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搶光 燒光的傷光陣色毀掉了 摧毀我們的部落掠奪了我們所有的土地這樣的一個歷史的傷痛我們從另外一個角度來看"},{"start":238.052,"end":250.87,"text":"我們過去台灣所屠殺的原住民的一個事實第一個太魯閣戰爭約六百到一千人死亡霧社事件約六百到八百人原住民的死亡"},{"start":252.076,"end":279.813,"text":"第三 第二次霧社事件從兩百到五百個人死亡第四 李潘戰爭整體約數千人到兩萬人死亡尤其是屠殺台灣人將近六十萬賴總統你對這樣的一個被屠殺的幾十萬人對得起這樣的一個我們真正的屬於台灣人嗎院長 等一下 主委你再回應"},{"start":283.26,"end":295.115,"text":"你要回答我請委員能夠理解對歷史我們只有了解歷史才能從了解真相之後從各個角度去寬恕去原諒過去歷史帶來的各種災難"},{"start":298.419,"end":312.702,"text":"台灣這塊土地從荷蘭人、西班牙人到滿清、到日本、到國民政府承受了太多太多的苦難不同族群、不同世代的人民有不同的記憶"},{"start":313.723,"end":331.469,"text":"他們的記憶都存在他們的生命當中所以總統從歷史的角度來說出台灣歷代以來所有的遭遇代表的一種記憶代表的一種對歷史追求真相我們現在重要的當然這是你的論述"},{"start":333.03,"end":354.882,"text":"如果從歷史角度應該先講台灣的主人原住民過去傷害被傷害被殺害的被殺光的被搶光的被裸獵的這樣的一個歷史傷害應該呈現在國人面前應該總統要講我們原住民是最受傷害的然後你先抬到台灣來那把歷史根據再來做一個係數"},{"start":356.663,"end":384.131,"text":"這才是一個對我們原住民這當然也是歷史過程中的一部分我原住民記得我說過原住民是台灣過去的主人現在台灣是我們共同的家園我希望我們更能尊重原住民的未來的發展既然政府要這樣的對原住民尊重可是他們現在的生活咧依然到現在沒有任何的進步對地方的部落的發展包含任何的產業經濟到目前"},{"start":386.031,"end":402.931,"text":"政府對原住民的照顧是有增加的院長你看得清楚到目前沒有進步反而是退步因為太有政治手段在裡面參差了我們原住民的議題我們原住民非常善良而且也配合國家整個推動的政策"},{"start":403.471,"end":428.229,"text":"他不是沒有聲音今天我們身為民意代表我們要廣納全國的原住民的民意來這個地方對院長給你報告希望往後希望你們在執政的過程對原住民的尊重包含歷史的定位包含現在要帶我們怎麼樣如何把我們的生活過得更好諸位"},{"start":430.384,"end":446.796,"text":"陳志偉你承認這歷史的傷痛我想這樣我想這總統相關的話言他是希望社會來正視這個危險時期我們所受的人權的侵害我們最主要是從中記起教訓"},{"start":447.523,"end":468.552,"text":"要珍惜今天得來不易的民主憲政的這個體制那院裡面我們也透過轉型正義的匯報來督導落實戰後原住民的轉型正義我現在回答你我現在回答我是這些是不是事實歷史過去裡面所發生的剛剛我念的幾項被殺害的是不是事實"},{"start":469.758,"end":497.204,"text":"你回答就好了對我們從中就是要記起這個教訓當然危險時代總是有一些有這樣的事情發生過我們是要記起這個教訓所謂記起教訓是怎麼樣台獨嗎台獨嗎不是就是希望說我們從這個教訓當中我們怎麼樣來珍惜我們現在的這個民主憲政的這個成果啦好謝謝 謝謝主委我想交通部部長"},{"start":502.287,"end":529.565,"text":"主委請下部長是部長,你當我是菜鳥還是什麼?我從來不覺得你是菜鳥我再三延伸的來親口的告訴你了綠島現在的問題所在我從來沒有要求你要做什麼"},{"start":531.909,"end":557.6,"text":"福果利民的事情當然我一定要珍惜所以我很客氣的告訴你我曾經跟你是一個同事念在一個同事當中所以不找你任何的議題但今天我只是拜託你公平正義在哪裡我拜託你 你當我是傻瓜你不要浩呆浩呆的專業 專業都沒有做得到只要求你來幫忙你連一個幫忙都沒有"},{"start":558.803,"end":587.976,"text":"委員我們就您指教的事情我們共同來討論我本來很客氣的當面在這個地方來拜託你今天針對綠島的事情現在我們來看一下為提升台東往返綠島海星能量以舒適感綠島是相公所經營的公船大五輪日前已在高雄的交船進入整修那本席二度"},{"start":588.596,"end":602.885,"text":"在這個地方 我要讓院長知道本來這個事情不是鋪上檯面因為這個預算沒有那麼多然後整修以購買的補助的經費至今乃為獲得同意根據調查所有的外 這個外領導"},{"start":605.606,"end":621.194,"text":"現僅有立島沒有公傳按照比例原則是立島的民眾極度不滿這個本來你們應該比例原則而且我要你們重新檢討你們有來報告給我了沒有你一個報告都沒有"},{"start":622.074,"end":648.276,"text":"委員我在這邊跟您說明你當我是什麼你要不要讓我說要不然我現在你讓我盯上你們交通部你不要讓我客氣你要不要讓我說明請讓部長說明你看一下嘛不要讓你說明這艘船幾年的你知道嗎為什麼他們現在現在你要猜數要補數給他們他們要補數要買來的船已經幾年的您知道嗎那你說你現在買來評估要猜數然後要給他們補數他們不要補數"},{"start":650.538,"end":673.695,"text":"我們要按照福國利民要長久久安,讓他們能夠比例人選,以豐平的立場上的角度,你應該要初心思考,重新檢討才對啊28年,修理起來要6000多萬,目的符合經濟效益你們單位有沒有跟我們報告?沒有嘛那你要我跟你們報告啊,我現在要跟你們報告,你們要不要聽?"},{"start":674.892,"end":685.703,"text":"那為什麼一定要在這個地方執行呢你要我去你辦公室報告你也可以來要求我們去報告你專業在哪裡所有現在的離島都有公傳"},{"start":687.199,"end":706.677,"text":"那我要你們檢討,然後你們再思考然後今天就算是你們蘋果這個舊船不能使用那就不能使用,你們可以再提另一個方案,不是說要拆屬拆屬然後來補助給他們,他們要的是這樣的嗎?補助這個我們要看綠島相關所的提出申請啊要看綠島相關所的提出申請啊"},{"start":711.241,"end":726.478,"text":"我邀求過你交通部你任何道路嗎只有這一件而已第一件我要盯上你們交通部了您跟我說這件事那我們的航港也確實評估了怎麼處理啊也跟您說的評估就是目前船已經28年要花6000多萬"},{"start":727.979,"end":745.194,"text":"為什麼當我在等你告訴我的時候你卻沒有來跟我報告現在一定要在檯面上來指責你越造輪目前載客率五成而已貨輪載客率三成而已委員我聽起來部長對現狀是了解的"},{"start":745.774,"end":772.576,"text":"而且對您提出的這個方式他也有進行相當的調查所以他知道花這麼一筆錢修一部的舊船或許將來在使用上在安全上都值得勝利只是部長他應該進一步能夠提出一個跟委員商討如何來解決這個問題我剛才就是應該這樣子嘛可是為什麼一定要再次質詢你沒有 我要質詢你你要讓他瞭解之後在此前你讓我委員相見告訴你然後你把我當成菜牛是不是啊"},{"start":772.776,"end":783.972,"text":"他了解事實調查清楚他也可以下一步再提出一個方案這不是調查報告院長院長從去年到現在已經一年多了"},{"start":785.905,"end":786.045,"text":"時間暫停 黃委員"},{"start":814.378,"end":842.17,"text":"副院長 陳部長 我想我們就互相彼此尊重理系溝通 展開有優質的政策對話好不好 黃委員 左院長 陳部長是 我報告很多委員對部長都相當的肯定他一定會有後續的謝謝主席 保安院長本來我是好言相欠我想當面跟教文部長告訴他有這麼一回事"},{"start":843.82,"end":855.447,"text":"這個不是一算多寡是對立島要公平正義人口縱然是沒有那麼多但是為他們的交通公算"},{"start":856.547,"end":874.282,"text":"絕對有利這是長久久安的事情不是為了這個船已經老舊28年了然後我必須要翻修必須要付出這樣的這一筆錢可能好不值得必須我就用拆除的方法來補助給你"},{"start":874.682,"end":901.781,"text":"那請問一下在比例原則在哪裡公傳就是沒有嘛那你應該要檢討那你們內部裡面應該要跟我報告喔我等了一年多了委員這件事要看綠島鄉公所他們希望怎麼做您也可以來開協調會我已經跟你們講了嘛本務卿的祖密都已經跟你講 跟你報告了嘛你現在還當什麼不知道當不知道 當傻瓜是不是不要在那邊好呆你看什麼"},{"start":903.402,"end":905.543,"text":"政府對綠島的各種的應該有的建設實在是不會落後不會少的"},{"start":921.488,"end":950.629,"text":"我記得我去的時候關於學校的整建我們每一年都因為颱風來也撥下了相當的款項這都是應該的況且我記得好像綠島整個鐵路線的地下化我們也做了很多那要不要重新檢討公平正義要不要重新檢討我看部長在瞭解清楚沒有問題我們可以來商討啊您也可以開協調會啊我們一起來商討嘛找綠島鄉公署大家一起來討論看要怎麼解決給你兩個禮拜好不好"},{"start":952.861,"end":954.145,"text":"所以您不參與這件事,我們直接找綠島相公所嗎?"},{"start":961.074,"end":987.916,"text":"還是你們檢討 討論出來啊討論出來兩個禮拜你們分析看能不能啊對不對以現況的要求我們已經分析出來沒有經濟價值我跟你講沒有經濟價值是公平正義的問題嘛因為我要新的版本沒問題我們來討論嘛好 給你一個禮拜好 請下所以到底是兩個禮拜還是一個禮拜一個禮拜好了好 沒有問題我們來商討好好 謝謝"},{"start":992.608,"end":1002.799,"text":"有請國防部長麻煩請國防部備選跟黃委員報告今天部長下午接見貴賓現在副部長徐部長好黃委員好"},{"start":1015.626,"end":1037.719,"text":"首先先強調一個對美採購武器沒有人反對但很多人卻有質疑和擔心那副部長你知不知道為什麼主要是交貨的進度讓大家擔憂根據今年的二月這個TVBS所民調的將近59%的民眾同意經過對台灣的安檢"},{"start":1043.922,"end":1064.148,"text":"有幫助但是同時也有56%受訪者擔心美國經受延宕交貨其實就是證明本行所剛剛所說的支持對美軍的侵購但是有所餘力以目前你們所訂出來的"},{"start":1064.628,"end":1064.748,"text":"第2是"},{"start":1084.638,"end":1100.364,"text":"AMG-154C聯合具外精準的一個武器原定2025-26交付限制拖延到2027-28那另外第三是"},{"start":1101.104,"end":1101.764,"text":"委員那個是這樣"},{"start":1121.733,"end":1133.641,"text":"關於目前延宕的品項的確是您所說的這三項那我們持續的跟美方溝通那麼相關的這個延宕這幾個產線F16我剛去看過了"},{"start":1139.005,"end":1163.265,"text":"目前F16的產線在物料跟人員上面並沒有什麼摯愛主要是因為F16不大可拐動這個是為我們台灣設計的所以它是一個新的構型它必須要不斷去是非才能把新的系統調教好然後再回饋產線去做調教所以它的時間沒有辦法確定但是我去看了產線 產線上面"},{"start":1166.194,"end":1187.127,"text":"66架裡面已經59架都在裝修了那我問你武器的交付好延宕是不是一個事實回答我就好這三項這三項的確但是呢這個今年是像那個F16嘛是到今年要交付但是到今年為止目前是還沒有可是已經有在是非了對嘛現在回答我"},{"start":1188.346,"end":1210.941,"text":"這三項也好武器沒有交付是不是一個四十四就好了嘛但是很多也已經交付啦很多正常還有一項是超前的當中有三項剛剛副長提到其中一項的因素那因為這個跟國際的因素也相當關係我們講一個必須要一個承認齁即使以合約來看只有三項延宕但是這個三項對國軍"},{"start":1212.942,"end":1232.127,"text":"的戰力非常的影響很大因為這三項你們提出的剛剛講的是225億但是現在我們以美國卡托研究所2025的11月報告表示延宕金額高達1億"},{"start":1233.527,"end":1260.792,"text":"新台幣6773億元那雖然這個未交付的累積金額包含生產中因美方產能排期而延後的一個這個督算進去但是實際上也反映出美國對外經濟受益系統長期低效風險規避加上產業基礎無法快速擴產的系統問題在於"},{"start":1263.212,"end":1289.295,"text":"德朗公司戰略暨國際研究中心的智庫報告也多出指出美國工業基礎無法對台灣的和烏克蘭的一個高需求所以這個就是一個問題所在那延宕就是延宕那今天剛提到的6730億就是我們購買的武器到現在是吧"},{"start":1289.977,"end":1315.671,"text":"不過我們的付款是隨著他的交付而進行的所以如果還沒有交付我們的錢還是並沒有轉移過去這是第一個事情第二個事情呢如果說美國的產線這個有所摯愛這不是只對於中華民國台灣啊他對全球都是一樣這是第二點第三點如果我們不向美國買有什麼別的來源可以買嗎問題是現在沒有"},{"start":1316.391,"end":1345.068,"text":"所以並不表示說某些武器延宕大部分武器都是按時交因為這樣我們就不購買武器了我想不能因噎廢食吧我想延宕就是延宕這國人都已經知道現在我們重新的檢討儘快把武器交付給國內增加我們國際的戰力這才是一個真正要解決問題的人好請坐那個原民會主委麻煩再請原民會備詢"},{"start":1358.715,"end":1383.019,"text":"我想這也跟院長知道外交部都提出總和外交外交的這樣的一個政策在林部長在總和外交的過程裡面我想一定有一套的績效因為我在外交國防我常常去了解在外交國防的一些總和外交包含南東以西民主推動的一些政策"},{"start":1383.639,"end":1411.153,"text":"本席在這個地方特別提出對於整個原民會會要不要再增加而且如何做一個橫向聯繫因為南島語系民主我想這是一旦在從委上任跟外交部的部長都已經提到既然你們提出的總和外交那我就提出原民外交包含南島語系如何結合"},{"start":1411.793,"end":1428.73,"text":"这一些南岛语系的民族将近三四亿人口的这样的一个过程因为我们常常对着我们的外交困境一直处在一个没有办法再拓展那如何借用我们南岛语系的民族里面做结合"},{"start":1429.41,"end":1443.654,"text":"然後總和外交包含原民會的扮演的角色非常重要原民會的扮演角色也是要跟外交部做一個橫向聯繫所以應該要設置原住民國際處"},{"start":1446.115,"end":1469.703,"text":"因為現在原住民的這個國際組只有預算只有兩千萬而且你如何把我們的南島語系的民族再推展到這個亞太民族裡面按照我們不能依賴著外交部外交部有外交部的專責我想原民會原民會本身就有專責"},{"start":1470.803,"end":1496.554,"text":"对常常推动的南岛语系的民主而且如果成立我们人民会成立一个国际组然后跟外交部配合总和外交来对整个亚太民主的南岛语系我想有助于我们国内国家对于外交的政策的困境扩展到我们的事业我想院长你认不认同我的想法"},{"start":1497.635,"end":1512.711,"text":"謝謝委員肯定林佳龍部長率領外交部推出總和外交甚至還有榮邦計畫等等這都是過去幾年我們很少有的一個外交接觸目前也持續在運作當中至於原名"},{"start":1513.712,"end":1534.211,"text":"的部分在人民會的綜合規劃處當中就有一個國際事務的專職機構所以國際事務組現在要退展的沒有辦法發揮嗎但是所有的部會對外的關係都應該在外交部總和外交大的計畫當中逐步推動"},{"start":1534.972,"end":1550.738,"text":"那我認為我也會要求外交部不會去忽略南島國家對我們應該有的接觸甚至他跟我們有某些文化的相同更有利於我們互相的接觸這個我請外交部可以再補充一下好 