{"error":false,"id":["168030"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168030,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168030","日期":"2026-03-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-03-30T11:36:39+08:00","結束時間":"2026-03-30T11:44:57+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:18","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d0265d86f2f18c67671f3d37e175c7bf117671a01da40a13b7080941cab810ccf3397ef17cf3074c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:36:39 - 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我一樣跟孟愷委員一樣要關心某一位地院的書記官所謂全數陣亡意思就是新到任的書記官待不滿一年的事情我想你們已經非常了解了可是可以看一下很多的書記官他們講說說老實話 我希望事情鬧得越大越好法院與檢察署的書記官工作越來越繁雜繁重"},{"start":46.259,"end":65.731,"text":"這種管考卻沒有減少同事呢每天加班做到八點還做不完為了接小孩只好趕五點下班再去加五六個小時的班幾乎沒有什麼時間陪孩子司法院的長官如果再不重視這個問題呢那就司法體系乾脆就是崩潰雖然他們很期待這一天"},{"start":66.431,"end":83.452,"text":"我講這個事情是剛才講說人不夠那但是呢你也提到了就是要自立自強嘛那這個無論如何能夠處理的內部處理的要處理那像這樣子的情況就是我們的書記官他的工作繁重到"},{"start":85.214,"end":95.641,"text":"送完小孩還要回來週末再加五六個小時的班以及呢各種管考沒有減少這是不是在我們管理上面也可以做一些改變讓留才這件事情變得有可能好跟委員報告"},{"start":101.125,"end":125.318,"text":"就是因為如果人員能夠到期一切節節就是因為人員沒辦法到期其實我們各法院都很努力把書記官的工作後續比較那個束縛型的工作能夠有這個委外人力來協助讓書記官的工作就完全在前階段的法庭筆錄跟前階段的卷證處理"},{"start":126.498,"end":152.971,"text":"這個是我們希望讓書記官工作能夠切一塊出去讓他減少另外我們努力的是我們當然書記官我們要讓他不要無心加班所以我們也在提高他的加班費然後另外我們也是運用我們可以用的這個二等書記官三等升二等二等升一等的原額的配套讓書記官能夠看到明天"},{"start":154.011,"end":169.18,"text":"那您剛講的是一回事可是我們在實際上面遇到另外一個狀況是您剛一直強調說希望人能夠增加但是在原本的員額上面那大家都一直在走那就是另外的管理問題了那就是另外的問題我們來看一下這個數據從112年到114年書記官員額以及到離職的人數調查表無論台北或新北的地院"},{"start":181.266,"end":186.43,"text":"離職的人數都多於倒職的人數我們看112年這個數據我們一個一個來看112年的時候呢這個倒職21人這個台北地院離職20人然後呢新北地院112年倒職24人離職28人也就是說你今天所謂的人數不只是說你想說人總給你的員額不夠多就算給你的員額多了離職的人還是比倒職的人多啊"},{"start":208.763,"end":215.445,"text":"113年一模一樣台北地院倒值28離職28新北地院倒值25離職28114年這個更誇張喔倒值的台北地院倒值50人離職52人114年倒值59離職56所以連續的三年112 113 114你原額在那個地方但是你倒值的人數跟離職的人數"},{"start":237.532,"end":255.578,"text":"相减之后要么等于0甚至是负数的情况那想要请问一下你们有没有了解为什么从112到114会有这样的情况发生以及检讨要怎么做能够让到值跟离值的人数不要进来的人跟出去的人一样甚至超过呢"},{"start":256.218,"end":271.388,"text":"好 跟委員報告 當然我必須要說 第一個是薪資薪資真的是你跟外部的工作量來比較 留不住他第二個 為什麼倒置他馬上離開 因為我一進來就是兩份工作 我看了我就走"},{"start":272.088,"end":287.791,"text":"那我們現在要努力的就是說 讓他的兩份工作 中間的有一份工作能夠讓其他的委外人員來處理 這是我們最努力的方向讓他進來覺得說 我就是只有一份工作 我才會留職"},{"start":288.932,"end":303.883,"text":"這個是我們最努力的方向另外一個要讓他看到明天我們希望加薪 加班費 加職等這個我們能夠用的全力都是在用這個方面115年有信心做到"},{"start":305.458,"end":325.516,"text":"反轉嗎沒有信心那我們再看一下您剛剛講的這個加班的事情加班絕對不是只要提高加班費大家就願意加班沒有人是願意的應該是我原本的工作到哪裡我就做到哪裡加班那是叫做例外而例外本來就該給加班費"},{"start":326.997,"end":344.284,"text":"所以就算你把加班費調高如果你的工作沒有讓他在一個合理的範圍裡面就算有加班費人家也不一定願意做這個工作來看一下新北地院的工作史書我把台北跟新北的都拉出來給你看你可以特别看我時間有限我們看新北地院的就好"},{"start":344.764,"end":366.028,"text":"新北地院的加班時數從112年的39小時到114年變成了44小時在114年的12月平均喔來到53小時所以我的意思是說你們現在一直告訴我說你們要調整你們要讓大家的工作的loading變小可是也從數據上看來並不是這樣子啊從數據上來看是增加的耶你看"},{"start":370.589,"end":373.872,"text":"從台北地院112年一路到114年從本來30等等的一直平均開始到42114年幾乎台北地院都40幾欸 114年12月新北地院到53個小時欸這個簡直就是過勞的情況嘛所以我的意思是說你們如果長時間有關心這些書記官他們的加班時數狀況你們有盡可能去掌握的話那不是說提高加班費"},{"start":398.951,"end":426.559,"text":"是你要盡可能去降低大家的加班時數的問題請問最後這一點要怎麼樣的去改善就跟委員剛剛報告其實我們從114年就開始要把書記官一部分工作移給委外人員那這一段其實從114年什麼時候開始要做這件事的我們114年最早在我高本院院長任內我們二月就開始做二月開始那顯然成效不高啊"},{"start":427.455,"end":447.864,"text":"沒有啊 我們高本月會長 我現在要推行到各地院你們要去落實這一件 另外 老實說啦案件量太大 即使切一半出去 老實說為什麼加班這麼多同樣的法官加班也這麼多 除非我們要把法官受案量減少"},{"start":448.704,"end":465.514,"text":"如果法官收案量不減少書記官永遠是這樣是沒有錯啦但是你弄到最後都沒有書記官了那也是那也是一樣啊那你都沒有書記官了那你一樣你這個庭怎麼開呢所以無論如何我知道面對這樣一個挑戰你們是辛苦的"},{"start":466.014,"end":482.98,"text":"但是你問題還是得解決的你問題一天沒有解決你讓大家到職離職每年到職離職的人數是一樣的然後那你說希望人總在開多少圈你們那有用嗎你開了這麼多圈要到職的人要又離職的人然後到職減離職等於零那跟沒有是一樣的嘛"},{"start":483.72,"end":495.053,"text":"所以這以上幾個重點要請你們一定要去理清今天非常多的委員都在關心這件事情那希望這個我們希望可以再多去想想還有沒有其他的辦法能夠再做調整謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:36:47.