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主席 省召集委員博洋報告實項 於宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定而繼續處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算提出書面報告後 使得動之等無案"},{"start":1871.136,"end":1885.968,"text":"決定以上五案報告完略均同意動資並提報院會三處理院會交付一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算提出書面報告報告後使得動資等十一案決定以上十一案報告完略均同意動資並提報院會"},{"start":1888.09,"end":1914.705,"text":"國防部部長顧立雄、國家中山科學研究院院長李士強外交部政務次長吳志忠及僑務委員會委員長許家青報告委員陳永康等10人質詢軍有國防部部長顧立雄軍備局局長林文祥法律事務司司長沈世偉國家中山科學研究院院長李士強外交部政務次長吳志忠及國際組織司司長孫檢元等及其答覆"},{"start":1915.545,"end":1943.51,"text":"決定一登記諮詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員黃仁所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報三委員書面及口頭諮詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請相關機關與二周內已書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員另指定期限則從其所定討論事項一繼續處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管海軍司令部第五目向下國軍HF通信機換裝案預算凍結500萬元案"},{"start":1945.85,"end":1965.285,"text":"決議本案處理完均 同意動資並提報院會二 處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算凍結案一 軍備局第四幕向下對國內團體資捐助辦理中科院民修航太及無人機產業園區開發建設計畫預算凍結30%中案報告案決議本案處理完均 同意動資並提報院會二 軍備局第四幕向下對國內團體資捐助預算凍結20%中案報告案"},{"start":1974.572,"end":2001.765,"text":"決議本案處理完略 同意動資並提報院會 三國防部主管預算凍結案等21案決議以上21案處理完略 均同意動資並提報院會 三處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議 外交部主管第一項新增決議 關乎一預算凍結案 密決議本案處理完略 同意動資並提報院會 四處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議 僑務委員會主管第六目向下擴大培育及流用僑生預算凍結300萬元案"},{"start":2004.106,"end":2031.167,"text":"決議本案處理完略均同意動之並提報院會宣讀完畢請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項邀請外交部部長國家安全局局長經濟部次長財政部次長農業部次長行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表報告台美對等關係談判進度預期成果對我國可能之衝擊及因應對因應策略並被質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":2034.572,"end":2058.043,"text":"現在介紹在場的委員及介紹議會的官員我們第一個介紹陳永康委員以下介紹議會的官員我們林昭榮部長因公請假由政務次長陳明祺來代理亞東太平洋司副司長林鴻勛"},{"start":2062.751,"end":2087.756,"text":"西亞籍非洲市市長顏嘉良歐洲市市長黃軍耀拉丁美洲籍加勒比海市副市長盧曹瑞北美市市長王良玉條約法律市副市長許博裕國際組織市副市長張智沙"},{"start":2094.575,"end":2118.781,"text":"國際合作及經濟事務司副市長林美辰國際傳播司副市長蕭美惠研究設計會副主任林思新秘書處副處長王伯漢人事處長李世怡主計處長李佩華"},{"start":2122.401,"end":2150.538,"text":"公眾外交協調會副執行長陳怡君台灣關係台灣日本關係會副秘書長張仁久領事事務局局長鄭振勇國家安全局由蔡局長應公請假由副局長黃明昭代理經濟部次長"},{"start":2152.877,"end":2178.064,"text":"張文諾國際貿易署副署長胡啟堅產業發展署產業政策組組長嚴鳳琦中小及創新新創企業署主任秘書林佳琴財政部常務次長謝玲媛"},{"start":2182.11,"end":2198.954,"text":"公署副署長蘇淑珍國庫署公股管理組檢任機合楊博存負稅署所得稅組副組長胡世賢負稅署消費稅組副組長蘇進娟"},{"start":2210.892,"end":2231.557,"text":"農業部市長杜文珍國際事務司副市長溫祖康事務司司長林宜謙綜合規劃司副市長韓寶珠農糧署副署長陳啟隆漁業署副署長林鼎龍"},{"start":2239.314,"end":2264.868,"text":"農業金融署副署長施妮婷動植物防疫檢疫署主任秘書陳子維行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表嚴慧欣資深談判代表兼執行秘書許從欣以上"},{"start":2269.793,"end":2291.105,"text":"補充介紹 王定宜委員確認議事錄 請問在場委員對於上次的會議 議事錄有無疑落 錯誤或需要更正之處沒有 好 議事錄確定"},{"start":2293.888,"end":2316.678,"text":"本會邀請外交部、國家安全局、經濟部、財政部、農業部、行政院、經貿談判辦公室報告台美對等關稅談判進度預期成果對我國可能是衝擊及因應策略並被質詢首先請外交部"},{"start":2327.958,"end":2347.156,"text":"謝謝主席本席提出程序問題國家利益是沒有黨派之分的所以我就以下問題就叫我們在場的同仁台美等對等關稅談判進度預期成果對我國可能之衝擊及因應策略這個題目不錯"},{"start":2348.345,"end":2369.61,"text":"但是時間點不對為什麼講時間點不對呢現在談判還在進行當中結果還沒有出來結果還沒有出來衝擊難以評估怎麼去擬定因應策略難道把所有劇本A方案B方案全部在這邊羅列出來如果不羅列出來對不起主席用意良善的好題目所以我講"},{"start":2370.31,"end":2386.728,"text":"这个是一个中性的题目但是时间点也许排在结果出来之后我们可以好好善加讨论所以第一个时机错了第二个程序问题是方式也不对国际谈判稍微有国际常识去晓得很多协议都有保密协定"},{"start":2387.947,"end":2408.172,"text":"都有保密協定那官員當然要對立法院負責如果公開把一些保密協定擬出來之後再回頭遭受報復的時候受害的是台灣的產業跟全體人民所以立法院可以關心更應該監督但是會議的形式應該等結果出來"},{"start":2409.913,"end":2422.65,"text":"詢問行政單位是否簽有保密協定採取機密會議這個方式會比較妥當我們可以監督但是應該維繫國家利益所以本席在這邊提出程序問題就是這個題目"},{"start":2425.353,"end":2444.119,"text":"本席沒有意見 我覺得應該討論但是時間點 時機不正確第二個 方式上代商榷是不是請主席 我們可以打開形容去思考這個問題是不是把這個題目挪後 至少等結果出來像印尼今天早上19%嘛那印尼的國會就可以討論這19%該怎麼因應"},{"start":2446.46,"end":2475.194,"text":"然後談判之間有沒有什麼彼此溝通的默契我隨便舉個例子這不是真實的內容我再強調一次我隨便舉個例子不是真實的內容比如說我們對美的軍事採購有沒有列入deficit有沒有列入所謂的赤字裡面那也許公開不能說但是在機密會議可以談所以在有關這個題目本席先肯定主席這個題目是隕蕩的但是時間點跟方式可能是不適宜的"},{"start":2475.794,"end":2501.634,"text":"所以我們今天是不是就這個題目我也建議行政部門不管是外交國安經濟相關部門談判還在進行當中我不曉得你們可以報告什麼你們如果報告出來的東西影響到了整個談判的進行不適合如果報告的東西不適時那對國會不敬也不適合所以今天這個題目是不是可以略加修正修正成我們可以報告的是我們就"},{"start":2505.461,"end":2528.755,"text":"4100億 現在當然變5000多億啦裡面有關我們財經國安相關的準備的措施事前的準備可以做報告而談判當中的因應跟談判後的因應也許我們留待下下次會反正這一次藍白聯手我們研會延到天長地久嘛到8月31號所以下下次會呢主席還是可以列一樣的題目以上程序問題請我們委員會大家公決"},{"start":2537.619,"end":2537.839,"text":"我們就這樣子好了"},{"start":2557.506,"end":2582.499,"text":"因為目前來講這也是一個關稅關鍵站的一個問題那本席就以機關就可以報告的事項比如說我們今天的外交部包含國安局包含經貿代表可以公開說明的至於比較深入為決定的是一個案件我們先補不對"},{"start":2583.98,"end":2606.21,"text":"那我們就以可以公開的事項裡面來做一個報告 好不好大家有沒有意見好 我們就以這樣的那請外交部我們的政務次長上來報告"},{"start":2616.481,"end":2640.226,"text":"主席 委員 各位女士 各位先生 大家早安承蒙貴委員會邀請外交部前來就台美對等關稅談判進度預期成果以及對我可能的衝擊跟因應策略進行專題報告並備質詢以下我們提出本部的說明進行主席跟委員不定指教"},{"start":2641.306,"end":2663.457,"text":"那麼美國川普政府從4月9號宣布包含台灣在內的75國對等關稅豁免90天到現在那麼我國政府在這個時間裡面那麼爭取跟美方進行直接的談判的各種的機會爭取國家最大利益並且維護人民的福祉"},{"start":2664.897,"end":2669.26,"text":"從台美啟動對等關稅談判以來,雙方已經經歷了三次實體談判、多次線上磋商跟溝通,針對多項關鍵議題凝聚共識,雙方也都肯認談判的持續推進。"},{"start":2683.2,"end":2707.456,"text":"台美雙方也都表達對於強化台美經貿合作的共同期待我們也希望在這個互惠互利的一個基礎上面為雙方的產業跟經濟發展帶來更多的機會那麼川普總統在美東時間7月7日開始陸續的公布對於多國的最新關稅的稅率信函"},{"start":2708.457,"end":2723.364,"text":"並且在同日簽署行政命令將原定7月9號的對等關稅暫緩期限延長到8月1號已經獲得美方寄送的信函的各國最新的稅率原則將從8月1號開始生效"},{"start":2727.766,"end":2752.629,"text":"美國白宮針對前述的行政命令所發布的新聞稿指出美國對於各國進行貿易討論及談判仍持續保持開放的態度川普總統也正在採取相關的行動以建立未來與各國的貿易關係川普總統寫給歐盟的信函中也特別提到"},{"start":2754.531,"end":2770.559,"text":"關稅稅率仍可能根據雙邊關係上修或下調。美國商務部長 Howard Ludnick 在印尼媒體所詢時說明,即便已經激發信函,與各國的貿易談判仍將持續進行。"},{"start":2774.779,"end":2799.356,"text":"美国目前公布对多国的最新税率关税的税率中以对巴西科征的50%的税率是最高日本从原来的关税税率24%调升为25%南韩则维持25%加拿大招科征35%这都高于现行的25%欧盟30%到7月14号"},{"start":2804.86,"end":2828.184,"text":"為止,那麼尚未公布台灣及澳大利亞等貿易規模比較大的夥伴的稅率那麼另外英國、美國等則率先英國跟美國之間則率先達成初步貿易協定川普總統也會在本年6月中旬在七大工業國G7的領袖會議的場邊會晤英國的首相史凱爾"},{"start":2833.605,"end":2841.989,"text":"公布雙方所簽署的協議另外同時也實施的產業式的關稅汽車跟零組件、鋼鋁以及可能即將實施的產業式的關稅、藥品半導體跟關鍵礦產仍然獨立於對等關稅"},{"start":2856.016,"end":2874.856,"text":"那麼我們的政府因應美國對等關稅的立場我們在面對美國川普總統提出的對等關稅後那麼全球的新局讓我們始終秉持著深化台美經貿互動關係促進台美互惠互利以及貿易平衡的互動關係"},{"start":2876.798,"end":2898.506,"text":"那麼促進台美這個互惠互利以及貿易平衡作為我們的核心任務面對美方期待我們也持續的在維護國家利益維護產業利益維護國民健康以及確保糧食安全等等原則上面找到路徑致力促進雙方貿易平衡"},{"start":2899.726,"end":2922.92,"text":"解决双方过去在贸易上的分歧,优化经贸体系,进而创造未来更进一步的伙伴关系。而关于台美双方的关税谈判的进度,双方持续就对等关税等经贸议题磋商沟通,如果有进一步的资讯,将由行政院统一事实对外说明。"},{"start":2923.86,"end":2945.714,"text":"外交部會持續落實賴總統所提出的深化台美經貿關係的路徑圖,透過台美既有對話機制和管道,跟相關部會合作,共同降低川普總統和關稅政策可能造成的衝擊,並掌握在美國再工業化的過程之中我們的產業機會。"},{"start":2947.695,"end":2973.3,"text":"针对美国跟各国关税谈判的进展外交部及时收报各项的资讯提供行政院谈判团队以及相关的支持跟协助外交部驻美代表处以及各驻外管处在这个时间之内持续的积极透过各样的管道收报各种谈判的相关资讯提供行政院的谈判团队参考"},{"start":2975.038,"end":2998.339,"text":"同時,我們也提供各項行政協助跟安排,確保談判團隊能夠把握時機向美方傳達我方意見,促成台美雙方就各項關切的議題的實質討論。外交部持續密切關注川普政府各項的經貿科技新政,積極拓展台美合作的機會。"},{"start":2999.76,"end":3020.293,"text":"川普總統上任以來推出一系列的經貿政策,是希望能夠達到跟外國貿易公平互惠、美國再工業化製造業及供應鏈重回美國,以及維持美國在人工智慧等高科技產業上的領導地位,以及吸引各國赴美投資設廠等目標。"},{"start":3021.934,"end":3040.987,"text":"那麼為了要掌握地緣政治的變化展開的帶來的做國際合作的機會外交部也同步的這個關注美方所提出的有關於經貿跟這個科技的各項新政比如說即將要提出的這個人工智慧行動方案AI action plan"},{"start":3042.027,"end":3062.693,"text":"能源合作、新援外政策方向以及出口管制措施等等的政策,我們隨時掌握地緣政治的變化帶來的台美合作契機,並且希望總和外交戰略發揮重效,深化台美關係、經貿關係,最大化國家的利益。"