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顧部長有請請顧部長"},{"start":11.955,"end":38.587,"text":"部長辛苦了我們今天的主題是年度軍事投資計畫跟財政負擔能力的平衡評估那當然這個在質詢前我特別看了一下這一次這個部裡面的報告這個在裡面的篇幅裡面當然還是花了很大的篇幅跟空間去說明特別預算的一些必要性那也講了在公務預算編列的時候的一些困境這些東西本席都看到了但我想今天排這樣子的議程的重點應該是總體財政能力的負擔"},{"start":39.827,"end":66.223,"text":"所以今天把這個我覺得也不能單看特別預算嘛你應該是看整體台灣的國防支出嘛跟整體台灣的財政狀況有一個綜合性的評估這樣子比較容易能夠消除社會大眾的疑慮也能夠在各黨分歧的狀況之下去找到一定的共識我想部長應該不會反對我這樣的說法吧對 我們事實上在討論這個專案報告要怎麼寫的時候特別是就那個財政負擔能力的部分"},{"start":67.443,"end":86.376,"text":"我們國防部是提需求啦那最後其實要看那個組織總署是的所以我們也沒有辦法在這個報告裡面直接去寫得非常的清楚沒關係組織總署就只能給我多少問題是這不是我的權好如果我講的那個那我國防部的需求我可以提"},{"start":87.441,"end":104.22,"text":"但是不見得能夠被實行 這個我完全理解國防部的危難之處不可能都擺入年度預算嘛這是我們過去這麼多年以來跟的一些狀況 這我想我們在在上禮拜的法案審查討論的時候其實也都有交換過意見 我們都非常的清楚這次大家在討論這個特別預算等等的時候這個淡江的"},{"start":104.981,"end":118.348,"text":"大學的戰研所的助理教授接種他有一篇投書大概把幾個警示我姑且講他是提醒善意的提醒做了一些提醒那今天就討論一下因為我蠻好奇國防部要怎麼樣回應這些問題他說"},{"start":120.729,"end":141.798,"text":"這個連年編列高額的採購特別預算雖然你用特別預算的方式可以直接避免去排擠一般的正式支出也就是說你面對主計總署的壓力但他同時會造成他提醒了三個副作用第一個叫做國防支出的結構失衡第二個是資源力的人力不足的問題第三個是舉債金額的增加我們就一個一個來探討我蠻好奇國防部對於這件事情的意見這個有關於國防"},{"start":143.499,"end":171.115,"text":"支出的結構失衡 概念是這樣子我們國防的支出就全部國防部正常預算大概就三大類人員維持費 人事費用作業維持費 也就是我武器要保養有時候要合理的更新等等那第三個才是大家比較常態比較直觀了解的就是說軍事的投資也就是說購買武器或者是投資新的產線等等大概分成是三塊那麼從國防部的公務預算的表格裡面預算中心整理的"},{"start":172.296,"end":194.561,"text":"大體上你可以看出來近年來是增加增加幅度這我們都不討論了這個大家都很清楚的總是有必要的這個我們都理解但是你要看我今天想要點的是比例的問題也就是在過去的時候原則上這個作業維持費跟軍事投資費用它大概是一個平衡的狀況彼此之間的金額不會差太多越多的武器就代表你未來有越多的維護管養的這樣子的一個需求那從"},{"start":195.681,"end":221.502,"text":"過去這幾年國防部的公務預算來講它是一個相對平衡 相對穩定的一個狀態好 但現在問題來了我們今天提出了新的所謂的特別條例這依照2500億當然它是分年來編列那當然這表示著我們未來武器的採購會大幅的增加那麼武器採購的增加但我沒有看到目前國防部針對武器增加之後未來的作業維持費用的增加做出財政的預估跟說明"},{"start":222.322,"end":245.428,"text":"所以我想這也是這個接種教授有提到的這個會不會造成支出結構的嚴重失衡呢因為現在看起來是一比一啊可是你如果把未來好幾年大概都要加一千多億兩千億的軍事投資的預算那麼這一比一它可能變成一比1.5甚至變成1.2就是大量的採購但是作為維持費我們現在看不到未來的變化趨勢嘛對不對那麼請問這一段國防部的說明是什麼呢"},{"start":245.868,"end":261.86,"text":"那委員我們這個要跟委員報告一下接種教授他裡面提的資訊裡面因為他沒有辦法拿到我們完整的沒關係我都理解你們就回應吧那太除舊裝備是節約我們作為非常重要的一環我舉這次的海馬斯為例"},{"start":262.921,"end":286.571,"text":"海馬士是準備汰除目前我們現役的M118吋流自走炮跟M109A2自走炮那目前這兩個自走炮它的那個年度的作為費的額度都已經佔了相當高的部分到時候等到我們海馬士進來這兩個舊型裝備之後汰除之後就可以節約大量的那個作為費"},{"start":287.952,"end":316.592,"text":"那目前當然我們要解決的主要還是航財的問題因為作為費裡面因應中共敵情威脅的提升航財的消耗事實上一直在提升應該是很高的嘛對不對我們也有一個完整的規劃在我們新機進來之後我們會做一個調控機制讓作為費能夠維持在一個比較可控的狀況您今天答應今天質詢的時間其實是非常短的當然也沒有辦法透過三言兩語把話講清楚我的意思是說我想今天大家想要看到的報告裡面其實是包含一個"},{"start":317.132,"end":336.448,"text":"相對長期的作業維持費就是你如果有合理增加的狀況那你如何避免這一段去做正式的排擠如果你講因為有部分的太主所以你可以有做部分的節約你也要有一個年度非常清楚的表格也就是說預估未來的你特別預算都是要大家授權八年為這樣子的一個規模這本身就很有爭議的事情"},{"start":337.369,"end":362.979,"text":"如果這部分沒有辦法說明清楚 那疑慮就會在所以我今天講的是善意提醒 我想教授寫這個也是善意提醒我們希望看到 會後吧 你就提供吧這八年來有關於作業維持費 未來八年的財政預估哪些項目增加了 哪些項目減少了 每年的數字大概是怎麼樣會不會排擠到 我軍事投資特別預算沒關係啊可是作業維持往上 你是不是還是會面對我國防部扣打不夠啊主計總書又有意見 