{"error":false,"id":["168213"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168213,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168213","日期":"2026-04-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-08T09:29:25+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-08T09:40:52+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:27","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0d6f67de6a46e070301ae777e4c72867e413b5cd1255e9444f0c0b32b082070385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:29:25 - 09:40:52","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部就「穩定供給與減塑並進：因應國際原物料波動之原物料穩定供應及我國減塑治理進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n一、審查「廢棄物清理法條文修正草案」9案：\n（一）委員馬文君等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員顏寬恒等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林淑芬等22人擬具「廢棄物清理法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張宏陸等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員許智傑等29人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「資源回收再利用法修正草案」2案：\n（一）委員許智傑等28人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n（二）委員盧縣一等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及法律案綜合詢答，法律案僅詢答】\n【4月8日及9日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":5.14409375,"end":5.414093750000001,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":6.578468750000001,"end":7.574093750000001,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳副署長國軒","start":8.51909375,"end":8.535968750000002,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.29534375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":12.231593750000002,"end":12.99096875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":12.99096875,"end":22.81221875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":13.007843750000003,"end":13.09221875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":23.41971875,"end":35.83971875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":36.143468750000004,"end":48.20909375,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":48.360968750000005,"end":50.976593750000006,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":51.330968750000004,"end":66.61971875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":66.85596875,"end":104.26784375000001,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":103.22159375000001,"end":106.73159375,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":107.18721875,"end":129.04034375,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":129.49596875,"end":140.19471875000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":140.49846875,"end":141.35909375,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":141.64596875,"end":142.54034375,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":142.81034375000002,"end":145.54409375,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":145.59471875,"end":147.04596875000001,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":147.36659375000002,"end":149.89784375000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":149.93159375000002,"end":182.44971875000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":182.77034375000002,"end":220.62096875,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":219.67596875,"end":230.07096875000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":230.15534375000001,"end":232.14659