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謝謝主席 是不是請我們洪部長有請洪部長部長"},{"start":19.766,"end":34.934,"text":"這個你們開放了12歲以下有小孩的家庭就可以直接申請這個外籍幫傭那剛才你很多委員問了那你說你們評估很久事實上也真的評估很久了那我現在問你們你們到底做了什麼評估"},{"start":36.842,"end":51.734,"text":"具體的你們評估至少去年我問你你就說你們正在評估至少在你沒上任以前他們也說他們在評估了在勞動部而言已經評估很久沒有兩年三年也很多年了那你可以具體告訴我你們評估多久了然後評估什麼結果報告來了可以告訴我們嗎"},{"start":58.438,"end":81.463,"text":"其實在這幾個月裡面我們第一個還是要先去掌握到底有沒有這個需求或需求的樣態是怎麼樣我現在要問你說你們做了失業衝擊評估了嗎我們其實對於包括他可能會對於這個托育的人員或者是家事的人員其實可能會有會不會對於你先回答我有多少家事服務"},{"start":82.564,"end":99.145,"text":"員的從業人員多少的居家保姆多少終點家事工終點替人家煮飯打掃的你先告訴我有多少從業人員再來告訴我你們評估這幾年了不是幾個月你沒上任以前他們也說他們在評估"},{"start":100.066,"end":105.689,"text":"那評估這麼久的衝擊是多大?跟文說明,第一個,家事從業人員是1.3萬人家事從業人員1.3萬,居家保姆多少人?居家保姆大概2.8萬人終點家事打掃的還有煮飯的多少?家事從業人員是1.3萬1.3萬,你們從以前就這樣講,其實不止耶現在多少廣告都在講說,我倒是來幫你煮飯耶"},{"start":127.18,"end":130.343,"text":"你們關於這個評估怎麼統計 你告訴我統計資料怎麼統計這個結果居家是2.8萬你要告訴我 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你的政策目標是什麼我跟委員說明 第一個我們其實在這個政策裡面最重要的幾個目標第一個是希望讓勞工 尤其雙薪家庭的勞工可以減少離職 安心上班 這是第一個第二個是家庭減壓"},{"start":324.582,"end":337.058,"text":"有人因為12歲的小孩以下會離職的就是女性欸 沒聽過是男性啦幾乎很少啦 爸爸有 很少啦大多數都是女性啦"},{"start":338.137,"end":344.802,"text":"所以你不要講說雙薪家庭 你要講說女性女性的勞參率大幅下降托盟已經講過N變了我們也講過N變 兩個階段一個是小孩 一個是就救孩子再來就是職場的第二個滑坡就是救孫 把孩子帶走全部都是救孩子而這數十年來我們把"},{"start":366.059,"end":379.678,"text":"這個照顧的政策這樣一步一步整個公民社會整個台灣的政府一步一步的就把這些照顧的責任再往良好的公共政策把照顧公共化"},{"start":380.868,"end":397.912,"text":"我們透過育兒的政策照顧假的政策留職停薪的政策然後未來也有很多人在講要有薪無薪的照顧假等等配套一直進來然後你們不是在什麼育兒補貼嗎政府的現金補貼不是也都進來了嗎"},{"start":401.693,"end":416.082,"text":"我們一步一步在往這個公共照顧化公共化照顧的方向在前進而你今天這個政策其實在鼓勵大家說不用了有錢的就自己買照顧家庭化付費化然後自己買單所以整個整個照顧的政策走回頭路啊"},{"start":430.08,"end":438.345,"text":"對不對我可以說明嗎你的政策目標是在大開30年往公共化的照顧政策的反方向咧我們比方說育嬰留庭的彈性已日傾現在也是我們大力正在推動的未來也希望能夠擴大研議現在很多如果如果外籍邦傭進來我請教你他可不可以顧小孩"},{"start":460.165,"end":488.042,"text":"他當然可以輔助性的會參與一些小孩的這個照料餵飯等等這都很有可能的你們的社家屬衛福部的社家屬張美美副署長說外傭只會是家長的幫手家長在的時候是由家長負責照顧責任啊你們不是說要減輕女性的勞動力勞工的這個家庭負擔嗎啊家庭在我都上完班下班了累死了我要怎麼顧"},{"start":489.571,"end":499.378,"text":"以增加女性 留住女性勞參率為前提去開放然後你說家長在的時候就要自己顧這樣子有減輕女性的負擔嗎我下班了家長沒有上班大家就送到這個托嬰或是保母或是托育機構或是學校"},{"start":515.049,"end":543.446,"text":"那我下班了就自己顧下班再來的時候就回來很累還要顧所以就很累但你們現在說這個政策是只要你在家顧小孩這個幫庸是不能顧的這不是到底是要顧還是不能顧我們不是說不能顧其實應該是它的確是一個比較輔助性的可是的確我們在這個評估的過程我們也看到有蠻多不同的樣態我現在就是說你們在這裡都是睜眼說瞎話其實都是全部交給外傭顧啦"},{"start":545.376,"end":552.241,"text":"老實說就全部丟給外傭誰不知道現在長照制度裡面說是要照顧失能的誰不知道家事啦 煮飯全部都是那個外籍移工要做大家都知道 你說自己家庭幫傭不是照顧小孩的騙笑的嘛 沒可能嘛可是我要講你們不是把這個照顧公共化的政策走回頭路而已你們還把顧小孩連保母顧小孩都要正照制度"},{"start":574.776,"end":575.858,"text":"你連顧小孩都認為不需要專業連語言都不需要專業了"},{"start":581.844,"end":607.352,"text":"顧小孩 外傭顧他的語文能力 連這個都不需要顧及了然後呢 保姆要政造制度你們也不用了依據兒少權法保姆居家室托育服務提供者應向各地方政府主管機關辦理登記然後沒有的話是不行的 不能顧小孩的現在是外籍幫傭 外傭就可以顧小孩"},{"start":608.695,"end":612.357,"text":"這個是連照顧小孩、托育制度都在走回頭路欸我現在講說你們有做出兒童最佳利益的評估嗎在這裡勞動力被取代了然後托育政策走走回頭路然後整體三數十年來努力的照顧公共化也走回頭路"},{"start":638.786,"end":653.147,"text":"保定你到底承不承認會不會對本國就業會造成失業衝擊啊我們會在這個我們會有一定的就業政策的支持所以你承認是有衝擊嗎"},{"start":655.335,"end":665.968,"text":"當然如果沒有任何配套的話或多或少都會有一點影響怎麼或多或少會有一點影響但是這是為什麼我們要訂定配套來設家屬你們政策公佈以後"},{"start":669.324,"end":676.307,"text":"社家屬雖然是衛福部的馬上開了一個會3月23號叫大家來開會開會是通3月23發文3月24就要開開了一個因應勞動部外籍幫傭政策的相關配套專案會議這個會議在講什麼這個會議在講勞動部的業務裡面最核心就是在講"},{"start":698.315,"end":701.276,"text":"居家托育人員多元就業獎勵計畫所以你們知道說這個會受影響嗎會直接衝擊到本國就業嗎所以我們要提就職職的方案你是無可替代到非開放不可嗎"},{"start":720.137,"end":743.639,"text":"沒有就都沒人做了嗎 現在先行就是有人做有錢人請會去外邦傭的 現在也是請本國邦傭在做啦你自己說我開放外國邦傭 他更爽 有錢人家庭 因為更有薪金請不上去的 因為我也是請不上去來 恐受影響 所以你們明明知道"},{"start":745.013,"end":767.023,"text":"這一些不管是顧小孩的終點家事的幫忙倒載煮飯的倒載打掃的保姆還有保姆爸爸保姆我請問你如果一般人失業可以領失業給付他們這些人可不可以領如果被外籍幫傭來取代掉了他們可不可以領失業給付如果當然是失業的話當然都可以領失業給付"},{"start":774.153,"end":778.938,"text":"那是要有雇主的啦那這些人有雇主嗎不要不食人間煙火在你們開放這個政策就會受衝擊會失業會被取代掉的人他們都是投保在"},{"start":792.372,"end":807.958,"text":"職業公會哪一個是有雇主的我們有評估過第一個他其實不是一個失業的邏輯基本上他可能會比方說有可能假設都沒有配套的話他可能確實會有一些服務的實施那你的配套是什麼你配套就是這個難就業安定基金給獎勵金不是嗎你們24號召集大家你們評估的就是8000人受益就是你們評估8000人會受失業會失業嘛"},{"start":821.963,"end":838.848,"text":"所以計劃錢就來自於就業安定基金嘛就是你們評估失業了要給獎勵金前一頁你們就是要給獎勵金嘛跟文說明就業安定基金不是只是因為他失業而是他可能包括他勞務上面包括各種的需求我們都知道啦還再去轉職訓練啦總而言之"},{"start":843.809,"end":846.453,"text":"如果你沒有開放這些外籍幫傭不會衝擊到他的就業他不會失業 他都用不著你我可以自己賺錢我幹嘛還需要去領你那多少錢啊你能夠給多久你能夠給多久 再來"},{"start":860.11,"end":873.78,"text":"這一些從業人員居多包括保姆包括家事服務工終點的服務工到宅煮飯的很多都是本來就是二度就業的而且都是婦女的從業人員的"},{"start":876.002,"end":892.287,"text":"你讓他們在這裡再失業一次你覺得他們還會再轉業嗎不是中高齡轉業 是高齡再轉業他們會 大家都知道轉職再轉職 越轉越往下往下流的地方流啦我是覺得說"},{"start":899.568,"end":913.896,"text":"一邊說不會被取代掉不是失業不是被取代掉然後你在這邊說我一邊要規劃他們轉職補助還有其他就業訓練轉職訓練還有其他的你剛剛講還要其他所以你的意思其實就是到底承不承認對本國的從業人員真的造成失業衝擊明明就是失業衝擊你在這裡還要講說沒有不是"},{"start":928.991,"end":945.646,"text":"跟文說明第一個當然如果都沒有任何配套的話確實會獲得你的配套就是失業以後我給你配套來承擔我們更多的在就業上面的支持其實更多是希望能夠擴展他勞務的機會而不一定一定是他是失業以後才擴展他勞務的機會就是讓這個市場變大"},{"start":952.893,"end":960.238,"text":"那我問你 如果這個市場有需求 有能力負擔我會早不請晚不請 你說現在找便宜的我跟你講真的有這麼便宜嗎如果可以請外勞 終點加外勞 我早就想要請了"},{"start":968.343,"end":977.966,"text":"我幹嘛等到你開放你說因為開放以後會比較便宜你一定說比較便宜所以他會請得起嘛你的理由是這樣嘛我現在要告訴你我們當時而且你也同意在國民黨修法要開放80歲以上全部開放外籍看護的時候長照失能的時候我們當時就講你也這樣講"},{"start":991.311,"end":1017.578,"text":"整個外籍移工的就業市場供給遠遠小於需求供給遠遠小於需求 當你開放了在顧小孩 在做家事的這邊的幫傭如果不是144萬的需求 五分之一就好了二十幾萬的需求 就跟你再評估八十幾歲 八十歲"},{"start":1020.158,"end":1047.531,"text":"這個開放外籍看護一樣我們評估二十幾萬人有這個需求就好了 同樣的邏輯他會不會照 我不要講說全部就馬上沒工啦大家寧可去當家事幫傭 外籍醫工大家寧可去顧小孩誰要去顧長照的失能的重度癱瘓的 沒有"},{"start":1048.391,"end":1056.41,"text":"如果移工他如果可以選擇可以轉換雇主他一定馬上說我要換去雇小孩誰要雇這個癱瘓在那裡的"},{"start":1058.359,"end":1065.725,"text":"而且這個市場供給小於需求所以需求面 你開放了 需求面擴大了那麼市場的價格就會上漲了大家都知道這個價格已經上漲了還沒有開放外籍家庭幫傭的時候已經上漲我再問你一件事開放外籍幫傭要不要適用勞基法你可不可以回答我"},{"start":1084.88,"end":1108.295,"text":"這一些在幹顧長照的都不用適用勞基法沒有得到勞基法的勞動權益勞動條件的保障那我再問你在幹顧小孩家庭幫傭的這一些外籍移工外籍幫傭要不要適用勞基法你在這裡回答我目前就法規上面家事移工是沒有適用勞基法"},{"start":1109.721,"end":1118.509,"text":"他是因為長照那個是政策上的管制現在我問你現在家庭當庸你還是要繼續讓他不適用可是即便因為大家適用了勞動力就沒那麼便宜了啦"},{"start":1124.995,"end":1143.099,"text":"那大家要問你 你都以前就知道的在家事服務的領域裡面 在私領域裡面長期都有勞動條件上的不公平 甚至剝削的情形你以前當立委的時候 在這裡也大家的撻伐過的你講過的 那這個事情你還是要維持不適用勞基法"},{"start":1150.22,"end":1160.829,"text":"你覺得這樣子,這樣子的糾紛會不會更多現在,現在我給大家講齁你不要以為不是用勞基法比較便宜,沒有因為大家的玩家越來越多"},{"start":1161.854,"end":1165.275,"text":"因為呢 我不想要顧這個土地的牙師 我要顧勤課的孩子家事幫傭的 你不要給我照 我就每天跟你玩遊戲然後這個衝突 衝突就把照顧的責任丟給家庭自行去買單家裡面你自己請外籍幫傭的"},{"start":1184.58,"end":1195.269,"text":"失能的老人 外籍班傭跟僱主 大家要自己去承擔 情緒也有負擔然後政府雙手一攤說 這個跟我無關 到我無關的 我都不用去煩惱這個政府什麼都不用做 就要自己是僱主跟外籍看護跟沒辦法的失能的被照顧者 現在"},{"start":1211.562,"end":1233.967,"text":"現在這個吵架會吵得更嚴重我在這裡可以告訴大家因為你又開放了可以顧小孩大家更想轉職但我們的法規規定不可以轉換雇主要雙方合一才可以所以每天跟你玩玩到有一天你雇主受不了啊你終於就說 好吧 放你走吧"},{"start":1236.687,"end":1246.773,"text":"請問 那未來長照顧詩能的長期躺在那裡 重度的誰人要顧 外籍幫傭 外籍移工真的遠遠不絕嗎保證你回答我"},{"start":1251.377,"end":1267.339,"text":"跟委員說我們第一個在這個外籍看護工或外籍幫傭上面其實即便他是在家庭裡面的權利其實我們都希望接下來我們其實也透過相關的這個雇主的手冊或各種其實盡力的希望來去做維護"},{"start":1268.4,"end":1273.783,"text":"你現在做保釣也很厲害 做官也很厲害你現在空位跟以前做立委都不一樣我現在說 其實你如果說 喔 誠實的告訴社會我這個衝擊有多大 當然我準備怎麼做 那"},{"start":1285.689,"end":1289.392,"text":"這個對兒童的權益會有影響什麼那你們還會怎麼做那如果對這個性別影響是什麼我準備怎麼接起來那我們還可以在你們心裡面想說至少這是一個負責任的套路我還沒講完嘛第一個對於他可能會在跟中國工作者"},{"start":1307.068,"end":1322.833,"text":"跟針對本國工作者上面可能的工作的影響的部分我們會跟衛福部這邊來擬一整套的計畫來去支持本國工作者在勞務上面市場的開拓衛福部其實是喔老實說是你們過程下他們就下了啦我現在要說衛福部也有啦欸 