然後造成一些執行上的困難"},{"start":363.579,"end":377.284,"text":"是不是可以請國防部在會後提供完整8年有關於人員維持、作業維持跟軍事熟知的完整的財務規劃報告提送資料沒問題那給我10秒鐘跟委員報告可以的請委員看一下這個表裡面114年度的作業維持費是1476億是的那我跟委員報告115年我們的作業維持費額度是1990億我們成長的幅度已經"},{"start":387.088,"end":411.435,"text":"差不多34%所以我們在增加軍事投資的同時我們一定會去同步考量作業維持費的預算需求這個先跟委員做個報告所以我才講未來8年增加的不會只是1.25兆或者是不管到最後通過多少數字這個相關的採購的增加一定會上升採購支出會上升作業維持費上升這8年的預估也是要很明確的這樣說明才會清楚這是本席的提醒"},{"start":413.315,"end":435.568,"text":"我們在每一年上五年的兵力整建計畫的時候同時我們會上五年的兵力汰除的規劃我們也考慮到這個橫平性他要如何利用作為費來支撐我們後續新式武器裝備而且現在的武器裝備他的能力可能都比傳統的武器裝備他的效率可能會更高的所以我覺得你資料提供越完整他其實是有助於溝通的好不好"},{"start":436.068,"end":463.435,"text":"第二個他的質疑當然就是有關於志願役人力嘛因為新的編裝新的專業新的什麼但我們的編線筆這個是老問題了嘛待遇增加如果大家又各執一執也沒意思但我想他的質疑不無道理我們也希望國防部在人力調度的方面比如說之前無人機加急卡了好久對不對這些問題你要能夠做減少啊現在如果真的有這個特別預算的編列新式武器的再支出我們的人力的部分要怎麼樣來跟上呢是不是可以請部長簡單回答"},{"start":464.563,"end":491.585,"text":"我們人力的部分在114年度來看我們的邊縣比已經達到80%然後我們資源人數增加了4000人然後我們的流運力也增加我想這個部分我們會來實際來努力那另外也跟委員報告我們現在因為實施一年期的義務役所以一年期的義務役對我們整個相關人力的充實也很重要那當然義務役的部分我們比較有一個"},{"start":493.025,"end":513.471,"text":"長時間的一個從事一個從這一個新訓到駐地到基地到這個聯合作戰的這個能力的整個訓練所以這個能力的部分在EWE他們在他們一般高峰會在他們大學畢業的那一年會形成一個比較穩定的EWE的來源所以我們一方面增加我們的志願役"},{"start":514.271,"end":531.594,"text":"的能力然後志願役的高端的人才然後一方面我們對於151要做一個充足的訓練那當然志願役也要做完全的實戰化的一個訓練所以我們不斷的結合這兩部分那我們希望來因應我們持續未來人員的需求"},{"start":532.034,"end":551.053,"text":"這個本席一路以來都是主張啦就是說隨著戰爭形態的改變專業性的提升科技元素的導入等等未來的專業性其實是很重要的所以志願役我認為是絕對不可或缺的在這一段為什麼我們那麼強化那麼強調相關的待遇的一個提升而且是總體的大幅的提升其實不外乎就是希望國防部有充足的人員"},{"start":551.673,"end":575.323,"text":"那當然這個我們未來有機會討論這個人力擴充的專案報告的時候,我們再來詳細的去談幾個方向,再來跟部長來討論。那我們就一樣,這個提醒,這個人力的部分請國防部,如果可以的話你也可以提供一下報告啦。就是說我配合你的這個軍購,你現在的這個很大的這樣一個構想之後,我的人員,這個相關的配套措施,我希望國防部可以提供更多的資料來以利說明喔。那最後一個部分當然是有關於財政支出的部分嘛。"},{"start":575.663,"end":592.158,"text":"像我們前一段時間通過的這個關稅因應國際歧視的特別預算裡面它其實還有一部分是可以用所謂的稅計剩餘來做處理那當然國共部會員講這幾年經濟成長率不錯啊等等收稅都不錯了那現在如果按照院版這1.25兆我們舉債的比例大概會是多少我...有稅計剩餘"},{"start":599.452,"end":614.816,"text":"外交局外交委會報告的時候 其實包含財政部跟主席總統都有說明我們目前的國家的稅率剩餘大概應該沒有剩多少大部分可能就還是要透過舉債的 但是會遵守財政具體法相關規範來辦理"},{"start":616.164,"end":634.044,"text":"所以特別條例裡面已經就已舉在的這個額度還是不能夠總量不能夠超過那個公共債務法的相關的規定已經有在這裡面有做過因為我們一照2500億是分成八年不是一年編列所以這還在我們可以符合財政紀律的這個"},{"start":636.687,"end":655.303,"text":"這個我要提醒一下部長我們從再大一點的角度來總體考量其實舉債它到最後它也是會有互相排擠的狀況因為很多的重大正式支出比如說國家的重大建設或者是今天也許我們要因應少子女化有大額的投資這些到了最後它都有可能也要思考透過舉債的手段來做處理嘛"},{"start":656.063,"end":677.654,"text":"那同樣如果今天舉債的額度被大量的佔用的時候它到最後還是一樣它只是排擠的項目不一樣以前叫公務預算的排擠或者是特別預算的排擠甚至未來是債務的排擠這也是未來大家會關心的一點這就是為什麼本期今天特別去強調整個今天的主題也好或者是本期今天的質詢的主題也好就是希望它有一個長期的總體的財政評估包含舉債包含人員"},{"start":679.522,"end":700.648,"text":"增補包含作業維持這樣一併的清楚的又說明才比較容易讓大家比較能夠接受國防預算大幅增加的狀況當時在提八年依照兩千五百億的時候就已經有確實在跟院裡面就有做過這樣的評估啦因為部長你講的就只是講說我們會符合財政紀律法的總體規定不夠詳細嘛所以我想逐年的數字嘛"},{"start":700.848,"end":720.829,"text":"總要有一些詳細的數字來做一些討論跟別人到底每一年會佔用多少會不會大額的增加如何從其他的地方檢審這些其實都是解決事情的手段跟方式嘛那國防部提供的越詳細大家才有機會比較容易收束這個大家現在是立場不一樣啊但我們要想辦法解決問題嘛所以在收束共識的過程之中提供很多資料我想是很有必要的啦"},{"start":721.434,"end":740.253,"text":"報告委員這邊補充一下如果說牽扯到國家總體財政包含了以前年齡稅金剩餘以及取債的額度多少我想公安部這邊可能沒辦法提供比較具體的資料因為我們可以就1.25兆的部分我們每年我們可能會跟主席總書做個說明看看