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謝謝主席 是不是請我們洪部長有請洪部長林委員好部長 上次我在這裡質詢你關於開放12歲以下有子女的家庭進行申請外勞家事服務員的政策"},{"start":37.439,"end":64.56,"text":"走出去外面然後就有人來陳情了我們立法院裡面的職員工他就說他們真的很可憐因為他爸爸中風而他們的外籍移工因為知道了這個政策以後馬上就跟他說他要換轉換僱主他要去顧小孩比較他優先想要去選擇顧小孩的工作"},{"start":66.111,"end":94.25,"text":"這個是立法院的職員工我走出去人家就馬上來說那我中風的家人怎麼辦誰要顧所以我就想說難道我們的外籍移工我們所謂的外勞現在變成開放外勞來照顧弱勢照顧中風的照顧失能的要變成照顧最強勢的照顧最有錢的照顧優勢的嗎"},{"start":96.312,"end":101.965,"text":"因為大家都知道不是每一個有孩子的父母都請得起外勞"},{"start":103.936,"end":126.105,"text":"而大概會只有所得大概所得台灣人的全部的所得分成五等份第一等份的前五分之一的家庭才有能力去負擔去申請家庭帮佣的外勞而這個所得就是年所得要大概兩三百萬兩三百萬的所得的家庭才請得起"},{"start":131.946,"end":157.607,"text":"所以我從來沒有想到說有一天從照顧弱勢變成照顧最優勢最強勢的那就算了你們有沒有配套你可不可以永遠不覺得外勞提供到我就沒話說了他不但是這樣子要留住既有照顧中風和失能的外勞一個失能的家庭要留住這個外勞你知道他還要給他加多少薪水嗎"},{"start":158.812,"end":163.682,"text":"你不給他加薪 他要跑掉他就是要走那要加多少薪水啊"},{"start":169.885,"end":198.432,"text":"我可以說明嗎你說啊我們其實在去年8月的時候我們其實有做法規的修訂那是針對這個在家庭看護如果要轉換的話那在程序上應該要由這個重症家庭來優先來承接那必須符合14天內優先這個媒合給重症家庭那是要在沒有重症家庭承接的狀況之下我現在要問你圖法不足以自行"},{"start":199.312,"end":213.98,"text":"你講這個都是道理講說你有配套這個都行不通啊他就每天跟你吵架我上個禮拜不是跟你講了嗎他就每天說你要讓我出去你要合意合意讓我走但是就算轉出去也是要優先讓中正家庭承接啊會嗎 是嗎現在法規修訂是這樣子的是嗎 有罰則嗎有罰則嗎要處罰仲介還是處罰外籍義工"},{"start":228.598,"end":246.788,"text":"有罰則嗎那個在轉換的順序上面我們有我現在問你說你有什麼處分的機制否則這個形同道德勸說你會處罰仲介嗎你會處罰外籍移工嗎你要換僱主要轉出去你不知道不少你不知道還要官僚告訴你所以你對這個配套你不知道嗎"},{"start":257.391,"end":283.448,"text":"這個機制存在而且在我們優先媒合的順序上面就是優先媒合那我就不走那個我就要直接轉去有人要我的小孩如果違反的話就會把他送出去我現在問你如果違反的話就會在60天內就會把他送出去所以你是懲罰這個外籍移工喔最好是喔不要在這裡吃我肥的如果惡性代工他不按照我們的法規來進行懲罰你這個如果就太離譜了叫惡性代工"},{"start":284.509,"end":288.471,"text":"他沒有惡性代工啊 我怎麼證明你怎麼證明他惡性代工他每天跟你玩遊戲沒在理你生氣 你如果生氣 你要給他擋手你就說你不行了多少人是這樣生氣了受不了大吵大鬧以後對外籍移工就動手了他就可以合法的轉換僱主了你在講的前提都是都是不食人間煙火的都沒有務實的"},{"start":313.792,"end":326.746,"text":"事實上就是吵架以後就可以轉換了事實上就是他不想要照顧重度失能的然後他就要去照顧小孩了事實上就是你沒有足夠的外勞來支撐"},{"start":330.151,"end":353.547,"text":"所以你讓移工市場外勞要留住他的經費 薪水大幅上升是啊 就是這樣子啊我們要講的是說 一個弱勢關懷出身的部長你端出這一種搶台灣人工作的政策讓台灣 欸 照顧小孩 家庭幫傭台灣不是找不到工耶 都有人在做耶"},{"start":357.998,"end":364.683,"text":"照顧小孩 不管是居家保姆不管是什麼樣的都收拓單位然後 欸少子化 今年生幾個孩子今年我都生十萬了有沒有越來越少的狀況整體的市場在萎縮然後保姆就是這樣子在那裡托兒中心在那裡你還要開放人家來搶保姆的生意"},{"start":385.595,"end":398.614,"text":"家庭幫傭 終點費的家庭家事服務工台灣人幫傭然後這個清潔工煮飯的都有人在做欸你開放人家來搶他們工作"},{"start":399.71,"end":410.773,"text":"你說臺灣看護本級看護也有人耶所得臺灣前五分之一所得的有錢人有資料的現在也在搶耶也在搶榜樣耶其實是臺灣人比較貴你現在把外籍移工可以搶他媽想臺灣的資料多小的"},{"start":423.069,"end":436.733,"text":"你這個政策第一個搶走了台灣人的工作第二個 本來在照顧最需要的台灣人沒人要做的家庭失能的 中風的 重度殘障的這一個移工 全大家不該做啊所以台灣人失業 外籍勞工缺工 外勞缺工"},{"start":450.222,"end":455.504,"text":"重度癱瘓在那裡就沒人要走所以現在這樣叫人情何以堪啊你是弱勢關懷出身的部長然後你端出一個這樣的政策叫台灣人失業 叫外籍勞工缺工叫有錢的人 能夠入省籍 可以請到鄉的叫窮的人 乾坤的人 中風的家庭請沒人"},{"start":479.606,"end":484.889,"text":"這樣子怎麼行呢這樣子怎麼行呢然後你剛剛在這裡一開始你就報告了你說啊為了一間夜間啦臨時需求的沒人顧孩子啦所以呢"},{"start":494.966,"end":510.975,"text":"你們要開放這個外籍幫傭兼顧小孩啦然後呢 你剛才又回答立委蘇貞欣問你說因為現在有長輩當後援的家庭越來越少了需要人手 所以開放了"},{"start":512.274,"end":519.257,"text":"寶釘 我問你 你是羅東寶寶釘 還是衛福部部長啦夜間臨時需求 托兒育兒 這不是衛福部的業務嗎沒有長輩後援 所以你要開放外籍幫傭現在長輩是理所當然 長輩一定要到各個村"},{"start":535.478,"end":537.199,"text":"你這種思想裡面裝了什麼價值你應該講國家要進來幫忙政府要端出照顧公共化的政策你怎麼說長輩退位了 變少了不是這樣說的嘛"},{"start":552.697,"end":573.981,"text":"你作為一個所謂的進步人士你應該端出的是照顧公共化更多的你知道我們衛福部你有部位整合嗎你知道衛福部我們剛立了一個兒托法嗎我們這個裡面要加強各地方政府要有定點臨托還有活動臨托你知道這什麼意思嗎你不知道夜間臨時需求你剛才不是說要開放外樓"},{"start":582.95,"end":592.32,"text":"我們的定點零拖就是現在局府中心或地方政府可以設置更多的定點甚至連在車站都會設置定點零拖你有事 要怕孩子來政府辦的政府委託夾這麼多的你上來 我跟你說三點鐘 四點鐘你可以臨時拖的"},{"start":605.527,"end":613.154,"text":"這就是公共政策啊這就是我們額托法現在正在審查的啊這就是現在地方政府也有人在做的定點零托一天這麼多你知不知道兩百塊如果不是三百塊有需要嗎 有啊"},{"start":625.376,"end":635.3,"text":"所以你要端出這種政策在衛福部的業務啊你勞動部去搶了衛福部你講的那些理由都好像是衛福部部長所以我不知道你你這樣子做你端出了這個東西你怎麼還有辦法在這裡講的義正言辭呢義正辭言呢不中"},{"start":655.612,"end":683.566,"text":"然後你說開放外籍幫庸的事業衝擊評估性別影響評估兒童最佳利益評估你們在做了你什麼時候可以做好什麼時候可以寫完你評估都還沒出來你就開放了4月13就要上路了評估都沒做好沒寫完你就出來了當然外面也有人講了啦你找台大某某人寫啦權威啦專家啦大家都很想看他評估出什麼樣子啦"},{"start":685.697,"end":688.679,"text":"他會照實評估嗎 大家也都拭目以待啦對不對你大概是什麼時候要公布 你們會做完相關的報告我們會在下一次的性評會的時候提出報告性評會 那失業衝擊評估呢"},{"start":705.137,"end":720.026,"text":"包括就業的影響包括這個性別的部分都會在下一次性評會的時候提出那要從最佳利益評估呢?下一次性評會議是什麼時候?行政院的?這段行政院安排大概什麼時候?所以你不知道啊?沒有擺就沒辦法?這個是定期的會議啊"},{"start":728.956,"end":756.289,"text":"你這個都沒有告訴我們你什麼時候要出來如果是定期你可以回答我什麼時候會出來啊但是確切的安排的時間是行政院那邊對啊你定期的下一次理論上應該是幾月包委員我們那個性評會好像3月30號才剛剛開完嘛所以是4月30還是5月30我們那個會看那個院那邊看院那邊的安排他說定期會開啊定期是多久一次"},{"start":757.034,"end":777.904,"text":"姓平輝我記得差不多四個月四個月喔所以你如果三個月三十再來叫到你四個月喔 你這法案政策就做下去了 再做到評估要做什麼都已經執行了 政策都執行了那我們要這個評估 不過評估出來說有衝擊 你都開放了怎麼辦委員 我想是 我知道委員對這個部門非常關心 我想跟委員"},{"start":784.309,"end":797.198,"text":"其實這整個真的是我們的策略社會投資嘛我們知道現在家庭現在是在變遷當中我要委員報告就是說我們不是說我們現在要做這一項兩項都不做 我要委員報告我沒有在問你啦 我現在在問外籍移工政策 外籍勞工政策啦你不可能退部長回答 你先下去啦"},{"start":810.352,"end":823.986,"text":"我們是要檢視開放外籍幫傭的政策對台灣的勞工和托育的負面衝擊是什麼那台灣我要講不是我自己說的啦台灣障礙者權益促進會他們有一個新聞稿他們就是這樣講"},{"start":828.45,"end":840.757,"text":"政府雖然以協助育兒 釋放女性勞動力為名但是你缺乏完整的配套 沒有完整的影響評估下恐怕會惡化性別和階級的不平等擴大資源分配的不均讓照顧責任進一步私有化 淪為有錢人才能享有的特權"},{"start":850.123,"end":864.215,"text":"因為你所謂的前五分之一的家庭有能力負擔幫傭者這是典型的 這個政策是階級政策對障礙者家庭而言 他們很憂心他們憂心放寬幫傭資格 引發搶工效應"},{"start":869.335,"end":888.103,"text":"身心障礙者知道啊 搶工啊導致原本就吃緊的外籍看護人力被引流到工作條件較輕鬆的高所得家庭進一步稀釋掉弱勢障礙者的照顧資源照顧的困境會加劇我現在講 有錢人 請幫忙我請台灣人可能五萬我請這個外籍移工三萬我給他們中金四萬"},{"start":895.486,"end":899.648,"text":"有一個普通人他們到外籍看護就好了可以給到四萬五萬的啊不可能嘛 不可能嘛所以會不會搶工 當然會除非源源不絕外籍移工的勞動力市場是供給大於需求才不會發生問題啦"},{"start":922.451,"end":929.394,"text":"現在外籍勞動力市場是進入賣方市場供給遠遠小於需求是我現在外籍移工要選雇主 不是雇主選移工遠遠小於需求 價格上升現在是移工選雇主所以會不會產生問題 當然會產生問題現在我請教你說"},{"start":949.066,"end":966.032,"text":"這個政策到底是不是階級政策部長你說說看這政策是不是階級政策跟文說沒有第一個其實對於整體的相關育兒支持相關的政策這其實是一個整體的政策組合不要講育兒啦連家庭幫傭都一樣他搶走台灣人幫傭的工作嘛"},{"start":970.376,"end":996.085,"text":"所以我們針對不同的需求我們會規劃不同的政策我現在問你這是不是階級政策只服務所得前五分之一的是不是我們針對不同的需求會設計不同的政策那其他所得五分之四的人育兒的家庭難道他們就沒有需求了嗎也會設計其他的政策去協助他那請問你他要夜間臨時這個需求他回家很累家務不想做了那你要怎麼幫他"},{"start":998.516,"end":1006.521,"text":"你幫他什麼其他五分之四的喔他回去也很累了他回去也不想工作了他也不想做家事了那請問你端出什麼政策幫他我們當然要用其他的政策沒有啦你沒有辦法幫他嘛不是嗎你應該這樣我現在跟你講說你沒有辦法幫他"},{"start":1025.083,"end":1029.264,"text":"外傭可以幫你接小孩 但他不能讓你準時下班外傭可以幫你煮飯 但他不能幫你加薪外傭可以幫你陪孩子 但他不可能替代父母在教育上的角色更現實一點 連外傭本身也需要被管理 被安排 被負責你會發現最後可能是女人"},{"start":1048.63,"end":1071.512,"text":"女人不只是說多一個幫手 而還多了一份工作還要一份人力資源調配部門的兼職事實上這個政策是假設家庭可以無痛升級成小型雇主單位政府將照顧的責任和問題丟給家庭然後家庭再把壓力轉嫁給外勞"},{"start":1073.093,"end":1088.589,"text":"再將照護工作的性別責任轉嫁給更弱勢的勞工把照護責任從本國女性轉嫁到外籍廉價的女性勞動力這個是一個很典型的責任向下流動的鏈條所以"},{"start":1091.604,"end":1110.908,"text":"中產家庭勉強強稱低薪家庭用不起高收入的家庭本來就不缺他只是花的錢成本高或低看起來好像是大家都受益事實上是擴大階級這個差距啊為什麼要講這個呢我現在在跟你討論你知道"},{"start":1114.861,"end":1126.25,"text":"在很多人其實都走過這一段路 以新加坡為例新加坡來 我找一個新加坡的這個數據以新加坡為例 其實他們開放嘛 而且他們沒有最低工資嘛 對嘛"},{"start":1134.912,"end":1156.497,"text":"新加坡在2010年有一個Teresa還有一個Leon我不曉得這個那個啦他發表了一篇Made for work-life balancethink again中文譯文叫做用女傭換取工作與生活平衡嗎可以嗎請三思他點出了新加坡社會對外籍家庭幫傭的依賴但是"},{"start":1159.177,"end":1179.234,"text":"為社會帶來沉重的代價不但強化了鞏固了照顧應該有女性而不是男性負責還導致企業僱主忽略職場育兒友善的必要性然後可以不在乎員工工作生活平衡的需求所以在這種狀況裡面他們就發現其實並不是只有利沒有弊"},{"start":1184.699,"end":1205.468,"text":"然後員工想要請假你家裡不是有幫傭了嗎你怎麼還請假 