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有請秘書長好 請秘書長好 高秘書長早你剛剛的報告我有仔細聽不過我有些議題還是想跟您做一些確認秘書長依照法院組織法第91條法庭上的秩序是由審判長來負責維持那麼我想再請問法警在現場的作用是什麼"},{"start":32.245,"end":42.655,"text":"他要不要接受審判長還有法官的指揮呢請你簡單回答 謝謝法警在法庭上絕對是要接受審判長的指揮"},{"start":44.591,"end":67.436,"text":"那當然剛剛你也提到什麼法警因為有不明確他的職責還是規範不明確那法官有時候過於保守等一下我們就是下面會衍生這些問題秘書長因為大多數人都認為這個司法是正義最後一道防線所以依照這個概念來說法庭無論是這個刑而上的秩序或是這個刑而下的一些"},{"start":68.116,"end":71.859,"text":"建築、牆體等等基本上我們認為這個地方應該是要最安全最有法律尊嚴的地方那建台中這個地震發生了尤其是最近這一次這個等於是這個被告女性被告毆打這個全國律師公會理事長加上民眾這個事件那大部分人會先疑惑會先想說那為什麼法警在現場"},{"start":91.092,"end":108.261,"text":"但是卻沒有進行逮捕就是我先提出幾個問題就是說這個是大部分人會這樣想法警在嘛沒有進行逮捕那我要先請問的是由誰來啟動這個指揮法警在現場要進行逮捕但是在法院包括庭內或庭外麻煩秘書長說清楚 謝謝"},{"start":111.91,"end":126.569,"text":"簡單的回答 庭內鋼工委員報告絕對是庭總審判長的指揮那庭外的部分也就是其實罰警他負有維持秩序可是這一件裡面當然"},{"start":127.229,"end":142.929,"text":"其實現場這位女士她等同於現行犯老實說我必須承認我們法警任何人都可以逮捕現行犯只是她真的遲疑了那另外一個如果除了現行犯以外的強制"},{"start":143.59,"end":148.874,"text":"謝謝秘書長 因為有關現刑犯部分我稍後再跟你繼續討論因為大家對現刑犯可能在定義上有質疑那難道會因為當時如果沒有法官或是說院內的長官來指揮所以他就不能制止 就不能進行逮捕嗎因為我想這部分要請您說清楚因為如果說是法定的不明確也不能推給法警那這個部分還是請秘書長再回答"},{"start":170.592,"end":184.007,"text":"如果沒有人去啟動這個指揮法警不能主動來做嗎其實如果依照我們現行的做法法警是可以自己就可以啟動他當時是真的是過於遲疑"},{"start":185.809,"end":211.672,"text":"是因為你的規範不明確呢還是因為剛剛你也報告到這一點沒有強制等等沒有沒有最重要是說因為法警會受到外界一致質疑在法庭以外我講法庭以外法庭以外的部分他必須要因我們規定是自己要啟動可是因為外界對於法組法的質疑真的讓我們法警們所以這個就是我們要討論的地方嘛他除了現行犯以外他都會有質疑"},{"start":212.933,"end":233.018,"text":"就是在這個地方就是因為法源的關係然後外界的質疑的關係造成法警他對自己的質疑這個是最大的因素我瞭解你現在的說法那請你稍後我是不是請這個張司長這個檢察司長來說明如果說同樣的事情發生在地檢署你們會怎麼處理"},{"start":234.417,"end":235.538,"text":"檢察官指揮"},{"start":265.658,"end":284.395,"text":"現在就是有關現行方就請你稍微我再來請教秘書長秘書長請你看一下這個台中地院事後及時的澄清新聞稿台中地院說什麼呢因傷害罪屬告訴哪論罪第一個理由且供給日無理事長已經立即報警第二個理由第三事發當下法警無法判斷他是否受傷"},{"start":285.396,"end":305.355,"text":"第四所以還是以維持法院秩序為先請問秘書長你能夠接受這個說法或辯解嗎真的很抱歉我自己也不太能夠接受所以對於這件事情我們也跟台中地院那個王院長我有很跟他的仔細的講清楚可能他"},{"start":306.036,"end":319.95,"text":"可是我必須跟委員報告他這個新聞卡這種寫法是他問了法警說你為什麼沒有當場這個制止強力制止他說法警認為這樣他寫的是法警認為這樣"},{"start":322.651,"end":335.68,"text":"衛醫線行為 這是放在你們的官網上喔那個秘書長 這個是很嚴重因為如果是這樣的方法 又灌在官網上的這個澄清稿那以後大家就可以告訴你來論罪大家先打一場啊 只要沒有鬧出人命啊 沒有人提告"},{"start":336.534,"end":363.832,"text":"那是不是就是說也沒有人指揮這個法警那法院指揮大家就在一旁觀看就變成這樣啊所以這一次這是蠻嚴重的我們是非常的抱歉說當初我對王院長他這個新聞稿他這個協法我希望他不是只有在台中地院啦我們希望這個檢討還是要全部的啦那我再請教秘書長請你明確的說在法律上他是現行犯嗎在法律上"},{"start":365.671,"end":367.033,"text":"那我先請秘書長看這個回歸法理"},{"start":382.125,"end":409.277,"text":"請看司法院32院第2505號解釋這邊解釋文寫得非常清楚告訴乃論罪的現行犯適用刑訴第88條是現行犯逮捕規定換言之告訴乃論罪的現行犯一樣是現行犯適用現行犯逮捕的規定這就不關是對照律師有沒有受傷問題喔而是法庭本來就有逮捕的權利但是司法院跟台中紀念好像忘記了這號解釋是嗎"},{"start":411.439,"end":434.371,"text":"報告委員還是平常都沒有在用不需要用沒有沒有沒有絕對要用當初真的我要跟委員報告因為王院長說他的寫法是法警的想法所以我們接受了他這個想法法警的想法正如官網上的一個澄清稿如果是這樣引起大家的誤會我很抱歉真的是任何現行犯不問何人都可以代表真的是這樣"},{"start":436.853,"end":452.54,"text":"請教張司長 法務部是司法行政最高主管機關告訴乃論罪的現行犯 法院的長官或法官到底能不能指揮法警來進行即時逮捕只要是現行犯的話 不論任何人都可以逮捕"},{"start":457.939,"end":475.448,"text":"這市長你現在說可以齁但是沒錯但是現在齁連你們家的高檢署啊2025年10月發布的法律宣導也是直接打臉遞願嘛你看過這個文宣嗎高檢署說得很明白告訴哪論罪的陷阱犯可以逮捕因為告訴哪論只是判決中的訴訟要件這個市長"},{"start":477.589,"end":493.778,"text":"那到底要不要逮捕一個現行犯我們回歸到當初立法的理由一個是保全證據一個就是防止行為人逃亡那再來就是維護公共秩序那當然其中這個維護公共秩序應該是適用本案的一個理由逮捕是為了維護公共秩序並保護人身的安全"},{"start":494.378,"end":508.371,"text":"結果高檢署的法學嘗試好像還勝過地院的應變能力所以市長如果地檢署發生同樣事情那地檢署署長或是檢察官如果他沒有去指揮法警抓人那您會不會懲處"},{"start":510.895,"end":527.091,"text":"我想那個相關的現場狀況都要依照現場的這個市政來做一些判斷那有關這個台中地院的這個回應那我們是尊重台中地院的回應那至於本部的話呢就是都有強化這個法警的相關教育訓練"},{"start":528.332,"end":555,"text":"就是如果沒有人去指揮的時候法警能不能做一些採取一些行動這個部分請你們要釐清這個責任當然我強調法國要明確也不能讓基層的法警受到委屈那我再請問秘書長為什麼台中紀念長官法官可以袖手旁觀那法警不敢抓人那還用這個荒謬的理由你剛剛有盡量解釋說他是用這個法警的說法但是這樣也不對啊對不對你現在在官網就是代表司法院的立場"},{"start":556.34,"end":585.047,"text":"最令人生氣 不好意思 我再講一下這不是突發 剛剛你在報告中也有提到這是蓄意攻擊 為什麼我這樣講呢因為這個女生是 這個女性她是有前科的她攻擊過其他的女律師喔這不是秘密 因為你從大眾 一般新聞就查得到那既然該名當事人他有這個前科啦 有暴力傾向而且對法律 法律專業人有敵意喔很深的敵意那為什麼這次開庭 財中地院毫無做預防措施也沒有這個足夠的警力 也沒有預先警示"},{"start":585.567,"end":605.534,"text":"就現場一塌糊塗應變一塌糊塗你剛剛稍微報告報告到了但是事實上應該都沒有落實啦你雖然有講到這個部分對跟委員報告確實沒有落實他們都有規定可是確實沒有落實但是事實上就沒有嘛就沒有嘛就讓事情就這樣發生沒有沒有跟委員報告"},{"start":606.935,"end":628.133,"text":"沒有事先防範是他們沒有落實可是現場的警力是有到他就是沒有逮捕所以警力是足夠的喔警力是足夠的對於這個有前科的有前科的這個暴力被告已經有發生了是不是說這個那這還是讓它發生嘛所以這個要檢討的事情蠻多的台中立院真的沒有落實"},{"start":628.513,"end":644.44,"text":"因為在法院上如果我們說談司法改革如果連律師的人身安全身邊都沒有辦法收到保障那真的要談未來其他的事就是太遙遠了可是可以跟委員報告台中法院發生這件事以後應該是三天後就連續連續連續大概就是在積極的"},{"start":649.662,"end":654.505,"text":"教導法警 安全管理機制 職務訓練應變原則他們就是一定要落實是最重要的謝謝秘書長還有司長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:13:23.