},{"start":3063.553,"end":3080.51,"text":"在我們這個外交部現在的這個總和外交的戰略之下外交部跟美方共同促進了多項互惠共榮的時機包括那麼跟台灣美國商會共同促進今年3月下旬阿拉斯加州長"},{"start":3082.712,"end":3099.085,"text":"當Vili,當Levy,訪台見證阿拉斯加州天然氣管道開發公司與台灣中油公司簽訂的阿拉斯加液化天然氣買賣及投資意向書有助於我國的能源安全"},{"start":3100.327,"end":3114.305,"text":"外交部长林部长在今年5月也率领产业团赴德州考察展现我们公司部门合作扩大促进台美双向投资的经贸外交的时机"},{"start":3115.706,"end":3143.344,"text":"總之那麼外交部在總統跟行政院指導之下對我這個政府相關部會的合作我們希望能夠共同將這個美國的對等關稅的政策的衝擊降到最低並且持續的透過台美既有的各項對話機制我們深入討論關切的議題共同促進印太區域跟全球的和平穩定繁榮發展我們以上報告還請這個主席跟各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3150.099,"end":3152.636,"text":"請國家安全局黃副局長上台報告"},{"start":3164.52,"end":3181.739,"text":"主席召委 以及各位委員先進 各位女士先生感謝大安安排本局進行專題報告本局緊究中理國家情報工作的立場以及針對美國對等關稅措施指要的特點以及國安情報團隊經貿安全防護作為提出報告"},{"start":3184.882,"end":3201.615,"text":"第一個部分是美國對等關稅措施的指要特點而這個美國關稅措施與談判立場主要特點有以下第一平衡貿易逆差並鼓勵赴美來投資第二是提高關稅但保留談判的空間"},{"start":3202.856,"end":3232.296,"text":"第三是应用关税强化经济安全关税措施不仅诉求经贸利益也有国安及其他政策的考量比方说促成有效来管控非法移民跟分担的问题另外对钢理汽车加税则为因应美国关键产业面临低价倾销的压力另外对金砖国家推动反美政策加征10%的关税"},{"start":3233.356,"end":3239.722,"text":"並揚言對採購俄羅斯油氣駐其續戰國家課徵100%的關稅第二部分是國家情報團隊經貿安全防務的作為本局統合協調國安情報團隊駐收境外敵對勢力對我經濟及科技滲透的情形查查違法違規相關工作如下第一"},{"start":3259.549,"end":3283.127,"text":"強化我供應鏈的安全韌性 中共近年來加大重要產業及供應鏈的滲透進行科技竊密 本質協同前者機關加強查核境外來台投資案 查處偵辦中資以跨境多層次的依回方式來台防止從事未經許可業別的項目 卻為我供應鏈的安全存進"},{"start":3284.451,"end":3298.67,"text":"第二加強高科技貨品出口的管制本級配合經濟部國貿署就境外交易對象可能涉及武器擴散活動最終用途使用者身份進行查核並接同"},{"start":3300.09,"end":3320.653,"text":"國際情報合作友方共同來防堵戰略性高科技貨品設備不法輸出防制武闊活動也加強注收查查中企向我業者採購高科技管制貨品等情資並專案掃蕩中企不法在台落地營運防範中共"},{"start":3321.792,"end":3343.729,"text":"在台採購先進製程的晶片第三打擊中製產品境外洗產地中共為規避各國產業保護措施在第三地設立了貨品轉印點以境外簡易加工重新包裝方式改標偽造原產地證明再出口輸往歐美消費市場"},{"start":3345.373,"end":3361.627,"text":"我政府已成立跨部會的聯防機制本級將持續統合國安情報團隊駐收中共的這個產品製作的產品貼牌滲透的情形第四是反制科技簽名挖角國安情報團隊駐收"},{"start":3363.444,"end":3385.461,"text":"也加強查查中企未經核准在台的營運本局透過國際情報合作管道密鑄中共在國際間科技竊密挖角的手法即使掌握疫情之後協同各前者機關完善我國家核心關鍵技術的一個保護機制最後我結議"},{"start":3387.282,"end":3410.405,"text":"本節將持續密駐美國對等關稅措施及談判後續的發展會整延期支援政府決策令防範中共對我產業的一個科技滲透竊密等這個情勢竊為經濟的安全以上報告敬請大安委員先進不吝指導也持續對國安情報工作給予大力的支持謝謝"},{"start":3414.895,"end":3420.697,"text":"接著我們請行政院經貿談判辦公室嚴副總談判代表上台報告"},{"start":3431.365,"end":3445.906,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好陳孟貴委員的邀請就請本行辦公室就台美對等關稅談判進度預期成果對我國的可能的衝擊跟因應策略來提出報告以下檢要報告如下"},{"start":3446.747,"end":3467.897,"text":"首先在美國科珍對等關稅的這個發展上面我們可以理解美國為了要處理它長期巨額的貿易逆差的問題協助美國的再工業化所以川普總統在4月2號發布了行政命令那提出對超過180個國家所有蘇美的產品要科珍基礎的"},{"start":3469.557,"end":3489.942,"text":"10%的對等關稅在原本既有輸美的稅率上面在額外課徵這10%那不過呢又針對了另外的其他國家包括台灣在內課徵11%到50%不等的個別對等關稅而台灣是32%那不過呢美國為了要給予各國可以有談判的期間來處理這些對等關稅"},{"start":3493.544,"end":3521.06,"text":"進一步降低然後以及改善貿易逆差的問題所以他給予我們90天的這個暫緩談判期那暫緩的這個就是提高個別的對等關稅直到7月8號那不過就在7月7號的時候川普總統他簽發了新的行政命令而這個行政命令把10%的暫行關稅延長到8月1號讓各國可以有更長的時間跟美國繼續完成談判"},{"start":3521.96,"end":3547.146,"text":"那同時間美國也在7月7號陸續的對25個以上的貿易對手國至今為止我們看到是25個貿易對手國那其中歐盟如果我們算一個總共就是25個那其中稅率高於原本川普在4月2號所訂的關稅的包括有像日本馬來西亞以及原本沒有對等關稅的加拿大墨西哥"},{"start":3548.496,"end":3573.838,"text":"那不過我們觀察目前美國現在所祭出薪稅率性寒的處理方式他比較著重在全盤性的考量當然特別著重在所謂貿易逆差的部分7月8號這個期限之前跟美國的談判進度看起來他跟他祭出性寒的做法並沒有必然的關係或有"},{"start":3574.238,"end":3588.59,"text":"也不具有一致性因為舉例而言我們所看到的柬埔寨他在7月4號宣布跟美國已經完成談判歐盟也在7月2號有提到他們已經跟美國進入了所謂原則性協議但是這些國家"},{"start":3589.611,"end":3615.188,"text":"還是拿到了關稅信函也拿到了新的稅率可是反觀越南是美國宣布已經跟他完成談判卻沒有拿到這個關稅信函的通知所以我們這邊要提醒大家讓各位了解的就是美國現在寄出信函但是因為談判仍然繼續在進行當中所以這個稅率並不是各國的最終稅率"},{"start":3616.189,"end":3626.708,"text":"那美國看起來去祭出這個信函可能或許還是在增加各國在8月1號以前完成跟美國談判的談判動能跟力道"},{"start":3627.847,"end":3652.385,"text":"那第二個部分我們所看到的現在台美對等關稅的談判進展台灣是美國首波的談判對象那我們在四月初開始展開談判之後由行政院副院長鄭麗君率領了經貿談判辦公室經濟部農業部衛福部財政部國安會等各個單位參與那美國是由美國貿易代表署USTR負責"},{"start":3653.936,"end":3664.722,"text":"必要的時候由商務部等單位參與那我們也分別在5月6月7月進行了三次的實體協商以及數次的這個視訊的會議那我們雙方團隊都肯認談判持續推進"},{"start":3669.805,"end":3697.087,"text":"也都希望可以在8月1號以前完成談判那目前已經初步約定了下一次的實體談判的時程那我們在這個對等談判的過程當中基本上我們依據賴總統的指示我們秉持國家產業利益維護國民健康、糧食安全以及我們會針對台灣關切的這些經貿合作議題進行協商首先在關稅的議題上面我們不斷地跟美國"},{"start":3698.288,"end":3705.536,"text":"呼籲及說明我們的貿易逆差的形成實際上是來自於我們的產業高度互補性所以在這個關稅議題的討論上面我們依然會堅持台灣的產業利益"},{"start":3710.7,"end":3736.82,"text":"在貿易障礙的議題上面我們持續的美國會提出對台灣的一些貿易關切但是我們也一樣以維護國民健康符合科學政經及國際標準的情況之下來捍衛台灣的利益此外呢在優化經貿體制上面這個是符合雙方的共同利益所以我們在貿易便捷化擴大電子通關的作業"},{"start":3737.941,"end":3756.464,"text":"良好法治作業上面在我們過去台美21世紀貿易倉儀的基礎上持續來推進我們台美之間的討論此外強化供應鏈韌性實際上也符合台灣的國家跟產業利益所以我們會針對這些可以促進台灣"},{"start":3757.503,"end":3786.218,"text":"供應鏈緊密合作向違規轉運箱共同打擊稀產地高科技的出口管制跟投資安全提出了精進的做法此外呢我想有助於台灣的長期產業的互補性我們會促進雙邊的投資透過這樣子的一個協商實際上可以增進彼此的共融發展那最終提到我國的談判的因應策略"},{"start":3787.128,"end":3816.119,"text":"我想美國展開這個對等貿易談判的目的是為了要追求貿易平衡的關係那但是我們也非常重視我們跟美方的長期經貿合作的發展所以對台灣來說我們希望可以尋求透過這個談判來降低我們產業界可能在對等關稅上會受到的衝擊所以我們行政院已經提出了因應美國關稅我國出口供應鏈支持方案來提供"},{"start":3817.999,"end":3833.68,"text":"產業界最好的後盾此外呢我們也希望藉由這次的美國談判來營造台美的高科技的戰略夥伴關係那希望我們可以形塑所謂台灣加美國的這個供應業性佈局此外呢我想"},{"start":3835.407,"end":3859.137,"text":"我们要去协助我们的业者调整海外的产业基地希望可以走到立足台湾布局全球加强美国行销全世界的我们的基础目标最终我们想要强调的是本次的对等关税谈判实际上不是一个传统的贸易谈判而通常的传统贸易谈判"},{"start":3859.777,"end":3888.019,"text":"需要經過兩到三年的這樣的一個時間但是這一次因為美國急於要去完成這些對等關稅談判降低貿易逆差實現它的再工業化所以很多的方式都加速了整個談判的時程我想很多國家包括我國在內都面臨了這些不確定性的談判挑戰不過呢我們會秉持著善意持續推進這些談判我們的目的就是為"},{"start":3888.799,"end":3894.701,"text":"台灣的經濟打開更寬廣的道路以上報告經濟主席跟各位指教謝謝其他相關機關報告請參閱書面的資料那現在我們開始尋答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點半"},{"start":3910.874,"end":3911.354,"text":"主席麻煩有請這個"},{"start":3941.144,"end":3945.87,"text":"行政院经贸谈判办公室的副总代表严律师"},{"start":3954.454,"end":3974.343,"text":"我也好副总代表您好刚刚听取了您的报告我个人非常印象深刻也有相同的触感这一次川普总统发起了全球性的对等关税要求所有的国家在期限内要达成他所设计的目标"},{"start":3975.303,"end":3999.733,"text":"對中華民國來講我們在台灣也承受了很大的壓力所以這次談判的過程中間我相信不只是以行政院的談判代表辦公室包括我們的跨部會所有專業的人才都共同參與但因為這個時間很短促所以在談判過程中如您剛才講的過去一個貿易談判可能兩年到三年這次在這麼短暫的時間內"},{"start":4001.894,"end":4026.221,"text":"要做出一個決定這個就是說到底我們能承受的底線在哪裡因為川普總統是貿易商人出身他的談判是非常專業有經驗所以我現在第一個就把他的思維邏輯把它decompose就如同你講的東西在這個裡面已經列選出來的第一個"},{"start":4027.725,"end":4052.224,"text":"他的策略邏輯他本質已經講了這個對等關稅不僅是經濟問題是國安問題您剛剛也聽到了但是當川普講到的國安的時候他是把地緣經濟地緣政治地緣戰略全部融入到他的思考領域所以如果我們還在用經濟範圍來說練談的時候可能就會自己把他底線限制住了"},{"start":4053.138,"end":4071.998,"text":"我举例来讲我们美国要求我们要大幅增加国会议员团全世界都一样未来短期内我们要增加到GDP3%这个数额非常大过去我们跟美国在军事上采购的东西我们每年花多少亿美金但是这里面包括了"},{"start":4073.027,"end":4096.004,"text":"所謂的軍售FMSDCSMF還有所謂的總統的特別授權PDA但是後面的料配件還是要付錢像這些東西如果未來在國防預算採購經費持續增加我提供建議就是未來的我們代表能不能把這個向美國採購硬體裝備的錢去抵銷我們的"},{"start":4102.296,"end":4114.694,"text":"對美貿易的順差這樣子他來條件上要求就可以降低一點第二個美國的方法在川普總統我不評對個人我只用方法論他的邏輯思維預設立場一對一"},{"start":4117.95,"end":4145.288,"text":"威權主導掌握全局所以他提出來的對等關稅開放市場要加大投資加大軍購但制裁是選項所以他的手段他實際上有十個步驟如果我們每次只是根據一個去做回應所以談到第三階段第四階段你的底線可能就被逼出來了所以強迫坐上談判桌脅迫對手接受條件然後階段是好緩和氣氛然後再回到桌上"},{"start":4145.908,"end":4173.866,"text":"回到桌上以後就強硬態度破局這個時候就把談判對手的底線慢慢挖出來然後又回過頭來對你示好這個條件可以移讓對手可以讓步最後調整談判底線他的結果是美方是贏家這個過程中間我希望不是純粹以經濟貿易來看你可能要把整個地緣政治地緣戰略的問題納入思考那我們下一張圖就把這張圖"},{"start":4175.027,"end":4198.175,"text":"這個是解析強權競合尤其是美中競合印太經濟架構跟一帶一路這個是從川普第45任到拜登第46任到現在進入47任以後他們玩的這個戰略的手法這個就包括地緣政治地緣經濟地緣戰略的組合權各位看一下"},{"start":4200.444,"end":4223.785,"text":"前面是他對你友好他會設立使館加入國際組織交換到開始要平衡貿易赤字關稅問題與外交商務談判可以合併談懲罰性關稅這個一路下去到退出巴黎氣候協定這個地緣結盟分享這裡面有將近20個item它是可以前後調節的"},{"start":4225.026,"end":4242.671,"text":"所以他會你如果不能看到全貌只是針對他剛才的那個現在呢我們再把他剛才的這個套進去去對應其中的某一項比方講這個美債了美債可以脫了利益不會讓啊這個其他的這個"},{"start":4244.091,"end":4263.106,"text":"外匯啊匯率啊美元啊他可以操縱但我們只能怎麼只能做因應因為籌碼不在手上沒有意義可是有一個戰略觀的全局那你對美方出招你就可以了解到他是什麼樣的方法這樣子我們所有參與談判的代表就有一些"},{"start":4264.298,"end":4279.487,"text":"底线可以思考不要过早把我们的底线亮出来那这个刚才您都谈了这个国家的经济发展战略立足台湾布局全球加强美国行销事件我们有愿景有承诺有目标方法手段"},{"start":4280.882,"end":4297.548,"text":"那这个呢台美对等关税作为您刚刚也提到了我们这个人民的关切问题总统也强调了因应要维护国家利益维护产业利益维护国民健康维护良善权您都提到了我也配合您的方法做出一个支持的论述"},{"start":4298.248,"end":4313.622,"text":"所以我們是希望什麼共同努力持續強化但是要找出我結構性不夠完整的地方跨部會內部協同在開會的過程中就不會把我們的底線老本一下子掏光因為談判的過程前面全部是順義"},{"start":4314.463,"end":4340.134,"text":"後面呢Terms and ConditionsProvisor如果沒有搞清楚之前先答應了你會吃大虧所以總統提出因應措施推動台美雙邊關稅擴大對美商品軍備採購強化對美投資承諾解除所有非專會障礙您特別講到了非關稅障礙還有這個技術性的障礙關鍵障礙這個都是專業性的東西要跨部會協商"},{"start":4342.576,"end":4347.379,"text":"賴總統提出的重點我們都把它列出來了最主要就是有一個"},{"start":4349.54,"end":4373.249,"text":"美国232条的调查范围因为我们很大的量苏美产品是在这个限制之内这个是属于专业的谈判那一般的我们的老百姓也不太了解要花很多的功夫所以今天在这个场合我并没有要我们的所有与会的政府官员去把底线谈出来我们提出的是建言如何强化如何能够做得最好"},{"start":4374.369,"end":4398.437,"text":"這個東西我們把它做一個參考那我想聽聽您對我剛才上面所提的建言做一個簡短的回應謝謝委員我想委員所提到的實際上是我們整個由鄭麗君副院長所領導的台北金包團隊我們在持續準備當中會盡我們的全力然後也把您所想到的東西也都納入思考"},{"start":4399.137,"end":4416.778,"text":"不過我簡單的說明一下針對您剛所提到的問題就是現在美國的這個政策上面有沒有考慮到地緣政治我們不便去幫美國的政策去做評論但是我想國安會是我們的談判團隊所以我相信國安會會思考到這些相關的問題"},{"start":4419,"end":4423.864,"text":"那您提到的這些所謂的戰略觀我們必須要針對很多的專業技術性問題去進行跨部會的協商那從台美經貿工作小組的鄭麗君副院長這個主持以來我們這些個別的議題都會找相關的部會來了解他們對這議題的立場"},{"start":4437.634,"end":4452.326,"text":"那針對您剛才特別提到的232的問題我想232跟對等關稅他想要去處理的問題的目的是不同的那特別是我們現在在談的對等關稅實際上是主要的主責單位是USTR那他是處理對等關稅而232的議題是屬於商務部所主導"},{"start":4455.709,"end":4476.99,"text":"可是因為我們在談判的過程當中我們實際上也會透過多次的會晤跟協商的過程去向商務部表達我們232對台灣產業的影響以及不利於台灣跟美國未來的供應鏈產業的發展所以這些議題我們都一併在談判團隊裡面有進行綜合性的思考所以以上先跟委員報告"},{"start":4478.999,"end":4500.466,"text":"謝謝您的說明我也特別強調基於國家的利益我們提出的是做建言或許某些地方我們還有努力的空間但是作為一個團隊來講共同為了維護台灣的國家利益我們要一起努力也謝謝我們與會團隊所有人努力謝謝謝謝陳永康委員質詢接下來由羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":4514.257,"end":4518.902,"text":"謝謝主席有請行政院經貿辦袁惠信副總談判代表委員好"},{"start":4529.303,"end":4553.179,"text":"副總代表好今天的詢答成如早上我們王定宇委員所提議的那莊委也做了這個才是待會針對委員的這個詢答如果您覺得說這是跟這個機密有關係或是不方便在這個詢答台上面來說明的話就直接就說這不方便回答我們今天就秉持這個規則"},{"start":4555.14,"end":4568.956,"text":"好 那從這個7月7號開始呢美國總統川普已經陸陸續續對25個以上的這個主要的貿易夥伴發布了最新的關稅通知函其中有包含剛剛你所說的像日本、馬來西亞等國"},{"start":4570.738,"end":4584.97,"text":"然後這些國家的課徵的稅率但是介於百分之二十到百分之五十之間不等可是到目前為止確實就是美國對台灣的關稅稅率到目前為止都還沒有公佈那當然國人是非常非常的關注"},{"start":4586.391,"end":4609.544,"text":"那我們也知道說從啟動對等這個關稅談判以來呢台美雙方我們也是進行了三次的這個實體的會談還有六次的線上的切磋跟這個溝通那剛剛你也提到就是說下次的這個實體會談呢已經有定定的時間請問這個時間是落在什麼時候因為希望說八月一號就希望有一個結果嘛那現在呢下次的會談時間是在什麼時候"},{"start":4612.034,"end":4633.406,"text":"我們剛才所提到的是說我們有初步約定了 