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部長好我今天是想跟你交流最低服務年限即違約金條款那我想問部長請問您知道其實我們醫療機構也好護理機構也好長照機構也好常常使出最低服務年限即違約金條款來約束護理人員的離職自由請問一下部長有掌握這件事嗎我知道那您對這件事目前的看法是如何"},{"start":53.149,"end":71.748,"text":"這勞基法有相關的規定是勞基法規範在第15條之一那事實上部長覺得那相關的規定那您的看法呢這個有規定我們都知道但是您的看法當然法的規定就應該落實但的確它應該有一些相關的前提"},{"start":72.588,"end":101.327,"text":"相關前提我先跟部長建構一些基本的觀念就是我們護理人員他如果受僱於醫療機構也好長照機構也好護理機構也好那通常都跟醫院或者是護理長照機構簽訂一個不定期勞動契約那不定期勞動契約如果護理人員想離職那其實按照勞基法的規定其實只要預告僱主其實就可以離職了我想這個概念我想這個基本概念我們應該是都有掌握"},{"start":104.469,"end":129.917,"text":"那現在呢 醫院呢 因為我也大家也知道說那個護理人員慌非常嚴重嘛所以這些機構其實很害怕護理人員離職所以他就會寄出一個最低服務年限寄違約金的條款來約束護理人員的自由那護理人員其實比較單純比較單純 比較涉世未深他們就覺得說那我們簽了這個違約金條款我們如果想要"},{"start":130.737,"end":149.329,"text":"在這個條款所約定的期限以內離職例如說條款提到說護理人員你應該在機構任職兩年如果你期限戒之前離職的話你就會被刻以違約金那我們護理人員比較單純比較涉事衛生他們就會覺得說那我們既然簽了違約金條款那我們真的"},{"start":151.99,"end":179.642,"text":"在期限戒之前我們真的做不下去所以想離職了那我們也只好為了求順利離職也只好認賠了事這樣子好那現在問題來了就是說既然剛剛部長也有認知說所謂的最低年限計違約金條款他規定在勞基法第15條質疑您剛剛也提到說要用違約金條款來綁住勞工的離職自由是具有前提要件的那請問一下您有掌握是具備哪些前提要件嗎"},{"start":180.362,"end":187.503,"text":"我想事務之一上面就是有寫到嗎你要有培訓然後跟培訓費用然後還有簽約金"},{"start":188.513,"end":209.027,"text":"其實我們可以比較有體系的來講這些概念你要用違約金條款來綁住勞工離職自由你的違約金條款必須經過兩個要件的檢驗第一個要件就是違約金條款要有必要性第二個要件就是違約金條款要具有合理性那所謂的必要性就是雇主要付出相當的訓練成本"},{"start":210.908,"end":236.085,"text":"然後把員工培訓成是一個不可或缺的人物然後勞工的驟然離職會造成雇主的損失這時候雇主的利益才有需要以違約金條款來保障的必要這個叫做必要性那第二個合理性就是說你約束勞工的離職自由的年限要跟你所付出的訓練成本兩個要相當如果不相當的話就不具有合理性這樣那如果不等於掌握這兩個概念我們來操作一個實際的判決"},{"start":241.448,"end":255.778,"text":"這個實際的判決就是護理人員簽了一個違約金條款他必須在這家醫院任職滿兩年那如果提前離職的話就要賠償違約金兩個月結果這個護理人員真的是水土不服坐不下去然後要離職了這樣子那現在"},{"start":257.399,"end":275.122,"text":"院方他就提出了他們的訴求說你既然沒有做到兩年就離職那你要賠償我相當於兩個月薪水的違約金那我們來看一下院方怎麼主張院方他主張說我有對你進行新進人員的訓練課程那是這些兩年期的護理師的學習歷程那還有一些網路課程那又安排你去參加一些研習會跟研討會那請問一下我們剛有"},{"start":284.264,"end":310.961,"text":"操作過相關的定義了嘛你雇主必須是支付相當的訓練成本讓勞工成為不可替代的人選然後勞工的驟然離職會造成雇主的損失這時候勞工的利益雇主的利益才有必要以違約金條款來約束好那以這個具體來是事實來看部長你覺得這個雇主這個醫院雇主的利益有必要以違約金條款來加以保障嗎"},{"start":313.342,"end":336.045,"text":"那個跟委員說明因為第一個我就目前你這個簡報的左邊的這些相關的課程因為當然我不是護理的專業所以我不是那麼清楚知道你現在列的這些相關的課程是在護理的專業裡面它是不是一個必要或者是它是一個什麼樣定性的相關的課程這可能我也要去找"},{"start":336.445,"end":360.808,"text":"課程一定是必要我們講的必要性是指說雇主的利益有沒有必要以