抱歉 兒童托育服務法不用立得這麼嚴了啦"},{"start":1329.275,"end":1335.338,"text":"整個法還在立法院協商我跟各位來用心跟三更半夜跟整個開好開滿然後說嚴格管制保姆然後居家托兒要怎麼規範一邊強度的規範托育然後在這裡立法要很高強度的管理一邊要放寬沒有訓練的外籍幫傭來育兒"},{"start":1356.309,"end":1359.711,"text":"這個政府在那裡兩個政策在那裡打架啦所以說這個我們的托育服務法還需要這麼嚴格嗎還沒立法嘛 還在審嘛 在協商嘛通通都開放那這個道理對本國提供托育服務的人"},{"start":1373.618,"end":1386.328,"text":"這麼高強度的管制要求這麼多要受訓考證照登記審核要層層把關才能夠提供托育服務但是外籍幫傭連語言溝通都有問題沒有相關訓練資格訓練然後本國人資格門檻被檢查被高度要求外籍幫傭通通都不用這個這樣子的"},{"start":1397.777,"end":1402.78,"text":"這樣子我從來沒有聽過說本籍的比外籍的還更嚴格的同時大家在講話外籍比本籍管得更嚴格我們現在回到本籍的管得嚴外籍的管得寬這沒有違反兒童最佳利益嗎還要從嚴立法嗎"},{"start":1422.896,"end":1427.343,"text":"對不對光是顧小孩是這樣子那再來講說這個在這種狀況裡面性別平等"},{"start":1435.15,"end":1460.562,"text":"你們在講我剛剛講說事實上我們台灣整體社會包括政府把公共照顧服務往前推這麼多已經推這麼多了我們也希望透過公共政策繼續解決家務勞動還有育兒性別不平等的問題那政府也當時一路走來都被迫但也始終是站在往前推進的立場"},{"start":1462.142,"end":1474.831,"text":"結果現在你開放了這種外籍幫傭你不願意再繼續改善你的公共政策然後面對資源的制度人力多方面缺失的問題你用這種併擠亂投一的態度"},{"start":1478.052,"end":1497.862,"text":"我們公共托育或者是托育的政策我們還是大力的正在做你現在選擇一個最便宜的最階級化的最可能改善剝削的然後最不可以致力於改善公共照顧服務品質配置化的我們也大力的在支持企業去投入到托育相關的政策裡面包括公共托育的部分這都是"},{"start":1498.482,"end":1517.61,"text":"一直在做 甚至更大力的那我問你我們一直在 你也說我們在做長照啊然後你一直開放外籍看護啊有外籍看護我還需要去使用你的長照嗎我還在乎你的長照嗎我有家庭幫傭顧小孩我還需要你的公共托育嗎"},{"start":1519.44,"end":1538.634,"text":"所以我們訪談到很多他表達需要外籍幫助他一樣會把小孩送托我現在跟你講就是說他一樣會把小孩送托當政府選擇一種最階級化最可能產生剝削的做法而對於不願致力於改善公共你現在這樣是有多少買得起的人才能夠這樣子呢買不起的人呢"},{"start":1544.258,"end":1556.954,"text":"所以我們講公共照顧要服務的其實是買不起的所以公共照顧他的品質要普及化他的價格要可敬性為什麼要可敬性"},{"start":1558.206,"end":1579.675,"text":"他的服務的可敬性是大家都知道因為因為一般人沒有辦法有那種能力嘛而你現在這個開放家庭幫兇也不是一般人有辦法的啦這是在鞏固有錢人才能享有的育兒喘息的特權如果在這裡我們不要講特權抱歉我更正我講錯了這是"},{"start":1582.036,"end":1604.325,"text":"鞏固就是說有錢才買得起的走回頭路有錢的自己買工沒錢的自求多福這是家庭自行買單啊那我們是想一直以來都把國家把政府拉進來來減少女性的家務的負擔為什麼不是在制度面上設計說你應該有一個設計男性共同來參與家務然後或者是說對盤點0到12歲"},{"start":1610.487,"end":1626.313,"text":"各公共托育客戶照顧資源減少資源落差改進這個服務品質或是我們一直在講說把育嬰假變成這個家庭那個照顧變成照顧假然後開放到8歲然後一小時你們有了但你們現在只到3歲嘛"},{"start":1627.373,"end":1644.319,"text":"我們這部分在研議要擴大啊那也是讓更多的男性其實已經投入了啊這部分的做法跟政策我們一直在有錢推進啊那甚至是推出完善的有心家庭照顧就好現在來了現在就你們第一個不願意重新分配第二個政府的資源不願意再投入所以你現在選一個最簡單的有錢開放有錢的可以買社會的反彈壓力小"},{"start":1649.601,"end":1672.509,"text":"政府的資源跟政策一樣在推進如果開放二十幾萬人可以請家庭搬佣他可能對於育兒的辛苦或是家務的辛苦他就分擔了那反彈的聲音就降低了要求公共政策提供的聲浪也會下降所以在這裡是"},{"start":1673.849,"end":1695.349,"text":"你們直接開放讓高收入的家庭直接向全球南方國家購買廉價的勞動力啦所以這個照顧私有化的手段來規避照顧資源分配不均導致的社會不平等這個就是 這個是團體認為的啦所謂的不負責任啦 不負責任啦"},{"start":1696.482,"end":1713.928,"text":"真的是不負責任 連在友善職場的部分包括製度的部分我們現在也在擴大 正在研議以日傾的育嬰留庭 希望往前再推進包括資源的投入也更多包括托育的資源 包括企業托育的部分我們也都是更大力在做這部分不會改變 而且只會做得更多這個方向不會改變的開放到8歲 以小時計算我不是跟你講 我們這個"},{"start":1724.161,"end":1743.815,"text":"育嬰留庭合併計算進來我們目前就是希望能夠你們都不願意了3歲的部分我們就希望現在正在研議朝擴大的方向在研議這事情我已經在幾個幾週前其實我也跟大家報告過了目前就是往這個方向在研議中那這個要修法"},{"start":1746.528,"end":1763.839,"text":"我現在就告訴你你們在這種狀況裡面一直研議你們所有東西都是研議包括我剛剛講的衝擊你們也是研議你還沒上任以前也是在研議然後現在什麼研議這麼多年通通都沒有你現在在告訴我們說我們會繼續研議我們朝向更大幅的開放沒有啊你們現在的我剛剛講的這個包括已日請的這個這個照顧我們要一小時啊"},{"start":1774.367,"end":1783.115,"text":"整個總體時數沒有變 天數沒有變價格也沒有增加預算然後就讓你開放成幾個小時 你都不願意了"},{"start":1784.127,"end":1810.829,"text":"我認真不是不認真我們是一步一步再往前做對嘛我們之前三歲以前我們會把它擴大讓這個照顧的友善程度可以大幅改善的你們是牛步話然後讓家庭自己有錢家庭自己去買工沒錢的自求多福的馬上開放我們沒有牛步話目前一日請的部分才上路兩個月我們就一直在研議把它擴大了"},{"start":1812.298,"end":1815.06,"text":"我們呼籲了幾年啦第一個 年紀要到幾歲因為很多職場的滑坡 勞動力滑坡就是經常經常 孩子不是只有讓他長大讓他吃飯 讓他讀書要陪伴或是生病了 要到學校去這是我們在考慮的有心家庭照顧假 你給不了"},{"start":1834.075,"end":1862.054,"text":"你們雇主也不願意負擔政府不可能編列這個預算那我們就把這個育嬰留庭的假日整個天數都沒有動讓他友善到可以8歲然後以小時為計你們通通就講我們繼續研議你們說你們開放到天了王偉聖在那裡啦他知道這樣一路走來已經很多年了很多年了不叫牛布化那叫什麼"},{"start":1863.816,"end":1874.746,"text":"目前上路才兩三個月 那是我們推動很多年以後你才正式回應我們的第一次回應在你上路以前我們推動很多年啊 是啊所以我們接下來 政府是被推動的 不是政府主動的"},{"start":1884.329,"end":1899.164,"text":"希望能夠讓這個政策的擴大跟彈性都能夠再往前進這個我們非常非常認真的看待這個數據我們很務實的跟你講會提升婦女勞動參與率然後很務實跟你講不增加雇主的支出總時數沒有變彈性化"},{"start":1902.574,"end":1908.035,"text":"我就不曉得你們就是在還試辦的時候你還沒上任試辦的時候黃偉生還找那個輪班三班制的去試辦還失敗因為三班制一個蘿蔔一個坑當然失敗那是因為你上任我承認因為你上任所以你push他要先試辦再試辦一次友善的直接上路現在不是試辦現在已經正式上路那現在是以天為計"},{"start":1927.819,"end":1949.513,"text":"是 已經正式上路了 而且成效很不錯那我們 當然喔 有需求喔那我們跟你講 更友善 年齡要擴散 擴大然後呢 時數就是以小時為止我們有往這個擴大的方向 目前正在規劃跟研議這個東西只是一小小步 還用自己的育嬰留庭的價 按天數"},{"start":1951.181,"end":1976.122,"text":"那個只是我們勞工自己的天數你現在這一個你就在拿我們勞工裡面的來給我邀功不需要只是希望你們彈性化但我們希望的是政府應該做的是更多而更多並不是你台放外籍幫傭那個是有錢人才買得起的"},{"start":1978.274,"end":1985.528,"text":"那個是家庭自己買工沒有買不起的人買不起的人 這個政策有什麼可敬性"},{"start":1986.816,"end":2015.097,"text":"買不起的人這個政策與我有何干啊所以不同的對象其實就像來你看這個我跟你講這個對誰最有利喔仲介業來馬上我的朋友就LINE來了我的朋友馬上就LINE來了仲介第一時間開放宣誓政策的時候仲介打電話來來你看這個放大這個怎麼沒有喔最後一個啦我今天接到電話咧家裡有12歲小孩可以請家庭家事照顧外勞啊"},{"start":2018.427,"end":2037.612,"text":"馬上仲介一一打電話給有12歲以下的家庭的父母很多人接到很多人接到仲介等著要接所以我們第一時間就回覆他沒有人要照顧老人了沒有人要照顧老人了怎麼辦仲度失能的老人怎麼辦大家都想我要家庭幫傭了"},{"start":2045.047,"end":2056.03,"text":"那外籍義工不願意照顧老人 怎麼辦這不是你的業務 這衛福部的業務這個沒關係 吵架也不是你們承擔是那個家裡面的僱主要承擔所以現在是國家怎樣 雙手一攤有錢去威威 用這個就好了好 謝謝好 謝謝淑芬委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:25:42.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:25:46.154000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請洪部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-26T10:25:46.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:25:46.794000+08:00","text":"有請洪部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:25:46.794000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:25:47.794000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:25:46.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:26:13.914000+08:00","text":"部長，你們開放了有12歲以下小孩的家庭就可以直接申請外籍幫傭，剛才很多委員問了，你說你們評估很久了，事實上也真的評估很久了，我現在問你，你們到底做了什麼評估？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:26:16.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:26:29.653000+08:00","text":"至少我去年問你時，你說你們正在評估了；至少在你沒上任以前，他們也說在評估了；就勞動部而言，已經評估很久了，沒有兩年、三年也有很多年了，你可以具體告訴我們，你們評估多久了？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:26:30.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:26:30.274000+08:00","text":"評估出什麼結果或是報告嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:26:30.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:26:30.734000+08:00","text":"可以告訴我們嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:26:37.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:26:43.520000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個，其實在這幾個月裡面，我們還是要先去掌握到底有沒有這個需求或需求的樣態……","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:26:43.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:26:47.820000+08:00","text":"我現在問你，你們做了失業衝擊影響評估了嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:26:47.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:26:56.922000+08:00","text":"我們對於包括托育的人員或者是家事的人員，可能會有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:26:57.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:03.046000+08:00","text":"你先回答我有多少家事服務的從業人員？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:03.