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謝謝主席 麻煩請一下洪部長好 請洪部長請問好部長好 首先想要先跟您請教一下答案都跟你說了 跟你看了但是我想問的是原住民的職在千人綠"},{"start":39.653,"end":58.398,"text":"你給他看沒關係啊,那也不是今年的吧我要問你今年的114年原住民的職災遷人率是多少?跟委員報告,我們現在正在統計中那初步的資料是職災遷人率是3.267那全產業的職災遷人率又是多少?"},{"start":71.141,"end":99.436,"text":"我們可能要再查一下數據我幫你查好這2點你們也還沒公布我就不要聽你們公布了對因為113年我這邊簡報上面是前年的那去年的我們目前還沒有看到那這目前你們還沒公布那這個兩者的相差他有一些差距那部長你怎麼看待這個差距有什麼特別的意義嗎"},{"start":101.594,"end":119.463,"text":"的確原住民族他在很多他的就業跟職業上面可能是比較會是高風險的職場的確我們也看到這個狀況第一個來部長我跟你說一下我換算給你看那每年大約有上萬件的這個職災發生以114年來看總共有25371件意思是說呢在這個兩萬大概"},{"start":129.648,"end":150.467,"text":"大概25000件的植栽里面呢比例换算一下从这个刚刚植栽千人率这样换算起来我们大概原住民的部分有占了15000人那其他族群的部分加起来大约有1万人左右这个比例是这样看起来是很可怕的那"},{"start":152.048,"end":179.21,"text":"原住民的這個職災宣導跟統計我們在過去在這個研究所就是我們前所長何俊傑的帶領之下他有特別建置了這個專屬的網站可以利用那這個網站在過去定期會分析原住民的這個職災的特性那這也顯示勞動部對於原住民高發生率的職災是有所重視的"},{"start":180.071,"end":202.734,"text":"那只是說在他離開之後那我們最近想要再查詢這個網站那我特別上網去看你們在這個網頁3月30號的時候有更新這個要給你們拍拍手但是我很認真的再去看一下裡面的內容卻停留在"},{"start":203.795,"end":222.864,"text":"去年也就是去年114年2月17日裡面的內容是完全沒有更新了所以本席會合理的懷疑所以我們是不是因為今天有這個專報然後你們要來備詢所以我趕快做個假動作那個網頁給他更新一下而且只有一人瀏覽那一人就是我們啊"},{"start":224.068,"end":241.654,"text":"不是 他主要是他的資料的時間出來因為他可能涉及到勞保的資料然後我們還要跟內政部所以我們今年其實應該在三月中的時候重點是因為網頁今天三月三十要有更新而且這已經就是有過了一年多了這有一年多的差距"},{"start":242.554,"end":260.866,"text":"那比較重要的是說我們看一下113年是比112年植栽增加了64例那我不知道說114年它會繼續上升還是下降那因為我要講的是整體來說114年應該是下降的"},{"start":264.148,"end":285.583,"text":"那我們下降聽起來很好 好消息 但我們來細看一下114年度職災死亡的人數是251人比這個前年度要減少了36人看起來如部長所說的 我們這個降災的成效看起來是不錯的"},{"start":287.184,"end":314.698,"text":"我覺得還有精進的空間好沒關係但是至少看起來人數下降嘛那這個要給你拍拍手但是呢我們在西部看一下實際上是因為今年我們的這個近年我們住宅的開工數也下降了下降了兩趴那也就是等於少了將近三千戶左右那這個也是一個很重要的數據那我們這樣換算起來"},{"start":316.219,"end":334.369,"text":"可能就不一定是降灾成效良好了因为更何况在你们的制造业就是说制造业的死亡人数它是比去年增加了7人那total是你看在全产业"},{"start":335.51,"end":352.137,"text":"這個7不要小看這7個人這就已經佔了這個增加這7個等於佔了全產業的25%的死亡人數了好這個是很高的好那我們再看一下喔就是在"},{"start":356.26,"end":369.112,"text":"教育跟宣導是當然是這個旨在預防非常重要的措施那感覺過去你們看起來是比較重視那畢竟就是說原住民利用這個我們遂時祭儀還有"},{"start":371.934,"end":395.749,"text":"各類的活動像射箭、壘球比賽等等你們在這些活動上藉這樣子人數聚集的時候我們大力的宣導當然這是過去研究所所主導而且有看到一些好成績但是同時我在這邊也要提醒勞動部就是我們要注意數據的正確性"},{"start":397.95,"end":413.304,"text":"那也不要像職安署就是說曾經他發布了然後又增加重大職災人數因為必要的時候部長你也可以請這個跟這個勞保局可以再確認一下部長是不是可以同意這樣的建議"},{"start":414.665,"end":440.932,"text":"我們當然會請治安署跟勞保局都保持資料上面的對接那今年初其實的確有一度我們有增加幾個人重大自災人數但比較大的原因是因為當時其實有一些自災認定案件還在司法單位裡面其實檢察官還在認定那後來檢方把那個他的資料給確認出來以後他是自災所以我們也很直接的就把這些相關的數字加上去那我們都不會隱匿不會隱匿絕對不會隱匿"},{"start":444.957,"end":471.317,"text":"因为大家都会去看当年的这个换算的人数嘛那至于你说每年都要去解释为什么增加我们现在会是每季那我想这个部分就提醒你们我每三个月就公布一次那这个另外要也是要再提醒劳动部就是说我们"},{"start":472.558,"end":494.338,"text":"就是說在這個你們那個下降就是說數據一下下降太顯著太漂亮然後又沒有分析原因的時候然後發佈的時間又比往年要再晚我說這樣的種種的這個跡象會讓我們難免去質疑這個數據的真實性所以跟我們說明我們接下來會是每三個月每一季就會發佈一次好"},{"start":496.618,"end":525.42,"text":"那我們就拭目以待希望有所精進那另外就是說勞研所的這個績效跟部長是不是重視會不會有沒有在重視是有很大的關係因為這個機構呢他當然配合這103年2月勞委會升格為勞動部之後呢所有的預算跟人員呢都沒有變動那全部都是職業安全衛生的背景的研究人員"},{"start":526.901,"end":554.41,"text":"那但是呢我們檢視一下這個政府的所長還有新來的主命呢都不是這個職業安全衛生的這個職安衛的這個專業的人去領導那本席只是想要請教說部長這樣子的安排在領導統一上會不會容易出問題那專業上有沒有說服力"},{"start":555.65,"end":583.418,"text":"會不會容易做出錯誤的決策跟判斷而不自知然後造成而且底下的這些專業的部署可能也不敢多說什麼那這些呢可能都會影響到部長做出一些在做判斷的時候做決策的時候可能會有一些落差那我想我不知道部長有沒有掌握這樣的問題或者認為這樣根本也不是問題"},{"start":584.841,"end":599.501,"text":"跟文說明第一個因為確實我們研究所這邊過去比較多會是專案位的人員但其實近年外界越來越重視很多關於勞動市場相關的研究所以我們這幾年尤其是跟勞動力有關的好"},{"start":599.821,"end":616.58,"text":"包括跟就業有關的這也其實是在我們整個研究的範圍裡面所以我們整個接下來當然我們還是會保持因為我們的在這個研究所的一個優勢就是針對職安衛的研究的部分可是接下來我們也會要來強化在勞動市場上面的研究因為這也是現在包括大家提到缺工的問題"},{"start":618.682,"end":638.655,"text":"包括各種勞動型態的研究的問題這可能過去不是傳統職安衛範圍的但是我講的是我剛剛談的問題主要是集中在我們的第一層一層的這個專業人士的部分他們的專業因為畢竟這個領導你也可以平衡一下"},{"start":639.856,"end":654.091,"text":"我的問題在這裡跟跟文說明其實因為現在那個王所長他之前在公布的重規師其實重規師就是掌握跟了解整個勞動部相關的政策其實都了解到都有一定程度的了解"},{"start":654.992,"end":675.658,"text":"所以當然這個如果委員有什麼建議我們可以也再來跟委員聽取委員的建議那或者是有什麼提醒也可以再來提醒我們我想我點出這個問題啦那那個部長重不重視認為是不是有問題就是我也沒有辦法勉強但我想"},{"start":677.398,"end":696.532,"text":"在針對因為我們是監督單位那我就提出這樣子的提醒那另外就是說今天另外的議題是霸凌那目前就是說有關於這個職場霸凌的諮詢專線我們查了一下除了1955之外還有這個職安署跟這個勞工健康服務的心理諮商專線並沒有專責的這個服務單位你們未來會設置嗎"},{"start":704.298,"end":721.194,"text":"會想要設置在哪裡嗎我想接下來在預防重圓中心我們會來規劃相關的機制好這樣很好謝謝喔那職安署的這個職場霸凌申訴管道申訴專線跟傳真請問從這個職安法的霸凌專章通過之後接到申訴服務的次數次量有沒有統計有沒有"},{"start":724.037,"end":736.448,"text":"對 