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:36:51.048000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們一樣請司法院高秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T11:36:52.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:36:52.452000+08:00","text":"請高秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:36:57.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:36:57.443000+08:00","text":"秘書長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:36:57.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:36:59.544000+08:00","text":"我跟孟楷委員一樣要關心某地院的書記官，所謂「全數陣亡」的意思就是新到任的書記官待不滿一年的這個事情。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:36:59.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:37:43.310000+08:00","text":"我想你們已經非常了解了，可是你們可以看一下，就是有書記官講：說老實話，我希望事情鬧得越大越好，法院與檢察署的書記官工作越來越繁雜、繁重，各種管考卻沒有減少，我同事每天加班做到8點還做不完，我為了接小孩，只好趕5點下班，再去加五、六個小時的班，幾乎沒有什麼時間陪孩子，司法院的長官如果再不重視這個問題，那就讓司法體系乾脆崩潰算了！","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:37:43.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:37:44.711000+08:00","text":"我很期待這一天。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:37:45.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:38:14.501000+08:00","text":"像我講的這個事情，剛才說人不夠，但是你也提到就是要自立自強，無論如何，能夠內部處理的就要處理，像這樣的情況，就是書記官的工作繁重到接送完小孩還要回來加班，週末再加五、六個小時的班，而且各種管考沒有減少，是不是在管理上面可以做一些改變來讓留才這件事情變得有可能？","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T11:38:14.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:38:50.781000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果人員能夠到齊，一切就解決了，就是因為人員沒辦法到齊，其實我們各法院都很努力要讓書記官後端比較庶務型的工作能夠有委外人力來協助，這樣書記官的工作就完全只做前階段的法庭筆錄跟卷證處理，因為我們希望能夠把書記官的工作切一塊出去，讓他的負擔減少。","quality":0.798},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T11:38:51.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:39:11.951000+08:00","text":"我們還有在努力做一個部分，就是讓書記官不要無薪加班，所以要提高他的加班費；另外，我們也運用書記官的升遷制度，有三等升二等、二等升一等的員額配套，讓書記官能夠看得到明天。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:39:13.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:39:27.379000+08:00","text":"好，您剛剛講的是一回事，可是我們在實際上面遇到另外一個狀況，您剛剛一直強調希望人力能夠增加，但是在原本的員額上面，大家都一直在走掉，那就是另外的管理問題了、那就是另外的問題了。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:39:27.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:39:43.989000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下這個數據，這是從112年到114年書記官員額以及到、離職人數的調查表，無論是臺北地院或新北地院，離職的人數都多於到職的人數，我們一個一個來看，我們先看112年的數據，在112年臺北地院到職21人、離職20人；新北地院112年到職24人、離職28人。","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:39:44.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:39:45.410000+08:00","text":"也就是說，你今天所謂的人數，問題不只是你講的人總給你的員額不夠多，就算給你的員額變多了，離職的人還是比到職的人多啊！","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:40:07.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:40:08.803000+08:00","text":"在113年也一模一樣，臺北地院到職28人、離職28人；新北地院到職25人、離職28人。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:40:08.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:40:11.964000+08:00","text":"在114年更誇張了，臺北地院到職50人、離職52人；新北地院到職59人、離職56人。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:40:11.