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:04.267000+08:00","text":"有多少的居家保母？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:05.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:09.975000+08:00","text":"有多少的鐘點家事工，就是鐘點煮飯、打掃服務的？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:11.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:19.586000+08:00","text":"你先告訴我有多少從業人員，然後再來告訴我你們評估幾年了，不是只有幾個月，在你沒上任以前，他們也說在評估了，評估這麼久了，衝擊是多大？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:19.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:20.047000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個，家事從業人員是1.3萬人。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:20.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:20.707000+08:00","text":"然後居家保母有多少人？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:20.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:21.808000+08:00","text":"居家保母大概2.8萬人。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:21.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:23.448000+08:00","text":"鐘點家事打掃還有煮飯服務的有多少人？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:23.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:23.749000+08:00","text":"家事從業人員是1.3萬人。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:23.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:24.669000+08:00","text":"你們從以前就這樣講，其實不只了，現在多少廣告都在講說他們可以到宅幫你煮飯。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:46.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:46.761000+08:00","text":"請告訴我，光是這個評估是怎麼統計的？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:47.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:47.321000+08:00","text":"就是這個統計資料是怎麼統計出這個結果的？","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:47.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:47.762000+08:00","text":"居家是2.8萬。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:47.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:27:48.883000+08:00","text":"你要告訴我到底是怎麼統計出來的。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-26T10:27:48.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:04.098000+08:00","text":"跟委員補充，我們到宅的部分，就是到家裡去服務的保母，大概是3,000人。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:04.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:10.200000+08:00","text":"我不是講保母，居家保母有證照的就有兩、三萬，這個我們都知道。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:10.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:11.200000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:10.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:10.520000+08:00","text":"我在問他的是勞動領域的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:10.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:11.080000+08:00","text":"我們是從相關的職業工會這邊……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:11.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:11.701000+08:00","text":"你們做了最後的衝擊會有多大的評估？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:11.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:12.621000+08:00","text":"這確實是要看到時候申請的量有多少。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:12.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:13.321000+08:00","text":"所以你們都沒有做出具體的衝擊評估？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:30.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:31.326000+08:00","text":"那你們有沒有做了性別影響評估？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:31.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:32.967000+08:00","text":"沒有，因為性平會要求你們補做；那你們做了兒童最佳權益評估了嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:32.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:33.507000+08:00","text":"沒聽過，所以有做嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:33.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:34.208000+08:00","text":"我們相關評估都有在做，是報告還沒寫出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:34.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:34.528000+08:00","text":"都沒有寫出來，那你們看過報告了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:34.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:35.848000+08:00","text":"有期中報告、有final的報告，出來了嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:35.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:36.669000+08:00","text":"沒有最終的版本嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:36.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:28:37.349000+08:00","text":"性別影響評估報告我們會在下一次性平會補送。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:28:55.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:29:06.519000+08:00","text":"你們失業衝擊評估的報告沒有寫出來，性別影響評估的報告也沒有寫出來，兒童最佳利益評估的報告也還沒有寫出來，然後你們就直接開放了。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:29:06.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:29:12.181000+08:00","text":"我現在問你，你都不知道有多大的衝擊，評估的結果都還不知道，你就開放了……","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:29:12.181000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:29:13.181000+08:00","text":"我們不是不知道……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:29:13.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:29:20.202000+08:00","text":"現在我問你，守法是基本的，你知道我們的外勞政策最要緊的是要守住哪一條規定嗎？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:29:23.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:29:23.794000+08:00","text":"本國人的就業權利。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:29:24.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:29:25.635000+08:00","text":"對，我們是以補充為原則，不能夠產生替代，那是就服法第四十二條，那它有沒有產生替代？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:29:25.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:29:59.003000+08:00","text":"我現在告訴你，外籍看護工在長照的領域，絕對、絕對是補充原則，但是在家事幫傭還有顧小孩這個領域，絕對、絕對會有衝擊，產生了替代原則了，這是違法的，我跟你講，這是違法的。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:30:06.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:30:19.395000+08:00","text":"我現在更看不懂，開放外籍幫傭，你們的李健鴻次長說提升生育率、勞參率不是政策目標。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:30:19.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:30:31.425000+08:00","text":"因為托盟、其他的社運團體還有公民團體質疑開放家庭幫傭沒有辦法提高女性的勞參率和生育率，甚至在新加坡生育率是下降的。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:30:35.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:30:45.337000+08:00","text":"當他們這麼說的時候，李健鴻次長說提升生育率跟婦女的勞參率不是我們的政策目標。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:30:46.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:30:50.718000+08:00","text":"部長，我在這裡問你，這如果不是你們的目標，那你們的政策目標是什麼？","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:30:50.