下一次會再進行實體諮商但是我們當然這個期限 我也可以理解應該現在所有的各國都在排隊要跟美國進行談判所以我們就是努力在8月1號以前爭取跟美國不論各種形式就是要再進行諮商 目的就是要在8月1號以前達到協議"},{"start":4634.563,"end":4655.201,"text":"因為現在已經7月16號今天那當然還可能是剩下兩個禮拜的時間我想這個是不是也是屬於不方便回答的部分其實已經有一個確實的時間了一定會在8月1號以前會計時的時間8月1號是確定的時間是是OK好那我們已經談了這麼多次那台灣目前呢所提出的條件是不是"},{"start":4656.002,"end":4670.878,"text":"足以讓美方認定就是說我們是一個有誠意值得談的這個夥伴我想說已經談了這麼多次了嘛那談判的這個過程當中到底是朝正向樂觀的方向發展還是當中有一些什麼阻礙"},{"start":4671.619,"end":4685.835,"text":"到底因為很多國家都公布的這個推理那我們這麼晚再公布到底是好呢還是不好這個部分是因為有很多阻礙所以還需要談談還是說其實其實很順利只是說還有很多細節需要再詳談這到底是一個怎麼樣的一個方向"},{"start":4687.737,"end":4708.451,"text":"樂觀嗎跟委員報告我們現在目前還沒有收到這個關稅信函但是如同我剛才有稍微說明的這個關稅信函本身並不是各國的最終稅率所以不論台灣有沒有收到這個信函我們的目標都是在8月1號以前努力的在我們這個關鍵一里路上面跟美國進行衝刺進行我們最後的談判"},{"start":4709.131,"end":4737.896,"text":"目的就是在8月1號取得符合罪符合我們的產業跟國家利益的這個關稅所以我想現在有沒有收到信函都不代表我們現在跟美國談判的這個進展的情況但是我必須要強調的是我們實際上台美的談判團隊雙方都是肯認我們談判是有進展的因此我們也才會約定說我們要盡快在8月1號以前來把這個所有現在還沒有完成的議題"},{"start":4738.677,"end":4739.741,"text":"可以在8月1號完成進行我們的協議"},{"start":4742.225,"end":4767.076,"text":"所以基本上到目前為止談的其實還算是順利的意思嘛對不對是這樣子的方向是樂觀的是好那再來就是在台美關稅談判當中當然我也國人也很關心媒體也一直在報導就是有關於進口車跟保健食品的這部分消費者其實是非常的這個關心那像外界傳言就是說美方要求美制進口車整車的關稅是由現在的17.5%要一次降到2.5%或是"},{"start":4772.699,"end":4780.769,"text":"而且是排除要緩降這個在談判過程當中有提到嗎?這方便透露嗎?謝謝委員的提問我想這個問題就是屬於我們台灣跟美國之間這個國際談判動態的過程發展上"},{"start":4787.777,"end":4814.978,"text":"可能都還是要保密的過程這是還保密的部分那再來下面可能都是保密的部分本來我想要問的就是說像台灣我目前是採用聯合國歐洲經濟委員會的汽車安全的這個標準可是美國採用的是他們的這個美國聯邦車輛安全標準目前是不一樣的我本來想了解這個談判當中有沒有再提到這個部分未來是不是要放寬所以這個部分也不方便透露"},{"start":4816.158,"end":4830.704,"text":"具體議題本身我們當然不變透露但是我覺得我們可以回歸到美國在進行這個對等關稅談判的目的就是任何他覺得可以去擴大他的出口商機強化他的貿易競爭力的當然他都會想要進一步去討論但是我想台灣有台灣的堅持所以我們台灣依然會堅持我們要維護我們的產業跟國家利益那國民健康糧食安全都是我們在談判的基本原則"},{"start":4845.169,"end":4866.579,"text":"所以像這個保健食品也是一樣嘛像過去我們現在目前的進口關稅百分之三十那過去那個財政部呢說三月二十七號他曾經就提到就是說五年內要慢慢的緩降就降到百分之二十這看起來好像也是美國這方面應該也是蠻有意見的吧這應該也是在談判過程當中比較有阻礙的地方是不是"},{"start":4867.658,"end":4883.48,"text":"我想这个就是我刚才所提到的,我想美国基本上就是它可以强化它的出口竞争力的议题,它一定都有高度的兴趣,但是每一个国家要诉求的目标是不同的,所以我想它就是一个持续讨论中的议题。"},{"start":4884.195,"end":4904.305,"text":"OK 好 謝謝 我再想真的很謝謝各位談判代表這段時間也真的是非常的辛苦了當然未來我們希望就是朝向就是說互惠互利然後呢以國家的最大利益作為談判最終的這個結果啦OK 好 以上謝謝 請回座那再來我想請外交部陳明綺次長"},{"start":4914.622,"end":4927.888,"text":"委員您好次長早 次長這次我們有看到巴西雖然是美國對巴西它的貿易是粗糙的可是呢我們就發現說呢它的稅率呢從剛開始的10%只是調升到50%跟一般經貿利益的邏輯其實是不符的"},{"start":4934.531,"end":4953.205,"text":"那當然川普他公開的理由就是說不滿巴西的前總統Polsonaro他遭到這個起訴那事實上呢外界也在推測說是因為川普政府是質疑巴西的反美立場剛剛有提到所謂的金磚國家的一些反美的這個言論所以造成這個這次雖然說巴西是美國的出超國"},{"start":4957.088,"end":4966.398,"text":"可是呢他的稅率居然調高到50%那當然我們也在擔心像國內其實也有一些反美論、疑美論這些會不會影響說我們在談判過程的一個障礙請問市長我們有這個疑論"},{"start":4973.286,"end":5001.792,"text":"就我們的了解就是說當然台灣展現最大誠意然後在考量剛才所說的這個國家利益產業利益維護國人的這個健康以及這個糧食安全上面然後本著互惠互利的原則跟美方進行談判那我想這樣的一個誠意美方有充分的感受到他有充分的感受到我們在所有的關鍵的這個上面都已經有具體的一個進展那麼當然在整個時程上面談判貿易談判從來不是一個容易的事情"},{"start":5002.532,"end":5011.785,"text":"尤其在這個過去的時候可能是數年才能夠完成的貿易談判等於是要壓縮到這個幾個月的時間喔那麼還有很多的這個部分還帶雙方的溝通協商"},{"start":5014.172,"end":5036.347,"text":"所以美方他是理解的 理解說台灣政府的這個立場那當然我們在巴西其實還是有一些台商他們在那裡有像這個醫材的工廠或是電子零組件製造業等等那像這些巴西的台商會面臨一些困境像這部分的話台灣政府能做點什麼呢"},{"start":5036.727,"end":5054.669,"text":"那麼我們密切關注相關的這個東西我們隨時也跟我們的這個海外的這個台商保持聯繫那麼協助他們減款相關的一個衝擊那麼如果他們有覺得需要那麼轉移這個生產的這個位置的話我們也會盡最大的努力來做協助"},{"start":5055.189,"end":5071.773,"text":"比如說巴西遇到高額的關稅,如果有台商想要遷移到巴拉圭,我們會盡全力的協助。現在我們在巴拉圭也有台巴智慧科學園區。所以我們是一個全球佈局的狀況,外交部在這個上面,"},{"start":5079.255,"end":5098.176,"text":"提供最大的一個協助那我們隨時跟台商有保持密切的溝通跟聯繫然後這個能夠希望能夠這個協助我們台商然後面對到這個全球的這個政治經濟的形勢的不確定性我們外交部可以提供相關的資訊協助台商來因應"},{"start":5098.977,"end":5117.058,"text":"是 我們不但要關心台美之間的談判我們更要關心我們台上所處的這些國家他們面臨的這些衝擊我想外交部這部分要多加用心OK 好 以上謝謝謝謝羅敏玲委員也謝謝陳次長答詢下面我們請黃仁委員質詢"},{"start":5127.609,"end":5153.164,"text":"謝主席,有請外交部及經貿談判代表市長,顏主席我也好市長好,那根據就是我們今天在媒體的報導裡面賴總統將於八月份的出訪到中南美洲友邦並過境紐約及達瓦斯"},{"start":5156.959,"end":5158.122,"text":"這個行程安排是否已經確定"},{"start":5160.615,"end":5187.028,"text":"根據總統府昨天說我們要是有確切的安排總統府統一對外的說明會儘早的對外說明好 本席關心這個行程的目的尤其是媒體的報導中提到賴總統可能在行程當中宣布向美國大規模的採購民航客機請問一下向美大規模採購民航客機是否已經確定這一次對於關稅談判的籌碼之一"},{"start":5190.61,"end":5210.641,"text":"還是我方在台積電和天然氣外又一次單方面向美國示好所以本期看來最後的關稅額度到底傳言是百分之十、百分之十五、百分之二十還是也維持百分之三十二這個部分"},{"start":5212.142,"end":5229.03,"text":"第一個是說我們對於這個最終的一個稅率我們不做猜測但是我們一定協助行政院的經貿團隊那麼盡全力的跟美方溝通能夠取得互利互惠的根據這個互利互惠的原則上面爭取最低的一個稅率對我國產業對我們的這個國家利益最少的這個衝擊"},{"start":5234.133,"end":5249.154,"text":"那麼第二個是說是不是各種各樣的採購案除了我們已經宣布的之外是不是還有新的採購案我想這還是在雙方的談判的過程那麼我們不變這個對外透露像剛才陳永康委員也有提的很清楚在裡面稱得到"},{"start":5249.714,"end":5270.649,"text":"很多的細微的部分很抱歉在上面我們不太方便在這個時候推翻跟美方達成的一些共識那麼提供更完整的資訊但是誠意一定都在現在在普羅大眾現在的想法什麼關稅好像已經不是重點"},{"start":5271.829,"end":5299.693,"text":"主要的原因有兩點第一個在我國匯率短期狂升在15%以後台灣的中小企業早已經活不下去更慘所以即使關稅只有10%企業面對的還是沒有最慘只有更慘都是死路一條所以今天我們要談的談的什麼"},{"start":5301.819,"end":5325.052,"text":"從公布國家稅例看來,稅例只是川普政策的一個功績美國正在做的是用此功績逼迫各國百分之百的滿足其需求所謂的談判根本不是談判,而是單向單向輸送利益給美國所以本席不會問今天關稅有多少"},{"start":5325.552,"end":5342.426,"text":"而是要問我們付出的代價是什麼那請問一下我們經貿我們經貿的代表回答一下目前已經確定付出的代價有哪些項目經貿可能你們可能會認為說不方便透露"},{"start":5343.707,"end":5367.215,"text":"但是今天我要提的是本席問已經是確定的項目既然已經確定就不會影響談判的結果比如要擴大經購台積電、赴美、天然氣易購、惠利狂升都是已經確定的那你後面還有什麼跟美國將來以後對我們國內要求的什麼樣的一個問題"},{"start":5371.149,"end":5385.434,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我想第一個我先澄清的匯率問題不在我們台美經貿工作小組的談判範圍因為從我們的對口是貿易代表署USTR以及商務部是我們主要也要敗匯的對象"},{"start":5386.474,"end":5410.549,"text":"就知道匯率不是我們處理的議題所以首先澄清這個問題第二個就是您提到我們有沒有一些已經確定的共識我想任何的談判它的討論過程都是沒有一個議題只要有一個議題還沒有確定所有的議題都沒有達到共識所以現在我們不能在沒有達到最後的共識之前我們現在沒有一個議題"},{"start":5411.73,"end":5437.019,"text":"是已經可以確定然後可以在這個現階段來進行透露的所以這個還要請委員見諒台灣的中小企業已經快活不下去了所以這個部分你們要審慎的對我們的整個的稅率包含我們的關稅一定要著重在以台灣國內生存之際最重要那另外就是我想請問一下我們國安局"},{"start":5445.919,"end":5449.923,"text":"目前總統府放出總統已在華府經貿談判團隊四星會議照片中結果代表團"},{"start":5467.315,"end":5483.027,"text":"代表團中出現了我們國安局長那引發不少的質疑那根據國安局國家安全局組織法第三條國安局的職責範疇是勤收、勤研、正副總統安全等情報"},{"start":5483.747,"end":5504.321,"text":"和安全工作因此對國安局長出現在經貿談判的團隊中不免引發大家的一個好奇請問一下我們副局長蔡局長為經貿談判代表團的陳言原因是什麼之前沒有發生過這一次為什麼有那麼特別"},{"start":5505.822,"end":5530.097,"text":"國安局你來回答一下是我想國安局蔡局長接同經貿談判代表來參加這個談判那我想國安局他所負責的面向除了剛剛我們所講的這些經濟安全經貿安全是國安局的一環所以是提供我們經貿這個安全經貿安全這個專業來給那個小組來做相關的一個執行"},{"start":5535,"end":5556.148,"text":"而是他的目的是在這裡好那如果是這一次這麼大的一個層面去的應該是國安會的秘書長那局長代表團陳彥之一是不是表示在對美談判的中我國除了要付出經貿的代價外"},{"start":5556.828,"end":5572.384,"text":"還要付出一個政治的代價這個政治代價是什麼根據國安局過去曾多次表示台美情報交流緊密順暢所以這個代價不是情資提供所以這樣的一個過程裡面應該是國安會的秘書長來代表才對啊"},{"start":5580.233,"end":5594.741,"text":"我想這個是由國安會是談判小組的一員他的一個成員那國安局當然在國安會底下那接受到指派都是有可能來參加這個談判好那請問一下我們金茂這個談判代表"},{"start":5610.314,"end":5621.184,"text":"既然我們國家安全局長為談判團隊的成員美國的談判代表中有沒有美國情報部門的相應代表"},{"start":5624.015,"end":5642.092,"text":"那個報告委員我想我們談判代表的組成他也是基本上也是有默契大家不揭露這些問題因為他實際上也代表了我們可能如果說沒有美國情報部門的這個相應代表的話那我們國安局局長去那邊就沒有意義了是吧"},{"start":5643.499,"end":5657.206,"text":"我想剛才國安局我們的副局長有提到他們是有提供這些跟經濟安全有關的資訊一般而言,勤之機關所長的出國行程都是一個保密的例如之前曾經發生過"},{"start":5658.807,"end":5685.248,"text":"陳明通局長前局長任內出訪泰國前政戰局長檢視為赴夏威夷行程遭大陸媒體曝光當時國內一片嘩然甚至有媒體說匪諜就在你身邊請問一下副局長總統府曝光國安局長在美國這樣的一個場合合適嗎難道不是匪諜就在總統府嗎"},{"start":5687.153,"end":5706.207,"text":"我想這個國安局他參加這個談判的成員是有他的一個用意存在啦我剛剛的報告就是經濟安全經貿安全是我們的一個禽收員的一個重要工作提供給談判小組做諮詢這邊再說明一下"},{"start":5708.328,"end":5722.835,"text":"如果我們國家安全局長有赴美代表談判的一個成員之一也應該有美國情報相關單位來列席這才是一個對等的一個談判這樣對國內來講"},{"start":5726.497,"end":5744.931,"text":"或許會有一點交代可是總統府將曝光了我們國安局長因為這是一個保密嘛好不好這一點是來跟你們提示這樣的一個問題所在好 以上謝謝副局長 副總台辦代表謝謝黃仁委員下面我們請徐孝興委員質詢"},{"start":5765.814,"end":5773.239,"text":"謝謝主席那我們先請這個行政院經貿辦公室的副總談判代表 嚴代表"},{"start":5778.834,"end":5805.143,"text":"我想先请问一下您刚刚在回答其他委员的问题的时候那我听到您说产业支持方案你们编列预算是大概900多亿左右但是我很好奇你们都还不知道谈判的最后结果以及各个产业要付出什么样的代价那怎么就会已经规划出来支持方案只需要900多亿呢这个经费是怎么样规划出来的呀"},{"start":5806.315,"end":5826.967,"text":"跟委員報告這個經費在指的是我們當初4月11號院長去這個立法院做專案報告的時候因為我們有預先做評估台灣面對美國的對等關稅我們以低、中、高三種情境來評估那高的情境就是我們現在所面臨可能是32%的關稅的情況之下那我們請農工部會去評估好所以你認為在"},{"start":5833.511,"end":5858.087,"text":"原本的三十幾趴的匯率的這個 對不起三十幾趴的這個關稅的這個狀況之下支持產業方案只需要九百多億喔好 那接下來站在國人的角度呢對於政府在關稅上的談判可以說是非常焦慮的在我這裡也收到很多包含中小企業跟農民的陳情喔那政府在關稅上的談判可以說非常不透明"},{"start":5858.547,"end":5882.092,"text":"相对于比如说像是日本来讲那让我们的民众企业是很不知所措的比如说我举例以日本来说他们的政府人员呢包含赴美谈判的次数谈判涉及的东西范围红线基本态度以及美方对日方开出的条件谈判难度都有公开的让日本的民众产业知道我再举个例子"},{"start":5882.492,"end":5903.406,"text":"日本堅持全面協議強調汽車關稅必須納入談判範圍以及農產品上面對稻米的進口問題上面堅守底線所以我想要問一下台灣方面我們有沒有哪一些底線是可以公開告訴大眾我們現在就是要堅守不放的"},{"start":5904.704,"end":5930.399,"text":"好 謝謝委員 跟委員回報像每個國家 實際上跟美國都有相關的國際談判的保密的義務所以呢 台灣也是有同樣的義務那日本沒有嗎所以像日本 韓國 實際上他們也都沒有揭露太多的他沒有揭露 但他有講到的是說哪一些談判是他們底線他要告訴他的國民 