待會你再回答我我也會"},{"start":1552.899,"end":1568.299,"text":"原住民事務委員會自民國86年1997年設立至今已經28年了原住民農漁林因分屬各部會業者導致有五個問題長期的"},{"start":1571.242,"end":1596.935,"text":"存在那既然很多現在是業務都在圓明會重重之務為什麼因為圓明會直接對整個全國的原住民的一些農漁林包含南島語系的民主的推展他們是一個直接跟他們有關係的所以我的意思說既然28年了那我應該要設立的是什麼就是國際組配合"},{"start":1598.769,"end":1610.54,"text":"我們總體外交總和外交跟這個外交部那農漁林那配合農業部應該要增設原住民委員會增設農漁林處這樣的話更能夠貼近"},{"start":1615.865,"end":1635.304,"text":"民意貼信農人貼信漁民包含南島以西的民意所裡面推展我想 四位好 謝謝委員謝謝委員對我們這個延民會這邊對外交跟農漁業的能量的這個考量但我要跟委員報告依據這個中央行政機關的組織基準法的規定"},{"start":1638.167,"end":1655.366,"text":"我們會裡面最多就是成立六個處但是我跟委員報告有沒有這個處跟有沒有做這個事情是不一樣的我們一樣像譬如講在這個中長城的計畫在原住民的國際外交的部分我們院裡面也編列了5.2億的"},{"start":1657.611,"end":1677.378,"text":"未來的六年來處理這個事情因為我沒有辦法再增加處但是有這樣的預算你不要固本也不要固守長期的傳統的概念從蔡英文總統到現在我們的賴總統設置了多少部門設置了多少部門"},{"start":1678.905,"end":1693.625,"text":"我們要創造新的議題讓我們民眾百姓老百姓尤其是農人漁民最能直接感受原民會的恩澤德正啊是吧"},{"start":1694.065,"end":1719.926,"text":"你要去創造你要去徵詢那你可以說服我們這些立法委員我們要跟行政院來報告請行政院拜託拜託能夠徵涉原住民事務委員會的農漁林署包含我們的國際署結合外交部的總和外交不就是一個解決之道嗎那要不然我們的範圍沒有跨出去我跟委員報告"},{"start":1721.548,"end":1728.018,"text":"農業部本來就是在照顧我們所有的農民農業部請叫部長來農業部部長我直接講一句話就好農業部長來外交部請回農業部部長請備詢"},{"start":1737.953,"end":1762.601,"text":"我們這個中央政府組織啊他設定是一定的數目一定的量人所以是不是有外交或是農業部的事情不能做檢討院長你們就要思考從蔡英文總統包含賴總統現在設置多少的部門都是依法設置那你現在的很多的一些章程憲法要怎麼改的就要看你們怎麼改啊部長農業部長部長"},{"start":1768.273,"end":1773.5,"text":"農業部長有我跟委員說明一下你不要聽馬沙羅"},{"start":1778.612,"end":1787.562,"text":"我聽不到啦我聽不到啦聽不到嘛但是事情做得到啦可以做事情啦我跟委員報告農業部針對原民部落特別提出一個原地再現"},{"start":1800.054,"end":1823.308,"text":"只知道原民會的原民化那我今天我要求補助我要跟眾你不會聽我們原住民的辛苦跟他們內心的吶喊裡面你如何了解所以嘛農藝林署是不是成立一個嘛現在最簡單了嘛如果原民會什麼步道成立一個那就跟院長一樣啦"},{"start":1824.537,"end":1849.483,"text":"沒有 今天我們講一個貼近民意 貼近原住民的事務我們很多原住民不會懂得國語不會懂得講的台語但是 原民會貴罪能夠貼近原住民事務可以聆聽他們的辛苦 他們需要的是什麼我跟委員報告在原住民輔導的時候我們都有原住民的同仁一起來協助我問你 原住民的同仁 現在要怎麼辦"},{"start":1862.759,"end":1865.926,"text":"方委員報告時間已到諮詢時間時間已到原住民話怎麼說"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:30:33.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:30:34.664000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:30:34.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:30:37.986000+08:00","text":"有請行政院院長及原民會主委。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T14:30:37.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:30:45.071000+08:00","text":"麻煩請卓院長、原民會主委備詢。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:30:45.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:30:45.251000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:30:50.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:30:51.056000+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:30:51.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:31:01.279000+08:00","text":"從早上已經體會到院長目前給所有立委的質詢回應，已經有相當的誠意。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:31:02.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:31:02.640000+08:00","text":"這是應該的。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:31:02.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:31:09.765000+08:00","text":"我是予以肯定的，當然待會針對原住民的議題，我相信你也可以聽得進去。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:31:10.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:31:30.168000+08:00","text":"目前來講到現在，從3月14日賴總統出席「臺灣總統直選三十週年與民主韌性研討會」，全國的原住民到目前都還在憤怒，要如何化解？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:31:31.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:31:40.844000+08:00","text":"中央、總統、行政院還是要坦白從寬，要老實以對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:31:41.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:31:57.153000+08:00","text":"針對致詞的部分，總統說臺灣是一個主權獨立的國家，國民政府只將臺灣當成反攻大陸的跳板，更直言國民黨對待臺灣人民比日本殖民還要差。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:31:58.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:32:13.982000+08:00","text":"本席質疑身為國家元首，卻引用日本帝國時期政治宣傳框架來描述歷史，此舉不僅失格，也恐加劇社會的對立。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:32:15.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:32:18.165000+08:00","text":"在此呼籲，國家當前面臨的是什麼？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:32:18.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:32:32.170000+08:00","text":"是能源、經濟與國際局勢等多重的挑戰，政府應該將心力放在解決民生的問題，而非以片斷歷史作為政治攻防的工具。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:32:34.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:32:39.677000+08:00","text":"民進黨不是才說要修補裂痕，團結臺灣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:32:41.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:32:52.389000+08:00","text":"結果，總統帶頭用歷史當武器，把歷史當選舉工具，這樣的政治格局實在令人失望。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:32:53.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:32:56.173000+08:00","text":"對我們全國的原住民來講，情何以堪？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:32:56.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:33:23.636000+08:00","text":"我待會從歷史的角度來反觀、看一看，作為一個長年向臺灣原住民族歷史學習的原住民後代，我們也是後代之一，聽到賴總統這種冷血的評論，本席感到憤怒與傷心，族人也傷心。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:33:24.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:33:40.824000+08:00","text":"在此要嚴正地指控，賴總統這種說法，是對我們原住民族先輩抵抗日本殖民者歷史的無知，更是對日本人所殺掉的原住民族先輩的不敬和侮辱。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:33:51.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:33:56.794000+08:00","text":"院長、主委，你們知不知道日軍曾經用什麼手段？","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:33:58.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:34:14.050000+08:00","text":"用殺光、搶光、燒光的三光政策，摧毀我們的部落，掠奪了我們所有的土地，有這樣的一個歷史傷痛。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:34:14.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:34:48.286000+08:00","text":"我們從另外一個角度來看，過去日本殖民臺灣屠殺原住民的事實：第一個，太魯閣戰爭約600到1,000人死亡；第二，霧社事件約600到800原住民死亡；第三，第二次霧社事件約200到500人死亡；第四，理蕃戰爭整體約數千人到2萬人死亡；尤其是屠殺臺灣人將近60萬人。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:34:48.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:34:56.491000+08:00","text":"賴總統你對得起被屠殺的幾十萬人、對得起我們真正的臺灣人嗎？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:34:56.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:34:59.813000+08:00","text":"院長，請回答，等一下主委再回應。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:35:03.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:35:15.115000+08:00","text":"我請委員能夠理解，對歷史，我們只有了解歷史，才能從了解真相之後，從各個角度去寬恕、去原諒過去歷史帶來的各種災難。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:35:18.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:35:28.555000+08:00","text":"臺灣這塊土地，從荷蘭人、西班牙人、滿清、日本到國民政府，承受了太多、太多的苦難。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:35:28.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:35:50.329000+08:00","text":"不同族群、不同世代的人民，有不同的記憶，他們的記憶都存在他們的生命當中，所以總統從歷史的角度說出臺灣歷代以來所有的遭遇，代表的是一種記憶、代表的是一種對歷史追求真相，我們現在重要的……","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:35:50.