375000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳副署長國軒","start":230.32409375,"end":230.45909375000002,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":232.34909375,"end":244.85346875000002,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":245.00534375,"end":266.11596875000004,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":267.22971875,"end":269.13659375000003,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":269.55846875000003,"end":287.29409375,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":287.29409375,"end":310.02471875000003,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":310.71659375,"end":312.48846875000004,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":312.70784375,"end":337.27784375000005,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":337.71659375,"end":355.18221875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":355.28346875,"end":356.16096875,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":356.16096875,"end":366.50534375,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":367.01159375000003,"end":377.52471875000003,"speaker_score":0.971},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":377.82846875,"end":401.33534375000005,"speaker_score":0.951},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員月琴","start":401.3353437500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今天我覺得把這個專題排進雙法來做詢問我認為事實上非常有必要因為這次國際局勢的一波動大家看到的是不只是我們的塑膠袋變貴而是臺灣的市場零售對一次性的一個塑膠的依賴事實上是非常的深習近平這次要求我們要先穩原物料 穩供應鏈"},{"start":38.263,"end":66,"text":"也特別的要求醫材原料事實上是不能出問題這個方向我非常的支持也因為民生跟醫療一定要先穩住那我要請教部長的是因為因我們國際情勢的一個變動現在這些代代相傳的做法還是在示範 示範鼓勵的性質比較多所以部長你認為這樣的強度真的足以打破我們現在這個高度依賴一次性塑膠的系統嗎"},{"start":67.98,"end":93.366,"text":"其實這個有這個念頭因為我們在建國化市已經試驗成功了所以這次是完全升級擴大辦理所以包含了像那天上禮拜我們在建國化市就有一個第一銀行他們就主動捐了一萬六千個二手袋來那我們就開始在做分配所以建國化市現在如果去看的話當有大量的這種二手袋來說他們就可以選擇不用塑膠袋所以我們認為這是成功的而且跟委員報告"},{"start":94.266,"end":119.756,"text":"有些縣市這個東西以前有做過只是沒有那麼全面那我們會再發動各個縣市一起來推動所以這個已經不是一個這種示範型的是一個全面型的我希望環境部把這次的事件當成一個警訊因為讓台灣的檢縮不是靠我們的景氣的平穩的時候的一個宣導而事實上是即使碰到國際風險的時候還是有能力撐住的那個治理系統我覺得這"},{"start":121.044,"end":138.805,"text":"你們一定要去做因為否則像這次來的時候那你們怎麼去因應因為如果大家相傳如果做的事實上是只是那個量體事實上是不夠的話基本上你還是沒有辦法真正解決問題所以部長我當然先肯定你願意面對政策執行的落差從過去的單純我們的純"},{"start":141.707,"end":162.583,"text":"近現用那現在調整成精準減碩跟那個循環經濟這個方向我支持可是我現在擔心的是什麼外界會不會把這個精準減碩解讀成方向有了可是真正執行的時候只剩下少數的示範少數的場域小範圍的KPI最後社會看不到進度的時候也沒辦法監督所以我要來問部長說"},{"start":164.645,"end":182.124,"text":"環境部接下來會不會訂定這六個品項因為你從四個品項變成六個那你會不會訂這個六個品項的一個基準量跟年度的減量值以及六大優先推動場域的分工跟進度是什麼"},{"start":183.125,"end":210.904,"text":"包委員這個其實齁因為這個每一個都涉及到每一個營業場所他的這個使用所以如何以我們的經驗如何去說服每一個業者有這個環保的理念這個比一切都重要所以像我們在去年1月1號推動旅宿業檢授六小品的時候我們就發現大的都沒有問題但是就是有一些會反彈所以我們認為在訂定這個限制之前我們要一定要完整的教育清楚讓他們知道而且不要造成他們經營上的負擔有一點過渡期"},{"start":212.685,"end":229.934,"text":"所以就我們的認知來說的話一定要把它變成是一個規範就像歐盟一樣不用講大家都知道那這個就會有機會成功部長我剛剛問齊成你的進度怎麼因為如果沒有這些中繼的KPI的話你到了2030年2035年目標就還是容易停留在懸殖而已"},{"start":230.394,"end":244.15,"text":"所以為什麼剛剛問你說要講清楚來說明白了另外針對於電商跟我們的零售通路跟品牌商環境部下一步會不會建立年度的揭露跟那個分級的評比"},{"start":245.271,"end":265.892,"text":"在我們這個資源循環推動法裡面我們要把綠色設計放進去那近期我們也在跟那個金管會在討論這個議題就是說循環綠這種循環綠要把它寫進去它的永續報告裡面要把它變成一個強制性的所以這個就會造成說一個更大質變不然的話我們現在推的東西對它來說沒有任何法規可以去限制它"},{"start":267.287,"end":287.046,"text":"而且既然你的零售商品的包裝也已經進入到你的政策的重點了所以我要追問2025年到2030年我們的零售商品的包裝循環永續指引未來會不會有更明確的法制化的啟程而不是永遠停留在指引而且你會如何跟經濟部合作"},{"start":287.926,"end":314.314,"text":"這個部分其實是一定要定義一個規範我們會從這個他如果要用塑膠他的這個再生的循環的力量要定到一個比例來做那第二個是我們因為他有定這個比例我們會定義他是不是綠色的商品所以我們兩條用商業機制的手段來逼迫他們大家