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:31:02.842000+08:00","text":"我跟委員說明我們在這個政策裡面最重要的幾個目標，第一個，希望勞工──尤其是雙薪家庭的勞工可以減少離職、安心上班，這是第一個；第二個是家庭減壓。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:31:04.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:31:11.172000+08:00","text":"會因為12歲以下小孩離職的就是女性，沒聽過是男性，幾乎很少啦！也有。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:31:11.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:31:13.355000+08:00","text":"也有爸爸這樣，不過很少啦！","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:31:13.355000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:31:14.355000+08:00","text":"對，比較少。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:31:14.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:31:16.038000+08:00","text":"大多數都是女性啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:31:17.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:31:23.141000+08:00","text":"所以你不要說雙薪家庭，你要說女性，女性的勞參率大幅下降，托盟已經講過N遍了，我們也講過N遍，有兩個階段，一個是為了照顧小孩，再來職場的第二個滑坡就是要照顧孫子，就是幫兒女顧他們的小孩，全部都是顧小孩。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:31:23.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:32:13.531000+08:00","text":"這40年來我們這個照顧的政策，整個公民社會、整個臺灣的政府一步一步的在把這些照顧的責任帶往良好的公共政策，把照顧公共化，我們透過育兒的政策、照顧假的政策、留職停薪的政策，然後有很多人在講未來要實施有薪、無薪的照顧假等等，配套一直進來。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:32:15.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:32:16.172000+08:00","text":"你們不是還有什麼育兒補貼嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:32:16.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:32:16.912000+08:00","text":"政府的現金補貼不是也都進來了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:32:20.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:32:49.100000+08:00","text":"我們一步一步在往這個照顧公共化的方向在前進，而你今天這個政策其實是在鼓勵大家說，不用了，有錢的就自己買，就是照顧家庭化、付費化，然後自己買單，所以整個照顧的政策走回頭路了，對不對？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:32:49.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:32:50.741000+08:00","text":"委員，我可以說明嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:32:50.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:32:52.282000+08:00","text":"你的政策目標是在大開30年的倒車，是往照顧公共化政策的反方向。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:32:52.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:32:55.964000+08:00","text":"比方說育嬰留停的彈性以日請假，這也是我們正在大力推動的，未來也希望能夠擴大研議，包括托育的措施，我們其實對育嬰托育措施這件事情有在大力的推進。","quality":0.47},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:32:56.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:32:57.325000+08:00","text":"如果外籍幫傭進來，我請教你，他可不可以顧小孩？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:33:19.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:33:24.568000+08:00","text":"他當然可以輔助性的參與一些小孩的照料、餵飯等等，這些都是很有可能的。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:33:26.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:33:43.179000+08:00","text":"衛福部社家署的張美美副署長說外傭只會是家長的幫手，家長在的時候是由家長負照顧責任，你們不是說要減輕女性勞工的家庭負擔嗎？","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:33:44.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:33:47.042000+08:00","text":"我都上班一整天，下班以後累死了，我要怎麼顧？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:33:48.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:33:56.797000+08:00","text":"以留住女性勞參率為前提去開放，然後你說家長在的時候就要自己顧，這樣子有減輕女性的負擔嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:33:56.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:34:19.072000+08:00","text":"家長要上班，所以就送到托嬰中心、保母家、托育機構或學校，下班回家以後就自己顧，雖然很累還是要顧，所以就非常累。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:34:19.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:34:29.098000+08:00","text":"但是照你們現在說的這個政策，只要你在家就要顧小孩，這個幫傭是不能顧的，這樣到底是要顧還是不能顧？","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:34:29.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:34:38.464000+08:00","text":"委員，我們不是說不能顧，其實應該是……他的確是一個比較輔助性的，可是我們在評估的過程中也看到有滿多不同的樣態。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:34:38.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:34:46.618000+08:00","text":"我現在就是認為你們在這裡都是睜眼說瞎話，其實都是全部交給外傭顧，老實說，就是全部丟給外傭，現在長照制度裡面說要照顧失能的，誰不知道家事、煮飯等全部都是那個外籍移工要做？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:34:46.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:34:47.078000+08:00","text":"大家都知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:34:47.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:34:48.319000+08:00","text":"你說這個家庭幫傭不是照顧小孩的，「騙肖仔」嘛！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:34:48.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:34:48.599000+08:00","text":"不可能嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:34:49.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:35:31.147000+08:00","text":"而且我要講，你們不是只有這個照顧公共化的政策走回頭路而已，像保母顧小孩都有證照制度，可是你連顧小孩都認為不需要專業，連語言能力都不需要了，讓外傭顧小孩，都不需要顧及他的語言能力了，然後保母要有證照，你們連這個也不用了！","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:35:31.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:35:48.255000+08:00","text":"依據兒少權法，保母、居家式托育服務提供者應向各地方政府主管機關辦理登記，如果沒有登記就不能顧小孩，現在是外籍幫傭就可以顧小孩，這樣是連照顧小孩的托育制度都在走回頭路，難道不是嗎？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:35:48.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:35:49.096000+08:00","text":"我現在講的是你們有做出兒童最佳利益的評估嗎？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:35:49.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:35:51.337000+08:00","text":"在這裡勞動力被取代了，然後托育政策走回頭路，整體三、四十年來努力推動的照顧公共化也走回頭路。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:36:19.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:36:23.895000+08:00","text":"部長，你到底承不承認這樣會對本國就業造成失業衝擊？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:36:28.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:36:30.485000+08:00","text":"委員，我們會有一定的就業政策的支持。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:36:31.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:36:32.147000+08:00","text":"所以你承認是有衝擊嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:36:34.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:36:38.460000+08:00","text":"如果沒有任何配套的話，當然或多或少都會有一點影響。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:36:38.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:36:41.524000+08:00","text":"或多或少會有一點影響是什麼意思？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:36:41.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:36:43.986000+08:00","text":"這就是為什麼我們要定一個配套來減輕衝擊的原因。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:36:44.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:36:53.906000+08:00","text":"在你們的政策公布以後，衛福部的社家署馬上在3月23號叫大家來開會，在3月23日發文，在3月24日就要開會，開了一個因應勞動部外籍幫傭政策的相關配套專案會議，這個會議在講什麼？