他要告訴這些產業我們一定會保護你"},{"start":5931.503,"end":5932.064,"text":"那我們現在請農業部"},{"start":5949.09,"end":5962.547,"text":"好那麼呢剛才談到糧食我們可以看到最近美國陸續給出新的關稅稅率有些國家他是有巨大的妥協才換取到稅率的降低以美國跟印尼最新達成的協議為例"},{"start":5964.269,"end":5982.892,"text":"印尼首次向美国开放超过2.8亿人口的市场并且承诺采购150亿美元的能源45亿美元的农产品以及50架的波音飞机还有包含美国对印尼的出口即将是免关税无关税壁垒的"},{"start":5983.413,"end":6007.492,"text":"那類似這樣子的情況所以讓他們的這個關稅的原稅率能夠下降那以此呢可以推測這個談判的美國在意的六大重點比如關稅與配額非關稅跟貿易障礙原產地的原則保證採購跟保證投資勞工跟環境保護以及保證國防預算那我想問農業部這個部分"},{"start":6008.132,"end":6020.615,"text":"我之前有向外交部質詢過有關於為了鞏固跟巴拉圭的這個外交關係所以我們把巴拉圭的關稅豬肉降到零關稅當時就有非常多的豬農來抗議所以當時林佳龍部長也承諾會再去跟豬農溝通因為這個影響到豬農非常大的利益所以我想要請問一下就是我們在我們在談判的部分"},{"start":6036.238,"end":6061.21,"text":"那美方這裡有談到先前公開的這個訊息有談到第一個希望針對這個萊克多巴胺的豬肉美國進口的這個豬肉還有牛肉不再進行產地的標示第二個部分是關於基因改造食品的進口第三個部分是農產品的領關稅所以我想要請教一下包含是我們談判代表跟農業部請問這三項我們會堅持嗎"},{"start":6066.053,"end":6079.609,"text":"謝謝委員關心也支持台灣農業那我想就農業部的立場其實是清楚的台灣跟美國的農產品貿易其實是非常密切的台灣是美國第八大的農產品出口國對但是我們是賺他們的錢對不對"},{"start":6081.772,"end":6093.145,"text":"美國是我們第一大農產品的出口國所以雙方的農業貿易是非常密切的我知道我知道但是我們的進出口我們的這個互動有分成我們賺他們的錢跟他們賺我們的錢你剛剛所說的是我們賺他的錢對吧"},{"start":6096.769,"end":6118.801,"text":"他是我們的第一大貿易出口國我們出口到那邊是8.9億對嘛所以他們一直希望說能夠平衡所以我們賣給對方出口越多他們對我們就會越不滿就會越希望能夠降低這個稅率甚至能夠開放到零稅率所以我剛剛的這個問題非常的清楚就是三件事情"},{"start":6119.121,"end":6146.642,"text":"第一個基因改造食品的進入第二個針對美國的豬肉跟牛肉不用再標示第三個農產品上面尤其對於我們台灣養豬業者可以說非常多是否會對美國提出零關稅這三點我沒有要求就是你們要告訴我們說是不是要這麼做我是問這三點上面我們的談判貿易代表我們的農業部有沒有堅持"},{"start":6148.403,"end":6171.223,"text":"就臺灣農業部來講 我絕對只是支持我們國內的那我要問一下談判代表這三點 我們臺灣是否堅持到底我想我們臺灣有哪一些敏感產業 敏感產品我們很清楚臺灣的產業利益所在所以我想我們會堅持產業的利益這三點 是嗎我剛剛提的這三點 我再提一次第一個叫做呢 我們的這個"},{"start":6172.785,"end":6191.025,"text":"基因改造食品的进入第二个叫做我们的猪肉牛肉从美方进口的标识要取消第三点叫做我们的农产品包含是猪肉牛肉对美国实施零关税这三点请问我们的贸易代表会不会坚持到底"},{"start":6191.756,"end":6217.154,"text":"我想委員提出來的是美方的利益所在所以美方在談判當中他當然都可能會觸及到這些議題我問的是我國的立場我不在意美方我不在意美方的立場因為他們已經公佈了我在意的是我們有沒有這條底線去守護我們的農民因為現在的農民可以說是非常非常的緊張所以像是日本他們就有直接的告訴民眾說會在這個部分堅守底線那請問台灣有沒有這樣子對農民的承諾"},{"start":6221.909,"end":6232.949,"text":"我想我們的農業部我們的行政團隊對我們的農民對我們的產業都有承諾就是我們一定會捍衛產業的好所以我可以理解成這三項我們在談判後我們不會讓它實行可以嗎"},{"start":6235.729,"end":6254.943,"text":"我想這個都涉及到最後的共識了我們的底線在哪邊?要不要保護農民?保護農民是必然的但我剛剛講的這三點就是農民最在意的事情農民最在意的事情能不能夠被保護今天這就是我問您的問題"},{"start":6256.351,"end":6281.218,"text":"是 對 所以我想我們一定會堅守產業國家利益OK 好 所以這三點我希望到時候在整個關稅出來之後不是讓農民付出剛剛我以上三點的代價我們現在是在公開的一個質詢的一個舞台上面那我也希望說今天的這個會議紀錄下面接下來我們看到的這三點不會發生那謝謝農業部那接下來我想要請這個經濟部"},{"start":6285.492,"end":6288.854,"text":"看到你們的說明我們接下來要跟阿拉斯加買天然氣那這個價格也並不算便宜那現在呢一個議題呢是在討論說我們要撥補一千億給台電那既然撥補一千億給台電那我們接下來要買的是更貴的LNG"},{"start":6312.009,"end":6334.657,"text":"會的這個天然氣那勢必沒有辦法讓台電買到更便宜的電的時候那我們的這個財務黑洞只會繼續而已那請問台電你們的了解台電對於這個增加買LNG的預算會導致台電的經營狀況可能越來越差這件事情有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":6335.891,"end":6350.656,"text":"謝謝委員關心首先就阿拉斯加部分我們在今年的三月份是有中油跟阿拉斯加有簽訂一個合作的意向書那阿拉斯加這邊是委託一個民間的公司在做所以我們現在是有"},{"start":6351.196,"end":6375.076,"text":"跟阿拉斯加來這間民間公司在做相關的協議所以這個部分呢應該是以中油的業務為主的一樣嘛這中油的這個油價然後再來就會反映到電價上面嘛這個東西油跟電它們其實是有關係的嘛那我要講的事情是比如我們先前跟澳洲採購了許多的天然氣它相對的價格就是比阿拉斯加來得便宜"},{"start":6375.476,"end":6389.452,"text":"便宜多少我想我今天不需要在這個質詢上面跟大家說詳細的數字那大家都是知道的所以呢好我們今天採購澳洲的這個天然氣比採購阿拉斯加的天然氣還要貴的情況之下那"},{"start":6390.513,"end":6408.4,"text":"如何去減少可能的虧損因為不管今天你是中油或是台電如果這個財務黑洞越來越大那不管今天補貼多少錢都沒有用它就是一個黑洞比如說像是台電來講我們已經補貼了三千億了但是仍然漲了三次電價加上產業漲了四次電價"},{"start":6410.481,"end":6418.43,"text":"那如果因為我們採購的價格更高昂了所以呢相關的包含中油跟台電的他的整個規劃的這個品質他們的這個財政上面來說是雪上加霜的話那是不是以後每年要一千億兩千億永遠都看不到盡頭"},{"start":6428.041,"end":6446.79,"text":"所以我想問一下在這個關稅的這個壁壘上面美國他提供的這個關稅的要求上包含我們已經跟阿拉斯加簽了相關的合約那簽了之後後續可能帶來的額外的成本我們要用什麼樣的方式讓他能夠賺錢讓他能夠損益平衡讓政府讓人民不需要用納稅錢來撲貼"},{"start":6454.537,"end":6470.548,"text":"報告委員這個有關於這個台電的撥補一千億的部分未獲大院通過行政院已經發布新聞稿表示非常的遺憾因為這個是我們過去在跟產業界做了二十幾場的座談會之下是反映"},{"start":6470.888,"end":6479.235,"text":"以前的台電是能夠賺錢的現在的台電是連年虧損的所以本來台電就應該要先去檢討要如何讓這個產業讓台電能夠停止虧損有相關的方案我們才有辦法拿納稅人的錢去撥補你不能說我們每次需要的時候撥補一千億、兩千億、三千億但仍然漲電價啊"},{"start":6495.089,"end":6497.49,"text":"這次經濟部它也講啦就是說呢如果撥補之後不能告訴大家說我保證不會漲電價這是民眾覺得非常不公的事情嘛所以我要講的是過去的台電它能夠賺錢現在的台電不斷虧損再加上您剛剛講的中油"},{"start":6513.84,"end":6538.63,"text":"那未來要去採購更加的昂貴相對於澳洲來講更貴的這個阿拉斯加的LNG我想問的是要如何改善這樣子的一個體質讓中油跟台電能夠不要有虧損的黑洞那此時當然就不再需要用人民的納稅錢來撥補這就是對台電對中油最好的方式請問我們目前有解決方案了嗎"},{"start":6539.415,"end":6559.095,"text":"報告委員,其實之所以會有虧損最主要的原因是因為從2022年開始,惡霧戰爭導致國際燃料的價格...你講得非常好,因為總統的說法是說是因為COVID-19,事實上就是因為惡霧戰爭,所以剛才你也講出了正確的答案,而賴清德總統講的是完全錯誤的。"},{"start":6561.397,"end":6576.866,"text":"那所以因為時間的關係所以我在這裡只是希望建議不管是在中油不管是在台電這一些漲幅非常劇烈的變化一定要先想出一個方案是讓中油的體質台電的體質能夠讓它轉虧為盈那這個時候我們才能討論說那要如何的去撥普然後如何的去協助否則永遠都在撥普這件事情我覺得國人是難以接受的"},{"start":6590.874,"end":6605.284,"text":"所以希望經濟部回去針對這個整個台電中油的體質要如何維持它的損益平衡甚至像以前一樣能夠賺錢再做出一些努力那未來我們可以聽到相關的專案報告以上 謝謝謝謝謝小琪的這個質詢接下來由馬文金委員上台質詢"},{"start":6621.371,"end":6630.415,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局 經濟部 農業部還有談判辦公室行政院 經貿談判辦公室 謝謝謝謝 局長回來了吧"},{"start":6643.309,"end":6650.867,"text":"市長已經回來了今天請假另外有一個重要公務所以今天請假跟趙薇來特別請假"},{"start":6652.507,"end":6668.499,"text":"基本上因為今天這個議題其實全國的民眾還有所有的企業廠商其實相關的大家都非常的關注照理說今天這麼大的一個題目我想其實國安局長而且他有親自參與照理說他應該要來參加我不曉得有什麼公務可以這麼重要不過"},{"start":6672.922,"end":6690.988,"text":"在這裡我們看到國安局的報告裡面我們看到這個內部我們對內容裡面對台灣整體的影響好像沒有任何的延期那其實政府在談判的過程當中他如果越不透明就會讓企業廠商還有民眾更加的無所適從那我們現在目前可以就一些相關的條件或者現在進度有什麼樣子的一個判斷嗎"},{"start":6702.82,"end":6716.518,"text":"陳如剛委員剛所提示的就是整體的一個延期部分因為目前還在談判中到底關稅比例是多少如果有確定以後才可以做後續的一個延期做一個報告"},{"start":6717.499,"end":6723.461,"text":"對 副局長我們知道他現在還在談判當中可是我們要的就是延期因為國安局他的很重要的一個他的職責就是讓大家可以知道我們政府的因應的措施嘛或者他應該要有什麼樣的態度比如說韓國日本韓國跟日本他都是25%的關稅那在這個部分其實他就很明確的表態"},{"start":6742.347,"end":6760.543,"text":"包括對農業的態度 韓國雖然他有一些可能在原則上面的這些條件他可能會有所調整 那會開放等等他有一些原則性的協議 可是像日本就不一樣日本的態度非常明確 而且他嚴據開放進口美國米"},{"start":6764.949,"end":6774.128,"text":"在這個部分他不會考慮任何犧牲農業部門的這些相關的做法其實這真的是一個國家應該有的一個態度"},{"start":6775.869,"end":6779.972,"text":"堅持保護國內農業利益的底線因為這個會涉及到我們國家糧食安全還有農民的生計就像院長其實到南部去看他也會提到糧倉的這個問題今天如果我們開放就像我們農業今天農業部也來當時我們有一些為什麼在每年有時候我們在農地上面會做一些休耕可是我們還是必須讓他做農業使用"},{"start":6806.31,"end":6826.308,"text":"在我們必要的時候它還是必須要做這樣的一個農業的生產所以像這個部分我們都看不到我們在所有各個部會所有今天的報告裡面完全看不到我們國家的態度所以在這裡我們看到像美國對全世界讓利的空間其實它也越來越縮小"},{"start":6827.009,"end":6830.311,"text":"那台灣其實已經過度讓步在我們全體國人其實很多的感受都是這樣連外美都認為台灣對美的關稅談判他重要的籌碼包括像台積電追加超過1000億美元的投資還有剛剛提到的購買天然氣而且我們還是更貴的價格去採買的還有國防支出可能會調高到GDP3%以上"},{"start":6850.64,"end":6851.901,"text":"還有擴大對美的軍購還有加大各項的採購包括我們的經濟部長之前都提到10年可能高達6兆6千億這樣的一個預算規模那這些我們談判的籌碼都已經把它用盡了"},{"start":6866.014,"end":6883.401,"text":"對於我們可能整體台灣的這些談判的趨勢是處於極度的弱勢也會讓美國或川普可能有機會予取予求這樣子的一個做法我們看不到我們的報告裡面有任何的這方面的一個說明跟言行副局長有沒有要說明的還是請我們談判辦公室就剛剛的這樣子的一個"},{"start":6894.584,"end":6897.146,"text":"現在這樣的一個狀況我們會面臨到什麼樣的犧牲或者我們會在什麼樣的一個狀況之下對我們有什麼衝擊其實我們都看不到"},{"start":6905.626,"end":6932.428,"text":"好謝謝委員的垂詢我想我們現在在做對等關稅談判我們的最終目的就是幫我們的出口產業爭取到最低的關稅那特別是我們希望我們跟我們的日韓競爭對手至少我們要取得不高於他們的關稅所以這就是我們這一次對等關稅的最重要的目標所以在這個所以所謂的give and take這個過程美國給我們的就是"},{"start":6933.289,"end":6938.272,"text":"如何給我們我們怎麼去徵底到最好的關稅剛剛提到一個重點就是我們不希望我們當然希望是比日韓甚至東南亞國家因為跟我們的同質性非常高那對我們的出口競爭是有很大影響的可是所謂的對等談判我們現在已經不對等了"},{"start":6950.959,"end":6953.901,"text":"那我們就剛剛我提到日韓其實他們都是有強勢表態的我們到現在我們付出的一些籌碼代價我們顯然已經非常多了那現在因為我們看到國安局局長他親自出席這樣子的一個談判這個在這個"},{"start":6969.309,"end":6974.452,"text":"一般的這種談判經貿的談判裡面好像很少見所以如果台灣將軍購民訪或者台海穩定的議題都跟關稅綁在一起它很有可能讓美國認為說我們是以安全為主要訴求然後這些狀況的背後可能也會產生我們可能在談判的過程當中也是站在不利的這樣子的一個角色跟地位"},{"start":7000.27,"end":7010.525,"text":"我想我們的對等關稅談判還是著重在美國他的目標是要降低貿易逆差增加他自己的產業的競爭力所以還是比較是所謂經貿有關的這個議題"},{"start":7012.335,"end":7032.149,"text":"美國會產生貿易利益差全世界各國像以台灣為例我們付出了非常多的代價我們的工時比他們高我們做出了很多環境的犧牲我們做了很多很多的努力所以我們今天可以把產品銷售出去美國造成的利差是它自己本身它必須要去檢討改進而不是從我們這邊去叫我們去配合它或犧牲我們的我們相關的這些利益跟關稅然後"},{"start":7040.254,"end":7047.236,"text":"去滿足他這是一個主要的原則所以剛剛我們提到說我們可能在已經在比較不對等的情況之下我們今天就一個一個例子來看好了川普在美東時間7月15號已經說跟印尼達成協議了那會再公佈相關的細節據路透社的報導印尼"},{"start":7063.28,"end":7072.863,"text":"經濟統合部的官員也告訴路透社他說我們正在準備一個跟美國的共同聲明這個聲明裡面會有給印尼的稅率也會有降關稅基本上他們應該是降的處理非關稅障礙還有其他的商業安排我們很快會公佈我想請教外交部還有經貿辦公室我們台灣也會跟美國先簽一個共同聲明嗎在我們談判過程當中"},{"start":7091.564,"end":7116.373,"text":"我想那個我們希望就是在8月1號以前可以跟美國完成協議那所以它的文件性質我想這個是聲明或者是協議大概都不是最重要的就是我們基本上希望可以達成共識可是這個共識它為什麼重要是因為如果我們要簽不管是聲明或協議尤其是協議我們到底要不要依照條約締解法跟國會說明"},{"start":7120.984,"end":7135.415,"text":"好那我想我們會看最後我們的協議的性質有沒有涉及到法律案的修正不過條約締結法的主政機關是外交部所以是會請外交部我想就剛剛那個不是法律的修正因為條約締結法他的"},{"start":7137.617,"end":7144.983,"text":"整體的概念就是在我們可能涉及到人民權利義務或者涉及國防外交財政經濟利益或者跟國內法律內容比較不一致涉及國內法律的變更這個才有法律變更的問題可是就上面的幾項其實已經都在這個關稅裡面還包括我們的相關的安全因為國防"},{"start":7160.037,"end":7168.722,"text":"國安局長其實他也親自出席了嘛可見在這個部分其實已經有這些項目那就這個部分我們會不會依照條約締結法先跟國會說明"},{"start":7172.391,"end":7187.384,"text":"目前台美的關稅談判還在進行之中如果雙方達成這個協定如果符合了條約締結法第三條跟第八條的規定的話我們會由這個主辦的機關報請行政院合轉立法院來做相關的必要動作"},{"start":7194.022,"end":7195.503,"text":"必須要跟國會說明嘛對不對那像川普總統其實他在發文的時候也提到他跟印尼總統達成了重要的協議相關的這個內容裡面大概有超過2.8億人口市場的開放還有承諾採購150億美元的能源45億農產品還有50架波音飛機等等"},{"start":7219.714,"end":7236.664,"text":"最重要的是印尼將向美國支出19%的關稅這個對於美國對印尼的出口是免關稅跟無關稅壁壘其實他們所有的條件大概都在這裡面了那我想請教一下因為過去7月7號就"},{"start":7239.386,"end":7244.948,"text":"美國給印尼的這個通知函他的稅率是32他現在下降成19%我們剛剛看到印尼的這些相關的這些條件我們看一下我們可能因為就印尼的內容裡面我們來推測台美可能也會有這些六大重點"},{"start":7259.494,"end":7271.099,"text":"第一個就是關稅跟配額非關稅貿易障礙還有原產地規則保障採購跟保障投資這個還有勞工跟環境保護等等那另外一個"},{"start":7272.202,"end":7279.566,"text":"就是保證國防預算這個在印尼上面是沒有的可是就我們的內容裡面其實我們GDP的提高到3%以上或者像增加我們的軍事採購其實都跟國防預算已經都含在裡面了那像我們還有剛剛提到的包括台積電的投資或者各方面我們付出這麼多的代價然後還有資源還有未來的採購的金額"},{"start":7300.137,"end":7326.234,"text":"我們是不是應該稅率會比印尼還低我們不對最終的稅率做任何的猜測但是我相信我們的行政院經貿團隊會盡最大的努力能夠基於互惠互利的一個原則盡力的說服美方其實這是一個我們產業互補這個是雙方都有共同的利益"},{"start":7327.435,"end":7348.151,"text":"這個不是雙方的利益 