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附入要不要管制我們曾經有很多討論包括我們這次送來的行政院版有第一次把立法委員送來這邊做規範把它放在特定人員來審查"},{"start":284.173,"end":309.746,"text":"以及我們也在這次的修法裡面有把所有的民選公職人員賦入接觸黨政軍都必須公開揭露這個都是過去所沒有的也是我們來確保我們的跟公務人員跟公職員有關賦入我們經過透明化那麼來防範一方面是提醒對內提醒你可能會被有滲透的風險"},{"start":310.726,"end":334.292,"text":"二方面就是讓大家都知道我們的公職人員到中國大陸去幹什麼那這個也是希望達成一個民主防衛機制那我們要強調剛剛委員提的這個方向也是我們本來要立法但是怕說規範的實在是因為我們台灣的政黨很多那什麼是有政治影響力的這些"},{"start":336.093,"end":349.891,"text":"人物或是政黨代理人那這方面我們曾經有一度想要這麼做但是後來考慮規範太多所以想說下一次再提出來我們很支持委員的提拔因為我的建議就是說確實政黨是獨"},{"start":352.153,"end":376.627,"text":"所以或許有沒有跟國會握有一定的席次的政黨或許納入規範那這樣的話也比較符合比例原則那我會問這個問題還有另外一個理由就是因為最近爆發的這個徐春英的案件那徐春英的案件很特別就是說我們以往我們所關注的是比如說中國把手伸到我們的立法院或者說中國把手伸到我們的公務機關"},{"start":377.848,"end":405.271,"text":"這是不分政黨的喔大家都有可能被滲透被滲透的其實都是被害者所以當民眾黨發生這種事情的時候對我來講我覺得民眾黨也是受害者對不對就是他畢竟被滲透嘛那當然他滲透怎麼處理那是民眾黨黨內的家務事但我們現在看到的就是因為剛剛講的是國民黨民眾黨一樣也是在國會握有重要的席次那中國如果今天是把手伸到政黨內部的運作然後政黨內部再去要求"},{"start":405.751,"end":432.317,"text":"他的不管是公職人員還是黨務人員為特定的行為這個理論上也應該要被規範但我們現在反滲透法能夠用的這一個武器其實沒有很多反滲透法現在我們能夠真的來調查的我看到在這個案件比較明顯的可能就只有第五條就是遊說的部分就是說如果我今天滲透的來源我透過比如說徐春英徐春英再去接觸比如說立法委員"},{"start":433.29,"end":457.575,"text":"這個可能就構成一個遊說的行為但這個東西也不好調查因為我們在前階段我們可以知道徐春英有沒有去接觸我們這邊的人員因為遊說理論上他要登記但是在前階段比如說滲透來源跟他的關係要不是這一次有調查有微信的記錄等等之類的我們永遠不知道這一個滲透來源跟他之間到底發生什麼事情"},{"start":458.075,"end":474.735,"text":"那回到剛剛鄭麗文的例子其實也是一樣我們的滲透來源跟鄭麗文有沒有談什麼這個我們也不知道就是我們沒有辦法有一個充足的法律規範在事前來做預防所以在這邊我想問的就是在這個圖裡面滲透來源"},{"start":476.997,"end":502.526,"text":"他有接觸徐春英 這個部分是目前我們的這個檢調看起來被證明的事情然後裡面他也有提到 這個徐春英又說他本來要找國民黨的哪一個立法委員 我這邊就不點名他說他要去找 只到後來沒找而已他一旦找了他就符合後半段那他就可以用反滲透法第五條那一模一樣的情形 現在鄭麗文主席所擁有的權力絕對比徐春英要來得更大"},{"start":503.311,"end":530.099,"text":"那他現在到中國很明顯的一定會接觸到中國的黨政軍所以他跟滲透來源之間這一個紅色的箭頭有話虛謝嗎因為我們不知道他要談什麼那接下來如果他回到台灣他接觸國民黨的黨團接觸國民黨的立委然後跟他們講說好現在軍購應該要怎麼處理又或者去告訴他我們應該推什麼法案這不是沒有潛力嗎"},{"start":530.999,"end":548.246,"text":"之前我們有一群立法委員到中國去回來了以後台企連作為一個代表就出來講說他認為反滲透法需要被修正所以當我們今天這兩個框架一個是現在已經在發生的案已經發生的案件正在被調查一個就是今天都已經要發生了"},{"start":548.766,"end":574.078,"text":"那我們前面這一個的預防機制如果沒有去確立的話我們沒有辦法知道滲透來源跟這令委主席之間的關係那回過頭來就算我們看到他回來跟我們台灣的民意代表說軍購應該要怎麼做其他的這個法案應該要怎麼推就算有後面這個藍色的箭頭當前面的紅色箭頭沒有辦法被證明的時候其實反滲透法也一樣是無用無之地所以"},{"start":574.798,"end":601.361,"text":"我在這邊還是就是剛剛其實陸委會也表達了一個立場就是說我們在當然現在這個修法到現在我們連前半段我們認為沒有爭議的這個都還沒有過但後半段我們是不是應該來研擬就是要有怎樣的一個方式讓前面這個可以透明化就像我剛剛提到的如果握有一定的席次重要的這一個影響力的政黨他的主席或者副主席"},{"start":601.957,"end":614.371,"text":"他今天去跟滲透來源接觸的時候照樣也應該跟我們的軍警人員跟我們的重要的公務員一樣應該要有一個聯審會的機制不知道陸委會對於這件事情的看法是什麼"},{"start":619.682,"end":641.909,"text":"對於反滲透法我們尤其對境外敵對勢力滲透來源他來只是委託資助這些證據過去真的是比較難舉證出來所以我們在這個滲透行為這個都不太容易成立那當然違法行為是有那加上滲透行為才能在司法上構成那個要件"},{"start":642.809,"end":671.281,"text":"這個部分我們陸委會也針對過去實施以來我們找了很多在審判案子的法官還有檢察官都一起來研修未來反滲透法是不是在舉證方面能夠更快速更有具體的證據在整個他們在執法在查處當中遇到困難我們正在研究怎麼再提出一個更有實用的反滲透法"},{"start":672.001,"end":696.463,"text":"來確保國家安全各位委員補充接受中共的任何指示委託或者贊助行為當然除非公開無法查證但是身為一個政黨的代表人或是具有實質政治影響力的人士用公開的方式與中共接觸難免必須受到高強度的監督尤其是國人跟媒體"},{"start":697.324,"end":726.665,"text":"我們也希望所有這樣進行監督的人都能以國家為念過去我們曾經想做過一些修法但是只局限在立法委員的身上也已經遇到相當大的阻礙這是預防性的修法那麼如果未來或是這一次有任何不法行為明顯的發生政府就不會是預防性的修法是要災後重建的方式來重建整套強而有力的法律規範才能確保國家的安全"},{"start":727.966,"end":755.087,"text":"謝謝院長的這一個態度因為我覺得尤其比如說不