他那邊能不能做個"},{"start":740.794,"end":755.976,"text":"我們做一下研究我想這是國家大事這麼大一筆的支撐跨部會的合作總是有必要的對不對我們會跟主委總書討論討論一下嘛因為每一年的狀況都要預估了嘛他們會有一個有一個有一個概算好歹要有預估的東西啦"},{"start":757.017,"end":773.5,"text":"那我再提醒一下因為剛剛很多委員在質詢的時候都有提到比如說發架書啊等等這我們在討論的過程中其實本席有講得非常的清楚嘛我一直在問國防部的是你們自己有心理有把握的時間表是什麼對吧那當然我因為不為難大家所以你講這總會有一個溝通的一些過程但是我也提醒啦有善意提醒嘛"},{"start":773.9,"end":801.46,"text":"如果這些東西時間表可以非常的明確有更清楚的一些輪廓的時候它其實也是有助於達成共識的我覺得今天我們就不要再講立場了但是我們要一起講方法所以本席今天提出的一些這樣的要求希望國防部盡快的整理相關財政負擔的這樣子的一個報告來有助於未來法案也好預算也好的討論可以嗎我們財政負擔的部分我們跟主席總署來討論好不好OK好那就麻煩國防部希望大家可以大家可以最終可以達成共識啦謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:47:14.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:47:14.938000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，顧部長有請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T11:47:14.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:47:14.958000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:47:14.958000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:47:24.955000+08:00","text":"牛委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:47:24.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:47:25.375000+08:00","text":"部長辛苦了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:47:25.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:47:46.924000+08:00","text":"今天的主題是「國軍年度軍事投資計畫與財政負擔能力之動態平衡評估」，在質詢前我特別看了一下這次部裡面的報告，裡面當然還是花了很大的篇幅及空間說明特別預算的一些必要性，也講了在公務預算編列時的一些困境，這些本席都看到了。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:47:47.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:48:10.838000+08:00","text":"但我想今天排這個議程的重點應該是總體財政能力的負擔，所以我覺得也不能單看特別預算，你應該是看整體臺灣的國防支出跟整體臺灣的財政狀況有個綜合性的評估，這樣比較容易能夠消除社會大眾的疑慮，也能夠在各黨分歧的狀況之下找到一定的共識，我想部長應該不會反對我這樣的說法吧？","quality":0.992},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:48:11.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:48:26.907000+08:00","text":"對，我們事實上在討論這個專案報告要怎麼寫的時候，特別是就財政負擔能力的部分，我們國防部是提需求，最後其實要看主計總處。是的。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:48:27.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:48:29.929000+08:00","text":"所以我們也沒有辦法在這個報告裡面直接……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:48:30.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:48:32.591000+08:00","text":"去寫得非常清楚，沒關係！","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:48:32.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:48:39.356000+08:00","text":"說主計總處就只能給我多少，問題是這不是我的權，如果國防部的需求我可以提……","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:48:40.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:48:43.304000+08:00","text":"但是不見得能夠被實行，這個我完全理解國防部的為難之處。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:48:43.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:48:44.586000+08:00","text":"不可能都擺入年度預算嘛！對的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:48:44.