鼓勵大家往這個地方邁進那這個部分一定會定出相關因的指標因為還是期待你們不要"},{"start":314.79,"end":324.59,"text":"因為我們問題來的時候你前面的這些做的做法到底能不能去因應真的問題能夠解決問題所以部長再來想從我們的環境治理的觀點來看臺灣檢縮最有意義的指標"},{"start":327.369,"end":354.759,"text":"我認為不應該只是剩下少用了幾個那個塑膠袋所以要問部長是說環境部現在最核心的是減塑指標到底是後端最是後端的一次性的石化塑膠產品的總量下降還是源頭的原生塑膠的使用量下降包含產能管你的那個產能的控管以及透過再生料的一個使用"},{"start":355.479,"end":377.161,"text":"到底是哪一個其實全世界我們也比較了全世界減塑的時程都是第一個一次性的石化塑膠的產品總量那像我們完全這個部分是跟歐盟去做對齊的可是相較於未定案的那個塑膠公約喊出來我們就是未來2040年的減量75%不然你覺得現有的目標值會不會太低如何估算出來"},{"start":378.144,"end":401.137,"text":"因為這個是末端 塑膠公約他訂的是末端的原生塑膠的使用量那我們上面第一次性的是各個國家或是整個歐盟訂出來的塑膠的用量這兩個意涵不大一樣 但是是有點共通性那我們會認為是說 我必須說原生的塑膠使用量下降這是必然的 必須的 但是我們要有一定的方法跟做法才能達到"},{"start":401.477,"end":426.028,"text":"可是民間團體都一直在提醒就是說如果上游的石化產能持續擴張原生塑膠持續便宜的話那民眾再努力少拿一個袋子再努力回收都可能被新增的那個產量來抵銷所以我還是要直接問部長說如果一次性的用品有減量可是但是原生塑膠產能的那個控管沒有下降環境部認為這樣是成功嗎"},{"start":427.529,"end":440.964,"text":"基本上還是要從一次性的就原生性的這個塑膠的產量不過也跟委員報告因為我們臺灣其實有些的原生塑膠已經不在臺灣產了有些是靠進口有些是別的地方傾銷過來所以這個已經不是單純的環保問題是一個經濟的問題這個我們也必須去重視所以我希望部長在會後提供我"},{"start":448.732,"end":463.198,"text":"就各自的那個基準年還有年度的KPI和品項的一個範圍和我們公開揭露的方式這個要麻煩部長這邊好沒問題謝謝部長接下來我們請經濟部代表那個產發署的副署長陳副署長來請陳副署長"},{"start":467.762,"end":496.719,"text":"副總統已經公開要求我們的政府推動循環經濟跟產業的國際化打造一個綠色的台灣品牌行政院也把綠色成長跟淨零轉型列為重要的施政方向這個大方向我認為經濟部大家一定不能缺席所以這次的應急穩工的我能理解可是我想問的是經濟部在中長期上不會只剩下說缺貨就增產的這一套解法吧"},{"start":497.484,"end":513.099,"text":"不會這個真的是一個短期的一個因應措施那長期的話我們在循環經濟從源頭開始來做綠色設計這個是我們在可是如果上游的乙烯產能還是在擴張甚至新"},{"start":513.779,"end":542.465,"text":"至輕的這種投資案還沒有用在我們的減塑循環經濟碳排跟市場需求一起檢驗的話那臺灣很容易就一邊談源頭減塑一邊又讓塑膠上源的那個上游的原物料繼續往上加所以我覺得這個提醒我不會把它簡化成反對產業可是我認為經濟部有責任回答說未來國營事業跟石化投資的決策會不會納入減塑循環材料跟市場需求跟"},{"start":543.045,"end":563.767,"text":"碳排風險的整合評估我想這個長期的目標應該是我們一定會去做一個遵循的可是我最在意的是石化投資決策在產能評估是否有盤點必要的物質還有我們像譬如衣材基礎建設等用途明確替代性成本比較高的項目有嗎"},{"start":565.573,"end":593.779,"text":"這個必須要做一個長期的研究跟一個規劃那現在有在處理嗎這一塊的話我是不是容我在那個會後再補充資料我覺得要真的要跟環境部一次性那個塑膠偵測那個減量來聯動 否則這中間的分配比例分配是什麼 石化原料供應順序又是什麼又是什麼 如果副董現在沒辦法回答 以便在會後給我一些相關的"},{"start":595.803,"end":599.976,"text":"所以副長我緊接著就要問 經濟部在檢措這些事情上"},{"start":601.998,"end":628.945,"text":"現在到底有沒有自己的KPI而不是配合環境部委因為我看到經濟部不是完全沒有做像2025的優勢優良市場的那個平和已經把推動市場市集減少使用塑膠袋列進了我們的政策配合的項目裡面所以經濟部到底自己有沒有一套自己的那個可追蹤可年度追蹤的減碩的KPI以及年度的揭露方式"},{"start":629.765,"end":641.174,"text":"我想說在商業的話不管是商圈市場這一塊的檢索我們這一定會來做一個加強的一個廣宣跟一個推廣這個我們會去來做一個推動"},{"start":642.472,"end":661.508,"text":"因為如果經濟部沒有自己的KPI的話那檢碩就很容易永遠停留在環境部在管末端然後管不到前端那經濟部只做一些輔導我覺得這不太恰當所以我覺得經濟部應該更往前一步把檢碩正式變成商業服務跟產業治理的一部分"},{"start":662.655,"end":687.072,"text":"這我們來努力所以最後我想彭部長在這邊麻煩環境部接下來一個月內給我這些好相關的資料那經濟部也是包含剛剛副組長提的好麻煩在一個月內兩個部會兩個都給我相關資料可以嗎部長可以好謝謝好謝謝林耀勳召委發言下一位"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:31.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:29:32.287000+08:00","text":"麻煩請彭部長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:32.287000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:29:35.227500+08:00","text":"請彭部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:35.227500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:29:38.168000+08:00","text":"召委早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:38.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:29:38.528000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:29:39.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:12.709000+08:00","text":"事實上，今天本會把這個專題和雙法排進來進行詢答，我認為非常有必要，因應這次國際局勢的波動，大家看到的不只是塑膠袋變貴，還有臺灣零售市場對一次性塑膠的依賴是非常的深，行政院這次要求要先穩定原物料供應鏈，也特別要求醫材原料原則上不能出問題，這個方向我非常支持，因為民生跟醫療需求一定要先穩住。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:13.