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就是就是舊歷年過後第一時間你就掌握了全部的內容嗎已經有隔幾天了隔了幾天但是你就有看到全部的內容你是事前掌握還是事後再補救啊都比較後面的時候我有得知就是因為他的家屬希望這個辭職能夠盡速生效"},{"start":79.942,"end":102.674,"text":"因為他的身份有雙重的因為他還有我們這個所謂台美會的對嘛 他是以台美會的這個身份來加入OTM 經貿談判辦公室嘛是所以這個我想有幾個問題要就教一下這個部長 不過那辭呈的內容你事前不見得第一時間能掌握這本身倒是可以理解但事後這個東西變成新聞話題了他自然內容重點你可以簡單報告一下吧"},{"start":103.547,"end":126.577,"text":"他會執政裡面提的哪些重點我想他有提到我們談判的機制人才還有涉及到就是跟CPTPP這個談判的怎麼去推動沒錯一個叫做CPTPP的政策執行狀況一個叫做談判人才培養的一個制度還有第三個是內部溝通的失靈大概就是這三件事情分別要跟部長做一下探討這個我想喔"},{"start":129.722,"end":152.992,"text":"我們就從CPTPP開始談因為今天主題還是經貿談判協議嘛對不對這個嚴富代表的辭呈明確的指出這個我們國家領導人層級啊這個對內的強力宣示啊甚至要求部分的政策開放都是基於說要加速CPTPP申請入會的這樣一個程序但是這個辭呈裡面講實際的執行程式恐怕不是這樣卻充滿了消極敷衍的態度這個落差很大"},{"start":153.772,"end":172.865,"text":"那我也聽了部長前一段時間的回應也好,答詢也好,也有講到,你說每一個國家的立場現在都有掌握對不對?因為12個會員國,奧克蘭三原則要全部有共識決,對不對?全部國家立場您都有掌握嗎?我們都有持續掌握中,而且去交涉。有掌握有交涉,那可不可以告訴大家誰贊成誰反對呢?現在?"},{"start":174.619,"end":190.205,"text":"因為我們都要面對到可能中共的因素那有一些我就不好代為說明因為講的時候中共可能會針對某一個對象有一些施壓那多少國家支持多少國家反對基本上沒有國家反對台灣因為"},{"start":191.525,"end":198.31,"text":"大家要瞭解台灣是符合所有自由貿易的條件我們這幾年有很大的進展因為台美簽了21世紀貿易倡議我們又跟包括英國、加拿大很多都簽了一些像ETP部長你先回答問題因為奧克蘭三原則高標準、能力跟意願我相信我們台灣也有做到"},{"start":213.18,"end":236.919,"text":"遵循貿易規範 我覺得我們表現應該不錯唯一的障礙 其實剛剛很多人也諮詢嘛 其實就是共識覺嘛那你剛剛講通過國家都沒有反對 那共識覺這怎麼會是問題呢好 那我跟委員簡單說明齁就是反對要找理由 你要說明 你不能說我們要申請 我們要去說服每個國家 可是有些國家有政治的顧慮或怕中國經濟協同 我跟你講 他有政治的顧慮或其他壓迫也都是反對的 我跟委員講 我這邊很重要 客觀的障礙嘛"},{"start":238.38,"end":257.594,"text":"也就是說所謂共識決是你反對要有理由能夠說服別人不是說啊我不贊成所以現在您的意思是講說沒有辦法達成共識決是因為有部分的會員國反對但是都不講理由事實上這些所謂的會員國他並沒有公開反對也沒有公開反對對對對但是他就是沒有辦法給你12個"},{"start":260.717,"end":269.206,"text":"會員都正式的表態另外有一個我們在突破的就是所謂因為他要成立工作小組所以現在有一個方式在加拿大當主席國的時候他已經允許你所謂的pre-consultation"},{"start":275.894,"end":301.046,"text":"你在成立工作小組之前的雙邊的諮商是可以進行的所以我們跟某些國家有展開雙邊諮商我現在問的是數量 比如12個會員國裡面因為要全部共識 或是大家至少要開綠燈我們才能順利的通過那12個國家裡面有多少國家也開綠燈 我不講個別吧我現在有公開講的 包括像日本 英國都是有公開講台灣的進入是支持的我們要突破障礙 突破障礙裡面還有幾個國家反對"},{"start":303.015,"end":322.794,"text":"不管他有沒有講正當的理由目前是真的沒有國家敢公開反對因為台灣的符合自由貿易的程度都比現在這12個國家高很多現在成立工作小組的有一些自由貿易程度還差我們很多也意思說大家都談得很愉快所以這會變成政治去介入到所謂共識覺我今天沒有在跟你討論這個政治我們要讓他凸顯出來就是說你反對要說理由"},{"start":325.656,"end":346.614,"text":"是啊 