我想要回去顧小孩 不行啊你家裡有幫傭啦所以這個政策並不是說有錢人都只有得到好處而已他可能讓他的僱主更有理由和更有藉口那我現在在講說不是一般人請得起的現在連有三間房的"},{"start":1214.697,"end":1226.301,"text":"這個住宅都很少事實上也買不起這個你知道在台北市喔每月生活所必須喔撫養一個人是48910元"},{"start":1229.829,"end":1256.687,"text":"是 撫養一個人是每月要四萬八千九百一十元事實上再不要講房貸 車貸還有這個其他的費用啦事實上的確就是錢所得全台灣人的所得錢等據五個等據裡面的第一等據的人有辦法負擔得起其他都沒有辦法連空間 生活空間都沒有辦法負擔得起歐洲人口學刊喔 這個"},{"start":1258.223,"end":1272.502,"text":"European Journal of Population早在2013年就有一篇由人口學家叫Angela還有經濟學家Oliver他撰寫的論文他明白指出長工時會減少生育率"},{"start":1273.283,"end":1291.796,"text":"而且由於女性就業以後蠟燭兩頭燒的壓力遠遠高於男性所以長工時對女性的生育率殺傷力尤其大他們計算出的結果是一個國家的女性平均年總工時增加100個小時生育率將會減少0.08%"},{"start":1296.066,"end":1324.364,"text":"人口經濟學的雜誌2023年也提到雇用外籍幫傭有望減輕家長養育子女的負擔但有些學者也表示在考慮家務外包對生育決策的影響時後面還有很多重的機制在運作文章提到聘僱家庭幫傭家長實際上可以擁有更多時間可能會育兒"},{"start":1325.465,"end":1343.917,"text":"也有可能真的會提高他們的意願但是第一種第一種原本就全職沒有上班全職從事家務的女性有了家庭幫傭以後會待在家的成本會變高因為開支變多了他們就會選擇進入勞動市場"},{"start":1347.432,"end":1369.671,"text":"但廣義而言女性可能會選擇就業增加勞動時間然後這樣子你以為是好了增加勞動力不因為這樣子他們對生育的意願就受到負面的影響這是第一種你以為有人來幫我了我要去工作了但是工作長工時就不想生了第二種"},{"start":1373.257,"end":1396.39,"text":"聘僱家庭的幫傭對本來就有工作剛才是本來沒有工作的現在是本來就在工作就業中的女性而言也會產生負面影響例如為了獲得晉升或追求更高職位而延長工作時間或者是老闆知道你有家庭幫傭事情都找你做你也回不了家"},{"start":1397.463,"end":1418.283,"text":"所以這個是人口經濟學雜誌在2023年提到你以為家庭幫庸制度完美無缺提升女性勞動力提升生育率事實上不是那台灣呢台灣的總工時名列前茅啊112年南韓的總工時一年多少"},{"start":1421.949,"end":1430.435,"text":"1874日本的總工時是多少1637北歐的瑞典1416西歐的荷蘭1351112年的台灣總工時2019韓國1874日本1637"},{"start":1443.055,"end":1471.769,"text":"所以如果人口學家那個Angela跟那個經濟學家Oliver的量化研究論文這個推論台灣總生育率極低完全就是預料之中因為工時太工時太長對生育力生育的意願太低那外籍邦庸最泛濫的國家是哪一個國家新加坡啊新加坡啊"},{"start":1473.27,"end":1482.642,"text":"剛剛不是講了嗎 新加坡的外籍邦庸政策全開放他新加坡一年總工時多少 112年總工時多少2267亞洲第一高不是嗎"},{"start":1494.019,"end":1521.07,"text":"所以呢就算在職的女性需要聘請幫手來協助家務她的月薪要多少肯定一定要比一定要比這個聘僱外傭的薪水更高那如果還沒工作的女性未來她從事的工作薪資要多少錢才能夠負擔起去引進這個外傭呢這個薪資年薪沒有數百萬真的是沒那麼容易啦"},{"start":1522.745,"end":1531.689,"text":"女性為什麼要主動放棄就業選擇在家育兒部長為什麼為什麼女性要準備生小孩在家育兒的時候勞動力就下滑為什麼為什麼是女性保定為什麼你也是要回答因為女性可能她薪資是比較低的對啊薪資比較低啊那你做了什麼你勞動部做了什麼你要提高女性的勞參率"},{"start":1553.311,"end":1572.536,"text":"那你做了什麼 你端出了什麼讓女性繼續留在職場 不要 不要而不是說為了顧小孩 然後就不上班因為顧小孩的成本很高我上班的薪水這麼一點點那不如我自己顧 不是嗎"},{"start":1574.949,"end":1599.38,"text":"所以你要解決這個勞參率你應該端出你的政策而不是只有外籍幫傭而且為什麼會這樣放棄就業都不是所得前五分之一那一種女性啦那一種家庭啦都是你沒看到的所得全台灣所得五分之一以外的五分之四的家庭的女性"},{"start":1600.919,"end":1612.223,"text":"而勞動力最多這一群也是最重要的你服務那五分之一的所得前五分之一的那所得後面五分之四的人怎麼辦呢怎麼辦呢你這個東西就是看得出來女性仍然是家務跟育兒實質的承擔者號稱要留住女性 女性勞工你都沒有解決這個問題"},{"start":1630.739,"end":1650.444,"text":"薪資低於聘僱外籍幫傭的成本或外籍或者是保姆的成本所以即便有意願也沒有辦法他要請外傭也沒辦法就算有能力好他有能力的女性好了他請一個外籍幫傭可能你變相的要投入工作的時間要更長這也是另一種剝削啊對不對所以這個政策"},{"start":1661.496,"end":1686.148,"text":"我再說一遍 外籍包容這個政策真的會造成台灣人失業外籍勞工短缺然後大家搶移工 只有錢留得住移工那沒有錢的 中風的 失能的 癱瘓的這一些真正需要 最需要長照的照顧的體系的這一些家庭怎麼辦"},{"start":1687.469,"end":1702.554,"text":"而顧小孩的 家庭幫傭的那些有錢人他本來就買得起結果你讓他有便宜的外勞他解雇他自己家庭裡面的本勞這樣這樣子好嗎部長 請合一看"},{"start":1712.334,"end":1722.676,"text":"跟委員說其實這段時間的確其實有很多其實是中產的雙性家庭來表達他們的確很有需要這個政策"},{"start":1723.752,"end":1743.897,"text":"你現在講的中產的雙薪的家庭的確很需要這個政策他們的實質薪水是多少他們的代表性是什麼因為每次勞動部推了一個什麼政策都會說我們去做了有意願你們沒有做好失業衝擊評估你們先做好需求評估這就是還沒設建未設建先畫把都已經畫好了啊早就知道啦"},{"start":1754.246,"end":1781.299,"text":"你講這些話 敢對你過去的自己會高大的你說中產的 中產的也有能力 你不是講有錢人你意思是說 有錢人請得起 中產的家庭也請得起一個外傭委員的確是有中產的中心家庭教導 阿翔啊那我問你 你定義的中產家庭是什麼啦你所定義的中產薪水的家庭是多少叫中產 你可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":1783.421,"end":1790.845,"text":"他跟我表達他們可能雙親是個人還是多數那你所謂的中產階級雙親是多少錢可能爸爸媽媽加起來可能有十多萬出頭的薪資他們就希望能夠請"},{"start":1801.404,"end":1815.552,"text":"10多萬的薪水他本來是不是就有需求他本來那他本來他有沒有請人在顧他如果要他的確反應因為夜間所以你這個政策是顧孩子為主家庭幫傭為輔不是"},{"start":1821.016,"end":1838.111,"text":"那我現在告訴你新加坡那個例子新加坡人家走過了那一段路新加坡的例子你又是怎麼講你現在都可以繼續講繼續拗啊但是新加坡就告訴你活先生的例子就在那裡了"},{"start":1842.088,"end":1856.047,"text":"讓婦女出去外面工時越來越長然後家庭工作沒有得到平衡然後呢 我剛剛已經 我也是跟你講了很多遍啊外傭可以幫你接小孩 但他不能讓你準時下班"},{"start":1857.148,"end":1876.449,"text":"可以兼你的小孩但你不能準時下班外傭可以幫你煮飯但他不會幫你加薪外傭可以幫你陪孩子但他沒有辦法成為他的父母你孩子的父母在教育上該扮演的角色父母該有的陪伴的角色"},{"start":1881.075,"end":1903.355,"text":"我的意思是說 五分之四的人家庭需求 你怎麼辦 你怎麼沒有端出來你只服 這是不是一個階級政策你說不是啊 因為中產人員 有人跟你反應啊 有人跟你反應就可以了那我在這裡也跟你大聲疾呼陳情 為那些癱瘓的 失能的 中風的家庭在這裡跟你請命"},{"start":1904.389,"end":1932.723,"text":"你讓他們的外勞不要跟他吵架說要轉換雇主要去雇有錢人的小孩我也在這裡幫中風的、癱瘓的、失能的家庭跟你請命請你不要說不加薪的話他就要跑了我會替他們跟你請命不要為了照顧每天蓋腰巴擦我也替他們請命可以不要讓他們的家屬心驚膽戰說我中風的伯母不知道什麼人要照顧"},{"start":1935.192,"end":1952.8,"text":"那你怎麼辦 你端出一個什麼政策給我們有人跟你請命說 我很辛苦 我需要有人幫我照顧孩子 照顧家務那這一群 這一群 失能的 癱瘓的 家庭的辛苦 什麼人要幫他解決我也在這裡請命啊"},{"start":1958.584,"end":1968.833,"text":"真的 真的 不然你去想辦法讓外籍移工的供給源源不絕 供不應求供大於求現在是供不應求 你讓他供大於求啊現在不是台灣人在唱歌 日本 韓國 世界都在唱外籍勞工"},{"start":1985.865,"end":1992.598,"text":"大家全世界都在搶工欸不要以為外籍移工開放這麼簡單這不是啊謝謝林淑芬委員的諮詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:23:14.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:23:15.008000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:23:15.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:23:16.389000+08:00","text":"是不是請洪部長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-01T12:23:16.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:23:16.810000+08:00","text":"請洪部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:23:16.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:23:16.850000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:23:16.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:24:07.540000+08:00","text":"部長，上次我在這裡質詢你，關於開放12歲以下子女的家庭逕行申請外籍家事服務員的政策，走出去外面就有人陳情，是立法院的職員工，他說他們真的很可憐，因為他爸爸中風，他們的外籍移工知道這個政策以後，馬上就跟他說要轉換雇主，他要去顧小孩，他優先想要選擇顧小孩的工作。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:24:09.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:24:18.137000+08:00","text":"這是立法院職員工的陳情，我一走出去，人家就馬上來說了，那我中風的家人怎麼辦？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:24:18.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:24:19.578000+08:00","text":"誰要顧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:24:19.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:24:37.250000+08:00","text":"所以我就在想，難道我們的外籍移工、我們所謂的外勞，原本是開放外勞照顧弱勢、照顧中風的、照顧失能的，之後會變成照顧最強勢的、照顧最有錢的、照顧優勢的嗎？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:24:39.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:24:44.965000+08:00","text":"因為大家都知道，不是每一個有孩子的父母都請的起外勞。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:24:51.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:25:22.092000+08:00","text":"全部臺灣人的所得分成五等份，第一等份，前五分之一的家庭才有能力負擔申請家庭幫傭的外勞，就是你的年所得大概要兩、三百萬元，有兩、三百萬元所得的家庭才請的起，我從來沒有想到，有一天外勞會從照顧弱勢變成照顧最優勢、最強勢的。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:25:23.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:25:25.295000+08:00","text":"那就算了，你們有沒有配套？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:25:25.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:25:27.216000+08:00","text":"是否有源源不絕的外勞可以提供？","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:25:27.