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他晚一點就會到現場我們先請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1835.968,"end":1854.625,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十九次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十四年七月七日星期一九時至十三時十五分地點群賢樓八零一會議室出席委員陳委員趙姿等十一人列席委員黃委員國昌等八人請假委員"},{"start":1855.425,"end":1870.017,"text":"蘇清泉、邱振軍、陳瑩、楊耀、君英、丹娜絲、颱風影響無法出席而請假列席官員衛生福利部部長邱太元等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定"},{"start":1872.238,"end":1888.705,"text":"討論事項審查委員及黨團分別擬據社會救助法部分條文修正草案等30案本次會議經委員范雲、林月琴、楊瓊英、陳昭芝代表台灣民眾黨黨團及劉建國說明提案指去由衛生福利部部長報告"},{"start":1889.645,"end":1909.547,"text":"由衛生福利部部長說明後委員陳昭芝等數人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長勞動部勞動力發展署副署長施淑慧及法務部參事汪南軍紀各相關主管等及其答覆委員楊耀林楚英廖偉祥蘇清泉及陳瑩所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":1910.248,"end":1911.789,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1934.329,"end":1962.233,"text":"沒有好議事錄確定本日會議議程為邀請環境部部長經濟部部長海洋委員會農業部內政部國防部金融監督管理委員會針對光電設施對環境影響情形進行專題報告並被質詢現在介紹在場委員及列席的官員首先我們歡迎陳昭芝委員林月琴委員"},{"start":1964.932,"end":1989.41,"text":"王振旭委員接下來環境部部長彭啟明部長資源循環署賴銀署長環境管理署嚴旭明署長化學物質管理署謝彥儒署長環境保護司徐淑芷司長"},{"start":1992.17,"end":2016.717,"text":"水質保護司王月斌司長大氣環境司專委謝仁碩專委經濟部部長是請假經濟部部長昨天請假所以我們由常務次長賴建信謝謝能源署代理署長李軍禮"},{"start":2019.966,"end":2045.857,"text":"水利署副署長黃鴻甫台灣電力股份有限公司董事長曾文森也請假所以副總經理蔡志夢海洋委員會海洋保育署副署長李小霞農業部常務次長黃昭清"},{"start":2049.048,"end":2075.348,"text":"資源永續利用司司長莊老達好這個好好那其他的是下午才會抵達畜牧師檢任計政馮一月還有這個資源永續利用司司長喔這個有這下午才會到好及漁業署檢任計政趙守堯"},{"start":2079.451,"end":2108.287,"text":"你好農村發展及水土保持署組長鍾其榮農糧署檢任計政董真內政部國土管理署副署長徐彥鑫國土計畫組副組長朱偉庭在哪好"},{"start":2109.638,"end":2120.363,"text":"國家公園署綜合計畫組長張志安國防部軍備局工程營產處處長黃建勝金融監督管理委員會保險局專門委員王啟華漁業署我們補充介紹組長陳文生"},{"start":2138.66,"end":2143.345,"text":"好接下來我們就請第一位環境部部長彭部長報告時間6分鐘"},{"start":2151.713,"end":2171.56,"text":"招委委員還有各位部會的同仁還有現場的媒體大家早安那我由環境部來代表報告光電設施對環境影響的專案報告那我大概的會針對這一次受到光電的一個影響在這個嘉南的地區還有平熱地區的處理情形還有影響進行報告那最後呢就是環評的設施"},{"start":2172.76,"end":2195.32,"text":"那首先呢跟大家看一下我們太陽光電的模組的組成它大概有六個主要的一個元件包含了鋁框、玻璃、EVA膜還有太陽發電的元件塑膠背板還有接線盒那其實這個六大元件裡面呢就包含了兩個一個太陽光電模組一個是發電的元件就是半導體的晶片裡面呢並沒有任何的廢液或是任何的粉塵所以基本上"},{"start":2196.06,"end":2222.465,"text":"經由本部這個我們的廢棄物的定義的標準它不是有害廢棄物是叫做事業廢棄物所以目前來看的話損壞的話大概都是玻璃的損壞那目前呢回收的處置的制度的部分本部呢在過去呢已經建立一個回收處理的管理的體系那目前呢大概有四家公司後面呢還有一些公司也想投入它的整個總量呢大概是一個月可以有4400噸"},{"start":2223.985,"end":2247.32,"text":"那基本上因為經濟部能源署它有徵收的回收費一KW大概是一千塊左右那我們環境部經由這樣的體系之後經到我們回收體系的時候我們就會跟這個循環署就會跟能源署申請這個一千塊的這個費用那我因為每一個光電板它都有一個序號我們不管是國外的輸入或台灣製造都有一個序號跟繳費"},{"start":2248.621,"end":2270.939,"text":"所以這個每一片都是這個流向都是非常的清楚的那目前的清理的流程是這樣的有兩個部分因為這個暗場的業者的主管單位是能源署所以他們是首先是要求業者要自行的打撈收集然後最後來儲存然後要求要有一些供地的暫存目前這個事情都在進行當中那有些呢要跟"},{"start":2271.659,"end":2288.297,"text":"最后的这个清除业者也在委托签约那我所知道的有几家已经正在签约已经开始要准备清运了那我们环境部呢是督导这个业者进行这个限期的清理流向的追踪然后后续呢给他们一些相关的一个费用所以这个是"},{"start":2288.857,"end":2304.546,"text":"集中儲存清除處理清除處理就是環境部主要的一個工作那目前這一次呢有三個縣市受到影響首先是嘉義縣嘉義縣是這次影響比較大的地方主要是在布袋役族還有東石鹿草等地總共損壞了11萬4千片"},{"start":2306.567,"end":2332.672,"text":"大概是2200噸那多數呢是在這個新溫最大的地方在新溫滯洪池的地方那目前呢這個災損就5萬片左右那已安排的這個簽約跟清理當中那第二個呢是台南因為剛剛講的嘉義布袋是颱風登陸的一個點那當地有17級的強震風所以這個在海在這個所謂的這個滯洪池上面影響就很大那台南呢是第二個他們總共在"},{"start":2333.112,"end":2360.283,"text":"北門、七谷、將軍、雪甲、麻豆等地總共三萬一千片大概六百噸所以兩個加起來大概是十四萬五千片兩千八百噸的一個量目前第三個就是屏東屏東這個是福臺的光電設施因為原價的太陽能板已經在六月下旬全數的拆除了所以基本上現在就是一個海廢目前經過本部的了解這個禮拜天的時候"},{"start":2360.703,"end":2376.294,"text":"他在各位看到報紙上面或是新聞媒體上面看到的一個這種所謂的海廢就是我們認知的海廢他已經全數的清除完畢了那另外一個本部在禮拜一的時候特別派同仁到這幾個光電廠這個也經過當地的環保局來提供我們建議的方案總共針對四個點我們去量測這個水質"},{"start":2384.439,"end":2401.247,"text":"量測水質因為這幾個點為什麼這幾個點都是在颱風登陸點的附近也就是受創很嚴重的地方那基本上呢我們大概這四個點量了整個十個這個重金屬重金屬然後進行來標準那各位可以看得出來大概有一半都是屬於未檢出的"},{"start":2401.587,"end":2419.985,"text":"那其他有大概四五種大概都是低於環境的標準唯一的只有蒙不過蒙呢有兩個地方因為這個其實是當地的巴掌溪江南大橋的濃度它本身那個附近就比較高所以越高一點點所以基本上呢對我們南部的這個養殖漁業或是各地方的水質"},{"start":2420.926,"end":2445.992,"text":"這次經過我們禮拜一的量測到目前為止是沒有一個影響的那第二個是環評喔過去的環評是沒有只針對重要的濕地要實施環評但是在我們今年1月16號環境部已經修正發布了目前增訂環境敏感區位包含國家公園、野生保護地、自然保護區等等我們已經公布了那第二個是我們針對山坡地管制的規模針對兩萬瓦、千瓦"},{"start":2450.293,"end":2473.41,"text":"20MW以上或是面積15公頃以上必須要環屏那這個呢其實我們也是參考了日本日本的光電設施是40MW然後40公頃需要環屏我們認為台灣比日本還要更密集所以我們只有日本的一半左右那目前呢我們為了避免有這種所謂的規避環屏的情形只要鄰近的用地都會合併起來算到目前為止還沒有一個太陽光電廠跟我們申請環屏當中那第二個呢"},{"start":2476.112,"end":2498.114,"text":"我們深知這個所有的業者對於我們環境保護的重要性所以目前我們針對這種新型態的這個大家的需求我們希望訂定會商的也跟那個能源署要求他們訂定會商的程序研議納入公民參與的一個機制討論未來我們正在進行環評總體檢未來這個太陽光電板是不是要有更好的一個環評我們會進行來考慮最後呢"},{"start":2500.396,"end":2516.963,"text":"因為再生能源發展是我們這個邁向能源轉型跟淨零很重要的一環也是全球的一個趨勢第二個是各種綠能設施的建設都必須環境保護為優先以獲得社會大眾的支持跟永續的發展所以環境部會根據環境正義"},{"start":2518.804,"end":2541.003,"text":"資訊公開 科學治理的方式我們會用這三大核心的概念然後將強環評的機制法規的週休的嚴定還有災後的應變體系的完善建構我們希望能夠做到太陽光電設施全生命週期的管理這個也就是循環經濟的一個概念所以我們未來會持續來維護保持我國的一個環境的品質以上報告 謝謝謝謝 謝謝部長"},{"start":2546.121,"end":2565.646,"text":"那我這裡先報告一下昨天晚上半夜我們台電董事長曾文森有打電話給我因為有同仁觸電然後我卡到六雲齊美裝上ECMO聽了就很"},{"start":2567.179,"end":2579.849,"text":"很不捨那我在這邊要再一次的感謝所有的我們的台電同仁、中油同仁還有所有的行政單位的人大家為這場大的風災"},{"start":2582.683,"end":2606.881,"text":"出犧牲奉獻我們是再次的肯定跟欽佩所以我們曾文森董事長昨天晚上就在台南現在經濟部長還有台南總經理他們都下去了這邊再次跟他們肯定再來我們還是要感謝所有"},{"start":2607.898,"end":2630.118,"text":"另外一邊的同仁,大家也都要清楚,大家都要去北省啦,其他都不用說北省的生意、財產最重要再來我們請經濟部,經濟部長也有跟我請假,跟大家一併報告再來我們請經濟部報告,再來就開始質詢了經濟部報告五分鐘,可以嗎?"},{"start":2637.822,"end":2655.444,"text":"主席首先代表經濟部對於主席以及所有的委員對我們台電員工發生事故的部分的關心表示感謝主席跟各位委員大家好那承蒙本委員會的邀請就光電設施對環境的影響進行報告"},{"start":2656.966,"end":2676.104,"text":"那首先接軌全球的淨零的排放的趨勢國際上面都是以太陽能光電為推動的重點在全球能源的轉型跟淨零排放的目標之下再生能源已經形成了各國電力系統的主要的來源依照國際再生能源總數的統計資料"},{"start":2678.482,"end":2705.429,"text":"在2024為止全球再生能源的容量已經達到4943GW佔整體的電力裝置的容量46%而其中太陽能光電就佔了7成顯示再生能源已經形成了各國能源自主性還有實現永續發展的核心手段就亞洲地區的發展而言太陽能光電也是一個重點"},{"start":2706.149,"end":2734.264,"text":"那我國太陽能光電到目前為止裝置的容量是14.28GW佔整體的再生能源的裝置的總量68%與經常發生颱風侵襲的鄰近國家比如說是日本南韓那日本的光電的佔比是69%南韓是79%相當那此一發展顯示那太陽能光電具有穩定發展跟擴展的潛力"},{"start":2736.075,"end":2761.438,"text":"那第二個是跟諸位委員報告的是光電的設置對周遭的水質跟電磁波的這個影響經我們實際的量測都符合了標準首先有關水質的影響的部分國外如日本、韓國跟英國都已經有建置水庫型也就是水面型的太陽能光電的案例那符合各國的水質的標準也沒有影響水質的情況"},{"start":2762.339,"end":2778.289,"text":"那我國水庫的部分設置了水面型的光電的案例依照經濟部水利署的長期的監測顯示水質的部分都符合我們飲用水的標準另外我們國內太陽能光電協會也做過溶出的試驗將"},{"start":2780.728,"end":2803.832,"text":"他不會影響環境不會影響水質的太陽能的電板打破了之後浸泡在我們的存水裡面現在顯示經過長期的觀察還是符合水質我們還是符合基本的標準那至於電池廠的影響的部分國際非游離輻射防護委員會相關的報告顯示我國的"},{"start":2805.516,"end":2816.968,"text":"這個一般民眾的低頻的磁場參考的瀑布值是833毫高斯但依照我們研究單位位於在台南北門地區光電廠實測的結果距離在光電廠1.5公尺所測得的電池"},{"start":2823.855,"end":2841.371,"text":"電磁波強度小於一毫高斯更遠低於我們環境部所建議定定的建議值883毫高斯可確認它能光電在營運過程之中對於電磁場的這個強度極低對人體沒有傷害"},{"start":2843.137,"end":2859.73,"text":"那除此之外跟各位委員報告在供電的開發選址施工營運各個階段都經過嚴格的這個把關首先在低面型的這個推動的部分分為他的形式有些需要容許也需要變更那"},{"start":2860.43,"end":2879.731,"text":"環境部也訂定了一個加嚴的環境影響評估的一個審查的一個措施有關於複合型的利用比如說是餘電共生的太陽能光電的案例我們也已經融入了環社的檢核的機制那甚至要求業者提出更環境友善的措施"},{"start":2880.492,"end":2907.097,"text":"那除此之外跟郭委員報告此次太陽能光電我們全國的設置量14.73GW其發電的量的前後因為丹納斯颱風的影響我們看起來整體的災損的程度佔總設置的量0.4%那太陽能光電在風災前跟風災後它的發電量是差距極小"},{"start":2907.737,"end":2929.168,"text":"那對於災損的部分我們經濟部已經跟環境部依照剛剛彭部長所說明的這個機制來要求業主進行相關的這個清理跟後續的維護那最後跟大家報告創新的技術是接軌國際的發展的趨勢全是全球各國也在精進這個部分的作為"},{"start":2930.188,"end":2947.635,"text":"那離岸式的浮動式的太陽能光電也是一個趨勢那屏東加東離岸太陽能光電浮台的技術的試驗計畫是參考歐盟跟其他的國家的推動的這個案例那他的計畫是利用這個相往"},{"start":2948.115,"end":2948.255,"text":"HDP-1"},{"start":2978.435,"end":3001.281,"text":"最後跟各位報告的是為了持續來保障民眾的權益跟民眾的知情權我們經濟部已經在今年的3月31號然後修正電業的登記的規則除了設置大型的大量能光電要召開民眾說明會之外我們也訂定景觀跟生態的審定原則那除此之外"},{"start":3002.621,"end":3025.852,"text":"經濟部跟法務部以及農業部合作來推動太陽能光電廉政平台我們希望透過跨域的合作資訊的透明跟公司協力的措施來促進我們政策的規劃還有順利的執行以上報告敬請指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意好謝謝次長"},{"start":3027.54,"end":3053.858,"text":"好 我剛剛有打電話給齊美醫院總院長林院長他說現在莊業科某在留院齊美這個台電的員工他本來是要給他轉到總院結果沒有機會了因為情況很差所以大家該祈福把他集氣希望能度過難關那我們再次的感謝所有台電同仁經濟部要加強還是不行"},{"start":3057.92,"end":3084.212,"text":"好 本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答 作以下宣告本委員會詢答時間8分鐘 列席4分鐘10點半截止還原登記委員如果書面質詢 請於上會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案 11點截止收案那我們現在請第一位委員陳昭芝詢答"},{"start":3092.709,"end":3108.259,"text":"謝謝主席 有請郭智慧部長有請郭智慧部長有請郭智慧部長好 暫時不打 缺席下一個有請賴次長好 賴次長走"},{"start":3118.414,"end":3128.492,"text":"市長請教面對今天這麼重要的議題要詢答郭居輝部長無故請假請問他是不是藐視國會"},{"start":3130.224,"end":3147.977,"text":"報告委員並沒有因為昨天台電的員工因為趕電發生了意外剛剛主席有說明他現在的身體的狀況非常的危急所以我們部長現在就堅持趕到現場部長有能力搶救是不是部長可以到醫院去搶救是不是這麼重要的議題經濟部惹出來的禍"},{"start":3151.842,"end":3178.259,"text":"報告委員對於國人的生命跟生活台電董事長他去關心員工是應該的我們對員工包括我自己我們要給予深深的祈福跟感謝包括現在正在搶救的消防員包括當然所有參與搶救的中油跟台電的員工但是我想請教你他現在在裝葉克膜台灣第一葉克膜專家是誰"},{"start":3181.762,"end":3201.537,"text":"不是柯文哲嗎?放他出去搶救是不是更有用?是不是有機會救回人命呢?曾文森行嗎?郭基輝行嗎?我們也感謝衛福部包括剛剛主席也有提到我們希望透過我們現在的醫學的量能來針對台電員工及於搶救我們回到今天的主題"},{"start":3207.841,"end":3222.252,"text":"上星期經濟部宣稱離岸光捷這個伏台是屬於實驗計畫都是為了要測試這個光電伏台的系統在海上的耐受性結果經濟部的澄清報告漏洞百出很快被抓包"},{"start":3223.032,"end":3244.953,"text":"不僅僅是跟畜動業者他所聲稱的還有部分的這個關鍵版沒有移除的說法不一樣那關鍵版的移除情形也跟屏東縣政府講的狀況不一樣那我想人民有全知道真相請問市長到底現在移除的情況是什麼真相是什麼如果這個連經濟部都沒辦法講清楚呢"},{"start":3246.074,"end":3256.246,"text":"他不是只是抗風浪測試嗎那抗風浪測試如果只放浮板只放浮板沒有放這個光電板測試什麼呢他在測試浮板嗎還是測試光電板的浮板呢好謝謝指導"},{"start":3260.951,"end":3285.442,"text":"我們這個測試的計畫確實在颱風來臨之前所有的光電板已經已移除那我們在媒體上面看到的這些各式各樣的說法包括屏東縣政府業者自己我們也多次的來發表相關的這個訊息讓民眾的知道那事實上這種所謂的海面型太陽能光電它的測試的部分有包括它的載具"},{"start":3287.224,"end":3293.592,"text":"面對風浪 抗風浪的這個情形那這次丹納斯颱風從你的答案就說全部撤除了是不是那你海底有清除嗎你海底有去追查嗎有沒有遭到海底的我們這個部分要再仔細的再密切的你怎麼能說全部撤除乾淨了呢"},{"start":3304.266,"end":3323.237,"text":"那颱風天警報它啟動的這個SOP按照機制應該撤除哪些部分應該撤除哪些 你有SOP吧 有沒有SOP丹娜斯7月6號晚上11點40分登錄之前我們在前一天經濟部透過我們的災害緊急應變請告訴我 直接告訴我要撤除根據這個SOP颱風天啟動的要撤除哪些這個裝置"},{"start":3327.499,"end":3336.626,"text":"所有的不管是太陽能光電或是離岸性的風電他必須要做一些固定的一個作業海底我們還不知道發生什麼事情好那這個我只要講說離岸這個福臺他不是實驗你說是實驗這不是實驗遊戲場經濟部不應該用官方的帳號去幫光電業者背書這是完全錯誤的事情"},{"start":3349.755,"end":3369.768,"text":"絕對沒有這個事情我們面對於我們綠能的發展一向秉持公開透明你說他們全部移除他自己都說沒有移除啊很乾淨啊我們不希望有任何貪圖的情形發生市長市長上週一本辦公室有發函索取這個旭東他辦理這個離岸太陽光電系統的伏台的這個開發研究計畫那你們本來承諾說最晚11號要給我我是7月7號發公文的現在幾號了請問為什麼"},{"start":3378.413,"end":3407.139,"text":"到現在我還收不到你的計劃書呢這段期間我們一直在救災那能源署也一直在調配當地的儲冷跟發電所以沒有辦法調出計劃書嗎是這樣嗎容委員讓我說明一下委員所需要索取跟其他委員所需要索取的資料我們當天同仁跟委員的這個辦公室會有一些聯絡那至於委員的這個部分其他的委員我知道我有看過能源署已經有把資料送出去了"},{"start":3407.979,"end":3423.198,"text":"我只要這個續動開發技術開發研究案的計畫書你們核准的計畫書我只要這個部分今天可以給我嗎今天這個東西都啟動啊計畫書都之前程序都完成才會啟動研究機構大家都懂"},{"start":3424.059,"end":3438.169,"text":"那你要留下來修改資料嗎跟委員說明我們對於公眾利益的關心跟民眾權益的關心同等重要我們認為依照資訊公開法的這個部分我們希望有相關的法規等等等等 資訊公開法這個是用公帑的涉及公共重大利益難道你要把這個資訊揭露的這個主導權交給廠商嗎你還要問這個律優有嗎你還要問旭東嗎"},{"start":3449.498,"end":3478.019,"text":"他同意才行嗎他內部有一些他自己的公司的營運的基本的一個訊息那這個部分依照資訊公開法的部分我們必須要去依法執行市長你這個理由我們聽你的花我們的錢現在傷害了人民的性命家產你現在還告訴我說你的計畫什麼辦法讓我看根本說明我們對所有的計畫無論在查核在督導甚至是針對保證的部分你該蓋的該塗黑的都塗黑你下午可以給我這個資料嗎你下午可以給嗎這個部分我們必須要依照資訊公開法的程序來處理7月7號我就發函了"},{"start":3479.451,"end":3490.2,"text":"你自信公安法要處理多久你要私下修改東西嗎你不得不讓我們這樣懷疑啊當然不可能我們會去做這種行為那針對於你什麼時候可以給我呢我這個要求有過分嗎我們要看計畫書啊造成這麼大的問題"},{"start":3493.755,"end":3510.289,"text":"在合法合規的這個情況之下然後予以落實用公帑涉及公共利益的東西你們把資訊揭露權的主導權決定權交給廠商並沒有這回事這個案子在實施之前也有公開的聽證麻煩你稍後一下那個麻煩彭部長"},{"start":3513.018,"end":3516.362,"text":"董事長您一定聽實際有些2023年荷蘭有一家水利研究機構他報告指出當然你剛好做一些報告不過這是人家的研究報告損壞的太陽能板可能會將有毒物質跟重金屬釋入這個帶入海洋環境那太陽能的電磁板滲漏的這個一個"},{"start":3531.061,"end":3535.465,"text":"風險跟影響取決於他所受用的材料就是離岸這個光電的浮板他所決定他會決定曝露的一個表面積例如這個鍍鋅鋼的或某些房屋塗層可能會讓鋅鎳隔等這個都凍金屬滲入水中那這些物質已經知道是會影響海洋生物的他不是只有對人的生命海洋生物所以也就是環境部一開始說的如果太陽能板"},{"start":3557.725,"end":3586.907,"text":"含有重金屬這個物質會有污染的風險請教部長您是否有掌握這次戴拉斯颱風所造成的整組的光電模組雖然你剛剛說結構材料成分的掌握是否有事先重金屬釋出的風險評估我想請問你一整套的光電模組從太陽能板浮動平台 錨到接線箱 潛水電纜完全沒有污染的可能性嗎完全沒有嗎"},{"start":3587.933,"end":3602.951,"text":"包括如果說長期的話我認為是可能還是會逐漸的釋出出來因為例如說我到現場去看破碎的實際上的半導體的模組在上面其實如果它是用銅線背後包裹的銀"},{"start":3603.752,"end":3621.298,"text":"你們曾經有講過說你們主流的太陽能板中玻璃佔了74%以為是相對安全但是請問你所謂的主流的太陽能板全台灣用的百分比多少就那一塊嗎全台灣主流你認為相對是安全的東西那整個台灣用的比例是多少才叫主流"},{"start":3621.798,"end":3632.527,"text":"基本上大多數就是幾乎是這個樣子都是一模一樣的樣子因為那個基本上全世界大概都是這個樣子那當然這個研究我們也在搜集當中有超過40%嗎還是都是雜質有40%用這個你所謂的主流太陽能板嗎"},{"start":3640.303,"end":3655.241,"text":"基本上這個太陽能板都是一樣的一個規格啦好我再了解一下這個資料那民進黨執政以來把相當多的資源放在投入光電並且將綠能視為引以為傲的一個政績但現在出事誰來負責請問彭部長我想知道現在暗場的"},{"start":3656.723,"end":3679.919,"text":"這個副廠 廠副的進度如何不然你有沒有去看左邊 左下圖這張圖這個是嘉義 你看到 嘉義新聞光電廠案帳號像周的模樣喔 那個颱風都過了好幾天喔但水上的光電廠還是一團亂請問這是哪一家業者是雲報能源還是台達電因為網路上這種說法都有啊那我看請問部長或市長誰能夠回答我這是誰家的這是誰家 哪一家業者的"},{"start":3682.739,"end":3696.656,"text":"抱歉這個其實我們昨天我有特別派我的署長到現場探勘其實這個照片是剛開始發生的其實現在已經有顯著的一個清楚了但是還是有堆置你沒有回答我是哪個業者這個業者是雲報能源還是台達電因為網路上是這樣說的我們有權利知道是誰的"},{"start":3703.047,"end":3709.289,"text":"這個要請人員經濟部 您不知道嗎沒有掌握嗎還是不能講 跟委員說明新聞的這個損害的這個狀況我們因為這期間搭配要優先復電所以我們在163線的這個部分"},{"start":3719.414,"end":3737.516,"text":"搭配護墊然後優先搶修那除此之外的話這些的這些的這些的迫害的模板都已經集中收集起來重建的錢誰來付永新這個預算的來源是誰提供永新這家公司是永新公司"},{"start":3738.871,"end":3753.31,"text":"我想我想再請問等一下你他的cover的範圍有多少你以為這3%的這個受損受傷的觀點沒有0.4%跟委員說明整個重建的過程要花多少錢這個要看整個整體的蒐集之後再來進行"},{"start":3754.992,"end":3760.935,"text":"那我們全國大概有33個案場受到程度不一的損害那整體的損害率只佔我們所有的裝置的比率0.4%彭部長我想請教彭部長這件事經濟部他是目的事業主管機關那是不是應該讓水上光電做一次完整的政策環評呢您過去的立場是政策環評"},{"start":3780.544,"end":3803.35,"text":"我們是希望能源署可以來做啦我們也跟他們在磋商當中賴市長不好意思我還沒請你回座那你支持這個政策環評嗎風電廠現在出事了你說如果是測試如果是測試那就是不合格嘛失敗嘛你這個號稱是花了1億多的一個費用這個研究計畫花了1億多你號稱可以用20年啊現在是證明不堪一擊啊颱風不過13"},{"start":3807.671,"end":3822.019,"text":"首先跟委員說明旭東的案子他是一個試驗的計畫那整體的太陽能的這個光電達到需要環評的這個標準我們都有實施環評那除此之外的話我們在這個月你會允許先做環評政策這是預前的評估"},{"start":3825.134,"end":3851.222,"text":"我們也在跟社會各利害關係人在溝通不管是在我們的環境部已經說要做了環境部的職責 你要配合嗎反團所提出來的意見我們都逐一的做一個相貴的一個答覆至於營運中的這個案場的部分即便颱風清洗了布袋地區當天其實它的發電量跟颱風錢未來重建的所有費用我們要有一個瞭解"},{"start":3852.402,"end":3877.211,"text":"責任的歸屬 費用的使用一次試驗的示範 那是業者自行負擔的政府不會去負擔這個部分那後續的清理的部分也是 責任的部分也是業者的一個責任你掉到哪裡去了 東西到底散播到什麼程度長期的影響是什麼這個我們會跟屏東縣政府跟海委會 你的要做的是把關的部分嗎還是"},{"start":3878.732,"end":3885.315,"text":"好 那我今天就到這裡 謝謝主席 差不多時間 謝謝兩位謝謝委員 謝謝部長 次長下一位我們請蘇清泉召委謝謝 謝謝主席我們請彭部長跟經濟部次長請部長 次長委員早我對辛苦我們先看一段影片"},{"start":3918.097,"end":3936.149,"text":"委員環境衛生委員會的召委今天114年7月9號我特地來到現場就是各位看到嘉東外海這個就是平台破碎的東西看到這個今天"},{"start":3937.811,"end":3953.464,"text":"颱風過了兩天,浪那麼大,裡面夾雜了大量的泥沙今天又是漲潮,大潮,整個海岸全部都是這樣一片一片的看到這個真的觸目驚心,我們這個離岸消火塊上面卡的滿滿的都是這個說要48小時要清,請問怎麼清?"},{"start":3960.19,"end":3974.062,"text":"這個一個禮拜半個都清不了,所以我們經濟部、能源局不要坐在辦公室,在那邊亂講、胡扯、瞎扯好,我要跟我們公務人員奉獻,講話不要亂講"},{"start":3978.151,"end":4004.078,"text":"不要沒有看到就胡說八道,這個你要負責任的有時候人家告你,你是要負刑責公務人員要幹到最後被判刑,連刺繡金都沒有,這個我替你們擔心所以講話要好好的講那我要今天要自己很沉痛的講你們經濟部講的橋段,一段接一段都我不會講"},{"start":4005.855,"end":4011.039,"text":"別說那個海上平台上面沒有架設"},{"start":4035.775,"end":4057.059,"text":"好 第一個先講說這個平台上面沒有架設光電板這個是在不過這是五月份人家這已經照出來了空拍都出來了所以是有架設第二個說有架設但是在7月4號以前都清除完畢7月4號以前這個台灣還是一個熱帶氣旋"},{"start":4060.154,"end":4084.911,"text":"我們住在屏東一天天在補紅苔所以我們都很清楚的我們都要觀青麥道 都要看紅瀉我們每一次颱風就是這麼輕浮從台海峽上來的颱風這四五十年來才三個大颱風一個就是塞洛瑪 一個就是去年的山鎖鱷還有這一次 這個是中度颱風而已"},{"start":4086.604,"end":4107.415,"text":"那我一直懷疑說 為什麼袁嘉蘭為何如此的脆弱不堪一擊 所有的謊言都一個中途才能摧一個盤子好 那你現在說 你在7月4號之前都把它拆光了拆光了 所以下面的平台全部都亂成一片"},{"start":4108.581,"end":4132.413,"text":"都泡泡了 然後這個是High density polyethylene嘛你剛剛講的嘛 就是聚乙烯嘛聚乙烯 那個以前的環保署長魏國彥還跟我講說他會分解成小的顆粒 會融到海水裡面他請我能不能動用一些力量去海邊採集 看看有沒有這個"},{"start":4133.453,"end":4146.387,"text":"有沒有這個塑膠顆粒會被魚吃進去人跑到人體 我說好 我代替感動的啊不對 你等一下給我回答一下好 現在就是前面講沒有換光電盤"},{"start":4147.83,"end":4164.678,"text":"那再來就講,一方光電板,但是台灣錢都踩完了,我真的打100個問號,那不好聽耶,那在社會上很難社會,你看工人在裡面,所以講話要實在講,啊有光電板落在海淪位,可能請很多啊,現在有潛水的人,來跟我說,西綠球的,恆春的,還有大鵬灣的,潛水的時候,我們來比看看啦,讓我比到,這要請什麼?"