違約金條款來約束課程一定是必要所以我的意思是說因為你剛剛列的你剛剛列的這些事情包括這課程包括雇主有沒有相關的支出它是不是一個最基本的就薪到值的東西比方說它如果是最基本的法律要求的"},{"start":361.569,"end":369.586,"text":"跟還是說僱主也做更進一步額外進一步的培訓我自己不是護理的專業所以我比較沒有辦法從現在"},{"start":372.145,"end":399.731,"text":"其實部長你已經講到一個觀念了嘛它是不是一些必要的訓練例行性的訓練如果它是一個必要的訓練例行性的訓練那本來就是雇主你在經營一家醫院也好護理機構也好長照機構本來要負擔的基本的人事成本啊那本來就是雇主要負擔的那怎麼會把這個要負擔的基本的人事成本轉嫁在我們護理人員身上呢所以有沒有經過必要性的檢驗"},{"start":400.891,"end":425.867,"text":"部長可以再思考一下所以我說我這部分可能也要跟衛福部這邊來討論是這些課程的定性符不符合15-1他的前提的條件沒有問題那我也非常謝謝部長願意去跟衛福部來做一個專業上觀點的溝通那等一下馬上我們就會呈現司法的判決我們可以來聆聽法官對這件事什麼看好那請問一下呢"},{"start":427.848,"end":442.365,"text":"我們接著來檢驗合理性那合理性當然定義已經有了嘛你付出這些新進人員的訓練成本然後去約束勞工兩年的離職自由那如果當中顯不相當例如說付出的錢非常的少"},{"start":442.805,"end":469.616,"text":"然後呢卻約束勞工兩年的離職自由那這樣會不會有顯不相當那如果顯不相當當然就不符合合理性那如果既不符合合理性又不符合必要性你用違約金條款來約束護理人員的自由那我想根據勞基法第15條之一這樣的違約金條款當然就是一個無效的條款來那部長請問一下你覺得這個違約金條款你目前看起來會是一個無效的違約金條款嗎"},{"start":473.163,"end":490.964,"text":"一樣是有專業嗎我確實沒有對護理的專業這麼了解所以我很難我自己就下一個怎樣的判斷通常這可能會進到法院裡面沒有問題那我們來看一下法院的判決那部長再跟我們分享對於法官的這個判斷是否能夠認同"},{"start":492.466,"end":510.536,"text":"那首先我們來講必要性的檢驗那法官就認為說這只是一個例行性的教育那不是為了這個特定的護理人員所製作並沒有額外的支出所謂的訓練成本而且有一些線上的課程這些課程其實都可以日後反覆的在使用其實這本來就是例行性的訓練"},{"start":511.496,"end":532.285,"text":"那雇主負擔的成本其實是很低的那所以難以認為說醫院有付出龐大的訓練成本讓這個護理人員成為不可替代的人選所以他的作然離職其實是不會造成醫院的損失所以這時候雇主的利益就沒有必要用違約金條款來保障這是必要性的檢驗法院的看法那第二個合理性的看法就是說這個訓練的費用其實都只是"},{"start":535.066,"end":554.252,"text":"一般的例行性的訓練新進人員的訓練那你用這些例行性的訓練來約束護理人員兩年的離職自由然後他沒有達到兩年提前離職你又要科與他付一個違約金的義務這個兩個權衡之下顯不相當所以當然也沒有符合合理性所以這個案件最後就是違約金條款無效"},{"start":555.632,"end":583.326,"text":"那既然違約金條款無效當然護理人員就不用賠償但是回歸到我們的實務層面護理人員設施衛生也很單純那某個程度也是勞動教育的概念沒有非常的普及跟扎實所以他們為了順利的離職所以他們就認賠了事那部長對這件事的看法如何不知道勞動部這邊可以多做一些什麼事嗎跟委員說沒有其實我們之前也有在跟衛福部在討論是不是對於一些醫療業的"},{"start":584.997,"end":602.273,"text":"工作的現場包括他的人員有沒有可能其實跟衛福一起來合作那有更多這個關於勞動法規教育的機會包括宣導那讓大家其實能夠在這個法的框架下面能夠更加落實法尊"},{"start":603.634,"end":620.394,"text":"所以当然这是一个明确的判决明确判决那部长能够认同吗认为说这是例行性的训练然后雇主的利益没有必要用违约金条款来保障这个法院的判决就是判决我自己是认为说我们其实应该因为确实有很多法规的处理"},{"start":621.195,"end":641.702,"text":"包括行政的處理其實都會看法院的判決來作為一個重要的參考點所以我是說在這樣一個明確的法院的判決之下我想我們願意來跟衛福部來討論就是說是不是在怎麼樣狀況之下透過一個大家怎麼進一步的作為其實能夠讓法尊能夠更加落實那部長我想請問一下像這些濫用違約金條款的這個雇主請問勞基法相關的處罰是什麼"},{"start":649.988,"end":666.724,"text":"這條文 