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:25:28.998000+08:00","text":"這樣我就沒話說了。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:25:29.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:25:40.607000+08:00","text":"他們要留住照顧中風和失能家人的外勞，一個失能的家庭要留住這個外勞，你知道要給他加多少薪水嗎？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:25:41.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:25:44.037000+08:00","text":"因為你不給他加薪，他就要跑掉！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:25:45.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:25:46.021000+08:00","text":"他就是要走！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:25:46.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:25:46.662000+08:00","text":"那要加多少薪水啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:25:52.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:25:54.585000+08:00","text":"委員，我可以說明嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:25:54.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:25:54.926000+08:00","text":"你說啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:25:56.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:26:19.191000+08:00","text":"委員，其實我們在去年8月的時候有做法規的修訂，是針對家庭看護如果要轉換的話，在程序上應該要由重症家庭優先來承接，必須符合14天內優先媒合給重症家庭，在沒有重症家庭承接的狀況之下……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:26:19.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:26:26.614000+08:00","text":"我現在問你喔，徒法不足以自行啦，你講這個都是道理，你講說有配套，但這個都行不通啊！","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:26:27.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:26:33.898000+08:00","text":"他就每天跟你吵架，我上個禮拜不是跟你講了嗎，他就每天說：你要讓我出去，你要合意、合意讓我走！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:26:34.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:26:35.859000+08:00","text":"但是就算轉出去也是要優先讓重症家庭承接啊。會嗎？是嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:26:35.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:26:36.660000+08:00","text":"是，現在法規修訂是這樣子的。是嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:26:36.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:26:36.680000+08:00","text":"有罰則嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:26:36.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:26:36.760000+08:00","text":"有罰則嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:26:36.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:26:36.960000+08:00","text":"要處罰仲介還是處罰外籍移工？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:26:51.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:26:53.319000+08:00","text":"有罰則嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:26:54.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:26:57.181000+08:00","text":"委員，在轉換的順序上面，我們有……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:26:57.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:02.764000+08:00","text":"我現在問你有什麼處分的機制，否則這個形同道德勸說，你會處罰仲介嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:02.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:04.445000+08:00","text":"你會處罰外籍移工嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:04.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:05.886000+08:00","text":"如果要換雇主，要轉出去……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"黃署長齡玉","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:05.886000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:06.886000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:06.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:07.007000+08:00","text":"你不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:08.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:09.768000+08:00","text":"部長，你不知道，還要官僚告訴你，所以你對這個配套不知道嘛！","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:20.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:23.032000+08:00","text":"委員，這個機制存在，而且在我們優先媒合的順序上面就是提供……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:23.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:28.996000+08:00","text":"優先媒合，我就不走那個，我就要直接轉去，有人要我去顧小孩……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:29.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:30.297000+08:00","text":"如果違反的話，就會把他送出去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:30.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:30.918000+08:00","text":"我現在問你……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:31.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:34.540000+08:00","text":"如果違反的話，就會在60天內把他送出去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:34.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:39.524000+08:00","text":"所以你是懲罰這個外籍移工，最好是喔，不要在這裡欺騙本席喔！","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:40.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:43.386000+08:00","text":"如果惡性怠工，他不按照我們的法規來執行的話……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:43.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:48.109000+08:00","text":"你這個如果就太離譜了，叫惡性怠工，他沒有惡性怠工啊，我怎麼證明？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:48.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:48.670000+08:00","text":"你怎麼證明他惡性怠工？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:48.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:27:50.791000+08:00","text":"他每天跟你吵架，不然就惹你生氣，你如果生氣動手就絕對完蛋了，多少人是這樣，生氣了、受不了、大吵大罵以後，就對外籍移工動手了，然後他就可以合法的轉換雇主了。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:27:50.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:28:26.642000+08:00","text":"你在講的前提都是不食人間煙火的、都沒有務實的，事實上就是吵架以後就可以轉換了，事實上就是他不想要照顧重度失能者，然後他就要去照顧小孩了。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:28:27.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:28:41.156000+08:00","text":"事實上就是你沒有足夠的外勞來支撐，所以你讓移工市場要留住外勞的經費、薪水大幅上升，是啊，就是這樣子啊！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:28:42.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:29:05.601000+08:00","text":"我們要講的是說，一個弱勢關懷出身的部長，你端出這一種搶臺灣人工作的政策，在臺灣照顧小孩、家庭幫傭，臺灣不是找不到工耶，都有人在做喔，照顧小孩的不管是居家保母或是什麼樣的收托單位，然後少子化，去年生幾個小孩，今年有辦法生10萬個嗎？","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:29:05.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:30:34.283000+08:00","text":"越來越少的狀況，整體的市場在萎縮，保母就在那裡，托兒中心也在那裡，你還要開放人家來搶保母的生意；家庭幫傭、鐘點費的家事服務工、臺灣人幫傭、清潔工、煮飯的，都有人在做喔，你開放人家來搶他們工作；臺灣的本籍看護也有人耶，臺灣前五分之一所得的有錢人，有本事的現在也有在請幫傭耶，只是臺灣人比較貴，現在你如果開放可以請外籍移工，他馬上把臺灣籍的幫傭辭掉，換比較便宜的，你這個政策第一個搶走了臺灣人的工作，第二個本來在照顧臺灣沒人要做的失能者、中風者、重度殘障者的移工，大家都不做了，所以臺灣人失業，外籍勞工缺工，重度癱瘓在那裡的沒人要照顧了，所以現在這樣叫人情何以堪啊！","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:30:34.