{"error":false,"id":["167977"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":167977,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167977","日期":"2026-03-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-19-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-03-26T10:05:01+08:00","結束時間":"2026-03-26T10:13:33+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:32","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4e3ac34bec22616baf1db4e8dc12ee02557c21d93b3021e0bfff30f6c757e0e6d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:05:01 - 10:13:33","會議時間":"2026-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":2.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.5915937500000004,"end":4.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.223468750000002,"end":30.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.13159375,"end":33.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.713468750000004,"end":48.158468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.18471875,"end":42.758468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.673468750000005,"end":63.210968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.710968750000006,"end":49.947218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.210968750000006,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.48034375,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.77971875,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.43784375,"end":79.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.24221875,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.25909375,"end":85.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.68909375,"end":83.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.40159375,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.92846875000001,"end":95.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.61096875000001,"end":98.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.72909375,"end":96.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.44596875,"end":98.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.46284375,"end":100.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.84221875,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.99284375,"end":150.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.12346875,"end":137.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.26471875000001,"end":156.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.10784375,"end":160.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.67659375000002,"end":161.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.96346875,"end":166.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.25409375,"end":166.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.46909375,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.97534375,"end":173.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.97846875000002,"end":176.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.44221875000002,"end":178.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.75409375,"end":180.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.92659375000002,"end":188.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.69346875000002,"end":199.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.33784375000002,"end":196.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.86909375000002,"end":201.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.44284375,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.92346875,"end":206.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.69909375,"end":218.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.98596875,"end":207.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.71409375000002,"end":232.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.83846875,"end":242.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.91284375,"end":253.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.49346875,"end":259.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.09221875000003,"end":257.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.65721875,"end":260.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.10846875000004,"end":264.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.90096875,"end":269.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.16596875,"end":275.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.70096875,"end":275.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.17346875000004,"end":291.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.22596875,"end":291.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.46221875000003,"end":325.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.24159375,"end":340.