我們看不到美國有犧牲什麼利益我們剛剛念了一大堆全部都是我們犧牲我們自己本身的利益那就這個部分我們在這裡期許因為印尼它支出的 付出的比我們還少包括它的採購金額 它算起來像這些金額大概是6000億台幣左右"},{"start":7350.432,"end":7366.383,"text":"還有55架的波音飛機就是這樣可是我們的顯然高出許多而且我們付出的代價更高那我們希望我們的稅率可以低於印尼因為我們付出的比他們還多這是我們期許的好不好我們大家共同的期待好 謝謝 謝謝大家謝謝馬文卿的質詢接下來由黃國昌委員上台質詢"},{"start":7379.432,"end":7383.119,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請外交部政次、經濟部次長"},{"start":7393.499,"end":7420.207,"text":"委員長兩位早時間的關係不一一問候我們目前為止在對美的談判上基本的立場全民都願意做政府的後盾爭取談判到最好的條件這毋庸置疑這個是我們討論問題最基本的基礎在這個基礎上面我前一段時間跟我在法學界過去"},{"start":7423.652,"end":7437.019,"text":"一起合作過的朋友我問了他們說目前台妹在這麼重要的經貿談判的過程當中應該要進行什麼法律程序為什麼我會說很重要"},{"start":7438.807,"end":7456.225,"text":"從國防、從外交、從經濟、從農業各方面大概有史以來台灣不會有這麼大衝擊的一個協議但目前為止我們都是非常片面的從媒體上面得到有說本與沒有說的訊息"},{"start":7459.108,"end":7483.853,"text":"在整個對外談判的過程當中我相信台灣是一個民主國家一個民主國家應該要踐行的程序還是要踐行因為它會牽涉到了非常多人民他們的生計以及我們到底要付出什麼樣子的代價具體的請教在目前我們對外談判對美談判上面"},{"start":7485.413,"end":7491.468,"text":"我們是在走協議的程序走條約的程序還是走協定的程序"},{"start":7493.241,"end":7517.435,"text":"對於這個問題還是要雙方的達成協定那我先評一下,來,條約締結法第三條跟第八條是,條約締結法第三條就有關於涉及到國防外交財政經濟上面的利益這個沒有問題,這是國家重要的事項,不會有人否認這件事所以是不是應該要走條約的程序這我們請我們的條法師來回答"},{"start":7519.156,"end":7541.069,"text":"報告委員,這個根據條例第3條跟第8條的相關規定喔這主要是由主辦機關來認定說誰是主辦機關?就看這個案子本身的主辦機關對啊,現在這個案子的主辦機關是誰?這個我並不變,不變也有這個條法是來回答你不變回答,來請外交部長,現在這個案子的主辦機關是誰?報告委員,外交部長不在,我是次長"},{"start":7542.584,"end":7571.056,"text":"所以今天次長沒有辦法回答外交部權責應該要回答的問題是不是沒有我們這個還是我們這個談判團隊現在的談判團隊沒有啦你現在剛剛你前一個人跟我說這要看主辦機關嗎那我現在非常具體的問主辦機關是誰你說是外交部嗎如果是外交部主辦的話這到底是你們現在這個應該是符合條約的要件嗎這個沒有問題吧還是你們連這個現在都沒有辦法承認"},{"start":7572.379,"end":7591.246,"text":"我們現在還沒有辦法,但是如果說到時候我再唸一次,到現在還沒有辦法,我再唸一次條約第九法第三條的規定涉及到國防外交財政經濟上利益等國家重要事項目前台美之間這麼重要的協議不符合這個要件嗎"},{"start":7594.319,"end":7620.167,"text":"這個有這麼複雜嗎這還在談判的過程之中很多的這個過程所以你認為說這不涉及到我們財政經濟上面重要的利益這大概涉及到相關的最大的利益有涉及還是沒涉及有涉及那有涉及不就是條約嗎但是他用的具體的名稱是用條約還是協定我想這還是要請你看一下條約締結法第三條好不好符合下面要件之一就是條約了"},{"start":7621.926,"end":7647.785,"text":"阿你還在這邊打迷糊仗符不符合條約締結法第三條所定義應該要遵循條約的程序我們由這個調法師來做阿剛剛他就不敢講話啦報告委員最主要是因為現在還在談判的過程中所以呢不知道會不會涉及財政經濟上面的國家重要事項蛤 到現在還不知道"},{"start":7650.219,"end":7674.545,"text":"到現在還不知道如果不知道的話會引發國內這麼高的關注鄭麗君副院長有必要帶團去美國台灣是一個民主法治的國家我再提醒一次如果連今天這個基本的問題都沒有辦法回答的話下面的就更困難什麼叫下面的更困難來看一下當初蔡英文前總統她是怎麼說的"},{"start":7680.027,"end":7689.276,"text":"國家對岸貿易談判上從開啟談判 談判過程與談判結果的協議的審議都應該有國會的參與同不同意同意不同意當然同意嘛現在有嗎現在我們就是像我們今天來這個大院備詢其實就是一個全部來打空話就是當初蔡英文所講的開啟談判 談判過程都有國會的參與"},{"start":7707.048,"end":7732.407,"text":"是喔 當初蔡英文是這個意思喔真的是這樣嗎來 再往下看賴清德說一個對台灣政治經濟層面影響深遠的協議是以黑箱的方式沒有審慎評估各行各業所受的衝擊就送到國會這個就是指的是什麼 台灣才要送到國會啦這個是獨裁的心態賴清德講的讚不讚成"},{"start":7734.008,"end":7747.8,"text":"我們絕對尊重這個國會審議尊重國會審議嘛對啊 但今天國會問你到底是不是用條約的方式去進行審議連程序的問題都不敢回答再往下看這是鄭麗君當年講的"},{"start":7749.912,"end":7777.404,"text":"不是只有簽署之後的監督啊簽署之前的談判過程就要讓社會參與社會協商利害關係人必須被充分告知資訊政府必須要有衝擊影響評估報告國會必須要了解跟參與啊這樣不贊成贊成贊成有做到嗎有現在都有做到是哇你們還真敢講欸我們經濟部也有你們還真的真敢講欸對現在問所有的事情全部"},{"start":7778.328,"end":7806.198,"text":"我們都還是在協商當中要爭取國家最高的利益我剛一開始就開中民議講了全國人民當政府的後盾爭取國家最高的利益當然嘛當然那講了這兩句話了以後就是鄭麗君剛剛當初所講的喔談判之前談判中應該要有個參與喔來再帶你複習一下當初林佳龍啊是怎麼講的在談判的時候為什麼要有民間為什麼要有國會的參與"},{"start":7809.69,"end":7834.733,"text":"這個對於台灣民主制度的尊重非常非常的重要我不希望到最後到最後被宣布的時候宣布的具體內容事前事終沒有國會跟公民社會的參與今天川普總統其實應該算去天應該算昨天"},{"start":7836.158,"end":7863.832,"text":"在他的社交平台宣布了跟印尼達成的協議給他19%沒有錯看起來好像很好但是付出的代價是什麼付出的代價是150億美元能源的採購45億農產品的採購50價坡因而且要對美產品全面開放零關稅這個代價你覺得高不高很高很高台灣的代價會這麼高嗎不知道"},{"start":7864.639,"end":7885.451,"text":"我們希望這是一個我們整個總體經濟轉型的一部分我們之前也說到的是說我們希望這是一個優化我國的經貿體制的一個經濟所以你的評論只有這樣?是我剛剛你說印尼付的代價很高我現在具體的問題台灣會不會付這麼高的代價?"},{"start":7887.899,"end":7913.755,"text":"這個在談判的過程之中說個實在的委員也知道這裡面還有很多的不確定性那最後齁談判條件的底線由誰決定賴清德總統自己拍板嗎這個由這個經貿談判小組經貿談判小組有這麼高的權限嗎沒有總統的授權可以簽下去可以答應嗎當然需要總統的授權對不對最後需要總統的授權嘛最後一個問題啦"},{"start":7916.418,"end":7943.129,"text":"鄭麗君回來的時候在公開資訊上因為我也沒什麼其他特殊的管道了她說雙方仍在洽談下一次實體談判的時間下一次實體談判的時間現在訂了沒有這我沒有相關的資訊經濟部有沒有相關的資訊8月1號之前經濟部有沒有相關的資訊下一次實體談判的時間雙方還在磋商目前還在磋商嗎還在磋商好加油啦謝謝"},{"start":7945.712,"end":7968.801,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員質詢接下來有王定宜委員上台質詢好謝謝主席麻煩我們談判的副總代表"},{"start":7976.667,"end":7988.333,"text":"委員好早喔談判的內容因為現在正在進行當中我覺得基於國家的利益沒有一個國家的談判會提前把自己的底牌陣容先排的就算是在國會"},{"start":7989.71,"end":8010.9,"text":"我看到全世界國會沒有一個國會會提早把自己的國家底牌先排的談判結果是好是壞大家都希望好但這不是單方面在跳Tango這要兩方面來進行所以我最近看到一些比較荒謬的情形我要請教你什麼時候可以宣布或者什麼時候會有談判結果是台灣單方面可以決定的嗎"},{"start":8012.501,"end":8024.262,"text":"我想所有的談判國際慣例都是必須要雙方已經對明確的事情有共識那甚至是需要在這個協議有草簽之後那雙方都同意了我們才能對外公開"},{"start":8025.582,"end":8044.23,"text":"我很抱歉我問了一個這麼low這麼沒有基本常識的問題因為我竟然聽到我們國會裡面有人說我們台灣政府為了什麼大罷免刻意把川普宣布台灣關稅的時間往後延天啊台灣如果可以指揮川普什麼時候宣布我還想指揮他做別的事情"},{"start":8046.397,"end":8071.108,"text":"這是常識題國際談判的進程美國一定考慮美國的國家利益嘛台灣一定考慮台灣的國家利益嘛然後雙方give and take達成協議根據國際慣例怎麼宣布都會寫在裡面什麼方式來通過至於是採取條約協定協議也要看雙方協議最後的定案所以過早去把它"},{"start":8072.188,"end":8094.24,"text":"先排其實我們要想的是台灣廣大的中小企業超過一千萬的勞工其實跟這個都有關係所以時間的進程並不是台灣單一方面可以決定的事實上也不是美國單一方面可以決定的這是一個雙方要談判的事情然後再來有人說談判內容沒有公開就是黑箱你贊成這個說法嗎"},{"start":8096.404,"end":8115.123,"text":"我當然不贊成這個說法因為我們談判團隊我相信包括了我們的行政院以及各部會我們都有持續的除了我們在這個我想會講這種話講黑箱的人指的是對國會透明那我要詢問你你參與這國際談判應該相當有經驗做到副總代表了嘛"},{"start":8116.064,"end":8132.966,"text":"我們過去不管在扁政府馬政府蔡英文政府歷任的政府那李登輝的時候你大概還沒當公務員那太久了就是說在這麼長時間跟國際的談判重大的經貿談判在談判當中有立法院參與過的記錄嗎"},{"start":8135.775,"end":8146.786,"text":"跟委員報告我是去年520才加入這個政府的不過我的理解就是我們當然會希望說國會跟社會都有參與但是這一次的談判實際上不是傳統的經貿談判但是我們盡可能維持透明度"},{"start":8151.69,"end":8180.928,"text":"所以我們這個談判過程我們的各部會有以專題報告的方式委員會報告的方式以及各位委員也都有私底下請我們去做一些個別的一個討論我想這就是我們在這個非常壓縮的談判期間盡可能維持透明度的方式之所以會壓縮因為川普掀起的是一個非典型的關稅談判以前關稅談十年我印象韓國跟美國談FTA十年都沒有結果最後有結果的時候在首爾街頭砸車子嘛"},{"start":8182.011,"end":8200.378,"text":"所以這一次是川普掀起了一個真的是非傳統非典型的關稅談判而且關稅談判涉及的層面很廣然後訊息又常常變化突然間這個豁免然後汽車業什麼豁免後來明天又不豁免這個談判過程當中不是台灣當方面決定的所以國會的參與"},{"start":8201.318,"end":8222.874,"text":"透過一些專報在經濟委員會在各個委員會所有像我們今天委員會能釋放出來的訊息會盡量釋放那未來簽出來的不管是條約協議或協定定案之後我們就照立法院的相關的程序來進行這個才是現在因應談判最沉穩的做法啦好我最後請教你就是就你了解"},{"start":8224.615,"end":8243.172,"text":"因為川普曾經說過最後我都沒有講完的通通就是15% 20%他曾經講過但他講過很多事情他還講過要炸北京嘛我還沒看到現在就是說就你了解台灣的談判結果就你們目前看到的方向他"},{"start":8244.525,"end":8259.01,"text":"最後談到的結果我們大概會在什麼時候會有因為他這個90 days post已經到了已經要到了已經過了那接下來後續我們大概什麼時候可以預計有個大概結果是8月底以前什麼樣"},{"start":8260.157,"end":8287.786,"text":"跟委員報告我想川普總統就是在原本的7月9號的Date Line以前他去宣布說我們會延長到8月1號是Date Line所以我們現在不論我們拿到的稅率我們現在當然沒有收到關稅信函但是不論有沒有收到我覺得我們到8月1號以前努力談判就是我們的重點所以8月1號的Date Line到以前我們希望能夠達到一個結果那Date Line到還沒有宣布的會照川普講的都剩你15%"},{"start":8289.468,"end":8318.176,"text":"他有點把這個當作頓售 你知道嗎Hot Sale 一次來弄就是8月1號以後沒有談成的他是會再延長因為他常常延長或者是後續接下來目前看來美方的資訊會全部採取15%左右那15%其實是不錯因為目前我看最低的是英國10%嘛所以英國女王見他第二次了這個是很難得的事情英國國王 現在不是女王所以就你了解如果8月1號到期會發生什麼樣的情形"},{"start":8319.475,"end":8338.946,"text":"我想川普總統所謂的10到15 20%是針對現在原本4月2號公布的對等關稅拿到10%的這些國家他要一併的提高到15到20%那但是台灣是屬於原本有個別對等關稅的國家也就是我們是貿易逆差存在的所以我們可能還是會透過我們在8月1號以前努力談的這個關稅的稅率來作為我們最終的目標"},{"start":8348.522,"end":8366.65,"text":"最後有結果出來我覺得按照程序其實不管是外交國防委員會或者是我們經濟委員會我想國會都會排你們回來做報告這免不了的所以我是比較遺憾的面對這麼大的國際變革各國都在因應的時候政治紅利不應該從這邊來賺取我先請外交部次長"},{"start":8373.704,"end":8394.934,"text":"市長你邊走邊聽我問巴拉圭總統貝尼亞他曾經留學台灣跟我們相當友好他這兩天講的是堅定跟台灣站在一起而且他講一個重要的重點說台灣對巴拉圭的投資其實他覺得是相當不錯的那這個是對照中國用大撒幣挖走的像洪都拉斯沙瓦多都跳票"},{"start":8395.754,"end":8419.956,"text":"宏東大社瞎農現在真的是瞎瞎瞎黑黑黑那現在就是說這個對照就是跟台灣理念相近然後平等互惠的外交方式然後我們現在跟巴拉圭跟美國希望建立一個三角形的一個經貿的關係林佳龍部長率團在巴拉圭訪問所以貝尼亞講的正面的意義是台巴的邦誼是相當穩固雖然中國還是拼命在滲透他們的在野黨那"},{"start":8421.778,"end":8440.532,"text":"另外他提到的是我們賴先生總統八月份要訪問巴拉圭啦那他先講出來了那我們台灣你很難去說有或沒有我現在只問一個問題就是如果按照往例我國元首訪問巴拉圭是不是一定會過境美國本土"},{"start":8441.616,"end":8459.083,"text":"按照往例的時候,我們當然會選擇讓總統的出訪能夠最便利。那個三原則我會背啦,那個是美國三原則啦,安全便利啦,還有舒適嘛。那我們到巴拉圭有沒有不過境美國本土以外的選擇路線?"},{"start":8461.357,"end":8488.045,"text":"說一個實在的,我們這次部長去就沒有途經美國當然我說,剛才委員說的三原則,現在又要講第四個就是尊嚴尊嚴,對那目前還好啦,我現在沒有看到過境美國會有一些尊嚴的問題像我的意思是說,八月份去巴拉圭訪問,這是邦交國的訪問,沒有問題那總統專機飛出去,他如果不過境美國的話,難道你要過境歐洲?"