管是我們的總預算不管是我們的軍購這其實都是對我們現在國家是重中之重但一直拖延到現在我們的國防也已經出現了這個空窗如果我們今天還要去看對方的臉色然後去決定我們要怎麼去構築我們的防衛系統這個真的會滑天下石打擊那當然我也是建議就是說我們在前階段我們檢驗有時候我們聯審會在檢驗的時候看的是他的可能公開的行程"},{"start":755.68,"end":784.739,"text":"他可能見了誰然後我們去告訴他風險但這個內容也可以再度加強比如說今天鄭麗文去之前其實之前就有國共論壇本來有可能發生後來變成國共論壇後來變智庫交流這個的智庫交流裡面就有提到說他們想要醫療的合作想要AI的合作想要我們防災減災系統的合作國共之間要合作這些不管是醫療還是AI還是我們的防災系統這個很多甚至跟國家機密有關"},{"start":785.74,"end":811.476,"text":"他甚至跟國人的隱私有關結果這個在前階段鋪陳的時候他就已經把這樣的一個城市交流擺在裡面那這個時候我們再假設以後就算政黨代表我們今天能夠納入到聯審會的審查我們也應該要告訴他講說如果前面已經發生這些事情你去談的時候在哪些地方有可能會觸發有哪些東西是我們國家要避免我認為這個都是重中之重"},{"start":812.176,"end":816.647,"text":"那這個因為時間的關係,我快速的想要問內政部,不好意思麻煩請內政部備選"},{"start":827.521,"end":848.92,"text":"部長好 那我這邊快速的想要詢問災害協作中心目前就是說我們要成立災害協作中心的機制前陣子因為花蓮發生了光復鄉的事件我們有很多的志工們全國性的到那一邊因為如果按照本來的志願服務法志願服務法必須主管監管社會服務部他也不符合裡面的定義"},{"start":849.6,"end":868.579,"text":"但是在志願服務法裡面呢這邊有包含民防啊、疫警啊什麼等等之類的這個又跟內政部有關那我們對於這種臨時的但是其實又需要指揮的我們目前來講我們現在有防災室我們有本來之前講過的應變中隊T3等等之類我們應該要怎麼去建立"},{"start":869.019,"end":883.91,"text":"那這個災害協作中心這個概念我們如果要把它放到整個我們的防災系統裡面我們對於臨時來的志工我們對於替代役對於疫警疫消現在整個內政部規劃的大方向大概做到什麼樣的程度"},{"start":884.69,"end":898.314,"text":"謝謝委員的關心有關於災害防救法防災協作中心的部分現在已經抱怨來審查也就是說未來在鄉鎮區公所的層級裡面的防災協作中心會有主任秘書或是秘書是屬於文官層級的來擔任災防時候的指揮官"},{"start":901.295,"end":919.657,"text":"如果說包括替代役或是其他的志工團體的話未來可以附在這些防災指揮中心裡面一起做防災協作的工作但是他們的工作內容大概不涉及最緊急的救援跟搜救的工作是後續的譬如說收容安置撤離等等這些"},{"start":920.938,"end":939.224,"text":"目前的規劃是這樣的方向那因為我現在看到各地民防的工作越來越強調資安那我相信資安當然本來是肅發部主責但是這一個方面跟內政部民防整個系統訓練的合作上要怎麼把資安加進去這個等到我到內政委員會的時候我再來做深度的詢問沒有問題 我們未來努力好 謝謝部長 謝謝院長謝謝沈伯陽委員質詢 謝謝卓院長跟相關部長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:00:46.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:00:46.369000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:00:46.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:00:47.730000+08:00","text":"一開始有請院長跟陸委會，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-07T09:00:47.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:00:48.490000+08:00","text":"麻煩請卓院長、陸委會備詢。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-07T09:00:48.490000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-07T09:01:08.745500+08:00","text":"沈委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:01:08.745500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-07T09:01:29.001000+08:00","text":"院長早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:01:29.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:01:51.555000+08:00","text":"一開始開宗明義當然還是要講一下總預算，在野黨提到有可能有機會審查，但是我們也還不知道什麼時候開始，畢竟從去年8月法定的日期到10月被提出覆議，一直到現在已經非常多天了，有預算才有辦法做事。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:01:53.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:02:17.736000+08:00","text":"軍購有幸在上個禮拜已經開始被討論，被討論之後現在比較麻煩的地方就是原定這一個禮拜要開始協商軍購，結果現在國民黨黨團提出要延到4月15號，也就是習鄭會之後，當然我覺得這個會有點瓜田李下的問題。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:02:17.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:02:33.066000+08:00","text":"如果我們要等到鄭麗文主席跟習近平會面之後，才可以討論軍購的項目，無疑不就是在等著中國的首肯，你才可以來討論軍購的內容。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:02:33.