把這條凍結完以後社會就會滑爛了就是說你的目的原來是這個"},{"start":4665.953,"end":4689.853,"text":"有這樣的不當的聯想 這樣就不好我不願意去對90條之事裡面把它凍結 去做不當的一個聯想但是呢 針對民宿訴訟法321條第二項 這樣的一個精神就是說我證人只要去到庭 或者鑑定人到庭我受到其他人干擾 我可以拒絕證言"},{"start":4691.175,"end":4714.951,"text":"那我更擔心的是什麼 你現在醫療糾紛 現在這麼多的一個大塞車那你大塞車 我們想盡辦法要去解決那現在你又跟他公開播送以後 我不去了我鑑定了我不去了 我是證人 我也不去了哪怕你把我拘提來 或者說我 我 哎喲 不去會發散亂 好我來 審判長你問我 證人 不知道"},{"start":4721.656,"end":4733.475,"text":"社會重大矚目案件你叫證人在那種壓力之下我還是會覺得有一點違反人性也許很多人膽子很大也有啊"},{"start":4734.298,"end":4751.311,"text":"我推定很多人就是對於到法庭上作證本來就是國民該有的義務他會很這個站在這個立場他會覺得說我本來就是國家法律的規定我就好好的就我所知道的我所見聞的好好的來向法庭陳述有些人真的還是會怕所以這對於整個法案發現真實這個真的是萬靈丹嗎"},{"start":4759.284,"end":4783.452,"text":"所以法治之間的一個衝突的部分大家其實真的可以想清楚今天這個超越協商院長都沒有情緒了吧真的沒有情緒了吧我真的是語重心長啊每一次提出反對我們就會進步有妥協就會有進步那你說法律審的部分請司法院再來考慮這個對"},{"start":4786.508,"end":4803.046,"text":"對整個國家法治你說要走向進步嗎見仁見智啦齁那但是至少有一個最低限度大家可以達成一定的一個看法否則啊我會認為啊會違反我剛所提到的幾個基本原理原則就是我們起訴"},{"start":4806.103,"end":4816.531,"text":"變成說好像是對一個無罪推定的原則是很大的一個我不覺得完全衝突但是會有很大的一個衝擊那今天"},{"start":4821.348,"end":4839.747,"text":"整個再修正的一個動議提出來以後要講說實在話啦 倉促啦 真的是倉促啦我相信可能本來昨天朝夕行商的版本就是沒有已經沒有經過這個委員會的去審查了那你今天又提出一個再修正動議有 有比較完備了 我看了"},{"start":4841.149,"end":4863.104,"text":"但問題就是說 這涉及到啊本來進赴二讀以後啊 我連開公聽會的機會都沒有啊是因為翁小林委員那個案子是在法院法官評決的部分有一個透明性的部分我還稍微插上一個插邊球這秘書長很清楚嘛就因為這樣我才有機會排那個公聽會那個公聽會 說實在話啦 一面倒啦不是贊成啦有啦 鄭文榮贊成 我怎麼不知道呢"},{"start":4869.665,"end":4876.91,"text":"國民黨推薦的六位裡面有兩個贊成四位反對嘛這個我們都在場的嘛 都是講我們都在場的嘛所以我今天提到這個我不反對公開播送但問題是說現行法制以現在來看的話會讓民眾覺得特定目的而且對現行制度產生過度的一個衝擊司法國是會議有這樣的建議沒有錯但是啊"},{"start":4895.495,"end":4915.236,"text":"在於我們立法院怎麼樣去弄出一套制度我最擔心的就是 院長醫療糾紛的部分我們剛處理掉而已那現在好了 你公開播送我剛舉的例子 怎麼解決民宿輸送法裡面規定的 相衝突的你怎麼解決以上提出我的憂慮 