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:30:31+08:00","text":"在此我想請教部長，因應國際情勢的變動，現在這些「袋袋箱傳」的做法還是在示範、試辦、鼓勵的性質比較多，部長認為這樣的強度真的足以打破現在這個高度依賴一次性塑膠的系統嗎？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:30:32.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:31:09.090000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實有這個念頭是因為我們在建國花市已經試驗成功，所以這次是完全升級擴大辦理，包含上禮拜在建國花市，第一銀行就主動捐了1萬6,000個二手袋，我們也著手開始分配，所以現在到建國花市去看，當有大量二手袋可以使用時，民眾就可以選擇不用塑膠袋，我們認為這樣的推動是成功的，而且跟委員報告，這些以前有些縣市也做過，只不過沒有那麼全面，我們會再發動各縣市一起推動，所以這個已經不是示範型，而是全面型的推動。","quality":0.801},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:31:09.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:31:31.130000+08:00","text":"我希望環境部把這次的事件當成一個警訊，因為讓臺灣減塑，不能只靠景氣平穩時的宣導，而是即使在碰到國際風險的時候，還是有能力撐住的治理系統，我覺得這部分你們一定要去做，否則像這次的事件，你們要怎麼去因應？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:31:32.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:32:26.844000+08:00","text":"以目前「袋袋箱傳」做的那個量體，事實上是不夠的，基本上，還是沒有辦法真正解決問題，我當然肯定你們願意面對政策執行的落差，從過去單純的純禁限用，到現在調整成精準減塑跟循環經濟，這個方向我支持，可是我現在擔心的是，外界會不會把這個精準減塑解讀成方向有了，可是到真正執行的時候，卻只剩下少數的示範、少數的場域及小範圍的KPI，最後社會看不到進度，也沒有辦法監督，所以我要請問部長，因為已經從4個品項變成6個品項，接下來環境部會不會訂定這6個品項的基準量和年度減量值，以及六大優先推動場域的分工和進度？","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:32:28.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:04.749000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為這涉及到每一個營業場所的使用，以我們的經驗，如何說服每一個業者都有環保理念比一切都重要，所以像去年1月1號我們推動旅宿業減塑6小品的時候，就發現大的都沒有問題，但是就是有一些會反彈，所以我們認為在訂定限制之前，一定要有完整、清楚的教育讓他們知道，而且不要造成他們經營上的負擔，有一個過渡期，所以就我們的認知來說，一定要把它變成是一個規範，就像歐盟一樣，不用講大家都知道，那就會有機會成功。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:05.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:07.970000+08:00","text":"部長，我剛剛問到期程，就是你們的進度怎麼樣？","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:08.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:18.678000+08:00","text":"如果沒有這些中繼的KPI，到了2030年、2035年的目標，就還是容易只停留在宣示而已，所以為什麼我剛剛才跟你說要講清楚、說明白。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:19.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:29.130000+08:00","text":"另外，針對電商、零售通路跟品牌商，環境部下一步會不會建立年度的揭露跟分級評比？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:30.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:33:50.732000+08:00","text":"在我們的資源循環推動法裡面，我們要把綠色設計放進去，近期我們也跟金管會討論這個議題，就是把循環率寫進永續報告裡，把它變成是一個強制性的，這就會造成一個更大的質變，不然我們現在推的東西，對他們來說並沒有任何法規可以限制。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:33:52.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:12.026000+08:00","text":"既然零售商的商品包裝也已經進入到你們政策的重點，所以我要追問，2025年到2030年，零售商品包裝循環永續指引未來會不會有更明確的法制化期程，而不是永遠停留在指引，而且你們要如何跟經濟部合作？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:12.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:25.970000+08:00","text":"這個部分其實是一定要建立一個規範，如果要用塑膠，那它的再生循環率要訂出一個比例；第二，因為有訂這個比例，我們會定義它是不是綠色商品。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:26.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:36.753000+08:00","text":"我們用這兩條商業機制的手段來逼迫、鼓勵大家往這個地方邁進，這個部分一定會訂出相關指標。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:38.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:34:45.722000+08:00","text":"好，還是期待你們在問題來的時候，要了解你們前面的這一些做法，到底能不能因應、解決問題。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:34:46.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:13.056000+08:00","text":"再者，從環境治理的觀點來看，臺灣減塑最有意義的指標，我認為不應該只是剩下少用了幾個塑膠袋，所以要問部長的是，環境部現在最核心的是減塑指標，到底是後端一次性石化塑膠產品的總量下降，還是源頭的原生塑膠使用量下降？