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.58534375000005,"end":346.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.78284375000004,"end":400.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.84596875000005,"end":400.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.53784375000004,"end":408.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.58721875000003,"end":434.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.19096875,"end":439.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.62909375000004,"end":456.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.61784375,"end":457.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.86659375000005,"end":466.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.57846875,"end":473.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.30721875,"end":503.74971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.20534375000005,"end":505.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.28534375000004,"end":509.58846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.74471875000006,"end":509.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.58846875000006,"end":509.62221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.62221875000006,"end":510.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.67284375,"end":510.55034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.792,"end":2.397,"text":"主席我想請代理主委來請代理主委"},{"start":10.493,"end":19.635,"text":"陳主委委員長早那現在呢中東戰火未歇而且呢不曉得還要再打多久那連帶影響國內物價現在菜市場一斤透明的塑膠袋已經從20元漲到25元這件事情陳主委知道嗎我知道"},{"start":31.198,"end":47.593,"text":"那你現在有什麼因應的辦法呢我們已經有進入初步先去了解一下整個市場的狀況包含塑膠袋的類型價格等等各方面資訊那因為我也知道現在經濟部已經在做市場全面的盤整我現在就問你你不要講經濟部我現在就問你公平會"},{"start":51.716,"end":78.034,"text":"現在有一些都缺貨了 那代理主委既然有注意到 你們有去主動調查說是不是有惡意囤積 或者是有哄抬物價的這個監督機制呢從公平會的角度來看 如果是聯合的惡意拒絕出貨這個就是構成聯合性貨是啊 你有去查嗎我現在就嚴重懷疑說 公平會你是人手不足嗎我們不管問你什麼 你都是被動的都沒有任何事是值得你主動去調查嗎"},{"start":79.675,"end":100.09,"text":"像這個塑膠我們就主動有去調查只是因為現在經濟不好所以你們現在已經主動在調查主動在了解那你們現在有任何調查的跡象或結果嗎現在還在了解跟調查當中就像剛剛跟大家講我們調查的重點還是在於這個有沒有聯合具體的出貨這個需要有點時間來蒐集是不是有這樣的事證我的意思是說如果你"},{"start":100.951,"end":127.174,"text":"主動調查可能還要再加上一些積極度因為如果你沒有迅速的掌握狀況的話等你調查完成這個事情搞不好也已經結束了船過水無痕所以我也希望說陳主委我想每一個委員都對你充滿期待希望說公平會能夠扮演好公平會存在的意義而不是一個只是好像買保險的單位"},{"start":128.675,"end":149.998,"text":"就是有也可以沒有也可以你知道嗎所以呢我現在再提醒一下主委請問有注意到說日本的衛生紙啊之前就有因為民眾在網路上PO文然後引發恐慌那本席擔心類似的事件假設發生在台灣公平會有沒有什麼對策呢"},{"start":151.451,"end":160.737,"text":"衛生紙如果有聯合烘台價格當然這是公民會要去調查跟了解的那這是不是有 假設這有沒有涉及不實的這個烘台價格啊"},{"start":161.744,"end":180.547,"text":"烘台價格就是烘台價格但如果他有不實我不曉得什麼叫不實的所以你的意思是說這不歸公平會管沒有沒有我剛剛講過聯合烘台聯合定價這個當然是公平會要管那不實廣告是不實廣告所以就是你的意思是說像這種引發恐慌的事情呢"},{"start":181.957,"end":205.664,"text":"不歸公平匯管是這個意思嗎就是說衛生紙搶扣沒有衛生紙這都不歸你管沒有引發恐慌如果是基於業者集體之間的一種杯葛或是拒絕從事交易特別囤貨聯合起來做的話這當然是公平匯要處理的聯合問題那你有密切在觀察這個事情嗎我們都隨時都有在觀察這關於民生物資我們平常都會注意到那個價格的波動"},{"start":207.004,"end":231.7,"text":"其实我也还蛮担心公平会的不管问你们什么你们感觉都好像在另一个平行世界里面就是没有办法理解我们在跟你沟通的一些内容那我再问就是前年Uber宣布要以9.5亿美元收购Full Panda台湾的业务那时候公平会耗时了200"},{"start":233.462,"end":253.019,"text":"25天那最後以防止壟斷唯有禁止了雙方結合結果這個禮拜呢換成東南亞的外送龍頭Grab要以6億收購Full Panda那從公平會專業的角度來看這兩起收購案相同與不相同之處在哪裡呢"},{"start":253.539,"end":263.928,"text":"因為這個案子還沒送進本會所以我現在初步問你們初步了解就是說有什麼一樣跟不一樣最大的不一樣是上個案子如果結合完成以後事實上就會高達九成"},{"start":264.943,"end":282.917,"text":"那這個案子完成結合以後還是維持兩家大的外送平台存在所以這是它最大的在市場結構上的不同如果真的要去看它的不同的地方的話是但是呢本席要提醒公平會注意一個關鍵背景Uber早在2018就將東南亞的業務賣給了Grab然後換取了一定比例的持股我想可能主委我知道你知道嘛"},{"start":293.024,"end":319.046,"text":"你清楚的話那你覺得說直到今天Uber能持有Grab約13%的股份是最大的股東喔換句話說Uber雖然沒有親自收購成功但是卻由他持股的公司來買而且這個持股公司他還是最大的股東我並沒有說有任何預設的立場我只是希望說那公平會這一次"},{"start":320.827,"end":345.296,"text":"會怎麼樣判定Grab的營業獨立性然後會考量這層關係嗎我想分析的架構大概跟上次那個案子那個整個法律的架構是一樣的那這個案子我想剛剛委員所談到的那個持股的部分這個也是我們後續在審查會去判斷的不過附帶跟委員講一下這個13%是他持股但是持股對公司的控制跟影響因為他持股的類型不太一樣"},{"start":346.376,"end":358.804,"text":"我現在只是在提醒你所以你有在考量這層關係就非常好那我們再深入看Grab跟Uber 2018那次交易當時新加坡的這個競爭與消費委員會就對他們的交易案重罰了1300萬的新幣那兩家公司呢"},{"start":367.049,"end":375.539,"text":"成為利益共同體導致競爭誘因消失了新加坡隨即出現了運費上漲 獎勵縮水的狀況所以我也希望說公平會要審慎考察"},{"start":383.048,"end":408.379,"text":"當然我不是有任何預設立場我希望公平會在整個審查的過程當中要廣納各界的意見設想各種可能必須針對消費者的權益跟市場的結構做出最有利的決定請教主委能做到嗎我想這個剛剛委員提到這一點都是我們在審查過程會去注意到了就跟如同上一次的案子一樣我們一定會多聽各方面的意見"},{"start":409.656,"end":432.691,"text":"那現在本席擔心的就是說假設未來Foodpanda真的被Grab收購了你們也同意了它的收購哪一天Grab在台灣也採取相同的模式宣布這個退出台灣市場然後把業務交給Uber那那個時候台灣的外送市場不就徹底失去了競爭只剩下一家獨大公平會有考慮過這個可能性嗎"},{"start":434.252,"end":455.801,"text":"如果這個可能性發生 那就變成是回到兩家變一家的情況嗎是啊 所以這是一個簡單的經濟邏輯如果兩個競爭對手他背後的大股東其實是重疊的那他們在市場上就不會有強烈的動力去彼此競爭他們不需要聯合漲價喔他們只需要聯合不促銷 不折扣"},{"start":456.721,"end":477.009,"text":"是不是無法可罰呢這個就回到委員剛剛關切那個13%的問題那個13%的控制有沒有辦法強到讓對方完全亦步亦趨配合他的作為所以呢我就想請主委一定要針對這種有可能隱性的聯合行為喔做密切的觀察那最後提醒主委就是"},{"start":477.549,"end":504.466,"text":"根據資策會的統計2025年曾使用外送服務的消費者比例大概是有上千萬人在使用這個外送服務那公平會作為市場的守護者那本系也期許你們的決定可以做到店家有生意消費者權益有保護然後平台能夠維持競爭的多元局面有信心嗎"},{"start":506.048,"end":508.671,"text":"委員關切的問題都是我們在審查裡面會特別注意的"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}