請大家參考"},{"start":4917.927,"end":4928.616,"text":"謝謝莊委員發言,華國昌委員請發言完畢之後我們會休息五分鐘互相溝通然後準備進到院會,請掌握時間,謝謝因為有一些制度上面的根本問題還是要解釋莊委員可能有一些誤會"},{"start":4932.031,"end":4948.632,"text":"我具體講你為什麼說你有一些誤會現行法院組織法90條之四的規定持有法院錄音錄影內容之人就其所取得的錄音內容不得散布公開播送或為非正當目的的使用"},{"start":4949.81,"end":4975.896,"text":"你這個條文是在現在沒有法庭直播的情況之下你才有辦法用你一旦有法庭直播的話你沒有排除才真的跟你剛剛說這樣的相衝突為什麼要排除他的私用因為有公開播送跟90條之事兩件事情在本質上面是相衝突的我舉個最簡單的例子"},{"start":4976.776,"end":5004.859,"text":"我現在就已經在法條規定的要件跟條件下面進行公開播送了那既然都已經公開播送了那為什麼還要受到90條之四的限制沒有啊你90條之四他在進一步的公開播送啊你本來就公開播送了那進一步再公開播送那媒體引用有關於公開播送的內容何錯之有何錯之有"},{"start":5007.282,"end":5032.521,"text":"你就會變成讓人家感覺有特定目的所以我就說你想太多了嘛你純粹從法律的邏輯來看現在的九十條之事 水熊啊 你冷靜想一想九十條之事有它特定規範的目的啦是 我知道 但是這個是在沒有公開播送的制度之下今天已經有一個在法定的要件跟程序下面合法的公開播送了"},{"start":5033.274,"end":5047.977,"text":"在這樣的情況之下你沒有去排除90條之事那問題才會大才真的造成了你剛剛所擔心的法條衝突那現在就已經合法的公開播送了那90條之事又說不能公開播送"},{"start":5048.658,"end":5069.524,"text":"那到底要以哪一個條文為當作基準我再跟你對話一下就是說90條之事有它的規範目的你把90條之事的規範目的你把它凍結完以後會產生那種片段你像譬如說我作證完我舉的例子你很不喜歡聽嘛你讓我一分鐘跟院長講完院長你是高官"},{"start":5072.742,"end":5099.855,"text":"我來跟你關說 我說 院長 我這個案子 標案拜託一下你跟我說 不行 我一切依法辦理 我們公務人員該清廉都對啊 然後呢 我底下我偷偷的塞一把給你好啦 我的證詞是完整的咧我後面到最後 我也塞了一把錢給你可是呢 我公開播送以後 我可以錄製啊 前面這一段啊"},{"start":5101.251,"end":5122.716,"text":"變成說我這個證人到庭以後我整個被公開你變成到外面去給我錄製的話拼命錄製的話造成片段那不是我的原意啊我的原意是跟你說你到最後是有收錢的可是呢那片段裡面有人就出來講說你看人家證人到法庭上講說是完全依法辦理的公務人員應該清廉的前段跟後段我的意思就是說"},{"start":5128.933,"end":5148.808,"text":"凍結以後會有不當廉潔的聯想但這小事這個你當然如果通過以後凍結了是沒有這些問題但原來規範目的在在幹什麼就很怕在你整個被告或者整個當事人你說去到法庭以後面對這媒體"},{"start":5149.989,"end":5168.198,"text":"有的證人到法庭上他就已經軟趴趴了講話就結結巴巴的又面對公開播送的時候我是比較擔心啦這個人之常情這是人性到這個怎麼樣讓他再往前一步大家再想一下啦黃國昌議員請繼續"},{"start":5170.61,"end":5199.128,"text":"所以我剛剛就做清楚的解釋我再把法條那個唸給莊委員聽經過第二條第三項合法公開播送之錄音錄影我已經合法公開播送了我當然不會受到就是條之四的限制要不然我這邊合法公開播送那邊又不能公開播送那你這個才是真的法條衝突我舉個具體的例子我們現在的憲法法庭有公開播送嗎"},{"start":5200.765,"end":5229.442,"text":"我們現在的憲法法庭有收到90條制式的規定沒有啊新聞媒體全部都在引用啊你在YT上面看到一堆袋子啊那你說就裡面有人剪片段的內容會不會有人做這個事會有人做這個事情啊就好像什麼就好像我們在任何公開播送的情況之下都會有人說我剪一段就好像現在嘛我講話我講的很有道理的部分故意就不剪"},{"start":5230.282,"end":5257.503,"text":"我失言的部分被剪接被放大這個在一個民主自由的國家當中本來就會發生這樣的事情啊但是全程的合法的公開播送它有什麼好處每一個閱聽人甚至被誤會的人被抹黑的人他可以回去看本來原始的長什麼樣子啊那個才是真正verify最好的一個"},{"start":5258.669,"end