},{"start":4177.608,"end":4194.818,"text":"所以經濟部不要亂講話業者要怎麼講我沒有意見那全部去到現場的國會議員只有我一個因為其他人不方便去其他人很尷尬所以他們都沒去就講到這樣我們不要再互相攻擊所以我要跟經濟部講事實是什麼"},{"start":4198.869,"end":4215.471,"text":"謝謝委員的指導事實上氣候變遷極端的這個事件無論發生在什麼地方那個地方他受到的這個損害我們都必須要謹慎的來因應那這一次登陸在布袋是120年來第一次從布袋來登陸"},{"start":4216.312,"end":4233.378,"text":"所以我們現在看到包括嘉義跟台南地區現在還在非常努力的在復建之中所以顯示我們面對極端的這個事件無論是在哪一個地方也不是只有雲嘉蘭特別的脆弱事實上我們都是需要提高韌性這第一點"},{"start":4234.258,"end":4261.579,"text":"第二點委員所說明的太陽能光電板確實在旦那斯颱風來臨之前業者都已經拆除他為什麼會拆除因為接下來7月8月就是颱風的一個季節在他們7月之前他們在巡檢原來委員所影片中所看到已經有架設太陽能那個地方他們發現說這些固定的鎖定針對於颱風還是必須要審慎所以他們就把那個上面"},{"start":4262.179,"end":4281.966,"text":"的一個太陽能光電板把它拆除掉了好 你說這個可以放20年他講的啦 20年然後可以抗7到14公尺的大浪我們大海邊的人我告訴你7到14公尺的大浪是多大你知道嗎"},{"start":4282.54,"end":4287.747,"text":"那你現在如果要做試驗花了一億三千五百萬去補助他然後什麼陳大也做過模型實驗那你應該把太陽板綁在上面來切這個風胎這就是輕度風胎中度風胎而已嘛"},{"start":4297.52,"end":4320.089,"text":"我們現在就拔這個給它起什麼拔拔起來我們不能這樣子因為我們必須要有循序漸進的先去測試平台是否能穩定那我們必須要相信科學雖然說相關實驗室有做過所謂的風浪的一個部分但是我們不能貿然的把這些的光電板搭載在我們還沒有經過現場實證的所以這個是還沒有發電嘛還沒有發電"},{"start":4324.511,"end":4327.894,"text":"他沒有?一度電都沒有發就是還在做測試我現在測試的 拔拔作多的測試那些都是土的東西嘛那些白的車 那些白的大車 白的公司是一樣的科學性的測試啊 它有科學性的試驗的程序"},{"start":4346.232,"end":4372.545,"text":"那基本上為什麼這個是在能源的科技的專案裡面因為我們台灣的環境包括海域的狀況剛剛委員也有說明我們常常會發生7級以上的這個陣風那這一次的話我們看到這個颱風它在登陸點的話事實上都有超過17級的一個陣風那這種強烈的這個陣風即便我們路上的一個電感我們也很困難說"},{"start":4375.086,"end":4394.476,"text":"避免這個傷害事實上現在委員所看到的在嘉義跟台南沿海地區現在你假如去看的這個電感都是我們台電的弟兄在這一兩個禮拜新立起來了他總共有將近3500根的電感左右那當然我們現在積極的很辛苦的在"},{"start":4395.417,"end":4403.264,"text":"這個台電這一方面的努力大家有目共睹全台灣人都肅然起敬都很欽佩,那都是我們的姓名,那都是我們的鄉親,我們自己的同胞所以這個不用講,我們大家都感同身受現在要跟你講的就是每一次風頭一天還要夾起來一天還要夾,沒有地形地貌的破壞,所以從上面然後水氣又不足"},{"start":4420.302,"end":4439.09,"text":"到哪裡哪裡都災情慘重那我們的雲嘉嵐就是一百年來所有的颱風從東邊來的都被中央山脈啪一下就剩一百多年所以一百年來都這樣小小的風災所以我看他們的建築是極度的脆弱"},{"start":4440.07,"end":4444.632,"text":"百姓的房子 大家住在那裡 現在這百姓幾間房子 沒房子要出動你知道沒房子耶 看盤簿耶 等一下倒掉了你們有什麼任性啊 哎呦 你也拜託你現在再架設回來 恢復原狀 還是用更強的電感"},{"start":4462.623,"end":4482.355,"text":"還是揮霧岩莊那再來不是完蛋嗎我們現在的這個電感一般的電感是7級的電感大概可以測抗差不多是10級左右14級左右的陣風現在所換製的這個電感是低級的電感是該納風性的但是基本上"},{"start":4482.955,"end":4504.876,"text":"大自然的這個力量我們真的是要節省那我們也這幾年來非常的努力在提升我們關鍵基礎設施無論是電力水力能源系統或是我們公有系統的這個韌性那城市之間的這個韌性也在加強包括我們地方都有很多的自主的這個防災的一個措施"},{"start":4505.416,"end":4523.148,"text":"所以我們現在當然這段時間我們要積極的努力復建那我們也希望結合民間的力量讓所有這些雲加南地區相關的沿海的民眾能盡速的恢復日常的生活然後台電蔡副總我請教你"},{"start":4524.409,"end":4541.535,"text":"你們這次被電的這個員工是你們的員工嘛對不對那你們一大堆都是外包廠商都是開口合約常常聽到他們在complain常常聽到他們訴苦陳情說你們的開口合約極度的苛刻然後呢"},{"start":4542.615,"end":4567.703,"text":"都用標案的什麼案的 反正對他們也沒什麼在照顧啊這些人如果受傷 你們有連帶之責任嗎 還是你們都沒在插手我們不會有說 報告委員不會去不理不理所有的承攬商的同仁啦是搶修包括台電的自營的同工班就台電的同仁跟承攬商的夥伴 我們都同等的重要你們都同樣的"},{"start":4569.884,"end":4584.717,"text":"今天如果受傷這個人是外包廠商,你們會這樣三巨頭都跑下去嗎?對同仁或是男同仁的關係?我很懷疑,你們要善待我們臺灣所有的勞工朋友好不好?經濟部長,我請問你,這個你要善後"},{"start":4594.419,"end":4618.214,"text":"還有環境部長 你要怎麼算好整個外國市場 光電板十幾萬片這講的 那個光電板你一再的講 早上你剛剛也講不會有環境的污染 不會裡面有液態所以是什麼一般事業會欺負嘛 不是污染性會欺負嘛那你這個是要怎麼分解 怎麼處置 怎麼弄"},{"start":4620.423,"end":4636.242,"text":"第一個當務之急在災後我們首先必須要儘速的復原清理這是一個很重要的事情那除此之外在行政面我們針對於這個所謂的科專的這個計畫我們會依照契約的程序來做處理那除此之外的話"},{"start":4636.803,"end":4656.908,"text":"我們也希望說我們針對於全國的包含是供電的設施或是綠能的設施然後記取這次丹納斯颱風的這個經驗那有必要再結構性的再需要再做補強或是在這一次我們災害復建過程裡面我們發現的一些的相關的問題所以分解什麼是有環保部長您有什麼"},{"start":4661.829,"end":4675.662,"text":"那個報委員那個...特別的抽象那個分解啦我拜六有去看過一週嘛 你再看我有...我去苗栗啦苗栗 到苗栗去看...看...看...看處理場我去看處理場喔 你看處理場本來要去看啦這禮拜啊 你來拜這裡質詢啦"},{"start":4679.565,"end":4694.61,"text":"我去看的時候,它大概92%可以回收像鋁礦可以回收,玻璃回收,半導體這個板可以做鏈結,銀跟銅都會出來你看玻璃板那塊會破的,變成溫度,人家就會刮到,那就是最大的問題其實玻璃的部分是要處理的"},{"start":4703.453,"end":4732.54,"text":"玻璃的但是現在我們把破壞的可以看得到打撈起來然後就可以再回收再利用玻璃也可以回收玻璃回收再利用在一般的建築裡面現在我們已經有這樣的技術水質的部分我們會嚴格來處理海岸的就是說因為現在海洋廢棄物很多這種所謂塑膠微粒這個也是我們關注的焦點這次我們會到時候我們會跟前署長在質疑你們這個會有塑膠微粒你要做什麼"},{"start":4735.621,"end":4753.149,"text":"這很多,淹地什麼什麼都有啦現在蘇江圍嶺在海洋真的是越來越嚴重啦我知道啦,就是這種碎片所以我們要求他們要打撈,他們現在大的打撈起來但是可能還有些浮在海面上啦,可能還會有啦好,那最後一張,因為時間到了,超過了這個是軍中的,小心喔,國安部的,下次在K你們"},{"start":4761.824,"end":4770.787,"text":"那邊的光電把他放在那個戰車啦什麼我是陸戰隊出身的啊你自己放在那邊的電管啊又放光啊那不就在人家引導說快點揮彈快點給我撥啊這下去都可以用戰車啊這個是颱風有沒有受傷"},{"start":4777.993,"end":4789.886,"text":"跟委員報告在我們國防部標諸設置太陽光鏈的暗場那經過我們7月15號的清查都沒有災損的狀況再注意一下我們當陸戰隊的人看到這樣觸摸軍心怕死人 都放光"},{"start":4797.148,"end":4801.891,"text":"好,最後一個,我要看那個農,前幾天養豬學會的來陳情喔,部長,藍心部長,農工分離啦,工廠拼到草皮,開端,啊,伺服的你如果開端,開的錢都一樣,要怕死人。"},{"start":4814.178,"end":4839.636,"text":"這個我們現在研議啦要修改空污法因為這個要修空污法有啦但是那個量不多啦不多啦那個量不多啦啊但是齁那個其實這個業者其實也是也有地啦所以也就有地啦所以其實當然我們知道他們的訴求但是我們也研議了齁這個我們會研議啦這個是整個養豬學會來國民黨都會拜訪"},{"start":4843.458,"end":4850.622,"text":"這要修空污法啦 我們現在正在研議當中趕快拿來修啦好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝委員下一位我們請林月琴委員主席麻煩我們的彭部長跟賴次長還有次長 謝謝"},{"start":4870.273,"end":4873.759,"text":"李委員早部長早我們先來釐清"},{"start":4875.217,"end":4899.614,"text":"一下爭議 等一下再請我們的經濟部次長這邊那部長這次風災過後呢新聞跟社群上又開始流傳一些謠言為什麼講謠言因為2023年的11月14號台灣四十查核中心就已經講說它是謠言說被謠言產生的太陽能光電板那因為說這次謠言在講說太陽能"},{"start":4902.296,"end":4918.213,"text":"反而損壞後會有毒 環境污染這類謠言每一次選舉都會出現一次所以是茶樓中心為什麼在2023年11月14號會去提著所以我還是要再問清楚太陽能板如果跟我們常見的螢幕"},{"start":4919.144,"end":4944.969,"text":"那3C的產品相比廢棄後環境風險到底有什麼差別包委員其實我們因為我禮拜六我去看整個列檢的過程一個一個去看其實是不會有直接的污染所以它我們是當成事業廢棄物它不是有害廢棄物那但是呢其實任何一個有金屬的東西在水質裡面如果放長期長期那我們就要關注了所以這個其實我們還是當成事業廢棄物來處理所以沒有這種所謂的網路上謠言這樣的危害"},{"start":4948.8,"end":4977.054,"text":"那環境部也說太陽能板不是免污染的綠色標章如果回收不完全的話對整個食物鏈的影響是什麼基本上我們沒有這種綠色標章我們有綠色標章但是沒有針對光電板所以那個媒體報導寫的是有錯誤的那我們基本上呢它是一種所謂的綠色的這個再生能源的一個設施但是它是一個環保的一個設施但是它其實如果壞掉的話它一定要到我們的廢棄物的處理方式來解決"},{"start":4977.874,"end":4994.782,"text":"再來也有人說太陽能板不能回收這說法正確嗎可以回收我們目前知道的是92%全回收那依據目前的規定這些損壞或汰換的也就淘汰的太陽能板是不是能夠依據我們的廢清法第28條來做處理"},{"start":4996.904,"end":5021.507,"text":"對 報告委員我們現在正準備要預告我們已經預告了我們要修廢清法未來呢現在當然現在的這個處理是由能源署處理然後我們循環署去跟他們申請經費但是未來呢如果我們廢清法修正過後我們就要強化這個管理的措施會由我們循環署同意來做處理變成我們循環體系裡面的一部分那目前有人說我們海上還是有光電板就是這次風災後你對這樣的說法要不要說明一下"},{"start":5022.488,"end":5026.836,"text":"因為海委會聽說有派潛水服去打撈去看請海委會來說明"},{"start":5028.22,"end":5057.626,"text":"跟委員報告海委會因為也擔心說海底會有光電板所以我們在昨天天氣狀況比較許可的情況下怕了8米的潛水員下去大概升到6到10米然後去看一下有沒有那個光電板那目前因為因為那個地方可能能見度比較差大概只有20公分而已但是陳選研還是有去用觸摸的方式是沒有看到光電板現在已經確認是目前沒有對目前我們巡查的區域大概是1000公尺乘以1000公尺"},{"start":5060.908,"end":5077.8,"text":"部長針對這次風災後巨量的廢氣光電板環境部的機制跟流程跟處理情況是什麼還有你們怎麼去監督就如何監管因應你們的這個流程畫得非常的簡單是不是都能夠做到"},{"start":5078.92,"end":5103.047,"text":"因為我們環境部是負責把這個光電板廢棄光電板處理完回收然後處理送到這個去化的場目前有四家那我們也去看了這個家的他們的量能是夠的但是我們要擴大他的量能我們會有一個法令可以是許可他因災後的量能讓他們也算出來大概一個半月可以去化這個廢棄的板但是這個在當地損壞"},{"start":5104.167,"end":5132.496,"text":"然後送過去之間因為他們還涉及到合約的關係跟保險公司還有整個清除公司的這個契約的關係所以還要等一段時間我們現在就督促他們趕快能夠完成所以目前這樣的一個程序呢在我們掌控當中我們是希望他們在希望他這個禮拜不要再堆置在路邊讓大家的感受上有這麼大因為總共14萬多片所以其實這個對景觀的壓力的確是很大的那部長也有人擔心光電板運作會產生電磁波"},{"start":5133.158,"end":5156.301,"text":"那低頻的噪音或光害影響生活環境跟生態針對這些問題現在有2025年版本的地面型太陽光電設施景觀及生態環境審定原則那這套原則夠不夠用部裡邊有沒有協助地方做我們的生態監測未來如何落實這個請我們執掌"},{"start":5157.953,"end":5182.584,"text":"跟委員說明我們事實上由試驗單位研究單位所實際的測得在光電廠旁邊1.5公尺裡面事實上測得的電磁波是一個毫高斯但遠低於我們現在環境部所公布的833毫高斯的範圍裡面這是所謂的電磁波的一個部分好 謝謝部長先請回 接下來我都是問經濟"},{"start":5184.661,"end":5208.596,"text":"這次颱風後實際受損的太陽能光電板面積大概有多少 為什麼這樣問你的報告寫0.4 那環團這邊的事實上是0.24可是網路上傳的是24%這三個數據都差非常多 所以想問一下你們的數據到底是怎麼掌握到的"},{"start":5210.9,"end":5226.405,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會說明在一個極端的事件發生的時候他那個數據都一直不停的滾動增加比如說我們以停電戶數為例的話那之前是報六十幾萬戶那現在已經統計到一百萬戶左右"},{"start":5230.126,"end":5243.016,"text":"那至於剛剛委員所垂詢的這個部分網路上有人講是0.24那我們因為這幾天因為所有的路況都通了然後我們所有的都可以去阻礙清朝可是網路上有講24不是0.24我們也很"},{"start":5245.858,"end":5274.478,"text":"同仁事實上在救災的過程其實也蠻困擾的因為有一些虛假的訊息然後我們要去回應然後不但是要回應那其實對於努力在做我們光電或是在能源轉型的所有的同仁而言事實上信心也就受到一些一個衝擊那這邊我們提到的是我們事實上總共有33個案場受到程度不一的損害這個照片裡面是損害"},{"start":5274.838,"end":5302.551,"text":"所以目前確定的你現在此時此刻現在能掌握到的是0.4%百分之0.4那現在的損壞的這種狀況是不是在你們當初設置我們最大耐風強度因為這次十六級風相比到底有沒有符合你當初的標準就是說這樣的損壞率跟你當初在設定說最大耐風強度那因為這次我說到了十六級風你覺得這個"},{"start":5303.781,"end":5332.262,"text":"還符合你當初的標準內嗎這些在設置上面都符合當時設計的這個技術的規範那委員現在圖面上所看到的這個暗場我們可以看到除了他非常的扭曲之外他旁邊的部分還有一些是相對損害嚴重程度比較低位的那最重要的這種水面型的他的固定的方式他必須要比較好的一個牢固那因為"},{"start":5333.042,"end":5346.99,"text":"風力在捲他是一個逆時針的方向在捲所以我們看到這些大型的這個損害的部分他有一些扭曲的部分他是隨著風向的部分來做一個扭曲那這個案場也是在我們颱風登陸的這個附近"},{"start":5348.911,"end":5371.625,"text":"那基本上安安委員所提到的未來我們的管控跟加強的這個機制啊我們部長已經開過多次的會議啊那我們也認為說不論是太陽能光電或是離岸風電或是任何的利用能設施甚便是我們傳統的能源設施我們都必須要在精進我們的任性的這個座位好那"},{"start":5372.265,"end":5388.05,"text":"在這些商業的光電暗藏設施的損壞當然我們講是說要由暗藏業者自行支付我們的處理費用可是外傳又說是不是這些回收重建都是全民買單"},{"start":5389.711,"end":5407.652,"text":"所以就要來問說到底政府有出錢嗎?甚至政府有沒有其他貼補?否則為什麼有這樣的謠言?區民回收滿單絕不是事實委員這邊所講的誰維修誰復原誰回收完全都是由設置的業者來進行散開三項的一個工作"},{"start":5408.112,"end":5425.173,"text":"因為他們當時在設計的時候他也有繳一些的回收的費用甚至他在運維的過程裡面他就必須要履行當時籌設許可或是電業執照的一個審定的一個要求那災後對於這種各類再生能源安償的"},{"start":5426.392,"end":5453.465,"text":"損害狀況 我們看你的報告大概目前統計大概14萬5千片2800公噸那相關數據你怎麼這個掌握是不是有建立整個系統性的建立回報機制是暗場來跟你們回報還是你們自己調查還是有跟保險 因為一般來講這個應該有保險公司承保嘛他們最清楚整個損害狀況所以你們資料有做串接嗎 串聯嗎"},{"start":5454.843,"end":5470.678,"text":"第一個所謂回報的部分除了他自行回報之外我們同仁也會去查看那除此之外的話透過縣市的鄰里的這些系統他也會做一個回報那至於說保險業者的部分因為他會在整體的災後"},{"start":5472.56,"end":5499.622,"text":"一定的時間一段的時間之後他這個部分他如果是說這些業者有跟他去投保的話他要去投保的理賠保險公司會派照保公司或是相關的理賠的這個專員去現場去看那基本上我們經濟部跟環境部都在剛剛彭部長所報告的那個平台的機制之下我們有互相去核對這些的一個數據"},{"start":5503.487,"end":5530.71,"text":"市長現在太陽光電板的大規模設置大多是密集的開發可是我認為應該朝向複合來應用的發展跟台灣各地的產業社區環境結合而不是只追求發電量跟收益最大化卻忽略在地社區的一個治理連結所以我知道你們今年有修正我們的電業登記的規則強調社區發展的結合像是地面型的光電暗藏在"},{"start":5531.42,"end":5554.97,"text":"申請籌設或擴建的時候就必須要辦我們的地方說明會加強跟居民溝通保障他的知情權和促進融合發展可是我也聽到有很多的批評是說這些說明會根本就是只是形式所以我想問說修法後現在到底有哪一些具體的做法是用來落實跟社區的友善結合公民參與因為這非常重要"},{"start":5555.751,"end":5571.311,"text":"所以你們要怎麼幫助居民特別是長者理解這些專業術與跟他們生活的連結就像我們在解釋這些專業的時候有些時候我們有些專業人士不是你們這個領域的還不見得呢更何況是長輩那你們的標準流程是什麼"},{"start":5572.603,"end":5591.566,"text":"謝謝委員的指導那確實這次的修法做一個重大的改變是民眾的知情權我們不希望說民眾拿到我們的籌賬的許可之後他知道說他臨近有這些的案場的開發案所以他在開發之前他必須要去做說明會那做說明會之外我們在"},{"start":5592.206,"end":5610.66,"text":"我們5月27經濟部也跟各部會合作設立一個平台這個平台無論從政府端從民眾端他都會去查他家的鄰近的區域有哪些的案場那這些的案場不管是地方的租金或是相關的這些資訊都是透明的"},{"start":5611.3,"end":5626.587,"text":"那我們也積極的跟法務部的合作至於委員所提到的如何落實公民參與的機制事實上我們在綠電流發展的一個過程裡面當然提供我們的電網的韌性也很重要電網韌性裡面有一個非常"},{"start":5627.747,"end":5649.044,"text":"關乎於救災的所以我們希望說促進微電網因為有一些地方會孤島所以我們未來會再比如說是公民電廠或是小水利搭配這一些所謂的微電網的設施市長這也是我的後邊要問的就是說我之所以強調光電要跟社區結合是因為像韓國的新安郡的模式就是一個值得參考的案例"},{"start":5649.451,"end":5670.348,"text":"也曾獲得國際環境獎項的肯定他們做法是在我們的肺炎田設置光電設施並透過自治條例要求廠商要保留股份給在地的居民入股政府提供綠色的金融貸款讓居民有能力參與便進一步的提供未成年的陽光兒童津貼"},{"start":5671.141,"end":5699.589,"text":"也讓人口能回流所以反觀台灣雖然有我們的漁業環境友善的公積金跟電業法的電力開發的協助金但實際回饋社區的效果是否足夠讓居民有感我覺得事實上是值得檢視的所以請教一下次長您認為我們跟韓國制度上的主要差異是什麼台灣能不能比照韓國這種模式來推動那如果要做的話有哪些法規跟制度要配套"},{"start":5701.408,"end":5726.207,"text":"非常謝謝委員指導事實上我們台灣在設置光電的部分也有很多很好的案例不管是嘉義的鹽田或是我們台南的一些山坡地的地區那我們也透過跟社會溝通的過程裡面我們比如說像漁電共生我們也有談到當地的養殖的漁戶漁民那這個部分事實上我們台灣也發展的也蠻迅速的"},{"start":5726.747,"end":5738.83,"text":"那當然我們希望說在連結設地方回饋地方的部分我們希望多一點的加強而且這些不是僅止於所謂的公共建設的一個工作"},{"start":5741.444,"end":5761.911,"text":"這樣 這就麻煩兩週內 是不是把我剛剛問的這個提供就是協調一些組織單位來提供資料就具體說明這些協助金跟公積金的實際運用狀況是不是真的能夠結合到社區沒有問題 尊教但理最後就是目前許多我們地面型光電暗廠在停電時就沒有辦法"},{"start":5762.991,"end":5779.357,"text":"及時的去供應社區跟產業使用那沒有辦法支援緊急供電像這次風災像嘉義、益竹、台南、雪甲跟七股等地災我們的嚴重就災情嚴重的那光電廠就在社區旁邊卻看得到用不到"},{"start":5781.095,"end":5808.184,"text":"那情何以堪所以請問我們是否要求大規模的案場負責就是負擔起部分區域的緊急用電的責任是否應優先在災損地區建置我們的區域型的微型電網就像剛剛講的像阿里山現在有設那是否目前是否已經有相關的規劃為什麼我們要去談這個東西就是希望你"},{"start":5808.98,"end":5833.892,"text":"這個是不是可以更擴及不是只有一個比較像剛剛講阿里山有色那如果微型電網結合再生能源能源跟我們的儲能系統的話是不是就能夠加速推廣到養殖業的需求讓業者能夠在停電的時候維持我們的水車的運作多餘的電力就我們的儲存供我們的冷凍庫使用像在台南雪甲就有類似的成功案例"},{"start":5834.412,"end":5853.485,"text":"這是否已經是在政策上被認為要推廣的方向所以可不可以請你在這邊說一下說謝謝委員指導那這些方向都是我們目前檢討的方向那為什麼說這個光電廠在旁邊社區無電可用因為所有我們的家戶的虧欠系統我們的電力系統他可能需要因為這個光電"},{"start":5855.126,"end":5877.458,"text":"是白天有電晚上可能沒有電沒有日照的時候沒有電有一些調頻頻率的改變的部分必須要目前需要透過台電的電網來調節但是這些的暗場不管是所謂的地面型或是屋頂型的若是他有設置到儲冷或是一個調頻的設備的話他還可以容許一定的時間來溶通使用"},{"start":5878.058,"end":5902.117,"text":"比如說以屋頂型為例的話現在平均一般家戶設置的屋頂型大概是5K到10K左右那當然他可以撐一陣子那這個部分是我們未來努力的方向也感謝委員的指導 謝謝所以這部分是不是也請知事長針對大型光電暗場區域周邊的區域型的那個微型電網的建置評估在會後提供相關資料給我們"},{"start":5903.206,"end":5928.696,"text":"好謝謝遵照辦理好謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝次長來繼續我們請邱正軍委員質詢主席好我們請我們彭部長還有我們經濟部能源署李代理署長"},{"start":5932.421,"end":5943.32,"text":"邱委員早部長好還有署長好我手上有三份資料一份是經濟部給的專案報告一份是環境部的然後呢"},{"start":5945.424,"end":5972.025,"text":"一份是這個環境部提供的專案報告還有一份是環境部提供給本席的那這三個文件明明在講同一件事情但是內容卻自相矛盾版本不太一致那今天如果不是召委排審你們是不是就各說各話然後互踢皮球那現在喬出一個統一的說法我覺得是怕真相穿幫還是怕責任被看清"},{"start":5973.308,"end":5996.678,"text":"那我坦白說啦我認為環境循環署提供的資料才是最接近真實的狀況你們的專案報告都是經過層層修飾擦脂抹粉之後才送出來都是處理中已安排持續協調這些模糊語言真正的困難真正的責任歸屬全部都不見了那今天不是我們委員要求這個資料我覺得"},{"start":6000.16,"end":6006.203,"text":"我們是不是連這個什麼回收費未繳10年無法補助這件事情都不打算給外界知道"},{"start":6007.779,"end":6030.065,"text":"那我在看經濟部的報告當中在光電板摘損後由政府簽約處理負責清理但你們經濟環境部循環署回覆本席所知的資料卻說這是摘損模組回收費都還沒滿10年不符合補貼資格所以經濟部要請這個業者自行處理這個請廠商來清理嗎"},{"start":6033.263,"end":6056.634,"text":"包委員就我所知第一個是例如說他因為這個1k瓦要1000塊那他分10年那等於是一年100塊那如果4年壞了他等於是清除掉他還是要把這個10年的要先繳清然後新的還要再繳1000塊所以還是要照這樣一個制度來說明這個要不要請董事長回答"},{"start":6058.235,"end":6080.36,"text":"以目前的規定,那每K瓦太陽光電在設置的時候,它就要繳一千元的基金進來,這個到這個能源基金裡面,然後環保署依它使用的狀況,再由來申請由能源基金撥補環保署,所以它現在太陽光電設置的時候,事實上它就要繳這個回收處理的基金了。"},{"start":6080.9,"end":6098.443,"text":"對 模組回收費是專款專用嘛是那就是要拿來處理災損還是太一的光電模組這是怎麼用就是只要它損害不再使用的那就要再處理因為它有那這是我的資料是這樣子環境部今年只向你們申請了兩百萬對不對"},{"start":6100.745,"end":6116.553,"text":"這筆錢最多只能處理153噸正常淘汰的模組啊完全沒有編列任何災損處理的程度因為我們太陽光電推行到現在它經濟受領是20年20年以後會有大批的汰換所以這筆錢只是為了也就是說它只是為了要當20年期滿之後要汰換的這個費用就對了"},{"start":6125.197,"end":6141.069,"text":"正常我們說20年時間到了 壽命到了 它會有大量出現但是中間陸續它有破損的 它一樣是要處理掉也就是說它一腳把那我問你啦 那目前總共損壞14萬5千片中央高達2800公噸嘛那這2800公噸的廢光電板到底要怎麼清"},{"start":6147.654,"end":6168.86,"text":"這個業者目前我們分成兩部分目前在道路外面的目前我們先請業者就廠區以外的要清理完畢那另外他有廠區內有損害的廠區內有損害的那目前他會陸陸續續天氣好了之後他會有大型機具的進入然後還有一些電器人員要拆解因為太陽光電會發電這個誰要做業者自己要做你們誰追蹤"},{"start":6172.921,"end":6195.332,"text":"我們會追蹤你怎麼追蹤我們每一個案場他會先佔置在他自己的廠區裡面然後他會去做拆解分類之後他現在不是找不到地方放嗎他放在自己的廠區裡面不是在外面等一下再講那我再問你更具體一點那這次災損涉及的14個案場有哪一家業者是繳滿10年模組回收的"},{"start":6196.353,"end":6205.103,"text":"這個是他在申請設置的時候就要繳了對 繳滿了 他一次繳滿嗎對他一次繳滿10年目前我們有所以你這個問題就現在問題點就在這裡是"},{"start":6208.513,"end":6214.639,"text":"他繳了十年嗎 也不是嘛 他是每年在繳嘛那你認為他現在繳的錢就現在他已繳的錢能夠有足夠的能力來處理今天這種狀況嗎他還是要自己處理 他一定沒有辦法嘛你們會補嗎 不會嘛 不會補嘛所以這筆錢跟這筆錢根本就沒有關係嘛他要自己處理 對"},{"start":6231.477,"end":6259.048,"text":"那我問你啊 你有跟他講啊108年才開始繳嘛 現在才6年啊是 對不對那根本沒有任何案場繳滿10年那照你們這個制度那全台99%以上的這個光電廠都不符合這個補助清運的門檻嘛 對不對所以他們是要自行處理他要自行處理 對那我問你啊你你你 我覺得你這個這一套制度非常奇怪啊回收專款專用是要怎麼用啊"},{"start":6259.788,"end":6283.939,"text":"就是等到20年後才來用沒有就是陸續它有損壞的時候就拿這筆錢來處理它你不是10年內補那個嗎因為這是一個舖這是大家一起繳進來沒有達10年沒有辦法補助嗎那今天3年2年5年了現在6年了業者要自己出啊他要自己處理啊他不用申請就自己處理他自己要去"},{"start":6286.689,"end":6312.073,"text":"這個錢不是業者來申請是業者要負責處理然後他可以申請補助他會跟環保署申請補助環保署的因為這個錢是在再生能源發展基金裡面的所以環保署就把它處理花了多少錢來跟這個再生能源基金來申請那我們就會編給環保署部長我請問你你是氣象專家我請教你一個問題在你的印象裡台灣一年曾經會經歷幾個颱風"},{"start":6315.494,"end":6336.611,"text":"呃 一年大概三到四個三到四個嘛 對所以是年年都有高風險現實我們大家都知道那我請你問經濟部你們明知道台灣每年有這麼多颱風為什麼設計一套這個模組回收制度讓太陽光電業者分十年來繳繳不滿十年政府就不用就完全不用負責任來清運作業嗎"},{"start":6339.333,"end":6360.283,"text":"這個分十年是我們經濟部訂的你們是幫財團在幫忙在做切割嗎沒有因為當時就是說讓他能夠分期繳交光電業者可以先裝先發電先賺錢回收費都不用先繳因為我們政府跟這個光電業者不就合作無間不會正常的就是說是大家一起發財是嗎颱風這樣的損害事實上"},{"start":6363.792,"end":6376.74,"text":"所謂十年是他二十年經濟受領他要在十年收取完畢但是他每一年還是要繳出十分之一來那這十分之一可以因應他因為颱風的災損你這個當時沒有計算進去嘛今天如果這個廠商他今天沒有能力處理怎麼辦"},{"start":6383.707,"end":6406.648,"text":"倒啦 他不會 他低一點設置就要找錢進來要找誰要 錢要找誰要廠商啊他就倒了 你要找去哪裡找我們還是可以追究他的責任的如果他沒能力處理呢那這筆錢要誰出呢這是另外一件事 但是就是說這個責任還是在他的身上他要處理完畢 那我們會追究他的責任"},{"start":6407.782,"end":6431.457,"text":"我是覺得啦如果全責都丟給業者那你們設立這個模組回收這個制度還是需要調整啦因為你不知道台灣的天災什麼時候來它一年會面臨幾次這個部分呢如果是以現在的機制來算的話我擔心我們現在的業者他沒有能力處理沒有能力處理的時候到時候還是丟給政府來處理就是一個爛攤子啊對不對"},{"start":6434.737,"end":6454.078,"text":"不會,我們看現在的業者其實他這個繳的錢是可以處理他自己受災的剛剛講了,你說他們堆置,我有看到一個新聞我們嘉義縣政府還在幫忙找,積極找地方來給他們堆置他們自己哪有地方堆啊他自己要堆在自己的暗場裡面為什麼政府還要幫忙出面呢?"