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莊部長對於土地的撥用大概最近有很多的疑慮"},{"start":113.211,"end":127.982,"text":"像民眾的話他會認為說為什麼他這個是選址是在這個特定的農業區可是呢我們卻用這個促餐法"},{"start":128.382,"end":145.387,"text":"第15條就撥給這個南投縣政府來做使用當然我也有求證國產署確確實實就是引用這一條可是民間卻是質疑這土地的撥用是有問題的為什麼我們不會我們不是引用這個國有財產"},{"start":147.168,"end":162.806,"text":"法的第38條其中裡面有提到非公用財產類至不動產各級政府機關為公務或公共所需得申請撥用可是呢它有一個狀況是不得辦理撥用的那就是"},{"start":163.286,"end":176.737,"text":"不合區域計畫或都市計畫土地使用分區規定著因為它這裡是特定農業區為什麼當初南投縣政府在申請這個要撥用的時候我們不是用國有財產法第38條而是用畜產法第15條請問部長回答"},{"start":182.522,"end":198.789,"text":"跟委員報告各級政府不管是中央或地方政府他只要為了公共或公務需要的話都可以申請撥用國有土地那一般是適用國產法第38條如果說他要走促參的模式來做後續的公共建設"},{"start":199.549,"end":219.303,"text":"那他可以走促參法的第15條來辦理撥用那不管是國參法或者是促參法他辦理撥用的時候碰到的是非都市土地的話那依照內政部的解釋是可以先辦撥用而不需要先辦理用地的變更但是如果這個土地撥去以後他後續要做用地的變更或還"},{"start":220.583,"end":248.839,"text":"环境影响评估或等等开发许可他依然要走程序来走如果这里面的这些条件没有办法成就的话让他的播用的用途没有办法落实这个时候就可以废止播用把这个土地重新返回到国有财产署来所以这个播用基本上是让他就是说他要去走后面程序先完成的这一个部分那后面的程序都不会受影响都还是一样要去做他的用地的变更也好"},{"start":249.859,"end":271.809,"text":"環境影響評估都必須要去落實的我想請教部長他當初南投縣政府在用這個出產法第15條來申請這個撥用的時候他那時候就是很明確就是說我就是要在這裡設置粉化爐是這樣子嗎是 他在撥用的時候必須要把它要做什麼樣的用途在撥用計畫裡面要明白的敘述"},{"start":273.058,"end":299.384,"text":"所以当时他在申请这个的时候你们不会去考虑其他的因素吗比如说他是特定农业区也许他不适合你们是不会去考虑这些其他的因素你只要说他符合这个法条他只要符合这出产法第15条你们就来办理其他的你们都不考虑是不是在非都市土地的部分并不会要求这个但是他后续剥去以后他要做这个用途依然要按照"},{"start":300.154,"end":312.177,"text":"土地使用管制的規定以及環評以及開發許可等等各項條件都必須要具備他才能夠用如果這些條件不具備他沒有辦法用的時候土地就會辦理廢紙撥用交回到國有財產署"},{"start":313.288,"end":340.997,"text":"好那這樣子聽起來的話說實在的財政部這邊我們好像要尋求財政部這邊的協助看來是沒有希望我想請教農業部我們陳部長因為這個焚化爐的預定是在特定農業區它涉及的是2000公頃的這一個茶產業所以農業部一定要有態度那剛剛我們莊部長已經說了可能要等到後續的時候當然我們知道聽起來是撥用"},{"start":341.457,"end":369.451,"text":"不一定可以直接興建嘛那這個部分的話我想請問因為我不曉得納豆縣政府到目前為止它所謂的計畫書有沒有送到中央那到底如果說這個計畫送到中央之後呢我們農業部要如何把關呢它是有它這是攸關於全國首搖飲產業的未來我在想農業部一定要有態度我想請教部長這部分後面如何把關"},{"start":370.