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:35:51.449000+08:00","text":"院長，當然這是你的論述。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:35:53.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:36:18.104000+08:00","text":"如果從歷史角度，應該先講臺灣的主人原住民過去被傷害、被殺害、被殺光、被搶光、被擄掠的這樣一個歷史傷害，應該呈現在國人面前，總統應該要講我們原住民是最受傷害的，然後你們遷到臺灣來，把歷史根據做一個敘述，這才是對我們原住民的……","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:36:18.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:36:25.826000+08:00","text":"這當然也是歷史過程中的一部分，委員，您應該記得我說過，原住民是臺灣過去的主人，現在臺灣是我們共同的家園，我們要珍惜。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:36:25.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:36:35.228000+08:00","text":"我希望我們更重視、更尊重原住民的未來發展，既然政府要尊重原住民，可是他們現在的生活呢？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:36:35.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:36:44.111000+08:00","text":"依然到現在沒有任何的進步，對地方的部落發展，包含任何的產業經濟，到目前……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:36:46.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:36:48.454000+08:00","text":"二十多年來，政府對原住民的照顧是有增加的。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:36:48.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:36:53.119000+08:00","text":"我想，院長你看得清楚，到目前沒有進步，反而是退步。不會。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:36:53.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:37:04.352000+08:00","text":"因為太有政治手段在裡面摻雜了我們原住民的議題，我們原住民非常善良，而且也配合整個國家推動的政策，他不是沒有聲音！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:37:05.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:37:27.588000+08:00","text":"今天，我們身為民意代表，我們要廣納全國原住民的民意來這個地方對院長報告，希望往後你們在執政的過程，對原住民的尊重，包含歷史的定位、包含現在要如何讓我們的生活過得更好。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:37:31.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:37:35.288000+08:00","text":"曾主委，你承不承認這歷史的傷痛？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-03-31T14:37:35.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:37:50.544000+08:00","text":"我想總統相關的發言，他是希望社會來正視威權時期我們所受的人權侵害，我們最主要是從中記取教訓，要珍惜今天得來不易的民主憲政體制。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-03-31T14:37:51.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:37:57.647000+08:00","text":"院裡面我們也透過轉型正義的會報，來督導、落實戰後原住民的轉型正義，也透過……","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:37:59.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:38:02.789000+08:00","text":"你回答我，這一些是不是事實？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:38:02.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:38:08.552000+08:00","text":"過去歷史裡面所發生，剛剛我念的幾項被殺害的事情是不是事實？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:38:09.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:38:10.438000+08:00","text":"你回答就好了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-03-31T14:38:10.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:38:19.520000+08:00","text":"對，我們要從中記取這個教訓，當然威權時代總是有一些這樣的事情發生過，我們是要記取這個教訓。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:38:19.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:38:21.320000+08:00","text":"所謂記取教訓是怎麼樣？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:38:21.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:38:23.601000+08:00","text":"臺獨嗎？什麼？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:38:23.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:38:24.421000+08:00","text":"臺獨嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-03-31T14:38:24.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:38:32.863000+08:00","text":"不是，就是希望我們從這個教訓當中，我們怎麼樣來珍惜現在的民主憲政成果。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:38:35.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:38:35.263000+08:00","text":"謝謝，謝謝主委，主委請回。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:38:36.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:38:50.993000+08:00","text":"請交通部部長，部長……是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:38:53.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:38:57.737000+08:00","text":"部長，你當我是菜鳥還是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:38:57.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:39:00.859000+08:00","text":"我從來不覺得你是菜鳥。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:39:00.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:39:28.336000+08:00","text":"我再三親口告訴你了，綠島現在的問題所在，我從來沒有要求你要做什麼，福國利民的事情，當然我一定要珍惜，所以我很客氣地告訴你，我曾經跟你是同事，念在曾經是同事，所以不找你任何的議題，但今天我只是拜託你，公平正義在哪裡？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:39:28.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:39:31.377000+08:00","text":"我拜託你，你當我是傻瓜，你不要「孝呆」、「孝呆」的！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:39:33.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:39:37.580000+08:00","text":"專業，專業都沒有做得到，我求你來幫忙，你連一個幫忙都沒有！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:39:38.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:39:41.544000+08:00","text":"委員，我們就您指教的事情，我們共同來討論，請委員……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:39:41.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:39:50.788000+08:00","text":"我本來很客氣的，當面在這個地方來拜託你，今天針對綠島的事情，現在我們來看一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:39:52.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:05.435000+08:00","text":"為提升臺東往返綠島海運能量與舒適感，綠島鄉公所接收的公船太武輪日前已在高雄交船，準備進入整修。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:06.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:20.964000+08:00","text":"本席二度站在這地方，我要讓院長知道，本來這件事不會浮上檯面，畢竟預算沒有那麼多，且整修與購買的補助經費資金仍未獲得同意。","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:21.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:33.290000+08:00","text":"根據調查，所有的外離島中，現在只剩下綠島沒有公船，依照比例原則，這讓綠島民眾極度不滿。","quality":0.658},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:33.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:37.752000+08:00","text":"你們本來就應該有比例原則，所以我希望你們能重新檢討。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:37.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:39.753000+08:00","text":"雖然你們有來報告，但報告給我了嗎？沒有！","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:40.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:41.174000+08:00","text":"連一個報告都沒有！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:42.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:43.655000+08:00","text":"委員，我在這邊跟您說明……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:43.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:44.916000+08:00","text":"你當我是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:44.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:45.577000+08:00","text":"你要不要讓我說明？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:45.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:46.298000+08:00","text":"不然我現在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:46.298000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:48.560000+08:00","text":"我當你是委員，你要不要讓我說明？