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:48:46.788000+08:00","text":"這是我們過去這麼多年以來的……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:48:47.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:48:48.010000+08:00","text":"的一些狀況，這我知道。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:48:48.010000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:48:49.010000+08:00","text":"狀況來做說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:48:48.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:48:53.036000+08:00","text":"我們在上禮拜的法案審查討論的時候其實也都有交換過意見，我們都非常的清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:48:53.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:49:11.328000+08:00","text":"這次大家在討論特別預算等等的時候，淡江大學戰研所助理教授揭仲有一篇投書大概有幾個警示，我姑且講他是提醒，善意的做了一些提醒，今天就討論一下，因為我滿好奇國防部要怎麼樣回應這些問題。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:49:11.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:49:30.697000+08:00","text":"他說連年編列高額採購特別預算，雖然用特別預算的方式可以直接避免排擠一般的政事支出，也就是說你們面對主計總處的壓力，但是他提醒它同時會造成3個副作用：第一個叫做國防支出結構失衡；第二個是志願役人力不足的問題；第三個是舉債金額的增加。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:49:31.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:49:34.078000+08:00","text":"我們就一個、一個來探討，我滿好奇國防部對於這件事情的意見。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:49:34.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:49:58.892000+08:00","text":"有關於國防支出的結構失衡，其概念是這樣子，我們國防支出，就是全部國防部正常預算大概就三大類，人員維持費就是人事費用；作業維持費也就是武器要保養，有時候要合理的更新等等；第三個才是大家覺得比較常態、比較直觀了解的就是軍事投資，也就是購買武器或者是投資新的產線等等，大概是分成這三塊。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:49:59.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:50:11.717000+08:00","text":"從國防部的公務預算表格裡面，這是預算中心所整理的，大體上可以看出來近年來幅度是增加的，這我們都不討論了，這個大家都很清楚，總是有必要的，這個我們都理解。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:50:12.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:50:33.805000+08:00","text":"但是我今天想要點出的是比例問題，也就是在過去原則上作業維持費跟軍事投資費用大概是一個平衡的狀況，彼此之間的金額不會差太多，買越多的武器就代表未來有越多的維護管養的需求，從過去這幾年國防部的公務預算來講，它是一個相對平衡、相對穩定的狀態。好！","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:50:33.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:51:01.264000+08:00","text":"但是現在問題來了，今天提出了新的特別條例，1兆2,500億是分年編列，表示未來武器的採購會大幅增加，有了武器採購的增加，我卻沒有看到目前國防部針對武器增加之後，未來作業維持費用的增加做出財政的預估跟說明，所以我想這也是揭仲教授提到的，會不會造成支出結構的嚴重失衡呢？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:51:01.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:51:18.408000+08:00","text":"因為現在看起來是一比一，可是如果把未來好幾年大概都要加一千多億、兩千億的軍事投資預算，那麼這一比一可能變成一比一點五，甚至變成一點二，就是大量採購，但是作業維持費我們現在看不到未來的變化趨勢，請問這一段國防部的說明是什麼呢？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-03-30T11:51:19.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:51:26.814000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們要跟委員報告一下，揭仲教授提的資訊裡面，因為他沒有辦法拿到我們汰除舊裝備的計畫……","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:51:26.