老計法並沒有罰是 老計法對於這條並沒有罰則那沒有罰則會有一個現象不公平的現象 什麼現象呢如果護理人員傻傻的笨笨的陪下去醫院多賺到了一筆十萬塊的違約金如果護理人員不從的話"},{"start":667.645,"end":696.905,"text":"其實醫院沒有拿到他本來應該拿到的違約金他其實也沒有損失那濫用違約金條款的雇主等於他沒有成本啊他違法他濫用這種手段來約束護理人員約束護理人員的自由還讓護理人員平白無故從口袋掏出這個違約金條款反正成功了多賺一筆沒成功了也沒有損失但是這個濫用違約金條款雇主卻完全沒有成本所以我在這邊想要請教部長您是否覺得應該來建議一些法則"},{"start":697.825,"end":724.425,"text":"才能夠讓濫用違約金的僱主有一些這個成本要付出啊我覺得法規的討論當然法規要不要做更進一步優化我覺得這部分當然都可以來討論啦來看實際上面的需求但是我覺得就目前來看的話我自己還是比較希望是說大家針對包括是尤其是主管機關尤其很多醫院其實也是在"},{"start":725.646,"end":746.185,"text":"相關的事業單位主管機關的管轄之內部長我先跟您分享一下不管要不要修法我們都應該進一步有一些進一步的作為那您進一步作為是除了做勞動教育因為剛剛有提到勞動教育這個措施是很明確的日後想要來深化那請問一下還有哪一些作為"},{"start":750.11,"end":772.086,"text":"跟委員報告現在地方政府有時候去勞檢的時候他們有時候在醫院勞檢他們有時候也會去問所以或許我們也可以提醒地方政府將來做一些專案勞檢或申訴勞檢順便去查一下他們提醒抽查幾位護理人員有沒有簽署這樣的一個條款然後去提醒業者這樣的約定是不是有預言無法"},{"start":772.426,"end":785.621,"text":"提醒其實就很像沒有牙齒的老虎而且可能不是沒有牙齒的老虎根本是小貓咪一隻完全沒有嚇阻的效力那我先分享一下我的做法本辦呢已經在大概一個月前就提出說要去修正勞基法79條"},{"start":788.624,"end":810.323,"text":"把濫用違約金條款的雇主呢作為79條裁罰的標的之一就是如果你濫用違約金條款就會處2萬元以上10萬元以下罰款那也許這個方向是不是可以帶勞動部帶回去研議那我接著再講第二件事情第二件事情就是說衛福部有出一個這個規則叫做醫療機構護理人員勞動契約建議應記載跟不得記載事項"},{"start":815.367,"end":830.578,"text":"那這個所謂的因記載跟不得記載事項裡頭有羅列了一些項目就是說醫院你跟護理人員簽訂勞動契約哪一些東西應該記載上去那我這邊建議如果既然沒有法則"},{"start":831.378,"end":856.608,"text":"既然沒有罰則是不是過渡期的做法當然我們日後希望有罰則過渡期的做法可不可以在這個應記載跟不得記載的這份文件裡頭要求要放入一個事項什麼事項呢就是醫院或者是機構所為的例行性訓練或者是應該負擔的訓練成本不能夠作為雇主求償違約金的基礎"},{"start":857.813,"end":880.12,"text":"可以嗎第一個這個應該是衛福部當然我知道這是衛福部這是邱文達時期如果我沒有記錯是他弄出來的一個記載因記載會不得記載事項我想我們願意配合然後來提供我們的意見那我覺得勞動部如果這邊願意支持這樣的一個建議的話當然我們有勞動部長的一個建議我們也許好好的可以去跟衛福部來溝通"},{"start":882.897,"end":900.869,"text":"所以您同意嗎我們現在最後來做一個總結就是說本辦想請你們提供資料但是其實沒有裁罰資料那我知道其實治安署的署長他上次有來我辦公室拜會他提到說雖然沒有裁罰資料但有一些輔導的資料"},{"start":902.31,"end":931.728,"text":"把一些醫院濫用違約金條款沒有裁罰但有輔導的資料可不可以送到本辦一個月內提供讓我們了解現在實務上到底濫用違約金條款的現象是如何這是第一件事那當然第二個就是說這個應記載跟不得記載事項能不能記載說例行性的或者是院方應該負擔的這個基本的雇主的訓練成本不能夠作為求償違約金的一個條款您剛也表示可以了嘛就是站在法尊的立場"},{"start":932.228,"end":956.319,"text":"當然啊法組長我們全台灣大家不是都依法行政嗎我想我們的政府也對於依法行政這四個字非常的崇尚所以我也是樂觀其成那當然另外一個就是建立裁罰機制那我請部長不要這麼快的否決待會去研議一下思考一下那有什麼難處我們再互相來交流來討論這樣子好那謝謝部長謝謝部長的支持跟這個協助謝謝好謝謝邱副委員的諮詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}