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11:04:38","會議時間":"2026-03-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍年度軍事投資計畫與財政負擔能力之動態平衡評估」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.41909375000000004,"end":2.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.83221875,"end":3.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.387843750000002,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.872843750000001,"end":48.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.048468750000005,"end":51.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.52909375,"end":52.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.54596875,"end":61.219718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.09721875,"end":62.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.143468750000004,"end":68.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.25659375000001,"end":74.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.29346875,"end":79.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.90909375000001,"end":121.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.60909375,"end":108.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.40221875,"end":109.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.08784375,"end":130.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.86284375,"end":136.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.73534375,"end":140.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.59534375,"end":145.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.47659375,"end":155.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.44096875,"end":186.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.46596875,"end":193.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.55346875,"end":194.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.46034375000002,"end":223.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.13096875000002,"end":225.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.08846875,"end":227.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.86034375000003,"end":239.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.40034375000002,"end":229.54784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.85846875000001,"end":240.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.74846875000003,"end":274.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.82346875000002,"end":248.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.19971875000005,"end":271.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.29221875,"end":272.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.78971875,"end":280.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.79721875,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.39909375,"end":294.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.85409375,"end":302.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.56221875,"end":307.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.23596875000004,"end":310.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.85159375,"end":319.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.09096875,"end":319.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":319.12034375,"end":319.