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:36:53.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:37:18.996000+08:00","text":"這個會議在講勞動部的業務，裡面最核心就是在講居家托育人員多元就業獎勵計畫，所以你們知道會受影響、會直接衝擊到本國就業嘛！","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:37:18.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:37:19.496000+08:00","text":"所以我們要提就業支持跟擴大勞工支持的方案。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:37:19.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:37:20.276000+08:00","text":"我現在要問你，這是無可替代到非開放不可嗎？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:37:39.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:37:41.960000+08:00","text":"不然就會都沒有人做了嗎？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:37:41.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:37:48.686000+08:00","text":"現在顯然就是有人做，請得起幫傭的有錢人現在也是請本國幫傭在做啦！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:37:49.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:37:57.655000+08:00","text":"你跟他說要開放外國幫傭，有錢的人更爽，因為這樣更省錢，可是請不起的人仍然一樣請不起。","quality":0.395},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:37:59.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:38:21.401000+08:00","text":"至於「恐受影響」，不管是顧小孩的、鐘點家事的、到宅煮飯的、到宅打掃的、保母，我請問你，一般人失業可以領失業給付，他們這些人可不可以領？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:38:21.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:38:25.243000+08:00","text":"如果他們被外籍幫傭取代掉了，他們可不可以領失業給付？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:38:25.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:38:26.003000+08:00","text":"如果失業的話，當然都可以領失業給付。亂說！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:38:33.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:38:34.374000+08:00","text":"那是要有雇主的人啦！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:38:34.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:38:35.374000+08:00","text":"對，有雇主就當然可以領失業給付。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:38:34.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:38:35.756000+08:00","text":"這一些人有雇主嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:38:35.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:38:53.213000+08:00","text":"不要不食人間煙火，在你們這個開放政策實施後，就業會受到衝擊、會失業、會被取代掉的人都是投保在職業工會，哪一個人是有雇主？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:38:54.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:39:03.837000+08:00","text":"委員，我們有評估過，第一個，這其實不是一個失業的邏輯，基本上，假設都沒有配套的話，他可能確實會有一些服務的時數減少……","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:39:04.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:39:04.757000+08:00","text":"那你的配套是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:39:04.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:39:05.377000+08:00","text":"你的配套就是拿就業安定基金給獎勵金，不是嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:39:05.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:39:23.824000+08:00","text":"你們3月24號召集大家開會，你們評估就是會有8,000人失業，所以計畫的錢就來自於就業安定基金嘛！","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:39:24.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:39:29.285000+08:00","text":"就是你們評估會失業所以要給獎勵金，你們就是要給獎勵金嘛！","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:39:29.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:39:36.447000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，就業安定基金並非只是因為他失業，而是包括他勞務上面的各種需求，還包括他的培訓。","quality":0.683},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:39:36.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:39:37.728000+08:00","text":"我們都知道，還再去轉職訓練啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:39:37.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:39:45.152000+08:00","text":"總而言之，如果你沒有開放外籍幫傭，就不會衝擊到他的就業，他不會失業，他都用不著你的錢，如果可以自己賺錢，幹嘛還需要去領你的錢啊！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:39:45.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:39:45.413000+08:00","text":"你能夠給多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:39:45.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:40:20.864000+08:00","text":"再來，這一些都是從業人員居多，包括保母，包括家事服務工、鐘點的服務工、到宅煮飯的，很多都是本來就是二度就業的，而且都是婦女的從業人員，你讓他們在這裡再失業一次，你覺得他們還會再轉業嗎？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:40:20.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:40:30.767000+08:00","text":"不是中高齡轉業，是高齡再轉業，大家都知道轉職再轉職，越轉越往下，往下面的地方流。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:40:38.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:40:50.655000+08:00","text":"你一邊說不會被取代掉，不是失業、不是被取代掉，然後你在這裡又一邊說要規劃他們轉職、補助，還有其他就業訓練、轉職訓練，你剛剛還講說要有其他的，所以你的意思其實就是……到底承不承認對本國的從業人員真的造成失業衝擊？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:40:50.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:40:52.876000+08:00","text":"明明就是失業衝擊，你在這裡還要講說沒有、不是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:41:07.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:41:12.495000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個，當然如果都沒有任何配套的話，確實或多或少會有影響……","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:41:12.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:41:16.439000+08:00","text":"你的配套就是失業以後，給他們……用配套來承擔嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:41:16.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:41:24.126000+08:00","text":"不是，委員，我們在就業上面的支持，其實更多的是希望能夠拓展他勞務的機會，而不一定是在他失業以後……","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:41:24.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:41:24.626000+08:00","text":"拓展他勞務的機會，就是讓這個市場變大。是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:41:31.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:41:38.577000+08:00","text":"好，那我問你，如果這個市場有需求、有能力負擔，我會早不請、晚不請，你說現在找便宜的，真的有這麼便宜嗎？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:41:38.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:41:48.503000+08:00","text":"如果可以請鐘點外勞，我早就想要請了，我幹嘛等到你開放？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:41:48.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:41:54.185000+08:00","text":"你說因為開放以後會比較便宜，你一定說比較便宜，所以他就請得起嘛，你的理由是這樣嘛！","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:41:54.185000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:41:55.185000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，並不是這樣子，第一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:41:54.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:43:05.910000+08:00","text":"我現在要告訴你，我們當時……而且你也同意，在國民黨修法要開放80歲以上免巴氏量表可以請外籍看護的時候，我們當時就講，你也這樣講，整個外籍移工的就業市場供給遠遠小於需求，當你開放了顧小孩、做家事的幫傭，如果不是144萬的需求，算五分之一就好了，二十幾萬的需求，就跟你在評估80歲開放外籍看護一樣，我們評估二十幾萬人有這個需求就好了，同樣的邏輯，我不要講說全部就馬上沒工，但外籍移工們寧可去當家事幫傭，寧可去顧小孩，誰要去顧長照的、失能的、重度癱瘓的？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:43:06.