671,"end":393.244,"text":"好謝謝委員我想第一個就是土地的撥用不代表就可以農地變更這是非常明確的因為他會到農業部這邊申請對根據相關的農發條例如果他是特定特農區的話他原則上是不可以變更的但是如果說他是做相關的公共事業的時候公共事業興建的時候我們會針對"},{"start":394.805,"end":411.058,"text":"他提出來這個公共事業是不是具有合理性必要性跟不可替代性我舉個例子這三個要件去審查他是不是符合公共建設的要地不可替代性的意思就是說今天他新建粉化粉化廠"},{"start":411.798,"end":427.653,"text":"那是不是說整個南投縣的粉化垃圾的處理是不是一定要興建成為一個粉化廠的地方這個是部分這第一個說明第二個說明就是就農業部的立場因為他在這個區域想要興建粉化爐"},{"start":428.554,"end":444.86,"text":"但是這個周遭的地區裡面我們也盤點了就像委員所說的他的茶是大概是兩千兩百多公頃那整個南投縣六千四百多公頃的茶是佔全國茶產區的一半五至三左右所以他是非常重要的一個茶產區"},{"start":445.76,"end":470.825,"text":"而這個茶產區又特別是我們商業用茶的基底的主要的原料佔了將近90%商業用茶佔了90%所以它後續的影響會很大第三個更重要就是說在這個地區裡面它是石斧的一個所謂的生態的一個熱區那如果說興建的時候那影響到相關的石斧的這些熱區的時候"},{"start":472.665,"end":495.626,"text":"可能就會回到我剛才一開始講的我們會做三個審查合理性、必要性跟不可替代性以這樣的一個情勢的時候未來目前他沒有送審未來審查的時候他第一個要通過環評環評跟農地變更是平行去審的但是環評在審查的時候一定會徵求我們農業部的意見我們農業部的意見剛才已經表達非常清楚"},{"start":498.268,"end":509.441,"text":"那同樣的就是環平那邊即使過了進到我們真正的農地變更的時候我們還是會再次審查它的合理性、必要性跟不可替代性"},{"start":510.256,"end":538.609,"text":"所以目前來講的話當然我們環團也好或是當地民眾都希望現階段我們中央能夠就立即的阻止這件事情繼續發展下去比如說因為他可能還有很多的流程要跑我想請教一下我們中央政府在這個階段有什麼可以著力的地方嗎還是要像部長所講的一定要等他送到計畫來進入審查會然後我們再來做審查提意見"},{"start":540.05,"end":550.656,"text":"針對種種的因素我們提出我們的意見我們只能在那個階段的時候做點什麼事現階段您認為以農業部來講的話我們只能呼籲南投縣政府可以懸崖勒馬還是怎麼樣"},{"start":558.061,"end":578.114,"text":"我跟委員報告因為案子沒有進來表示沒有這個案子只是他們準備做這樣的規劃目前他們準備做這個所以說在準備規劃的時候我們在不同的時間點我們其實已經非常清楚表達農業部的立場他原則上在特農區是不適合興建的特別是這個有爭議的這個焚化廠他對於那個"},{"start":582.557,"end":596.073,"text":"不可替代性的部分必須要更謹慎的去檢討不可替代性說是不是一定要設掩埋場或是焚化爐才是能夠解決他當地的垃圾的問題他必須要清楚的說明"},{"start":596.701,"end":621.707,"text":"OK 所以我們是希望就是說真的等到他們真的把計畫送出來因為我們看到的話他大概是前面的階段都一直在進行當中那我們聽起來中央政府這裡要等到他計畫進來之後你們可能做整個的審視才可以就你們的專業的立場提供這個意見嘛好 部長現在您講的這個是這樣子嗎對 