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:02:57.002000+08:00","text":"我今天想要聚焦在看到報載鄭麗文今天早上要出發，所以我第一個想問的事情是，目前來講，我們可以看到裡面有提到，這個是對方的邀請，現在看起來內容、新聞安排都是由北京來規劃跟主導。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:02:57.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:03:17.110000+08:00","text":"在訪期間一定需要一個法律的框架，我認為不管習鄭會有發生還是沒有發生，最後他們見面之後，一定是希望再度提出原來的法律框架，即兩岸同屬一中、堅決反對臺獨，這個一定是他們要的法律框架。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:03:17.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:03:31.799000+08:00","text":"但我現在在意的是中間的細節，因為一直以來公務人員一旦要到中國都要經過陸委會及內政部聯審會同意，行程要公開透明才能夠過去。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:03:32.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:03:40.385000+08:00","text":"我在前兩年提出國安法修正，認為立法委員如果去……立法委員可以去嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:03:40.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:03:49.848000+08:00","text":"可以，但是他一旦去了，他的行程也一樣要公開，需要經過聯審會，讓國人知道到底去談了什麼。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:03:50.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:04:02.614000+08:00","text":"現在這個法案已經被擋了八百多次，院版現在也提出來了，不管是我提的版本還是院版提的版本，其實並沒有討論政黨的主席去的話，該怎麼辦？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:04:05.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:04:29.522000+08:00","text":"理論上，一個政黨的主席，尤其是在國會握有重要席次的主席，他可以跟黨團一起開會、他可以告訴他的不分區立委，有什麼事情是他在意的，但是政黨主席一直以來並沒有在我們的法律框架之內，所以就變成他說去就去，說回就回，不在我們的法律框架之內。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:04:30.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:04:49.981000+08:00","text":"第一個、我想問一下陸委會，我知道陸委會的能量從前年開始被砍預算，本來就沒有太大的執法能量，也只是被動的，比如公務人員要過去、回來要回報都得上去系統填與經過聯審會等各式各樣的程序。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:04:50.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:04:56.586000+08:00","text":"現在政黨主席不在我們的規範範圍之內，我們要怎麼知道他去了到底談了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:04:56.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:05:00.690000+08:00","text":"難道就只能根據他們現在新聞的報導、有跟去的媒體？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:05:00.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:05:04.213000+08:00","text":"媒體還是被控制的，所以我們陸委會要怎麼去控管這件事情？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-04-07T09:05:07.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:06:06.288000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝沈委員關注這個問題，對於政黨的代理人或是有真正政治影響力的人赴陸要不要管制，我們曾經有很多討論，包括我們這次送來的行政院版，第一次把立法委員送來這邊做規範，把他放在特定人員來審查，以及我們也在這次的修法裡面，有把所有的民選公職人員赴陸接觸黨、政、軍都必須公開揭露，這個都是過去所沒有的，也是要來確保有關我們的公務人員跟公職人員赴陸，經過透明化來防範，一方面是提醒、對內提醒，你可能會有被滲透的風險；二方面就是讓大家都知道我們的公職人員到中國大陸去幹什麼，這個也是希望達成一個民主防衛機制。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-04-07T09:06:07.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:06:33.668000+08:00","text":"我們要強調剛剛委員提的這個方向也是我們本來要立法，但是怕說規範的實在……因為我們臺灣的政黨很多，什麼是有政治影響力的這些人物或是政黨代理人，這方面我們曾經有一度想要這麼做，但是後來考慮規範太多，所以想說下一次再提出來，我們很支持委員的提法。","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:06:34.