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11:02:44","會議時間":"2026-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「清明連續假期疏運方案規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、審查委員許智傑等22人擬具「引水法第六條條文修正草案」案。【本次會議僅進行詢答】【4月1日及2日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.96284375,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.087843750000001,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.31971875,"end":21.512843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.356593750000002,"end":23.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.63471875,"end":25.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.33909375,"end":28.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.735343750000002,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.73846875,"end":38.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.69971875,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.75034375,"end":41.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.67846875,"end":48.360968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.93471875,"end":49.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.39034375,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.47471875,"end":49.508468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.369093750000005,"end":55.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.70159375,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.41846875,"end":58.485968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":64.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.08409375000001,"end":68.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.37471875,"end":68.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.72909375,"end":71.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.08721875,"end":72.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.86346875000001,"end":73.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.06159375,"end":75.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.42846875000001,"end":81.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.45284375,"end":94.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.35784375,"end":97.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.51784375000001,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.63159375000001,"end":105.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.25909375,"end":130.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.82909375,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.84971875000002,"end":139.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.58284375,"end":141.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.89909375000002,"end":155.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.69846875000002,"end":158.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.21284375000002,"end":163.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.97159375,"end":220.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.45846875,"end":207.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.03034375000001,"end":228.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.85596875000002,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.49659375000005,"end":260.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.04284375000003,"end":277.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.79346875000005,"end":279.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.12221875,"end":292.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.77846875,"end":297.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.41909375,"end":299.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.70971875000004,"end":304.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.48534375,"end":311.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.26909375,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.45846875,"end":317.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.97284375000004,"end":320.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.14534375,"end":330.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.96659375,"end":335.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.87721875,"end":336.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.12596875,"end":338.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.86409375,"end":347.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.30159375,"end":347.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.68971875,"end":413.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.73846875000004,"end":418.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.68721875,"end":418.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.22284375000004,"end":420.67409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.96096875,"end":425.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.47909375,"end":428.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.97659375,"end":451.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.28096875000006,"end":461.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.92471875,"end":481.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.04846875000004,"end":514.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.27971875,"end":517.