{"error":false,"id":["168216"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168216,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168216","日期":"2026-04-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-08T09:40:59+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-08T09:56:40+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0a34a21894e8d5ba401ae777e4c72867e413b5cd1255e9444b5955a0c0d9861e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:40:59 - 09:56:40","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部就「穩定供給與減塑並進：因應國際原物料波動之原物料穩定供應及我國減塑治理進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n一、審查「廢棄物清理法條文修正草案」9案：\n（一）委員馬文君等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員顏寬恒等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林淑芬等22人擬具「廢棄物清理法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張宏陸等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員許智傑等29人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「資源回收再利用法修正草案」2案：\n（一）委員許智傑等28人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n（二）委員盧縣一等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及法律案綜合詢答，法律案僅詢答】\n【4月8日及9日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":3.0178437500000004,"end":7.000343750000001,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":7.894718750000001,"end":8.77221875,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":11.40471875,"end":12.24846875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":12.872843750000001,"end":38.96159375,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":39.180968750000005,"end":78.80346875000001,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":78.92159375,"end":93.99096875000001,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":94.12596875000001,"end":95.99909375,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":95.99909375,"end":109.22909375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":109.31346875000001,"end":123.42096875000001,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":122.62784375000001,"end":128.02784375000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":127.65659375000001,"end":133.64721875,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"顏署長旭明","start":133.96784375000001,"end":154.60596875000002,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"顏署長旭明","start":154.70721875,"end":162.85784375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"顏署長旭明","start":163.61721875,"end":178.31534375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"顏署長旭明","start":178.77096875,"end":204.65721875000003,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"顏署長旭明","start":205.23096875000002,"end":209.12909375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":205.46721875,"end":207.25596875000002,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":208.20096875000002,"end":208.53846875000002,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"顏署長旭明","start":209.33159375000002,"end":212.35221875000002,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":209.34846875000002,"end":213.26346875000002,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":213.66846875000002,"end":224.95784375000002,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":224.95784375000002,"end":226.57784375000003,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":226.25721875000002,"end":235.52159375000002,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":230.02034375