相關的規定是如此"},{"start":622.987,"end":648.049,"text":"我報告委員這對特定農業區農業部是非常的謹慎是必定要經過層層的把關而且通過各種的條件才有辦法變更目前看起來農業部採取的是相當清楚的立場要變更是非常非常困難的甚至是不可能所以我也希望南投縣政府有心要解決縣內的垃圾大家都應該來協助但南投縣政府必須先了解現在南投縣政府"},{"start":648.669,"end":672.273,"text":"每天的垃圾他除了可以回收的除了大型可以再利用的除了廚餘之外他剩下多少垃圾據我現在的手上的資料他剩下應該要做這種焚化或是等等處理的垃圾大概有259噸之多那麼應該先從垃圾減量開始在尋求縣內有沒有其他的處理的量能可以擴大增建"},{"start":673.069,"end":689.96,"text":"那用這個來解決目前這259噸的垃圾再來呢他能夠跟區域的合作跟區域其他縣市做各種不同的合作方式那所有如果從這樣子從清除他的量能進行垃圾的減量必須再做一些量能的擴增"},{"start":690.88,"end":718.26,"text":"也許他有辦法來解決目前那如果南投縣政府能夠聽聽現在地方上一些人士提出這樣一個所謂複合性方式的一個方式的話那需要我們來協助行政院願意來協助南投縣政府但是這必須南投縣政府自己要承擔這樣一個地方處理垃圾的量能跟責任OK 好 謝謝院長我先請兩位部長先回座我們現在請環境部彭部長"},{"start":719.401,"end":720.682,"text":"南投县的垃圾问题"},{"start":749.381,"end":768.576,"text":"出了很大的这个问题好那之前呢刚刚那个我们卓院长真的很清楚对于南投县的这个垃圾的这个目前他可能没有很积极从源头来做这个处理这个部分我就想这是一个长久以来的这个问题"},{"start":769.296,"end":797.835,"text":"像之前我们南投县长参选人温士珍医师他提出了所谓的鸡尾酒疗法他自己本身是医生他就认为说就像治病一样比如说有癌症你可能也没有办法用单一的方式来做治疗你应该要用多元的方式来处理我在想刚刚卓院长其实也讲到了重点我在想跟我们温士珍医师的想法其实是非常的类似"},{"start":799.196,"end":820.998,"text":"是不是要設置這個焚化爐才能夠做到垃圾的去化是不是焚化爐才是唯一的途徑然後之前呢溫醫師其實他跟我做了很多的討論也做了一些這個數據的這個分析那像目前就如剛剛我們院長所提的其實我們一天我們的這個"},{"start":823.059,"end":849.39,"text":"廢棄物的總量其實是635公噸除掉處於16公噸資源回收351公噸還有巨大再利用9公噸其實我們一般垃圾每天的生產量是259公噸其中有161公噸是委外來處理剩下其實每天都還有98公噸的缺口"},{"start":849.83,"end":863.599,"text":"如果再加上之前我們也知道說南投常常發生火燒垃圾山的事情發生像全縣目前佔據的總量是32.7萬噸"},{"start":866.141,"end":891.066,"text":"那是從過去就累積下來的那其實這個數字除了說我們南投沒有焚化爐沒有去化的能力之外我在想努力不夠也是原因之一文士這麼認為因為像南投垃圾的這個問題我們之前跟文士陣營是曾經做過一些概算的那目前南投縣的資源回收率是55.24%"},{"start":893.527,"end":915.826,"text":"可是如果你參考我們台北市或雙北市的執行機關資收率台北市是67.01%新北市59.45%其實南投縣的資源回收率比雙北尤其是台北市少了整整10%"},{"start":918.942,"end":932.376,"text":"台北市可能能夠做到67.01%可是南投縣只有55.24%如果說我們可以參考雙北的做法的話是我們一起可以減少27到75噸的垃圾量"},{"start":949.637,"end":963.963,"text":"謝謝 接下來想說很多人都在說這是與南河縣的地方自治可是我想說現在有這個人對我們要去跟南河縣合作尤其是在這個熱血的位置和群體的問題"},{"start":985.222,"end":985.562,"text":"好 謝謝羅美玲"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}