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:31:04.387000+08:00","text":"你是弱勢關懷出身的部長，然後你端出一個這樣的政策，讓臺灣人失業、讓外籍勞工缺工、讓有錢的人可以比較省錢的去請到便宜勞工，卻讓貧窮者、艱困者、有中風者的家庭請不到人，這樣子怎麼行呢？","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:31:04.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:31:05.608000+08:00","text":"這樣子怎麼行呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:31:06.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:31:33.955000+08:00","text":"你剛剛在這裡一開始就報告了，你說為了因應夜間臨時照顧小孩的需求，所以你們要開放外籍幫傭兼顧小孩；然後你剛才又回答立委，蘇清泉問你時，你說現在有長輩當後援的家庭越來越少了，需要人手，所以開放了。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:31:35.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:31:37.555000+08:00","text":"部長，我問你，你是勞動部部長還是衛福部部長？","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:31:37.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:31:39.856000+08:00","text":"夜間臨時需求托兒、育兒，這不是衛福部的業務嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:31:39.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:31:42.177000+08:00","text":"沒有長輩後援，所以你要開放外籍幫傭，現在是怎樣，長輩是理所當然喔，為什麼當長輩的就一定要幫忙顧孫子？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:31:58.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:31:59.459000+08:00","text":"你這種思想裡面裝了什麼價值？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:31:59.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:32:00.179000+08:00","text":"你應該講國家要進來幫忙，政府端出照顧公共化的政策，你怎麼會說長輩退位了、變少了，不是這樣講的嘛！","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:32:15.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:32:26.159000+08:00","text":"你作為一個所謂的進步人士，你應該端出的是照顧公共化更多的，你知道我們衛福部……你有部會整合嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:32:26.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:32:29.299000+08:00","text":"你知道衛福部剛制定了一個兒托法嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:32:29.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:32:36.080000+08:00","text":"我們在這裡面要加強各地方政府要有定點臨托，還有活動臨托，你知道這什麼意思嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:32:36.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:32:36.421000+08:00","text":"你不知道喔？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:32:36.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:33:15.073000+08:00","text":"夜間臨時需求，你剛才不是說因為這樣所以要開放外勞，我們的定點臨托就是現在的居服中心，或地方政府可以設置更多的定點，甚至連在車站都會設置定點臨托，你有事情要把孩子放在政府辦的、政府委託業者做的臨托點就送來，我幫你照顧3小時、4小時，你可以臨時托兒，這就是公共政策、這就是我們現在正在審查的兒托法、這就是現在地方政府也有人在做的定點臨托，一小時多少錢你知道嗎？","quality":0.728},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:33:15.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:33:15.893000+08:00","text":"200元，如果晚上是300元，有便宜嗎？","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:33:15.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:33:37.980000+08:00","text":"有啊，所以你要端出這種政策，但這是衛福部的業務，你勞動部去搶了衛福部，你講的那些理由都好像是衛福部部長，所以我不知道你端出了這個東西，怎麼還有辦法在這裡講得義正辭嚴呢？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:33:58.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:34:08.477000+08:00","text":"部長，然後你說對於開放外籍幫傭的失業衝擊評估、性別影響評估、兒童最佳利益評估你們在做了，請問你什麼時候可以做好？","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:34:09.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:34:09.898000+08:00","text":"什麼時候可以寫完？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:34:10.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:34:29.177000+08:00","text":"你的評估都還沒出來就開放了，4月13就要上路了，評估都沒做好、沒寫完就出來了，當然外面也有人講了啦，你找臺大某某人寫，權威啦、專家啦，大家都很想看他評估出什麼樣子，他會不會照實評估大家也都拭目以待啦，對不對？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:34:29.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:34:30.218000+08:00","text":"你大概是什麼時候要公布你們做完的評估報告？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:34:30.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:34:31.279000+08:00","text":"相關的報告，我們會在下一次性平會的時候提出報告。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:34:31.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:34:31.459000+08:00","text":"性平會？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:34:31.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:34:31.659000+08:00","text":"那失業衝擊評估呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:34:48.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:34:55.041000+08:00","text":"包括就業的影響，包括性別的部分，都會在下一次性平會的時候提出。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:34:55.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:34:56.762000+08:00","text":"兒童最佳利益評估呢？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:34:57.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:00.304000+08:00","text":"下一次行政院的性平會議是什麼時候？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:00.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:02.045000+08:00","text":"這要看行政院的安排。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:02.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:02.446000+08:00","text":"大概什麼時候？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:02.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:02.846000+08:00","text":"喔，所以你們不知道，如果沒有排不就沒辦法。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:02.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:03.006000+08:00","text":"這個行政院會安排，因為這是定期會議。","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:11.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:18.179000+08:00","text":"你這個都沒有告訴我們什麼時候要出來，如果是定期，你可以回答我什麼時候會出來啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:18.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:20.300000+08:00","text":"但是確切的時間是行政院在安排。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:20.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:23.481000+08:00","text":"對啊，如果是定期的，下一次理論上應該是幾月？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:25.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:29.404000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們的性平會好像3月30號才剛剛開完嘛……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:29.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:30.925000+08:00","text":"所以是4月30號還是5月30號？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:34.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:36.728000+08:00","text":"這個要看院那邊的安排。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:36.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:39.269000+08:00","text":"他說定期會開啊，定期是多久一次？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:40.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:41.975000+08:00","text":"性平會我記得差不多是四個月一次。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:42.