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所以我剛剛所講的 我講的是原因如果依照你們這幾個原則 我跟你說你查沒有啦你絕對查不到的啦"},{"start":418.741,"end":442.902,"text":"我們業務單位已經有持續在跟經濟部那邊聯繫啦我們會密切配合經濟部他目前的盤整結果如果真的有所謂的聯合集體出貨拒絕出貨這個當然也是聯合行為啦這個我們會介入講什麼叫聯合拒絕出貨不會啊我又沒有拒絕出貨我只是說我用很多理由嘛晚一點我晚個四天晚個五天晚個一個禮拜"},{"start":444.639,"end":462.478,"text":"那請問這叫聯合拒絕出貨嗎我想這個我們在過去的對案都有處理過啦那我在這邊沒辦法給委員一個統一的標準的答案但是所有的聯合行為的這些問題我們都會在個案裡面根據我們掌握的事實主委我只是希望"},{"start":464.059,"end":488.845,"text":"我質詢公平會 我已經質詢到現在我在經濟委員會已經10年了所以每一次跟公平會好像永遠在雞同鴨講你們永遠沒有辦法站在消費者的角度即使消費者投書了 傳情了最後還是不了了之 就是查無實證"},{"start":490.385,"end":516.621,"text":"我今天為這麼快的一個時間經濟部已經在查了我們希望公平會要有所態度不要是被動的如果你今天用你剛剛所講的那幾個原因我給你保證你一定查不到因為有發動法現在業者很聰明他不會自己跳入到你們所講的這些"},{"start":518.579,"end":533.132,"text":"所謂你們判斷是不是聯合的一些樣態不會所以你們每次也都查不到所以我們希望這個部分你知道嗎現在塑膠袋大家"},{"start":534.473,"end":552.159,"text":"過去雖然我們一直在檢縮一直在檢縮可是在檢縮到現在還是有些必須要的那這些必須要的到底要怎麼去做然後到底我們要怎麼去抑制 你知道嗎 現在一個塑膠袋多少錢"},{"start":553.941,"end":566.286,"text":"這個我沒有不清楚沒有找不清楚嘛而且呢他現在轉嫁到消費者身上以前不用錢的現在要求消費者你一個要多少錢而且價格都往上提高"},{"start":568.123,"end":591.217,"text":"所以這整個是一個影響鏈啊影響鏈然後最終是誰被影響消費者我想委員關鍵我們理解啦我們都有積極在對市場進行了解還有跟經濟部門合作所以我不希望在這個整個中東的一個問題當中最後受傷的是誰受害的是誰是消費者"},{"start":592.574,"end":600.603,"text":"我的關鍵在這裡因為一路下來最後他會要求消費者去買這個塑膠袋那當然消費者他需要他就要買啊"},{"start":607.148,"end":621.359,"text":"可是轉嫁就是在消費者身上我們不希望在整個我們政府的一個第一時間沒有辦法去控管而導致整個消費者來受害是這樣好 謝謝主委 拜託一下 謝謝好 謝謝陳廷飛委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:42:19.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:42:21.558000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請公平會主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-26T09:42:22.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:42:22.619000+08:00","text":"請公平會主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:42:22.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:42:22.699000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:42:30.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:42:51.710000+08:00","text":"主委，我想今天大家應該都會關心，近期因為整個中東的石油危機，而衝擊到我們國內幾家石化供應鏈的部分，這當然有包含了塑膠、醫藥包材、肥料、建材等等。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:42:52.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:04.013000+08:00","text":"我相信這幾天新聞報比較大的就是塑膠袋，針對塑膠袋，你有去了解整個狀況到底是怎麼了嗎？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:04.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:11.896000+08:00","text":"我們有初步去了解整個塑膠袋產業的現況，包含不同塑膠袋的材質等等各種價格，我們都有初步去了解。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:12.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:17.578000+08:00","text":"但是目前這個議題就我了解，經濟部已經在做市場全面的盤整，我們會積極跟他們配合啦！","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:17.578000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:18.578000+08:00","text":"如果他們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:18.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:19.599000+08:00","text":"你們會積極跟他們配合？對。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:19.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:23.920000+08:00","text":"如果他們那邊有發現任何聯合壟斷、聯合定價的行為，我們就會介入調查。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:24.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:32.364000+08:00","text":"問題是現在有查到是不願意出貨，這算不算聯合壟斷？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:32.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:37.327000+08:00","text":"如果他真的有聯合集體拒絕出貨，這當然也是聯合行為的一種，但是……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:37.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:38.228000+08:00","text":"這也是聯合行為？對。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:38.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:38.828000+08:00","text":"但是我們需要證據啦！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:40.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:41.850000+08:00","text":"如果有發現中盤商……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:42.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:45.992000+08:00","text":"如果有集體拒絕出貨的事證，這也是聯合行為的一種。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:45.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:48.973000+08:00","text":"你剛剛有說要聯合嘛！是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:49.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:43:51.815000+08:00","text":"如果是1、2家呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:43:52.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:03.405000+08:00","text":"因為他的物料夠，他可能第一批買的塑膠原物料夠，但他暫時不出貨，這樣算不算？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:03.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:13.130000+08:00","text":"我們的重點在於他們不管是2家、3家或是……但至少2家，如果這2家彼此之間有一定的默契、有一定的合意，利用這個機會，暫時就囤積不出貨……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:14.