你們有統計嗎跟委員報告 因為現行是條文還沒施行不過過去以來的不罰侵害的這個案件都有持續在接受跟統計所以目前是沒有啦因為還沒上路"},{"start":739.23,"end":766.035,"text":"因為只要是涉及到人的管理就有可能有這個霸凌的發生那這個涉及到客觀的事實跟主觀的感受那勞動部呢剛好就自己你們都遇到了那第一案呢謝一榮的案子勞動部從一開始調查是不成立的後來因為龐大的這個輿論壓力那我們又重啟調查然後又成立了這個就是他重新調查之後又成立了"},{"start":767.015,"end":787.355,"text":"结果呢这个法院认定又霸凌案又不成立那另外一件呢是裁判法人职灾中心的主管的霸凌案那法人的内部调查经过他经过三次三次的会议决议才认定这个霸凌案成立过程看起来是非常严谨啊"},{"start":788.588,"end":802.281,"text":"但是呢這位被認定霸凌案的副處長卻還不斷的去提告申訴人證人還有調查委員結果呢反而被法院的這個判決書"},{"start":803.982,"end":826.621,"text":"把這個調查的這個過程結果認定霸凌案的理由公開那結果呢就變成了這個是霸凌專章通過之後我國第一件我們第一件由法院引用職安法認證通過的霸凌案成立那我想要請部長去看一下那份判決書就是"},{"start":829.242,"end":842.63,"text":"臺灣臺北地方法院114年度勞檢制第183號民事判決原告葉秀珊告證人原告之訴駁回我想我把這一份就先送給部長"},{"start":862.961,"end":890.254,"text":"好 這個看起來職安署負責的調查程序跟結果遠遠不如你們當時的這個職災中心能夠在司法認證上站得住腳那部長你知道嗎在有聽說這位副處長在調查階段有私下事先跟調查委員接觸我想請教部長調查委員的名單是不是不公開"},{"start":892.155,"end":920.914,"text":"應該是不公開吧他不能事先公開吧根文說明第一個在重建中心當時有幾件的霸凌案我們都依照相關的程序來辦理所以確實因為這當然涉及到一些個資那幾件案子那確實有霸凌成立的情況他不是到法院才認定霸凌成立是在我們在這個重建中心在法人的調查裡面就認定"},{"start":922.155,"end":947.28,"text":"成立的對而且認定完以後也做了相關的處置好在法人那個時候就認定成立是好那你可能要關注一下後續的發展對所以後來我現在後來又有他們的提告到法院部長我現在問的你要回答我我現在問的是調查委員的名單是可以事先公開的嗎因為"},{"start":950.509,"end":979.366,"text":"因為你們的這位副處長他事先去跟著這個調查委員接觸了啊你不知道這件事嗎你知道嗎調查委員的名單我們其實並沒有公開好那我想請問葉秀珊副處長他是如何得知調查委員是誰那他怎麼可以事先去找調查委員部長你要不要回去調查一下為什麼"},{"start":981.647,"end":989.393,"text":"我不確定他怎麼知道但我要可以說的事情是說這個案子基本上這個內部的調查霸凌就是成立的"},{"start":990.751,"end":1018.037,"text":"我要在這裡 我現在不是部長你稍等一下部長你弄清楚我的問題我今天我不是在跟你討論霸凌案我不是在跟你計較霸凌案在你們內部就已經成立還是到法院才成立我今天我在乎的是為什麼這個副處長他可以事先知道這個調查委員的名單如果你們在這件事情上不能好好把關的話那未來會變成什麼樣子"},{"start":1021.098,"end":1032.284,"text":"所以我今天在這裡要求我很清楚有掌握這個訊息業副處長他有跟調查委員他有去找他有接觸那"},{"start":1035.785,"end":1055.245,"text":"你要很正視我提出來今天這個問題因為他可能就是成為未來你們在處理所有的大靈案的一個很重要的一個破口所以如果你有相關的資訊的話其實你可以提供給我們但是問題是這個葉副處長到處告人搞不好我今天質詢完他也告我呀"},{"start":1057.103,"end":1070.998,"text":"雖然不會成立但是他可能也會到處告啦那我要提一下啦就如果你有明確的事實的話你也可以提供給我們部長你暫時不要再跟我反駁任何事情因為我告訴你有這件事情那我們要提出來是因為"},{"start":1073.16,"end":1101.198,"text":"我希望你做調查你去調查為什麼會發生然後你把這個調查結果跟本席報告跟我們所有委員衛環委員會的委員來報告我為什麼要你做這個動作因為未來如果有內部的人因此受影響而有特定的立場造成有一方被冤枉了那霸凌專章未來還可以保護勞工嗎還是說變成有利人士的這些可以興風作浪的源頭"},{"start":1102.483,"end":1126.313,"text":"好我今天特別指出這個問題我是要你杜絕未來有可能發生同樣的問題所以你一定要回去調查所以委員當時在這個法人裡面的確有幾件霸凌案的調查霸凌案成立以後我們在人事上面都做了處理的就是希望杜絕也希望能夠讓法人有一個新的在人事上面一個新的開始"},{"start":1127.349,"end":1146.114,"text":"所以我們也不希望說未來負責調查的或者去做證人的都被變成被告或者是甚至被開除或者甚至被反告變成是霸凌的對象這些都是不對啦"},{"start":1147.625,"end":1162.777,"text":"所以一般的法律都可以透過執法或者這個行政命令來確保這個法律的效果可以被發揮那你們現在既然訂了這個霸凌專章但是你們卻沒有這個實質程序禁止行為等等的宣示都沒有所以"},{"start":1163.738,"end":1191.915,"text":"而且也沒有這個諮詢服務的專責單位所以我希望勞動部你們可以再繼續加油要有所作為讓自己通過的法案能夠真正發揮到保護被霸凌的勞工委員我還是做說明說現在附屬法規正在修訂中所以剛才委員剛才講到的幾個點包括禁止的部分在新的附屬法規裡面我們都有放進去對這是在去年底的修法之後然後再新訂的附屬法規那我們希望能夠在7月1號可以上路"},{"start":1192.844,"end":1208.168,"text":"好那這個部分喔我剛剛講的那個調這個事先那個名單洩露然後被我是說那個葉副處長去找的這件事情好你們一定要好好調查清楚如果有委員有什麼相關資訊也可以再提供給我們我們來確認對謝謝謝謝陳營委的資訊"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:56:45.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:56:47.716000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩請洪部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-01T12:56:48.