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:42.795000+08:00","text":"四個月？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:43.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:45.997000+08:00","text":"所以如果3月30號開過了，照道理來講，再來就是……","quality":0.389},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:46.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:47.057000+08:00","text":"四個月喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:47.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:51.920000+08:00","text":"你們這個政策就已經做下去了，還要做評估幹什麼？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:51.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:35:58.463000+08:00","text":"都已經執行了，政策都執行了，我們做這個評估，如果評估出來說有衝擊，你都已經開放了，要怎麼辦？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2026-04-01T12:35:58.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:36:17.356000+08:00","text":"委員，我知道委員對這個部分非常關心，說實在的，這整個真的是……我們的策略是社會投資嘛，我們知道現在的家庭在變遷當中，我要跟委員報告的是，我們不是說現在因為要做這一項，別的就都不做了，我們現在……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:36:17.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:36:20.178000+08:00","text":"我沒有在問你啦，我現在在問外籍移工政策、外籍勞工政策啦，你不可能替部長回答，你先下去啦！好。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:36:33.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:36:42.982000+08:00","text":"我們是要檢視開放外籍幫傭的政策對臺灣的勞工和托育的負面衝擊是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:36:43.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:37:03.757000+08:00","text":"我要講這不是我自己說的，台灣障礙者權益促進會的新聞稿提到：政府雖然以協助育兒、釋放女性勞動力為名，但是在缺乏完整配套及完整影響評估下，恐將惡化性別與階級不平等，擴大資源分配不均，讓照顧責任進一步私有化，淪為有錢人才能享有的特權。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:37:13.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:37:49.622000+08:00","text":"因為你所謂前五分之一的家庭有能力負擔幫傭者，這是典型的階級政策，對於障礙者家庭而言，他們很憂心放寬幫傭資格將引發搶工效應，身心障礙者知道這會搶工，導致原本就吃緊的外籍看護人力被引流到工作條件較輕鬆的高所得家庭，進一步稀釋掉弱勢障礙者的照顧資源，照顧的困境會加劇。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:37:49.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:37:59.687000+08:00","text":"我現在講，有錢人請幫傭，請臺灣人可能要5萬、請外籍移工3萬，再加上獎金共4萬，他就高興得不得了，哪一個普通人的家庭請外籍看護可以給到4萬、5萬的啊？","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:37:59.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:38:00.307000+08:00","text":"不可能嘛、不可能嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:38:00.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:38:00.607000+08:00","text":"所以會不會搶工？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:38:01.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:38:01.127000+08:00","text":"當然會！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:38:01.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:38:32.254000+08:00","text":"除非源源不絕，外籍移工的勞動力市場是供給大於需求才不會發生問題啦，現在外籍勞動力市場是進入賣方市場，供給遠遠小於需求，現在是外籍移工要選雇主，不是雇主選移工，供給遠遠小於需求，價格上升，現在是移工選雇主，所以會不會產生問題？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:38:32.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:38:32.294000+08:00","text":"當然會產生問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:38:32.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:38:53.567000+08:00","text":"現在我要請教你，這個政策到底是不是階級政策？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:38:53.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:38:56.568000+08:00","text":"部長，你說說看，這個政策是不是階級政策？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:38:58.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:05.791000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個，對於整體育兒支持的相關政策來說，這其實是一個整體的政策組合……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:06.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:07.451000+08:00","text":"不要講育兒啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:07.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:09.012000+08:00","text":"連家庭幫傭都一樣，他搶走臺灣人幫傭的工作嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:13.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:16.477000+08:00","text":"所以委員，針對不同的需求我們會規劃不同的政策。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:16.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:18.398000+08:00","text":"我現在問你，這是不是階級政策？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:18.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:21.499000+08:00","text":"只服務所得前五分之一的家庭，是不是？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:21.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:23.560000+08:00","text":"我們針對不同的需求會設計不同的政策。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:24.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:29.962000+08:00","text":"那其他所得五分之四的育兒家庭難道就沒有需求了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:29.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:31.783000+08:00","text":"也會設計其他的政策去協助他們。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:31.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:38.485000+08:00","text":"那請問你，如果他有夜間臨時的需求，例如他回家很累，家務不想做了，你要怎麼幫他？","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:38.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:39.065000+08:00","text":"你要怎麼幫他？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:41.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:43.217000+08:00","text":"你幫他什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:43.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:48.540000+08:00","text":"其他五分之四的家庭，他回去也很累了，他回去也不想工作了、也不想做家事了，請問你端出什麼政策幫他？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:48.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:48.800000+08:00","text":"委員，我們當然要用其他的政策，可是我的意思是說……","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:48.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:48.920000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:48.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:39:49.181000+08:00","text":"你沒有辦法幫他嘛，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:39:49.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:40:40.639000+08:00","text":"你應該這樣……我現在跟你講，你沒有辦法幫他，外傭可以幫你接小孩，但他不能讓你準時下班；外傭可以幫你煮飯，但他不能幫你加薪；外傭可以幫你陪孩子，但他不可能替代父母在教育上的角色，更現實的是連外傭本身也需要被管理、被安排、被負責，你會發現最後可能是女人，女人不只是多一個幫手，還多了一份工作，一份人力資源調配部門的兼職。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:40:40.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:41:11.529000+08:00","text":"事實上，這個政策是假設家庭可以無痛升級成小型雇主單位，政府將照顧的責任和問題丟給家庭，然後家庭再把壓力轉嫁給外勞，再將照護工作的性別責任轉嫁給更弱勢的勞工，把照護責任從本國女性轉嫁到外籍廉價的女性勞動力，這個是一個很典型的責任向下流動的鏈條。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:41:11.