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:15.411000+08:00","text":"如果沒有合意呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:15.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:17.372000+08:00","text":"你找不到合意的部分呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:17.372000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:18.372000+08:00","text":"沒有合意的話，我們的合意……","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:18.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:19.473000+08:00","text":"告訴我為什麼要合意？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:19.473000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:20.473000+08:00","text":"他們沒有合意啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:20.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:22.874000+08:00","text":"因為聯合行為必須要有合意才能夠發動調查。對啊！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:23.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:26.856000+08:00","text":"所以這個就是他們現在……人家說「有法便有破」啦！是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:28.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:30.329000+08:00","text":"你這個重點是合意嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:31.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:33.870000+08:00","text":"他們只要不合意，你就沒有他的皮條了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:34.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:40.132000+08:00","text":"我們合意的判斷不是直接要抓到說你們有講好，還是可以根據一些間接的事證來推論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:40.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:41.572000+08:00","text":"間接的事證是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:41.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:43.793000+08:00","text":"我實在對你們公平會沒有什麼信心啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:45.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:56.596000+08:00","text":"如果不是兩方講好，你說只要有一些事證能夠抓出他們有合意的狀態，這樣也可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:56.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:44:57.956000+08:00","text":"好，請問什麼現象？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:44:58.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:45:07.158000+08:00","text":"譬如市場結構是寡占，譬如業者彼此之間的成本結構差很多，但是價格卻調成一致，像這種情況都是違反廠商自律的……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:45:07.158000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:45:08.158000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:45:07.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:45:33.367000+08:00","text":"主委，我剛剛已經跟你講了，因為這家公司可能當時候進的塑膠原料比較多，所以可以生產的比較多，然後他知道現在的狀況，只要他晚一點、晚了一個禮拜，你知道那個價格就可以漲很多，他不用跟你再做合意啊！","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:45:33.367000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:45:34.548000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:45:34.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:45:43.773000+08:00","text":"所以我才會講同業之間理論上要競爭，假設你生產東西的成本比對方低，你為什麼價格要調得跟他一樣？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:45:43.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:45:45.073000+08:00","text":"這個就是我剛剛講所謂的間接事證，顯然彼此之間……","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:45:46.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:45:49.375000+08:00","text":"主委，你可能不了解市場，你這樣讓我很擔心。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:45:51.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:13.073000+08:00","text":"今天他要賣一項東西，如果現在所有的供跟需有落差，價格自然就跳起來了，不用他自動喊價，他只要等個一個禮拜暫時不出貨，那個價格就自動跳起來了，你知道這個狀況嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:13.073000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:14.073000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:13.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:17.294000+08:00","text":"因為供跟需有了不一樣的蹺蹺板。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:18.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:30.160000+08:00","text":"價格是會自動跳起來沒錯，但是委員可以想一下，假設我們在競爭，我們彼此之間沒有合意，我的成本比你低，雖然價格同時都跳起來，但是我可以不要跳那麼多，我就可以搶到你的生意啊！","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:31.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:32.623000+08:00","text":"你為什麼價格都一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:32.623000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:33.623000+08:00","text":"這就是我們初步介入的起點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:32.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:36.586000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，差個一塊、兩塊有什麼差？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:37.