因為說理由他就說不出理由說不出理由就等於贊成因此這樣子我們12票我就要問你幾個國家幾個國家沒贊成但說不出理由的幾個國家贊成說不出理由反對說不出理由就沒有辦法開綠燈嗎就沒有國家真的反對啊沒有國家真的反對但是共識覺得過不了這不是很矛盾嗎就是有政治利益介入啊"},{"start":348.567,"end":377.397,"text":"好啦 副長也算是能言善道啦我講的是幫你啦大家都很努力啦 是不是啊輪值的從加拿大到澳洲馬上要到越南 對不對因為大家要知道的是這包含不管是這個嚴副總談判代表最後的這個辭職信裡面所談他都關切的內容我們就總要具體的關心具體的推進 對吧對啊 所以我們就要面對問題但今天你又講說有些國家這個反對但講不出理由那應該就是贊成但是好像因為又有壓力所以突破不了共識決 好吧你有一套說法"},{"start":377.717,"end":388.518,"text":"那到底我們做不做得到 有沒有明確的時間表呢現在行政院有說要整個來推動嘛我們外交部是其中扮演一個角色"},{"start":390.714,"end":418.194,"text":"所以有沒有辦法有具體的時間表 或者是安排因為有各種談判 時間表跟具體方式都沒有要正確的認識奧克蘭三原則不要被扭曲 變成政治力介入 這第一點第二點 我們要成立工作小組啊 必須主席國家比如今年是越南他如果是正面的態度 那站他在主持這個會議的時候 空間表達對 會議的時候他現在是不是正面態度我們都主持會友說 沒有反對 我們就率成"},{"start":418.994,"end":438.728,"text":"啊你又說一一投票 你們是不是贊成 那很多人就說我們沒意見我們就眼下看眼前嘛 那越南友善嗎 會不會有壓力我們應該說台越之間有很多合作的公司我們有很多合作的公司啊 台商等等 非常密切那談判是這樣子嘛 除了我們參加這個 我們來說你以外你有多大把握他今年會很有善的態度 我們有軍事會兼顧到"},{"start":441.03,"end":463.222,"text":"你有多大把握他今年會是友善的態度我們在裡面有機會解決這個要由行政院整體的來做談判策略外交部我們因為有外管我們會去執行外管也是你抓種吧對不對除以在外管方面外交部會去就是說指示他們怎麼去推動可是上位的"},{"start":464.282,"end":493.822,"text":"談判的目標跟策略是要有整個政府的整體的 全政府的整體考量來來來 沒關係啦我們今天在這邊表達關切因為這些東西第一越具體越好第二有一些明確的進展作為政策到底要花多少的資源跟心力在上面大家務實的看待我想是有必要的如果今年越南可能基於政治的壓力不見得友善那你就跟大家清楚的說明我們這個Priority稍微後面一點先處理台美關稅這都可以講這就是道理"},{"start":494.542,"end":518.037,"text":"但如果 他是友善的 我要加碼 你也要講嘛所以我今天問你的原因是這個 多少人贊成多少人反對委員講到重點了啦 對不對重點就在這裡所以你要明確整體談判的規則 雙邊關係那我們再簡單一點這是give and take嘛那今年越南輪值主席 你是樂觀還是悲觀簡單一點就好因為現在我們需要行政院有一個談判的目標跟策略的指導"},{"start":520.253,"end":548.982,"text":"譬如說我們台商投資我們的貿易很多然後台商發展半導體的產業我們的政策工具喔我跟委員講其實在所以你個人現在位置上的專業評估你覺得是樂觀還是悲觀嘛我的角色是外交部長這個經貿談判是有一個機制就是我們的角色把它扮演好我提醒部長我們花了八分多鐘的時間去談這件事情今天這樣子的一個回答恰恰就是嚴副總談判代表擔心的事情嘛"},{"start":549.542,"end":575.59,"text":"好啦這一題先到這裡因為我還有別題要問啦第二個其實我更關心的其實是這個外交人才的徵補跟掌握在本席了解OTM的編制上當然談判總代表抓總兩個副總談判代表的設置原則上就本席的粗淺的認識啦一個是經濟部體系嘛因為我要了解國內的產業對吧產能夠做合理的策略安排一個當然是外交部體系要尊重外交體系的專業演副總談判代表是哪一個體系出來的"},{"start":576.581,"end":601.748,"text":"他算是 所以他是比較是 雖然是掛在這個台北他是經貿 不是他的背景的專業另外一個是我們的陳明基政事啊你要補他位子的是陳明基政事是不是外交體系出來的對好 現在他的裡面過去他所揭露的一些狀況不管是對內的溝通也好或者是怎麼樣顯然他受了蠻大的一個委屈啊那我想請問啊 他是外交部"},{"start":602.088,"end":616.814,"text":"在派駐 等於是外交部放在經貿談判辦公室裡面代表外交部的人才不是不是不是 我們外交部是城市政事啊他只是因為經貿談判辦公室是任務編組那他需要有一個政府的一個角色 