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:43:15.390000+08:00","text":"沒有，如果移工可以選擇轉換雇主，他一定馬上說要換去顧小孩，誰要顧癱瘓在那裡的？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:43:17.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:43:22.563000+08:00","text":"而且這個市場供給小於需求，所以需求面你開放了，需求面擴大了，那麼市場的價格就會上漲了，大家都知道價格已經上漲了，還沒有開放外籍家庭幫傭的時候就已經上漲。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:43:22.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:43:24.345000+08:00","text":"我再問你一件事，開放外籍幫傭要不要適用勞基法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:43:24.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:43:24.705000+08:00","text":"你可不可以回答我？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:43:43.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:43:52.546000+08:00","text":"這些在看顧長照的都不用適用勞基法，沒有得到勞基法有關勞動權益、勞動條件的保障。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:43:53.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:44:01.831000+08:00","text":"我再問你，看顧小孩、家庭幫傭的這些外籍移工、外籍幫傭要不要適用勞基法？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:44:02.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:44:03.092000+08:00","text":"你在這裡回答我。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:44:03.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:44:07.275000+08:00","text":"目前就法規上面，家事移工是沒有適用勞基法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:44:08.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:44:17.469000+08:00","text":"他是因為長照，那是政策上的管制，我問你，現在家庭幫傭你還是要繼續讓他不適用，因為他適用了，勞動力就沒那麼便宜了。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:44:23.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:44:52.463000+08:00","text":"那大家要問你，你以前就知道的，在家事服務的領域裡面、在私領域裡面長期都有勞動條件上的不公平，甚至剝削的情形，你以前當立委的時候也在這裡撻伐過，你也講過的，這個事情你卻還是要維持不適用勞基法，你覺得這樣子糾紛會不會更多？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:44:54.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:45:02.774000+08:00","text":"我跟大家講，你不要以為不適用勞基法比較便宜，沒有，因為吵的人就會愈來愈多，說我不想顧躺在那裡、失能的，我要顧小孩比較輕鬆，或家事幫傭的，你不讓我走，我就每天跟你吵架。","quality":0.658},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:45:03.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:45:52.082000+08:00","text":"這樣的衝突，就把照顧的責任丟給家庭自行去買單，家裡面有失能老人請外籍幫傭照顧的，外籍幫傭跟雇主每天在吵架，他自己去承擔，情緒也是他們自己負擔，然後政府雙手一攤說這個跟我無關，你都不用去煩惱這個，政府什麼都不用做，反正吵架的是雇主跟外籍看護以及失能的被照顧者，現在這樣的吵架會吵得更嚴重。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:45:52.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:46:12.947000+08:00","text":"我在這裡可以告訴大家，因為你又開放了可以顧小孩，大家更想轉職，但我們的法規規定不可以轉換雇主，要雙方合意才可以，所以他就每天跟雇主吵，吵到有一天雇主受不了，終於就說：好吧，放你走吧！","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:46:15.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:46:22.231000+08:00","text":"請問未來長照的、失能的、長期躺在那裡、重度的，誰要來顧？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:46:22.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:46:25.513000+08:00","text":"外籍幫傭、外籍移工真的源源不絕嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:46:25.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:46:25.753000+08:00","text":"部長，你回答我。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:46:30.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:46:46.339000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個，在外籍看護工或外籍幫傭的部分，即便這是在家庭裡面的權利，我們其實都希望，也透過相關的雇主手冊或各種方式盡力地來做維護……","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:46:47.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:47:06.371000+08:00","text":"你現在當部長很會當，當官也很會當，你現在說話跟以前當立委都不一樣，其實你如果誠實地告訴社會，這個衝擊有多大，但我準備怎麼做，這對兒童的權益會有什麼影響，那你們還會怎麼做，這個對性別的影響是什麼，我準備怎麼接起來。","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:47:06.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:47:07.752000+08:00","text":"這樣的話，我們還可以在心裡面想說，至少這是一個負責任的態度。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:47:07.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:47:08.192000+08:00","text":"委員，我還沒講完，第一個，對於他可能會在……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:47:08.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:47:26.468000+08:00","text":"你現在都在講空話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:47:26.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:47:36.111000+08:00","text":"針對本國工作者可能的工作影響的部分，我們會跟衛福部這邊來擬一整套的計畫來支持本國工作者在勞務市場的開拓……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:47:37.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:47:39.912000+08:00","text":"老實說，你們決定什麼，衛福部就怎麼做了啦！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:47:39.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:47:40.713000+08:00","text":"我現在要說，衛福部也是這樣啦。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:47:41.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:48:16.870000+08:00","text":"部長，兒童托育服務法不用立得這麼嚴了，整個法還在立法院協商，我每次來都審到三更半夜、開會開好、開滿，說要嚴格管制保母、說居家托兒要怎麼規範，一邊高強度規範托育，在這裡立法要高強度管理，一邊卻要放寬沒有受訓練的外籍幫傭來育兒，這個政府兩個政策在那裡打架，所以說我們的兒童托育服務法還需要這麼嚴格嗎？","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:48:16.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:48:17.930000+08:00","text":"還沒立法嘛，還在審嘛、還在協商嘛，不然就通通都開放，哪有這個道理？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:48:18.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:49:01.600000+08:00","text":"對本國提供托育服務的人這麼高強度的管制，要求這麼多，要受訓、考證照、登記審核，要層層把關才能夠提供托育服務；但是外籍幫傭連語言溝通都有問題，沒有相關訓練、資格訓練，然後本國人的資格門檻要被檢查、被高度要求，外籍幫傭通通都不用，我從來沒有聽過說本籍的比外籍的還更嚴格，通常大家都是抗議外籍的比本籍管得更嚴格，我們現在反而變了，現在是本籍的管得嚴、外籍的管得寬，這沒有違反兒童的最佳利益嗎？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:49:01.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:49:01.780000+08:00","text":"還要從嚴立法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:49:21.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:49:22.938000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:49:24.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:49:25.081000+08:00","text":"顧小孩的部分是這樣子。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:49:25.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:50:13.811000+08:00","text":"再來，在這種狀況裡面有關性別平等的部分，事實上，我們臺灣整體社會，包括政府把公共照顧服務往前推這麼多，已經推這麼多了，我們也希望透過公共政策繼續解決家務勞動還有育兒性別不平等的問題，當時政府一路走來都被迫，但也始終站在往前推進的立場，結果現在你開放了這種外籍幫傭，你不願意再繼續改善你的公共政策，面對資源、制度、人力多方面缺失的問題，你用這種病急亂投醫的態度！","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:50:17.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:50:21.194000+08:00","text":"委員，公共托育或者是托育政策我們還是正在大力的做，包括……","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:50:22.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:50:31.119000+08:00","text":"你現在選擇一個最便宜的、最階級化的、最可能產生剝削的，然後最不願意致力於改善公共照顧服務普及化的……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:50:31.