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.9584687500001,"end":529.1128437500001},{"speaker":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謝謝主席 主席我們要先請交通部陳部長請陳部長委員好部長好 部長一開始當然真的剛剛一個臨時提案喔這個雙黃燈使用規範我們來做個是非題啦路邊臨停的時候可以打嗎目前的法規不行 對不行那突發情況緊急減速的時候可以打嗎"},{"start":35.941,"end":47.931,"text":"緊急減速煞車燈自然會亮起可以嗎你們說可以啦我們問過你們說可以沒關係這就是大家認知不同部分沒關係車輛故障的時候可以打嗎"},{"start":48.988,"end":70.827,"text":"可以可以那遇到大雨或大霧以至前方視線不連的時候可以打雙黃燈嗎這個是開霧燈開霧燈嘛所以不行嘛沒有後霧燈才可以開嘛對不對那路邊停車倒車前用示警後方來車這時候可以打嗎打方向燈才是正確打方向燈才可以嘛不能打雙黃燈嘛禮貌的回應他車讓道可以打嗎"},{"start":72.39,"end":96.415,"text":"應該是不行 不行 好部長不愧是交通部長基本上你的答案都是對的就是除了剛剛我們這個緊急簡述的認知不太一樣之外但是我們要提到這個部分這個在交通道道交條例第42條只要誤打的或者說認知不同的他的裁罰標準不依規定使用燈光就是法1200以上3600元以下的罰款那我今天跟提出來這個討論其實不管"},{"start":98.675,"end":116.702,"text":"哪一種情況我們要去討論說到底這個規範是要適應民情還是要加強這個宣導就像剛剛部長你提到的幾個問題以這個突發情況緊急減速或者是我們經常在路邊停車的時候我們打方向燈法規上說要打方向燈但實際上怎麼樣很多人當然會打雙閃燈那被檢舉那就被罰錢了嘛"},{"start":118.143,"end":139.705,"text":"那他本來的原因當然是希望說能夠警示後方說我這邊要停車或等等的所以來打這個警示燈因為打方向燈會有什麼問題因為打方向燈除非你一次倒車路過或一次路邊停車方向盤轉一次就成功了不然你那個方向燈會跳回去耶那又會被檢舉所以我覺得這個法規應該要重新的來去檢討怎麼樣適用包含剛剛信箱委員提案的那個部分"},{"start":140.646,"end":155.664,"text":"法規怎麼改或是說這個階段是用心勸導然後去了解一下真實的使用規範原來包含說像第六點這個禮貌回應他設這樣的道路我們常常在快速道路高速公路上切車道的時候看到前車跟我們感謝就打雙紅燈我如果擷取他"},{"start":156.735,"end":178.712,"text":"他要說謝謝喔 我可以檢舉他啊一千二三千六都是罰燈就來了所以這部分交通部的立場有沒有願意去做相關的檢討跟改善報告委員這方面的規定其實是跟世界的這個標準是一致的燈號的使用這個世界有一定的標準所以我們符合世界的這個一致的規範但是委員所提的這個很務實"},{"start":179.853,"end":207.004,"text":"一般民眾到底理解或不理解我相信一般的民眾用車開車的習慣我自己也開車有一些確實跟我們一般的習慣是不太一樣所以我覺得考駕照的時候要大家讀到這麼細也有點困難所以我認為這個部分規範的部分依據國際的標準但在執法的過程我們希望以勸導為優先我們所理解的其實警方不會主動來抓這方面"},{"start":207.904,"end":227.876,"text":"那但是如果有民眾檢舉的時候我們也期待說警方是不是用勸導作為優先至少讓民眾知道說這樣子的做法可能不符合我們目前的規定那以後就要注意因為我想要討論就是還是要回到法規回到法規本身當初立這個法或是這個燈號我們在開車的時候打任何不管左轉燈右轉燈這個警示燈"},{"start":228.897,"end":250.394,"text":"他的目的是什麼嘛 今天車子設計這個警示燈 比如說我們放 我會在這個時刻有人會在路邊臨停的時候打警示燈 或在後 倒車的時候打警示燈或是禮貌的回應他車讓道 我們都很清楚他的用意 他不是為了違規或他甚至他是故 他是刻意的去做這件事情 結果他是違規的所以我覺得在宣導上面 或在法規 在這個質疑上面 應該要有一個平衡啦"},{"start":250.854,"end":269.221,"text":"要回到原意嘛他不是故意要圍堵他不是就他打了這幾次並不會造成交通事故吧沒錯好不好這部分所以交通部目前調就是往勸導的方向去去執行對我們希望可以用勸導讓民眾能夠理解好部長謝謝喔那接下來喔我想最近國人很關心所謂的汽車安全的問題我想這兩天這新聞都非常大"},{"start":269.801,"end":291.655,"text":"好有的車子獲得這個TNCAP的這個認證五顆星那有的車子已經上市了好但是呢這個平等是零顆星那零顆星呢當然他們就回應說他們的車體結構很堅實而且所有等級車款都通過國家嚴謹安全審驗並取得安全審驗合格證他講的也沒有錯他確實有取得所以他才能上市嘛那問題來了"},{"start":293.256,"end":310.988,"text":"這個當初安全誰合格證不是你們給的可是這個TNCAP是交通部的指導下的規範你們是為了行車安全也肯定這件事情沒錯可是為什麼同樣都是國家標準前面的可以上市的標準長這樣子那後面我們TNCAP給出來的這個"},{"start":312.335,"end":337.38,"text":"的撞擊測試報告裡面它的特定車款它的這個平等這麼低就變成有兩套標準那麼未來能不能要求說至少上市前你要先做過這個測試再上市才可以保障用路人安全還是說就是繼續按照現行的規範我先上市了我們再後續再來做那如果講白了這一定會造成特定車廠他們的營業有受到衝擊啦那就沒有意思了嘛所以這個問題"},{"start":339.481,"end":347.172,"text":"這個安全標準能不能在上市前就先做到還是一定要上市之後我才能做這個實行工作報告委員我是不是請局長來回答一下"},{"start":348.071,"end":374.14,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下剛剛講的一個部分的話就是TNCAP的部分它是一個市場評價比這個國家這個強制要求應該要符的標準是更高的標準那所有剛剛委員有提到就是說車輛要上市銷售之前必須要取得審驗合格證明這個部分要符合的法規基本上就是要聯合國的法規跟歐盟跟這個日本跟韓國都這個一致"},{"start":375.74,"end":390.011,"text":"那現在也就是說有一些這個做TNCAP的那個標準有一些是強制法規沒有那有一些是他要求的標準比強制法規這個標準還要高所以這個評價起來就會有一顆星兩顆星三顆星到五顆星不等的這樣子的一個這個情況"},{"start":391.152,"end":417.89,"text":"那最近有一個車型它裡面就是說評價的這個結果這個不太好的一個這個部分的話那這裡面如果說有涉及到不是強制法規要做要求而是車子本身設計可能在於品質觀念有一些瑕疵這個部分的話那就必須實施這個預警預警性的這個招勵所以現在部裡面也在做這件事情部長 