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.15409375,"end":319.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.69409375000004,"end":321.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.93846875,"end":322.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":323.33909375,"end":331.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":332.31659375000004,"end":333.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":334.00409375000004,"end":339.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":339.70784375,"end":342.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":342.93096875000003,"end":343.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":343.69034375,"end":346.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.28909375,"end":346.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":346.59284375000004,"end":357.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":358.60784375000003,"end":359.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":359.89034375,"end":362.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":362.57346875,"end":371.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":373.25534375,"end":375.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":376.00596875,"end":378.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.95909375,"end":379.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.90409375,"end":393.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":385.69221875000005,"end":386.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.14659375,"end":404.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.54159375,"end":407.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.13596875,"end":411.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.76409375000003,"end":412.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.96221875000003,"end":413.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.35034375000004,"end":428.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.97659375,"end":429.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.25909375000003,"end":431.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.42784375,"end":431.64284375000005},{"spe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主席我們有請部長好 有請部長是 方偉部長早安 部長這樣國家的財政就像家庭財務一樣我們支出增加就會面對資源要重新分配的這個問題當某一項的支出快速的成長那其他的支出勢必就會受到影響"},{"start":28.815,"end":51.375,"text":"那這幾年其實我國的國防預算大幅的增加那2026年接近9500億已經超過GDP的3%我們的賴總統也明確的宣示說未來我們要達到GDP5%的目標那如果未來要達到賴總統承諾的這個5%的GDP的這個目標行政院是不是有給我們國防部穩定的裁員保證穩定的裁員保證"},{"start":52.792,"end":61.032,"text":"跟委員報告,我先說明一下以115年度為例,國安部本身的年度預算是五六一四"},{"start":62.128,"end":90.57,"text":"五六一四,那您剛剛講的九千多億應該就是說我們參照北約的這個不,不,就是說未來我們要達到GDP五百來講啦有沒有穩定的財源給我們我們總統宣示嘛,未來我們的GDP要占五百嘛我只是先說明一下我剛剛講的,就是說年度預算是五六一四嘛那當然還有一些其他基金預算等等那因為我們用NATO來算,所以還有這個海巡署的,還有退伍會的"},{"start":91.491,"end":107.445,"text":"那這個先說明一下那第二個當然我們在報告裡面也說明了我們未來三年所一個付款高峰期的持續案的部分大概要有五千七百億的一個預算的需求那另外還有新增案如果我們沒有"},{"start":107.845,"end":121.444,"text":"將特別預算擺進來的話大概新政案有700多億的這個案項還要獲得滿足所以我們才會提出8年的新興急迫需求一照2500億的特別預算"},{"start":122.125,"end":144.782,"text":"那我的意思是說如果在有沒有穩定的財源的保證如果在沒有穩定財源的情況之下這筆錢要從哪裡來如果按照我們現在我們國房預算的增加速度遠遠高於我們的年度的稅入嘛那如果在未來不加稅然後不去排擠其他預算情況下看來好像也只有常態性的舉債這個部分嘛那"},{"start":146.181,"end":155.468,"text":"這個我們要擔心的就是說難道我們因為要這些讓像下一代去備債嗎這件事我要問更具體的問題就是說目前公共預算的這個大幅的成長除了"},{"start":157.472,"end":184.344,"text":"年度的預算除了一部分來自舉債以外特別預算大概都是用在這個採購大量的新式武器那新式武器買了之後我們養不養得起這是我的重點那我們未來面對交付的這個高峰期新式裝備陸續的服役本行要請教說未來這些新式武器的作業維持費包括你的維修養護跟訓練經費總體規模的推估是多少那是不是有納入長期的財政規劃"},{"start":186.905,"end":191.128,"text":"市長 委員報告這個都在我們的規劃範圍之內那詳細的部分要看這個相關的武器裝備"},{"start":195.766,"end":222.959,"text":"我們這個區分兩個部分來講我們作為費的部分針對未來五年所需要的那個額度就是新的武器裝備的這個部分會納到我們在建案作業階段的時候就會把它納入那另外一個部分是我們還要配合舊式武器裝備的汰除會兩個一起並同考量然後去衡量這些新式武器裝備未來的預算需求然後做一個年度的一個編列"},{"start":224.195,"end":240.035,"text":"所以我們有做這樣的規劃?