},{"start":6456.775,"end":6474.114,"text":"如果照你這樣講的話 那為什麼這麼多天還沒處理我們就是分成兩部分 就是廠區外的跟廠區內的那廠區外的因為要緊急處理啦所以我們也謝謝縣政府能夠幫忙找到一個適當的地方那廠區內的廠區外的話 那要算誰的廠區外還是這個業者要負責那只有一家業者嗎"},{"start":6479.574,"end":6503.123,"text":"知道 知道 我們每一片太陽能板你看這有十幾萬片 每一片都有編號如果編號 它會吹到那邊都散了啊你怎麼知道它編號幾號它是打在那個模組上的我們每一個模組 每一片模組它經過檢驗你的意思是它不會不見就對了它找得到這一片模組的主人是誰因為它那個號碼是打在它的那個太陽能板上面"},{"start":6503.783,"end":6516.312,"text":"然後根據我們辦公室向經濟部索取的資料截至7月10日丹納斯颱風造成加以5岸台南9岸共14個光電暗場的災損總裝置容量損失高達32.N瓦"},{"start":6524.938,"end":6543.687,"text":"然後廢光電模組總量約大概2800公噸那你們強調這次災損的容量是32.62N瓦那依照全國平均每千瓦的每年發電度1250度來換算每天損失大概11.2萬度電只佔今年這個每年平均的發電量6.88億度的萬分之一"},{"start":6552.671,"end":6557.062,"text":"你們把一場重大的災難硬要放進全國發電量裡去稀釋處理"},{"start":6558.342,"end":6584.968,"text":"然後用全國每日6.88度來沖淡地方一天損失11萬度這就是典型的這個政治初學拿整體平均掩蓋區域災難拿數字說話掩蓋治理的失能結果是什麼台風把光電板掃壞2800多公噸的這個破裂的板子還在現場那政府疲於奔命的在找空地清理對方而你們卻好意思說這個損失鏈"},{"start":6587.348,"end":6608.806,"text":"電量只有萬分之一我想請問 你們在講這種話看到那些冒著風雨搶修每一度電的台電員工他們作何感想看著受災戶受影響的漁民 基層公務員的眼裡面他們會覺得你們在安慰人民還是在羞辱人民的智商我們先看一下這個圖"},{"start":6610.943,"end":6622.268,"text":"這張是嘉義新溫案場的照片你們環境報告的報告裡面說這個案場災後已經清理完成但我們看到為什麼五萬片的破裂光電還在堆在現場根本沒地方放"},{"start":6624.694,"end":6652.785,"text":"為什麼?包委員這個他們我所知道掌握到昨天他們才跟業者在簽約清除業者在簽約後面的業者在簽約是發生這麼多天了嗎?他這個你們一開始就沒有一個機制沒有包委員因為他們這個齁這個都有保險啦那這個要等保險公司來查驗就像我們車子撞事故之後保險公司一定要來查驗才能夠進到後面的理賠的程序所以他們要等那個完了之後再做所以我們是基本上我們限期預計什麼時候可以清理完?"},{"start":6655.107,"end":6669.864,"text":"因為我有問了清除業者我問說如果他們簽完約之後幾天內就可以清除完畢但是我們其實這個量實在太大所以我們其實我就講這一場就好了它的5萬片模組就重達965公噸那光這一案處理費就大概1200萬左右"},{"start":6674.87,"end":6701.379,"text":"那麼我們如果業者不依法處理我們就開罰對不對我們會開罰開罰300萬我們現在是這個因為大家都是受災戶啦我們是這個這個等於是跟我們一般的災民是一樣來看待就是希望說他趕快清理我們給他一點點時間如果他沒有清理完成我們會開罰就開罰300萬嘛我們沒有那麼多大概廢清罰大概是6萬嘛先6萬開始只有6萬是6萬嗎"},{"start":6703.311,"end":6726.776,"text":"最高300萬對啊最高300萬你們會不會最輕的就是你現在講的意思是要用最輕的來處理他先開始因為基本上這個都是他要1200萬他要處理他如果拿不出錢他當然情願讓你罰啊包委員他都有保險啦他都有保險保險賠多少這個我不清楚對啊你怎麼說保險他會賠咧基本上他們現在就進到那個程序當中啦"},{"start":6727.176,"end":6749.338,"text":"那基本上這個公司我這樣講啦這個東西我還是要跟你們提醒的就是說這些都是問題那我希望說你們任何的狀況你們都要設想清楚啦不要讓業者這個鑽漏洞當然也不要讓業者搞到沒辦法處理然後讓我們這個政府部門來擦屁股好不好"},{"start":6750.518,"end":6764.226,"text":"那最後一個問題我再問一下這個再生能源發展基金那114年6月底我們再生能源發展基金的會計報表帳面餘額有36億點6371萬元我想請問這裡面有多少錢是來自你們從108年開始像光電業者"},{"start":6772.91,"end":6790.571,"text":"按每千瓦一千元的收取這個模組回收費也就是你們一直講的專款專用這一個部分是目前太陽光電這邊由這個業者繳交的大概有八億左右只有八億嗎是那為什麼我們都看不到呢你給我的資料為什麼看不到"},{"start":6791.147,"end":6808.857,"text":"我們可以特別把它分出來沒有問題它是裡面有很多不同的細項對啊 因為你們給我們的資料寫得非常粗糙所以我們沒有看到這一筆預算所以我跟你講你們有沒有每年公開揭露這個模組回收費已經累積多少"},{"start":6810.663,"end":6825.068,"text":"沒有特別對模擬動資的多少還有多少在帳上我想我們所要看到都是一個整體基金的總額數字完全看不到這筆專款到底有沒有好好被管理被使用還是說這一大筆錢就進入大水庫隨便用高興怎麼用怎麼用"},{"start":6827.209,"end":6852.86,"text":"這部分是專款專用因為目前以你們這樣每千瓦收1000元的標準理論上就是應該是累積當然啦我是講10年啦應該會有140億那當然你分10年角但如果說從108年開始到現在來說也有已經6年啦對不對6年來他應該有上百億的收入啦這個制度是從110年開始收取的"},{"start":6854.231,"end":6873.424,"text":"早期的太陽光電是沒有這個對 早期沒有後來越來越多以後才有這個所以我希望你們把這個數字把這個正確的數字然後一年回收多少錢然後花了多少錢大概我希望你們列清楚再給我們資料好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長 市長"},{"start":6879.529,"end":6889.18,"text":"去年山珠澳颱風的光電板損失產險業者賠償最高50%我有處理過,差不多最高50%接續請王一民委員執行"},{"start":6905.852,"end":6911.238,"text":"謝謝主席我們是不是有請環境部部長還有我們經濟部的這個次長部長好"},{"start":6918.223,"end":6943.182,"text":"那個我要請教部長跟次長就是這整個丹納斯風災過後這一些光電的廢棄物其中嘉義縣的興溫它其實是很大的一個受災戶請問兩位你們有前進到現場去看現場的情況嗎部長去了嗎 包委我是請我的署長去看然後我其實從受災之後每天都跟地方環保局所以你沒有到現場我沒有到現場那個經濟部呢經濟部次長有到現場嗎"},{"start":6946.184,"end":6975.436,"text":"我到現場那其實7月7號之後我們多次到嘉義跟台南你有到現場看到新聞廠的情況嗎好那我給各位看一下最新的畫面這個是昨天下午最新的畫面我到現場去看到的這個是嘉義新聞炙紅池大家可以看到這個是大量的這個光電板已經變成是大型的廢棄物次長你有去你自己有看到嗎"},{"start":6977.332,"end":7000.729,"text":"完全到現在還沒有清理 你有看到這個畫面嗎 大家看一下 第二張跟委員說明 剛剛邱正軍委員在質詢的時候他有一張照片 照片其實跟這個照片其實是不同角度的那現在的話我們因為嘉義地區我們現在還有1000多戶還沒有復電那我們需要環境清理跟讓居民的生活快速恢復安定 所以他"},{"start":7001.409,"end":7026.792,"text":"我是在問你你有沒有看過這樣的一個畫面很近的看到這些光電板被破壞然後在製紅紙上面的畫面不是空拍畫面不是空拍畫面這個我是有看到但是沒有這麼近用望遠鏡去看的這個沒有你其實近一點就可以看到不用望遠鏡來再下一張這個是我們在現場看到就在昨天下午"},{"start":7027.732,"end":7053.488,"text":"這個是大量的這個廢棄的光電板就在滯洪池上面這個是如果你要告訴我說這個對於環境完全沒有影響這樣的一個照片我想可以去問問一般民眾看到的觀感這樣亂七八糟然後破碎的光電板然後就在滯洪池上面大量堆置還沒有清理"},{"start":7054.349,"end":7069.442,"text":"那這個現在大家還在防所謂的登革熱它很多的那個凹槽 你們仔細看它上面有些浮板翻過來上面有凹槽它的那個積水 你環境部還要叫人家去清那個登革熱這一種你如果不趕快清的話 不會造成環境的影響嗎為什麼這個部長跟次長講話都那麼大聲說這個對環境完全都沒有影響 怎麼可能"},{"start":7081.071,"end":7102.378,"text":"眼睛所見這樣子的一個亂七八糟的東西就擺在那邊對環境沒有影響而且你仔細看它有一些那個整個氧化的已經非常的嚴重那個水的顏色就是變得越來越深而且它積在那個浮板上面的那些水我真的很擔心那個解決就是各方面的這一些如果造成環境的污染請問這個"},{"start":7103.638,"end":7124.385,"text":"要怎麼辦謝謝委員的指導那再後趕快在區內去做檢証這是必要的那除此之外的話跟委員但是都沒有在動我跟各位講已經超過到今天9天了不是我昨天在現場看的情況沒有任何的吊車施工單位在清這一些在滋洪池上面的"},{"start":7124.825,"end":7153.741,"text":"沒有施工作宴他順序是旁邊的一些有關於民眾生活的道路他因為有飛過去那一邊他先檢診這是第一個第二個部分的話新溫滯洪池顧名思義它的主要的效能它就是一個濕式的滯洪池它在平時的時候在這個滯洪池裡面就是會有水了它並不是一個所謂的我們一般水力設置的我不是在跟你講那些水我是說你浮板上面還積水"},{"start":7155.336,"end":7173.115,"text":"你有沒有仔細看這些土那個細的那個土上面你那個浮板上面的凹槽上面還有積水這樣那個積水我就問環境部部長這樣的積水會不會對於環境會滋生一些並沒穩會不會我們請那個部長來回答當然我們這個是我們要防治的重點對"},{"start":7174.256,"end":7199.658,"text":"對啊 但是現在大量在這邊喔還沒有清喔我們其實從這個上禮拜就一直在注意這個事情那你有要求業者嗎已經9天了耶有 我們已經要求業者要儘速處理然後我們勢必其實我們昨天本來就要開罰單了但是其實也考量到他們也是受災戶我們有限期給他們一點點時間他們也答應了所以而且他們說什麼時候要開始動手我到昨天"},{"start":7202.02,"end":7224.253,"text":"下午去看靜悄悄的都沒有在做任何事情其實第一個是說他們這幾個都是就是他必須要跟這個保險公司去勘查我覺得這是兩件事情啊對但是因為我們要求他一定要集中到一個地方妥善的當成事業廢棄物來處理甚至我們也協調是不是找一塊地能夠到一個地方去擺置你們這個速度真的是太慢了"},{"start":7226.354,"end":7229.938,"text":"因為我以昨天你看這張圖我以昨天在現場看的這個情況坦白講我蠻擔心的就是這當中每一個浮板上面都是凹槽都是積水然後看起來這個對環境都會產生下一波的這個危害我們夏天還在防止登革熱"},{"start":7244.574,"end":7263.616,"text":"那這個東西如果大量的這個已經被滋生出來怎麼辦你們環境部要守護環境的安全嗎如果這個我們會再請環管署再看我們是不是要如果是登革熱的話我們勢必會再去開罰再做處理你們自己的人那署長有到現場你有看到這個凹槽積水嗎你覺得這個不嚴重嗎"},{"start":7265.157,"end":7281.527,"text":"我有到現場委員照的地方是那個鐵橋那個地方然後你前一張照片是在哪一個建築那個地方我的鞋子還有很多泥巴我也是有去看過那這個確實我們會擔心所以有要求業者要競訴清楚那如果太久沒有清楚的話我們的競訴是什麼時候"},{"start":7292.313,"end":7318.906,"text":"一個合理的時間嘛 他們現在是跟廠商有簽約啦今天過了已經10天了所以你要求他什麼時候開始清啊我所知道他們跟清除處理回收業者已經有簽訂合約那我們有去實際上了解回收業者要多久可以完成他們說大概清很快 大概幾天就可以完成了這個禮拜可以嗎這個要看他們最後簽約"},{"start":7320.367,"end":7341.273,"text":"報告委員 這一個依照各案場不同的人不同的要求這個案場確實比較大但是開始清的時間他會先把這個容易造成登革熱這個部分先清除那整個清除完畢我們是希望他在這個最大場是在兩個禮拜之內清完小場一個禮拜之內把他清完 以上"},{"start":7341.513,"end":7355.265,"text":"你這一個趕快清吧我真的覺得這一個可能會造成下一波的爆發這個疾病的傳染可能會從這邊開始那現場看起來真的你還是比較早看我是昨天看我覺得那現場狀況已經是不好了你昨天也有去看"},{"start":7356.277,"end":7380.286,"text":"那你應該更擔心啊對啊這個狀況我覺得是不OK的所以部長你要拿出魄力要求業者即刻趕快去清除不要造成下一波的這個感染那另外一個我要問的就是說這次大家看到無論是這個滯洪池上面設置的或者是海上設置的都經不起這次的風災那個受損的情況其實是大的"},{"start":7380.906,"end":7404.066,"text":"那為什麼之前不需要經過好好的評估呢就你們現行的這個所有的環評措施裡面滯洪池上面的不在你的環評啊對不對海上的也不是啊海上的這個是試驗的性質他剛才是試驗他也沒有你們的角色啊對不對試驗過程你們沒有加入因為他還沒有接電所以其實目前這個是一個試驗以後我們可以考慮"},{"start":7404.887,"end":7409.471,"text":"因為你看它一散連澎湖都飄過去了這個跟你環境部當然有關係啊我們贊成可以去發展我們的綠電但是你發展綠電的過程你一定要跟你的環境永續它其實是要平衡的才有可能嘛"},{"start":7421.522,"end":7429.045,"text":"如果你是不顧一切的就是大量的去開發大量的去種電然後一個風災就讓他現行就讓他感受到說如果你前面沒有適度去管制跟踩煞車把後面的他夠不夠牢固他對環境會產生什麼樣的迫害就是做一個適度的管制的話那後面你就看到這一次的情況啊嘉義縣新聞的這一個整個就讓大家看到他的整個受損的"},{"start":7447.651,"end":7466.42,"text":"大概是四成的面積耶五萬片那個量體其實也是非常的大那那個整個都會變成是我們環境的負擔而且我擔心你這個可以去化嗎就是你這麼大量的光電板你的去化的模式是什麼像我看那些浮板大概都是塑膠啊那你塑膠怎麼處理那麼大的量體"},{"start":7468.96,"end":7496.713,"text":"塑膠其實它有它的回收的體質沒有問題然後我們光電板目前可以全回收大概92%左右沒有問題然後它那些塑膠其實下面都附滿了藻類你如果近看的話它不是乾淨的塑膠它的那個圖片你近看那個署長有去看嗎你看到的它的那個浮板本身我不知道它吸附了什麼東西它不是一個乾淨的浮板所以我覺得它的那個回收恐怕也沒有那麼容易"},{"start":7497.073,"end":7519.446,"text":"它怎麼樣去去除去除掉之後再回收所以這個我覺得就是你環境部在我們整個經濟開發過程當中我們為什麼要說環境部就是我們經濟發展跟環境永續它必須是並存的嘛不能只是有一個就是著重經濟發展就是往前衝嘛才需要環境部才需要你們升格啊所以這件事情我覺得"},{"start":7520.366,"end":7539.268,"text":"這個部長希望你可以好好的去把關包括後續的這一些整個處理我剛剛講新聞這一個我很擔心他爆發下一次是疾病傳染的問題因為他那個凹槽積水看起來已經好幾天這看起來是不妙的你們要趕快處理第二個是未來的你的整個環評"},{"start":7540.936,"end":7569.55,"text":"看起來你現在的環評還是有所不足你這個部分應該要把它納入就是你的環評的機制裡面加入環境部的把關這個可以做嗎可以我們這個部分因為這個部分有涉及到目的世界組管機關聯約署的權責還有我們那我們現在我們1月的時候已經加演了齁那但是當然我們知道社會各種各界希望能夠更演但這個部分的我們也會再進行待討論那甚至加入公民的參與在裡面"},{"start":7570.45,"end":7577.335,"text":"好我覺得這次的這個整個風災過後我們不希望對於環境造成這麼大的一個傷害"},{"start":7578.325,"end":7603.991,"text":"那新溫的這個真的趕快去處理如果再變成是下一波這個疾病傳染的源頭我覺得這個對於災民真的情何以堪不能有再第二次好不好不過我們報告因為這是第一次颱風在嘉義登陸所以那個附近布袋的這個極端值是真的是極端值所以你們要加緊就是說有一些你們該善後的就加緊該清除的你覺得要加緊都已經10天了好不好謝謝"},{"start":7605.711,"end":7629.118,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝王委員 謝謝部長 次長那 接續我們請廖偉強委員質詢那涂謙其委員質詢完後 我們休息五分鐘謝謝主席 有請彭部長"},{"start":7634.442,"end":7659.732,"text":"好 彭部長好前天在高雄三原有一個超級電池廠的大火那不僅影響了空氣品質甚至高雄市政府的環保局也發布了細胞簡訊告知附近的民眾有關於離電池工廠的爆炸而且證實呢有毒的這個氫氟酸也就是我們俗稱的化骨水正在外洩中"},{"start":7660.692,"end":7674.232,"text":"那當然今天大家討論的是光電腦但是我想前面很多人講可是這也是一個重要的時事的問題如果民眾接觸到這些化骨髓它會穿透組織侵蝕肌肉骨骼"},{"start":7675.092,"end":7701.137,"text":"對皮膚和呼吸道造人刺激甚至之前也有新聞因為有人接觸到這而過世所以這部分請問部長知不知道這件事知道 我們化學署就有派大概8位同仁在現場24小時監控那這個氫氟酸呢這個基本上在場內有微量的氫氟酸但是在整個高雄市區它的下風處並沒有量到氫氟酸的數值好 很好 謝謝部長但是我接下來就要追問了"},{"start":7705.019,"end":7724.493,"text":"我接下來就要追問喔 因為其實針對大火發生的時候我也看了一下環境部的空氣品質監測那你們卻顯示一切正常那甚至我也同時抓取了當天吹西南風的方向也就是小港東北方的鳳山側站也是一切正常喔"},{"start":7725.205,"end":7751.366,"text":"所以想要請教一下部長當天的這些策戰運行是一切正常的嗎因為這個是一個叫做就是一個煙流它不見得會經過它可能是往上擴散不見得會經過我們地面的一個策戰所以有的會高一點點但是有的沒有出現基本上我所有的這個策戰都有去看過他們數值完全都是正常所以這讓我們很質疑說這個策戰的數據的"},{"start":7755.129,"end":7776.059,"text":"真實性,因為還記得我們之前就有質詢過很多的策戰你們是手動可以調整的而且這個事情不只是這邊的問題這也會讓我們質疑全台灣的空氣品質的策戰是不是有問題所以這部分想要請部長是不是可以去回去檢討一下或是去看一下到底策戰有沒有出的狀況"},{"start":7777.119,"end":7804.219,"text":"因為這是一件很奇怪的事情當下發生了這個大火其實不只是測站的問題你知道這個大火嚴重到當天其實有航班因此是延誤了是有延誤的情況所以你說這樣子沒有導致附近的空氣品質受到影響嗎大火沒有導致這個附近空氣品質受到影響嗎所以還讓我們這些測站測出來的這些標準居然是完全是合標準的那部長你不覺得這應該是有問題的嗎"},{"start":7805.8,"end":7816.588,"text":"因為我說它是一個plume這樣就像說有人抽煙那個煙就這樣潑潑潑可是旁邊旁邊的人不見得在它的上風處不見得不知道那事實上就是說已經發生了這個事但是你空氣品質的測站就是沒有沒有測到沒有落在它的這個所以你的意思是說只要沒有沒有被空氣品質測沒有被這個測"},{"start":7826.356,"end":7842.672,"text":"測儀測到說有出現空氣品質我們都不算在空污的環境裡不是不是這個因為這個已經開罰了對嘛所以部長我的意思是說顯然客觀事實就是沒有測到那這個在平均上面這個是不是應該要去檢討的一件事情報告委員這個其實蠻難檢討因為我們的密度齁這個再密"},{"start":7846.756,"end":7865.507,"text":"除非是說我們可能100公尺設一個這個東西因為這個煙流可能就幾十公尺這樣在擴散所以我們除非要花很多的資金然後要設100公尺但是這個代表意義可能不是為了這一次的這個一次的事件來做處理不過因為這個事件處理我們有化學署有現場有監證部長我跟你說因為空氣"},{"start":7866.187,"end":7885.536,"text":"空氣車站的這個數據喔從這事件可以讓我們開始質疑或是覺得說這空氣車站是否值得信任所以我剛才會講到不是說針對這個事件那如果你這樣講的話我舉例以台中來講如果中火附近的我們是不是也會讓百姓開始質疑說那這樣子你的車站到底是不是有公信力的"},{"start":7886.196,"end":7904.995,"text":"這是我這個小節的第一件事所以我希望部長是不是可以去查一下雖然你說這個是一個什麼往上的現象並沒有碰到這些空瓶儀器可是事實上就是沒有讓在地的居民放心安心嘛那如果你說在地的居民上網去看我去查一下這個車站結果都沒事那我就出門了"},{"start":7905.916,"end":7916.124,"text":"是這樣嗎這樣子對於在地的居民是不是應該部長可以去思考一下或檢討一下那發生這個事應該要怎麼樣通知因為這就會也接下來問到我下一個問題喔這剛剛第一個小節就是這部分要請部長去確認一下那第二個小節就是說"},{"start":7924.668,"end":7950.302,"text":"是不是要進一步的檢討這個高風險化學工廠周邊的這個監測的策略要提高這個敏感區域的反應能力因為把這些事件把此次的事件當為一個檢討的案例來討論看是不是要提出我們是不是請部長部內提出一個改善的方向可以給本席這邊來了解因為現在會開始有這樣子高風險的工廠的情況"},{"start":7954.974,"end":7974.11,"text":"跟委員報告其實對於這種高風險的我們分級之後啊除了平常的跨部的稽查之外對於我們平常的這個我們會去分級分級那在不同的等級裡面我們會去要求這個應變計畫還有我們會再救他的因為他還沒產生災害不過我們都會應變的這邊都會把它做下來這樣子"},{"start":7980.115,"end":7992.909,"text":"這個如果產生災害就蠻危險的你剛剛這個像這個化骨水如果碰到的話任何一個人我想這都是很所以你剛剛講的還是有點太太好像是不是應該還要再去檢討精進說針對這個部分你沒有什麼你所謂的分級那像這個工廠是第幾級"},{"start":7997.694,"end":8010.509,"text":"這個工廠因為它其實它運作毒化物質的兩種它這次它剛剛委員所提到的這個青佛酸主要是它的電解液裡面的一個叫做6伏磷酸鋰所以我們針對這個"},{"start":8014.953,"end":8031.171,"text":"這種儲能電池的工廠我們本來就會SOP裡面啦就如果有災害發生我們就會去測氰酵酸那因為你這個是等於是災害發生才後續啦那我想要講的是你有沒有預防譬如說預防的機制譬如說在這種高風險的工廠附近你們要不要去我舉例好了"},{"start":8031.551,"end":8057.864,"text":"是不是要去研議說要不要用一個所謂專屬事故的這個監測點或者是比較微型感測的網路就是說針對這樣子是不是可以更主動再附近比如說已經是很高假設對你們來講是高風險的這個工廠的話你們有沒有更積極的作為這是不是應該要去思考因為如果真的一旦發生了災害又不是說發生了災害我再請毒化署去現場就好了是這我們會整體再來我們平常就有一個機制這我們會再來檢討"},{"start":8060.265,"end":8074.101,"text":"另外就是這次的大火造成這個有毒物質的擴散那高雄市的環保局有在網站上面發布警告但是相較於環境部跟這個毒化署的網頁上是沒有任何的說明"},{"start":8075.202,"end":8096.696,"text":"這是不是也代表說這個兩個同時都是政府機關的相關網頁那你覺得民眾看了這兩個網頁之後要相信誰換個角度來說環境部對於這個火災以及這個有毒物的外洩事件是不是慢了半拍還是根本毫無反應所以你剛剛所謂反應說你們有派毒化署的這個小隊去可是你們在整個訊息的揭露上是完全沒有揭露到的"},{"start":8097.276,"end":8112.814,"text":"那包含這個部分想要另外問一下高雄的環保局是不是應該要第一時間就有沒有通報我們的毒化署然後再來就是說如果有通報那是什麼時間通報那毒化署是多少的時間內去做反應的"},{"start":8114.955,"end":8133.921,"text":"這個全台灣各個縣市那一套發生火災擴散那個資料全部都是環境部提供給各個地方環保局因為他們是第一線跟消防局有這個協同的一個作業所以那個資料因為是以地方為主但是後面的後勤所有的資料整個系統都是環境部在提供的所以就以他們的為準"},{"start":8135.001,"end":8158.201,"text":"所以你的意思是說就是環境部網站上不需要有任何的相關的消息嗎因為在地方上的就好跟委員報告這個按照我們的SOP的流程的話當天早上7點15分環保局有通報我們請求我們支援我們大概在一個小時內就到現場那通常我們這種就是會跟當地的指揮官報到之後那麼討論完之後依照去偵檢數據也都會給"},{"start":8161.104,"end":8179.575,"text":"指揮官所以當天我們為什麼一開始有測到這個青柏酸的微量的話我們也是跟指揮官報告他們就發告警細胞通知民眾然後持續監測一直到傍晚周介就沒有HF就是青柏酸這部分所以整個的體系就是由當地的指揮官來發布這個相關的訊息"},{"start":8183.208,"end":8196.563,"text":"但是這個就是也要請環境部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們基本上他們只發布了說有這件事情請大家在家裡不要出去結果最後結束了或怎麼處理的其實民眾也是一無所知啊"},{"start":8199.524,"end":8218.329,"text":"其實當天早上我們到之後一直到測到周介沒問題我們才檢討完由當地環保局消防局跟業者去處理那這部分我們會在後面的一些會議的時候我們會提出來對啊因為他們收到之後他們就想說請民眾待在家裡就傻傻的待在家裡也不知道這件事情什麼時候解決了"},{"start":8219.709,"end":8244.493,"text":"對這是一個就是讓人覺得說是不是兩邊的溝通是不夠同步讓對民眾的資訊的交代也不夠負責因為結束了他就太不曉得這部分我們會再跟他們討論因為其實是災害發生之後這到底什麼時候結束其實還沒辦法很快的去去把他說什麼時候預定結束但是如果一旦是應變到某個程度我們會建議對你們這個就是沒有所以接下來"},{"start":8244.973,"end":8263.252,"text":"這個部分要請你們去檢討跟地方政府如果發生相同的事情究竟應該怎麼樣告訴地方的居民你處理到什麼程度他們可以做什麼事不然他一直關在家裡難道就像是COVID-19的期間嗎你必須在家裡隔離這樣最後其實不分藍綠的這個地方的不管是立委或議員其實都認為這個這起火警"},{"start":8266.515,"end":8280.289,"text":"廠方當然跟主管機關都責無旁貸所以未來都應該要加強演練和設備檢查而且另外希望每小時公告這個空氣的監測然後中央地方共同制定安全的流程剛剛其實我們都有討論到這是應該都要精進的事情"},{"start":8283.092,"end":8298.892,"text":"那甚至有高雄的在地的立委在小港召開協調會要了經濟部、高雄市政府、廠商代表、里長跟地方人士檢查火災的原因、責任的歸屬跟後續改善的方式但是我們發現環境部完全沒有在裡面"},{"start":8299.946,"end":8316.098,"text":"有有嗎我們看到你當時有在嗎我們毒化災小組就是像這種事故所有都會都會參加因為那一場會議你們也在裡面因為我們看到那個會議的那個出席的裡面並沒有我們相關的單位好有在裡面那OK所以因為這個事情"},{"start":8317.739,"end":8338.456,"text":"必須要讓在地方這樣子的工廠已經變成在地上的一個超級風險所以我們剛剛所有的事件請大家把這一次的案件成為一個檢討的一個事件希望不只是高雄未來還有很多的地方都有這樣子超級風險的工廠我們不希望有任何的這個風險和災害或是事故發生"},{"start":8339.196,"end":8360.17,"text":"尤其是現在不管是地震啊或者是火災啊都很有機會的發生我們覺得這個對於在地地方上的居民是非常的有危害和有風險好那再請部長這邊去檢討好不好謝謝謝謝六委員謝謝部長署長那接下來我們請涂前局委員質詢"},{"start":8371.345,"end":8373.726,"text":"好謝謝主席 