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:48.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:49.600000+08:00","text":"現在我盯上你們交通部了！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:50.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:51.442000+08:00","text":"你不要讓我生氣！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:51.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:52.343000+08:00","text":"你要不要讓我說明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:52.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:53.364000+08:00","text":"請讓部長說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:53.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:55.626000+08:00","text":"你看一下，我不要你說明了！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:55.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:56.726000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:56.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:58.308000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這艘船幾年了你知道嗎？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:58.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:58.688000+08:00","text":"為什麼……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:58.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:40:59.008000+08:00","text":"他們現在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:40:59.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:02.331000+08:00","text":"現在你要拆除，說要補助他們，但他們不要補助……","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:02.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:04.773000+08:00","text":"因為買來的船已經幾年了，您知道嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:05.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:06.655000+08:00","text":"你現在評估說要拆除……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:06.655000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:07.655000+08:00","text":"這艘船二十八年！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:06.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:08.276000+08:00","text":"然後說要給他們補助，但他們不要補助！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:11.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:22.006000+08:00","text":"所謂的福國利民是要能長治久安，讓他們能夠依照比例原則達到公平的角度，所以你應該要重新思考、重新檢討才對！","quality":0.646},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:22.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:27.270000+08:00","text":"委員，這艘船已經二十八年了，修理起來要六千多萬，不符合經濟效益。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:27.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:29.532000+08:00","text":"你們單位有沒有來跟我報告？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:29.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:30.092000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:31.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:33.695000+08:00","text":"您要我跟您報告，我現在要跟您報告，您要不要聽？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:35.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:36.654000+08:00","text":"為什麼我一定要在這地方質詢你呢？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:38.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:40.998000+08:00","text":"你要我去你辦公室報告，你也可以來要求我們去報告，沒問題啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:41.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:42.900000+08:00","text":"你的專業在哪裡？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:42.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:41:50.082000+08:00","text":"現在所有的離島都有公船，所以我要你們檢討，請你們再思考。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:41:51.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:03.955000+08:00","text":"今天就算是你們評估認為這艘舊船不能使用，那就不要使用，你們可以再提另外一個方案，而不是拆除，然後補助他們，他們要的是這樣的補助嗎？","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:04.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:05.536000+08:00","text":"這要看綠島鄉公所有沒有提出申請……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:05.536000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:06.536000+08:00","text":"我曾經跟你提過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:05.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:06.657000+08:00","text":"要看綠島鄉公所怎麼提出申請。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:11.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:14.445000+08:00","text":"我曾經就任何道路去要求過交通部嗎？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:14.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:15.306000+08:00","text":"只有這一件而已！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:16.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:17.548000+08:00","text":"所以我今天要盯上交通部了！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:17.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:21.633000+08:00","text":"您跟我說這件事，我們的航港局也確實評估了……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:21.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:22.013000+08:00","text":"怎麼處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:22.013000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:23.013000+08:00","text":"怎麼處理啊？","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:22.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:26.478000+08:00","text":"也跟您說過評估結果就是這樣，畢竟目前的船已經二十八年，要花六千多萬……","quality":0.581},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:27.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:28.800000+08:00","text":"我現在不聽你講，為什麼？","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:28.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:32.663000+08:00","text":"當我在等你告訴我時，你卻沒有來跟我報告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:32.663000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:33.744000+08:00","text":"再來，現在的貨輪及客輪都夠用……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:33.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:36.286000+08:00","text":"所以我現在一定要站到檯面上來指責你！","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:37.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:41.070000+08:00","text":"目前客輪的載客率才五成而已，貨輪載客率三成而已！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:41.070000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:42.070000+08:00","text":"院長，你認為公平正義在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:41.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:42:56.823000+08:00","text":"委員，聽起來部長對現狀是了解的，而且對您提出的方式也有進行相關調查，所以他知道花這麼一筆錢去修一部舊船，或許將來在使用上、在安全上都值得深慮！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:42:57.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:03.529000+08:00","text":"只是部長應該要進一步跟委員商討，看如何來解決這個問題。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:03.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:04.349000+08:00","text":"本來就是應該這樣子！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:05.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:07.492000+08:00","text":"所以我為什麼一定要在總質詢時來質詢你？","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:07.