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:07:08.152000+08:00","text":"對，因為我的建議就是說，確實政黨是多，所以或許是對於有沒有在國會握有一定席次的政黨納入規範，這樣的話也比較符合比例原則，我會問這個問題還有另外一個理由就是因為最近爆發徐春鶯的案件，徐春鶯的案件很特別，以往我們所關注的是，比如中國把手伸到我們的立法院或者中國把手伸到我們的公務機關，這是不分政黨的，大家都有可能被滲透，被滲透的其實都是被害者。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:07:08.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:07:12.996000+08:00","text":"所以當民眾黨發生這種事情的時候，對我來講，我覺得民眾黨也是受害者，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:07:12.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:08:23.555000+08:00","text":"就是它畢竟被滲透，當然對於滲透它怎麼處理是民眾黨黨內的家務事，但我們現在看到的就是，因為剛剛講的是國民黨，民眾黨一樣也是在國會握有重要的席次，如果中國今天是把手伸到政黨內部的運作，然後政黨內部再去要求不管是他的公職人員還是黨務人員為特定的行為，這個理論上也應該要被規範，但我們現在反滲透法能夠用的武器其實沒有很多，反滲透法我們現在能夠真的來調查的，我看到在這個案件比較明顯的可能就只有第五條遊說的部分，就是說，如果我今天滲透的來源透過比如徐春鶯，徐春鶯再去接觸比如立法委員，這個可能就構成一個遊說的行為，但這個東西也不好調查，因為我們在前階段可以知道徐春鶯有沒有去接觸我們這邊的人員，因為遊說在理論上他要登記，但是在前階段比如滲透來源跟他的關係，要不是這一次有調查、有微信的紀錄等等之類的，我們永遠不知道這一個滲透來源跟他之間到底發生什麼事情。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:08:24.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:08:30.783000+08:00","text":"回到剛剛鄭麗文的例子其實也是一樣，我們的滲透來源跟鄭麗文有沒有談什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:08:30.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:09:02.744000+08:00","text":"這個我們也不知道，就是我們沒有辦法有一個充足的法律規範在事前來做預防，所以在這邊我想問的就是，在這個圖裡面，滲透來源他有接觸徐春鶯，這個部分是目前我們的檢調看起來有被證明的事情，裡面他也有提到，徐春鶯又說，他本來要找國民黨的哪一個立法委員，我這邊就不點名，他說他要去找，只是他後來沒找而已，他一旦找了，他就符合後半段，就可以用反滲透法第五條。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:09:02.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:09:19.894000+08:00","text":"一模一樣的情形，現在鄭麗文主席所握有的權力，絕對比徐春鶯要來得更大，他現在到中國很明顯的一定會接觸到中國的黨政軍，所以他跟滲透來源之間這一個紅色的箭頭，我畫虛線，因為我們不知道他要談什麼。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:09:20.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:09:35.719000+08:00","text":"接下來，如果他回到臺灣，他接觸國民黨的黨團、接觸國民黨的立委，然後跟他們講說：好，現在軍購應該要怎麼處理，又或者去告訴他，我們應該推什麼法案，這不是沒有前例。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:09:36.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:09:54.226000+08:00","text":"之前我們有一群立法委員到中國去，回來了以後，臺企聯作為一個代表就出來講說，他認為反滲透法需要被修正，所以當我們今天這兩個框架：一個是現在已經發生的案件正在被調查；一個是今天都已經要發生了。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:09:54.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:10:02.910000+08:00","text":"如果我們前面這一個預防機制沒有確立的話，那我們沒有辦法知道滲透來源跟鄭麗文主席之間的關係。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:10:03.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:10:19.197000+08:00","text":"回過頭來，就算我們看到他回來跟臺灣的民意代表說軍購應該要怎麼做、其他法案應該要怎麼推，就算有後面這個藍色的箭頭，當前面的紅色箭頭沒有辦法被證明的時候，其實反滲透法也一樣無用武之地。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:10:22.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:10:36.552000+08:00","text":"其實剛剛陸委會也表達了立場，當然現在修法連前半段我們認為沒有爭議的都還沒有過，但後半段我們是不是應該來研擬要有怎樣的方式讓前面這個可以透明化？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:10:36.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:11:00.371000+08:00","text":"就像我剛剛提到的，如果握有一定席次、具重要影響力的政黨，其主席或副主席去跟滲透來源接觸的時候，照樣也應該跟我們的軍警人員、重要公務員一樣，要有一個聯審會的機制，不知道陸委會對於這件事情的看法是什麼？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-04-07T09:11:05.