那請我們彭部長彭部長那個太陽光電也是我們能源轉型的重要工具那可是我們也要知道綠能其實它也不是百分之百的環保尤其這太陽能板據我們了解它從製造到設置還有最後它的退役"},{"start":8397.188,"end":8423.772,"text":"其實它每一個階段都有淺藏的環境的風險我們看一下我們這個影片它在製造階段的時候有高耗能也產生溫室氣體還有涉及我們重金屬跟化學的製程那它設置的過程當然也涉及我們農地、埤塘以及海岸還有生態漆地甚至我們也會有可能破壞碳灰的功能"},{"start":8424.312,"end":8444.14,"text":"那在運轉的階段影響土地跟水文系統那最後退場的時候如果沒有良好的廢棄物管理或者回收計畫那這個模組就是我們新世代的有害廢棄物這個部長你應該同意吧我是同意但是所有的能源"},{"start":8445.801,"end":8468.255,"text":"除非我們不要能源所有的能源也都有類似一模一樣可以分門別類的一個問題所以我們最後我們是環境部是關注最後一個廢棄物管理跟回收計畫就是我們的責任對所以我們針對這個畢竟因為剛剛有講那這個廢棄物你們一直說它是無毒對不對那可是無毒來講重點"},{"start":8469.156,"end":8483.473,"text":"無毒的垃圾也是垃圾而且它裡面也是含有一些重金屬那如果沒有妥善的拆解處理它長期的堆置一定也會影響我們土壤跟地下水的問題吧是 一定會 對"},{"start":8485.71,"end":8513.51,"text":"所以我们针对废弃太阳能模组它也是属于我们废青法的一部分针对这一部分我们也要有合格清除处理的厂商才能够回收我刚有听部长的报告你说目前有几家四家后续也有一些人想要投入的目前我们的量能大概一个月大概4000多吨处理4000多吨"},{"start":8514.71,"end":8536.913,"text":"那根據我們循環署預估我們在2035年的時候大概會產生5萬噸的太陽能模板那如果以我們目前的量能大概算起來大概只能處理差不多10%我們是那個是一個月我們如果一年的話大概就要將近5萬噸啦所以目前的量是應該是夠啦"},{"start":8538.314,"end":8562.83,"text":"但是因為它是一個累積型的所以我們目前也在我們也希望因為我們有去特別了解這個業者他大概生態是什麼然後我們也希望他可以做得更好那我們知道業者大概92%都可以回收啦所以基本上我們希望他的比例可以拉高然後那個產業可以活得更健全一點所以現在重點問題就是我們現在即使能夠處理現在的量能"},{"start":8563.49,"end":8581.245,"text":"大概就已經有可能就沒有辦法負荷那像這次風災整個回收量是暴增啊那我們這樣子暴增那我們針對這一部分我們也沒有辦法短期去處理那這環境污染的部分是由環境部跟地方政府在負擔嗎"},{"start":8582.246,"end":8608.994,"text":"對 包委員這個有兩個部分一個是說它這個壞掉的要趕快能夠堆置在一個地方例如說在這個皮糖能夠清除掉然後趕快跟這個回收的業者處理的業者能夠簽約能夠運到回收的業者做全循環的處理所以有兩個階段那第一個階段呢我所知道是說他們正在處理這個事情因為他們必須因為這個都是資產所以他們必須跟保險公司能夠來確認能夠得到理賠"},{"start":8611.515,"end":8640.355,"text":"那他另外一個人要跟那個簽約那這個簽約我所知道都在進行當中那簽完約之後大概幾天之內就可以送到那個回收業者那他就可以去做去化的一個工作那去化的工作呢因為我們現在量能我們過去的量能沒有那麼大所以等於是說我們現在他們預估說是24小時一直不斷的加班希望一個半月可以去化掉等於是說他把這個運到這個回收業者處理業者的話大概花一個半月才可以處理掉"},{"start":8640.575,"end":8655.712,"text":"所以我們剛剛講的意思是說我們現在其實處理量能就不夠所以我們這對於這個暴增的所以部長意思說就是請業者用加班的方式他們表示說他們也願意因為這個是國難所以他們也願意很積極的配合來處理"},{"start":8656.633,"end":8672.775,"text":"因為我們擔心這一部分這個廢棄物堆置久了畢竟對我們整個環境生態一定有重大的影響那我們所以環境部就是限期他一個半月內完成還是他只能一個半月內就是說我們大型的像這個大型的大概是"},{"start":8673.655,"end":8699.569,"text":"兩個禮拜希望兩個禮拜一定要給我清除完整不然我們就要廢清法開罰然後如果小型的比較小量的一個禮拜我們其實我們的這個跟地方環保局都有協調說希望你們盡快可以去處理完所以所有訂定時間如果沒有辦法處理會有罰則嗎會有罰則例如說六萬到三百萬好那希望這個部分我們環境部來盡速處理以免造成我們環境生態的影響那"},{"start":8702.694,"end":8705.496,"text":"我們再請一下我們能源署的李署長委員好那個署長我請問一下還有部長 那我們這一次這個屏東福泰市的光電暗產它這個總共的費用總共經費是多少錢"},{"start":8733.38,"end":8753.597,"text":"我們是補助1億多嘛是不是屏東是不是對屏東的案場它總共經費是3億那政府補助1.3億總共3億政府補助1.3億全部是3億全部是3億是那可是好像說這個還沒有商轉嘛對不對還沒有它是一個實驗計畫"},{"start":8755.979,"end":8781.436,"text":"那他必須要在他實驗完成前他到期日是115年的6月30那他必須要完成他整個試驗計畫那中間他會分階段的去做試驗那如果試驗失敗那這次看起來他的試驗是沒有成功那他還要再繼續去改善然後做試驗那最終的期限是到明年的6月30他必須要完成他原來計畫書裡面受補助的項目"},{"start":8787.221,"end":8802.219,"text":"所以我們現在意思是說因為這個風災它已經變成海廢垃圾那重點所以萬一它這個實驗沒有成功的話呢我們就會扣回它的補助款扣回它的補助款所以我們現在擔心說你看這個"},{"start":8803.18,"end":8829.336,"text":"事情爆發之後這個塑膠浮具堆滿沙灘而且說這個模具也在海岸邊那這個用人民的納稅人錢來做這個實驗然後災後我們感覺說這個整個好像責任不明監管也缺失環境損害的部分好像也沒有明確到底是環境部還是經濟部的責任還是廠商的責任好像沒有很明確"},{"start":8832.351,"end":8853.519,"text":"這個責任是明確的這是廠商他要依他的責任去清理那如果他沒有完成清理的話那在政府機關就會去開罰去處罰他那所以清理的責任是他那目前他也清理完畢但是有少部分因為卡在消波塊他要拿起來比較困難那非常少數那目前基本上他已經清理完畢了"},{"start":8853.979,"end":8872.289,"text":"那這清理的費用是廠商全額支付是是那我們補助的部分有沒有包含這個裡面的清理費用還是只有實驗當然不包含只有實驗的費用只有他做實驗的費用那我們目前光電設施針對抗風的能力有統一的標準嗎"},{"start":8873.469,"end":8894.623,"text":"目前來講光電設施它是比照一般建築物的標準去設定它的這個抗風的能力也就是說它抗風的能力要跟我們建管法規定建築的那個能力強度是一樣的而且它要經過技師的簽證才能夠來設置所以它都有經過我們結構的安全審查"},{"start":8895.403,"end":8913.758,"text":"有 他當時都要經過這樣的一個審查然後縣政府同意之後才能放在那個海面上所以那時候好像講說應該可以到16到18級他這一個案的設計我可能要確認一下我的印象中好像是14級風然後他是浪高7米以上"},{"start":8915.356,"end":8940.371,"text":"因為那時候好像我們看報導好像說預計應該到16到18級風可是這次根本就沒打到就摧毀掉了沒有因為他目前是分階段在試驗那他會逐步逐步的試驗他現在是福台在那邊那未來他可能會進一步除了福台還有太陽能板當然要看他能不能試驗到那個階段不過目前看起來他的試驗是沒有成功"},{"start":8941.403,"end":8967.305,"text":"所以我們以後政府的補助應該是不是要把這個風險控管也要綁在一起不然以後後續一些問題全部都是由廠商來處理萬一廠商沒辦法處理呢不會 因為我們在他核准的時候他就要繳我們補助是補助他1.35億他要繳同額的旅月保證金1.35億在政府這邊那所以我們到時候是完全扣得到錢的"},{"start":8968.514,"end":8992.105,"text":"所以萬一他沒辦法做那還是有鋁月寶真經在那邊可以做對 銅鵝的鋁月寶真經所以我們經過這一次的事件我覺得環境部應該針對這個應該要建立明確的退場跟污染處理的機制是不是應該要有明確的退場跟環境污染處理的機制然後讓地方政府來配合"},{"start":8992.865,"end":9014.314,"text":"基本上光電的回收機制是很清楚的但是這個是天災啦那目前其實整個太陽能板整個淘汰換的處理機制是明確的那我們未來的廢新法修正之後我們環境部應該會承擔更多的責任所以我們會參著委員的意見所以未來我們當然是希望能夠更完整的方式去走那不過這次是天災這圖案這個量"},{"start":9016.195,"end":9036.06,"text":"那因為以前沒有從嘉義登陸的颱風而且那麼的大所以這次是一個例外但是我們會再從這次來裡面來說的話重新再來檢討一次對我們建議說這個既然是綠能我們應該盡量要做到真正的環保應該很多部分我們跨部會應該要來配合不然這個"},{"start":9036.88,"end":9058.36,"text":"你號稱綠能可是我覺得說你像一些它的太陽光電這些模組其實對我們很多民眾來講也是一個隱憂啊你這將來的處理的問題還有這個廢棄物整體堆置的問題不要說它好像好像號稱綠能事實上真的做下來並沒有達到這個很高綠能的標準啊"},{"start":9060.404,"end":9077.011,"text":"其實任何的能源都有它的問題這次是凸顯了光電碼的問題那我們會從這次的裡面會再從這個機制是不是能夠更快來去化來解決這個我們的確要討論不過這次是因為這個量突然之間冒出了14萬噸14萬片所以這個是我們要特別再來檢討的"},{"start":9080.512,"end":9090.68,"text":"所以我說這部分也剛好凸顯這問題所以希望環境部跟經濟部針對還有廠商這些機制應該要訂定一個完善的配套OK 好 謝謝韋我們會再來檢討好 謝謝部長謝謝謝謝圖惠 謝謝部長 次長休息五分鐘"},{"start":9556.601,"end":9558.263,"text":"好 我們繼續 繼續開會我們請陳慶威委員質詢謝謝趙偉 趙偉你先坐啦你先坐"},{"start":9571.604,"end":9587.734,"text":"因為剛剛有感而發聽到昭緯在為台電的員工覺得抱屈也聽了很多委員質詢的內容那本席在這邊其實也為台電的員工致敬覺得他們不眠不休的搶救真的是非常的辛苦"},{"start":9588.815,"end":9605.391,"text":"可是我們也要強調這麼多人問下來就是錯誤的能源政策造成我們現在的電力系統這樣子的脆弱我希望經濟部可以反省郭部長今天沒有來可是郭部長之前老員工提醒他錯誤的能源政策的時候"},{"start":9606.072,"end":9629.538,"text":"他在備詢的時候是說 不爽就不要做啊可以離職啊 他是這樣子講的那這次 朝委也很知道啊你的福台都已經飄到澎湖去了你的福台的殘骸都已經卡在消波塊了經濟部特別做圖卡說人民不要造謠喔 不要造謠上面有光電板喔造謠的人我們要報警喔"},{"start":9630.758,"end":9643.931,"text":"這相比起來跟你今天說你要趕到南部去看基層的台電的同仁 我覺得情何以堪 你做出來的樣子跟你今天在這邊說你沒有辦法來答詢的這個"},{"start":9646.55,"end":9667.298,"text":"理由我覺得不堪一擊啦那這邊剛看了這麼多委員質詢的圖片我們發現台南是整排的電線桿倒塌屋頂先飛的幾千戶我現在講的是人命剛剛一位很辛苦的台電人員OKA現在放葉克摩"},{"start":9667.958,"end":9676.818,"text":"但是我們因為一整個禮拜活在黑暗中有八十幾歲的阿嬤點蠟燭可是不幸往生 因為"},{"start":9678.68,"end":9704.739,"text":"這個起火那另外一位里長是因為呼吸器斷電他們已經在黑暗中這樣子過這不是我們應該要有的經濟部應該要全面的檢討你們的能源政策然而我們在問這些問題的時候事發當時有縣長在北歐考察執政黨委員在大罷免大遶境媒體對於台南的訊息通通都不報"},{"start":9705.58,"end":9723.054,"text":"然後我們總統去勘栽說什麼 說這不是國軍的慷慨說我們要有社會韌性說這個屋頂你要自己擺起來啊那民眾說沒水 沒網路 沒電手機沒有訊號要怎麼生活他說郭國文委員的手機有訊號啊"},{"start":9724.375,"end":9729.978,"text":"我們台灣人到底是多麼的悲哀才會用這樣子破爛的能源政策來賠命啊已經兩位老人家這是我剛剛聽到這麼多委員質詢最感慨的事情那我現在想先請次長"},{"start":9746.445,"end":9765.221,"text":"已經說了福台你好福台現在散落的到處都是你自己也沒辦法預估什麼時候才可以把所有的殘骸全部撈回來黃國昌委員陳昭芝委員都說這個就是人民的納稅錢所補助的計畫去做的"},{"start":9766.414,"end":9772.782,"text":"那你說你還要先問廠商才可以給我們這個計劃書你這個計劃書早就已經寫好了現在並不是讓你們在勘栽很忙碌的時間還要生出什麼報告給我們這個計劃書早就有了我相信張委很想看吧"},{"start":9784.434,"end":9796.646,"text":"因為交委現在每天都到屏東的海岸去看你那些福台到底收完了沒他預測一個月都收不完那我們是不是還要再排一次專報或者是質詢請問我們想問我們這麼基本的計畫書這個結構性的錯誤中間是不是有什麼弊案然後人民納稅錢補助的這個計畫"},{"start":9808.499,"end":9822.018,"text":"請問你這個計畫書你覺得你可以在多久的期限之內問到廠商的許可然後可以給委員們謝謝委員首先代表台電的員工感謝委員對台電員工的關懷"},{"start":9823.548,"end":9844.497,"text":"這第一點 第二點有關於屏東這個案場我們的資料第一個所有的浮到這個海岸邊的這個部分要清理那我們當然剛剛也有聽到海委會到海下裡面去看有沒有光電板在此跟委員跟大家說明這一次戴納斯颱風之前"},{"start":9846.518,"end":9874.414,"text":"這個光電板都已經移除了我們現在是看到湖台的部分那這湖台的部分的話當然即刻的清理除此之外的話委員所關心的資料的部分因為這裡面不但有涉及到公共利益也涉及到個人資料的保護所以我們需要依照法規的這個執行來處理那我們已經我們只有大概是10天之內我們要求廠商給我們一個回覆"},{"start":9875.134,"end":9903.911,"text":"那第一個問題你已經答覆了就是10天之內你可以獲得廠商的回覆決定要不要奪我們計劃書所以有可能我們沒有計劃書 對嗎它涉及到所謂的它個資的部分公司的營業的部分所以10天我們就知道有或沒有那第二個問題你剛剛提到的因為你們今天的報告都有寫你們會盡速的把這些浮台全部打撈回來然後這個消波塊也會處理乾淨請問這個期限是多久因為昭緯也很想知道"},{"start":9905.233,"end":9933.218,"text":"事實上我們在7月11號之前已經把大部分的都清理了但是因為隨著這個海浪風浪的這個影響他這些所謂的福台HDPE包括有一些的細部的設施可能還有漂到其他海岸的這個地方我們會請能源署教學廠商確實一一的逐一的詢點所以兩個問題都沒有答案沒有現在都已經清了差不多了"},{"start":9933.732,"end":9943.148,"text":"但多久以內請完你還不知道啦這個屏東縣政府已經有給他限期了會繼續裁罰 次長您請回座接下來我們請環境部部長"},{"start":9948.028,"end":9977.228,"text":"好部長有一個年輕人會玩的叫做狼人殺就是找出到底是誰在說謊這個是風災之後經濟部說受損的光電板一直在清潤無毒不會造成污染但同一天或是前後兩天您說光電模組含有金屬與化學物質若沒有妥善清除處理恐流入土壤和水體引發長期的污染一律"},{"start":9979.169,"end":10003.105,"text":"包委員這個我們有跟他那位記者表示不一樣的意見因為我們有一個新聞稿說得很清楚我們沒有這樣說是隔天的新聞稿嗎他加了一些他自己的看法進去那當然啦任何的這個儀器或是電器都有金屬在裡面例如說我們的手機所以其實泡到水長久以來對環境都是不好的所以其實您覺得經濟部的這張圖卡"},{"start":10005.748,"end":10028.394,"text":"沒有寫得夠清楚 對嗎左邊是左邊 我說的是右邊你看到右邊那張圖因為你剛剛有講啊 你說長期浸泡在水裡或是土壤裡還是會有其影響就是任何的東西 反走過不一定有痕跡嘛所以它絕對不是無毒嘛 對不對它不是無毒基本上它不是有害的廢棄物啦那至於有沒有毒 是一個風險跟濃度的關係"},{"start":10030.922,"end":10059.01,"text":"所以它不是無毒目前我們量到現在沒有毒但是如果放了很久那個例如說紅或是銀如果放很久很久可能幾年那當然一定會慢慢的影響到水質了解沒關係等一下我們來討論再來你隔天又有另外一個說法說太陽能模組主要是鋁礦玻璃EVA模發電元件並未被列為有害廢棄物這個你剛剛也講了還提醒外界勿混淆視聽"},{"start":10060.69,"end":10074.846,"text":"這個我前面已經講得很清楚了已經有人因此而喪命可是經濟部在發圖卡叫大家不要造謠然後你叫大家不要混淆視聽可是委員是什麼喪命因為太陽光電板喪命嗎"},{"start":10075.407,"end":10098.363,"text":"不是不是不是我的意思是說我們現在當務之急是要去找這些光電板引起的污染還有這些光電板有沒有碎裂找不到序號的有沒有根本回收不回來的這才是我們的當務之急不是嗎是是好那這些大型的光電板當然現在還有很多網路上有非常多鄉民啊他們有看到"},{"start":10099.82,"end":10119.689,"text":"飛到車子裡的啦卡到土裡的啊掉到池塘水裡的還有在樹上他們還說可以行光合作用的這些光電板啊都已經碎裂的一塌糊塗到處都是那每一片有所謂的身分證跟序號嘛齁我們今天有看到經濟部說可能"},{"start":10121.269,"end":10129.995,"text":"這個損失是0.4%0.4%請問兩個部門有辦法詳列出這0.4%裡面最後找不到的碎裂的你們找得回來嗎因為我們只知道你是回推0.4%沒有了可是我們不曉得經過一次風災以後沒有辦法修復的或者是序號再也找不到的有多少比例這個數據我們要怎麼樣獲得"},{"start":10150.048,"end":10170.404,"text":"這一定可以獲得的啦因為我們都可以算得出來大概14.5萬片那當然每一片都有它的一個序號所以到時候就可以出來說到底誰被我回收回來因為等於是每一個面板上面都有貼了一個代碼有一個QR code什麼是出產年月日哪裡製造的都全部都所以你會知道哪一些序號最終沒辦法找回來了"},{"start":10171.384,"end":10198.363,"text":"對一定可以的那這個數據我們大概多久才會現在就是說像嘉義嘉義可能就是說我們對大型的剛剛那個像新溫的滯洪池我們要他兩個禮拜前兩個禮拜內一定要清掉如果小的話就一個禮拜內然後他要去這個所謂去化廠去把它去化掉所以第一個是那邊第二個是那邊那另外那邊呢大概要花1.5個月但是現場我們希望兩個禮拜內要清除掉"},{"start":10199.124,"end":10226.542,"text":"好 我們平均我就看了一下數據這個部長也很清楚每年我們平均的颱風大概5到7至8個3到4個登陸的好如果你們每一次都需要1.5個月統計我會覺得有一點點久不過這次我們希望可以在1.5個月後可以看到這些數據我們才知道這些光電板它的年限本來應該是20到30年所以它多少比例會因為天然的災害而提早被淘汰嗎"},{"start":10227.382,"end":10244.509,"text":"包委員因為這一次是第一次在嘉義登陸而且是涼到將近快要到16到17級的強震風基本上那個屋頂都被掀開來那那個在餘溫的光電板他用纜繩拉的那就容易斷裂其實屋頂的陸域型的是沒有什麼影響的"},{"start":10245.509,"end":10264.698,"text":"部長我們還是以防患於未然好嗎這個是您剛其實講得很清楚這個光電板你要回收哪些金屬部分它裡面的材質包括什麼那其實我就是要跟你討論剛剛我們討論的我們先舉裡面最大成分的焊接的鉛好了"},{"start":10265.886,"end":10289.668,"text":"簽列為國際第一級的高毒性重金屬台灣環保的法規限制含鉛的土壤 需要清除喔所以它對人體健康的影響有神經毒性 兒童智能發展障礙 腎損害 長期甚至還有可能致癌這個是裡面它焊接的主要成分再來它上下這個膜 希望水不要滲透進去的 浮化的塑料"},{"start":10290.769,"end":10310.058,"text":"這一些他如果已經掉在荒郊野外經過高溫焚燒產生的代藥芯吸入有高度的毒性也有可能會致癌所以你所以到底所以這就是為什麼我問你有毒還是沒有毒你跟經濟部一定有一個人是錯的不過我現在比較相信你"},{"start":10310.838,"end":10331.843,"text":"因為這些東西在環境中長期的曝露沒有人把它找回來一定有嘛 很多啊現在網友到處他去爬山或去勘栽他就馬上發現這邊一塊光電管那邊一塊這些東西長期在環境中就是會對我們的土壤還有水質產生毒性那我覺得比起我們前幾個禮拜的質詢我們空污討論這麼細討論到PM0.1"},{"start":10338.264,"end":10363.186,"text":"結果對現在這些天災產生的錯誤的能源政策製造出來的污染源是視而不見啦 是為什麼包委員 這個像你說的這個鉛喔我們剛剛今天報告 我禮拜一派同仁去量那其實未檢出 鉛未檢出等於是光電板到的這個滯洪池或餘溫去未檢出鉛 目前的情況是這樣但是你剛剛也有講啊 你說放很久的會"},{"start":10364.126,"end":10386.633,"text":"對但是這個就需要科學的這個實驗驗證啦那我們過去是沒有做過這樣的東西但是常理都知道例如說我把我的手機放在水裡面泡個五年那當然那個水我們都一定會有一點疑慮嘛對所以為什麼我們希望獲得那個數據因為你一定有一些序號是找不回來的而這些找不回來的序號就是在環境中繼續衍生出污染物啊不是嗎"},{"start":10387.433,"end":10400.707,"text":"對 如果是這個是現在我們先把它清除完如果後續如果疑似很多的話那當然後續的監控我們都一定要做好 朝偉如果真的疑似很多我們再來排一次專報好嗎好 那接下來我想放一段影片"},{"start":10404.02,"end":10432.711,"text":"這個是部長您不在三片谷的國內的時候都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的本來這個山坡地是以種育荷包鳳梨水果等等文明但是配合政府的綠能綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電這不是什麼能源轉型這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我們就是因為之前那個50公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情這邊會列條因為屬於國有土地但經能源主管機關同意者不在環評的限制設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評"},{"start":10433.251,"end":10434.412,"text":"這個我剛剛聽到你有答覆王玉敏委員了"},{"start":10451.727,"end":10478.025,"text":"除了15公頃以下還有國營事業的土地還有開發行為如果是附屬的設施只要主管機關認定就免評估剛剛很多人又加上了一個水域對不對對那你們這個因為我這個已經是您在國外的時候您參加一個研討會的質詢當時次長說會研議會檢討會開會現在已經一個月過去了我也想知道你的進度在哪裡啊"},{"start":10481.187,"end":10481.327,"text":"我們請我們市長"},{"start":10483.579,"end":10510.547,"text":"報告人 那個有關研議加研的部分 其實我們內部已經有討論過 那但是因為不修法的情況下 我們可以要求能源署在針對他們免還 認定免還平等 因為我們那個是經能源主管機關同意者不在此限 那他們必須要有他們相關的程序 還有要會商農業部和環保單位 這個我們有要求他們要"},{"start":10511.027,"end":10536.333,"text":"把它程序要明確化把它定出來這個是沒有修法的加嚴的部分那如果有修法的部分其實我們跟同學有討論過可以有很多方向那但是初步我們有想說也許就雙主管機關因為原來只有能源主管機關會不會就是連林業主管機關也加進來必須兩者同意才可以免環評甚至是"},{"start":10537.645,"end":10566.643,"text":"有很多種情境啊最嚴情境就是這個部分只要有在那個林地的地方全部都要翻屏大家其實蠻擔心的因為下一個颱風又在靠近我們了這個禮拜都看到沿海農業區保育區全部都被這些光電板漂浮的亂七八糟好你說你要跟其他的主管機關我們也只是問進度我剛問進度你到底什麼時候會把它加嚴這也是一般人民想知道的多久以內你會把它加嚴嗎"},{"start":10568.018,"end":10586.981,"text":"包委員我們上次有答覆您就是說基本上如果要涉及那個整體的因為我們今年1月16號才修訂完嘛那我們會並我們環評總體檢的部分一起如果要涉及要修法的部分我們並那個一起檢討一起來處理年底前"},{"start":10588.031,"end":10605.911,"text":"我們今年年底之前應該會到年底到或是明年初之前環兵總體檢會完成那個完成之後我們就會來啟動是不是要修法反正我們年底之前會看到你先加研嘛就是我們先總體檢完我們到底需要怎麼樣改"},{"start":10607.662,"end":10612.125,"text":"1%的光電板你現在是可以回收 可是你沒有法源可以管理它"},{"start":10629.983,"end":10650.817,"text":"基本上我們是108年以後都有被我們列管啦108年以前那時候制度是沒有列管的我是去年的3月21在委員會提了臨時提案要求把太陽能光電板列入因回收的項目完備廢棄太陽能板的回收機制你現在那一年了你什麼時候可以把它納入回收機制"},{"start":10656.144,"end":10663.278,"text":"我們這個是在做的預告 預告是八月預告預計八月預告所以你們會跟"},{"start":10665.147,"end":10688.823,"text":"經濟部因為經濟部有一個特別條例的草案各位報告那我們在光電板要回收部分目前是透過他的那個等過費去收那但是其他有一部分是沒有去透過等過費去收我們就用這個廢清法來做一個處理來要求我就只問彭部長最後一個問題這也是這次從您的報告裡面看出來的"},{"start":10689.463,"end":10714.409,"text":"您其實有預估一個未來光電板淘汰的壽命他們大概20到30年那廢棄物的話呢到121年年回收量1萬片128年10萬片那你那個時候是用天然災害的損壞率0.2到0.5%來估算的但今天的報告是寫說一次風災就0.4%你剛也講登陸的颱風你會想要調整這個數據嗎"},{"start":10719.046,"end":10742.122,"text":"這個我們可以再討論啦不過 報告委員 這個是這次是一個特別的天災然後我們光電板在這個餘溫還有滯洪池上面從來沒有遇過這麼大的過啦所以我是認為我們也可以來檢討這件事情 對我覺得部長你還是體會一下住在家裡的人的心情啦就是 大家還是會希望這件事情不要再發生 好嗎好 謝謝謝謝副委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":10748.434,"end":10750.014,"text":"來 接著我們請黃秀安委員質詢謝謝主席 我們先請部長黃委員好部長好 從上禮拜就是這個"},{"start":10769.478,"end":10789.865,"text":"颱風過境之後那很多人在關心就像我們彰化地區沿海地區海面上有一些浮動的光電板那其實我在之前我也非常關心就是說這些光電板如果像這一次一遇到颱風那它可能這個"},{"start":10790.765,"end":10816.793,"text":"定茅的這個部分如果斷裂之後它可能會變成一個海漂海漂垃圾可能就漂到其他地方了不一定是在原本這個地方也許漂到這個外海或者是澎湖其他地方都有可能那我今天也聽到很多委員對這個也非常的關心那我希望就是說未來針對這個海面上的這些光電板"},{"start":10817.113,"end":10833.026,"text":"或者是即將要新設的這些光電我覺得應該要更嚴格因為像這一次的颱風它是從西部上來那也許是第一次碰到這麼大的一個颱風那它的風速最強的是到17級"},{"start":10836.088,"end":10854.416,"text":"我不知道說這邊海面上我只有針對我彰化這邊海面上的這些光電板它可以承受到17級的陣風嗎那如果沒辦法的話未來再碰到一次的這樣子這麼大的一個颱風從西部上來那也許會造成更大的這些光電板"},{"start":10855.58,"end":10883.759,"text":"更多這個損害那漂到外海漂到其他地方剛剛大家講的說會對環境的有一些很大的影響對環境可能有一些毒這個有毒的這個重金屬也好可能對整個生態會有很大的影響那我想請教部長針對你的專業你覺得未來在海面上的這些光電或即將要設置的這些光電光電暗場"},{"start":10885.62,"end":10906.521,"text":"你是不是認為也應該要再加鹽包委員因為像這次雖然有17級的強振風可是我們的離岸風電是沒有問題的等於是還發的電還蠻多的但是太陽光電據我了解其實從來沒有這樣好好的遇過所以未來我相信我們會跟那個能源署再來討論說是不是"},{"start":10907.883,"end":10922.211,"text":"這個評估上面或模擬上面因為海上浮動的這個光電畢竟現在還在測試那未來應該因應這個未來極端氣候的條件之下勢必要調整所以我覺得你的意見我們可以跟能源署來討論"},{"start":10924.772,"end":10947.704,"text":"我是認為就是說真的要再加嚴其實有時候我在彰化地區沿海這樣走就走那個西濱快速道路那你就可以很清楚的看到這個海岸邊就是看到就是一片的那個浮動式的那個光電板那其實我覺得整個對海岸的景觀是一個"},{"start":10949.285,"end":10963.68,"text":"就會覺得說跟以前我們的是完全不太一樣是完全不一樣那又看到這一次的颱風造成這個光電可能這個錨斷了之後飄到其他的地方其實我覺得說對於這個我們應該要再好好的去做一個檢討因為你看這一次的風這麼大"},{"start":10970.347,"end":10987.072,"text":"雨這麼大那確實對整個環境會有很大很大的影響我們不能再以以前的這樣的一個環評的這個機制來未來如果要再新設的話我覺得應該要再加嚴所以我們請環境部跟能源"},{"start":10988.793,"end":11012.207,"text":"這個經濟部能源局這邊應該要再好好的去檢討另外我想請教就是說除了這個海岸的這種浮動式的光電那還有一種是屋頂型的我認為就是說因為屋頂型的這些這個光電我覺得應該是可以好好的去利用因為這一次的這個颱風其實針對這種屋頂型的好像"},{"start":11015.569,"end":11034.295,"text":"造成的這個損害好像沒有那麼大所以我覺得說與其你們一直在推可能就是說岸上或者制洪池或者是餘溫上面的這種光電那還不如就是說我們好好的去推動這種屋頂型的這種光電因為它原本就是有固定的這個"},{"start":11036.075,"end":11061.644,"text":"固定物在那邊就是房子的上面我覺得它原本就有這樣子的一個固定物在那邊那你在這個屋頂上面再加一個光電板我覺得那個應該大家也可以接受而且它的這個整個環境的景觀也不會有多大的這個改變而且那個房子它就是固定的你只要把它鎖緊應該也造成的這個颱風造成的這個損害應該也不會那麼大所以我覺得說"},{"start":11063.024,"end":11079.23,"text":"未來海上 