對有啊現在就是這樣做那如果說我們現在維持我們現在是成本會持續的增加對不對那會不會未來會排擠到我們國防部內部的自己的軍事投資跟人員維持的預算阿梅"},{"start":242.288,"end":269.902,"text":"委員的意思是說我們的軍頭的預算帶動了作業維持費的增加那我剛剛已經講過了就是說他在軍頭建案的時候他至少要一開始的時候他就會把兩年的備份料件都會納入進去那之後還要再看這個武器裝備的性質我們會納入全受理的管理來了解這樣的全受理管理之下他的這個維持費會占到多少那不同的武器裝備會有不同"},{"start":270.182,"end":289.51,"text":"所以這個本來就要做長年期的規劃所以部長未來是不會影響到嗎那另外還有一個舊裝備還要汰除啊所以這個不斷的是在一個滾動的一個修正當中啊那沒有說我們去籌購一個新的裝備就會使作業維持會一定會"},{"start":290.49,"end":301.415,"text":"一定會或一定不會我們本來就要做一個整體的規劃嘛那本是意思說我們買了新的裝備之後未來它養護費會增加嘛新裝備不一定它的維持會比舊裝備高啊譬如說你現在新的裝備你M1 A2進來"},{"start":308.291,"end":320.852,"text":"那跟你維持一個CM11的作業的維持費這個屬於我們要汰除的部分哪一個維持費會高所以本身問題是會不會影響到會不會這樣所以以後勤來講"},{"start":323.376,"end":349.797,"text":"委員好我是侯思思次長向委員報告我們舉CM111例子他進入中售期之後他的維持費比在前售期的時候double所以新的裝備包含我們的備份零附件包含回來之後依照寄令我們去準備的後續的維修料件未必會比老裝備更耗錢這是第一點第二個很多事情都是要推陳出新嘛是我們把新的裝備買進來之後更符合我的作戰需求"},{"start":350.097,"end":377.05,"text":"我老裝備不符合專案需求或是裝備老舊耗更多的作為費我就必須要貸出這中間一定會有一個這個要平衡您問說會不會一定比新裝備買回來之後你要多花錢或是說一定會影響到這沒有辦法做保證因為所有的裝備我們現在還沒有通通都獲得那在獲得之後一定的額度之內我們必須要貸出老裝備把錢投入在新裝備的維護上好"},{"start":379.98,"end":406.777,"text":"因為本協會這樣問就是說我們會好奇說我們買了新的裝備勢必你日後的維護費會增加那我們現在是用特別預算採購對不對 採購新的裝備那這些裝備日後他是不是還有他的維護費要用那是不是變在一般的預算裡面所以嘛 是不是那我要問的是說這些會不會增加那你增加之後你會不會影響到你原本你國防部內部的這些你的規劃 你的人事費 你的作業費跟你的投資會不會影響到其實主要是問這一塊"},{"start":408.218,"end":429.109,"text":"所以這個部分是要了解到,我們的影響就是這樣但是委員的意思好像先提會有一個命定就是說一個命定的一個假設說現狀要進來,然後維持會不會增加然後會大幅的增加,這一個講法我想是不對的"},{"start":430.382,"end":446.356,"text":"這個講法是不對的部長我們想要了解到就是說我們都支持要買新的武器新的裝備符合我們未來的國防的趨勢來保護這個國家安全但是我們也不希望說買這些東西之後你未來都沒有編列相關的維護費用的時候我們會造成這種情況我們就一直在講我們會編列"},{"start":450.619,"end":463.931,"text":"我們這邊有未來10年這個維持那個作業維持費的這個推國服務我們全受期我們在做這個分析的時候都會將全受期的這些維護都全部都要放進來所以這些在做我們的作業文件裡面就有一項是專門在做這個的"},{"start":465.572,"end":493.118,"text":"因為本系統的報告裡面並沒有看到所以要了解說我們到底有沒有做些東西如果沒有的話我們擔心的是什麼我想我們可以下去以後跟委員詳細的就每一個建案的文件包括從作戰需求系統以及騎乘工項到整體的獲得規劃的每一個項目跟委員做一個報告部長本席想要了解就是說我們擔心的是我們有錢買新的武器我們會不會養不起新武器就像你有能力去買超跑可是你沒有錢去換輪姿"},{"start":494.218,"end":505.035,"text":"作為環防部長我最擔心的是養一切維修費用很高但是沒有任何作戰能力的所以重點是在他能不能發揮我們整體的作戰"},{"start":506.597,"end":520.287,"text":"需求的能力啦會問這個問題就是說我們在擴張軍備的同時其實我們還是要考慮到後期的規劃成本我們就是有規劃所以包括人力和資源的部分我們會很願意來跟委員做一個充分的溝通謝謝部長的說明 謝謝"},{"start":528.472,"end":557.134,"text":"那部長其實大家其實擔心的是這樣身為民意代表最重要因為專業是國防的部分但民意代表我們身為立法委員我們主要是監督整個財政的狀況這也是為什麼大家在討論這件事情我們擔心的是不只是日後兩會還有包括我們的財政會不會受到衝擊這是我們在考慮的那好 那我們也時間也差不多了我再問一下另外一個問題就是說在今年1月1號發生台中外F16的這個失事的事件"},{"start":558.345,"end":576.08,"text":"我們有軍事雜誌在推斷說是不是跟我們奉產計畫沒有變更老舊的線數有關導致整個戰機飛行的先老化影響我們電路的系統那不曉得我們現在已經撈到這個黑盒子了吧對不對是那現在我們整個交召美方關係的進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":577.942,"end":598.723,"text":"報告委員一般這個黑盒子的判讀大概是需要30天左右但是還是要看黑盒子裡面的狀況因為要看他的資料完整性跟他的這個裡面資料存儲有沒有受到破壞所以說30天這個是至少要30天目前掌握的狀況是這樣那我們也在撈到之後隔天就直接送到美國"},{"start":599.315,"end":623.868,"text":"如果說真的像這個雜誌寫的未來這個查到這是跟線路老化有關的話我們國防部是不是有啟動全機隊的這個的特檢跟改善的計畫有嗎報告委員這個已經在112年全數完成我們原本的block兩棟的提升它包含所有限速的更新這個都已經做完了好 謝謝是謝謝主席 謝謝部長 以上"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}