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:40:46.715000+08:00","text":"所以112年、113年、114年連續3年來，員額在那個地方，但是到職的人數跟離職的人數相減之後等於零甚至是負數的情況，我想要請問一下，你們有沒有了解為什麼從112年到114年會有這樣的情況發生？","quality":0.608},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:40:47.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:40:54.558000+08:00","text":"有沒有檢討要怎麼做才能夠讓到職跟離職的人數不要一樣，甚至出去的人數還超過進來的人數呢？","quality":0.39},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝：跟委員報告，當然我必須要說","start":"2026-03-30T11:40:57.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:41:07.526000+08:00","text":"第一個是薪資，這樣的薪資跟外部的工作量來比較，真的留不住他；第二個，為什麼到職後會馬上離開？","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝：跟委員報告，當然我必須要說","start":"2026-03-30T11:41:07.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:41:10.368000+08:00","text":"因為我一進來就是做兩份工作，我看到以後就走了。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝：跟委員報告，當然我必須要說","start":"2026-03-30T11:41:11.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:41:29.994000+08:00","text":"我們現在要努力的就是希望這兩份工作的其中一份工作能夠讓其他委外人員來處理，這是我們最努力的方向，讓他進來以後覺得自己就是只要做一份工作，這樣他才會留職，這個是我們最努力的方向。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝：跟委員報告，當然我必須要說","start":"2026-03-30T11:41:30.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:41:41.081000+08:00","text":"另外一個就是要讓他能夠看到明天，我們希望加薪、提高加班費和職等，我們就是在這個方面用盡全力。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:41:42.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:41:46.480000+08:00","text":"你有信心在115年能夠反轉嗎？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T11:41:46.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:41:47.100000+08:00","text":"沒有信心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:41:47.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:41:49.282000+08:00","text":"沒有信心？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:41:49.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:42:13.820000+08:00","text":"好，我們再看一下您剛剛講的加班這個事情，加班絕對不是只要提高加班費，大家就願意加班，沒有人是願意的，應該是我原本的工作到哪裡，我就做到哪裡，加班是例外，而例外本來就該給加班費，所以就算你把加班費調高，如果你沒有讓他的工作量在一個合理的範圍裡面，就算有加班費，人家也不一定願意做這個工作。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:42:14.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:42:23.264000+08:00","text":"請看一下臺北地院跟新北地院的工作時數，我都列出來了，不過我的時間有限，所以我們看新北地院的部分就好了。","quality":0.617},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:42:23.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:42:37.507000+08:00","text":"新北地院的加班時數從112年的39小時到114年變成44小時，在114年12月平均來到53小時。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:42:37.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:42:44.548000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是說，你們現在一直跟我說你們要調整，你們要讓大家工作的loading變少，可是我從數據上看起來並不是這樣子啊！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:42:44.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:42:51.631000+08:00","text":"從數據上來看是增加的，你看，臺北地院從112年一路到114年，本來開始是平均三十幾到42小時，114年臺北地院幾乎都四十幾小時，114年12月新北地院高達53個小時，這簡直就是過勞的情況嘛！","quality":0.757},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:42:51.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:43:25.933000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是說，你們如果長時間以來有關心這些書記官的加班時數狀況，你們有儘可能去掌握的話，那問題並不在於提高加班費，而是你要儘可能去降低大家加班的時數，請問最後這一點要怎麼樣去改善？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T11:43:26.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:43:36.296000+08:00","text":"就像剛剛跟委員報告的，其實我們從114年就開始要把書記官一部分的工作移給委外人員，那這一段……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:43:37.