其實海上這個光電其實我不太贊成因為畢竟它會造成整個生態的影響雖然有經過環境影響評估沒有 這個這一次都沒有這個沒有嗎 海上的這種實驗型的都沒有 完全沒有"},{"start":11079.89,"end":11107.331,"text":"所以你看喔它整個浮板這個海水來它浮起來那原本它在那個這個潮間帶的這些生物也許可會因為退潮之後它就黏在這個光電板就黏在這個海灘上面那會不會有一些生物可能就因為這樣可能沒辦法存活啊所以我覺得這個未來應該要再好好去思考加嚴這個是我認為應該要這樣那屋頂型的我覺得你們應該可以去好好的去推動"},{"start":11108.851,"end":11132.581,"text":"好謝謝委員指導我們現在思索的方向確實如委員所指導的第一個屋頂型的部分他在裝置之前他有經過結果安全的檢查而我們這次丹納斯颱風到現場去看很多有設置屋頂型的這個部分其實他的狀況都相對的安全甚至有損害也相對的輕微到目前我們統計的33個案場裡面只有9個"},{"start":11136.903,"end":11157.177,"text":"是非常小的這個輕微的部分那至於屋頂型它裝置的依照目前進食技術規則大概是12到14級風那我們在現在也預告了我們希望對於所謂的屋頂型的這個裝置它的耐風的程度要增加這是回答有關於屋頂型的部分"},{"start":11157.677,"end":11187.16,"text":"那除此之外的話剛剛有提到離岸型的這個事實上全世界各國在做多元綠能的推展的時候他有很多的創新的想法那這個所謂的離岸型的部分是一個複合性的一個風場的一個概念那個概念是說他在這個比如說在風場底下他可能有養殖或是有其他的熱需要在可以耐當地的這個風浪的一個情況可以增加這個綠能的使用"},{"start":11187.62,"end":11210.978,"text":"那這一次所謂的創新的這個科技的研究的計畫它是一個科技的研究計畫就是看看這些在台灣內陸裡面可以用的水面型然後到海浪上面的話它必須要結構做哪一些的這個部分的一個補強那當然不幸的是這一次我們教育120年來第一次從"},{"start":11214.501,"end":11233.331,"text":"布袋地區登陸當然我們也知道民國75年的時候委員颱風也有重創我們的西部所以我們對於未來全國面對極端的氣候不管是在我們的綠能或是在關鍵基礎設施或是在我們的社區怎麼樣增強韌性的部分"},{"start":11234.372,"end":11255.12,"text":"我們經濟部內部已經開過非常多次的會議舉例而言我們這次發現說很多的地方電線桿因為倒塌了所以電網的部分沒有辦法來通電如果是我們可以有一些分散式的一個電網然後可以增加這個韌性甚至搭配儲能設施我們這次"},{"start":11257.501,"end":11277.676,"text":"但那是颱風之後能源署也調印了非常多的這個發電機跟儲冷的設備設備到社區關懷中心或是餘溫來供當地的使用這個是我們未來提升韌性的思索方向以上好那我還是認為就是說海面上的這種光電板我覺得應該要去好好去做一個檢討啦"},{"start":11278.536,"end":11286.361,"text":"到底台灣適不適合這樣去做另外那個部長你可以先回我問一下次長因為這一次的這個颱風過後彰化當天颱風當天是沒有造成什麼大的損害那隔天的話雨下的"},{"start":11294.065,"end":11308.701,"text":"真的是超級多啦非常大 因為食慾量達到150毫米台北市的耐災的程度是食慾量78毫米而且它是在兩個小時裡面突然間下下來的是啊 當天那個水真的像是用到的"},{"start":11309.281,"end":11330.414,"text":"那彰化有很多地方都淹水那我想請教就是說次長你在當水利署署長的時候當年我們前山基礎建設有一個八年八百億的那個治水計畫那應該有一部分也有發揮它的功能那我想請教就是說因為這一次像彰化地區有很多這個排水"},{"start":11331.054,"end":11354.206,"text":"排水系統可能還要再做一個檢討那低窪的地區可能也要這個原本的排水可能要再加大或加深那我想請教這個次長現在我們經濟部這邊或者是整個行政院這邊有沒有針對因為颱風這次颱風很多淹水的地方那有沒有再針對就是說一淹水地區要有一個治水計畫"},{"start":11355.77,"end":11372.315,"text":"從民國96年開始政府集中資源來協助地方政府辦理區域的排水的改善包括前瞻的計畫我們發現說成效確實展現出來以彰化鹿港為例剛剛說的那一場的大雨我們發現淹水的時間越來越少"},{"start":11375.756,"end":11400.405,"text":"淹水的面積越來越少兩三個小時就淹起來了那院長也指示說我們做系統性的治理用三大的原則提高保護標準降低淹水的時間降低淹水的面積那目前經濟部已經擬定了計畫呈報到行政院去我們希望說比如說像鹿港它有一些抽水站它是20年前設的"},{"start":11401.505,"end":11414.84,"text":"那這些抽水站必須要改善那如何來提高保護的那個能力就是在我們的河道的下游若是有一個比較高的保護能力的這個抽水站的話他的退水的時間會更快"},{"start":11416.682,"end":11439.635,"text":"我們希望就是說中央來協助地方因為確實這個雨下得又大又急在兩三個小時之內就整個都淹起來而且淹到膝蓋以上所以我們希望就是說中央跟地方一起合作讓一些易淹水地區或是比較低窪地區不論是排水整個排水系統可能要再次做個檢討"},{"start":11440.675,"end":11455.944,"text":"那有的可能需要真的需要那個抽水抽水可能那個功能可能要再加強因為真的那個時間確實可能要在一兩個小時內趕快啟動要不然真的是還蠻慘的"},{"start":11457.748,"end":11478.667,"text":"跟委員說明我們生活的彰化地區是全國第一個實施競牛分攤的也是在我們鹿港那為什麼會在鹿港實施這個計畫是因為我們透過土城的套點我們發現說在鹿港的老街它是一個比較相對低窪的地方那無論工程的設施在如何的做它可能要花大筆的錢"},{"start":11479.708,"end":11501.95,"text":"如果是可以藉由我們已經有選定大概五處的地方公有的這個土地那它比如說操場下面可以當制紅池然後有一些的公園也可以做制紅的這個設備那未來這些的設施如果完成了之後我們這個耐震的程度就會提升那當然我們也需要社區然後大家一起來努力"},{"start":11502.35,"end":11525.778,"text":"是好那我們希望就是說中央這邊真的預算要趕快就是針對那個治水的預算如果可以編足的話未來可以減少這樣子淹水的一個狀況也許一年淹個15次那因為有這樣的一個治水計畫可以減少個10次不然真的昨天你有看到那個天后宮的主委有特別提到一年淹15次"},{"start":11527.358,"end":11543.624,"text":"真的他不想再忍了所以我希望就是說中央跟地方我們一起合作然後中央來協助地方廣設制洪池或者是這個淹水地區的排水系統或是抽水站讓地方不要受淹水之苦啦好謝謝委員指導好謝謝好謝謝黃委員謝謝次長來繼續我們請林淑芬委員"},{"start":11560.816,"end":11562.997,"text":"好 謝謝 是不是請我們彭部長理委好部長好 這是颱風17急風我們看到滿目瘡痍 而且這個災損非常的嚴重不僅是家園的破損 也不只是這個光電板還有一種更致命的威脅"},{"start":11583.587,"end":11604.178,"text":"那很多人大量的這個暴露在這種獨管法所列管全面的禁用而且這個巨大的風險而且馬上接觸到會直接造成傷害的有害廢棄物的風險之中你猜猜看那這些東西會是那這個物質是什麼"},{"start":11606.072,"end":11620.563,"text":"比這個光電板還要更巨大的風險直接暴露會導致肺癌、喉癌、卵巢癌還有肩皮瘤癌我講肩皮瘤癌大家在聽有了啦好 包委員 失眠失眠 對嘉義台南 對失眠很嚴重"},{"start":11624.705,"end":11645.871,"text":"失眠它的纖維是人類頭髮的千分之一一旦吸入很難排出我們剛剛講的很容易引起肺部細胞的病變所以國際癌症研究所是列為第一類的人體致癌物我剛剛講的那幾種癌是非常"},{"start":11647.911,"end":11661.847,"text":"嚴重的那面對這個可預見的公共衛生的危機這次風災不要忘了17級多少的房子以前在蓋的老舊房子屋頂屋瓦"},{"start":11662.968,"end":11684.841,"text":"都是實棉瓦牆壁實棉牆這種狀況裡面我們要問部長你到底可以退估你們有沒有去評估有沒有去計算災區現在有多少的實棉廢棄物呢有報告委員三個縣市包含嘉義縣市還有台南總共有15600噸"},{"start":11687.799,"end":11703.99,"text":"嘉義縣市還有台南那你們整個化管署從2019年就逐步推動實名建材的普查和管理那初期透過人力的目測進行事半調查"},{"start":11705.091,"end":11712.154,"text":"那發現全國普查存在著高成本還有高樓層難以去辨識的限制所以你們現在都改用航遙測還有這個高光譜影像和衛星資料去完成屋頂實面瓦的空間分佈推估還有全台灣的資料庫建置喔那在這種狀況裡面呢2022年你們針對建築物不是只有屋頂用實面瓦"},{"start":11730.66,"end":11739.17,"text":"包括建築物的側邊那其實很難去推估也很難去盤點高樓層也很困難你們用航側其實有點困難所以你們進行了這個影像辨識和無人機的調查技術開發這個地調查用APP發現"},{"start":11752.084,"end":11765.331,"text":"這個開發這個限地調查限地調查用的APP工具那2023年整合了AI的這個機器學習完全側邊十面影像的自動判試技術啦這種狀況裡面這次災損年評估是13000噸左右15000度15000噸"},{"start":11772.475,"end":11790.706,"text":"但我要問你你們這麼多年用了航遙測AI影像辨識技術提升了資料的掌握度但你們在這種狀況裡面根據你們調查全台灣有多少的洞屋子的結構是使用10米瓦多少洞大概有多少量全部我印象是50萬噸50萬噸"},{"start":11794.508,"end":11801.73,"text":"如果以屋頂的話是屋瓦的話是20幾萬棟20幾萬棟當時我們推估就是從10米瓦的部分來推估我看你們的資料你們根據2023年的統計和推估10米屋頂數量還有推估的重量屋頂和重量沒有包括側邊 其實還有側邊"},{"start":11819.594,"end":11846.892,"text":"就光是看屋頂就好了動數最多的前三個縣市是台南市高雄市雲林縣而重量最重的前三個縣市是台南市彰化縣和高雄市所以災情最嚴重的這個換句話說台南雲林彰化等等都是10米瓦的數量和重量最多的地區就符合你剛才的報告"},{"start":11850.055,"end":11855.721,"text":"你們也去估出來了 那請問你們估出來後怎麼應用在這個災後的"},{"start":11856.972,"end":11882.192,"text":"這個清理上面你們政策上是怎麼做因為過去從112到116總共編了行政院給了16億的經費逐年來做那一年大概是大概3億左右那這次是完全沒有辦法應付這個因為這個是主要是給民宅為主那我們今年4月有給一半的就是給畜牧業畜牧業如果他的屋頂壞掉他該得到50%的補助"},{"start":11883.533,"end":11912.319,"text":"但是這次其實真的是全面性的全面性的台南嘉義特別是嘉義很嚴重對所以因為其實報告委員因為那個一頓的處理費用要四萬五啦對很貴所以目前呢我們現在估算出來整個要處理解決這次風災光是這三個縣市大概就要七八億左右所以我們現在的確是正在努力的盤點量有多少跟地方政府合作盤點多少然後確定多少然後我們"},{"start":11912.619,"end":11922.151,"text":"你現在告訴我們說你的錢不夠但我的重點不在這裡而已這個很重要因為沒有錢沒有辦法去做嘛但我現在更要緊的是我跟你講大量的暴露風險 立即的風險對生命安全對健康的風險的危害是立即的"},{"start":11930.642,"end":11935.168,"text":"那災後的實棉清理 你預算不夠了 那人力就足夠了嗎那不要講這個喔 夠可能會去人家家裡說你家裡破了 你的實棉花破了我派人專業人力來幫你處理 不可能嘛"},{"start":11945.8,"end":11969.208,"text":"所以呢這個民眾要自立救濟要去修繕的時候這些人能不能了解實棉廢棄物怎麼處理呢你們做了什麼事我們有跟那個環保局合作主動的透過各種的媒介讓民眾知道你是實棉瓦啊你如果破了你一定要找專業人來幫你講一樣臨港環保局合作來看一個區公所區公所台南市七谷區區公所"},{"start":11978.296,"end":12002.095,"text":"來台南市七谷區公所他說他告訴人家怎麼處理失眠喔失眠王 失眠喔中邪沒有 第一類的致癌物質喔然後114年丹納斯颱風失眠輕孕公所登記注意事項第一個請民眾拍照留存可以到公所來登記或者是電洽環保局第二個"},{"start":12003.276,"end":12027.641,"text":"儘由住家拆下的實棉自己拆可以交到公所來定期啦你如果叫人家專業來拆 不用交公所來定期第三 民眾可以先將實棉拆除 裝到太空包 飼料袋或肥料袋打包後請暫置自家場所 地勢等等 等等 OK這樣做是合格的嗎"},{"start":12028.661,"end":12048.856,"text":"我們都知道 失眠纖維比頭髮 頭髮的千分之一啦然後立即馬上的自己拆除 然後叫他自己打包然後立即吸入 立即接觸 立即暴露於風險當中那如果我們來看一下 我們看一下這個依據勞動部的標準 勞動部的標準"},{"start":12052.366,"end":12070.274,"text":"因為剛才台南市環保局對外的這個說明的補助原則是先拆先清然後裝袋後再來通知他們公所或環保局嘉義縣的做法也大同小異要求自行拆除政府僅負責後續的清運工作不要忘了喔"},{"start":12070.974,"end":12089.221,"text":"所以最危險的是拆除那個環節毫無專業的姿勢而且沒有任何防護的設備這樣的民眾他完全不知道自己的風險有多大我們看勞動部頒布的實免建材拆除危害預防指引第一條 作業人員必須穿戴個人防護裝備"},{"start":12098.489,"end":12113.906,"text":"第二個 隔離禁止進入及公告拆除現場的器具或防護具等未經清除附著物者不得吸觸作業場所這嚴格 你看附著物的清除要隔離措施欸"},{"start":12116.092,"end":12140.321,"text":"所以事前他還講要調查要通報然後拆除的過程拆除以前必須將實棉建材以水或化學藥劑充分濕潤而且禁止使用強力的水槍以抑制粉塵的易散然後作業場所需要雙層隔離還要將工作區完全密閉維持在負壓狀態"},{"start":12142.442,"end":12156.27,"text":"防止失眠纖維外洩出口還要設置儲屋區專業的防護專業人員衣鋪路的等級穿戴動力濾鏡式呼吸防護具連身防護衣護目鏡手套等等這個是"},{"start":12163.921,"end":12192.841,"text":"這個是勞動部頒布的 你在拆除的時候你的專業人力才能操作 而且必須專業的配備保護然後呢 你現在 你的公司剛才叫人自己拿 還要跟人家說這個問題 沒有你說你自己拿 整個地也搞好 我們幫你拿來去帶 這樣對不對然後呢 一般民眾不是這個指引適用的對象但是他危害的風險是一致的"},{"start":12194.444,"end":12204.44,"text":"齁 而且他毫無知識欸 毫無常識欸然後公所剛好去宣導 林衛福部剛好要報告環境部剛好要求他們要去宣導"},{"start":12205.785,"end":12227.749,"text":"你們沒有錢給他們 然後你們就讓他們自己自生自滅污染了居家的環境 還讓這一些受災戶 風災的受災戶要成為有害有毒廢棄物的二次暴露和環境再次傷害的二次受災戶這樣感覺到嗎"},{"start":12230.58,"end":12239.128,"text":"各位報告我們過去就是開始要去讓我們的實棉因為跟健康調查要清除的時候那我們有同時跟地方環保局來說明這個這一次有嗎"},{"start":12244.276,"end":12261.012,"text":"這次有公文給他們有通知他們嗎有責成地方環保局要去通知公所嗎有告訴公所你要叫人家拆除實棉不要忘了這個風險有多大你看勞動部的指引你看"},{"start":12262.333,"end":12277.345,"text":"七谷區公所 民眾自省拆除 防護宣導 沒有 幾乎沒有一到叫人家怎麼穿 要怎麼口罩要N95 至少要N95什麼動力式的過濾的呼吸器 就不奢求了"},{"start":12278.858,"end":12292.992,"text":"光是裝在太空包合格嗎?光是裝在太空包合格嗎?裝在飼料袋、肥料袋,汙染不就外洩了嗎?它是不是有毒有害廢棄物?是不是?它是有害,因為它是纖維的問題對啊,有害啊"},{"start":12301.365,"end":12322.044,"text":"所以你看網友留言說什麼網友的講法是說你公司是叫我們喔實免掉下來廢棄物加上建築上剩餘的實免全部照片跑公所登記然後把實免掉下來廢棄物加上剩餘的實免現在先放在自己家裡面用太空包 飼料袋 肥料袋"},{"start":12323.105,"end":12335.294,"text":"這還在暴露喔 風險還繼續喔然後他說 理解的沒有錯吧然後鹽水區公所說 對對對 但是要裝袋喔裝袋就好了 飛到地上也可以 太空袋也可以起到地上也可以現在他們還有人來留言是說 這個"},{"start":12342.829,"end":12364.582,"text":"環保局會派業者來將實名運走其他不是實名完的自行處理重點都說這個重點都不是這個只有逼太陽能板更加立即性的傷害的暴露在更巨大的有害有毒的風險當中有沒有比太陽能板更可怕更可怕肺癌 尖皮瘤癌而且吸進去拿不出來 一輩子你怎麼做 保證你是做什麼"},{"start":12372.245,"end":12391.684,"text":"各位報告我們我們這次這個上禮拜的颱風的確是沒有特別再去講不過因為在台南嘉義本來他們就是數量很多的來看上一張所以你來看你沒有特別去講你看這公售公售叫人走你看這建築物含實免建材拆除剛才那一張對"},{"start":12394.318,"end":12418.795,"text":"隔離防護及廢棄物清理作業流程其實光是它的廢棄物都應該以厚度萬分之六十以上的塑膠袋雙層盛裝開口綁緊後戴口反摺再綑綁一次或以有封口的太空包這個盛裝盛裝外帶應有標示資訊如果有尖銳物體應置入金屬圓筒內包裝"},{"start":12420.913,"end":12424.296,"text":"這是很嚴格的這個是很嚴肅的事情這個比太陽能光電對人體的立即性傷害還更大包委員我們過去這一個多禮拜是跟地方政府在盤點需要有多少量然後去爭取經費你們盤點"},{"start":12444.716,"end":12449.938,"text":"是例行性盤點不是風災沒有沒有就是風災風災後因為今年已經沒有預算了1.56萬噸對阿需要要多少錢7.8億左右所以我們要很努力去因為可能是地方政府他的知識不夠阿這個部分我們會加強7.8億夠嗎我現在為什麼要講這個呢因為你們從2023年開始就補助各地方政府免費清除石棉瓦但"},{"start":12471.624,"end":12476.388,"text":"民眾申請非常踴躍大家知道說這個劇毒有害就都馬上要來申請補助要去清除所以每年經費都很快用完苗栗那種人口稀少的地區它出現了270噸的補助配額的時候5天就湧入330噸的申請量那台南市政府也表示民眾申請踴躍但每年經費很快用完"},{"start":12500.146,"end":12506.828,"text":"那你們的113年度去年的減收減量回收及資源循環推動計畫編列了相關的預算大概有5.8億看起來好像不少但是你知道全國推估24萬噸總重量52.9萬噸的實棉建築這是杯水車薪"},{"start":12520.253,"end":12529.76,"text":"那風災是特別事件而且瞬間短期大量的製造出了這個非立即拆除不可的石面他短期需要7.8萬噸你夠7.8萬7.8億7.8億那需要那錢要從哪裡來"},{"start":12537.046,"end":12547.337,"text":"目前我們正在爭取當中爭取哪裡 現在預算都沒有沒有沒有因為這個其實是因為院長有特別交代請陳靜德政委組成一個協調會因為這是風災的特別專案然後錢要從哪裡來第二億北京"},{"start":12554.505,"end":12575.951,"text":"我不知道因為我們現在是跟地方合作因為地方先報給我們一個最大的量然後我相信可能實質的量我現在要說你們自己委託額外研究指數如果沒有這次風災然後照你平常所編列的預算去推估你們補助對象分年排出量以建築物登記時間估算屋齡建物耐用年數60年來推估的話"},{"start":12581.613,"end":12595.376,"text":"一百五十五年才能全數自然排出一百五十五年照你們現在這種的所以實免現在你們的處理最終處理就是以固化掩埋那未來要以這個導向熱處理為主然後這個錢要花很多這個你們評估這一次的這一個量1.5"},{"start":12609.339,"end":12613.046,"text":"1.56萬噸1.56萬噸左右吧全部要採固化處理去掩埋嗎"},{"start":12621.849,"end":12648.781,"text":"這是目前的處理方法那我們現在嘉義台南雲林有固定掩埋的這個足夠的裝置容量嗎各位報告我們現在是有那個共同契約那分北中南然後去開這個共同契約那你們現在沒關係你們共同契約裡面你們都掩埋有哪幾個掩埋場不是每一個掩埋場都能掩埋吧是是那現在有三家"},{"start":12650.382,"end":12675.04,"text":"有三個三家哪個掩埋場我不是講那個處理商啊三個掩埋場是哪三個三個它的處理廠對啊掩埋場掩埋在哪裡啦哪三個地方它的掩埋容納量可以多少它是專門否實棉的嗎它是為了就是最終的掩埋的處理設施那實棉是它的其中一種那現在是有三家沒有我現在的問題是掩埋場的容量還足夠嗎"},{"start":12676.636,"end":12698.969,"text":"那三家你唸給我聽他們容納量是多少三家是中台日友跟可寧衛可寧衛中台日友他們的掩埋場在哪裡張斌掩埋就地掩埋有埋的他們會先來做固化然後再來做一個掩埋好"},{"start":12701.38,"end":12718.007,"text":"那這些瞬間大量的石棉瓦或石棉廢棄物它的空間調度這個掩埋的空間調度是不是有評估那你們評估這樣子平日的處理量能突然增加了這麼多這個會不會有捉襟見肘的可能"},{"start":12721.082,"end":12728.71,"text":"到底因為你是混合埋在一起聽你這麼說是混合埋在一起嗎事業廢棄物混合它會分區像它這個實棉會先過化會有一個區域去做不同廢棄物的掩埋"},{"start":12738.52,"end":12748.045,"text":"這次要最終贏那對啊 所以你是分區啊那我所以才問你說10年10年的這個那一區還有多少量啊夠嗎 瞬間增加了一兩萬噸欸對 對 先"},{"start":12754.997,"end":12778.715,"text":"你提供資料給我們還有 固化處理掩埋也不是永久的解決之道那對於食棉掩埋場的人員還有處理廢棄物的人員來講其實食棉廢棄物被封裝 仍然有食棉的特性那你固化或封裝不佳或其他的原因導致食棉易散可能這一些工作人員他們的勞安的檢查也很重要喔"},{"start":12779.355,"end":12782.538,"text":"他們如果吸入了 然後他們的風險 暴露的風險就很高了那我現在問就是說你們有熱處理的試驗你們現在其實希望就是還有一種熱處理的管道來處理它在這種既有的隧道窯 磚窯業 協同處理廢石明瓦的浪板"},{"start":12800.114,"end":12818.562,"text":"那如果以中央驗你們現在的試驗是900度的高溫停留4個小時950度的這個停留時間4小時作為本次4艘的參數他可能這個實面纖維的破壞性的可行性到底有沒有但是你們嘗試起來900度950度都還是有減出"},{"start":12821.983,"end":12846.622,"text":"所以這個煙道間啊周邊的食品纖維含量都還有被檢出所以他們認為說要梭子窯熱處理的試驗計畫1000度以上一個小時才破壞得了食品纖維的結構所以你們這個熱處理的這個實驗和研究應該要加速吧而且你們退估1.56萬噸這個數量會不會短估了"},{"start":12851.447,"end":12877.05,"text":"這個是目前 有沒有可能短估的這個是 你們怎麼推估出來的 方法怎麼推的我們基本上是靠跟地方政府合作因為其實這個有很大量是OK 這是統計的 我想是統計的他們實際上一個一個但是有一個對啦 就是我剛剛看區公所講的你們如果請業者處理的請業者處理的我們就不用拍照 我們公所不受理你要我們幫你最終處理的拿去固化掩埋的 對"},{"start":12877.931,"end":12902.063,"text":"來跟我們公所登記所以你的1.56萬噸是由公所報上來或是業者來承報的嘛但是我現在要告訴你喔在鄉下地區喔很多人他不知道危害他也不知道這有風險他就踏踏的歐北等個等在那裡那個這個是短估的喔你的估值是可能短少的"},{"start":12902.503,"end":12919.493,"text":"對 包委員因為我們是我是上禮拜三補出來的那當時那個台南或嘉義有些路是不通的所以基本上他們估這個數字基本還會更多喔量是更多喔有可能但我現在講說公所現在叫人家青菜蒸蒸的蛋在淋刀這個東西沒用的喔這個我們來解決這個東西沒用的喔我知道我知道這個我們會來處理還有喔處理業者是一回事搬運的過程公所的清潔隊隊員"},{"start":12931.84,"end":12938.644,"text":"放在人家家裡放在家裡 家裡旁邊 孩子 大家都在家裡 我的意思是說其實你們要做的事情還很多你們應該要主動再更積極的去做事 去宣導 去教人家"},{"start":12952.711,"end":12975.968,"text":"齁 這個事情知識體大比討論這個太陽能板的危害還更直接 他就直接暴露直接是有害了對 好 謝謝委員 這個我們會遵照處理好 謝謝 謝謝林委員 不然我請教一下你說二十幾萬噸一噸如果十噸 那不就兩百多萬噸不會啦 五十幾萬噸"},{"start":12977.93,"end":12987.281,"text":"二十幾萬噸 五十幾萬噸全部清掉要兩百多億啊所以這個只能逐年來編這個預算"},{"start":13001.22,"end":13015.186,"text":"壞掉的才要破碎的才要出現如果靜靜的躺在那邊是沒事?沒有,沒有事,沒有事,對好,謝謝,謝謝部長,來,黃正旭總留專家"},{"start":13028.25,"end":13050.458,"text":"我就根據這個剛剛林書恩委員提出這個問題其實大家最怕的失眠會致癌嘛那是一個一級的致癌物質沒錯不過那個是要長期曝露啦所以如果是一個民眾在短期像最近發生這樣的問題的話如果是長期曝露其實從那個致癌原理來看"},{"start":13051.098,"end":13068.41,"text":"他的風險是有可是不是大家所擔心的就是說我現在今天因為有這個暴露的狀況我是不是一個禮拜一個月幾個幾年以後就會馬上有這個厲害那麼高的風險這個是可能要讓民眾放心大家不要想說我這樣是不是"},{"start":13070.692,"end":13096.609,"text":"人們會去丟臉就要造成一種生活上的困難或困擾這個其實民眾也可以從具有的科學知識來知道很多的致癌過程其實是跟我們的日常生活息息相關跟我們的這個建築物有一些關聯性可是也不要因為這個樣子過度恐慌造成不當的影響這個就先跟大家也做個說明跟報告今天很謝謝我們這個"},{"start":13101.452,"end":13128.282,"text":"召集今天這樣的會議謝謝我們蘇委員能夠讓大家都知道各個部會針對這次的風災造成的影響大家都很怕病趕快期待能夠讓國人能夠恢復正常的生活這個就是非常謝謝蘇召委今天開這個相關委員會能夠讓國人知道大家努力的共同目標是在哪裡"},{"start":13129.022,"end":13157.437,"text":"我還是先麻煩這個經濟部的次長先來討論一下這個這次風災造成的一些電網韌性的部分好 委員好來 次長好我們也知道這次造成的風災影響我本身住在嘉義端那個地方比較營養很厲害很厲害我想跟這個趙偉一樣大家在住在東南部都感受到這次颱風造成的影響"},{"start":13158.898,"end":13169.742,"text":"呃看起來有100萬戶的用戶的這個用電受到影響啊到今天早上7點為止齁更新的最新消息還是有將近1300戶啊不完全好啦啊應該啦齁這兩天當然"},{"start":13173.763,"end":13200.989,"text":"真的台電非常怕病 大家也都說很感心都了解說這個怕病真的是讓這個受災戶得到很好的影響那我們也很可惜就是有一位台電的員工就是因為在這個救災過程裡面希望能夠趕快讓用戶能夠可以有電可用結果造成了這個生命上的影響這個大家都覺得很不捨不過我們也看得出來這一次所受的影響裡面看起來都是電費條"},{"start":13203.95,"end":13221.754,"text":"這電費條要多幾百 大家都會覺得將來有可能要怎麼減輕這個電費條受到的影響因為我們看到高壓輸電線啊 或者是那些固定好的相對比較穩固的機器 紅帶動員真厲害嘛這個有到這個17級的風 這麼大的這個風可是如果說有好的這個處理方式將來"},{"start":13229.455,"end":13245.04,"text":"是不是有機會減少這樣的這個影響因為我們看到就是另外上一次這麼厲害的就是在蘇迪洛的颱風那是10年前所以如果我們雖然是10年是很長的時間不過我們要來換算我們如何能夠讓這個電網的韌性"},{"start":13249.381,"end":13278.184,"text":"可以在硬體上來加強的話那目前針對這次的颱風的經驗還是說用十年或者是幾年的這個經驗值來換的話那我們如果能夠針對這個電線感尤其是在比較寬闊像嘉南平原那種地方要怎樣有機會來減少類似這樣的影響不知道目前經濟部或者是台電這邊有沒有初步的一些想法或者是一些配套的措施"},{"start":13278.995,"end":13297.901,"text":"首先跟委員報告台電的電網強固計畫大概編了10年5600億左右從分散強固部分來著手那近幾年來台電所犯的這個電感大概是一級的電感它的耐風的這個等級的話比原來我們在鄉間或是偏遠地方"},{"start":13299.822,"end":13324.077,"text":"設置的西級的電感它可以更耐風那除此之外的話比如說我們這是以新溫為例的話新溫有三個電塔倒塌了那如果是我們可以分散電網的工作可以做更加的做的細緻的話它的影響的戶數就會比較少一點那當然除這個計畫之外我們最近在檢討裡面有發現說"},{"start":13327.119,"end":13354.577,"text":"不管是區域的電網要分散化之外那是不是有一些的微電網可以改善或是搭配儲能或是社區關懷中心活動中心有一些既有已經匹配好的發電機或是儲能系統這樣子就可以來減少民眾生活的這個不便性那舉例來講我們這幾天拼命的掉非常多的發電機但是每一個地方每一個使用的那個"},{"start":13356.218,"end":13374.353,"text":"它的系統不太一樣所以我們花了很長的時間去做匹配的工作因為只要匹配的不好它馬達會反轉它反而會整體可能是電力就失效可能造成搶修上面一個困難但是若是有儲能的系統搭配"},{"start":13375.034,"end":13386.489,"text":"比如說像屋頂型有比較強固的屋頂型的太陽能光電系統的話那這樣子對於設置所在的這個民眾或社區的影響就會相對的降低"},{"start":13387.017,"end":13413.15,"text":"所以這是系統性的部分還需要再做加強嘛是其實剛剛這個次長也有提到另外一個問題就是說他很用心的希望能夠去加強我們這些光電板的使用來讓整體的用電可以有更為穩固可是我們看到的是說下一張很可惜啦因為大陸旁邊"},{"start":13414.531,"end":13442.809,"text":"花了很多電 