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:51:28.555000+08:00","text":"沒有完整的，沒關係，我都理解，你們就回應吧！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-03-30T11:51:29.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:52:10.679000+08:00","text":"汰除舊裝備是節約我們作維費非常重要的一環，我舉這次的海馬士為例，海馬士是準備汰除現役的M110八寸榴自走砲及M109A2自走砲，目前這兩個自走砲的年度作維費額度都已經占了相當高的部分，到時候等到海馬士進來，這兩個舊型裝備汰除之後就可以節約大量的作維費，目前當然我們要解決的主要還是航材的問題，作維費裡面因為因應中共敵情威脅的提升，航材的消耗事實上一直在提升。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:52:10.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:52:11.760000+08:00","text":"應該是很高的，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:52:11.760000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:52:12.760000+08:00","text":"理論上是高的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-03-30T11:52:11.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:52:21.226000+08:00","text":"我們也有一個完整的規劃，在新機進來之後，我們會做調控機制，讓作維費能夠維持在一個比較可控的狀況。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:52:22.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:52:26.169000+08:00","text":"因為今天質詢的時間其實是非常短的，當然也沒有辦法透過三言兩語把話講清楚。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:52:26.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:52:37.819000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說，今天大家想要看到的報告裡面其實是包含一個相對長期的作業維持費，如果有合理增加的狀況，如何避免這段去做政事的排擠？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:52:37.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:53:22.541000+08:00","text":"如果你講因為有部分的汰除，所以可以做部分的節約，你也要有一個年度非常清楚的表格，也就是預估未來……你特別預算就是要大家授權八年有這樣的規模，這本身就是很有爭議的事情，如果這部分沒有辦法說明清楚，那疑慮就會在，所以我今天是善意提醒，我想教授寫這個也是善意提醒，我們希望看到……會後你就提供關於作業維持費未來八年的財政預估中哪些項目增加了、哪些項目減少了，每年的數字大概是怎麼樣、會不會排擠到，像軍事投資用特別預算沒關係，可是作業維持費往上，你是不是還是會面對國防部quota不夠，主計總處又有意見，然後造成執行上的一些困難，是不是可以請國防部在會後提供完整八年有關於人員維持、作業維持跟軍事投資的完整財務規劃報告？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"謝局長其賢","start":"2026-03-30T11:53:23.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:53:26.203000+08:00","text":"提送資料沒問題，給我10秒鐘跟委員報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:53:26.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:53:26.463000+08:00","text":"可以的，請。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"謝局長其賢","start":"2026-03-30T11:53:26.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:53:41.748000+08:00","text":"請委員看一下這個表裡面114年度的作業維持費是1,476億，我跟委員報告，115年我們的作業維持費額度是1,990億，成長的幅度已經差不多34%。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:53:41.748000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:53:42.748000+08:00","text":"很高了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:53:42.748000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:53:43.748000+08:00","text":"表示多買一定增加嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝局長其賢","start":"2026-03-30T11:53:41.