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:08.453000+08:00","text":"你要讓他了解之後……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:08.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:12.436000+08:00","text":"之前我好言相勸告訴你，結果你把我當成菜鳥，是不是？","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:12.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:17.443000+08:00","text":"他了解事實，調查清楚後，也可以下一步再提出一個方案出來。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:17.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:18.745000+08:00","text":"這不是調查報告！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:20.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:23.952000+08:00","text":"報告院長，從去年到現在已經一年多了、一年多了！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:23.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:24.952000+08:00","text":"你大小眼是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:24.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:25.952000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這件事……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:25.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:26.952000+08:00","text":"外界說你是凱哥，你到處灑錢，看顏色到處灑錢！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:26.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:27.952000+08:00","text":"你名字叫凱哥，現在外面的人都在傳！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:27.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:28.952000+08:00","text":"因為你不就事實……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:28.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:29.952000+08:00","text":"委員這樣的說法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:29.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:30.952000+08:00","text":"不做福國利民的事，反而是到處灑錢！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:30.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:31.952000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我不能接受對我人身的攻擊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:31.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:32.952000+08:00","text":"很多委員都對部長相當肯定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:25.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:43:25.905000+08:00","text":"時間暫停！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T14:43:26.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:44:03.462000+08:00","text":"黃委員、卓院長、陳部長，我想我們就互相彼此尊重，用理性溝通，展開有優質的政策對話，好不好？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T14:44:03.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:44:04.822000+08:00","text":"黃委員、卓院長、陳部長？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T14:44:04.822000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:44:05.822000+08:00","text":"大家互相尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:44:04.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:44:09.905000+08:00","text":"是，我報告委員，很多委員對部長都相當肯定，這件事情，他一定會有後續的。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:44:10.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:44:11.145000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:44:12.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:44:22.150000+08:00","text":"報告院長，我本來是好言相勸，想當面告訴交通部長有這麼一回事。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:44:23.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:44:29.563000+08:00","text":"這不是預算多寡，而是綠島要公平正義！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:44:29.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:44:38.749000+08:00","text":"綠島人口縱然沒有那麼多，但讓他們有交通公船絕對有利，這是長治久安的事。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:44:41.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:44:57.264000+08:00","text":"這艘船或許已經老舊，二十八年了，必須要翻修、必須要付出這筆錢，這樣可能不值得，必須用拆除的方法來補助給你，請問一下，比例原則在哪裡？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:44:57.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:44:58.185000+08:00","text":"公船就是沒有嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:44:59.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:02.668000+08:00","text":"你們應該要檢討，你們內部裡面也應該要跟我報告啊！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:03.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:04.809000+08:00","text":"我等了一年多了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:05.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:10.893000+08:00","text":"委員，這件事要看綠島鄉公所他們希望怎麼做，您也可以來開協調會啊！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:11.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:12.114000+08:00","text":"都已經跟你們講了嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:12.114000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:13.114000+08:00","text":"您也可以來開協調會，我們一定會配合啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:12.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:17.798000+08:00","text":"港務局主秘都已經跟你講、跟你報告了嘛，你現在還當作不知道啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:17.798000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:18.798000+08:00","text":"他沒有跟我報告，但他有跟我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:18.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:18.939000+08:00","text":"當不知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:19.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:20.180000+08:00","text":"當傻瓜是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:20.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:21.141000+08:00","text":"不要在這邊「孝呆」！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:21.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:22.141000+08:00","text":"您可以開協調會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:22.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:23.141000+08:00","text":"院長，你定奪、你裁奪！","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:23.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:24.141000+08:00","text":"公平原則！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:24.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:25.141000+08:00","text":"委員，您一直用人身攻擊，我不能接受。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:25.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:26.141000+08:00","text":"要不要？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:26.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:27.141000+08:00","text":"要不要公平原則？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:27.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:28.141000+08:00","text":"綠島的部分，要不要給他們一個公船？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:28.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:29.141000+08:00","text":"這公平公正。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:23.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:55.018000+08:00","text":"政府對綠島各種的應有建設實在是不會落後，也不會少的，我記得我去的時候，關於學校整建，我們每一年都因為颱風來也撥下相當的款項，這都是應該的，況且我記得綠島整個電線地下化我們也做了很多，所以不會……","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:56.