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:41:30.888000+08:00","text":"所以中產家庭勉強強撐，低薪家庭用不起，高收入家庭本來就不缺，只是花錢的成本高或低，看起來好像是大家都受益，事實上是擴大階級差距啦。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:41:32.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:41:32.848000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要講這個呢？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:41:33.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:42:12.915000+08:00","text":"我現在跟你討論，你知道很多人其實都走過這一段路，以新加坡為例，他們開放且沒有最低工資，新加坡的Theresa與Leong兩位學者於2010年曾發表一篇「Maid for work-life balance? Think again」，中譯是「用女傭換取工作與生活平衡？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:42:14.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:42:24.880000+08:00","text":"請三思」，文中點出新加坡社會對外籍家庭幫傭的依賴，為社會帶來沈重的代價。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:42:24.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:42:40.353000+08:00","text":"不僅鞏固、強化了「照顧應由女性，而非男性負責」的觀念，更導致企業雇主忽略職場育兒友善的必要性，可以不在乎員工工作、生活平衡的需求。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:42:41.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:42:42.214000+08:00","text":"所以在這種狀況下，他們就發現這樣其實並不是只有利沒有弊耶。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:42:48.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:42:52.381000+08:00","text":"員工想要請假，會被質疑家裡不是有幫傭了嗎，怎麼還要請假？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:42:53.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:42:58.263000+08:00","text":"想要回去顧小孩，不行，你家裡有幫傭了！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:42:59.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:43:05.526000+08:00","text":"所以這個政策並不是說有錢人都只有得到好處而已，也可能讓他的雇主更有理由和更有藉口。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:43:07.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:43:57.406000+08:00","text":"我現在講說這不是一般人請得起的，現在連有三間房的住宅都很少，事實上也買不起，在臺北市的每月「生活所必需」，扶養一個人是4萬8,910元，更不要講房貸、車貸以及其他的費用啦，事實上的確就是全臺灣人所得5等距裡面的第一等距的人有辦法負擔得起，其他都沒有辦法，連生活空間都沒有辦法負擔得起。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:43:58.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:44:26.390000+08:00","text":"歐洲人口學刊（European Journal of Population）早在2013年就有一篇由人口學家Angela和經濟學家Olivier撰寫的論文，明白指出長工時會減少生育率，而且由於女性就業以後，蠟燭兩頭燒的壓力遠遠高於男性，所以長工時對女性生育率的殺傷力尤其大。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:44:27.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:44:34.796000+08:00","text":"他們計算出的結果是，一國女性平均年總工時增加100小時，總生育率將會減少0.08%。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:44:39.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:44:59.239000+08:00","text":"人口經濟學雜誌於2023年也提到，僱用外籍幫傭有望減輕家長養育子女的負擔，但有些學者也表示，在考慮家務外包對生育決策的影響時，後面還有很多重的機制在運作。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:44:59.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:45:38.679000+08:00","text":"文章提到，聘僱家庭幫傭，家長實際上可以擁有更多時間育兒，也有可能真的會提高他們的意願，但是第一種，原本就全職沒有上班、全職從事家務的女性，有了家庭幫傭以後，待在家的成本會變高，因為開支變多了，他們就會選擇進入勞動市場，但廣義而言，女性可能會選擇就業增加勞動時間，這樣子你以為是好的，能增加勞動力，不！","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:45:39.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:45:52.511000+08:00","text":"因為這樣子，他們對生育的意願就受到負面的影響，這是第一種，你以為有人來幫傭了，我要去工作了，但是長工時就不想生了。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:45:52.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:46:01+08:00","text":"第二種，聘僱家庭的幫傭對於本來就有工作……剛才是談本來沒有工作的喔！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:46:01.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:46:19.370000+08:00","text":"現在是對本來就在工作、就業中的女性而言，也會產生負面影響，例如為了獲得晉升或追求更高職位而延長工作時間，或者老闆知道你有家庭幫傭，事情都找你做，導致你也回不了家。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:46:20.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:46:32.074000+08:00","text":"這是人口經濟學雜誌在2023年提到的，你以為家庭幫傭制度完美無缺、提升女性勞動率、提升生育率，事實上不是！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:46:32.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:46:33.315000+08:00","text":"那臺灣呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:46:33.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:46:35.857000+08:00","text":"臺灣的總工時名列前茅。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:46:38.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:46:41.263000+08:00","text":"112年南韓的一年總工時是多少？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:46:44.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:46:46.910000+08:00","text":"1,874小時，日本的總工時是多少？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:46:49.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:46:52.695000+08:00","text":"1,637小時，北歐的瑞典1,416小時，西歐的荷蘭1,351小時。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:46:52.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:46:53.415000+08:00","text":"112年的臺灣總工時：2,019小時，反觀韓國是1,874小時、日本1,637小時。","quality":0.478},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:47:06.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:47:26.225000+08:00","text":"所以，人口學家Angela跟經濟學家Olivier的量化研究論文推論，臺灣總生育率極低完全就在預料之中，因為工時太長，生育意願太低。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:47:28.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:47:31.547000+08:00","text":"外籍幫傭最氾濫的國家是哪一個國家？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:47:34.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:47:34.749000+08:00","text":"新加坡啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:47:36.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:47:37.292000+08:00","text":"剛剛不是講了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:47:37.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:47:41.217000+08:00","text":"新加坡的外籍幫傭政策全開放。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:47:42.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:47:44.361000+08:00","text":"而新加坡的一年總工時多少？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:47:44.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:47:44.881000+08:00","text":"112年總工時是多少？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:47:44.881000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:47:45.881000+08:00","text":"2,267小時！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:47:45.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:47:45.642000+08:00","text":"亞洲第一高，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:47:57.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:03.702000+08:00","text":"所以，就算在職女性需要聘請幫手協助家務，他的月薪要多少？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:04.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:08.824000+08:00","text":"一定要比聘僱外傭的薪水更高。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:10.