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:40.710000+08:00","text":"如果整個市場價都跳起來了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:40.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:43.593000+08:00","text":"我們不會以完全一致作為合意的標準。對嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:44.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:45.835000+08:00","text":"假設他的級距是差不多……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:45.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:46.135000+08:00","text":"這個就是關鍵嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:47.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:57.445000+08:00","text":"主委，難怪你們公平會永遠都查不到，永遠也沒辦法查到，我一直跟你說「有法便有破」，我為什麼要統一？","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:46:58.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:46:59.246000+08:00","text":"我不用統一啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:47:00.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:47:06.631000+08:00","text":"我價格自然全部都跳上來，我幹嘛跟你統一，然後再被你們公平會抓到說你們的價格一樣。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:47:06.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:47:07.732000+08:00","text":"沒有那麼笨的吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:47:11.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:47:12.903000+08:00","text":"有那麼笨的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:47:12.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:47:20.208000+08:00","text":"我就跟你講，在整個供跟需有了不一樣的平臺，當然價格就自動跳起來啦！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:47:20.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:47:34.926000+08:00","text":"他只要晚一個禮拜出貨，價格就自然跳起來了，不論漲了兩塊、漲了三塊，他都是漲、都是賺的，所以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:47:34.926000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:47:35.926000+08:00","text":"我剛剛跟委員報告過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:47:35.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:47:37.808000+08:00","text":"如果依照你們這樣的標準，你永遠查不到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:47:38.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:47:41.810000+08:00","text":"我們不會以價格完全一模一樣作為聯合合意的依據啦！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:47:42.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:47:52.056000+08:00","text":"只是我們還是要看看並判斷他是不是有合意，當然這證據很難找，但是我們會用一些間接的事證來推論，其中就是包含他這樣做是不是理性？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:47:52.056000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:47:53.056000+08:00","text":"從經濟的觀點來看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:47:52.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:48:17.401000+08:00","text":"主委，我為什麼會提這個議題，其實你們每一次都慢半拍，之後要查都查不到證據，也查不到資料，所以就算有人跟你們檢舉了，因為你們說要有人檢舉，你們才會去辦，如果沒有人檢舉，你們不會去辦嘛！","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:48:18.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:48:37.500000+08:00","text":"好，現在這整個事實狀況，媒體已經報得亂七八糟了，已經搞得沸沸揚揚了，到底是因為真的原物料缺貨，還是真的在中盤商間有人故意控管？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:48:38.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:48:46.065000+08:00","text":"因為經濟部已經有這樣的聲音出來，而且也查到、意識到有這個狀況，所以經濟部才要全面去盤查，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:48:46.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:48:46.205000+08:00","text":"是因為這個原因嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:48:46.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:48:57.613000+08:00","text":"你們如果沒有配合的話，經濟部盤查有什麼用，你們要相對的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:48:58.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:05.437000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛所講的是原因，如果依照你們這幾個原則，我跟你說，你查不到啦！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:06.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:07.759000+08:00","text":"你絕對查不到的啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:08.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:20.752000+08:00","text":"我們業務單位已經有持續在跟經濟部那邊聯繫，我們會密切配合經濟部目前的盤整結果，如果真的有所謂的聯合集體拒絕出貨，當然這個也是聯合行為，我們會介入調查。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:20.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:23.394000+08:00","text":"什麼叫聯合拒絕出貨？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:23.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:23.734000+08:00","text":"不會啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:23.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:25.115000+08:00","text":"我又沒有拒絕出貨……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:25.115000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:26.115000+08:00","text":"就是剛委員講的合意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:25.