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:13:23.498000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T09:13:23.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:13:23.578000+08:00","text":"請秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:13:23.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:13:23.718000+08:00","text":"高秘書長早。早。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:13:23.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:13:24.138000+08:00","text":"你剛剛的報告我有仔細聽了，不過我有一些議題還是想跟您做一些確認。是。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:13:24.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:13:25.078000+08:00","text":"秘書長，依照法院組織法第九十一條，法庭上的秩序是由審判長來負責維持，我想再請問，法警在現場的作用是什麼？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:13:53.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:13:56.488000+08:00","text":"他要不要接受審判長還有法官的指揮呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:13:57.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:14:00.332000+08:00","text":"請你簡單回答，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:14:00.332000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:14:01.332000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:14:00.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:14:03.655000+08:00","text":"法警在法庭上絕對是要接受審判長的指揮。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:14:05.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:14:16.053000+08:00","text":"當然，剛剛你也提到法警因為他的職責還是規範不明確，法官有時候過於保守，等一下我們下面會衍生這些問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:14:16.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:14:53.953000+08:00","text":"秘書長，因為大多數人都認為司法是正義最後一道防線，所以依照這個概念來說，法庭無論是形而上的秩序或是形而下的建築、牆體等等，基本上我們認為這個地方應該是要最安全、最有法律尊嚴的地方，既然臺中地院發生尤其是最近這一次，等於是女性被告毆打全國律師公會理事長，加上民眾這個事件，大部分的人會疑惑、會先想說為什麼法警在現場，但是卻沒有逕行逮捕？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:14:54.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:14:58.816000+08:00","text":"我先提出幾個問題，這個是大部分的人會這樣想，法警在嘛！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:14:59.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:15:04.599000+08:00","text":"但沒有逕行逮捕，我要先請問的是由誰來啟動這個指揮？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:15:04.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:15:09.261000+08:00","text":"法警在現場要逕行逮捕，在法院包括庭內或庭外，麻煩秘書長說清楚，謝謝。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:15:12.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:15:31.914000+08:00","text":"我簡單回答，剛剛跟委員報告，庭內絕對是聽從審判長的指揮，而庭外的部分，也就是法警其實負有維持秩序之責任，可是這一件裡面，當然現場這位女士等同於現行犯。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:15:32.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:15:38.763000+08:00","text":"老實說，我必須承認我們法警、任何人都可以逮捕現行犯，只是他真的遲疑了。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:15:40.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:15:43.909000+08:00","text":"另外，如果除了現行犯以外強制力的……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:15:44.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:15:46.972000+08:00","text":"謝謝秘書長，因為有關現行犯部分，我稍後再跟您繼續討論，因為大家對現行犯可能在定義上有質疑。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:15:47.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:15:48.013000+08:00","text":"難道會因為當時如果沒有法官或是院內長官來指揮，所以他就不能制止、就不能逕行逮捕嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:15:48.