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:17.487000+08:00","text":"那麼如果是還沒工作的女性，未來他從事工作的薪資要多少錢，才負擔得起引進外傭呢？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:19.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:24.050000+08:00","text":"年薪若沒有數百萬真的沒那麼容易啦！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:25.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:27.406000+08:00","text":"女性為什麼要主動放棄就業選擇在家育兒？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:27.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:27.586000+08:00","text":"部長，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:27.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:30.307000+08:00","text":"為什麼女性要準備生小孩、在家育兒的時候，勞動力就會下滑？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:30.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:31.688000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:31.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:32.128000+08:00","text":"為什麼是女性？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:32.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:32.268000+08:00","text":"部長，為什麼？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:32.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:32.428000+08:00","text":"你也是要回答啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:32.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:33.088000+08:00","text":"因為女性可能薪資是比較低的。對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:33.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:33.628000+08:00","text":"薪資比較低啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:33.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:34.089000+08:00","text":"那你做了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:34.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:48:34.289000+08:00","text":"你勞動部做了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:48:34.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:49:08.874000+08:00","text":"要提高女性的勞參率，那你做了什麼、你端出了什麼，讓女性繼續留在職場，而不要為了顧小孩就不上班？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:49:09.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:49:15.536000+08:00","text":"因為顧小孩的成本很高，而我上班的薪水這麼一點點，那不如我自己顧，不是嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:49:17.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:49:25.432000+08:00","text":"所以要解決勞參率這個問題，你應該端出政策，而不是只靠外籍幫傭。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:49:25.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:49:33.996000+08:00","text":"而且會放棄就業的都不是所得前五分之一那一種女性、那一種家庭啦！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:49:35.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:49:53.142000+08:00","text":"都是你沒看到、全臺灣所得前五分之一以外那五分之四家庭的女性，論勞動力最多，這一群也是最重要的，你服務那所得前五分之一的，那所得在後面五分之四的人怎麼辦呢？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:49:53.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:49:54.463000+08:00","text":"這個現象就看得出女性仍然是家務跟育兒的實質承擔者。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:49:54.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:50:23.421000+08:00","text":"號稱要留住女性勞工，但你都沒有解決這個問題，薪資低於聘僱外籍幫傭的成本或保母的成本，所以即便有意願也沒有辦法啊！","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:50:24.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:50:25.562000+08:00","text":"他要請外傭也沒有辦法啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:50:26.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:50:33.144000+08:00","text":"就算是有能力的女性、請得起外籍幫傭，也可能變相導致投入工作的時間變長，這也是另一種剝削，對不對？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:50:33.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:50:54.941000+08:00","text":"所以針對這個政策，我再說一遍：外籍幫傭這個政策真的會造成臺灣人失業、外籍勞工短缺、大家搶移工。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:50:55.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:51:09.148000+08:00","text":"只有錢留得住移工，沒有錢的中風、失能、癱瘓者這一些真正最需要長照照顧體系的家庭怎麼辦？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:51:11.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:51:24.554000+08:00","text":"能聘用顧小孩家庭幫傭的那些有錢人本來就買得起，結果你讓他們有便宜的外勞、解僱自己家庭裡的本勞，這樣好嗎？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:51:24.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:51:25.434000+08:00","text":"部長，情何以堪！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:51:35.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:51:45.656000+08:00","text":"跟委員說，其實這段時間的確有很多中產雙薪家庭表達他們很需要這個政策。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:51:46.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:51:54.414000+08:00","text":"你現在講中產、雙薪家庭的確很需要這個政策，那麼他們的實質薪水是多少？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:51:54.414000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:51:55.414000+08:00","text":"委員，我其實……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:51:55.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:51:57.155000+08:00","text":"他們的代表性是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:51:57.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:06.877000+08:00","text":"因為每次勞動部推了什麼政策，都會說「我們做了」、「有意願」，但你們沒有做好失業衝擊評估，而是先做好需求評估，這就是未射箭先畫靶，都已經畫好了，早就知道啦！","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:17.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:19.967000+08:00","text":"你講這些話對於過去的自己交代得過去嗎？","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:21.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:30.572000+08:00","text":"你說中產的也有能力，你不是講有錢人，意思就是有錢人請得起，中產家庭也請得起一個外傭。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:30.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:33.914000+08:00","text":"委員，的確有中產雙薪家庭表達想要……對啊！","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:33.914000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:35.855000+08:00","text":"的確有，當然也有啊！","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:35.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:38.376000+08:00","text":"那我要問你，你定義的中產家庭是什麼啦！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:39.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:44.299000+08:00","text":"就你所定義的中產家庭，薪水多少叫中產，你可以告訴我嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:46.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:48.082000+08:00","text":"他們跟我表達，可能雙親……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:48.082000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:49.082000+08:00","text":"我就問你啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:48.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:48.402000+08:00","text":"是個人還是多數？