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:53:49.451000+08:00","text":"所以我們在增加軍事投資的同時，我們一定會同步考量作業維持費的預算需求，這先跟委員做個報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:53:50.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:54:04.415000+08:00","text":"所以我才講，未來八年增加的不會只是1.25兆，或者是不管到最後通過多少數字，相關採購的支出一定會上升，作業維持費上升，這八年的預估也是要很明確的，這樣說明才會清楚，這是本席的提醒。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-03-30T11:54:04.415000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:54:05.415000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我可不可以也是一樣借10秒鐘？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:54:05.415000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:54:06.415000+08:00","text":"可以，沒問題，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-03-30T11:54:06.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:54:23.785000+08:00","text":"我們在每一年上五年兵力整建計畫的時候，同時我們會上五年兵力汰除規劃，我們也考慮到衡平性，要如何利用作維費支撐我們後續新式武器裝備，而且現在武器裝備的能力可能都比傳統的武器裝備……","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:54:23.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:54:25.206000+08:00","text":"它的效率等等可能會更高。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-03-30T11:54:25.206000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:54:26.206000+08:00","text":"效率會更高。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:54:25.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:54:28.548000+08:00","text":"對，所以我覺得資料你提供得越完整其實是有助於溝通的，好不好？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-03-30T11:54:28.548000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:54:29.548000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:54:29.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:54:55.795000+08:00","text":"第二個，他的質疑當然就是有關於志願役人力，因為新的編裝、新的專業、新的什麼，但是我們的編現比是老問題了，待遇增加如果大家又各執一詞也沒意思，但我想他的質疑不無道理，我們也希望國防部在人力調度方面，比如說之前無人機加給卡了好久，這些問題你要能夠減少，現在如果真的有特別預算的編列、新式武器的支出，我們人力的部分要怎麼樣跟上呢？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:54:55.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:54:56.415000+08:00","text":"是不是可以請部長簡單回答？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:54:57.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:55:12.175000+08:00","text":"人力的部分，以114年度來看，我們的編現比已經達到80%，志願役人數增加了4,000人，我們的留營率也增加，我想這個部分我們會持續來努力。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:55:12.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:55:21.362000+08:00","text":"另外也跟委員報告，我們現在因為實施一年期的義務役，一年期的義務役對我們整個相關人力的充實也很重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:55:22.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:55:44.650000+08:00","text":"義務役的部分，因為有一個比較長時間的訓練，從新訓到駐地、到基地、到聯合作戰能力的整個訓練，所以義務役的部分，一般高峰會在他們大學畢業的那一年，會形成一個比較穩定的義務役來源。