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:56:48.396000+08:00","text":"請洪部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:56:48.396000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:56:54.477000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:56:54.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:56:54.777000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:56:55.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:57:11.341000+08:00","text":"首先想跟您請教一下……答案都跟你說了、給你看了，但是我想問的是原住民的職災千人率。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:57:13.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:57:15.994000+08:00","text":"你給他看也沒關係，但那也不是今年的吧！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:57:16.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:57:21.935000+08:00","text":"我要問你的是今年……114年的原住民職災千人率是多少。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"王所長厚誠","start":"2026-04-01T12:57:27.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:57:31.398000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們現在正在統計中，根據初步資料，職災千人率是3.267。好。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:57:31.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:57:32.378000+08:00","text":"那全產業的職災千人率又是多少？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:57:45.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:57:46.962000+08:00","text":"我們可能要再查一下數據。114年？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:57:46.962000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T12:57:47.962000+08:00","text":"就目前看到的是3……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:57:46.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:57:51.925000+08:00","text":"我幫你查好了，是二點……你們也還沒公布啦！","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:57:52.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:57:53.425000+08:00","text":"我就不要替你們公布了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:57:57.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:58:04.871000+08:00","text":"113年……我的簡報上是前年的，去年的我目前還沒有看到……你們還沒公布啦！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:58:07.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:58:13.436000+08:00","text":"兩者有一些差距，那麼部長怎麼看待這個差距，有什麼特別的意義嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T12:58:16.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:58:24.959000+08:00","text":"原住民族有很多在就業與職業等方面是在比較高風險的職場，我們的確看到這個狀況。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:58:26.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:59:03.746000+08:00","text":"部長，我跟你說，我換算給你看，每年大約有上萬件職災發生，以114年來看總共有2萬5,371件，意思是在這大概兩萬五千件職災裡面，就比例換算一下，也就是以剛剛的職災千人率換算下來，原住民的部分大概占了1萬5,000人，其他族群加起來大約有一萬人左右，比例是這樣，看起來是很可怕的。","quality":0.702},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:59:06.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:59:22.201000+08:00","text":"關於原住民的職災宣導跟統計，過去研究所在前所長何俊傑的帶領之下，特別建置了專屬網站可以利用。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:59:23.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:59:33.190000+08:00","text":"這個網站過去會定期分析原住民職災的特性，也顯示勞動部對原住民的職災高發生率是有所重視的。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:59:34.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T12:59:49.827000+08:00","text":"只是在他離開之後，我們最近再查詢這個網站、我特別上網看了，發現你們在3月30日更新了網頁，這點我要為你們拍拍手。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T12:59:51.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:00:13.862000+08:00","text":"但是我很認真再去看裡面的內容，卻停留在去年114年2月17日，裡面的內容完全沒有更新，所以本席合理地懷疑，是不是因為今天有專報然後你們要來備詢，所以趕快做個假動作把網頁更新一下？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:00:14.