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:43:38.997000+08:00","text":"你是從114年什麼時候開始做這件事？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T11:43:40.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:43:43.178000+08:00","text":"最早是在我擔任高本院院長任內，我們114年2月就開始做了。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:43:43.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:43:43.998000+08:00","text":"從2月開始？對。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:43:44.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:43:45.539000+08:00","text":"那顯然成效不高啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T11:43:47.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:43:53.058000+08:00","text":"我們是從高本院開始做，我現在要推行到各地院，你們要去落實這一件事。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T11:43:53.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:44:11.927000+08:00","text":"另外，老實說案件量太大，即使切一半出去……為什麼加班這麼多，同樣法官加班也這麼多，除非我們要把法官受案量減少，如果法官受案量不減少，書記官永遠是這樣。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:44:11.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:44:16.609000+08:00","text":"是沒有錯啦，但是你弄到最後都沒有書記官也是一樣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:44:17.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:44:19.911000+08:00","text":"你都沒有書記官了，你一樣這個庭怎麼開呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:44:20.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:44:36.438000+08:00","text":"所以無論如何，我知道面對這樣的挑戰你們是辛苦的，但是你的問題還是得解決，你的問題一天沒有解決，你讓大家每年到職、離職的人數是一樣的，然後你說希望人總再開多少缺，有用嗎？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:44:36.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:44:41.960000+08:00","text":"你開了這麼多缺，到職的人又離職，然後到職減離職等於零，那跟沒有是一樣的嘛！","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:44:42.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:44:47.826000+08:00","text":"所以這以上幾個重點，請你們一定要去釐清，今天非常多委員在關心這件事情……是、是。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-03-30T11:44:48.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:44:54.053000+08:00","text":"希望秘書長可以再多去想想還有沒有其他辦法能夠再調整，謝謝。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-03-30T11:44:54.553000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:44:55.553000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T11:44:55.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:44:58.710143+08:00","text":"謝謝許巧芯委員的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T11:44:59.010143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:45:01.581571+08:00","text":"接下來請林楚茵委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T11:45:01.881571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:45:05.310143+08:00","text":"林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T11:45:05.610143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:45:11.895857+08:00","text":"今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T11:45:12.195857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:45:23.624429+08:00","text":"委員質詢時所要求提供相關資料，或是以書面答復者，就請相關機關儘速送交個別委員以及本會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T11:45:23.924429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:45:33.924429+08:00","text":"委員蔡其昌、吳宗憲所提的書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並且請相關機關以書面答復。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}