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:50:38.883000+08:00","text":"委員，包括企業托育的推動，我們也正在大力的做，我們也大力支持企業投入托育相關的政策裡面，包括公共托育的部分，這都是一直在做、甚至更大力做的部分。","quality":0.646},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:50:39.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:50:50.127000+08:00","text":"那我問你，你也說我們在做長照，然後你一直開放外籍看護，有外籍看護我還需要去使用你的長照嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:50:50.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:50:52.288000+08:00","text":"我還在乎你的長照嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:50:52.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:50:58.620000+08:00","text":"我有家庭幫傭顧小孩，我還需要你的公共托育嗎？所以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:50:59.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:51:04.344000+08:00","text":"委員，我們訪談到很多人表達需要外籍幫傭，而他一樣會把小孩送托。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:51:04.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:51:05.405000+08:00","text":"我現在跟你講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:51:06.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:51:07.146000+08:00","text":"他一樣會把小孩送托。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:51:08.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:51:17.614000+08:00","text":"當政府選擇一種最階級化、最可能產生剝削的做法，而不願致力於改善公共……你現在這樣是有辦法買得起的人才能夠這樣子，那買不起的人呢？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:51:23.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:51:35.934000+08:00","text":"我們講公共照顧要服務的其實正是那個買不起的，所以公共照顧的品質要普及化、價格要可近性，為什麼要可近性？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:51:37.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:51:43.689000+08:00","text":"服務的可近性是大家都知道，因為一般人沒有辦法有那種能力嘛。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:51:44.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:52:10+08:00","text":"而你現在開放家庭幫傭也不是一般人有辦法的啦，這是在鞏固有錢人才能享有的育兒喘息特權，如果在這裡……我們不要講特權，抱歉，我更正，我講錯了，這是鞏固有錢才買得起的，走回頭路，有錢的自己買工、沒錢的自求多福，這是家庭自行買單。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:52:10.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:52:45.293000+08:00","text":"但我們一直以來都想把國家、政府拉進來，減少女性的家務負擔，為什麼不是在制度面上設計男性共同來參與家務，或者是盤點0到12歲公共托育與課後照顧資源、減少資源落差、改進服務品質，或是我們一直在講把育嬰假變成照顧假，然後開放到8歲，雖然以小時計算你們有了，但你們現在只到3歲。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:52:46.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:52:53.976000+08:00","text":"委員，這部分我們研議要擴大，其實更多的男性已經投入了，這部分的做法跟政策一直在往前推進。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:52:54.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:52:56.477000+08:00","text":"甚至是推出完善的有薪家庭照顧假。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:52:56.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:53:03.299000+08:00","text":"你們現在的狀況就是，第一個，不願意重新分配；第二個，政府的資源不願意再投入，所以你現在選一個最簡單的，開放有錢的可以買，社會的反彈壓力小……","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:53:08.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:53:13.523000+08:00","text":"委員，政府的資源也願意投入，政府的資源跟政策一樣……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:53:14.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:53:56.422000+08:00","text":"然後需求就會下降，如果開放二十幾萬人可以請家庭幫傭，可能就分擔了他對於育兒或是家務的辛苦，那反彈的聲音就降低了，要求公共政策提供的聲浪也會下降，所以你們是直接開放讓高收入的家庭向全球、南方國家購買廉價的勞動力，以照顧私有化的手段來規避照顧資源分配不均導致的社會不平等，以上是團體認為的不負責任，真的是不負責任！","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:53:56.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:54:12.348000+08:00","text":"委員，在友善職場的部分，包括制度的部分，我們現在也在擴大、正在研議以日請的育嬰留停，希望往前再推進；而資源的投入也更多，包括托育的資源、包括企業托育的部分，我們也都是更大力在做，這部分不會改變，而且只會做得更多，這個方向是影響不會改變的。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:54:12.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:54:27.264000+08:00","text":"開放到8歲、以小時計算，我跟你講，我們這個育嬰留停合併計算進來……","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:54:27.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:54:28.625000+08:00","text":"我們目前就是希望……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:54:29.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:54:30.406000+08:00","text":"天數都一樣，你們都不願意了。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:54:31.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:54:42.795000+08:00","text":"3歲的部分我們現在正朝擴大的方向在研議，這件事情其實我在幾週前已經跟大家報告過了，目前就是往這個方向在研議中，但這個要修法。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:54:45.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:01.819000+08:00","text":"我現在就告訴你，你們在這種狀況裡面一直研議，你們所有東西都是研議，包括我剛剛講的衝擊你們也說研議，你還沒上任以前也說在研議，然後研議這麼多年通通都沒有，你現在再告訴我們會繼續研議、我們朝向更大幅的開放。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:01.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:02.079000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:02.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:02.339000+08:00","text":"你們現在的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:02.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:02.639000+08:00","text":"委員，包括剛剛講到以日請的照顧假……","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:02.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:22.095000+08:00","text":"我們要以小時啊，整體時數沒有變、天數沒有變、價格也沒有增加預算，只有讓你開放成幾個小時都不願意了！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:23.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:28.812000+08:00","text":"委員，這不是不願意，我們是一步一步在往前做，之前是3歲以前，那我們會把它擴大……","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:29.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:43.143000+08:00","text":"對嘛，所以讓照顧友善程度可以大幅改善的部分你們是牛步化，然後讓有錢家庭自己去買工、沒錢自求多福的馬上開放！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:43.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:44.024000+08:00","text":"委員，沒有牛步化。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:44.024000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:45.024000+08:00","text":"你們就是牛步化。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:44.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:49.809000+08:00","text":"目前以日請的部分才上路兩個月，我們就在研議把它擴大了，3歲以下、以日請的上路兩個月我們就把它擴大。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:51.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:51.458000+08:00","text":"我們呼籲了幾年啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:51.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:51.778000+08:00","text":"第一個，年紀要到幾歲？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:51.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:53.520000+08:00","text":"很多職場的滑坡、勞動力的滑坡就是如此，小孩不是只有讓他長大、讓他吃飯、讓他讀書，要陪伴，或是生病了要到學校去。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:53.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:55:53.760000+08:00","text":"這是我們在考量的。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:55:53.