":5284.656,"text":"那個才是真正verify最好的一個方式至於說剛剛莊委員所指教的擔心證人的部分擔心證人的部分我們也聽到了這樣子的聲音所以為什麼我在裡面特別再加了一項特別再加了一項裡面規範什麼說如果為第二項或第三項公開播送參與輸送程序者"},{"start":5285.529,"end":5301.769,"text":"有正當的理由確信公開播送及錄音錄影會有下列情況之一者他可以依申請那代表的是什麼他有申請權他有申請權參與訴訟程序他有申請權不是只有當事人有申請權他自己可以申請什麼他可以申請"},{"start":5303.24,"end":5326.179,"text":"把錄音錄影與以變身變相或其他無法直接識別該個人的方式為之這個法條我已經也寫進去了剛剛講到一個非常重要的概念在個案當中我們為什麼給法官那麼大裁量的空間我再強調一次原則上是禁止公開播送"},{"start":5327.264,"end":5351.187,"text":"例外例外的時候真的有重大社會公益社會矚目的案件例外公開播送我讓法官去考慮所有可能會涉及到的因素涉及到證人的部分我也在這邊做了處理那我們所講的公開播送法官在那個案件當中他認為直接公開播送可能會"},{"start":5352.468,"end":5367.377,"text":"擔心假設真的出現剛剛您所擔心那樣子的狀況的話那公開播送什麼時候說要用Live的沒有Live的你也可以用Delay Live的方式"},{"start":5368.537,"end":5394.647,"text":"來去做處理這個在其他國家所謂的我們在講的法庭直播的時候有的時候也不要用直播兩個字就顧名思義我們還是回到法條的文字上面來看會比較清楚我想說大家立場不同我可以尊重但是有一些誤會我覺得還是應該在這邊適度的做澄清以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":5395.592,"end":5402.886,"text":"今天謝謝 今天黨黨幹部各位內席官員今天的我們的超越協商可以說非常優質大家根據自己的理解"},{"start":5404.652,"end":5430.56,"text":"把心中河畔拖出而且沒有任何爭吵沒有任何情緒性是非常難得我個人身為主席我很希望能夠達成一個共識所以各位如果同意的話我想我們就先休息五分鐘之後我就決定下面處理的方向我們進入這個寶貴休息時間行政部門也在我們再溝通一下那我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":5431.42,"end":5435.84,"text":"所以五分鐘之後 我來進行處理 好不好謝謝大家 請休息 現在我們開始休息"},{"start":5684.465,"end":5699.757,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝各位黨團的幹部也謝謝司法院跟法務部的代表那經過了休息之後大家可以有溝通的溝通沒有辦法達成共識那也沒有辦法我們就進到院會來進行來處理"},{"start":5701.778,"end":5728.467,"text":"那現在首先第一我們保留的條文大家意見沒有辦法達成一致二為了預留院會很多委員想踴躍發言的時間我們今天討論事項第一案的協商到此為止第三我們就依議事規定與院會進行本案相關的發言四另外依照黨團共識我們五點整在院會進行各條文黨團版本表決處理"},{"start":5729.907,"end":5732.031,"text":"五,我們現在定在四連整與"},{"start":5734.332,"end":5741.616,"text":"那3點50分我們進到院會來進行因為協商是比原定的時間多了一點 長了一點所以壓縮了院會委員發言的時間我們就訂3點45分好嗎 還有9分鐘"},{"start":5760.026,"end":5768.551,"text":"那現在我們就協商散會了並請大家移駕到院會我們進行討論事項第一案的處理再一次謝謝司法院以及法務部的代表謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}