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:00:16.844000+08:00","text":"而且只有1人瀏覽，那1人就是我們啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:00:18.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:00:18.208000+08:00","text":"委員，不是。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:00:18.208000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T13:00:20.189000+08:00","text":"不是喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:00:20.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:00:28.111000+08:00","text":"主要是它的資料出來的時間，因為它可能涉及到勞保的資料，然後我們還要跟內政部連繫，所以今年其實應該是在3月中的時候……","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:00:28.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:00:35.634000+08:00","text":"重點是因為網頁在3月30日更新，而且已經過了一年多，這有一年多的差距。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:00:36.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:00:53.825000+08:00","text":"比較重要的是，我們看到113年比112年的職災增加了64例，我不知道114年它會繼續上升還是下降，我要講的是，在……","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:00:53.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:00:54.846000+08:00","text":"整體來說，114年應該是下降的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:00:59.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:01:19.563000+08:00","text":"好，下降聽起來很好，是好消息，但我們來細看一下，114年度職災死亡的人數是251人，比前年度減少36人，看起來就如部長所說，我們降災的成效是不錯的。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:01:21.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:01:22.605000+08:00","text":"我覺得還有精進的空間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:01:22.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:01:26.767000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，至少看起來人數下降，這個要給你拍拍手。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:01:27.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:01:54.502000+08:00","text":"但是我們再從細部來看，實際上是因為近年的住宅開工數也下降了，下降2%，等於少了將近3,000戶左右，這也是一個很重要的數據，那這樣換算起來，可能就不一定是降災成效良好囉！","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:01:55.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:02:18.794000+08:00","text":"更何況製造業死亡人數是比去年增加了7人，不要小看這7個人，增加這7個等於占了全產業25%的死亡人數，這個是很高的。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:02:22.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:03:02.384000+08:00","text":"我們再看一下，教育和宣導當然是職災預防非常重要的措施，感覺過去你們是比較重視，利用原住民的歲時祭儀還有各類的活動，像射箭、壘球比賽等等，你們在這些活動上藉著人數聚集的時候大力地宣導，當然過去是由研究所所主導，而且有看到一些好成績啦！","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:03:02.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:03:27.304000+08:00","text":"但是我同時也要提醒勞動部，要注意數據的正確性，不要像職安署曾經發布了然後又增加重大職災人數，因為必要的時候你也可以跟勞保局再確認一下，部長是不是可以同意這樣的建議？","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:03:28.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:03:32.606000+08:00","text":"我們當然會請職安署跟勞保局都保持資料上面的對接。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:03:35.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:03:54.932000+08:00","text":"今年初的確有一度我們重大職災的人數有增加幾個人的人數，但比較大的原因是因為當時有一些職災認定案件還在司法單位裡面，檢察官還在認定，後來檢察官把他的資料確認出來以後，確認他是職災，所以我們也很直接地就把那些相關的數字加上去，我們都不會隱匿，絕對不會隱匿。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:03:58.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:04:04.681000+08:00","text":"因為大家都會去看當年的換算人數嘛！","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:04:05.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:04:09.485000+08:00","text":"至於你說每年都要去解釋為什麼增加、為什麼……","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:04:10.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:04:11.246000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們現在會是每季，所以……","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:04:12.