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:55:44.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:56:04.574000+08:00","text":"所以我們一方面增加志願役的人力以及志願役的高專人才，一方面我們對於義務役做充足的訓練，當然志願役也要做完全實戰化的訓練，我們不斷結合這兩部分，希望因應未來持續的人員需求。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:56:05.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:56:20.129000+08:00","text":"本席一路以來都是主張，隨著戰爭型態的改變、專業性的提升、科技元素的導入等等，未來的專業性其實是很重要的，所以志願役我認為是絕對不可或缺的，為什麼我們那麼強調相關待遇的提升？","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:56:20.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:56:30.536000+08:00","text":"而且是總體大幅的提升，不外乎就是希望國防部有充足的人員，當然我們未來有機會討論人力擴充的專案報告時，再來詳細地去談幾個方向，再來跟部長討論。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:56:31.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:56:45.022000+08:00","text":"一樣，這是提醒，人力的部分，如果可以的話，國防部也可以提供一下報告，就是配合你的軍購、現在這樣一個很大的構想，相關人員及配套措施，我希望國防部可以提供更多資料以利說明。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:56:45.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:57:04.918000+08:00","text":"最後一個部分當然是有關於財政支出的部分，像我們前段時間通過的關稅因應國際情勢的特別預算裡面，其實還有一部分是可以用歲計賸餘來做處理，當然國防部也講這幾年經濟成長率不錯、稅收都不錯，如果按照院版的1.25兆，我們舉債的比例大概會是多少？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"謝局長其賢","start":"2026-03-30T11:57:12.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:57:22.414000+08:00","text":"報告委員，上一次在外交及國防委員會報告的時候，包含財政部跟主計總處都有說明，目前國家的歲計賸餘應該沒有剩多少……對啊！","quality":0.642},{"speaker":"謝局長其賢","start":"2026-03-30T11:57:23.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:57:27.796000+08:00","text":"大部分可能還是要透過舉債，但是會遵守財政紀律法相關規範來辦理。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:57:27.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T11:57:30.706000+08:00","text":"所以意思就是說……","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:57:30.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:57:47.024000+08:00","text":"我們的特別條例裡面規定舉債的額度總量不能夠超過公共債務法的相關規定，已經有在這裡面做規範了，因為我們的1兆2,500億是分成八年，不是一年編列，所以還在符合財政紀律的規範下來進行。","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:57:49.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:58:08.163000+08:00","text":"這個我要提醒一下部長，我們從再大一點的角度來總體考量，其實舉債到最後也是會有互相排擠的狀況，因為很多的重大政事支出，比如說國家的重大建設，或者是也許我們因為要因應少子女化，有大額的投資，這些部分到最後都有可能也要思考透過舉債的手段來做處理。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:58:09.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:58:21.970000+08:00","text":"同樣的，如果今天舉債的額度被大量占用的時候，到最後還是一樣，它只是排擠的項目不一樣，也就是公務預算的排擠，或是特別預算的排擠，甚至未來是債務的排擠，這也是未來大家會關心的一點。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:58:21.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:58:39.204000+08:00","text":"這就是為什麼本席要特別去強調今天的主題也好，或者是本席今天質詢的主題也好，就是希望有一個長期的、總體的財政評估，包含舉債、包含人員增補、包含作業維持，這樣一併清楚地說明，才比較容易讓大家能夠接受國防預算大幅增加的狀況。