可是自己竟然因為這樣的風災而沒辦法使用就像很多住在這個水庫旁邊結果出問題的時候呢 反而沒水可用所以像這個是89歲阿嬤 她就非常可惜她住在七股區結果她那邊的面積1.1萬公頃裡面有三分之一左右將來會變成一個光電區已經開發了一千 一百多公頃"},{"start":13444.009,"end":13458.261,"text":"結果因為颱風業他沒有電可以用結果他用了相關的一些方式來希望能夠用哪條燈火結果就發生了火災造成了悲劇"},{"start":13459.562,"end":13478.07,"text":"那這個當然我們也希望那個社會安全的部分明天衛福部我們也希望能夠針對出現這樣的這個大的這個事故的時候怎麼樣去讓社會安全可以有機會來維持不過同樣的就是說這個住宅桌邊開發大面積的光電煤電可用這個"},{"start":13480.492,"end":13496.673,"text":"為韌性的部分如何來加強不知道目前次長有沒有相關的一些訊息因為我們去了解其他國家如何優先開發光電區域來提升這個電網的韌性其實都有不同的做法日本啊或者是像歐盟"},{"start":13497.634,"end":13507.419,"text":"澳洲等等不知道有沒有參考類似的國家針對這個周邊開發大面積的光電的地方如何能夠減少對水化變化最可用的這個窘境"},{"start":13510.405,"end":13529.515,"text":"此次丹納斯颱風我們經過統計所有的電線桿搗斷了3,455根特別是在颱風侵襲的重災區包括我們嘉義跟北台南我們現在看到的電線桿幾乎都是台電的員工"},{"start":13530.955,"end":13552.711,"text":"這幾天裡面所新述出來的那至於剛剛委員這張slide所提到的這個部分因為我們不管是從發電端它所發出來的電都是靠台電的這個電網系統來供應的那為了要改善這個問題達到委員所期待的這個目標它可能必須要搭配儲冷的這個系統"},{"start":13554.112,"end":13577.859,"text":"這個充能系統它可以有頻率的調整因為我們知道任何一個發電設施它的發電的時間跟頻率必須要有發電的時間會不太一樣如果是有這個配套的話它可以取代說台電的電網一旦有所破壞的時候它可以受到的這個影響會降到最低"},{"start":13579.651,"end":13605.668,"text":"是 好 謝謝那就次長先請回座來請教一下彭部長部長 我們可以說到目前這次包括台南 嘉義有那麼多的這個光電板需要即時處理一共有14萬5千片約有2800公噸早上年年有報告說目前有四個機構四家可以來處理每一個月可以達到4400噸的這個處理的這個量能"},{"start":13609.33,"end":13614.553,"text":"不過這個是普通是一個月可以處理4400嘛現在是兩天就要處理2800噸這個時間跟著時間在賽跑大家剛剛討論很多就是說這些東西你如果不趕緊處理會不會對於土"},{"start":13626.698,"end":13647.966,"text":"泥土的土壤的影響啊或是對於水質的影響等等的所以想要知道就是目前在這麼短的時間裡面這個量能如果他們是屬於全部都是在處理這些光電板的這個廠嗎還是說他們還有家長要處理其他的這些廢棄物那在量能上有沒有什麼要因應的部分"},{"start":13648.466,"end":13664.305,"text":"報告委員我上禮拜六有去特別去看了廠就是這個處理的廠那他們當然啦原來的量沒那麼的多因為以前就沒有那麼多可以去處理那現在突然多了那麼多那我們是給他有一個許可量過去有一個許可量所以這個4400噸是我們給他的許可量"},{"start":13667.088,"end":13688.249,"text":"那現在我們會打開許可量那他們也會答應全天候的加班來處理這個事情所以他們預估1.5個月1個半月可以去化完成所以委員就是說我們前面的那個現場清理最多兩個禮拜然後後面希望1.5個月可以完成這個是我們目前掌握的訊息"},{"start":13689.179,"end":13709.828,"text":"希望到時候部長可以用心的去查核就是1.5個月到底能不能夠像他們所允諾的可以把它處理到一個比較完整的部分那早上也有提到說有關於在這個設置光電廠的時候需要繳交回收費用那目前我們依照這個回收費用100瓦的這個"},{"start":13711.389,"end":13726.014,"text":"發電量需要繳交一千元的模組回收費可是這個是分十年期來做回收嘛現在針對天災受損的部分可能有一些是剛繳交一到兩年"},{"start":13727.114,"end":13745.662,"text":"所以依照這個像嘉義所造成的影響他可能在109年才開始處理好所以他們事實上只有到目前為止只有繳交將近4到5年嘛未來目前這麼大的影響如何能夠讓這個費用可以"},{"start":13747.223,"end":13758.03,"text":"確定他們會能夠繳納完成或者是之前有沒有沒有辦法如期繳交這個費用的部分不知道目前有沒有數據可以給大家做參考"},{"start":13759.032,"end":13778.612,"text":"是 這個目前是業者他要繳交 他要分年度來繳交但是目前這個風災受損的部分還是他自己要去處理那未來他要逐步把這個費用再繳回來那我們現在是繳交的費用是一個大水庫他繳到我們能源發展基金來"},{"start":13780.994,"end":13805.97,"text":"環境部這邊處理完之後他要的費用再跟我們申請但是這個責任都是在業者身上他現在沒有繳足的他還是要自己處理那未來他如果提前來繳交這個費用的話未來會從他整體的費用裡面扣足也就是說他有多少太陽能板他就是要處理多少那不夠的他要自己先行處理那未來他會再陸續繳交費用回來"},{"start":13808.773,"end":13827.679,"text":"因為這個牽涉到兩個部會嘛包括經濟部還有環境部所以真的這個費用的繳交或者是如何能夠去做適當的管理這個我們會努力的來注意將來在這個費用處理上面是不是能夠依照我們當初所預期的可以得到很好的處理模式"},{"start":13828.419,"end":13845.384,"text":"好 謝謝再過來就是有關於這個4月廢棄物去化量的部分我想很多委員也都非常的關心包括廢棄物能不能再因為這個因應災後的需求我們這邊看到就是重創家人的同時其實新北環保隊真的非常的感心"},{"start":13846.144,"end":13871.158,"text":"去協助處理了這個將近3000噸的廢棄物所以我想這個是中央可以調配還是說這是新北他們非常用心的去協助各個不同的縣市那我們看到八七彰化七八水災以後垃圾要三天裡面要這個清理4600噸相信如果能夠及時的去處理到的話對於環境的影響"},{"start":13872.239,"end":13894.447,"text":"包括早上王一鳴有很擔心會不會因為這些廢棄物沒有及時清理好以後對於公共衛生造成的衝擊等等的那目前中央有沒有統籌如何能夠針對這個廢棄物去量化做一個適時的調配或者是如何能夠協助讓這個受災區域能夠盡速的去完成這樣的災後的處理模式"},{"start":13895.732,"end":13921.15,"text":"我們要感謝各縣市通道一命環保局一起來幫助這幾個縣市這個量的部分我請我們的署長來回應委員所關心的嘉義縣這個部分到15號為止總共清除了6000公噸的量截至目前為止就採分流的方式這個可以焚燒的因為這個可以調度到焚化廠裡面"},{"start":13921.61,"end":13937.971,"text":"那其他有些樹枝暫時還很潮濕的就先到一些掩埋場先暫置做一個處理之後再回到這個魂化場裡面或其他管道裡面那大的木材是可以飆售的這個同時再做"},{"start":13941.354,"end":13964.241,"text":"這個是4月廢棄物也好或者是這一次因為風災帶來廢棄物廢棄物也好這個大家可以共同像剛剛講的同島移民嘛大概就會來處理不過我們要麻煩這個農業部市長是不是也可以同時告訴我們一下這邊的農業也是影響很大包括我們所擔心的這個文旦一下子全部都被"},{"start":13965.582,"end":13988.159,"text":"這個風災所遷完了嘛還有很多相關的這個農業如果因為這次風災造成的這種果實掉落或是其他相關的廢棄物的影響包括廚餘如果在這個風災裡面是不是也因為受到這個量能的排擠有沒有一個新的方式或者是好的方式來處理我這邊先跟兩位部會的這個長官同時來"},{"start":13989.54,"end":14007.203,"text":"希望能夠針對於如果再有機廢棄物也好或者是處理廢棄物也好針對這個好的方式來解決這些廢棄物的話像目前我們知道黑水盲事實上是可以有提供很大的協助不知道這方面兩個部會將來有沒有好的規劃方式"},{"start":14007.923,"end":14022.856,"text":"就先跟委員報告就是就目前現有的這個部分因為目前在嘉義跟台南的這個地區尤其是文旦落果還有這個養殖餘溫的這個死亡的這個部分那確實在短期之內會造成非常多的這個"},{"start":14024.157,"end":14048.357,"text":"這個必須要去去化這樣的一個過程那所以我們這個部分也跟嘉義縣政府縣市政府還有包括台南市政府這邊達成了這樣的一個溝通跟協調的工作那就是在過去在處理的時候一般來說的話我們的這個公部門的機具是比較少能夠進到這個養殖餘溫裡面去那但是因為這次死亡的這個量真的是確實太多了那所以公所這邊會用這個抓斗車的這個部分然後進到這個果園跟這個餘溫那邊"},{"start":14053,"end":14076.849,"text":"協助這個農民把這些廢棄物清理到這個這個所謂的太空包或者是這個這個這個這個袋子裡面然後再送到化織廠去那減輕這個部分那第二個部分就是剛剛委員詢問有關於這個黑水盲的這個部分那事實上長久以來我們也一直在推動這樣的一個一個目標那所以在這個我們的這個相關的農業的這樣的一個場所裡面我們也有這樣的一個"},{"start":14079.971,"end":14084.324,"text":"不管已經不是實驗性質而是實際在執行的這樣的一個工作以上"},{"start":14085.086,"end":14109.778,"text":"好 非常謝謝我想最後一張是要還是再次感謝我們召委利用今天的這個相關的會議裡面讓我們知道其實中央政府各個機關真的都非常用心的在處理風災造成的這些民眾不管是健康或者是生活上期待能夠透過大家的努力很快能夠克服這樣的困難台灣就是要做輪命啦"},{"start":14110.718,"end":14129.403,"text":"這個都是要大家要互相的互相在努力好謝謝各位我插播一下部長你就全方向全品位就不用條件就前面補助嗎農業是不是這樣"},{"start":14132.136,"end":14149.134,"text":"我們現在持續的一直在公告當中所以說我們的部裡面在第一個時間裡面就針對大規模的區域還有品項目前已經主動的公告了六波就是涵蓋了九個縣市相關品項的這個部分"},{"start":14152.617,"end":14175.375,"text":"那像漁溫的像嘉義跟台南的這個部分那因為漁溫的養殖受到很大的這樣又受到停電的影響所以在漁溫養殖的那個部分我們是全品項免限刊已經在執行了那也跟委員報告那魚我們喔 停電水車沒走我們那魚是缺氧飼的那要全面補償不然那個動會掉啦好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝部長 次長來"},{"start":14181.621,"end":14210.928,"text":"再來請黃國昌質詢謝謝主席,麻煩有請環境部部長、經濟部次長給黃委員好兩位好這一次因為颱風的關係不好意思先"},{"start":14212.967,"end":14237.359,"text":"光電板到處散落對環境所造成的衝擊在各個部會今天的報告當中都有提出來當然環境部好像部長認為對環境沒有什麼影響海委會的書面報告意見跟你不太一樣但我覺得這是一個痛定思痛好好檢討到底出了什麼問題的事情我們一步一步下來看"},{"start":14239.534,"end":14240.996,"text":"2020年屏東訪寮103公頃山坡地變更成光電廠這個有經過環評嗎那時候沒有"},{"start":14254.158,"end":14282.5,"text":"2021年屏東51公頃國家公園山坡地變更成光電廠,有經過環評嗎?保委那個時候,我們是今年1月的時候我們修改環評的法定過去是只有針對濕地然後如果是現在這個情況,這個都要環評你說得很好,這就是我的重點我們現在去檢討過去的政策當初這些地方免環評,你覺得是正確的決定嗎?你覺得是正確的決定嗎?"},{"start":14284.955,"end":14298.241,"text":"山坡地挖成那個樣子 不用環評國家公園挖成那個樣子 不用環評這一次引發軒然大波的欸 這個先停一下好不好"},{"start":14319.466,"end":14320.087,"text":"2025年這次引發軒然大波的高雄大宿區50億公頃山坡地變更成光電廠一樣沒有環評"},{"start":14349.529,"end":14375.925,"text":"為什麼大規模山坡地搞成光電廠通通都不用環評理由很簡單理由很簡單因為我們的政府說免環評免環評造成的結果是什麼LANC30沒有落實石頭保持搞成今天啊這個樣子多久以前再往下一頁"},{"start":14377.321,"end":14401.059,"text":"多久以前之前就不斷有環評委員說這些都應該要納入環評結果搞到2016開始搞搞到2024年光電環評零件零件ZERO通通都不用環評愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹我們的政府大開後門通通都不用環評下一頁"},{"start":14403.72,"end":14428.917,"text":"環評委員四度提出光電開發案要納環評沒有下文在會議當中提出來我看到會議記錄裡面寫的是主席發言說謝謝各位委員提供寶貴的建議然後呢然後就沒有然後了然後就沒有然後了下一頁等到今年等到今年才說要納環評"},{"start":14432.549,"end":14443.405,"text":"來 請教部長會不會覺得這個規定來得太晚了還是來得剛剛好需要開發的都已經開發完了需要開發的都開發完了我們才規定要還平還是這個規定來得剛剛好"},{"start":14445.458,"end":14469.854,"text":"包委員當時是有當時的做法因為我接任才一年當時當然有當時的做法嘛所以我希望你用環境部部長的高度告訴全體國人啊當初這是一個正確的政策決定嗎是嗎所以我修正了啊沒有錯嘛我沒有否定你修正嘛現在我在問的是這個規定會不會來得太晚會不會來得太晚我做我該做的事情"},{"start":14470.154,"end":14497.647,"text":"你做你該做的事情然後前面的錯誤的政策由前面的人必須要承擔責任對不對我沒有要你承擔責任啊你做你該做的事嘛前面沒有做到的前面的人要承擔責任對不對包委員我今天我的結語就是開發各種的再生能源要以環境保護為優先這個是我們的職責非常好下一頁水滅型的光電廠現在要不要實施環評"},{"start":14500.816,"end":14522.424,"text":"這個案例你說屏東那個案例他是屬於沒有沒有我現在是抽象的講水面型的光電廠依照現行規定要不要還平目前還不用但是你覺得不用合理嗎你覺得不用合理嗎這辦法不是你們公布的嗎你說你作為部長你做你該做的事嗎那我現在問題很具體啊水面型的光電廠要不要還平是不是部長該做的事"},{"start":14524.532,"end":14539.082,"text":"這個如果說它是一個濕地它會影響到環境不用講濕地啦濕地本來就納在裡面嘛我現在在問的是水面型的光電廠依照現行的規定要不要環評需要嗎需不需要目前不需要你覺得這個決定是對的嗎"},{"start":14542.897,"end":14562.404,"text":"這個我們會納入考慮納入考慮要考慮多久我們報告裡面我要納入環評總體檢年底會完成所以你說水面型的光電你要納入考慮要考慮多久等到該設的都設完了以後再來考慮是嗎報告委員不會的不會嗎不會的因為過去有環評的時候全部都搞完了嘛只是環評的零件頒布的辦法以後來申請的還是零件"},{"start":14570.987,"end":14582.373,"text":"我看了就很有意思啊為什麼頒布辦法以後來申請的是零件因為要處理的都處理完了嘛都處理完了啦處理完了以後才說要還平來經濟部當初喔有關於張編工業區聯合再生搞這個爛事我從去年就開始執行當初怎麼拿到這個案子的承諾要設4.89公頃的生態熱區"},{"start":14599.984,"end":14607.529,"text":"結果呢 所有承諾的事項全部都違反不可以轉賣套利 也轉賣套利了然後承諾要設生態熱區 現在有設嗎來請教經濟部 有設嗎跟委員說明 若是任何的案場它違反籌設許可 甚至電力值沒有 現在我只問你當初他承諾要設4.89的生態熱區有設嗎"},{"start":14629.814,"end":14648.271,"text":"這個是不是容我回去查一下不過我直接跟你講他沒有射你知不知道他為什麼沒有射你知不知道他為什麼沒有射他承諾要射喔後來沒有射喔你知不知道他為什麼沒有射阿維我目前手中沒有你也不知道嘛我也直接跟你講答案你們經濟不准他不用射的從頭騙到尾從頭騙到尾"},{"start":14655.32,"end":14660.849,"text":"當初違法特例的時候出來幫他背書 出來幫他護航的現在卸任了啦去當獨董啊 賺大錢了叫王美花這件事情國發會後來都承認了"},{"start":14669.676,"end":14692.144,"text":"我們一件事情一件事情來啦今天我要問你的只有生態熱區你兩件事情你都不知道沒關係我在國會負責任的跟你報告有沒有設沒有設為什麼可以不設經濟部準的好市長回去回去請經濟部整理資料當初為什麼可以準這件事情兩個禮拜書面回覆給我可以嗎好謝謝下一頁然後呢高雄的事情"},{"start":14697.865,"end":14725.185,"text":"等到出事了等到出事了經濟部火速撤照要業者不要僥倖很好 再下一頁那實際上面你們廢紙部分的司空局舍來 我問一下目前為止租給他的地收回來沒有現在還沒有為什麼沒有因為我們要求他必須要恢復原狀然後我先問一下啦他這個土地使用沒有違反法令嗎"},{"start":14726.391,"end":14748.473,"text":"他有依照 如果沒有違法法律的話怎麼會被撤照他有沒有被裁罰他有沒有被裁罰我們也有罰他 市政府也有罰他你為什麼罰他 因為他違法嘛這還不簡單 他沒有違法你要怎麼罰他"},{"start":14750.184,"end":14761.615,"text":"我現在問題來啦他違法啦你罰他我OK我肯定雖然是亡羊補牢該做的事還是要做但我現在問題來啦現在是要放水嗎"},{"start":14764.072,"end":14787.378,"text":"經濟部推動綠能從來沒有這個從來沒有放水沒有這個心態沒有這個想法是嗎絕對是依法依規所以現在經濟部能源署那個被起訴的模範公務員很無辜就對了是嗎現在還在細數法院當然嘛所以我就問你們標準是什麼嘛在下一頁來看一下租約陳租源使用土地違反法令要不要終止租約"},{"start":14788.712,"end":14815.762,"text":"他現在還在依違反法令然後主管機關要求他是 來來來 你把租約看清楚啊上面有說我還要給他機會改正不改正我才可以終止租約嗎租約是這樣寫的嗎租約寫說陳租倫使用土地違反法令就要終止租約收回土地了還是打算什麼樣還是打算跟張斌工業區的案子一樣決定要放水放到底"},{"start":14816.795,"end":14827.651,"text":"上面有說要他命改正預期不改正才可以終止租約嗎各位說明啊這個slide第18點啊先看11點好不好請你看一下11點請你看一下11點好不好本契約"},{"start":14832.438,"end":14861.323,"text":"出租的土地有下列情況出租人可以隨時終止租約收回土地寫的還不夠清楚嗎18點的特約事項裡面瓜福二是如今通知改善會改善時出租人得終止租約對啊所以你變成是你認為你在簽契約的時候18點排除11點你的契約解釋是這樣嗎誰告訴你的經濟部的律師告訴你的嗎這是台水公司簽訂的契約一樣啊台水公司不是你們督導的嗎沒有錯"},{"start":14862.389,"end":14885.904,"text":"回去跟台水公司講 回去跟台水公司講這是國家的資產 這是國家的資產這樣胡搞瞎搞 地還不收回來跟當初在放水臟病工業區的時候如出一轍一模一樣 出了這麼嚴重的事了大內宣很會做 很有魄力 罰款 然後呢"},{"start":14886.71,"end":14913.795,"text":"首先跟委員說明啊經濟部包括國營事業在處理相關的規定啊全部都合法合規真的嗎沒有關係啦我下一次有時間的時候張斌工業區經濟部怎麼從頭放水到最後連國發會都看不下去了直接跳出來打臉經濟部啊當初早就應該回收啦這不是我說的這國發會說的再往下看"},{"start":14916.192,"end":14940.7,"text":"2016年行政院太陽光電兩年期推動計畫規劃滯洪池設置太陽光電再往下2017年嘉義縣府招標興溫滯洪池光電案2018年給大家都很熟的雲豹能源的子公司得標這個是2018年喔給大家都很熟的雲豹能源得標再往下"},{"start":14942.201,"end":14945.929,"text":"這個就是今年七月以後造成的狀況清理完了沒有清理完了沒有"},{"start":14950.472,"end":14972.274,"text":"目前99%都清理完了然後接下來打算要怎麼辦繼續讓他再補新的上去嗎不是接下來他必須要相關的這個廢棄物他必須要依規定來處理當然這個都不用講他當然也是要復原啊所以復原就是再補新的供電板上去嗎因為他只要符合原來這個電話法相關的規定我們還是要依法來處理啊"},{"start":14973.137,"end":14999.1,"text":"OK 好 沒有關係啊 我們把話講清楚就好了啦我一直覺得很多媒體很奇怪啊 嘉義智洪池這一次造成這麼大問題的就雲爆啊沒有媒體敢報欸讓我覺得非常的驚訝來 再往下我們現在來看啦 屏東光電福台全毀然後呢 經濟部說啊 沒有沒有 那個光電板早就移除了那大家會有這個質疑其實也不意外"},{"start":15000.034,"end":15012.662,"text":"那公司的負責人自己對外面講的但沒有關係這不是我現在要問的重點你們這個抗風浪測試啊依照你們給他的抗風浪測試啊這個業者的抗風浪測試要到第幾級風你給他錢嘛叫他做實驗嘛那依照我們相關跟他給他補助相關的規範他做這個實驗要可以抗幾級風知道嗎"},{"start":15027.328,"end":15049.301,"text":"他基本上他希望是 希望喔可以用希望的喔 沒有要求喔沒有 這個基本上是一個試驗計畫啦 是他針對我們台灣的這個海域啊是 沒有錯啦 這個我知道 這個我都講過了嘛我講過的東西不用複述啦針對問題回答就好了有沒有要求他要可以抗擊疾風有還是沒有"},{"start":15054.01,"end":15060.376,"text":"這個計畫希望說在這個我們的海域裡面啦可以長期的維持在這個地方是穩定的這個不知道"},{"start":15067.088,"end":15086.445,"text":"那個我們是要求他必須在這個地方測試經過一年的耐風也就是說一年我們台灣都有颱風那我們是要求他經過一年完成測試我們才會做驗收所以我們是用他能夠你覺得現在還有可能驗收嗎來我接下來往下看我為什麼問你這個問題下一頁2023年杜蘇熱颱風來襲的時候那個時候大內宣很會做"},{"start":15095.199,"end":15114.014,"text":"大內修很會做 我們設計浪高可以抗到14米有嗎 有嗎 再往下一頁他自己怎麼宣傳的他宣傳說 這也是我們量身打造的太陽能浮潭金石鎮可以抗17級風可以抗17級風 今天會變成這樣的海洋浩劫"},{"start":15121.301,"end":15142.847,"text":"自吹自擂業者要自吹自擂有不實廣告業者要負責現在我關心的是這個錢到底怎麼給的再下一頁再下一頁再下一頁再下一頁好來我們2023年經濟部門員署給他補助嘛是吧什麼時候給的他這個計畫是112年到115年"},{"start":15148.359,"end":15171.531,"text":"對 什麼時候給的 幾月幾號我們是分批分期沒有關係啊 什麼時候審議通過的112年的7月7月幾號目前他的計畫是從7月1號開始你們什麼時候開審議會的審議會中間他有三次審議會 第一次是從最後什麼時候通過就好了啦"},{"start":15173.035,"end":15185.261,"text":"我上面都幫你列出來 答案都幫你寫出來了7月28號經濟部門委員署審議通過補出1.35億元 我講的對不對是吧 沒有錯吧這是你們公文書上面記載的嘛那奇怪囉7月28號才審議通過7月28號審議通過 追溯到7月1號就開始囉先設建再畫吧那這是廠商的資料啊"},{"start":15202.981,"end":15221.676,"text":"所以呢 7月1號就要開始了7月1號開始 7月28號審議通過你會覺得很奇怪喔我還可以追溯再給你錢喔 在下一頁來看一下喔從他提申請到核准 三個月"},{"start":15223.208,"end":15234.737,"text":"三個月 開一次會 七月二十八號那一次會七月二十八號那一次會 結果廠商申請的時間是從七月一號開始我看了這個貓膩很深啊先設建再劃靶啊光速審查1.35億就這樣丟出去了反正納稅人的錢不是錢啊慶差部 侯北部"},{"start":15250.223,"end":15258.581,"text":"7月1號要開始的計畫7月28號審議通過市長你不會覺得很奇怪還是這個在公家機關在經濟部很正常常常都這樣幹是這樣嗎"},{"start":15262.048,"end":15279.398,"text":"有一些時候因為我們在審查的時候有正式的審查那正式的審查之前還有會前會的審查那有些時候廠商依照會前的時候的審查他認為說這個部分是對他有利的他自己就披露了這個部分五月的時候提申請書 下一頁"},{"start":15285.541,"end":15294.409,"text":"看一下左手邊5月的時候提申請書他計畫期間寫什麼時候7月1號到114年12月31號廠商就直接這樣子寫啦啊你們什麼時候開貨審議通過的112年7月28號啊我時序我完全沒有講錯啊那現在問題來了啊這問題來了啊"},{"start":15312.827,"end":15318.89,"text":"他期間開始的時候你們都還沒開始審議到7月底審議通過 追溯到7月1號開始我看到的叫做先設建再劃靶我看的叫先設建再劃靶丟了1.35億下去結果搞成今天這個樣子 海洋浩劫東西還飄到澎湖那邊去接下來大家等著看"},{"start":15338.206,"end":15365.903,"text":"等著看經濟部怎麼收拾這個爛攤子啊當初這個計畫怎麼過的我調資料你們說這個要廠商同意才可以提供市長廠商有同意嗎這個我們在10天裡面他必須要給我們回覆10天之內 我期待啊這個廠商不是很會做廣告我抗17級風啊去年颱風來都沒事啊大內宣很會做啊"},{"start":15367.895,"end":15388.688,"text":"非常會做啊因為我八股很強啊我八股非常地強啊在這邊跟委員再重申我們在綠能的發展已經建立了連勝平台經濟部從來不會想要包庇所以嘛這個就是按照你說的嘛就是按照你們這個樣子經濟部能源署光電組的組長才會被起訴嘛"},{"start":15392.557,"end":15418.457,"text":"我有說錯嗎這個部分 起訴他細數在法院的審理中那我們認為他過去的一個表現非常的好他是一個非常認真的官員你如果要繼續跟我爭這個 那我就問你一個最直接的問題當初台南的立昂他是符合小二甲哪一個例外我上次問部長部長答不出來 他也不知道是哪一個例外"},{"start":15420.37,"end":15443.222,"text":"能有數的要上來救援也答不出來因為不符合任何例外這個我沒有在跟你討論個案他有沒有故意的問題喔我光請教一個最簡單的法規適用的問題當初就已經有小二甲的禁令了請問是符合哪一款的例外整個經濟部上上下下沒有一個人答得出來然後你今天敢站在這邊講都按照法規在進行"},{"start":15452.093,"end":15461.26,"text":"人民聽得下去喔 人民聽得下去喔這種劣質的廠商 把納稅的錢當什麼把納稅的錢當批款機喔奇怪喔 你不是說都依法 如果都依法幹嘛還要撤銷"},{"start":15475.896,"end":15491.268,"text":"不是 依法釐清了他是不是違反了啊當然就是違法才撤銷嘛那還有42個案子的話他還在所以你的意思是說我們因為有42個案子OK所以當初13個違法過的沒有關係是這樣嗎42個案子他必須要主管機關的這個審認啊這個不是在我們的權責裡面我這樣講好了啦接下來光電板"},{"start":15504.449,"end":15529.575,"text":"對於環境所會造成的衝擊大家非常的關心大家非常的關心經濟部也好環境部也好攜手努力啦過去犯的錯誤就已經造成這樣的結果那要不然要怎麼辦現在就只有認真的追究責任更重要的事情是什麼希望以後這樣的事情不要再發生好 謝謝"},{"start":15532.334,"end":15553.684,"text":"謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長 次長來 接續我朋友的楊耀文質詢謝謝主席 主席我請一下經濟部能源署代理署長 李署長"},{"start":15561.533,"end":15573.986,"text":"委員好 蘇貞昊 蘇貞昊我先問一個問題就是你在農業署待多久了 30年了"},{"start":15576.86,"end":15596.515,"text":"我想要先請問一下就是就你的在推動能源的過程因為能源轉型推動綠能這個是全球幾乎共識就是一致性的方向為什麼在台灣"},{"start":15598.058,"end":15611.205,"text":"惹了這麼多的爭議出來你能不能就你在公職上持平一點講沒有關係因為這個政策方向一定是對的"},{"start":15613.936,"end":15637.73,"text":"假如是有問題的不只台灣是全球都一致在推動你講一下不用太有壓力我覺得這個是全球的趨勢而且包括國內反對說有什麼不好的人他也從來不會說他是反對綠能通常他是認為就是說這個綠能的位置不對不適當"},{"start":15639.611,"end":15658.791,"text":"那我想這跟台灣的人口稠密是有關係的在國外它常常可以在一些比較空曠的地方附近的居民比較少所以它這樣的問題會比較少那台灣因為人口稠密所以我們在審核的時候像太陽光電我們推動的時候我們就要求就是說"},{"start":15659.472,"end":15686.979,"text":"他一定要以農業為主然後光電為輔我們用共生的方式來不影響原來土地的利用那所以我們會特別朝這一方面那另外一方面在台灣的話我們特別推動屋頂屋頂型的在台灣特別多那因為屋頂型的對環境生態影響相對是小的那在國外比較少屋頂型大部分都是大片的土地做地面型可是相對我們在台灣地面型是"},{"start":15688.539,"end":15711.645,"text":"目前發展的是比屋頂型的要慢地面型的規模經濟比較符合經濟效用對 