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:11:27.889000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈委員對於反滲透法的關心，尤其對境外敵對勢力、滲透來源的指示、委託、資助相關證據，過去真的比較難舉證出來，所以滲透行為就不太容易成立，當然違法行為是有，但加上滲透行為才能在司法上構成那個要件。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2026-04-07T09:11:28.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:11:58.782000+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，陸委會也針對過去實施以來的情形，我們找了很多審判案子的法官及檢察官一起來研修未來反滲透法在舉證方面是不是能夠有更快速、更具體的證據，以及如何解決他們在執法、在查處當中遇到的困難，我們正在研究如何再提出一個更實用的反滲透法，來確保國家安全。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:11:58.782000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-07T09:12:00.744000+08:00","text":"對，這個就是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-07T09:12:00.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:12:27.227000+08:00","text":"跟委員補充，接受中共的任何指示、委託或者贊助行為，當然除非公開而無法查證，但是身為一個政黨的代表人或是具有實質政治影響力的人士，用公開的方式與中共接觸，難免必須受到高強度的監督，尤其是國人跟媒體，我們也希望所有這樣進行監督的人，都能以國家為念。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-07T09:12:28.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:12:52.645000+08:00","text":"過去我們曾經想做一些修法，但是只侷限在立法委員的身上就已經遇到相當大的阻礙，這是預防性的修法，如果未來或是這一次有任何不法行為明顯的發生，政府就不會是預防性的修法，而是要以災後重建的方式來重建整套強而有力的法律規範，這樣才能確保國家的安全。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:12:53.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:13:13.101000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長的這一個態度，我覺得尤其不管是我們的總預算或是我們的軍購，其實現在對我們國家而言都是重中之重，但一直拖延到現在，我們的國防也已經出現了空窗，如果我們今天還要去看對方的臉色，然後去決定我們要怎麼去構築我們的防衛系統，這個真的會滑天下之大稽。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:13:14.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:13:30.266000+08:00","text":"當然我也建議針對我們前階段的檢驗，有時候聯審會在檢驗的時候，可能看的是他公開的行程，他可能見了誰，然後我們去告訴他風險，但這個內容也可以再度加強，比如鄭麗文去之前，其實之前就有國共論壇嘛！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:13:30.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:14:17.456000+08:00","text":"本來有可能是發聲，後來變成國共論壇、後來變智庫交流，在這個智庫交流裡面就有提到他們想要醫療的合作、想要AI的合作、想要我們防災減災系統的合作，國共之間要合作這些，不管是醫療、AI還是我們的防災系統，其實很多都跟國家機密有關，甚至跟國人的隱私有關，結果這個在前階段舖陳的時候，他就已經把這樣的城市交流擺在裡面，假設以後就算政黨代表能夠納入到聯審會的審查，我們也應該要告訴他如果前面已經發生這些事情，你去談的時候，在哪些地方有可能會觸法、有哪些東西是我們國家要避免的，我認為這個都是重中之重。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:14:19.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:14:22.326000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係，我想要快速的問內政部，不好意思。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-07T09:14:22.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:14:22.647000+08:00","text":"麻煩請內政部備詢。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-07T09:14:22.647000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-07T09:14:33.521000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:14:33.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:14:33.781000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:14:34.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:15:02.707000+08:00","text":"我想要快速的詢問關於災害協作中心的問題，目前我們要成立災害協作中心的機制，前陣子因為花蓮發生光復鄉的事件，全國有很多志工到那邊去，如果按照本來志願服務法的規定，畢竟志願服務法的主管機關是衛福部，它也不符合裡面的定義，但是志願服務法的規範有包含民防、義警等等之類的，這個又跟內政部有關。