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:16:15.957000+08:00","text":"我想這部分要請您說清楚，因為如果是法定得不明確，也不能推給法警，這個部分還是請秘書長再回答，如果沒有人去啟動這個指揮，法警不能主動來做嗎？","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:16:16.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:16:24.607000+08:00","text":"如果依照我們現行的做法，法警自己就可以啟動，他當時真的是過於遲疑。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:16:24.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:16:28.531000+08:00","text":"這個過於遲疑，是因為你的規範不明確呢？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:16:28.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:16:31.653000+08:00","text":"還是因為剛剛你也報告到這一點，沒有強制力等等？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:16:31.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:16:38.940000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，最重要是，因為法警會受到外界一直質疑在法庭以外，我講法庭以外。是。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:16:39.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:16:49.689000+08:00","text":"法庭以外的部分，他必須要依我們規定，是自己要啟動，可是因為外界對於法組法的質疑，真的讓我們法警們對於……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:16:49.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:16:50.850000+08:00","text":"所以這個就是我們要討論的地方嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:16:50.850000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:16:51.850000+08:00","text":"他為什麼會質疑？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:16:51.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:16:54.693000+08:00","text":"除了現行犯以外，他就會有遲疑，就是在這個地方。對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:16:55.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:17:03.715000+08:00","text":"就是因為法源的關係、外界質疑的關係，造成法警他對自己的遲疑，這個是最大的因素。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:17:03.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:17:13.998000+08:00","text":"我了解你現在的說法，請你稍候，我是不是請檢察司張司長來說明，如果同樣的事情發生在地檢署，你們會怎麼處理？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"張司長曉雯","start":"2026-03-30T09:17:13.998000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:17:14.998000+08:00","text":"報告委員，委員講的是偵查庭內或者是庭外？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:17:14.998000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:17:15.998000+08:00","text":"請你們就庭內、庭外的情況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張司長曉雯","start":"2026-03-30T09:17:15.998000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:17:16.998000+08:00","text":"如果在庭內的話，一樣就是法警要受到檢察官的指揮……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:17:15.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:17:16.538000+08:00","text":"檢察官指揮？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張司長曉雯","start":"2026-03-30T09:17:16.538000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:17:31.598000+08:00","text":"對，協處相關的威脅或暴力事件。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張司長曉雯","start":"2026-03-30T09:17:31.598000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:17:46.658000+08:00","text":"如果是在偵查庭外的話，其實依照剛剛秘書長也有提到，只要是現行犯的話，任何人都可以逮捕，所以主要就是符合現行犯規定的話，法警就可以即時啟動逮捕現行犯，即依照刑訴法的依據來逮捕。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:17:46.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:17:50.181000+08:00","text":"好，現在就是有關現行犯，請你稍候一下，我再來請教秘書長。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:17:50.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:17:54.085000+08:00","text":"秘書長，請你看一下臺中地院事後即時的澄清新聞稿。是。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:17:55.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:17:56.007000+08:00","text":"臺中地院說什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:17:56.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:18:09.920000+08:00","text":"「因傷害罪屬告訴乃論罪」，第一個理由；「且遭攻擊之吳理事長已經立即報警」，第二個理由；第三，「法警當下無從立即判斷吳理事長是否受傷」；第四，「故仍以維持法院秩序為先」。