},{"start":8489.945,"end":8514.138,"text":"還有一種情形就是在所謂的境外美國領土夏威夷或者阿拉斯加就有其他的安排那會被人家做外交上比較我坦白講比較往負向指標的詮釋就你們外交部目前可以透露給國人的我們規劃賴總統出訪我們邦交國的話過境美國現在目前有沒有這樣安排"},{"start":8515.519,"end":8539.862,"text":"報告委員,第一個是說相關的安排,如果已經有具體的安排的時候,我們統一由總統府來發布。第二個是說,在總統府總體的考量之下,外交部會全力的配合,全力讓總統的出訪能夠非常的便利。飛機是你們的責任嘛?是。要去訂了沒?"},{"start":8542.053,"end":8570.171,"text":"訂飛機是吧 訂專機嘛當然是說我們隨時都會不可能隨時準備一架飛機在那邊我們隨時準備要承受各種的工作你這樣回答我很難答你但是這是標準答案所以我還是希望我們賴總統第一次如果能夠過境美國本土的話呈現出來的互動 層級 議題各界都會做文章 你知道"},{"start":8571.645,"end":8597.587,"text":"賴清德總統過境美國到巴拉圭這個事情我們還沒有確認美國也還沒有確認先跳腳的是誰中共透過南華早報今天就先跳了這個不重要比較重要的是川習會顯現這個過境很重要光從他透過南華早報的反應就知道這個過境其實對區域的地緣政治啦對於台美關係其實很重要請你們慎慎去注意過境美國的層級"},{"start":8599.709,"end":8615.59,"text":"議題跟過境的甚至於天數都會有影響請你們做妥善的規劃那件事情我最後只問一件事情我們跟立陶宛的半陶體合作是否面臨"},{"start":8616.84,"end":8637.03,"text":"全面終止沒有沒有沒有沒有這樣的一個狀況還在討論這個雙方這個都可以實現的一些立陶宛坦白講真的是一個蠻好的朋友他們在民主的價值上那黃司長過去就是駐立陶宛第一任的我們的代表"},{"start":8638.231,"end":8650.557,"text":"那跟他們的半導體合作四個協議有三個問題不大有一個有一個雙方的期望值不一樣那如果因為那個期望值不同全面終止那被"},{"start":8651.974,"end":8668.111,"text":"負面解讀的機會就會相當大所以我再問一下清楚問完我就結束今天的質詢我們跟立陶宛的半導體合作有沒有全面終止或者中斷的危機我們請我們的立陶宛參加歐洲市市長"},{"start":8670.001,"end":8687.488,"text":"包委員我們跟他們正在進行各種可能的討論那我們也希望未來能夠持續延續在半導體上的合作動能這個討論你我都有參與過我聽到最後有點發現是歪斜線就是期望值的落差那"},{"start":8688.854,"end":8715.159,"text":"透過立方一些友好的朋友如果能夠理解那個落差其實不是來自於不是來自於台灣的問題而是一個這個產業的一個相關的條件的話實驗室的條件相關條件的話我覺得這個要做充分溝通因為那一個部分如果終止我們很怕有骨牌效應我相信黃市長了解我所提的內容那這個部分我私下會再請教你那我們各自看看我們對立方"},{"start":8715.959,"end":8739.395,"text":"大家都有的好朋友在那邊能夠來協助解決這個問題好朋友難免會有意見不同就算親人都會有意見不同的時候那好朋友意見不同妥善解決而不是如果說把它停下來的話我個人會覺得有點可惜啦好不好 外交部加油那個委員的期待是我們的執命好 謝謝我們王定義委員質詢接下來待會我們陳俊偉委員"},{"start":8744.738,"end":8759.288,"text":"執行完畢之後我們休息五分鐘我們請林柱英委員上台質詢林柱英委員上台質詢林柱英委員上台質詢林柱英不在那我們請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":8770.367,"end":8775.093,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們先請外交部我們陳次長好 次長午安"},{"start":8782.962,"end":8797.439,"text":"針對今天熱門的這個議題就是川普政府宣布的對等關稅的這個相關的問題那已經超過三個月了從川普在7月8號所簽署的這個行政命令將對這個"},{"start":8800.983,"end":8816.971,"text":"對等關稅的這個生效日期和談判截止日期從7月9號延長到8月1號那在這段時間當中我們看到各國政府包括台灣的我們談判代表都積極的和美方在進行這個磋商但是近期有幾個國家的這個關稅談判結果陸續都已經揭開謎底了已經開講了"},{"start":8822.353,"end":8851.562,"text":"那稅率有增有減大家都非常關心台灣談判的結果會是怎樣但在各界的這個預測當中仍然還是眾說紛紜那基於台美談判的這個互信我們就剛剛一開始會議的時候所約定的如果談判的這個議題沒有辦法直接在這邊揭露的話我請那個外交部這邊就您的立場或是原則性的答覆就可以了那首先我想請教次長就是"},{"start":8853.536,"end":8872.675,"text":"從這幾天所公布的這個結果還有這個四月份所公布的這個稅率對比綜合目前已知道的這個資訊來看您對於這個川普他的對等關稅他的稅率增減的邏輯和他是如何判斷你的看法是什麼"},{"start":8873.215,"end":8889.853,"text":"我想是現在目前為止的話它的上限是這個目前啦不一定會不會有突破我們知道上限是這個巴西的50%嘛然後底線是這個英國的10%那我們看到很多的這個我們鄰近相近的國家落在25%到30%不等"},{"start":8891.775,"end":8912.43,"text":"那麼今天剛剛宣布的印尼拿到19%相對來說是一個比較好的一個結果那麼就我們這些綜合的判斷的時候其實考量應該是蠻多點的包括這個美國的對美國的貿易逆差包括這個經濟安全包括兩國的關係包括地緣政治的考量我想都在美國所以說"},{"start":8914.672,"end":8936.602,"text":"這個變數變得比較多,所以很難去預測那我就是請委員也相信我們這個行政院的經貿談判團隊最大的努力然後遵循著這一群的,我們要維護國家的利益,維護產業利益保障國人健康,以及保障這個糧食安全這四個基本的原則,盡力跟美方溝通與談判"},{"start":8937.742,"end":8959.022,"text":"同時我們要讓這個美方了解到是說其實台美的一個結構是台美的這個貿易的這個結果是一個雙方產業互補的一個結果那我們現在這些東西上面我想都有一些美方也對於我們的立場相當的一個了解那還有很多的這個細節不太方便就是這個時候就攤開來說那再說明一次"},{"start":8961.53,"end":8988.641,"text":"一個過去可能是要花幾年的時間現在壓縮到僅僅只有幾個月的時間喔這個裡面本來就談判非常的這個不容易啦那也有很多的這一個兩邊的這個來來往往的一個確認我想這些東西所以在8月1號這個之前我們都很難說最終的稅率會是什麼那那個次長您能預測大概會比較趨近於10%或是50%嗎"},{"start":8991.063,"end":9017,"text":"這個我不好做任何的一個預測現在也沒有透露訊息但是外交部會循著所有的管道那麼能夠讓我們拿到這個最低的這個關稅但是Given Tax的過程我們也會希望我們可以這個得到更多能夠這個給出但是台美還是一個互利互惠的一個關係這個大概基本的一個原則那如果公布之後的"},{"start":9018.501,"end":9042.197,"text":"這個稅率不如我們的預期那我們在短期間之內我們是不是有相關的因應措施並且在關稅正式上路之後那能夠持續與美方再進行談判有沒有可能我們當然一定全力的爭取如果這是很大的一個如果說這個關稅不如預期我們當然期望它是能夠有好的一個結果當然"},{"start":9043.078,"end":9061.514,"text":"但是在我們說到就是說其實在裡面包含了很多美方的一個考量的這幾個點上面的確有它的不確定性那麼當然這個在談判之後那麼達到的一個效果第一個我們會按照這個法律的原則那麼跟這個立法院能夠完成相關的一個程序"},{"start":9062.014,"end":9077.55,"text":"也會跟這個公民社會跟我們的這個產業做充分的溝通那應該有的啟動的這個協助這個產業轉型協助產業繼續提升他們的這個產業升級我想我們這個工作都不會停止那外交部"},{"start":9078.15,"end":9101.131,"text":"也不會停止我們收報所有的這個情資我們收報透過所有的管道希望能夠持續能夠確保我們的整個台美的這個經貿的這個互動是良性的是健康的好那在談判的過程裡面我們外交部是扮演一個非常重要的一個關鍵角色那我想請教就是說"},{"start":9101.952,"end":9123.727,"text":"我們有沒有透過美國的參眾兩院、友台的議員來幫忙聯繫,或是接觸到相關的內閣官員,甚至透過在地的企業界,進而爭取到美方政商界對於我們台灣經貿談判上的一個有力的支持,有沒有?"},{"start":9124.207,"end":9148.523,"text":"是那個委員的這個觀念跟提醒非常的好這是一個全方位的立體的一個談判不是只有這個行政單位對行政單位外交部正在我們這個相關的立場上面我們當然會跟所有的這個跟我理念相近的這些美國的國會議員參眾兩院的議員能夠做充分的溝通同時我們也尋管到"},{"start":9149.063,"end":9168.373,"text":"那麼跟這個在對川普政府這相關的官員有比較具有影響力的這個企業透過那邊第一個我們要得到更多的這個訊息第二個傳遞清楚傳遞我方的立場爭取我們的這個最大的意義都有在做這個是一個很好的一個立體的這個這個策略"},{"start":9169.394,"end":9183.655,"text":"那也要請外交部去整合這個美國在地的一些台商或是工業農業團體的相關意見能夠進一步來協助我們在這個談判上作為我們比較有力的一個支持的力道"},{"start":9185.417,"end":9210.631,"text":"報告委員,最近陸陸續續有一些台商團體來我們本部我們也透過跟他們的互動,也請他們能夠隨時關切這個議題也用他們在地的影響力,就讓委員建議這樣能夠讓這個談判對我們來說是一個正面積極的另外在中長期的貿易佈局上,我想再請教次長"},{"start":9212.873,"end":9227.349,"text":"這個有關CPTPP的這個部分在上個月6月19號中國的商務部宣稱中國為了加入CPTPP已經做好充分的準備那中方也將主動對接CPTPP等國際高標準的這個經貿規則"},{"start":9231.253,"end":9252.226,"text":"穩步的來擴大制度型的開放並且與各成員來進行深入的溝通交流積極推動加入進程等等而台灣我們近年來也都對於爭取積極加入CPTPP有相當大的一個積極的力道我想再請教次長"},{"start":9253.627,"end":9275.785,"text":"中國在這個時間點是不是刻意要轉移這個關稅談判的一個議題來重提CPTPP對於台灣要申請入會是不是會造成某種程度的一個影響那我想當然是說中國有他的一個策略像剛才委員說的很好就是說其實他又同時在說CPTPP的這個議題"},{"start":9277.006,"end":9296.822,"text":"那麼事實上我們都知道中國是一個最嚴重的補貼出口的一個國家這個對於加入CPTPP他們認為他們合乎它的高規格的標準我想是一種諷刺啦相對來說我國根據奧克蘭三原則我們有高標準的做法"},{"start":9297.342,"end":9310.045,"text":"那麼第二個是說我們這一個有很好的歷史的紀錄但是現在最重要的外交部的努力是在於說爭取各國的共識所以說我們在這段時間之內我們會陸續的拜訪遊說對於我國親善的國家希望他們在我們加入CPTPP上面能夠盡更多的力氣來推動台灣陸會這麼樣的一個"},{"start":9322.187,"end":9348.736,"text":"經貿上面的這個優等生能夠加入CPTPP我們常常說是說這是對於我們世界貿易體系的一個正面的貢獻那現在我們也看到是說其實有一些比較正面可以期待CPTPP也是一樣對於我們現在跟台美經貿談判裡面CPTPP也扮演一個關鍵的角色意思就是說它可以成為我們這個多元化我們出口的這個方向的一個正面的一個力量跟選項"},{"start":9349.696,"end":9369.959,"text":"好那針對這個部分我們有沒有去遊說一些比較友好的這些理念相近的國家齁能夠為我們來發聲那為台灣爭取入會審查來加入一些正面的能量有沒有報告委員齁有齁那我們各個具體的國家不方便透露齁像我自己個人就"},{"start":9370.739,"end":9386.37,"text":"有去拜訪過幾個友好的國家那希望也能夠把我們的這個case讓他們能夠完全的了解那麼我們也得到相對的蠻正面的令人鼓舞的一些訊息好 謝謝次長那我再借兩分鐘請教一下我們農業部我們杜次長"},{"start":9397.861,"end":9410.108,"text":"市長我想請教一下在這次談判的過程裡面農業也是一個非常重大的議題我們農產品的第一大的海外市場對美國來講"},{"start":9413.47,"end":9425.255,"text":"美國的順差是每年大概是28億美元也是美國第八大的一個海外的市場我想請教針對在農業的相關談判的過程裡面我們對於是否納入放寬農產品的議題來跟美方對談"},{"start":9435.267,"end":9455.481,"text":"好 先謝謝委員支持台灣的農業我想台灣跟美國的農產品其實就是一個互補型的貿易比方說美國對台灣雖然有順差但他到台灣來的是黃小玉跟牛肉那這些是為了我們國內需要那台灣去的也是我們的強項比方說是花卉 比方說是水產所以雙方的貿易其實是有這個互補性這是第一點"},{"start":9456.101,"end":9474.88,"text":"那第二點就這次的談判我想農業部的立場非常清楚就是爭取我們農業的最大的競爭力維持我們的永續還有農業民的利益絕對是要最優先好那有沒有針對什麼項目我們會比較關切比如說像美豬美牛或是稻米比較敏感的這些項目有沒有可能"},{"start":9475.775,"end":9485.344,"text":"應該這樣說美方當然對於他可以對台灣市場可以進行有利的條件他一定會提出來那農業部立場還是一樣一定維持台灣農業台灣農民最優先來做相關的說明跟協調"},{"start":9490.568,"end":9505.825,"text":"針對我們台灣出口的這個品項我們目前好像在蘇美的品項好像只有五項的這些應該不只 但主要就是花卉還有水產水果的部分是不是有五項水產品 水果的部分有一些 比方說番石榴啦這些也都有在去"},{"start":9507.166,"end":9529.051,"text":"我的建議是說是不是可以在這個談判過程裡面我們來增加品項因為我們台灣的農特產品是品項是非常的多那可能是輸美的部分他在於我們談判的過程裡面如果沒有去爭取的話可能美方也不會積極的要求我們說可以讓我們的這些品項可以輸美那是不是這部分我們可以加入"},{"start":9530.024,"end":9547.734,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想就整體談判我們一定會以台灣農業站在保護農民維持我們競爭力為最優先原則來對談好那最後一個問題就是我想請教這個可能也跟外交部有點關係就是我們在九月份我們預計會有一個農訪團到美國那這個農訪團到美國的整個訪問的過程我們的這一次的規模是不是會擴大"},{"start":9557.099,"end":9562.282,"text":"或是已經有相關的規劃,是不是會有部長級的部長來領團,有可能嗎?"},{"start":9568.908,"end":9590,"text":"我們所有的可能性都不排除我們也希望這一次農訪團能夠達到很好的一個效果所以是說當然我們在組我們包括在SelectUSA上面其實組團都是前所未有的那也象徵的說台美之間它的貿易結構是一個互利互惠的一個狀況在農訪團上面"},{"start":9591.701,"end":9607.053,"text":"那我們全力的跟這個農業部這邊一起合作能夠把這個相關的這個傳遞我們的清楚的訊息那麼也能夠透過農訪團能夠促進台美雙方的農業貿易好那我們這一次的農訪團有沒有這個設定"},{"start":9609.154,"end":9636.777,"text":"要達成到什麼樣的任務的一個規模那相關的這個規劃會不會受到關稅談判的結果最後的影響這兩邊還是一個獨立的規劃就是說我們農訪團是一個行之幾年的已經有行之有年的一個台美之間的一個相關農業合作上面的一個規劃那我們按照原定的時程按照原定的一個計畫"},{"start":9638.078,"end":9655.558,"text":"在規模上面我們希望規模能夠適當的繼續擴大我還是提醒不管是外交部或農業部我們對於跟美方談判相關農業的議題的時候一定要確保我們本國的農業的一個保障我們農民是看天吃飯"},{"start":9659.161,"end":9685.331,"text":"這個不能被我們在談判的過程裡面當作籌碼來犧牲掉那我也希望說我們這個對於農民的這些補助轉型或外銷相關的這些配套都要有一個完善的規劃可以讓我們所有未來有可能會跟美方的相關這個貿易過程裡面會衝擊的問題能夠降低到最低讓我們農民在生產的過程有一個"},{"start":9685.891,"end":9694.633,"text":"最大的一個保障好 謝謝委員支持台灣農業好 以上謝謝謝謝陳俊宇委員質詢以下我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":10065.802,"end":10070.606,"text":"下一期開會接下來我們請林益金委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請經貿辦副總談判代表還有農業部次長委員好"},{"start":10097.97,"end":10112.242,"text":"你們好副總談判代表還有次長你們大家都為了這次美國關稅的事情焦頭爛額大家也都辛苦了但是我還是要特別的強調就是台美是民主的夥伴共享民主的價值"},{"start":10113.143,"end":10118.647,"text":"但是為了落實台美民主同盟的價值對於雙方談判的資訊應該是更公開透明讓全國人民參與才是因為這次領軍的赴美談判的鄭麗君副院長過去是擔任立委的期間在學運的反腐貓黑箱的時候他都有強力的主張我國所有對外的經貿的談判"},{"start":10136.061,"end":10156.258,"text":"公民的社會都應該是有事前事終參與還有監督還有事後又要更應該公開的堅持但是我看我們現在政府到現在目前為止所有台美關稅的談判都是大海箱到現在國內完全都沒有非常明確的資訊尤其是對於受影響最嚴重的中小企業還有全國的勞工然後賴總統4月也提出了應變策略中有曾經談到"},{"start":10163.524,"end":10178.368,"text":"非關稅貿易障礙是美國評估貿易夥伴對美貿易是否公平的指標因此我們將積極的解決已經存在多年的非關稅貿易障礙讓談判會更加的順利那請問副總談判代表總統所謂的非關稅貿易障礙為何"},{"start":10182.39,"end":10202.053,"text":"我想一般所謂的非關稅貿易障礙在講的就是技術性貿易障礙像TPT或者檢驗檢疫SPS那當然還有很多跟可能服務業或者是投資法規智慧財產權一般俗稱的所謂非關稅貿易障礙是在指這些議題但是這些議題"},{"start":10203.784,"end":10226.065,"text":"基本上台美有沒有去觸及到這些議題這個全部都是基於這些國際慣例所以我們也不便在這邊做進一步的一個討論好 