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:48.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:49.402000+08:00","text":"爸爸、媽媽……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:48.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:51.884000+08:00","text":"你所謂的中產階級雙薪是多少錢？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:52:52.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:52:53.845000+08:00","text":"爸爸、媽媽加起來可能有十多萬出頭的薪資，他們就希望能請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:04.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:05.225000+08:00","text":"十多萬的薪水！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:05.225000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:06.225000+08:00","text":"是雙親加起來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:06.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:10.468000+08:00","text":"他們是不是本來就有需求？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:11.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:14.990000+08:00","text":"那本來有沒有請人顧？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:15.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:16.571000+08:00","text":"他的確反映因為夜間的薪資特別高……","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:16.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:18.532000+08:00","text":"所以你們這個政策是顧小孩為主、家庭幫傭為輔啦！不是。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:18.532000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:21.274000+08:00","text":"是顧小孩為主，家庭幫傭為輔啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:21.274000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:24.016000+08:00","text":"委員，並不是這樣的，很多都表達他們很希望……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:24.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:35.326000+08:00","text":"那我現在告訴你新加坡那個例子，人家走過了那一段路，那對於新加坡的例子你又怎麼講？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:35.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:37.728000+08:00","text":"你現在可以繼續講、繼續拗啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:38.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:50.695000+08:00","text":"但是新加坡就告訴你了、活生生的例子就在那裡了，婦女出去外面的工時愈來愈長，家庭和工作沒有得到平衡。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:51.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:52.037000+08:00","text":"然後呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:52.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:53:54.420000+08:00","text":"我也跟你講了很多遍啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:53:55.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:54:03.432000+08:00","text":"外傭可以幫你接小孩，但不能讓你準時下班；可以接你的小孩，但你不能準時下班。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:54:03.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:54:07.856000+08:00","text":"外傭可以幫你煮飯，但不會幫你加薪。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:54:08.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:54:19.429000+08:00","text":"外傭可以幫你陪孩子，但沒有辦法成為孩子的父母、扮演孩子父母在教育上該扮演的角色──父母該有的陪伴角色。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:54:24.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:54:27.798000+08:00","text":"我的意思是對於五分之四的家庭需求，你怎麼辦？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:54:27.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:54:29.420000+08:00","text":"你怎麼沒有端出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:54:30.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:54:31.121000+08:00","text":"這是不是一種階級政策？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:54:33.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:54:35.225000+08:00","text":"你說不是，因為中產家庭有人跟你反映。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:54:35.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:54:37.087000+08:00","text":"有人跟你反映就可以了？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:54:38.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:54:52.451000+08:00","text":"那我也在這裡向你大聲疾呼、陳情，為那些癱瘓者、失能者、中風者的家庭向你請命，你讓他們的外勞不要跟他們吵架、要求轉換雇主、去顧有錢人的小孩。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:54:53.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:55:02.676000+08:00","text":"我也在這裡幫中風者、癱瘓者、失能者的家庭向你請命，請你不要說不加薪的話外勞就要跑了！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:55:03.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:55:07.619000+08:00","text":"我也替他們向你請命，以免外勞為了要離職每天生事。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:55:09.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:55:15.723000+08:00","text":"我也替他們請命，不要讓他們的家族心驚膽顫，不知道中風的父母有誰要顧。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:55:18.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:55:19.473000+08:00","text":"你怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:55:19.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:55:22.494000+08:00","text":"你要端出什麼樣的政策給我們？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:55:22.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:55:35.279000+08:00","text":"有人向你請命，說他很辛苦、他需要人幫忙顧孩子、做家務，但這一群失能者、癱瘓者家庭的辛苦誰要幫忙解決？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:55:35.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:55:41.844000+08:00","text":"我也在這裡請命啊！真的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:55:43.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:55:49.371000+08:00","text":"不然你想辦法讓外籍移工的供給源源不絕、供大於求。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:55:49.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:55:50.091000+08:00","text":"現在是供不應求，你讓他們供大於求啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:55:50.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:55:50.292000+08:00","text":"現在不只是臺灣在搶工欸！","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:55:51.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:55:51.813000+08:00","text":"日本、韓國，乃至世界都在搶外籍勞工欸！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:56:09.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:56:13.594000+08:00","text":"全世界大家都在搶工欸！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-01T12:56:13.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:56:15.257000+08:00","text":"不要以為外籍移工開放這麼簡單，就不是啊！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-01T12:56:15.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:56:15.598000+08:00","text":"謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-01T12:56:16.098000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:56:18.098000+08:00","text":"請陳瑩委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}