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:58:39.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:58:45.126000+08:00","text":"當時在提八年1兆2,500億的時候，就已經跟院裡面有做過這樣的評估。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:58:45.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:59:13.749000+08:00","text":"對，因為部長你講的就只是說我們會符合財政紀律法的總體規定，不夠詳細嘛，所以我說要有逐年的數字，總要有詳細的數字來做討論跟辯論，到底每一年會占用多少、會不會大額的增加、如何從其他的地方節省，這些其實都是解決事情的手段跟方式，國防部提供得越詳細，大家才有機會比較容易收束，因為大家現在立場不一樣，但我們要想辦法解決問題嘛，所以在收束共識的過程之中，提供很多資料，我想是很有必要的。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"謝局長其賢","start":"2026-03-30T11:59:14.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:59:33.253000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我這邊補充一下，如果牽扯到國家總體財政，包含以前年度歲計賸餘以及舉債額度多少，我想國防部這邊可能沒辦法提供比較具體的資料，因為我們可以就1.25兆的部分，我們每年……我們可能會跟主計總處做個說明，看看他那邊能不能做個提供或說明。","quality":0.858},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:59:33.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:59:39.943000+08:00","text":"你們做一下研究，因為我想這是國家大事，這麼大一筆的支撐，跨部會的合作總是有必要的，對不對？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:59:39.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:59:42.386000+08:00","text":"我們會跟主計總處討論……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:59:42.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:59:43.968000+08:00","text":"討論一下嘛，因為每一年的狀況都要預估……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T11:59:44.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:59:47.453000+08:00","text":"對，他們會有一個概算的預估。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:59:47.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T11:59:48.815000+08:00","text":"對，好歹要有預估的東西，是吧？有、有。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T11:59:50.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T12:00:01.012000+08:00","text":"我再提醒一下，因為剛剛很多委員在質詢的時候都有提到，比如說發價書等等，我們在討論過程中，其實本席有講得非常清楚，我一直在問國防部的是，你們自己心裡有把握的時間表是什麼，對吧？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T12:00:01.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T12:00:26.254000+08:00","text":"我不為難大家，但總有一個溝通的過程，我也善意提醒，如果這些東西的時間表可以非常明確，有更清楚的一些輪廓的時候，這其實也是有助於達成共識的，我覺得今天我們就不要再講立場，但是我們要一起想方法，所以本席今天提出這樣的要求，希望國防部儘快整理相關財政負擔的報告，有助於未來法案及預算的討論，可以嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-03-30T12:00:27.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T12:00:28.636000+08:00","text":"財政負擔的部分，我們會跟主計總處來討論。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-03-30T12:00:30.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-30T12:00:34.460000+08:00","text":"好，那就麻煩國防部，希望大家最終可以達成共識，謝謝。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-30T12:00:34.960000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-30T12:00:38.674286+08:00","text":"接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}