那我相信現在全國人民其實都非常在乎的問題就是說這一次的實體談判的過程中美方是否具體要求台灣要在哪些領域做出讓步究竟有沒有要求我們要擴大開放汽車還有農業市場"},{"start":10229.088,"end":10231.93,"text":"尤其是和食安非常有關係的我們現在已經開放美國的豬肉和牛肉究竟有沒有談判到說台灣要進一步的放寬美豬還有美牛的內臟的進口還有我方目前對於放寬美豬美牛內臟的進口的立場是什麼"},{"start":10248.76,"end":10275.192,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢但是如同我剛剛提到的就是所有的議題美國當然會出於他自己本身的利益可以擴大他的出口的商機可以振興他自己的產業可以降低台美貿易逆差的大概都會是他所提出的關切但是就台灣來說我們台灣也有自己要去堅守的立場所以就這些議題我們仍然會遵守這些所謂的國際標準然後捍衛我們產業跟國家的利益"},{"start":10275.632,"end":10296.031,"text":"所以這個我們等到談判有具體的共識的時候一定會再跟我們的貴院做進一步的報告因為根據媒體報導上面有指出我國對美豬美牛的非關稅避雷以及萊豬的萊克多巴胺的殘留值都是談判卡關的原因之一我國打算放行過去管制美牛內臟還有絞肉還有豬腎的萊劑的容許值比照國際標準"},{"start":10301.757,"end":10320.85,"text":"據說農業部等相關的單位近期也有密集的開會的協商然後請問有這回事嗎然後我想說站在維護國民健康的立場我們至少對美豬美牛內臟的進口應該要更加堅定最好是不要再放寬了除此以外我也聽說我方已經用相關的訊息已經傳遞給美方了這樣那請問經貿辦這項的報導是否屬實呢"},{"start":10328.507,"end":10355.184,"text":"我想所有的報導都是來自於我們認為美國他可能要去降低貿易逆差然後要去有增加在台灣的出口商機而提出來幫美國去論述這些議題那如同我講的美國有美國的利益但是台灣有台灣的堅持所以我想我們兩邊都會各自去論述自己的主張那我們在努力在做的就是我們尋求大家可以凝聚"},{"start":10355.652,"end":10378.236,"text":"拉近我們彼此的距離達到最後符合台灣產業利益的方案好那除了萊克多巴胺殘留值的檢驗標準之外我在想還有一個問題就是台灣對進口豬肉的標示規定其實也成為美方批評的焦點那請問副總談判代表還有農業部美方是否有提出要求要移除豬肉的產地的標示呢"},{"start":10380.147,"end":10408.512,"text":"我想就是一樣的沒有可以講可以講如果說不能公開的話也沒有關係對我想就是很多的議題也會涉及到除了我們剛剛提到的工業跟農業都是要去尋求一個平衡性但是我們也要去兼顧的是貿易跟產業的平衡性之外台灣有台灣在國際義務上應該遵循國際標準國際潮流的按照科學證據風險評估的方式去處理這些跟健康安全有關的食安議題"},{"start":10409.352,"end":10430.484,"text":"所以我想台灣我們會按照這樣的一個角度持續去做為我們談判的立場因為還有一點就是基改食品我想基改食品對這個也是大家就是說很關注的項目雖然美國人的基改食品正義其實都是一直存在的美國貿易代表所在今年三月底的時候就公佈2025年各國貿易障礙的"},{"start":10433.025,"end":10454.077,"text":"評估的報告被列為不必要的貿易障礙的農產品就有包括美豬美牛還有稻米還有基改食品和米酒飲然後美國代表貿易的代表署再次也有點名我們台灣所以在報告的時候在2015年12月起台灣已經禁止在學校餐飲中使用基改的食品這樣例如基改的玉米還是大豆這方面的食品"},{"start":10454.697,"end":10458.658,"text":"但美國對這項禁令的科學依據都表示了非常的關切並持續要求台灣要撤回這項的措施那請問美方是不是希望台灣調整這個政策呢還是他們有沒有直接要求取消那個學童的營養午餐不得食用基改食品的這個禁令呢還是請問談判代表在協商中美國是不是有提出這項的要求呢"},{"start":10478.882,"end":10506.13,"text":"好 謝謝委員您應該是把美國的USTR的貿易障礙調查報告做了一個很完整的閱讀我想如同我剛才講的美國每年都在公布這些貿易障礙調查報告而這些問題都是他希望他的對手國要去處理然後因為他的目的只是要去增加他的出口增加他自己產業的競爭力所以如同我剛才提到的美國他可以提出他的訴求但是台灣有台灣的立場"},{"start":10507.628,"end":10536.556,"text":"所以但是台灣在堅守這個立場的過程我們必須要去考量到產業跟貿易的平衡性以及考量到國際標準現在的這個定位所以我想我們會努力在這方面去做堅持我想北西還是提醒請經貿辦務必還是要為全民的健康要捍衛這整個權益希望不要因為川普的對等的關稅的政策讓我們自己也錯估了情勢這樣會忽略台灣自身的利益還有尤其是國民健康的權益"},{"start":10537.653,"end":10540.519,"text":"好會按照委員的指示好謝謝那接下來我有請經濟部次長謝謝"},{"start":10551.127,"end":10565.818,"text":"委員好次長現在南部因為風災其實造成停電的問題相信現在所有的台電的同仁其實都是非常辛苦的搶救中相信全民對沒有電的生活其實大家是都是非常的恐懼的請問次長你擔心台灣會缺電嗎"},{"start":10569.977,"end":10576.323,"text":"我們有做完整的盤點從2025年到2030年之間的電力每年會成長2.5%這些我們都有掌握當中所以到2030年之前台灣不會缺電"},{"start":10584.346,"end":10597.958,"text":"那當初的再生能源的政策是不是以廢核和非核家園為出發點呢因此台電你為了彌補這次的供電的缺口其實拼命的燒煤還有燒天然氣發電外也只好全力增加了綠電現在問題就來了就是"},{"start":10600,"end":10604.584,"text":"同時現在目前河山停機之後發電佔比其實已經達九成以上了然後空污和碳排不斷的都在增加那老百姓現在為國家都是用肺在發電付出非常的健康的代價那台灣的電費漲價我們就不用說了半導體經濟的護國神山現在供電的吃緊"},{"start":10621.479,"end":10625.302,"text":"還有加上價格的看漲 其實再加上美國對等關稅的問題請問台灣的這樣的情況 台灣的經濟該如何成長還有你身為經濟部的長官的話一定知道這一次的颱風造成南部非常大的災害還有整個破壞這一次的颱風吹垮了整個光電的設施同時也吹出了台灣光電上面的建設甚至人員政策上面的問題也出來了"},{"start":10646.5,"end":10652.326,"text":"所以在這些災害裡面最引人矚目的就是最引發討論的甚至批評的就是光電板的災難的問題例如經濟部補助了上億元的海上的光電示範計畫這些就是因為經不起強風催產被催到海邊去還有光電板浮台的廢棄物就是綿延了超過了一公里"},{"start":10668.923,"end":10678.989,"text":"還有高雄大樹的河山光電案這也非常清楚的看到光電板廢棄物的災難的問題那這是出事的海上浮動式的光電經濟部說可以抗16級風但是結果是23級風就垮了那根據統計經濟部這幾年光是建構光電的設施就花了至少200億以上的預算這些到現在都是還在接受政府的補助結果一場颱風來就造成了光電板的災難那這要"},{"start":10698.559,"end":10712.783,"text":"如何的善後呢跟委員報告兩點說明第一點是這次確實颱風有造成我們一些光電的暗場有受損害總共大概有33案到目前統計的這個是60MW佔我們全國總"},{"start":10717.709,"end":10732.11,"text":"總容量的0.4%那第二點有關於您關心的這個我們的這些補助經費補助他這一次的這個目標試驗海域福台抗風浪的這個"},{"start":10732.872,"end":10747.595,"text":"它的最主要目的呢它是一個試驗的性質那我們補助的金額是1.35億元那未來本案呢還是會持續的按照契約的內容來執行我們也要求廠商必須要如期完成"},{"start":10748.534,"end":10763.005,"text":"海域服務台技術的驗證工作如果他們不能夠一約一約來執行的話我們就不會給他合撥相關的補助款那我們也在清除的部分也經濟部也積極的跟屏東縣府"},{"start":10765.507,"end":10787.343,"text":"來這個同調希望能夠儘速的完成清除因為最近就是因為天候還有海象不佳所以還是要顧及這個清除人員的安全那天候允許的話我們會加派人力還有相關的機器去來完成相關的清雲工作以上希望經濟部可以儘早跟環境部跨部會快點討論規劃怎麼樣去解決這個廢棄的光電板的處置問題是好 謝謝"},{"start":10793.561,"end":10798.442,"text":"謝謝林毅君委員質詢接下來由林倩琦委員上台質詢謝謝張偉主席、府院同仁大家好我以下就針對今天的主題想要就教我們外交部陳次長還有經濟部的江次長還有我們談判的副代表嚴副代表"},{"start":10830.241,"end":10837.386,"text":"針對這次談判的進度本席認為有幾個缺失希望你們也能趕快來處理以目前的資訊讓我們感覺到整個進度好像還蠻模糊的那我們有沒有一個具體共識然後時間表的確認"},{"start":10850.474,"end":10865.47,"text":"呃似乎在你們已經經過了三輪實體的談判那也多次的線上會議齁呃凝聚多項關鍵議題的共識那這是我們所得知到的訊息可是共識內容還有法律效力喔我們這邊好像都沒有一個"},{"start":10866.591,"end":10888.65,"text":"相關訊息的了解所以這個所謂關鍵議題本席在這邊跟您請教是不是涵蓋了半導體關稅的豁免或者是工具機等敏感的這個領域有沒有一些比較具體的回應那我本席這邊也希望外交部能夠就這個具體的說明達成共識的稅務清單跟讓步的底線"},{"start":10889.751,"end":10907.018,"text":"是不是可以有某種程度的讓我們了解那也讓國民安心那另外美方是不是有要求台灣單方面來開放市場來換取關稅的這個豁免那我們又如何在這樣一個情況下來平衡對等民意下的實質不對等"},{"start":10909.411,"end":10935.791,"text":"跟委員報告 首先是說就這個相關的細的這個細目碎則等等因為牽涉到 我要強調說雙方還在談判的過程之中我們當然對一些實質問題取得了一定的共識那麼但是說在這個方面我們到底在跟他具體的這個談判還有很多牽涉到貿易談判之中牽涉到的一個保密的這個雙方的保密的這個同意"},{"start":10936.511,"end":10958.307,"text":"所以這個沒辦法在這個時候就完全的就像剛才有本席這邊也是預期到所以我們這邊我剛才這邊提到的這個半導體還有工具機等等那不知道你們有沒有在這個內容上有一些本席這邊關心的進度跟共識那有或沒有那也希望如果你們現在還在這個過程當中那可以放進談判的內容裡面去做一個更細部的處理"},{"start":10964.972,"end":10979.804,"text":"那最重要就是說 那如果有不對等的情形我們如何在這方面做一個平衡那事實上我們的感覺都是不太對等好 那當然我就尊重您說談判的目前的這個進度的一個保留"},{"start":10980.384,"end":11005.665,"text":"不過我要跟委員報告一下你說說不對等我想這個大概也是這個稍微強了一點那麼我們當然我們希望就我們目前資訊的這個了解可能給大家這樣一個意向外界有很多的猜測可能不見得到後來那也因為我們看不到不是那麼透明那當然大家也都很關心所以這個部分我也是提出來給你們做個參考好不好"},{"start":11007.987,"end":11029.456,"text":"那整個談判的延期那目前這個關稅暫緩到8月1號但是裡面也沒有談到那如果8月1號假設我們談判沒有一個結果或談判破裂那我們怎麼應變所以那如果8月1號之前還沒有達到共識的話那台灣出口到美國的商品是直接適用這個未公佈的稅率嗎那這個稅率"},{"start":11031.457,"end":11051.032,"text":"推算的基準為何那當然我們可以參考目前已經公佈的幾波像巴西從10%一下子到了50%那日本、韓國都有稍微增長在最後一刻都產生了一些變化所以商務部稱即便發寒以後還會仍舊繼續持續地來做談判那這個是不是代表"},{"start":11054.474,"end":11078.943,"text":"在8月1號稅率生效之後呢我們可以爭取回溯的一個調整呢那你們對於這方面有沒有掌握呢現在我們所掌握到的deadline是這個8月1號了8月1號之前我們現在也已經雙方約定在進行這個實際的實體的這個談判那麼我們在這個談判上面我們都是盡心盡力我覺得雙方也在拉近這個"},{"start":11081.945,"end":11095.38,"text":"其實我想我們也會有一些預期那也有一些預判嘛所以像巴西50%然後跟英國又達成了這個初步協議感覺上他們是在透過個案敲打"},{"start":11096.381,"end":11111.288,"text":"的策略然後來模糊跟每一個國家的這個稅率所以我們的猜測當然從這幾波然後一直到我們關心的我們的整個產業問題這樣子的猜測似乎它這個個案敲打的策略"},{"start":11113.129,"end":11138.514,"text":"不知道會不會奏效但是台灣在列入還沒有公佈的一個貿易大戶所以美方說稅率也會依照雙邊的關係上修或下調那你們對於美國的這個對台稅率是不是有一些測算的模型這個當然是不是你們在去談之前就會有這樣一個模擬那有沒有參考台美的貿易順差半導體依存度來"},{"start":11140.715,"end":11154.976,"text":"應對美國再工業化然後如果在關稅上逼使我們的半導體或廠商再赴美設廠那對我們的產業影響是不是很大那當然外交部在這裡面的角色也是非常重要的那您這邊的一個看法跟回應呢"},{"start":11155.729,"end":11159.174,"text":"當然說對於委員所關心的個別的產業來說,我想這還有很多的在雙方的細節上面的談判處理。我們也不對於最終的稅率,現在恐怕也不是一個好的時機來做任何的推測。"},{"start":11172.751,"end":11197.791,"text":"那麼就可以保證確保的是說我們盡最大的誠意最大的努力來進行談判那還是一樣就是說我們在維護國家利益維護這個產業的利益那麼確保國人的這個健康跟這個維持這個糧食安全上面這個四個重要的這個行政院所提示的一個原則之下來這個跟美國進行談判那麼我們也當然應該是一個共識"},{"start":11200.333,"end":11218.494,"text":"就像剛剛委員所說的這個我們台美之間貿易結構的一個互補性我們也充分的呈現了我們的這個依存那麼這不是一個誰或對誰一個不公平貿易我想美方也完整的掌握我們在整個半導體或是在其他的產業上面的這個互補"},{"start":11220.175,"end":11235.119,"text":"謝謝薛瑞希望我方也能夠充分的掌握美國在對於我們整個內容上的一個了解可能會出現的一些策略所以最後我可能問一下這個經濟部次長跟談判的這個談判委員好對"},{"start":11238.861,"end":11257.459,"text":"那針對這個高關稅可能對我們產業的影響我想在四月份大家都已經被那一劑被他們打了一劑然後有很大的一個衝擊所以對於我們長期依賴的出口的我們而言那這個時候的制裁性關稅不僅是會是經濟問題也是產業的一個警訊"},{"start":11261.483,"end":11274.75,"text":"那這一個當頭棒喝如果經濟部還像以前我們經常談產業要升級是一種口號式的被動對待跟當前目前我們看這個情形有點像是新冷戰結構下的一個經貿重組那這個風險下我們可能會錯失產業重組跟戰略轉型的一個"},{"start":11283.314,"end":11311.455,"text":"可能所以如果未來這個部分如本席這邊所預期的可能產業外輿跟空洞化的結構性危機就會出現所以我們講比較核心的我們的這個中下游的電子業跟汽車產業所製造的這個衝擊不知道經濟部目前的掌握為何那至於PCB跟封裝測試的中下游產業常年都是以毛利率高產能的模式在支撐那"},{"start":11312.956,"end":11323.561,"text":"如果僅靠你們的財政補助跟單點技術的升級看來已經很難因應外部系統化的一個風險那你們對這個部分有什麼應對的方式嗎"},{"start":11325.051,"end":11347.684,"text":"報告委員我們對一些可能會受到衝擊尤其是像傳統型的產業我們都有特別給予關注我們所做的方式包括第一個就是幫他們去尋找新的出海口新的出口市場例如像汽車零配件今年的九月份在法蘭克福有全世界最大的汽車零配件的展覽"},{"start":11349.305,"end":11372.764,"text":"邀集了300多家汽車零配件的廠商會去參展此外我們會提升他們的研發能力所以一向的經濟部都有對於提升我們產業界的研發的能力也有給予相關的支持我想這些做法也都蠻古典的所以我在這邊跟你們一個建議看看你們是不是能夠這樣做是不是可以建立一個以出口依賴程度與產業風險為指標的一個應變平台"},{"start":11377.788,"end":11402.124,"text":"就是針對出口依賴程度跟產業風險那如果有一個應變平台那針對特定關鍵產業組成一個快速因應的小組那麼跨部會然後讓整個出口替代市場的分析供應鏈透過你們這個小組能夠很快的快速因應那我想這也是一個針對目前很多模糊不清的美國對我們的這個戰略一個因應的方式"},{"start":11408.249,"end":11409.59,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們陳冠林委員上台發言謝謝趙委員 