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:18:10.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:18:14.264000+08:00","text":"請問秘書長，你能接受這個說法或辯解嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:18:14.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:18:37.506000+08:00","text":"真的很抱歉，我自己也不太能夠接受，所以對於這件事情，我也跟臺中地院王院長很仔細地講清楚，可是我必須跟委員報告，這個新聞稿這種寫法是他問了法警：「你為什麼沒有當場強力制止？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:18:37.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:18:40.950000+08:00","text":"」，他說法警認為這樣、他寫的是法警認為這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:18:43.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:18:45.072000+08:00","text":"「未依現行犯……」可是放在你們的官網上。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:18:46.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:19:03.578000+08:00","text":"秘書長，這個是很嚴重，因為如果是這樣的方法，放在官網上的澄清稿，以後大家就可以用告訴乃論罪，大家先打一場，只要沒有鬧出人命、沒有人提告，也沒人指揮法警，是不是在法院裡大家就在一旁觀看，就變成這樣？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:19:04.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:19:06.600000+08:00","text":"所以這一次是蠻嚴重的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:19:06.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:19:12.944000+08:00","text":"對，所以這個情況我們真的是非常地抱歉，當初我對王院長這個新聞稿的寫法，他給我的理由是這樣，所以會變成這樣。","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:19:13.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:19:19.468000+08:00","text":"我希望不是只有在臺中地院，我們希望這個檢討還是要全部的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:19:19.468000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:19:20.468000+08:00","text":"有、有、有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:19:20.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:19:24.291000+08:00","text":"我再請教秘書長，請你明確地說，在法律上他是現行犯嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:19:24.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:19:24.812000+08:00","text":"在法律上！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:19:24.812000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:19:26.972000+08:00","text":"當初我們在看到這個情況，後來我們認為他是個現行犯沒錯，可是針對他要不要逮捕，這個是兩件事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:19:26.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:19:53.170000+08:00","text":"我先請秘書長回歸法理，請看司法院32年院字第2505號解釋，這篇解釋文寫得非常清楚，告訴乃論罪的現行犯適用刑訴第八十八條現行犯逮捕規定。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:19:53.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:10.277000+08:00","text":"換言之，告訴乃論罪的現行犯一樣是現行犯，適用現行犯逮捕的規定，這就不關對造律師有沒有受傷的問題，而是法警本來就有逮捕的權力，但是司法院跟臺中地院好像忘記了這號解釋，是嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:12.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:12.879000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:12.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:14.600000+08:00","text":"還是平常都沒有在用、不需要用？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:15.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:16.721000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，絕對要用。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:17.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:25.026000+08:00","text":"真的，我要跟委員報告，當初王院長說他的寫法是法警的想法，所以我們接受了他這個想法。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:25.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:28.788000+08:00","text":"但是法警的想法成為官網上的一個澄清稿，是吧？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:28.788000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:29.788000+08:00","text":"代表官網、代表司法院嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:29.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:35.371000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣引起大家的誤會，我很抱歉，任何現行犯是不問何人都可以逮捕，真的是這樣。