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:58.600000+08:00","text":"好，你現在回答我嘛，院長，要不要重新檢討公平正義？","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:58.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:45:59.721000+08:00","text":"要不要重新檢討？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:45:59.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:01.262000+08:00","text":"我看部長再了解清楚以後再跟我說明，好不好？","quality":0.368},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:01.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:03.704000+08:00","text":"可以啊，沒有問題，我們可以來商討。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:03.704000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:04.704000+08:00","text":"什麼時候？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:04.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:10.208000+08:00","text":"您也可以開協調會啊，我們一起來商討嘛，找綠島鄉公所大家一起來討論看要怎麼解決嘛。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:10.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:10.609000+08:00","text":"給你兩個禮拜好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:10.609000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:12.861000+08:00","text":"我不要等一年，給你兩個禮拜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:12.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:14.145000+08:00","text":"所以您不參與這件事，我們直接找綠島鄉公所嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:14.145000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:17.609500+08:00","text":"尊重委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:17.609500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:21.074000+08:00","text":"開協調會啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:21.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:24.897000+08:00","text":"還是你們檢討、討論出來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:24.897000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:25.897000+08:00","text":"您可以開協調會，您開協調會我們一定會到啊。","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:25.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:28.140000+08:00","text":"討論出來，兩個禮拜，你們分析看能不能啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:29.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:29.921000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:29.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:32.824000+08:00","text":"以現況的要求，我們已經分析出來沒有經濟價值了。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:32.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:35.966000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，沒有經濟價值，這是公平正義的問題嘛！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:35.966000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:36.966000+08:00","text":"比例原則嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:36.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:39.069000+08:00","text":"如果要新的版本也沒問題，我們來討論嘛！","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:39.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:41.891000+08:00","text":"好，給你一個禮拜，請下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:42.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:44.273000+08:00","text":"所以到底是兩個禮拜還是一個禮拜？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:44.273000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:45.273000+08:00","text":"您剛剛說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:44.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:45.154000+08:00","text":"一個禮拜好了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:46.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:47.536000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題，我們來商討。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:52.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:54.770000+08:00","text":"有請國防部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:54.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:46:58.755000+08:00","text":"麻煩請國防部備詢。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T14:46:58.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:47:02.238000+08:00","text":"跟黃委員報告，國防部長今天下午接見貴賓，現在是徐副部長備詢。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-03-31T14:47:02.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:47:02.779000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:47:15.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:47:28.974000+08:00","text":"本席要先強調，對美採購武器，沒有人反對，但很多人卻有質疑跟擔心，副部長知不知道為什麼？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:47:28.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:47:32.696000+08:00","text":"主要是交貨進度讓大家擔憂。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:47:32.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:48:00.167000+08:00","text":"根據今年2月TVBS的民調，將近59%的民眾同意軍購對臺灣安全有幫助，但是同時也有56%的受訪者擔心美國軍售延宕交貨，其實就是證明本席剛剛所說的，支持對美的軍購，但是有所疑慮。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:48:00.167000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:48:41.104000+08:00","text":"以目前你們所訂出來的，國防部指出美國真正交貨的延宕項目只有3項，總額新臺幣2,550億，分別為F-16 Block 70戰機，原本規劃2026年全數交付，目前零交機；第二是AGM-154C聯合距外精準武器，原訂2025、2026年交付，現拖延到2027、2028年；另外第三是MK-48重型魚雷，多次調整期程，現延至2026至2028年，全數完成可能達到2030年，你來回答一下這個問題。","quality":0.26},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-03-31T14:48:41.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:49:48.215000+08:00","text":"委員，是這樣的，關於目前延宕的品項的確是您所說的這三項，我們持續地跟美方溝通，相關延宕的這幾個產線，F-16我剛剛去看過了，目前F-16的產線在物料和人員上並沒有什麼窒礙，主要是F-16 Block 70是為我們臺灣設計的、是一個新的構型，必須不斷試飛才能把新系統調校好，然後再回饋產線去做調校，所以時間沒有辦法確定，但是我去看了產線，產線上面的66架裡面已經有59架都在裝測了。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:49:48.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:49:52.758000+08:00","text":"好，我問你，武器交付的延宕是不是事實？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:49:52.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:49:53.439000+08:00","text":"回答我就好了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-03-31T14:49:54.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:50:05.986000+08:00","text":"這三項的確，但是像F-16是到今年要交付，雖然到目前為止是還沒有，可是已經有在試飛了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:50:06.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:50:11.989000+08:00","text":"對嘛，現在回答我，這三項也好，武器沒有交付是不是一個事實？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:50:12.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:50:13.910000+08:00","text":"是就好了嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:50:13.910000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:50:14.910000+08:00","text":"只有這三項，很多正常……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-03-31T14:50:14.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:50:15.391000+08:00","text":"但是很多也已經交付了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:50:16.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:50:24.236000+08:00","text":"很多是正常的，還有一項是超前的，當中有三項，剛剛副部長提到其中一項的因素，這個跟國際因素也有相當的關係。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:50:24.