我們請市長 農業部"},{"start":11432.689,"end":11452.862,"text":"市長我剛再次重新再研讀你們給我們的報告就是針對我國可能的衝擊那我必須說這種談判桌下隨時可能會重大影響農民的關稅那我們的這個相關的報告裡面他所提到的進口衝擊基本上沒有提"},{"start":11453.482,"end":11475.354,"text":"那你是放在出口的影響但是我們知道對農民最大的影響絕對是進口上面的這個衝擊我覺得不是很具體那當然因為這一個今天的這個時間有限那我是希望說未來類似相關的這一種討論有這樣子的質詢的時候麻煩可以把一些影響的衝擊要數字在裡面而不是只有形容詞這樣對我們的整體農業包含農民自己"},{"start":11479.036,"end":11494.327,"text":"對衝擊的準備也會比較妥適那我必須再強調現在是有風災如果風災之後又有一個超越我們想像的這個特別是對我們本土農業的衝擊的話那是影響會很大的所以我看到你在那邊提到說什麼關於"},{"start":11496.548,"end":11515.414,"text":"鬼頭刀、吳郭魚、鱸魚等等六項產業輸美戰比高這是你對等關稅對我國農業的影響及因應這絕對是避重就輕的特別是進口的部分我必須要確認的是在川普的這個政府全面性的他對許多國家都是要求他們全面性的市場開放那"},{"start":11515.734,"end":11530.863,"text":"我們農業部有沒有針對幾個重要的品項進口的重要的品項要做好這個準備包含稻米豬雞還有水果等所有高風險產業你現在的最壞情況下的衝擊評估是什麼有沒有可不可以簡單跟我們所有的農民朋友來報告"},{"start":11531.563,"end":11549.155,"text":"謝謝委員關心跟支持我們的台灣農業我想對於不管是出口或進口在農業部來講其實都是重要的這一定是第一點那第二點美國跟台灣的農業的貿易其實是有互補性比方說美國現在到台灣來最多的是黃小玉跟牛肉他進口的主要是這一些"},{"start":11549.795,"end":11557.324,"text":"那至於剛剛委員提到的豬肉其實台灣豬肉自給率大概90%進口大概10%那10%裡面美國大概佔8%所以它實際能夠供應到台灣其實衝擊不大但即便衝擊不大對農業還是有衝擊所以我想就農業部的立場"},{"start":11567.008,"end":11588.63,"text":"第一個當然在台灣上面我們一定維護我們台灣的農業的重要的競爭力跟我們的永續那農民權益決定要放在最優先這是第一點那第二點就關切項目比方說像豬肉台灣自給率百分之九十那農業部要做的是協助我們台灣的譬如說養豬農也好其他的農業也好特別是這次在風災之後我想"},{"start":11589.711,"end":11611.523,"text":"嘉義台南真的是受傷很嚴重,對我們來講真是心在糖血那怎麼讓我們農業趕快在這個天然災害之後趕快站起來,趕快回復工作我想這是農業部刻不容緩的工作那農業部既然有這樣的回應,我們當然是非常樂觀的看待但是還是要強調,包含稻米這一次它不是在我們天災裡面的這個項目裡面,全品項裡面它不包含稻米"},{"start":11611.983,"end":11634.123,"text":"但是現在已經有很多民眾 特別是我們的農民朋友 因為沒有在裡面但是現在變成要現勘等等 因為他不是在全品項裡面現在開始重新都已經有苗都跑出來了 這個問題是很嚴重所以這個 既然今天剛好市長在的話 麻煩就是一併帶回去討論一下好不好那這個是第一點對農民的這個讓他整個災害能夠趕快復原 這是第一優先的事"},{"start":11634.423,"end":11649.129,"text":"那日本的這個道明的這個問題是很嚴重那美國跟日本也因此他的關稅是沒有談好特別對他們的政局有很大的影響這個部分市長可不可以來簡單來回應一下對我國的話會有沒有什麼樣的歧視"},{"start":11650.31,"end":11666.052,"text":"整體的影響我想農業各個品項其實美方當然有他的期待那對農業部來講其實該要堅守該要保護我們農民這絕對是我們最優先的原則也是我們談判的一個方向所以不管是在任何品項的農業的不管是"},{"start":11666.793,"end":11685.484,"text":"要去談底線要去談對等要去談開放我想我們都會以最審慎的方式因為台灣農業還是我們自己台灣農業最優先那對於美國來講他來到台灣的就像剛剛提到的不管是黃豆小麥玉米牛肉這是我們台灣需要的品項那我們也會持續這樣對等的來處理"},{"start":11687.545,"end":11703.576,"text":"對 那我不希望說看到我們的關稅它可能是降低但是它要付出來的代價是一整個農業那特別是我們嘉南地區雲嘉南地區它所代表的人口比例是高的而且他們同時是最脆弱最弱勢的一環"},{"start":11704.116,"end":11725.775,"text":"因為務農的年齡層又是高的所以在這種雙重的脆弱性的話我們不可以為了幾個強項的產業然後來去犧牲我國的農業特別是在雲江南地區這個市長麻煩農業部在這一次的談判裡面你們要扮演的角色要更重要不是只是為了工業不會只是為我們高科技產業"},{"start":11726.956,"end":11742.387,"text":"這個你們要站出來謝謝委員支持台灣農業因為農業確實是一個很特殊的類別因為除了是我們的農地除了是我們的農民其實還有糧食安全所以我想這次我們農業部一定會堅守的立場這個一定要堅守它是我們的重中之重來 我們簡單來請外交部謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":11752.593,"end":11775.385,"text":"市長現在美國的參議院的軍委會有通過2026年的國防授權法案條文他出了強烈建議我們邀請他們邀請台灣來參加環台軍演他也授權美台共同研發下一代的無人機或反無人機系統那我講這件事情因為他不僅是軍事合作他也是戰略的這個科技產業鏈跨國制度的這個對接的問題"},{"start":11776.966,"end":11784.754,"text":"那我們台灣的外交系統通常在面對這類議題都往往停留在轉交 陪同就是交給其他相關部會去做"},{"start":11785.799,"end":11814.06,"text":"但我希望這一次藉著這一次我們希望未來你能夠去塑造情勢而不是被情勢塑造主動要提出你們的戰略因為未來不是只有台美雙邊把這樣子的議題說2026年的這個國防授權法案裡面有強烈建議參加環太軍演還有共同研發是不是你們主動可以跟其他的國家包含日本 韓國 波蘭你們主動塑造情勢為什麼要特別講到主動塑造情勢因為這些國家都有自主的國防產業"},{"start":11815.061,"end":11833.58,"text":"都是能够合作的那特别是韩国我们最近访韩的时候我有跟他们的包含他的这个之前的日美联军的应该是四星的这个上相副总司令有提到这样子的产业的合作其实韩国的鞠躬产业是可以扮演重要角色特别在无人机产业我们都是重要的一环那我就要"},{"start":11834.341,"end":11846.236,"text":"不要說國防部就國防部經濟部就經濟部每一個都是分別的外交部是可以主動去塑造情勢來去率領我們各個部會來去跟這些國家主動接洽創造情勢可不可以"},{"start":11847.991,"end":11867.848,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒,我想這是外交部一直以來的一個重要的目標。透過產業的合作,事實上包括我們看到最近各國增加國防預算,在國防產業的發展上面都提供了很好的一個機會。我們希望能夠跟其他的國家合作,一方面也能夠帶動我們國內的產業的發展,二方面能夠厚實我們國防的實力。"},{"start":11873.012,"end":11897.412,"text":"那委員的剛才的這樣的一個提法我覺得非常的贊同也是我們外交部努力的這場主動出擊就是林部長不是說人人都是外交官嘛每一個地方都是外交部可以來去協助的範疇那特別是我們都知道無人機是國防部、中科院研發、經濟部管理技術等等但是我們現在包含美國國會的這些都是一個很主動的指標那這個指標好像外交部"},{"start":11898.612,"end":11917.003,"text":"有一個帶領性戰略性的一個考量那再來就是我還是要提醒次長跟外交部的同仁我們其實也不只是外交部的同仁包含國安會的同仁國安會自己要想清楚現在根據PO的民調各個國家對於美方的"},{"start":11918.414,"end":11926.562,"text":"觀感是有變化的包含他傳統的盟友傳統的盟友裡面甚至有些是認為他是最大的威脅加拿大 墨西哥所以我們的措辭"},{"start":11928.667,"end":11950.35,"text":"外交部當然是比較審慎啦但過去的外交部沒有那麼審慎不可以只單純的站在美方的立場要注重我們其他盟友的立場包含澳洲包含日本包含歐洲國家不能夠單純的站在一方的立場而不去考量說我們是重視多邊的一個國家不要時時刻刻有一些社群媒體"},{"start":11951.909,"end":11978.444,"text":"之前的社群媒體就是動不動就爆衝我希望在林部長的這個時代是不會有這樣子的不會有這樣子的狀況出現不會再有這樣的狀況出現這是很嚴肅的議題因為我們看得到這個趨勢是有在改變的但我們要確保的是在印太地區我們每一個盟友我們能夠站在對方的角度跟我們自己的利益同時來去併種而不是只是單純的用爆衝式的言語這是很重要的這是說外交"},{"start":11980.505,"end":11998.553,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員的提醒,我們當然全面的這個關係都要進展,我們包括跟對美、對日、對這個加拿大、對澳洲、對歐洲的其他的理念相近的國家,我們都同等的重視,那麼我們很多的時候其實在安全的議題之外,在很多的經貿的議題上面,我們一方面也積極的為我們的廠商開拓商機,"},{"start":12002.975,"end":12029.794,"text":"二方面也是能夠交換意見那麼中國如何共同的因應這個變動中的整個全球經貿的情勢我特別提醒就是以後我們外交我們跟中國是不一樣的國家中國用那種非常強烈式的語言我們就剛好要跟他相反我們要站在跟歐洲國家立場是比較既溫和又理性但是同時能夠關乎我們國家利益然後來去做有效的因應一定"},{"start":12030.254,"end":12057.114,"text":"措辭特別是很重要的外交部的這個影響力很大的所以我們希望未來過去的錯誤我們不要再重複因為我聽到很多各個代表處有曾經提到過去這樣好像不太適切我在這邊正式跟你召回感謝這個委員的提點但是我要說過去的時候那麼也有他那個時候的時空好謝謝陳冠廷委員的資訊接下來由李昆成委員上台資訊"},{"start":12065.388,"end":12071.458,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個我們經貿談判辦公室的嚴副總談判代表"},{"start":12078.408,"end":12104.363,"text":"你好 辛苦了這一陣子 我們的這個經貿談判辦公室那請問一下副總代表這個按照你們的資料這個川普總統在7月7號簽署這個行政命令目前台灣的關稅應該就是屬於這10%嘛 對不對這個暫時的關稅然後呢延長到8月1號那所以呢 我想請問一下這個在這段期間在8月1號之前我們的關稅就是10%對"},{"start":12106.397,"end":12131.713,"text":"八月一號之前會不會有什麼樣的變化八月一號以前按照現在川普總統的這個信函的說法是不會有變化的還有行政命令的公告對那可是他也常常開講嘛比如說像今天他就講說跟這個印尼的這一個關稅是多少然後就說有宣布說有一百多個小國家關稅可能就會比十趴再多一點點那會在八月一號之前有任何的變化嗎"},{"start":12132.983,"end":12148.894,"text":"這些國家他只是告訴他們說8月1號以前請你們努力來跟美國協商如果你沒有在8月1號以前協商一個新的稅率的話那8月1號以後你的稅率就是像今年的印尼可能就是19%像歐盟可能就30%"},{"start":12150.607,"end":12173.258,"text":"那在這一段期間這些國家也同樣還是10%的暫行關稅所以台灣在8月1號之前有可能都是維持10%的關稅就對了現在的行政命令川普的做法確實所有的國家不論有沒有收到信函都還是8月1號以前都是10%的暫行關稅那現在是不是可以說no news is good news"},{"start":12174.851,"end":12202.591,"text":"我覺得我們不論有沒有收到信函對台灣來說努力在這個關鍵的最後一里路我們努力衝刺就是在8月1號我們要取得最好的關稅那我覺得就是我們現在談判團隊在努力做的事情好那按照你們的資料就是說你們現在當然你們也很辛苦在5月1號6月25號7月8號都有在美國華府完成這個實體的這個諮商那你們也希望說在8月1號之前完成協議"},{"start":12204.272,"end":12229.674,"text":"然後呢也初步約定下一輪實體磋商的時程那如果按照你們的資料這樣來講話是不是在8月1號之前先會有一個暫定的一個協議然後呢但是這可能不是最終的協議到了8月1號之後你們會再去華府再跟這一個美國的這一個比如說商務部或是他們貿易代表再進行實體磋商"},{"start":12231.36,"end":12259.599,"text":"跟委員報告我想美國現在的做法呢因為我們聽到很多其他國家的訊息也是眾所紛紜有的國家可能直接他們已經達到了所謂原則性的共識有的國家提到他們會簽聯合聲明那我想台灣不論我們是要走哪一個形式我們的重點是跟美方達成共識那這個共識是用什麼法律文件來呈現我想都不是我們現在主要的這個優先目標"},{"start":12262.401,"end":12286.036,"text":"實質內容我覺得會比法律文件的形式更是我們現在想要去關切的部分那我的意思是說在努力在8月1號之前你們希望能夠達成協議但是你們也約好了下一次實體談判的一個時程所以我的意思是說還會再去美國再去談就對了"},{"start":12287.686,"end":12313.063,"text":"我想我們現在的規劃是希望可以在實體的對話但是我們也知道現在應該拿到有25個經濟體已經收到的信函一定大家都在華府排隊要跟他們談判所以我們當然很努力的要去掛上號但是不論怎麼樣我們一定會在8月1號以前希望要跟美方用各種形式去交換意見重點就是8月1號以前我們要拿到協議好"},{"start":12314.505,"end":12331.079,"text":"那這個在談判的過程當中這個give and take嘛那我看 我都是看你們的資料來講啦就是說這樣看起來就是有兩個地方一個是貿易的逆差那另外一個是這一個應該是非關稅的貿易障礙啦"},{"start":12333.081,"end":12352.153,"text":"那因為按照你們這個貿易障礙來講你們這邊有提到說我們會以維護國民健康為原則並在符合科學證據 國際標準 國際經貿的規範求取平衡這一段的敘述啦雖然沒有提到農業但是我看起來像是在談農業是不是"},{"start":12354.427,"end":12366.563,"text":"我想我們可以從美國基本上在對等關稅這個談判的訴求它叫做Reciprocal Trade那剛剛實際上有好多委員都有追尋到什麼叫做對等這是美國認為這個談判過去以來它所面對的各國的關稅結構對它是不對等不公平的"},{"start":12371.65,"end":12394.766,"text":"所以對等關稅的談判他的目的就是希望要去重新改造這個關稅結構那所以當然就會涉及到台灣現在的進口關稅結構對美國來說他覺得有沒有是產生他的貿易逆差的關鍵因素或者是有沒有對他的出口利益產生了一些阻礙那我覺得這很多的議題都是美國本身利益的訴求"},{"start":12395.526,"end":12412.77,"text":"可是對台灣來說如同剛才委員特別點出來的我們就是繼續堅持我們認為有些東西可以討論但是有些東西我們就是由我們自己的產業利益跟國家利益存在但這整個過程我們就是在求取貿易跟產業之間的最大平衡"},{"start":12416.051,"end":12442.543,"text":"因為談判本來就是這樣子吧一定有我們自己的核心的利益那些東西是不能讓在美國來講它也是它有一些東西它也不能讓那當然就是雙方在談判這才有的談我只是說按照你們提供的資料啦因為談判都還在進行當中其實也不宜問太多太細我只是就公開的資料可以看到說你們一個是在談貿易逆差另外一個是在談這一個非關稅的障礙那我一看"},{"start":12443.303,"end":12468.578,"text":"我覺得啦 是在談這個農業農業對於 我相信剛剛也有很多立委都有提到有關農業的這些核心利益台灣還是要守住那當然就是看你們怎麼去跟美國在談直接說看到目前為止就是有兩個東西必須要再去做處理的所以在8月1號之前會有驚喜嗎"},{"start":12470.785,"end":12495.215,"text":"我們會希望為國人帶來是驚喜喜悅的結果好OK好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝李坤城委員的質詢以下已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答的結束那本會會議由沈伯陽召委林楚英委員提出書面質詢"},{"start":12496.395,"end":12509.102,"text":"请列入记录并刊登公报委员书面及口头执行及未答复部分请相关单位以书面以量作内答复本日会议到此结束上会"},{"start":12518.688,"end":12519.128,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12547.892,"end":12563.541,"text":"謝謝觀賞"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}