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:35.371000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:37.853000+08:00","text":"是、好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:37.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:50.138000+08:00","text":"請教張司長，法務部是司法行政最高主管機關，對於告訴乃論罪的現行犯，法院的長官或法官到底能不能指揮法警來進行即時逮捕？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"張司長曉雯","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:50.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:53.520000+08:00","text":"只要是現行犯的話，不論任何人都可以逮捕。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:53.520000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:20:59.079000+08:00","text":"這個就非常清楚，現行犯就是……對。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:20:59.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:21:10.365000+08:00","text":"好，司長，你現在說可以，沒錯，但是現在連你們家高檢署在2025年10月發布的法律宣導也是直接打臉地院，你看過這個文宣嗎？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:21:10.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:21:16.288000+08:00","text":"高檢署說得很明白，告訴乃論罪現行犯可以逮捕，因為告訴乃論只是判決中的訴訟要件。對。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:21:16.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:21:26.834000+08:00","text":"司長，到底要不要逮捕一個現行犯，我們回歸到當初立法的理由：一個是保全證據，一個就是防止行為人逃亡，再來就是維護公共秩序。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:21:27.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:21:40.343000+08:00","text":"當然，其中維護公共秩序應該是適用本案的一個理由，逮捕是為了維護公共秩序並保護人身安全，結果高檢署的法學常識好像還勝過地院的應變能力。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:21:41.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:21:49.371000+08:00","text":"所以司長，如果地檢署發生同樣事情，地檢署署長或是檢察官如果沒有去指揮法警抓人，您會不會懲處？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"張司長曉雯","start":"2026-03-30T09:21:51.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:21:58.141000+08:00","text":"我想相關的現場狀況都要依照現場的事證來做判斷。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張司長曉雯","start":"2026-03-30T09:21:59.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:22:08.091000+08:00","text":"有關臺中地院的回應，我們尊重，至於本部都有強化法警的相關教育訓練。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:22:09.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:22:14.273000+08:00","text":"我希望你很清楚，就是如果沒有人去指揮的時候，法警能不能採取一些行動？","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:22:14.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:22:21.396000+08:00","text":"這個部分請你們要釐清責任，當然，我強調的就是法規要明確，不能讓基層的法警受到委屈。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:22:22.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:22:29.278000+08:00","text":"我再請問秘書長，為什麼臺中地院的長官、法官可以袖手旁觀，法警不敢抓人，還用這個荒謬的理由？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:22:29.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:22:33.879000+08:00","text":"你剛剛有儘量解釋，是用這個法警的說法，但是這樣也不對啊，對不對？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:22:33.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:22:38.200000+08:00","text":"你貼在官網就是代表司法院的立場，最令人生氣……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:22:38.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:22:39.200000+08:00","text":"對，這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:22:38.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:22:43.041000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我再講一下，這不是突發，剛剛你在報告中也有提到這是蓄意攻擊，為什麼我這樣講呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:22:43.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:22:51.523000+08:00","text":"因為這個女性是有前科的，他攻擊過其他的女律師，這不是秘密，因為你從一般新聞就查得到。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:22:52.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:09.108000+08:00","text":"既然該名當事人有前科、有暴力傾向，而且對法律專業人士有很深的敵意，為什麼這次開庭臺中地院毫無預防措施，沒有足夠的警力，也沒有預先警示，現場一塌糊塗、應變一塌糊塗？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:09.