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:04:14.229000+08:00","text":"好，我想這個部分就提醒你們，好嗎？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:04:15.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:04:16.610000+08:00","text":"我們每3個月就會公布一次。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:04:18.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:04:44.855000+08:00","text":"另外，也要再提醒勞動部，你們那個數據一下子下降得太顯著、太漂亮，然後又沒有分析原因，加上發布的時間又比往年要晚，種種的跡象會讓我們難免去質疑這個數據的真實性。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:04:45.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:04:48.298000+08:00","text":"所以跟委員說明，我們接下來會是每3個月，每一季就會發布一次。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:04:48.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:04:54.841000+08:00","text":"好，我們就拭目以待，希望有所精進。是。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:04:55.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:05:45.989000+08:00","text":"另外，勞研所的績效跟部長是不是重視、有沒有重視有很大的關係，因為這個機構它配合103年2月勞委會升格為勞動部之後，所有的預算和人員都沒有變動，全部都是具職業安全衛生背景的研究人員，但是我們檢視一下正副所長還有新來的主秘，都不是職安衛專業的人去領導，本席只是想要請教部長，這樣子的安排在領導統御上會不會容易出問題？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:05:46.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:05:48.390000+08:00","text":"在專業上有沒有說服力？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:05:49.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:06:00.013000+08:00","text":"會不會容易做出錯誤的決策和判斷而不自知，而且底下這些專業的部屬可能也不敢多說什麼？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:06:00.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:06:17.418000+08:00","text":"這些可能都會導致部長在做判斷、做決策的時候會有一些落差，我不知道部長有沒有掌握這樣的問題或者認為這樣根本也不是問題？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:06:18.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:06:37.525000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個，確實我們研究所這邊過去比較多會是職安衛的人員，但近年外界越來越重視很多關於勞動市場相關的研究，所以我們這幾年，尤其是跟勞動力有關的，包括跟就業有關的，這其實也是在我們整個研究的範圍裡面。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:06:38.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:06:50.580000+08:00","text":"接下來當然我們還是會保持，因為這個研究所的優勢就是針對職安衛研究的部分，可是接下來我們也會強化在勞動市場上面的研究，包括現在大家談到缺工的問題……","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:06:50.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T13:06:52.682000+08:00","text":"這都無可厚非，部長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:06:52.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:06:56.385000+08:00","text":"包括各種勞動型態研究的問題，這可能過去不是傳統職安衛的範圍。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:06:56.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:07:12.635000+08:00","text":"部長，這個無可厚非，但是我剛剛談的問題主要是集中在第一層專業人士的部分，他們的專業，因為畢竟領導的部分你也可以平衡一下啊！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:07:13.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:07:14.917000+08:00","text":"我的問題在這裡。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:07:14.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:07:38.174000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，現在的王所長之前是在勞動部的綜規司，綜規司就是掌握跟瞭解整個勞動部相關的政策，其實都有一定程度的瞭解，當然委員如果有什麼建議，我們可以再來聽取委員的建議，或者是委員有什麼提醒也可以來提醒我們。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:07:38.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:07:40.115000+08:00","text":"對，我想我點出這個問題啦！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:07:41.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:07:55.721000+08:00","text":"至於部長重不重視，認為是不是有問題，我也沒有辦法勉強，但因為我們是監督單位，所以我就提出這樣子的提醒。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:07:58.