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:51:41.268000+08:00","text":"我們講一個必須要承認的，即使以合約來看只有三項延宕，但是這三項對國軍的戰力有非常大的影響，知不知道，因為這三項你們提出了……剛剛講的是2,250億，但是美國卡托研究所2025年11月的報告表示，延宕金額高達約新臺幣6,773億元，雖然這個未交付的累積金額包含生產中因美方產能排擠而延後的都算進去，但是實際上也反映出美國對外軍售系統長期低效、風險規避，加上產業基礎無法快速擴產的系統問題，蘭德公司、戰略暨國際研究中心等智庫報告也多次指出，美國工業基礎無法同時滿足臺灣和烏克蘭的高需求，所以這是一個問題所在，而延宕就是延宕！","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:51:43.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:51:49.275000+08:00","text":"剛剛提到的6,730億就是我們購買的武器到現在的金額，是吧？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-03-31T14:51:49.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:51:59.242000+08:00","text":"不過我們的付款是隨著它的交付而進行的，在還沒有交付我們之前，錢並沒有轉移過去，這是第一個事情。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-03-31T14:51:59.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:52:09.988000+08:00","text":"第二個事情，如果美國的產線有所窒礙，這不是只對於中華民國臺灣，對全球都是一樣，這是第二點。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-03-31T14:52:09.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:52:15.090000+08:00","text":"第三點，如果我們不向美國買，有什麼別的來源可以買嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-03-31T14:52:15.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:52:25.676000+08:00","text":"問題是現在沒有啊，所以並不表示某些武器延宕而大部分武器都按時交，不能因為這樣我們就不購買武器了，我想不能因噎廢食吧！","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:52:26.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:52:39.424000+08:00","text":"我想延宕就是延宕，國人都已經知道了，現在我們重新檢討，儘快把武器交付給國內，增加我們國軍的戰力，這才是一個真正要解決的問題。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:52:40.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:52:41.045000+08:00","text":"好，請回座。謝謝。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:52:42.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:52:43.327000+08:00","text":"請原民會主委。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T14:52:44.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:52:45.068000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請原民會備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:52:58.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:53:35.725000+08:00","text":"我想這個也要給院長知道，外交部提出總合外交的政策，林部長在總合外交的過程裡面一定有他的績效，因為我在外交及國防委員會，我常常有去了解在外交國防的總合外交，包含南島語系民族推動的一些政策，本席在這個地方特別提出的是整個原民會要不要再增加單位，而且如何做一個橫向聯繫？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:53:35.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:54:41.460000+08:00","text":"因為南島語系民族，我想這是從我上任後就跟外交部部長一再提到的，既然你們提出總合外交，我就提出原民外交，包含南島語系，如何結合這些南島語系民族將近3、4億人口的過程，因為我們常常對於我們的外交困境一直處於沒有辦法再拓展的情況，如何借用南島語系的民族去做結合，然後總合外交，其中原民會扮演的角色非常重要，原民會扮演的角色也是要跟外交部做橫向聯繫，所以應該要設置原住民國際處，因為現在原住民的國際組只有2,000萬的預算，你如何把我們南島語系的民族再推展到亞太民族裡面？","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:54:42.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:55:13.333000+08:00","text":"我們不能依賴外交部，外交部有外交部的專責，我想原民會本身也有專責，對於我們要推動的南島語系民族，而且如果原民會成立一個國際處，然後跟外交部配合總合外交，對於整個亞太地區的南島語系民族，我想有助於突破我們國家在外交政策的困境，擴展我們的視野。","quality":0.649},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:55:14.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:55:16.534000+08:00","text":"院長，你認不認同我的想法？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:55:17.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:55:31.470000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員肯定林佳龍部長率領外交部推出總合外交，甚至還有榮邦計畫等等，這都是過去幾年我們很少有的外交接觸，目前也持續在醞釀、運作當中。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:55:32.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:55:41.980000+08:00","text":"至於原民的部分，在原民會的綜合規劃處當中，就有一個國際事務的專責機構，所以這個也是……","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:55:42.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:55:46.464000+08:00","text":"國際事務組現在他推展的沒有辦法發揮嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:55:46.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:56:07.977000+08:00","text":"對，那無論……是，但是所有的部會對外的關係，都應該在外交部總合外交這種大的計畫當中逐步推動，那我認為，我也會要求外交部不要去忽略南島國家對我們應該有的接觸，甚至他跟我們有某些文化的相同，更有利於我們互相的接觸，這個我會請外交部可以再補充說明。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:56:08.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:56:09.738000+08:00","text":"好，待會你再回答我。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:56:12.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:56:31.482000+08:00","text":"原住民事務委員會是民國86年（1997年）設立，至今已經28年了，那原住民農、漁、林業因分屬各部會業管，導致有5個問題長期存在。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:56:32.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:56:38.166000+08:00","text":"既然很多業務現在都是原民會的重中之重，為什麼？","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:56:38.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:56:49.972000+08:00","text":"因為原民會直接對整個全國的原住民的一些農、漁、林，包含南島語系民族的推展，是直接跟他們有關係的。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:56:50.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:56:56.275000+08:00","text":"所以，我的意思是說，既然設立28年了，那我們應該要設立的是什麼？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:56:56.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:57:21.971000+08:00","text":"就是國際處，配合我們外交部的總合外交；農、漁、林部分，配合農業部，原住民委員會應該要增設農漁林處，這樣的話，更能夠貼近民意，貼近農民、貼近漁民，包含南島語系民族的推展。主委。","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-03-31T14:57:23.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:57:25.375000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-03-31T14:57:25.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:57:41.351000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員對我們原民會這邊，對外交跟農漁業的能量的考量，但我要跟委員報告，依據中央行政機關組織基準法的規定，我們會裡面最多就是成立六個處。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-03-31T14:57:41.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:57:59.492000+08:00","text":"但是我跟委員報告，有沒有這個處跟有沒有做這個事情是不一樣的，我們一樣現在比如講在中長程的計畫、在原住民國際外交的部分，我們院裡面在未來的6年也編列了5.2億的經費來處理這個事情。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-03-31T14:58:00.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:58:04.473000+08:00","text":"因為我沒有辦法再增加處，但是有這樣的預算……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:58:05.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:58:16.738000+08:00","text":"好，你不要單顧本位，也不要固守長期、傳統的概念，從蔡英文總統到現在我們的賴總統，設置了多少的部門？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:58:16.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:58:33.424000+08:00","text":"設置了多少的部門，我們要創造新的議題，讓我們民眾百姓、老百姓，尤其是農民、漁民，最能直接感受原民會的恩澤、德政，是不是？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:58:34.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:58:55.643000+08:00","text":"你要去創造，你要去爭取，那你也可以說服我們這些立法委員，我們要跟行政院來報告，向行政院拜託，拜託能夠讓原住民事務委員會增設農漁林處，包含我們的國際處，結合外交部的總合外交，不就是一個解決之道嗎？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:58:56.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:58:58.265000+08:00","text":"要不然我們的範圍沒有跨出去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-03-31T14:58:59.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:04.312000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，農業部本來就是在照顧我們所有的農民，我們原住民的農民也是農民……","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:04.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:06.315000+08:00","text":"農業部，請一下部長，我要請教部長，來，農業部部長，我直接講一句話就好了，農業部部長，來。