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:28.038000+08:00","text":"只是說我會用很多理由嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:29.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:37.962000+08:00","text":"我晚一點、晚個4天、晚個5天、晚個1個禮拜，請問這叫聯合拒絕出貨嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:37.962000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:38.962000+08:00","text":"我會有很多的理由啊！","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:38.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:45.110000+08:00","text":"這些我們在過去的個案都有處理過，我在這邊沒辦法給委員一個統一的標準答案啦！","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:45.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:49:50.556000+08:00","text":"但是所有聯合行為的這些問題，我們都會在個案裡根據我們掌握事實的程度來判斷。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:49:50.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:50:18.845000+08:00","text":"主委，我只是希望……我質詢公平會到現在、我在經濟委員會已經10年了，每一次跟公平會好像永遠是在雞同鴨講，你們永遠沒有辦法站在消費者的角度，即使消費者投書了、陳情了，最後還是不了了之，就是查無實證。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:50:20.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:50:57.086000+08:00","text":"我今天會以這麼快的時間，經濟部已經在查了，我們希望公平會要有所態度，不要是被動的，如果你今天用你剛剛所講的那幾個原因，我跟你保證，你一定查不到，因為「有法便有破」，現在業者很聰明，他不會自己跳入到你們所講的這些所謂判斷是不是聯合的樣態，不會，所以你們每一次都查不到。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:50:57.086000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:50:58.086000+08:00","text":"我們已經有積極跟經濟部在配合啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:50:58.086000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:50:59.086000+08:00","text":"這一點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:50:57.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:51:01.090000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望這個部分……你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:51:01.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:51:16.657000+08:00","text":"現在塑膠袋……過去雖然我們一直在減塑，可是減塑到現在，還是有些是必須要的，那這些必須要的，到底要怎麼去做？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:51:17.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:51:19.918000+08:00","text":"到底我們要怎麼去抑制？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:51:20.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:51:22.159000+08:00","text":"你知道現在一個塑膠袋多少錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:51:23.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:51:24.902000+08:00","text":"這個我不清楚，沒有掌握。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:51:25.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:51:45.467000+08:00","text":"你不清楚嘛，而且它現在轉嫁到消費者身上，以前不用錢的，現在要求消費者一個要多少錢，而且價格都往上提高，這整個是一個影響鏈，最終是誰被影響？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:51:45.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:51:45.888000+08:00","text":"是消費者。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:51:46.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:51:47.088000+08:00","text":"我想委員關切的部分，我們理解。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:51:47.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:51:52.031000+08:00","text":"我們都有積極對市場進行了解，還有跟經濟部合作，只要有聯合行為，我們一定會辦。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:51:52.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:51:58.815000+08:00","text":"我們不希望在整個中東的問題當中，最後受傷的是誰？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:51:58.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:52:00.456000+08:00","text":"受害的是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:52:00.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:52:01.197000+08:00","text":"是消費者。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:52:02.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:52:30.118000+08:00","text":"我的關鍵在這裡，因為一路下來，最後會要求消費者去買塑膠袋，當然消費者需要就會買，可是轉嫁的就是在消費者身上，我們不希望政府第一時間沒有辦法控管，導致整個消費者受害，是這樣的。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-03-26T09:52:30.118000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:52:31.118000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒，我們會積極地去調查，謝謝，沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員亭妃","start":"2026-03-26T09:52:30.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:52:31.098000+08:00","text":"謝謝主委，拜託一下，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-26T09:52:31.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T09:52:31.359000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳亭妃委員，謝謝主委。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-26T09:52:31.859000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T09:52:36.144714+08:00","text":"接下來請呂玉玲委員上臺質詢，謝謝。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}