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:08:10.532000+08:00","text":"今天另外一個議題是霸凌，目前有關於職場霸凌的諮詢專線我們查了一下，除了1955之外，還有職安署跟勞工健康服務的心理諮商專線，並沒有專責的服務單位，你們未來會設置嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:08:18.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:08:19.719000+08:00","text":"會想要設置在哪裡嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:08:20.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:08:21.882000+08:00","text":"接下來在預防重建中心我們會來規劃相關的機制。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:08:22.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:08:23.663000+08:00","text":"好，這樣很好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:08:24.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:08:34.954000+08:00","text":"職安署的職場霸凌申訴管道，包括申訴專線和傳真，請問從職安法的霸凌專章通過之後，接到申訴服務的次量有沒有統計？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:08:38.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:08:38.597000+08:00","text":"你們有統計嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長毓堂","start":"2026-04-01T13:08:38.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:08:48.026000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為現行是條文還沒施行，不過過去以來的不法侵害案件都有持續在接受跟統計。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:08:48.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:08:48.886000+08:00","text":"好，所以目前是沒有？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林署長毓堂","start":"2026-04-01T13:08:49.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:08:50.428000+08:00","text":"因為還沒上路，對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:08:53.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:09:24.599000+08:00","text":"因為只要是涉及到人的管理就可能有霸凌的發生，這個涉及到客觀的事實與主觀的感受，剛好勞動部你們自己就遇到了，第1案謝宜容的案子勞動部從一開始調查是不成立的，後來因為龐大的輿論壓力又重啟調查，重新調查之後又成立了，結果法院認定霸凌案又不成立。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:09:26.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:09:40.774000+08:00","text":"另外一件是財團法人職災中心的主管霸凌案，法人的內部調查，它經過三次的會議決議才認定這個霸凌案成立，過程看起來是非常嚴謹。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:09:42.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:10:16.137000+08:00","text":"但是這位被認定霸凌案的副處長卻還不斷地去提告申訴人、證人及調查委員，反而被法院的判決書把這個調查的過程及認定霸凌案的理由公開，結果就變成了霸凌專章通過之後，我國第一件由法院引用職安法認證通過的霸凌案成立。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:10:17.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:10:56.961000+08:00","text":"我想要請部長去看一下那份判決書，就是「臺灣臺北地方法院114年度勞簡字第183號民事判決」，內容是原告葉琇姍告證人，而原告之訴駁回，我把這一份先送給部長，重點幫你劃好了。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:10:58.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:11:11.248000+08:00","text":"看起來職安署負責的調查程序跟結果遠遠不如你們當時的職災中心能夠在司法認證上站得住腳，部長你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:11:13.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:11:24.254000+08:00","text":"聽說這位副處長在調查階段有事先跟調查委員私下接觸，我想請教部長，調查委員的名單是不是不公開？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:11:26.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:11:26.996000+08:00","text":"應該是不公開吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:11:28.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:11:29.678000+08:00","text":"它不能事先公開吧？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:11:30.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:00.256000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個，在重建中心當時有幾件霸凌案，我們都依照相關的程序來辦理，因為這個涉及到一些個資，幾件案子確實有霸凌成立的情況，它不是到法院才認定霸凌成立，而是在重建中心、在法人的調查裡面就認定成立的，而且認定完以後也做了相關的處置。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:00.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:04.677000+08:00","text":"好，在法人那個時候就認定成立。