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:13.529000+08:00","text":"你剛剛稍微報告到了，你雖然有講到這個部分，但是事實上應該都沒有落實。","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:15.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:18.251000+08:00","text":"對，跟委員報告，確實沒有落實。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:18.251000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:19.251000+08:00","text":"你知道醫院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:18.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:21.052000+08:00","text":"其實他們都有規定，可是就是沒有落實。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:21.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:22.512000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說要標示，但是事實上就沒有嘛。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:23.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:23.633000+08:00","text":"對，真的沒有。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:24.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:25.213000+08:00","text":"就讓事情這樣發生。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:25.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:34.760000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，跟委員報告，沒有事先防範是他們沒有落實，可是現場的警力是有到的，但就是沒有逮捕現行犯。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:34.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:44.549000+08:00","text":"所以警力是足夠的，對於這個有前科的暴力被告，已經有發生過的，是不是說……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:44.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:45.549000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:44.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:47.691000+08:00","text":"但還是讓它發生了嘛，所以要檢討的事情滿多的。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:48.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:49.133000+08:00","text":"對，很抱歉，臺中地院真的沒有落實。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:49.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:23:57.436000+08:00","text":"因為在法院，如果我們說要談司法改革，如果連律師的人身安全、生命安全都沒有辦法受到保障，要再談未來其他的事還是太遙遠了。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:23:57.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:24:12.463000+08:00","text":"可是可以跟委員報告，臺中法院發生這件事以後，應該是三天後就連續在積極地教導法警，積極地……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:24:13.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:24:14.084000+08:00","text":"我想安全管理機制、職務訓練、應變原則……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T09:24:14.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:24:15.045000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，沒錯，他們就是一定要落實，這是最重要的。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-03-30T09:24:15.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T09:24:15.505000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝秘書長還有司長。謝謝。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T09:24:16.005000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:24:24.576429+08:00","text":"由於議事錄先前已經宣讀完畢了，還沒有確定，現在我們就先確定議事錄。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T09:24:24.876429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:24:30.590714+08:00","text":"請問各位，上次會議的議事錄有沒有遺漏或錯誤？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T09:24:30.890714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:24:36.605000+08:00","text":"（無）沒有遺漏或錯誤的話，我們議事錄就確定，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T09:24:36.905000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:24:41.476429+08:00","text":"再來請林沛祥委員代替我當主席一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（林委員沛祥代）","start":"2026-03-30T09:24:41.776429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T09:24:44.919286+08:00","text":"有請翁曉玲委員開始質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}