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:13.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:22.041000+08:00","text":"包括產能的控管以及透過再生料的使用，到底是哪一個？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:22.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:31.290000+08:00","text":"其實我們也比較了全世界減塑的時程，都是第一個，即一次性石化塑膠產品的總量，這個部分我們完全是跟歐盟對齊的。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:32.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:41.261000+08:00","text":"可是相較於未定案的塑膠公約喊出我們未來2040年就是要減量75%，部長覺得現有的目標值會不會太低？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:41.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:42.161000+08:00","text":"如何估算出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:43.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:35:57.732000+08:00","text":"因為塑膠公約定的是末端的原生塑膠使用量，而我們上面一次性的是各個國家或是整個歐盟定出來的塑膠用量，這兩個意涵不大一樣，但是有一點共通性。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:35:59.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:06.117000+08:00","text":"我必須說原生的塑膠使用量下降是必然的、必須的，但是我們要有一定的方法跟做法才能達到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:06.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:31.028000+08:00","text":"可是民間團體都一直在提醒，如果上游的石化產能持續擴張，原生塑膠持續便宜的話，民眾再努力少拿一個袋子、再努力回收，都可能被新增的產量抵銷，所以我還是要直接問部長，如果一次性的用品有減量，但是原生塑膠產能的控管沒有下降，環境部認為這樣是成功的嗎？","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:32.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:36.473000+08:00","text":"基本上還是要從一次性、原生性的塑膠產量來做。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:36.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:36:45.263000+08:00","text":"不過也跟委員報告，因為我們有些原生塑膠其實已經不在臺灣產了，有些是靠進口的，有些是別的地方傾銷過來的，所以這個已經不是單純的環保問題，而是一個經濟的問題，這個我們也必須去重視。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:36:45.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:02.296000+08:00","text":"等會我也會問經濟部，希望部長在會後提供我各自的基準年，還有年度的KPI和品項的範圍，和我們公開揭露的方式，這個要麻煩部長這邊。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:02.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:03.536000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:03.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:04.036000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:04.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:08.038000+08:00","text":"接下來我們請經濟部的代表，產發署的陳副署長。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:08.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:08.198000+08:00","text":"請陳副署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:12.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:20.807000+08:00","text":"副署長，總統已經公開要求我們政府推動循環經濟跟產業的國際化，打造一個綠色的臺灣品牌。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:21.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:30.252000+08:00","text":"行政院也把綠色成長跟淨零轉型列為重要的施政方向，面對這個大方向，我認為經濟部一定不能缺席。了解。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:31.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:41.699000+08:00","text":"這次應急穩工的政策我能理解，可是我想問經濟部在中長期上不會只剩下缺貨就增產的這一套解法吧？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:42.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:37:52.854000+08:00","text":"不會，這真的是一個短期的因應措施，長期的話，我們的循環經濟是從源頭開始做綠色設計，這個是我們在輔導業者的。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:37:53.