是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:05.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:07.717000+08:00","text":"那你可能要關注一下後續的發展。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:08.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:11.638000+08:00","text":"對，所以後來他們有提告到法院。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:12.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:21.260000+08:00","text":"部長，我現在問的你要回答我，我現在問的是，調查委員的名單是可以事先公開的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:21.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:30.512000+08:00","text":"因為你們這位副處長他事先去跟這個調查委員接觸了啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:30.512000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:33.094000+08:00","text":"委員，第一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:33.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:34.775000+08:00","text":"你不知道這件事嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:34.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:35.976000+08:00","text":"你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:35.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:39.117000+08:00","text":"調查委員的名單我們其實並沒有公開。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:39.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:47.682000+08:00","text":"好，那我想請問，葉琇姍副處長他是如何得知調查委員是誰？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:47.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:51.264000+08:00","text":"他怎麼可以事先去找調查委員？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:51.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:12:53.366000+08:00","text":"部長，你要不要回去調查一下這是為什麼？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:12:55.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:13:03.373000+08:00","text":"我不確定他怎麼知道，但我可以說的事情是，這個案子基本上內部的調查霸凌就是成立的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:13:04.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:13:07.672000+08:00","text":"但我要在這裡，我現在不是……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:13:07.672000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T13:13:08.672000+08:00","text":"所以這一位被指控的，霸凌就是成立。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:13:07.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:13:27.276000+08:00","text":"部長，你稍停一下，你弄清楚我的問題，我今天不是在跟你討論霸凌案，我不是在跟你計較霸凌案在你們內部就已經成立還是到法院才成立，我今天在乎的是，為什麼這個副處長可以事先知道調查委員的名單？","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:13:27.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:13:32.017000+08:00","text":"如果你們在這件事情上不能好好把關的話，那未來會變成什麼樣子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:13:35.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:14:00.035000+08:00","text":"所以我今天在這裡要求，我很清楚有掌握這個訊息，葉副處長他有去找調查委員，他有接觸，你要很正視我今天提出來的這個問題，因為它可能會成為未來你們在處理所有霸凌案一個很重要的破口。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:14:00.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:14:04.199000+08:00","text":"所以委員如果有相關資訊的話，其實你可以提供給我們，讓我們知道……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:14:04.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:14:09.224000+08:00","text":"但是問題是這個葉副處長到處告人，搞不好我今天質詢完他也告我呀！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:14:11.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:14:13.245000+08:00","text":"雖然不會成立，但是他可能也會到處告啊！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:14:13.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:14:15.388000+08:00","text":"那我要提一下，我認為你……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:14:15.