但如果他的案場大會有經濟規模剛剛講到人口稠密我覺得可能影響比較大的不是太陽光板可能是反而是風力發電"},{"start":15713.806,"end":15727.131,"text":"是目前我們的風力發電主要的是做離岸的那陸域的我們已經就剛才講人口層面慢慢漸居於飽和了那我們沒有特別再去獎勵或是推動反對的聲音也大啦這個就還蠻可惜的啦所以"},{"start":15734.853,"end":15758.208,"text":"署長的意見就是覺得是因為人口稠密所以造成我們在推動上先天上就比較有一定的困難就是說跟居民的溝通就很重要所以我們現在修改過去是要施工前才要開這個說明會我們現在是說你在核准之前那麼就要先開"},{"start":15759.369,"end":15782.104,"text":"公開說明會讓附近的居民能夠了解那核准以後你要再開公開說明會讓附近的民眾知道你核准這個程序當然是一定要啦我是覺得比較可惜啦就是一個能源轉型可以減少空污減少很多環境的迫害的一個"},{"start":15784.185,"end":15806.13,"text":"方向在台灣好像一直有爭議出來所以你也剛好在這邊服務30年所以就請教你一下我問幾個問題署長審計部在112年度審計報告中指出政府為了要落實經濟循環利用"},{"start":15808.431,"end":15820.703,"text":"向太陽光電的業者收取模組的回收費用但是報告指出經濟部能源署就是"},{"start":15822.014,"end":15842.603,"text":"有估計說我這個數據是在112年審計報告裡面的110年到112年大概還有沒有繳納的金額有接近4億你們主要的原因審計報告也有指出是行政疏失那你們現在這4億元"},{"start":15847.19,"end":15864.564,"text":"吹腳的情況怎麼樣我們會我們有已經跟持續跟他吹腳那如果他沒有腳的話那我們現在修正法令我們就會停止他的售電就不讓他賣電了那另外一方面我們對一個機制也做了一個檢討因為剛才"},{"start":15865.845,"end":15891.28,"text":"事實上前幾位委員也一直問到就是說我們目前就是要分十年來繳交那我們現在也已經在預告修改這個制度了他必須要在商轉的第一年就要把所有的錢都繳齊我知道我是說之前的嘛那署長你剛才說假如說他沒有繳納你們就要停止售店那我覺得這個行政手段"},{"start":15893.073,"end":15913.085,"text":"有一點問題就是你們沒有辦法對公司去做追款嗎因為我們最主要設置就是要讓他綠能發電要讓他受電你應該是讓他受電然後才從受電的所得拿到錢"},{"start":15914.326,"end":15931.343,"text":"你們現在講說手段是停止售電我覺得是有問題的報告兩個部分一個就是說剛才問到就是說我們現在收取的金錢剛才講112年的金錢那我們大概催收了之後目前大概90%已經繳交了但是還有6千萬左右"},{"start":15933.905,"end":15947.743,"text":"對還有8%的這個金額沒有繳交那我會繼續跟他催收那另外他如果還沒有催收的話那我們給他期限是到今年的8月12他如果還沒有繳我們就會移送行政執行"},{"start":15948.624,"end":15966.935,"text":"那另外就是說剛才的這種制度的調整那我們現在正在預告我剛剛在講的是說你們的行政手段裡面行政措施裡面假如是以停止售電那我覺得是多方不利你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":15967.575,"end":15985.877,"text":"我了解其實我們原來最早的想法因為他售電台電要付他電費就直接從台電付他的電費裡面扣掉了但是後來法律我們看到法律說我們不能這樣子做除非有法律的規定要不然那是他要收的錢政府不能扣"},{"start":15986.618,"end":16013.188,"text":"那所以我們現在的方法另外就是說停止台電跟他購電這樣我們就不用追繳可是這個就比較荒謬啦因為他是回收機組的錢嘛你去停止他受電我們本來就是設置太陽能光板就是要發電嘛那他停止受電他就沒有發電嘛我覺得應該是看能不能跟還沒有繳的業者去做"},{"start":16016.39,"end":16030.524,"text":"協調或是做一個三方的和解契約懂我意思嗎我覺得這個在法律上是可以做處理的"},{"start":16031.605,"end":16056.705,"text":"停止售電本席覺得是比較不好的因為我們當時是覺得停止售電對他來講是很重的有壓力啦對他來講有壓力啦可是就是怪啦所以你們回去跟法治人員看看有沒有辦法讓他售電然後三方"},{"start":16057.445,"end":16083.496,"text":"打成一個和解契約由台電來支付給國庫懂我意思齁了解就從台電那邊把他拖下來我覺得我們在發展綠能的過程已經那麼多爭議了那麼多困難了他設置了反而要去禁止他售電這個我覺得不行啦好不好"},{"start":16094.18,"end":16108.325,"text":"台南有一個招廢紙容許使用的農電共生的暗場我直接問 假如說暗場暗場廢紙了以後"},{"start":16113.752,"end":16127.337,"text":"太陽能光板沒有移除暗場的部分是由經濟部來負責太陽能光板的處理是環境部對不對暗場的復原你們現在有沒有建立一定的規範"},{"start":16129.997,"end":16148.508,"text":"暗場的復原就要看他原來的土地的使用分區能不能做如果他是因為他當時的使用分區是特別容許太陽光電現在沒有做太陽光電他就要恢復原狀了他就要恢復原狀那他只要沒有恢復原狀你們有沒有一定的"},{"start":16151.712,"end":16172.597,"text":"就是他就會違反土地分區使用的管制的規定那就會用土地分區使用管制規定的土地法來處罰他就是用土地分區管制相關法律來處罰所以暗場的復原你們是不用另外建立"},{"start":16174.847,"end":16187.1,"text":"我們就是依照現在法律的規定它的土地使用分區可以使用的狀況來做處理好我最後還是講一下就是全球是在推動能不能轉型"},{"start":16189.02,"end":16206.896,"text":"綠能絕對是首要的選擇希望好的政策我們可以透過溝通不管是跟民眾跟在野黨能夠透過溝通讓好的能源政策可以落實"},{"start":16208.177,"end":16229.748,"text":"不要好像現在講到台灣很可惜就是有一部分是事實有一部分是宣傳炒作抹黑造成好像大家對綠能都怕怕的這個還蠻可惜的好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝顏委員 謝謝副署長來 接著我們請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":16241.072,"end":16244.459,"text":"好謝謝主席有先請經濟部次長還有能源署長"},{"start":16252.113,"end":16271.96,"text":"我也好好謝謝兩位我們現在在這邊吹冷氣我昨天晚上看到網路上很多社群朋友在問說現在是不是台灣都沒有用核電了說此時此刻此刻對嗎我講的是對的嗎沒有沒有了嗎所以我們現在有各式各樣的電源的能源的來源可不可以說一下我們現在有哪些電力能源的來源"},{"start":16272.928,"end":16291.474,"text":"我們現在有燃氣機組燃煤機組還有再生能源機組再生能源裡面光電是一個重要的一個部分大概佔了七成左右好那當然我們也有離岸風電是近幾年來我們積極的發展地熱跟其他的新興的這個綠能"},{"start":16293.669,"end":16313.81,"text":"也就是這些樣態確實提供了國人日常生活的用電那為什麼要問這個因為最近非常多關於能源的謠言我認為有需要透過公開質詢跟您討論我也想要讓我們支持我們的選民或者是大家在意的聲音可以被聽見第一個其實全世界大企業為了滿足淨零排放的目標都需要綠電"},{"start":16314.631,"end":16344.12,"text":"而這個綠電你不可能讓大企業自己去產生所以我們需要政府的資源幫忙跟政府的政策的協助對不對從政策面跟資源面那甚至呢台積電他們甚至希望在2040年可以達標使用百分百的再生能源目前我的論述是對的嗎完全正確我們是一個出國導向的國家很多的廠商他的產品出產到國外他需要綠電因為他需要低碳"},{"start":16345.06,"end":16365.795,"text":"那这个绿电其实很多厂商都在担心进度太慢有公开论述的包含友达电视长彭双浪还有国际半导体产业协会台湾区总裁曹世伦其实他们都提过希望政府加大加快绿电的发展如果来看政治层面其实在去年总统大选的时候三党候选的"},{"start":16366.235,"end":16393.224,"text":"政策有一個共同點就那麼一個就是綠電要提高到三成左右在2030年不管是侯友宜還有柯文哲還有賴清德總統都是一模一樣的也就是發展綠電應該是所有人的共識好那這個共識可能在不同的政治風向底下有了不同的論述跟產生了不同的謠言所以我想要跟您討論所以才會請您上來來下一張"},{"start":16394.824,"end":16420.726,"text":"这个是在台风过后第一时间出现的谣言那我们办公室非常负责任的想要寻求相关的专家学者的意见跟想要确定现场的状况那目前我们整理出来的资料是这样我认为一我们现在知道的资料是这个是离岸光电试验计划的实验浮台而且其实不是只有台湾全世界美国中国日本韩国荷兰都有发展离岸光电那台湾现在在进行实验中"},{"start":16421.346,"end":16448.889,"text":"那這個業者我們現在知道的相關新聞的訊息是說在颱風之前他們把上面的光電板先移除那伏台本來也是要全面回收可是來不及清完颱風就來了所以我想要請教次長在我這個黑色的照片當中的這個紅色框框這個是所謂的伏台並不是光電板對不對他是一個腳踏板並不是光電板光電板在丹納斯颱風來臨之前都已經拆除了"},{"start":16449.668,"end":16472.032,"text":"腳踏板的功能跟目的是什麼 可以幫我們解釋一下平常維修的時候或是巡檢的時候 人力需要再依照腳踏板來上面來進行行走好 那因為這個是新的科技 我認為不是一般人懂那我們辦公室做了研究 我們發現它的材質對於人體跟環境應該沒有安全的疑慮 這邊可不可以請你們說明一下"},{"start":16472.372,"end":16490.461,"text":"它是一個相對穩定的,它是HDPE事實上跟很多的,包括我們的膠滑那些材質是類似的只不過它的強度是比較高一點所謂強度是比較高,它的耐用強度是嗎?是那它會不會釋出有害物質?"},{"start":16491.542,"end":16518.418,"text":"他在環境中是相對的比較穩定的相對比較穩定嘛為什麼這麼說因為等一下我來跟你說因為這個事情後續有另外的關於死案的謠言我們等一下一起來說另外還有一個謠言其實也是在這一次風災的時候我個人感到非常的遺憾大家看到這張照片滿是水好像已經淹水淹得不得了了可是我們把這個照片內容仔細來看這個圖片下面自己寫AI生成然後瓜胡非當事人"},{"start":16519.451,"end":16535.138,"text":"意思是什麼就是當大家每天在手機上快速的滑過很多訊息的時候其實我們已經被這個照片給騙了雖然這個編輯台非常負責的寫上AI生成但是大家的閱聽習慣當中其實已經被照片給騙了我可以這麼說嗎"},{"start":16536.418,"end":16559.219,"text":"是的好那為什麼我要特別拿這張照片除了剛剛那個腳踏板的謠言之外其實光電這個謠言也一再的在民間流傳那我認為這對於我們所謂要發展綠能這件事情其實傷害非常大可是明明各個政黨候選人在總統選舉的時候又說綠電是大家唯一的共識所以我這邊可不可以請您說一下我認為一一這造成恐慌但明明我們"},{"start":16560.02,"end":16560.18,"text":"好 是的"},{"start":16586.648,"end":16605.78,"text":"但那是颱風而且高雄市政府去巡檢了相當多次那至於業者原本我們所看見的違反水土保持計畫的部分市政府跟經濟部也已經廢止他的許可對嗎也就是我們的行政措施都做了但是在颱風期間卻用高雄這個案子製造這個謠言那你們怎麼看"},{"start":16607.66,"end":16636.077,"text":"跟委員說明我們在歷次對天然災害或是特定的事件的處理中我們發現在現場的搶救人員或是在維持社會的秩序裡面這些的虛假的這個訊息徒增社會的恐慌跟困擾甚至還影響到相關的救災人員或是包括我們國營事業跟能源組我們要花相當多的時間去來做這些的澄清的新聞"},{"start":16637.8,"end":16641.15,"text":"這個事實上也無助於救災更無助於我們的綠能的發展"},{"start":16642.489,"end":16666.737,"text":"我希望啦 當然每次只要有人講一個謠言我們就要闢謠一百次其實真的非常非常辛苦我不確定你們的梅山飛蛾有沒有被刪掉但是我真的認為我們平常要多做社會溝通我們要回過來檢討你們我只是提醒說確實像這樣子一張謠言的圖搭手機一滑就看過去我不知道現場有多少人是因為今天看了我告訴大家這是AI生成你才發現它是AI生成"},{"start":16667.877,"end":16680.232,"text":"搞不好前一陣子颱風的時候大家手機都有滑到這個照片然後你們也都以為是真的但因為我們必須要負責任的問責所以我們做了這個事情我當然也希望鼓勵你們後續我們可以做社會溝通更多好不好好來下一個問題一樣謠言又來了"},{"start":16683.564,"end":16706.613,"text":"別買中南部的養殖魚恐吃下光電板的毒然後呢我們努力追查之後發現我們告訴想要告訴大家細菁太陽能板不會毒害養殖魚這個部分你們可不可以說說看因為當時就很多包含我最近去菜市場也聽到很多人說最近魚不能買所以其實賣魚賣海鮮的這陣子也很慘這樣那相關的謠言你們可不可以說明一下"},{"start":16707.898,"end":16720.024,"text":"第一個我們設置在水庫的這個所謂的水面型的太陽能光墊設置之後我們定期的去做水質的檢測這些水質都是符合飲用相關的數字是有的嗎你們做檢測的報告對不對"},{"start":16722.698,"end":16738.669,"text":"甚至有研究單位去把這些太陽能的電板破碎了之後再浸泡在純水裡面相當的時日的時候事實上它這個水質的影響甚至是不會影響的所以第三個部分的話"},{"start":16740.584,"end":16765.223,"text":"這個所謂的漁電共生或是這個養殖的漁業或是我們這一次丹納斯颱風所發生的大家常常看到新聞那個地方的這個是一個滯洪池它不是一個養殖的漁園那這個新聞出來的話事實上對於我們的漁民會有相當大的一個衝擊因為它是一個錯假的一個訊息"},{"start":16768.135,"end":16796.333,"text":"還有一個就是我們針對有四個地方其中有一個是漁民漁店共生的那其實我們針對十個重金屬有六個重金屬是零檢出那其實其他的都在安全標準以內所以目前我可以說從我這個是禮拜一兩的因為已經有些已經浸泡了大概一個禮拜了所以目前來看的話是沒有問題的這個你們都有在公開的你們的部會的網站上說明嗎相關的新聞稿我認為要多做社會溝通好"},{"start":16796.713,"end":16808.279,"text":"好不然大家真的很恐懼尤其你剛說還傷害到那些販賣漁產品的人還有包含很多漁民好來那經濟部請回謝謝好接下來我想跟環境部跟農業部討論關於光電設置環評加嚴因為當有非常多錯假訊息跟謠言的時候不斷詆毀能源政策的時候"},{"start":16815.362,"end":16837.513,"text":"大家對於光電的理解還有要求就會更嚴格那當時呢原本在我們原本的環境部只有在設計在重要濕地設置光電的時候需要環評那感謝環境部你們今年1月修法加嚴以上我所列這些都說需要環評對不對如果要設置光電的話沒錯而且我們比日本嚴格日本散播地是40MW然後這個30公頃以上"},{"start":16840.535,"end":16861.221,"text":"那我們現在是兩萬嘛對不對然後公有造林地特定農業區自然保護區重要濕地野生動物重要棲息環境野生動物保護區跟國家公園以上都是需要的那我不確定會不會有很多專家學者希望未來有機會再納入更多環境敏感區位那我就簡單提出你們再請你們待會去研議好不好"},{"start":16863.622,"end":16875.427,"text":"當然我覺得這個進一步已經很重要了讓國人更安心我們可以保障我們的國土長遠持續健康的發展這個部分謝謝你們但是如果未來後續有更多環境學者專家認為台灣還有更多環境敏感區域"},{"start":16879.608,"end":16881.109,"text":"也之后再请你们纳入演绎"},{"start":16909.308,"end":16928.563,"text":"是好你可不可以說明一下事實上這個我們對於這個儲能設備的這個補助是從這個疫後的這個經費裡面來支持那我們目前總共有五千多萬的這樣的經費支援了十八個場所來進行這個養殖漁業的這樣的儲能設備那確實在這一次裡面發揮了很好的效果"},{"start":16928.843,"end":16957.577,"text":"那經由這次的風災我們也體認到了就是養殖漁業他可能需要更強的這樣的電力韌性來面對這樣的問題所以針對未來這個儲能的設備的部分我們漁業署這邊會來做一個全面的這樣的一個檢討那漁業署這邊應該可以透過各個縣市政府有漁業養殖的部分你剛剛說五千多萬十八個嘛可是我認為應該可以更全面如果這一次確實有受到一個好的效果因為確實如果一旦停電所有那些漁溫的魚就沒有辦法活下來這也非常非常的可惜"},{"start":16958.337,"end":16966.744,"text":"好 那拜託這個後續你們擴大辦理的部分再跟我們辦公室討論相關進度好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝兩位好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長 次長來 接續我們請劉建國召委諮詢好 謝謝主席 請部長 請次長 請約束我接續剛才陳委員的這個詮詢 基本上"},{"start":16987.658,"end":17016.281,"text":"不管是電力共生與電力共生我昨天才邀請了三個日本的朋友一個是來到台灣設立葛拉設立換電的總經理歐里桑另外一個是安斯巴的總裁他們都到台灣來投資然後他們對台灣的這些漁產基本上非常的喜歡也重視然後把他帶到台灣釣結果口服那一場我想我要講副長應該很清楚"},{"start":17018.286,"end":17044.541,"text":"這個老闆很驕傲跟他講說其實有很多的台灣的養殖過程裡面其實是日本的技術但是我們到真正養殖的地方那個餘溫的上面有這個太陽光電板這是老闆直接主動講出來還有有設這個太陽光電板台灣的育成率更穩定更安全那我就必須要這麼講這是餘領"},{"start":17047.407,"end":17056.403,"text":"他本身也跟很多漁民來棄養然後也有漁電共生、電魚共生當大家一直在污衊這種綠能燙光電的過程裡面"},{"start":17058.991,"end":17073.466,"text":"我真的是要特別拜託環境部部長還有我們經濟部林次長還有漁業署甚至包括農政單位應該第一時間要站出來甚至連台積電都要邀來台積電買了多少綠電?夠嗎?夠嗎?所以當國家政策往這方向在走"},{"start":17080.433,"end":17098.853,"text":"然後相關的漁民有受益的情況之下那怎麼一個政策的導引然後實際上的實質狀況大家有這樣的感受是正向的時候怎麼好像我們都很靦腆的不敢去對外去講清楚"},{"start":17099.614,"end":17128.403,"text":"我覺得這不對啦我希望這個部分我是不是特決在這邊做一個具體的這樣一個要求啦好不好好 次長跟副長先請回副長就留下了那請那署長上來啦臨時請回 臨時請回我剛剛也因為聽到前面幾位委員的這樣一個吹詢裡面很清楚他能關鍵到底會不會造成這一個損害之後會不會造成這一個"},{"start":17130.516,"end":17153.282,"text":"會不會有害的物質去沉澱到大海去沉澱到什麼地方去然後這是大家外界的疑慮那我聽部長還有聽次長的講話有做過相關的一些這樣的一個抽檢嘛然後經過幾天之後來做一個處理看那個水質基本上都還是在標準內嘛都標準內但是我應該這麼講就是說當台灣從去年來了三個颱風"},{"start":17157.463,"end":17179.576,"text":"那現在今年度來的第一個颱風聽說等一下又這幾天又會有第二個颱風到底會來幾個颱風在極端氣候不穩定的這樣的一個氣候的一個狀態散之下我們現在看到的當然有一些都符合標準的數據但是當這樣的經常性的情況一直在發生的時候會不會"},{"start":17182.974,"end":17192.081,"text":"卻有意外還是沒有不可抗力的因素的情況之下導致有問題的產生這個大家必須要講清楚"},{"start":17193.952,"end":17211.854,"text":"報告委員其實基本上太陽光電板它本身是無害的但是它如果變成廢棄物的時候就變成事業廢棄物那事業廢棄物它絕對不能堆在旁邊然後它一定要把它清除掉用事業廢棄物那它其實可以循環去化的那從它本身來說的話是無害的"},{"start":17211.954,"end":17235.687,"text":"但是它其實你可以想說任何一個廢棄物丟到一個環境裡面反走過必留下痕跡所以我們一定要把它清除一定會有一點些微的影響但是目前來看的話包含了這個經濟部有做我們有做其實目前對環境立即的影響是比較低的但是如果長期來看的話我們還是不希望有這樣的東西跟我們的大自然裡面廢棄的在那個地方存在的"},{"start":17236.127,"end":17251.34,"text":"好 一定會有影響嘛 對不對對 些微的影響它還是叫做影響嘛 對不對但累積到一定程度的情況之下那就不是些微的影響了是可能各地可能很多地方處理不善就好比說去化處理不當的情況之下"},{"start":17251.92,"end":17262.865,"text":"可能那個影響就不叫做些微的影響了會不會這樣發生嘛對不對我們現在預估這種情境會不會產生嘛我在今年的4月28號的時候在追當時106年運線的一個倉庫嘛被發現儲存將近4000桶50加侖的太陽光電板的這是切削役嘛那時候署長部長都有答覆我那當然答覆也不是很完整後來有在透過公文在跟我做答覆應該也跟委員會都有報告過"},{"start":17280.474,"end":17306.344,"text":"這個產業從103年開始為法堆置肺液造成惡臭甚至於捅破還有切消與洩漏、污染我不只多次追蹤還希望環保署來正視這個問題所以政府逐漸的開始完備整個太陽能板的製作使用以及回收的規範例如你們有訂定太陽能光電發電設備模組回收會用收支保管機運用作為要點對不對"},{"start":17307.364,"end":17316.715,"text":"好 那規定每張太陽能板出產後10年內分10年內要繳納回收費嘛沒有錯嗎好 OK好 這個是對安廠這個是對安廠沒有錯嗎那對一般家屋"},{"start":17328.866,"end":17339.414,"text":"跟我們報告 那目前在我們如果是家戶呢 他的屋頂有時候他是由我們的這個案場他去裝設那這樣的話呢 他的親屬處理呢 還是還是由這個案場要去負責那你只是回答我一小部分嘛就是案場去裝設的 裝在家戶所以他會自己處理嘛因為他有繳了10年這個處理的費用 對不對好 如果不是案場呢"},{"start":17356.709,"end":17382.218,"text":"那有一些他不是在案場少數可能是家戶你講少數你要負責任講包委員他只要裝的在申請核准的時候呢他每k瓦就要繳一千元不管他是裝在哪裡只要跟台電裝了這個系統跟台電並聯發電了那他就要受這個規範好署長你既然上來那你就講清楚一點那一般的案場就是說到時候要回收的時候因為有繳這些回收的用"},{"start":17382.858,"end":17398.851,"text":"會跟特定的回收業者來做這樣的一個回收程序嘛對不對那目前屋頂的小暗場其實也不是住家設的都是那個廠商他去包這個屋頂來設的當然是廠商啊當然不可能是自己去設碳纓電板這個我們很清楚嘛對好但是一般家戶設的這個暗場還是廠家去設的碳纓電板萬一就像颱風這個狀況發生了然後損害了那誰來處理"},{"start":17410.62,"end":17427.392,"text":"就是那個設置的廠商設置廠商主動來請回收廠商去處理我是這個家戶使用太陽能管電板我就直接聯絡這個廠商那這個廠商就找回收業者來做處理是這樣嗎是的因為那個太陽能板就是那個廠商的"},{"start":17428.686,"end":17455.126,"text":"你講錯了 我現在在講很清楚要跟你討論前端的事情我們就不再贅述 現在講後端的處置如果家戶的太陽能關電板可以這麼處理我們那署長回答我都不是這樣 怎麼跟你南園北側我們跟能源署的那個做法還有是一樣的你上次講的跟這次講的原本就不太有一樣"},{"start":17456.041,"end":17480.972,"text":"怎麼會有一樣部長聽了都在笑了那時候你剛才講說清潔隊可以去收就是說可能有一些民眾他自己會上網買自己就裝一個自己在用那我們這次其實風災有看到的確有一兩片目前我們統計到就一兩片是民眾自己拿出來說給清潔隊又清潔隊來收那因為量很少所以他給清潔隊之後那我們就會來處理"},{"start":17482.455,"end":17509.697,"text":"我們是跟經濟隊員說,如果你有收到,那我們後端處理的管道是沒有問題的,你就放在你的暫存場裡面,後端的處理費用會來支付如果你有收到,那現在是因為風災,有一兩片,有大概是三片,是環保局這邊有收到的李代署長你聽清楚嘛,你聽清楚嘛對不對,到底是誰收,講清楚"},{"start":17511.423,"end":17526.859,"text":"我現在在講一個是大案場、中案場、小案場一個是家戶型的攤子、光碟板誰裝的已經不是重點了對不對部長講說自己去買的一兩片人家老大去看到一兩片我都沒看到大家你求責你還要美國時間去看到這兩片自己找去買沒關係"},{"start":17529.611,"end":17546.873,"text":"是怎麼處理是要一次規定嘛你的要點要全部通通要適用才對嘛但是現在講法李署長你的講法跟我們賴署長講法就是不一樣就是不一樣啊其實是就是不一樣啦怎麼會一樣處理後端我們再處理前端"},{"start":17547.353,"end":17566.215,"text":"也就是說他在設置的時候他都是要繳每KY一千元的後製的處理費這個責任是在這個裝置的廠商也就是他的所有錢源剛才講後端是說他如果被摧壞了那那個人那個民眾如果就把他拿去這個回收了"},{"start":17567.777,"end":17593.316,"text":"就是他拿去回收那這時候我們的回收隊會回收但是回收回去他們會集中的去把它處理但是這個責任並沒有說廠商就沒有責任或是不回收他只是在執行的實務有的時候就在燕道處訂啊就拿下來啊他就拿蛋掉啊這時候我們環保機關不會說我不收我不收他會把它收回去再另外做處理"},{"start":17594.036,"end":17598.08,"text":"但是那一個責任其實是那一個所有權人、廠商的責任所以是頭跟尾啦你剛才,你自己覺得,你說你有跟政府有衝突嗎?我最少聽到這樣"},{"start":17609.194,"end":17623.186,"text":"他在廠商下判的嘛對不對對叫你來說廠商來修但是應該是廠商的責任是他的東西嘛他為什麼要自己提供回修你剛才說他自己提供回修嘛不然你要說環保局聽我來修嘛到底是要自己提供回修還是環保局來回修嘛還是處理的回修回修是他正式的這間公司要派人來回修嘛"},{"start":17636.237,"end":17637.438,"text":"我們一般來講都是屬於藥油業者他為的收入 一般是這樣子"},{"start":17660.234,"end":17668.902,"text":"那因為這次是風災所以我們特地有跟這個環保局來通知緊急情況請地方公所清潔環保局去處理這個不是常態我現在跟你講的是一個常態的狀況嘛你到底怎麼處理啊"},{"start":17676.872,"end":17695.966,"text":"常態是要有業者因為當時那一千塊也是業者繳的所以他要去回收去做處理那是業者的責任但是這次因為風災有的他住在那裡就落下去了於是他就把他拿去丟掉了這個時候是後面的環保機關也會把他拿去回收為什麼這個屋主因為颱風把他的碳冷關電板摧落了"},{"start":17702.453,"end":17716.814,"text":"這個屋主怎麼會有那個觀念跟作為就把他的貪婪觀念板拿去丟掉他怎麼不會通知跟他裝設貪婪板的業者跟他講說我這裡落地 讓人家落沙地 像柏中說的你要派人來給我回收正常他這樣子也可以啦齁"},{"start":17717.635,"end":17743.788,"text":"一個也可以整個是他拿去丟掉也可以然後他通知裝設他能的業者來回收也可以你怎麼會有兩個也可以他的責任是在這個安裝廠商的身上要拿去丟但是如果這一個住戶他直接就壞了他把他拿去丟後面是說他也會收來處理但是那個一千元每k瓦的一千元的費用是這個廠商他已經繳進去了現在感覺是說先把那塊盤子丟掉啦"},{"start":17746.989,"end":17773.089,"text":"照你來講啦 那個住戶沒有去做 廠商就要做這件事甲本要斷掉嘛 它到底是斷掉 還是要拿去回收就回收嘛 沒你這講得清楚勒 斷掉是當作廢棄物勒 啊廢棄物就當然 公所情結對方不叫要給它修啊 是是那叫做斷掉啊 正常情況下是它要拿去修啊 啊廢修就沒工啊 啊你現在到底你要給中國北施工加厚的太陽能光電板 繞一塊 拍兩塊 拍五塊"},{"start":17774.39,"end":17795.906,"text":"到底是處處可以自己去探調 或是要通知政協合作來做回收的動作你把它說清楚啊 你這樣說叫做也可以 我都聽不懂就對了我相信在座所有的官員都是我的同仁 看聽得懂嗎責任在那個廠商是廠商要去負責回收"},{"start":17796.806,"end":17811.409,"text":"很清楚喔那為什麼裝設被裝設他能加護的這個屋主他可以拿去丟掉為什麼賴署長還跟我講他會去可以溝通地方環保局跟清潔隊還是要去載"},{"start":17813.279,"end":17834.103,"text":"那個委員可能是因為這個這個制度從108年開始就過了十幾年前以前還有那個自己去買的都有啊現在有的還有啊都沒有在我們的列管裡面部長你不能一直跟我講說自己去買啦你自己去買是看到一兩塊而已你現在跟我講從108年到現在自己去買有多少比例那我們現在來來來來來來農業署你現在給我個數據來"},{"start":17837.584,"end":17848.633,"text":"所有的有暗藏的到底目前在台灣裝修的面積是數量是多少家戶的又是多少來部長自己講的一直講自己去買的自己去買的比例又佔多少統計數字馬上公開啊然後你從暗藏怎麼處理家戶你怎麼處理你自己去買又怎麼處理你跟全國民眾講清楚啊"},{"start":17860.327,"end":17882.199,"text":"是 那個我們現在總共全國的太陽光電的安裝量是14.7GW那除了地面型以外 剛才講的其實是屋頂型的屋頂型大概有8.多GW的裝置 將近9的裝置容量那當然這個是Total的容量那剛才部長講的是 我們有一些是很早期因為太陽光電大概已經推動超過十幾年"},{"start":17883.94,"end":17911.536,"text":"那些可能在早期的並沒有做特別的登記管理或是要繳交回收費用會有那樣的那我們這個回收制度訂了以後就所有新設的都有這個裝置的廠商他要繳交相關的費用那他也要負起回收的責任一個政策已經執行10多年了那應該統一的一個規範回收的作業要點基本上不管你是什麼廠"},{"start":17912.901,"end":17921.647,"text":"不管你大小廠啦不管你自己選購的啦不管你自己裝設的啦我想都要一致處理的標準啦那如果是因地制宜"},{"start":17922.745,"end":17945.615,"text":"還是說怎樣的一個情況那或許就另外有所規範嘛對不對有所處置的方式嘛那我現在聽你講坦白講已經超過時間了我聽你講到目前為止就是沒有一致性啊這不對啊當然在推動綠能推動光電的過程裡面連這一個整個回收都還沒有辦法一致性的處理你對國人是沒有辦法交代的啦"},{"start":17946.708,"end":17957.255,"text":"你這個會被挑戰啦台灣又清漲了這麼多颱風啦掉下來之後 這是秋霜要去恢修的這是他自己買的 我不相信你有吃得出寶釘這樣搬啦你是不是要搬 怎麼可以這樣搬啊那自己買的不是很多 你15年以前就對了嘛差不多都要脫太掉了嘛都要換 要更新了嘛你站在工電的 中央機關裡面你對這些15億當前的 到現在還沒換到現在還沒更新的 你要做處理嘛"},{"start":17977.162,"end":17980.643,"text":"你要去調查嗎?