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:56:31.428000+08:00","text":"有薪家庭照顧假你給不了，雇主也不願意負擔，政府也不可能編列這個預算，那這個育嬰留停的天數都沒有動，我們就友善讓它可以到8歲、以小時計，你們通通都講我們繼續研議，你們說你們開放到天了。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:56:31.428000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:56:33.149000+08:00","text":"委員，這不是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:56:33.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:56:37.392000+08:00","text":"黃維琛在那裡啦，他知道，這樣一路走來已經很多年了！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:56:39.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:56:41.054000+08:00","text":"不叫牛步化那叫什麼？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:56:42.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:56:44.918000+08:00","text":"目前上路才兩、三個月，我們現在希望把它推到……","quality":0.474},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:56:45.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:56:52.005000+08:00","text":"那是我們推動很多年以後你才正式給我們的第一次回應，在你上路以前我們推動很多年啦！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:56:52.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:56:52.505000+08:00","text":"是啊，所以我們接下來希望要……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:56:52.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:56:53.726000+08:00","text":"對啊，政府是被推動的，不是政府主動的！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:57:03.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:57:09.596000+08:00","text":"希望讓這個政策的擴大跟彈性都能夠再往前進，我們非常非常認真的看待這個訴求。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬：我們很務實的跟你講","start":"2026-03-26T10:57:11.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:57:24.555000+08:00","text":"會提升婦女勞動參與率，然後很務實跟你講：不增加雇主的支出、總時數沒有變、彈性化，我就不曉得你們是在……試辦的時候你還沒上任，試辦的時候黃維琛找輪班、三班制的去試辦還失敗，因為三班制的一個蘿蔔一個坑，當然失敗！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬：我們很務實的跟你講","start":"2026-03-26T10:57:24.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:57:26.375000+08:00","text":"那是因為你上任，我承認因為你上任，所以你push他要先試辦、再試辦一次，友善的直接上路。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:57:26.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:57:26.775000+08:00","text":"現在不是試辦，現在已經正式上路了。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:57:26.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:57:27.035000+08:00","text":"對，現在是以天計。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:57:46.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:57:48.740000+08:00","text":"是，已經正式上路了，而且成效不錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:57:49.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:57:50.702000+08:00","text":"當然，有需求啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:57:51.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:57:57.626000+08:00","text":"我們跟你講如果要更友善的話，年齡要擴大，然後時數就是以小時計。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:57:57.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:02.609000+08:00","text":"我們目前有往擴大的方向規劃跟研議。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:02.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:21.431000+08:00","text":"這個東西只是一小小步，還用自己育嬰留停的假、按天數，那個只是我們勞工自己的天數，你現在這一個就是拿勞工自己的權益來向我邀功，不需要，只是希望你們彈性化！","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:21.431000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:22.431000+08:00","text":"委員，這不是邀功。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:22.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:25.334000+08:00","text":"但我們希望的是，政府應該做的更多！當然。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:27.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:32.620000+08:00","text":"而更多並不是你開放外籍幫傭……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:32.620000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:33.620000+08:00","text":"這絕對不是邀功。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:32.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:44.508000+08:00","text":"那個是有錢人才買得起的，那個是家庭自己買工，對於買不起的人，這個政策有什麼可近性？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:45.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:47.738000+08:00","text":"對於買不起的人，這個政策與他有何干？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:48.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:49.619000+08:00","text":"委員，所以不同的對象……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:51.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:53.402000+08:00","text":"你看，我跟你講這個對誰最有利？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:53.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:55.423000+08:00","text":"仲介業！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:57.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:58:58.826000+08:00","text":"我的朋友馬上就LINE來了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-26T10:58:58.826000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T10:59:00.467000+08:00","text":"淑芬委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:59:00.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:59:14.077000+08:00","text":"第一時間宣布開放政策的時候仲介打電話來，你看這個：我今天接到電話，家裡有12歲小孩可以請家事照顧外勞。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:59:17.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:59:28.190000+08:00","text":"仲介馬上一一打電話給家庭有12歲以下小孩的父母，很多人接到，仲介等著要接！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:59:30.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:59:35.251000+08:00","text":"所以我第一時間就回復他，沒有人要照顧老人了怎麼辦？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:59:35.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:59:36.191000+08:00","text":"重度失能的老人怎麼辦？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:59:36.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:59:47.928000+08:00","text":"大家都想要家庭幫傭了，那外籍移工不願意照顧老人怎麼辦？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:59:47.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:59:51.029000+08:00","text":"這不是你的業務，這是衛福部的業務！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:59:51.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:59:53.970000+08:00","text":"沒關係，吵架也不是你們承擔，是家裡面的雇主要承擔，所以現在國家是怎樣？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-03-26T10:59:53.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:59:54.830000+08:00","text":"雙手一攤，有錢的去買一買，用這個就好了。謝謝。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-26T10:59:54.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-26T10:59:55.030000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝淑芬委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-26T10:59:55.530000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-26T11:00:01.244286+08:00","text":"待會廖偉翔委員質詢完畢後，我們休息5分鐘，謝謝。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}