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:14:18.791000+08:00","text":"如果委員有明確事證的話，你也可以提供給我們。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:14:18.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:14:40.168000+08:00","text":"部長，你暫時不要再跟我反駁任何的事情，因為我告訴你有這件事情，我們提出來是希望你做調查，你去調查為什麼會發生，然後你把調查結果跟本席報告，跟我們衛環委員會所有的委員來報告。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:14:40.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:14:41.469000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要你做這個動作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:14:42.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:14:52.136000+08:00","text":"因為未來如果有內部的人因此受影響而有特定的立場，造成有一方被冤枉了，那霸凌專章未來還可以保護勞工嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:14:52.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:14:55.198000+08:00","text":"還是說變成有力人士可以興風作浪的源頭？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:14:56.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:15:05.427000+08:00","text":"我今天特別指出這個問題，我是要你杜絕未來有可能發生同樣的問題，所以你一定要回去調查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:15:05.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:15:20.293000+08:00","text":"所以委員，當時在這個法人裡面的確有幾件霸凌案的調查，霸凌案成立以後，我們在人事上面都做了處理，就是希望杜絕，也希望讓法人在人事上面有一個新的開始。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:15:21.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:15:30.871000+08:00","text":"對，我們也不希望未來負責調查的或者去做證人的，都變成被告……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:15:30.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T13:15:33.332000+08:00","text":"當然不希望。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:15:33.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:15:40.094000+08:00","text":"甚至是被開除，甚至被反告變成是霸凌的對象，這些都是不對的啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:15:42.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:16:08.424000+08:00","text":"一般的法律都可以透過子法或是行政命令來確保法律的效果可以被發揮，你們現在既然訂了霸凌專章，但是你們卻沒有實質程序，禁止行為等等的宣示都沒有，而且也沒有諮詢服務的專責單位，所以我希望勞動部你們可以再繼續加油，要有所作為，讓自己通過的法案能夠真正發揮效果，保護被霸凌的勞工。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:16:08.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:16:25.895000+08:00","text":"我還是做個說明，現在附屬法規正在修訂中，所以剛才委員講到的幾個點，包括禁止的部分，在新的附屬法規裡面我們都有放進去，這是在去年底修法之後再新訂的附屬法規，我們希望能夠在7月1日可以上路。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-04-01T13:16:26.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:16:39.007000+08:00","text":"好，那這個部分，我剛剛講名單事先洩漏，然後調查委員被葉副處長去找的這件事情，你們一定要好好調查清楚。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-01T13:16:39.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:16:42.048000+08:00","text":"如果委員有相關的資訊也可以再提供給我們，我們來確認。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-01T13:16:42.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-01T13:16:42.148000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢，現在休息20分鐘。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-01T13:16:42.648000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T13:16:43.790857+08:00","text":"休息（13時16分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-01T13:16:44.090857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T13:16:45.805143+08:00","text":"繼續開會（13時36分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-01T13:16:46.105143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T13:16:47.819429+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-01T13:16:48.119429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-01T13:16:50.976571+08:00","text":"現在請王正旭委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}