那是同時間"},{"start":617.554,"end":632.299,"text":"他以台灣美國事務委員會主委身份兼任嘛所以當然是在外交體系嘛好他在裡面遇到問題或者是遇到一些委屈的時候外交部有沒有事前的掌握他有沒有循線跟你來做反應您在這個過程中扮演了什麼角色可不可以簡單回答一下"},{"start":633.306,"end":658.759,"text":"因為這是有經貿台灣辦公室在主政啦那屬於台美會的部分比如說我們有美國的貴賓來我們也會邀請這個台美會的這個主席來參與這是屬於台美會的事務所以你跟他只聊台美會是不聊OTN的經貿台灣辦公室他們在主政完蛋了你這樣回答我就幫他捏把冷汗難怪他會孤軍奮戰嘛"},{"start":660.694,"end":684.635,"text":"他當然期待外交部在裡面協助一下因為從他個人的身份他也不能跟他的黨官作對比如說我們外交部我們當然也會請中經院進行對於加入CPTPP對德國經貿包括對於GDP的影響我們這個就是屬於我們透過我們外交部的機制在做可是談判策略是行政院經貿辦公室整體"},{"start":686.277,"end":704.859,"text":"包括經濟部、農業部等等我真是捏了一把冷汗它裡面點出來的問題其實就是理論上來講這東西要兼顧產業的專業也要兼顧外交的專業兩邊要一起提供人才共同討論形成理性決策這才是OTA應該扮演的角色但顯然在裡面它所呈現出來的"},{"start":705.76,"end":726.772,"text":"不管是他的控訴也好或怎麼樣顯現出來是不對稱的也就是出現我都不談是不是符合霸凌等等細節這不是我今天要爭論的重點但在裡面顯然受了委屈而且孤軍奮戰外交部應該要提供適時的協助跟支援所以這就是我為什麼問你在這個過程中有沒有尋求外交部的協助或者是相關團隊的支持呢"},{"start":728.693,"end":755.178,"text":"我們在外交部做 我剛剛有報告我們派了三個次長到三個國家派了次長去遊說然後我們也做了調查報告然後我們也發動外管所以屬於外交部的這個部分我相信委員也質詢過很多我們對情資的掌握包括我剛剛講的那些所謂三原則的解釋然後所謂pre consultation在成立工作小組之間的雙邊智商也可以展開這個就是屬於"},{"start":756.638,"end":766.761,"text":"我現在就單純問你我們外交部一定有很多人也參與經貿談判嘛他們有沒有跟嚴副總代表有保持密切的溝通給予事實的支持然後你有沒有掌握他受到委屈的狀況有或沒有嘛"},{"start":768.597,"end":797.152,"text":"沒有的話他就是個問題需要檢討改進我講他提的現象是存在的對不對就是他提到的問題的現象是存在的我們當然要整個行政院我們整個經貿談判的策略我們的團隊我們的分工我們的策略都需要這個應該要徹底的檢討我希望部長您代表的是外交部全部你是外交部的龍頭啊外交部的體系在經貿談判裡面是很重要的"},{"start":797.712,"end":818.187,"text":"我剛剛你剛剛講現在顯然有點缺乏資源的狀況我要再追著問因為他體現另外一個問題叫經貿談判人才的缺乏我們現在部裡面接下來還有多少的經貿談判的人才儲備委員我可以跟你講一個現象嗎比如說經貿談判公司他是借調我們外交部的同仁一棍去跑他這個對我們外交同仁他的一個升遷可能就會有影響不利的影響對不對"},{"start":824.971,"end":840.161,"text":"當然就是我們還是很支持啊可是這個也要找到適合的人所以外交部第一個在體制上制度上的修正第一要距離立章所以經貿談判的人才確實是一個要有一個國家的談判人才要有專門的儲備機制嘛你是要考量到他就是人才的整個這個制度嘛"},{"start":842.982,"end":862.852,"text":"這個委員講的是非常非常關鍵的我今天沒有要為難你的意思但是我今天一定要藉這樣子允把話點出來要不然真的顏副總談判代表的委屈就白受了嘛就一定是制度要完整你剛剛講到 部長你剛剛回答得來 至少我們今天還有點建設性也就是說 哎呀 如果借調到OTM體系等等因為人家是經濟部主導 這是歷年來的習慣"},{"start":864.853,"end":883.189,"text":"那反而對我們外交人員的升遷跟發展可能會遭受影響所以可能普遍會出現相對困難跟意願低落的狀況這就是行政體系要檢討的東西嘛要不然現在這件事情調查完又傳過水無痕所有事情保持一致外交談判 經貿談判人才持續稀缺那所有事情原地踏步就完蛋了"},{"start":883.752,"end":905.043,"text":"不然我今天話有一點激動,你就不要太快了我是很希望我們的人才是平衡的尤其因為中華民國的外交常常受到打壓所以經貿是我們的命脈所以我希望外交部花更多的精力跟資源培養經貿談判的人才特別是在借調到跨部合作的時候拜託外交部要當他們的後盾啦"},{"start":905.964,"end":918.983,"text":"讓他們可以好好的發揮這樣整個團隊戰力才會強好啦 我的提醒就到這邊希望我外交部不管是針對國際經貿談判的一些明確的進度或者是人才的增補培養更重要的是人才的支持請扮演積極角色 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}