局長你們剛剛講當然線型當然就是長這樣子我也清楚知道說你們"},{"start":419.298,"end":425.644,"text":"但是問題就是說今天以這個車型為例今天看到大家看到那個影片他是連椅子都會飛出去嘛"},{"start":426.73,"end":451.515,"text":"就是安全帶也沒有什麼作用嘛那未來這個事情我們在上市前有沒有辦法提高到就是說如果今天它是符合你講的法定的標準它才能出場然後我們後面再做市場上的評價那至少基本安全都要有啊但是現在至少看起來這個狀況是在第一階段它的基本安全都沒有看起來是沒有做到的才會有這個評鑑零分的狀況產生那我們今天要問的是說"},{"start":452.715,"end":480.948,"text":"這個TNCP它相關的標準能不能部分的就是至少在安全性上主動安全性上把它列入在一開始出廠的法定標準裡面這個部分我大概跟委員報告一下譬如說它這個大概涉及到這個實車碰撞項目的部分那實車碰撞的部分現行這個法規強制要求已經有了那但是在這個TNCAP的部分的話它要求是相對是比較高是相對這個更高車速更快"},{"start":482.549,"end":503.071,"text":"所以基本我剛剛才一直跟我們報告就是說就國際通用的法規在這個十幾公里要求的這個膨脹他一定要符合才能夠上市銷售那現在在TN CAP要求到56公里這個部分比較相對比較高標準的部分的話他測試出來的一個市場評價確實是不如其他的部分"},{"start":503.391,"end":528.553,"text":"但是針對這樣子的一個情況的話就是陳委員講的部分未來在這個審驗端對於車廠品質一致性管控這個部分應該是有一些可以檢討再來做加強謝謝有麻煩你們真的不要把這列入不然真的這個消費者沒保障因為這個車款都已經賣很久了我想也是車銷售量非常高那對消費者是一個很大的影響我覺得這個如果交通部能夠事前把這個標準放進去我覺得未來"},{"start":529.634,"end":549.833,"text":"有機會比較能夠保障到這個駕駛人好不好好 我們加強事前的審驗好 那接下來最後一題也是這個我快速講一下這個世襲的問題當然這個世襲問題會被揭露也是因為現在董事長本來發了公開信提到說過去可能之前的董事長 之前的主管層級或之前的顧問去領了這個相關的這個經費那我們這邊也取得相關的這個內部的會議資料 會議報告喔"},{"start":555.646,"end":584.299,"text":"金額當然這個前顧問這是之前的高層領了上千萬的這個獎金 領走了那當然目前世襲的這個說法是說他們覺得追回就好因為在相關的本來的會議裡面也提到過去在獎勵辦法在個人獎勵的部分對董事長對顧問等等他其實本來的規範是沒有的那我不知道前面發生什麼事情為什麼這個顧問或相關的這些主管能夠把這麼高額的獎金領走那現在看起來"},{"start":585.701,"end":599.147,"text":"繳回就沒事了但是呢我想四期工程喔是交通部雖然你們沒有直接持股啦但是你們基本上也算是百分之百持股因為你們轉頭再轉頭嘛都算百分之百的關股啦但是說這樣子的狀況下面"},{"start":600.339,"end":614.904,"text":"有這麼奇怪的問題發生那到底交通部立場有什麼有沒有要移送減掉還是說大家把錢繳回就不算就沒事了會有這個問題報告委員這個部分其實我們世西公司之前也經過一個很詳盡的調查"},{"start":616.445,"end":645.126,"text":"那之前的這個幹部跟這個公司的同仁有這個領的獎金的部分程序不完備的部分那所以他們公司決定說以繳回的方式來處置那這個部分也已經繳回這個部分已經繳回我知道因為我要講說所以我要問部長的意思部長的態度嗎不該領的就不要領因為這個前面領的是未經董事會同意他就把這個錢去領走也沒有相關的規定那如果這樣"},{"start":646.187,"end":669.628,"text":"今天會提出來說他如果單純就是民營公司,那可能他們公司內部董事會沒意見,那大家就沒意見那今天事先,你是最大股東,貴部是最大股東,可能也是唯一股東啦在這個情況下面,你作為最大股東,你對於這樣的狀況,你會覺得前腳就算了嗎?還是說應該要去處理,不管背信也好,這可能沒有貪汙啦,但是可能有背信的問題,因為他完全沒有相關的機制"},{"start":670.549,"end":698.184,"text":"去授權他去領這個錢那還有包含說裡面這些腐爛的報價包含大家媒體也揭露了嘛這個企業總部本來預計要買多少錢他後來因為只剩多少只剩兩千兩千多萬所以我就兩千二兩千多億我就用兩千多億去做對不起口誤本來預算這個要買的裝潢是四千萬啊買完房地產之後剩不多錢剩兩千多萬他說好那兩千多萬就夠了就是你從頭到尾預算你的實施跟你的預算是搭嘎的那這樣虛報"},{"start":699.665,"end":705.321,"text":"因為講真的 我在講的是如果他是純粹民營公司 那他們家的事情但是因為今天世新工程是"},{"start":706.581,"end":735.8,"text":"中澳交通部100%持股雖然你們沒有直接持股但是就是100%持股的狀態下這個交通部的立場是什麼向委員報告針對公司治理的部分應該要更詳盡的部分我們已經請世襲公司做檢討而他們內部的這個規範也已經做了改變那所以未來可以避免這樣的狀況發生那另外針對這個是否有法律上的問題其實我們有跟請世襲公司跟法律的專業人士還有他們自己內部的法治單位"},{"start":737.504,"end":742.401,"text":"那這個部分是目前還沒有跟我說要做這個司法上面的追溯所以"},{"start":743.308,"end":769.286,"text":"他們就算了是不是我要確定這件事情交通部也覺得沒關係目前兩關一個是世西工程本身公司裡面的法務的部分去做監管第二個他的控股公司其實是中華顧問工程師財政法院中華顧問工程師他們裡面也有做過法律上面的研析那目前就是朝向先把經費追回那建構一個更完整的公司治理的機制"},{"start":770.106,"end":778.323,"text":"好 不然部長 反正剛剛林子緹也提到了你們要請這個中央顧問同事去提出相關報告讓我們後續看報告結果怎麼樣我們再追後面的狀況啦好不好好 謝謝委員好 部長謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}