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:29.667000+08:00","text":"可是如果上游的乙烯產能還是在擴張，甚至新四輕的這種投資案還沒有用減塑、循環經濟、碳排跟市場需求一起檢驗的話，那臺灣就很容易成為一邊談源頭減塑，一邊又讓塑膠上游的原物料繼續往上加，所以對於這個提醒，我不會把它簡化成反對產業，可是我認為經濟部有責任回答，未來國營事業跟石化投資的決策，會不會納入減塑循環材料跟市場需求跟碳排風險的整合評估？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:30.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:35.213000+08:00","text":"我想長期的目標我們應該是一定會去遵循的。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:36.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:48.767000+08:00","text":"可是我最在意的是，石化投資決策在產能評估上是否有盤點必要的物質，比如像醫材、基礎建設等用途明確、替代性成本比較高的項目，有嗎？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:50.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:53.854000+08:00","text":"這必須要做一個長期的研究跟規劃。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:53.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:38:56.494000+08:00","text":"對，那現在有在處理嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T09:38:56.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:00.875000+08:00","text":"這一塊是不是容我會後再補充資料？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:01.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:11.817000+08:00","text":"好，我覺得真的要跟環境部一次性塑膠減量的政策連動，否則這中間的比例分配是什麼？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:11.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:14.238000+08:00","text":"石化原料的供應順序又是什麼？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:15.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:18.759000+08:00","text":"如果副署長現在沒辦法回答，一併在會後給我一些相關的資料。是。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:21.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:30.399000+08:00","text":"副署長，緊接著我就要問，經濟部在減塑這件事情上，現在到底有沒有自己的KPI，而不是配合環境部？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:30.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:39:53.925000+08:00","text":"因為我看到經濟部不是完全沒有做，像2025優良市場的評核已經把推動市集減少使用塑膠袋列進我們政策配合的項目裡，所以經濟部到底有沒有一套自己可年度追蹤減塑的KPI以及年度的揭露方式？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T09:39:54.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:40:06.174000+08:00","text":"我想說在商業的話，不管是商圈市場這一塊的減塑，我們是一定會加強廣宣跟推廣，這個我們會去推動。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:40:07.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:40:26.487000+08:00","text":"如果經濟部沒有自己的KPI，那減塑就很容易永遠停留在環境部管末端卻管不到前端，而經濟部只做一些輔導，我覺得這不太恰當，所以我覺得經濟部應該更往前一步，把減塑正式變成商業服務跟產業治理的一部分。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T09:40:27.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:40:28.216000+08:00","text":"這個我們來努力。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:40:30.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:40:37.782000+08:00","text":"最後我想彭部長也在這邊，麻煩環境部在接下來的一個月內給我這些相關的資料。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-08T09:40:38.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:40:47.309000+08:00","text":"經濟部也是，包含剛剛副署長提的，麻煩在一個月內兩個部會都給我相關的資料可以嗎？部長。可以。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T09:40:47.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:40:47.789000+08:00","text":"可以，謝謝委員。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T09:40:49.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:40:51.071000+08:00","text":"謝謝林月琴召委的發言。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T09:40:51.571000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:40:54.713857+08:00","text":"下一位請陳菁徽委員發言。","quality":0.273}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}