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:06.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:08.018000+08:00","text":"外交部請回，農業部部長請備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:17.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:27.576000+08:00","text":"委員，我們的中央政府組織其設定有一定的數目、一定的量能，所以是不是我們的外交或是農業部的事情不能做到，我們來檢討。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:27.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:33.918000+08:00","text":"院長，你們就思考從蔡英文總統，包含賴總統，到現在設置了多少的部門，用這個思維就好了，好不好？","quality":0.675},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:33.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:36.179000+08:00","text":"那都是依法設置，都是依法設置的。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:36.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:42.061000+08:00","text":"那你現在很多的章程、憲法要怎麼改的，就要看你們怎麼改啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:42.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:42.581000+08:00","text":"部長、農業部部長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:42.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:50.756000+08:00","text":"部長、農業部長，喂？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:52.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:53.120000+08:00","text":"我跟委員說明一下……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:53.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:53.440000+08:00","text":"你不要……「你好！謝謝！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:53.440000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:54.733000+08:00","text":"你是來協助我的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:54.733000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:56.026000+08:00","text":"」（原住民語）你好！謝謝！","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:56.026000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:57.319000+08:00","text":"（原住民語）","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:57.319000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:58.612000+08:00","text":"你知道啦，我現在是問農業部部長，部長來回答我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:58.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T14:59:59.473000+08:00","text":"我聽不懂啦、我聽不懂啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T14:59:59.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T15:00:00.094000+08:00","text":"聽不懂嘛。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T15:00:00.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T15:00:04.619000+08:00","text":"但是有做事情、會做事情啦！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-03-31T15:00:04.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T15:00:07.562000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，農業部針對原民部落，特別提出一個原力再現……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T15:00:20.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T15:00:30.380000+08:00","text":"我們很多農人都聽不懂你們的臺灣話，只知道原民會的原民話，那今天我要要求補助、我要耕種，你不會聽我們原住民的辛苦跟他們內心的吶喊，你如何了解？會啦。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T15:00:30.380000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:00:31.741000+08:00","text":"原民會就有這個功能來服務。","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2026-03-31T15:00:31.741000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:00:33.102000+08:00","text":"我們有這個功能來協助。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T15:00:33.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T15:00:37.405000+08:00","text":"所以嘛，農漁林署、農漁林處是不是成立一個嘛？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T15:00:38.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T15:00:39.166000+08:00","text":"我覺得是最簡單的嘛，對不對？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T15:00:39.166000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:00:40.407000+08:00","text":"我問你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T15:00:40.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T15:00:43.288000+08:00","text":"委員，如果原民會什麼部都要成立一個，那就跟院長一樣啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2026-03-31T15:00:44.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:01.941000+08:00","text":"沒有，今天我們講一個貼近民意、貼近原住民的事務，我們很多原住民不懂國語、不會講臺語，但是原民會最能夠貼近原住民事務，可以聆聽他們的辛苦、他們需要的是什麼。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:01.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:07.723000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，在原住民輔導的時候，我們都有原住民的同仁一起來協助。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁：所以現在我跟部長講，部長，我問你","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:07.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:08.723000+08:00","text":"「你是來協助我的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁：所以現在我跟部長講，部長，我問你","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:08.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:09.723000+08:00","text":"我問你，夠了，不要再重複了。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"黃委員仁：所以現在我跟部長講，部長，我問你","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:08.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:08.763000+08:00","text":"」（原住民語），你不懂嘛！","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"黃委員仁：所以現在我跟部長講，部長，我問你","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:08.763000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:22.919000+08:00","text":"再來請外交部，請一下部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:22.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:25.926000+08:00","text":"報告黃委員，質詢時間已到，「時間已到」的原住民話怎麼說？到了。","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:26.426000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:31.568857+08:00","text":"原住民話怎麼說，你要不要說一遍？到了。到了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:31.868857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:35.583143+08:00","text":"謝謝黃仁委員質詢、謝謝卓院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:35.883143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:37.311714+08:00","text":"謝謝黃委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:37.611714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:39.326000+08:00","text":"謝謝（原住民語）。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:39.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:01:46.483143+08:00","text":"謝謝黃委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢，非常感謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T15:01:46.783143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:02:00.211714+08:00","text":"報告院會，我們議場二樓旁聽的是來自美國加州、德州、波士頓所有的僑胞朋友來到我們立法院，我們掌聲歡迎各位！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T15:02:00.511714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:02:11.654571+08:00","text":"報告院會，又來了一批青年學子，來自東吳大學政治系的同學，我的小學弟、小學妹，我們掌聲歡迎！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-03-31T15:02:11.954571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-03-31T15:02:17.383143+08:00","text":"接下來請林德福委員質詢，徐欣瑩委員請準備。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}