你要去盤查嗎?你要去把制度定好嗎?我們這邊來檢討啦因為我們現在未來那個修廢清法這個部分的這個管理會更統一啦這個我們來我們雄安署跟能源署來協調好一個月內可以吧把統一標準訂立出來部長我要求一個月還算給你們很寬裕的時間"},{"start":18005.219,"end":18017.037,"text":"一下又要另外一個颱風來像去年連續三個你怎麼去因應你後面昨天昨天的報導不曉得你自己講的加以台南因這次颱風損害的太陽光電板約兩千多噸"},{"start":18018.626,"end":18039.361,"text":"2000多噸的,你說會在一個月內處理完成,對不對?一個多月啦,去化啦,這個把被棄物壞掉的收集,然後送到去化回收的這個廠,那個廠要一個半月左右你如果要說一個多月,是一個月一天還是一個月三十?一個半月啦,要一個半月啦,目前初估啦"},{"start":18040.799,"end":18068.257,"text":"我們不要再發生過去像灰輪胎的事件了那時候你還沒有來當部長你應該知道嘛也灰灰洋洋的對不對那你到時候也回收啊也都可以處理啊後來發生什麼事情大家都很清楚還有悶燒的還有大火整個燒到面目全灰的然後回收場沒辦法收然後進到這個氣球回收場然後最後堆置在田間堆置在大馬路邊台灣好像是灰輪胎國家"},{"start":18069.704,"end":18085.694,"text":"你不要到時候台灣變成一個會太陽能光電板的國家那能源署跟環境部來講就真的是會會被民眾很大的這樣一個挑戰因為現在就兩千多噸了你如果再來一次你又多給幾噸"},{"start":18087.236,"end":18114.104,"text":"真的都可以處理完嗎然後你們自己講說你們自己講說預估啦齁203你們環境部是估2032年他能關電板自然老舊鈦換的匯氣量可能會達到一年一萬噸以上是這你們抓出來的東西嗎五萬噸啦要五萬噸喔五萬噸以上嗎對對對啊我們現在量的人大概一個月大概四千多噸啦那未來應該會再提升好所以部長會把握"},{"start":18115.753,"end":18144.391,"text":"目前照這個現在的因為還有很多的業者想做這塊是在申請那因為這個太陽光電板我們希望可以全循環我們我們發生過會這個會計輪胎企劃的問題很嚴重的影響到台灣很多地方的環境是我們過去也處理過農業會農氣的問題一下子廠家廠家可以做一下廠家做的不符合規定一下子一下子一下子是多久半年一年完全沒辦法收"},{"start":18145.854,"end":18169.059,"text":"你不要到時候台灣觀念板的去化跟回收又出現這些問題委員這個我上禮拜六有去特別去看這些廠商啦所以我們會持續的在瞭解然後也在督促他們啦好 謝謝這一個月內啦 好不好那就抱歉啦 好不好 請等我林次 林次到你後來不要亂走經濟部林次長"},{"start":18171.623,"end":18186.994,"text":"賴市長,賴市長,賴市長,對不起喔,我把想到賴署長,我一直叫你來,叫你來,我都跟他一樣,不好意思,不好意思,這,這,這出錯啦,我們在國安那邊這樣,看到你才去緊張喔,對啊,台灣能推動喔,這個的過程裡面,我想很多知識節節的事情,剛剛你也聽到,整個台灣能關電板的虧收,如果這個樣子的問題,"},{"start":18199.164,"end":18227.434,"text":"真的不趕快統一整合一套的方式出來是真的會被挑戰的這是其一啦還有牽涉到後續處理去化整個的這個量能的穩定性這個要請賴次賴次一定要一定要非常非常的進入到這樣的一個實質的一個整個整個整個掌控啦那第二件事情我覺得有點好奇啦我們一直在推動太陽能那為什麼太陽能熱水器"},{"start":18228.427,"end":18255.385,"text":"我們現在不做補助了你知道這個事情嗎太陽能熱水器會被颱風吹走太陽能熱水器早期在開發的時候它是有補助的那後來停止補助是因為它的技術已經成熟而且它自己就有效益所以政府就沒有再補助了那我們很多的電氣冰箱"},{"start":18256.266,"end":18275.479,"text":"它都不成熟所以我們持續經濟部一直在補助我們的冰箱會持續跳電因為不成熟我們的冷氣會持續斷電因為不成熟所以政府就必須要持續補助然後太陽能這個熱水器我們在推太陽能然後這個熱水器已經成熟了所以他們就去致死其利你的邏輯"},{"start":18276.997,"end":18299.395,"text":"你今天 李大友說你今天講話一些邏輯 我也被你有點謝謝委員指導我們現在希望說屋頂型的部分啊 加速來推動剛剛委員的這個建議 我們納入整體來做評估可以嗎不是 因為我們一直要朝向這個綠能的占比嘛 對不對這個不是其一嗎那你說因為它成熟 所以就取消了"},{"start":18300.401,"end":18308.944,"text":"然後你其他的電器什麼冷氣都還是連續好幾年那個你敢講那些不成熟嗎你講不出來嘛那各大品牌嘛對不對"},{"start":18310.143,"end":18337.722,"text":"所以所以委員我會跟能源署一起來檢討包括怎麼樣去有序的推動綠能之外對屋頂型的部分能不能有一些經濟的作為我只是在想啦是不是可以盡快讓這樣的的那個你們要達到的目標可以達成嗎那為什麼你們要放棄這一塊這個是不是有相關的統計數據可以讓我們做參考嗎然後也希望兩個星期內是不是可以研究相關的一些因應的辦法作為嗎好不好好好謝謝最後一件事情"},{"start":18340.063,"end":18364.141,"text":"跟這次丹納斯強豪雨造成 我知道我們雲家人應該電路條凹斷應該是要將近三千基啦三千四百五十五根三千幾基 還要更多 當時統計是兩千多 現在是三千多了然後累積停電一百萬戶嘛 對不對動員全國各區超過九成搶修人力超過兩千人集中到14個停電災區進行這個復電搶修嘛"},{"start":18368.12,"end":18381.193,"text":"各位應該知道一天沒有電還好兩天沒有電就不是很好第三天都還沒有電冰箱裡面的東西全部都倒出來有時候你連馬桶都沒辦法上"},{"start":18382.403,"end":18400.952,"text":"那個是那個煎熬,然後這種天氣,露乎,露乎,涼涼的還會滴過,那個天氣我們熱到你真的是整個心肝灰燼啦,啊,裡面你手機過年來的,所以韌性的這樣的一個電力的配置,真的刻不容緩啦。"},{"start":18401.992,"end":18430.826,"text":"真的刻不容緩尤其像雲嘉嵐原來地區甚至於我們雲年的山線就像古耕鄉那些台北去搶救他不是只有去爬到電線桿他還要去搬石頭因為都有落石山路絕對都有落石的然後你知道我們那邊有個村長 草原村長上一次三次颱風他幫台電能源排除那些滑落的石頭三天三夜都沒睡"},{"start":18432.807,"end":18436.53,"text":"他剛才跟我說,你還沒起來給我看,不可能看不見你啊。沒有,沒有在唱啊,沒有在唱電啊,台北的車甘奔起來啊,不管是台北的東西還是外包起來啊,都站在一旁,還在那裡啊,也沒有機械啊。啊,你還叫人家去補藥酒頭,補到來就到了卡通廠那裡,還有開在北京的家庭,北京的家庭那裡啊,那都不可能啦。"},{"start":18458.894,"end":18482.577,"text":"所以電線的地下化我們也不是現在才講也是講很久很久了啦齁那我真的希望賴慈欣妳來就把這個事情列為首要啦齁就其一啦那其二不管是台電的同仁還是外包的這些工作的這些辛苦的人員是不是給他們有一定的這樣的一個鼓勵啦"},{"start":18486.079,"end":18497.75,"text":"這次當然是颱風之後部長特別調整他自己的行程然後去跟台電工會去慰問在當下有跟工會討論到這個問題現今我們對於台電搶修的人員除了他"},{"start":18504.176,"end":18526.961,"text":"執勤中搶修的作業危險的家籍還有包括什麼物產費這些都有當然我們希望說短期裡面我們所有弟兄希望剩下的1122戶趕快復電之外這是我們唯一的信念但是以經濟部跟台電公司的立場而言的話我們會對於我們所有的國營事業包括"},{"start":18528.181,"end":18552.27,"text":"特別是台電公司現在在鋪路在外面搶修的這個員工如何照委員的建議給他更優渥的這個部分我們單大師的專案獎金可以對台電的同仁鼓勵對外包的工作人員鼓勵嗎可以嗎我們來研究好不好拜託拜託儘快好不好好可以謝謝喔次長好謝謝來謝謝朝委好謝謝劉建國朝委謝謝次長來繼續我們請陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":18563.035,"end":18563.316,"text":"你好我們請經濟部"},{"start":18573.496,"end":18601.543,"text":"好委員好 次長好 次長我延續剛才劉委員的這個針對電力 海電的同仁的部分我們在特別的希望說經濟部可以規劃特別的危險津貼還有這個激難救助金那因為我們在江南地區昨天應該是在晚上的時候有一位同仁那他也是因為遭受到這一個很重要很重很重大的這一個"},{"start":18603.796,"end":18617.735,"text":"傷痛啦我們就是現在好像還在加護病房那我想這個也不是單一個案那在這種特別緊湊的形成之下那特別還有很多災民那都會很"},{"start":18619.277,"end":18648.016,"text":"希望是台電盡快復原的時候所以台電的員工他當然是更硬硬的更努力的來去做修復那做修復的過程中他所造成的危險的佳績我是希望說經濟部這邊可以跟台電公司來討論一下特別是這次的專案喔因為已經連續數天快要十天了那這些台電人他們的休息的時間也相對的短喔那我是希望說經濟部可不可以跟台電公司就"},{"start":18649.297,"end":18672.094,"text":"特別規劃危險津貼跟這個急難救助金就可以比過去的專案再多一些謝謝委員指導那昨天發生意外的這個台電的同仁他事實上他是連續的9天搶修他去搶修了嘉義的山區搶修完了之後到海線來支援"},{"start":18673.095,"end":18693.333,"text":"那昨天傍晚差不多4點56分的時候發生這個意外那現在正在加護病房急救中那目前為止當然我們看到除了透過葉克膜然後恢復他心跳之外然後透過低溫的處理我們希望他趕快的恢復意識那剛剛"},{"start":18694.594,"end":18714.298,"text":"委員所指導的這個部分包括在搶修的所謂的津貼的部分或是救助的部分是不是容我們經濟部回去再做投案的這個檢討那麻煩就是包含外包廠商的這些人員因為這次不是只是台電的人員全部都是在一起第一線去搶修"},{"start":18714.918,"end":18733.34,"text":"那除了這個之外那些同仁在山區搶秀的時候有些時候一待就是數十個小時那包含他的餐飲住宿條件都很克難所以如果可以的話可不可以把這些同仁第一線的同仁特別是在這個緊急專案的同仁他的津貼標準把這個也納入考量"},{"start":18734.481,"end":18753.888,"text":"因為就是山區部分其實是沒有休息的地方的那有的時候我看到有一些台電人員因為路況的關係那有的時候甚至還要做維修包含他們自己的車輛都出現問題所以這些如果都能夠劃入考量的話那我想對這些員工會有比較大的幫助是不是可以通案來處理"},{"start":18754.868,"end":18774.484,"text":"謝謝委員長 這個我們通案來檢討我們在此也感謝很多的民間的包括旅館業者提供相關的住宿的地點給台電的搶修的員工那還有一點就是這一次在搶修的過程當中有些時候是道路道路的問題他要事先要排除那"},{"start":18775.445,"end":18802.352,"text":"變成台電能源他可能他的時間就變成一方面要排除路障一方面要排除各種狀況然後還要再去負責附電的工作所以未來是不是可以請經濟部跟國防部還有這一個交通部就是有沒有一個更完整的平台就是一出入的時候就是先把交通的部分立刻恢復之後那台電能源就可以專注在他的本業未來在訓練演練的時候是不是可以請麻煩協調另外兩個部會"},{"start":18804.752,"end":18815.88,"text":"這次我們在災害應變的部分就依照委員的這個建議但是事實上因為它這次從嘉義直接登錄了它的影響的程度"},{"start":18817.321,"end":18844.198,"text":"超乎我們的想像所以也感謝陳委員包括蔡益委員在這個中間幫我們去協調包括地方政府還有鄉鎮公所他做侵入的部分就不用浪費我們台電專業的這個機具或是人力去做這樣的一個事情好那這個吧這最後再請您再回去再檢討一下那最後我還是要講關於電纜地下化那電纜地下化在海區的話它有它的"},{"start":18845.399,"end":18864.394,"text":"可能說第一個地層下陷第二個可能地下水那可能會導致他比較沒有辦法作為首要的考量但是現在在我們山區那其實他沒有上述的這些問題包含中浦鄉中浦鄉的我們電纜地下化他目前是暫時停歌的狀態那主要是因為"},{"start":18866.235,"end":18889.595,"text":"台電他們認為說現在如果是為了適容美觀它可能會把它排序往後面演但是問題是現在這一次的風災證明了說它不是美觀的問題它是有防災的功能性災那是不是針對沒有上述這些問題的地段來加速我們這樣子電能地下化然後把它的優先持續再往上提一點"},{"start":18890.305,"end":18890.325,"text":"台電電網強韌計畫"},{"start":18920.265,"end":18940.921,"text":"公司一起來努力好謝謝那最後針對環境部我簡單一個問題就好了委員好部長好部長這一次的災後的清潔人員還有這些幸運的同仁我們當然是致上最高的敬意但是這一次的風災已經產生超過6萬噸災害廢棄戶這個數量其實已經超過我們嘉義永續循環中心好幾個月的處理量"},{"start":18946.545,"end":18964.091,"text":"那我是想說針對這一次的部分這些清潔隊員他必須要加班加點所以能不能也是同剛才我們跟經濟部討論的部分一樣這次參與風災廢棄物的這些輕易的低限能源有沒有提供額外的危險加急或者是特別的進貼"},{"start":18965.691,"end":18984.683,"text":"因為那個按照地方自治法這個是屬於地方我知道這是涉及地方政府的人事權但是因為環境部作為中央主管機關是不是可以訂定災害清理人員特別津貼的指導原則來一個給地方政府一個方向不知道部長的看法是"},{"start":18985.364,"end":19000.022,"text":"呃好委員我們來研議一下啦好不好那這個部分就麻煩研議一下因為我們知道這是地方的權責但是中央作為指導機關的話他把它法制化的話可能會讓地方更加有機會來提供給這些輕運人員因為輕運人員他都有加班費啦"},{"start":19000.302,"end":19020.735,"text":"我知道 就算這次台電人員也有但是就是這次是連續10場10天甚至15天都還會有那所以這種長期在過勞的狀況之下那我認為這次要轉案啦轉案 但是都是屬於行政院自己的職權所在我們提供建議 包含經濟部跟環境部都可以加入考量好 謝謝"},{"start":19024.761,"end":19030.905,"text":"好謝謝部長次長謝謝陳委員最後一個我們陳穎委員質詢好謝謝主席麻煩先請嚴署長部長先休息待會再上來委員好"},{"start":19053.875,"end":19075.409,"text":"署長好 謝謝你去台東我們下次再去我們看一下 這是去年11月27日審查今年的中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管公務及基金預算署長你回覆本席提案說明的報導 看一下"},{"start":19076.429,"end":19100.896,"text":"幫你恢復一下記憶那本席提出環境部自2008年起政府開始推廣衛生紙丟馬桶的概念但是依照環境部調查顯示實際2024年呢仍然有55%的民眾使用公廁之後呢將衛生紙丟入馬桶那除了會造成這個臭味瀰漫文淫滋生之外呢衛生紙"},{"start":19101.796,"end":19117.668,"text":"残留的这个粪便也可能有导致痢疾A肝还有肠病毒等等的这个病菌传播然后让这个后续使用者呢有这个染疫风险以外呢也增加了这个清洁人员的清扫时间还有这个成本"},{"start":19119.062,"end":19139.656,"text":"那當時署長的回覆是全台僅剩下10%的管線老舊廁所可標示應投入馬桶或垃圾桶那其餘都鼓勵應投入馬桶我想請教一下這個10%的管線老舊統計數據是環管署統計出來的嗎還是說這個從哪裡來"},{"start":19150.144,"end":19169.34,"text":"你們統計是的是這樣子就說我們在各環保局這邊都會去把公測做一個調查跟督導那發現大概有10%他是以管縣老舊的名義來貼那個標籤說不要丟入這個馬桶而要丟入這個垃圾桶"},{"start":19172.863,"end":19183.593,"text":"我確認一下我怕我理解錯誤就是說這10%其實是各地他們統計公測的部分的10%"},{"start":19185.475,"end":19212.825,"text":"而不是一個全國性統計的資料因為我們辦公室真的找了很久目前找不到全國性的統計資料特別是針對廁所管線老舊的建築跟比例但是我們能夠很確定的就是說至少在立法院我們現在在的這一棟樓"},{"start":19214.185,"end":19221.561,"text":"還有我的研究室青島藝館還有可能搞不好你們環管署的大樓也是屬於"},{"start":19224.37,"end":19244.545,"text":"這個沒有辦法把衛生紙丟進馬桶的這種廁所吧是 包委員 這個也其實是誤會我們請教了很多專家 我們也做過實驗其實只要這個排泄物能夠通過的衛生紙一定能夠通過"},{"start":19245.786,"end":19263.716,"text":"衛生紙的水溶性是比排泄物還要高衛生紙是短纖而我們的排泄物有部分是長纖所以管線老舊這件事情不是衛生紙的問題而是管線它應該去清的問題"},{"start":19264.836,"end":19278.844,"text":"所以衛生紙它是冤枉的我們還是希望所有人把衛生紙只要廁所它能夠使用就應該把衛生紙丟入馬桶不要再丟在垃圾桶裡面"},{"start":19280.486,"end":19298.926,"text":"好今天得到一個驚人的結論原來衛生紙是無辜的是那面紙呢能丟嗎面紙絕對不能丟面紙它是長鉛加思強劑它在水中是不容易分散分解的"},{"start":19299.855,"end":19328.954,"text":"所以如果短纖的衛生紙可以溶解意思就是說我們其實接下來只要處理管線老舊就是把它通一通所有的我們除了面紙以外我們一般擦的那個衛生紙丟進去都可以丟到馬桶裡面所以變成如果糞便是長纖的就不行"},{"start":19333.705,"end":19348.311,"text":"我是按照署長的邏輯去講包委員我們應該這樣講就是說那個馬桶除了衛生紙其他的都不要丟進去這是最簡單的一個講法那"},{"start":19349.529,"end":19378.649,"text":"會阻塞的原因絕對不是衛生紙我們去清從來沒有看過一張衛生紙是在馬桶裡面阻塞都是面紙或者是尿布抹布等等或者兒童玩具在裡面阻塞的或者是有人倒廚宇在裡面那這樣好我來請教一下因為今天得到這個驚人的結論之後我這一題後面也是開花了那我還是"},{"start":19379.769,"end":19406.442,"text":"但我們還是可以得到一個重要的結論如果按照如果署長你今天講的都是對的那表示我們現在全國我起碼我做的功課2024年全台屋齡超過30年以上建築物的這個佔比超過45%而且這些建築物的廁所跟排水管的管線未曾全面更新所以這些"},{"start":19407.382,"end":19436.303,"text":"這些這麼高比例的老舊的這些管線我們其實就是給它認真給它清通我們的衛生紙都可以全部丟進去了謝謝委員是嗎正確的因為我們的管線從日治時期到現在污水管都是4英寸我們的馬桶那個存水彎出去是2英寸所以我們不一定要換但是我們要常常給它通"},{"start":19437.624,"end":19451.983,"text":"對好那能不能麻煩你建議我們立法院的總務是我們很願意建議管縣都部長受不了要站起來好不好部長說"},{"start":19453.83,"end":19472.062,"text":"包圍了因為我們這個從去年底我們就關注去年的時候我上任的時候我們部的同仁就跟我報告因為跟我們報告這個沈世宏前署長的時候我是不能丟然後李應元當署長的時候開始要推要丟然後他們就要問我說"},{"start":19473.143,"end":19489.809,"text":"到底決定要丟不丟然後我就覺得很奇怪然後後來我們就討論了之後要從科學來解決所以我們後來決定支持而且我們為了這個事情還到日本去看日本沒有那種衛生紙丟在這個垃圾桶的有一些小的給女性的一些用品可以丟"},{"start":19490.729,"end":19512.906,"text":"那不過我們國人的這個認知習慣真的很不好所以也謝謝委員你有這個機會讓大家都知道因為我們的國人習慣面子也丟什麼東西都丟廚藝都丟因為馬桶就會不見一樣那樣的話會讓那個這個馬桶那個管線會開始有結構啦結構之後其實找通水管的通一通就不會堵塞了"},{"start":19513.779,"end":19539.256,"text":"那個署長對不起我其實今天是也想做球給你我沒有要找你麻煩齁那這個委員這個我們是不是我們來因為立法院可以做的太多包含立法院那個蠻耗能的立法院這個東西也不符合時代的規範我們在推動這個政策然後立法院卻不能把衛生紙丟進去所以看召委是不是交代我們來處理一下我們來幫忙"},{"start":19544.6,"end":19559.81,"text":"我們乾脆搬家好了比較實在好那這樣子啦我就是其實我們回歸到這個很嚴肅的講一個政策的推動不要因為署長在換就改來改去那我們也是無所適從"},{"start":19560.771,"end":19588.197,"text":"那政策要推動我們也要先了解實際的狀況還有真正誰是誰是原罪誰是無辜的我們真的錯怪衛生紙所以這個部分我想你們還是好好研議一下下次好好上來表現一下這樣子好不好因為我們有努力把所有的衛生紙的公司去跟他談那現在26個品牌現在市面上買的都可以丟進去的以前沒有啦以前就有幾種"},{"start":19590.037,"end":19607.956,"text":"好 謝謝那個我真的對昭緯很抱歉因為颱風讓我把颱風的這個電板的問題問完我們就結束其他的我都不要問了啦這樣好不好太陽能辦因為這個其實它只是一題結果我們都要驚人的答案"},{"start":19609.164,"end":19622.955,"text":"我就說開花了啊所以就變成這樣但也謝謝今天的美麗的意外好 那個署長你請回座那我請彭部長跟經濟部次長希望後面不要再開花了"},{"start":19626.01,"end":19650.686,"text":"因為這次丹納斯颱風再來災情我們的認知就是說都是農損農損是比較主要的但是沒有想到我們嘉南地區這次傳出來竟然有那麼多的太陽能電板散布在農田然後有的甚至被吹落在海域那引發就是說這個社會高度的關注"},{"start":19652.607,"end":19681.326,"text":"因為我剛剛聽到就是說剛才特別那個能源署的代理署長回覆這個劉委員他有提到就是說一般毀損毀損的這個太陽能板都是由廠商去支付這個回收處理的這個費用是這個問題那但是現在這次那個颱風17級的颶風那有的就吹的到處都是啊那你怎麼去分辨"},{"start":19683.909,"end":19699.369,"text":"說還是誰要去撿回來然後我們去研究說這一片是哪個廠商的這是一個問題嘛我不知道誰會去做應該是環境部吧包括每個面板下面都有一個貼一個東西每一片都有"},{"start":19701.371,"end":19726.241,"text":"所以你們做完之後那經濟部會做代位求償這件事嗎還是誰就直接因為他設置的時候他現在的規定是分十年嘛那分十年他繳收回收金那這個繳收回收金到基金裡面這邊來那當然環境部他有推動一些回收的業者那回收業者去處理的時候他就可以來跟這個基金來申請這個費用"},{"start":19728.114,"end":19742.526,"text":"好那所以基本上我們還是冤有頭債有主還找得到債主就對了OK好謝謝那我想就是說因為在就是說這次的這個災損的容量容量為這個47MW然後佔全國14.6GW的總裝置容量大概是0.3%那這樣的數據就是說還好"},{"start":19752.815,"end":19773.331,"text":"就是說損害的比例沒有很高但是呢整體受損的電廠還是有40座那大型水面的案場4案那地面的1案那小型光電業25案還有非電業的案場有10案我想要請教就是說那如果這樣受損僅佔0.3%那目前全台到底設置了多少太陽能的電廠"},{"start":19775.371,"end":19789.856,"text":"全台的話大型的部分大概有300多個然後比較小型的案場差不多7萬5千個那當然這個屋頂型的部分是更是比較零落然後不計其數"},{"start":19791.297,"end":19814.154,"text":"那如委員所說的這次當然是颱風然後雖然說他直接的襲擊我們的西部走廊地區但是事實上所有的這個光電99.5%我們的我們目前統計的資料是0.4%是受損害的0.4%好那所以大概你說這樣總數加起來大約幾座"},{"start":19818.163,"end":19844.002,"text":"電廠 應該有7萬快7萬6千6千多處 好好謝謝那因為你們在審核這個太陽能電廠的時候有沒有訂定統一的標準 當然有 而且我們現在還僅僅3月31號之後還有我們最近我們跟農業部針對一致的審查標準更加的有再提高 因為這次即便你們本來就有訂說要耐到17級風嘛但是"},{"start":19846.884,"end":19864.62,"text":"還是這個是我們目前預告的法案我們這個目前預告的法案那你們有所以也會納入這個颱風地震跟環境有趣的這個風險因素都會納進去喔這個我們當然是會把這個部分考慮進來那目前台東縣有多少的太陽能電廠"},{"start":19867.689,"end":19893.05,"text":"抱歉委員我現在腦海裡面沒有這個數據是不是容我會後提供給你好沒關係但未來臺東還會再規劃設置新的嗎原則上我們希望說對於環境的融合以環境的融合為主因為我目前也不多啦就台鐵嘛然後泰瑪麗相公所跟達魯瑪克我們比較知道的是這樣子"},{"start":19894.785,"end":19912.831,"text":"那就是說當然地方政府的這個政策態度對於光電場域的這個設置的整個造成實質的影響其實應該算是很重要的啦那目前我們受損的40個電廠已經清運了34場嘛那帶清運了6個"},{"start":19916.972,"end":19939.693,"text":"其中五場大型案場已經請廠商進行清運中那一場小型水面型的因為當地停電跟道路受阻所以預計廠修後會進行勘驗修復那我想進一步了解就是說這些受損的電板是屬於失業廢棄物那就是說麻煩你們說明一下就是說這個清運跟處理的程序"},{"start":19940.938,"end":19966.161,"text":"好 包委員那個清運是我們現在有要求那個業者大的業者大概兩個禮拜內一定要把它清掉不清掉我們就要罰了那因為他們現在是受災戶等於是颱風的受災戶我們這個跟我們一般民眾受到的影響是一樣我們給他們一點點的寬容然後另外一個是他兩個禮拜清完小的大概要一個禮拜一個禮拜一定要把它清完不然的話要開罰"},{"start":19967.142,"end":19994.695,"text":"然後他清完之後他目前的有一些已經跟這個處理業者簽約了太陽能板回收的處理業者那這個送到那個處理業者這個處理的話目前呢我們開放他的量能能夠大一點點所以預計那邊的處理量能完成大概一個半月那損壞太陽能板是不是還可以回收再利用會我們目前算到像我禮拜六去看一家廠商那他大概回收率大概92%"},{"start":19996.161,"end":20018.475,"text":"那也還算還不錯那因為過去這些電廠設置需不需要做環境影響評估那目前針對不同型態的電廠會不會是否有這個相關的環評標準因為以前是只有針對濕地然後我們今年1月我們公佈了一個法令增加了非常的多而且散播地是20MW"},{"start":20019.455,"end":20046.73,"text":"還有15公頃都要還品那目前社會上的聲音是蠻多的希望能夠加嚴那我們現在也在考慮也會跟那個能源署來討論這個事情因為要不要做還品才是重點因為你在怎麼規定面積啦怎麼樣啊那個都是上有政策下有對策啦所以外界是非常關心那個水面型的光電暗場的設置依據那我想請教就是說海上的電廠設置的法源是什麼那大概平均壽命多少"},{"start":20047.63,"end":20069.024,"text":"海上現在目前還在試驗目前屏東那一個是試驗計畫那他目前正在進行試驗那還沒有完成那以目前來看他目前試驗的沒有成功那他可能還要再回去做改善那如果他願意繼續做試驗他再去修正之後再做試驗所以"},{"start":20070.365,"end":20087.134,"text":"目前法院 它是一個實驗計畫對 它沒有核准設置那我想就是說後續我們這個災後的太陽能板的清運我們很關心說到底有沒有這個有毒物質流入海洋"},{"start":20087.614,"end":20100.089,"text":"那你們也有發新聞稿說明你們主張說不會造成汙染但是因為我們不清楚依據是什麼是來自廠商的書面資料還是根據這個具體的這個學理跟實際監測的結果"},{"start":20103.224,"end":20123.524,"text":"學理上是沒有我這個禮拜六也去實際上的處理廠商我一個一個看他拆解完了東西那我也可以確認沒有那為了這個嚴謹性我們禮拜一有請我們水保師去嘉義台南四個地方去測水質有沒有一個禮拜後因為有掉到這個水池了這個餘溫了"},{"start":20125.546,"end":20148.104,"text":"那目前我們看到重金屬的污染可以有的是大概有五到六項是零檢出所以目前來看的話大概是沒有問題我想在延長持續的那個採樣跟監測是有必要的啦那也就是說我們當然就是說藉著這一次的經驗我想本席具體建議就是說"},{"start":20150.166,"end":20165.8,"text":"持續做這個實地的環境採樣跟監測然後實證是否有這個毒性物質的外洩那最後就是說我們不要忽略還有這個過去不少這個職業災害的這個發生因為這個光電設施的這個裝設跟維運的"},{"start":20172.426,"end":20185.474,"text":"部分有上升的趨勢 這個部分是你們其實也是你們環境部的責任那也請你們納入相關作業人員的這個職業災害預防的機制跟指引好 沒問題 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長 次長"},{"start":20190.1,"end":20206.673,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員盧憲一、許新穎有提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報作為以下決定我們的詢答全部完畢17個人講了5個小時今天的詢答是"},{"start":20208.034,"end":20226.64,"text":"讓他充分的問好問滿委員執行會及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內順便答覆委員另請要求者從其鎖定本週會議的到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}