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:15:04.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:15:14.559000+08:00","text":"對於這種臨時但是其實又需要指揮的，目前來講我們有防災士、有本來之前講過的應變中隊（T-CERT）等等之類的，我們應該要怎麼去建立？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:15:15.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:15:29.890000+08:00","text":"這個災害協作中心的概念如果要放到整個防災系統裡面，對於臨時來的志工、對於替代役、對於義警警消，現在整個內政部規劃的大方向大概做到什麼樣的程度了？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-07T09:15:30.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:15:31.170000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的關心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-07T09:15:31.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:15:44.294000+08:00","text":"有關於災害防救法防災協作中心的部分，現在已經報院審查，也就是說，未來在鄉鎮區公所的層級裡面，防災協作中心會有主任秘書或秘書等屬於文官層級的來擔任災防時候的指揮官。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-07T09:15:47.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:16:05.637000+08:00","text":"如果是包括替代役或是其他志工團體的話，未來可以附在這些防災指揮中心裡面，一起做防災協作的工作，但是他們的工作內容大概不涉及最緊急的救援跟搜救的工作，而是後續的，譬如收容、安置、撤離等等這些。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-07T09:16:06.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:16:08.339000+08:00","text":"目前的規劃是這樣的方向。好。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:16:09.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:16:14.700000+08:00","text":"我現在看到各地民防的工作越來越強調資安，我相信資安當然本來是數發部主責……對。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:16:14.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:16:19.362000+08:00","text":"但是這個方面跟內政部民防整個系統訓練的合作上，要怎麼把資安加進去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:16:20.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:16:22.963000+08:00","text":"這個問題等到我到內政委員會的時候再來做深度的詢問。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-07T09:16:22.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:16:23.443000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，我們會來努力。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"沈委員伯洋","start":"2026-04-07T09:16:23.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:16:23.883000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-07T09:16:23.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:16:23.883000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-07T09:16:23.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-07T09:16:25.224000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈伯洋委員質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長備詢。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-07T09:16:25.724000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-07T09:16:34.581143+08:00","text":"報告院會，在議場2樓旁聽的是來自臺北市大安高工的同學們，我們掌聲歡迎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-07T09:16:34.881143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-07T09:16:40.309714+08:00","text":"接下來請謝龍介委員質詢，鄭正鈐委員請準備。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}