000002,"end":230.88096875000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":232.58534375000002,"end":232.99034375000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":235.13346875000002,"end":247.84034375000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":247.89096875,"end":269.55846875000003,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":254.03346875000003,"end":254.33721875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"顏署長旭明","start":260.26034375,"end":260.96909375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"顏署長旭明","start":261.22221875,"end":263.97284375000004,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":271.27971875000003,"end":301.55346875000004,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":301.87409375000004,"end":303.47721875,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":303.89909375,"end":308.45534375,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":308.64096875,"end":321.65159375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":322.64721875000004,"end":325.24596875000003,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":325.49909375000004,"end":348.56721875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":330.59534375000004,"end":330.89909375,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEA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謝謝委員還有謝謝官員彭部長 謝謝麻煩彭部長這邊好"},{"start":12.952,"end":38.264,"text":"部長我先講就是我接到的一個陳情案在我們辦公室也就是有人在描述環關署呢裡面有兩個案子分別是兩位不同的科長但是他檢舉的是去年的八月中那今年已經到了三月我還持續收到陳情那我大概跟部長簡述一下這兩個案子第一個是在講一位環關署的孫姓科長"},{"start":40.284,"end":66.055,"text":"這個數位執法科的科長他在這個稽查同仁的外套採購案的時候因為經費控管的問題主管會議直接大罵同仁但是他們檢舉說跟我們澄清說居然還讓他出來選一個模範的公務員另外一案是環平的科長因為公文超過4個小時所以在下班的時候傳訊息這樣子的簡訊"},{"start":68.696,"end":93.71,"text":"來做霸凌那我想問從去年8月這個看起來是有成立的時間檢舉的時間那到現在處理的狀況如何了因為這個是黃管署我們是他是獨立機關那這個案子我是事後才會才有知道那他們也有去調查不過因為那個當事人他並沒有認為他被霸凌所以這個問題要成案還要一定的一個程序"},{"start":94.21,"end":108.811,"text":"所以這個案子已經結案了嗎我會再繼續再追查因為報告委員其實這個有時候在公務機關這種有時候主管嚴厲一點點那種不舒服的那種案件還蠻多的所以我們有一定的一個程序在做處理"},{"start":109.352,"end":133.456,"text":"您的意思是說這兩個案子分別是兩位科長但是經過調查這兩位科長所辱罵或者是說您說言語比較嚴厲的當事人兩位並沒有感受到應該是其中有一位不過因為這個是不是請我們署長因為這是獨立機關沒關係我是想請部長回覆說大概多久以內可以給我們進度您的調查進度"},{"start":134.165,"end":162.585,"text":"報告委員這一個陳情人他本身不是被霸凌的人他是看到別人所以他有反應那因為他沒有具名那所以我們就有啟動相關的霸凌的相關的會議或者是教育那這些被他講到的人我們也都有去調查他你有沒有被霸凌如果有有什麼管道可以來陳述他們都"},{"start":163.666,"end":177.905,"text":"以致說我們沒有被霸凌啦如果有的話他們會反應那我也有請外部的人來做教育訓練那訓練另外在9月16號我們也有再做一次全"},{"start":178.846,"end":204.393,"text":"全組的調查那所有的同仁都反應沒有那這是一個比較特殊的這一個組確實他是做反應執法的那這些同仁他的特性就是講話比較大剌剌的互相之間都是比較這個樣子那或許在這個部分我們在內部的教育訓練也在提醒以後講話的時候要客客氣氣要互相尊重"},{"start":205.513,"end":224.313,"text":"部長您請回所以這個案子目前目前的案子是到這個地方我先請部長回答部長因為他們是一個比較封閉看得出來署長都已經說講話比較大剌剌好像跟我接到的陳情不太一樣我可不可以請部長一個月內可以給我報告"},{"start":224.994,"end":251.952,"text":"好 這個我們會再了解啦因為假使兩位科長沒有錯我們也應該還兩位科長清白嘛 對不對那就請部長一個月給我這兩個案子的調查報告謝謝也請委員放心因為本部過去也經歷過嚴重的性騷擾事件這個我們清得很乾淨我們有一定的程序但是有時候同仁的這個心裡面的感受會不大一樣所以那個都有一個程序來界定的啦好 那再來我們就看一段影片不過我相信部長也蠻熟悉的"},{"start":254.974,"end":259.441,"text":"很多人開始在網路上流傳他們去找這些塑膠袋等等的比原本的售價已經多了兩倍了"},{"start":271.328,"end":290.18,"text":"那當然這是短期戰爭的因素可是我們不知道這件事情到底會持續多久那目前經濟部呢他有發布一個記者會他說他們會推出塑膠袋的評價專案具體的做法是等這個中油四清啊等等台塑啊企業去生產大量的這個5000噸的增產的乙烯讓下游的塑膠袋產量增產每個月會增加約12.5億個一斤的塑膠袋"},{"start":301.147,"end":321.212,"text":"那這個跟您剛的報告看在環境部的眼裡你覺得經濟部這樣子來反映你的感受是如何包委你不能夠用這樣比喻他們是穩定這個民生的習慣讓國人不會民生不要受到影響那我們是要推動減碩所以這個基本上他有他的這個這個交叉點是不大一樣的"},{"start":322.691,"end":347.937,"text":"但是它跟你的檢數是相違背的基本上委員如果說市場上我們現在買什麼東西都沒有任何的塑膠袋那個其實民眾的習慣的改變這個是衝擊是很大的我們也必須理解但是我們限塑的這個作為減少使用所以我們是用鼓勵用二手循環袋要讓民眾因為其實會用環保袋的就會自己用了但是我們覺得不夠多所以我們環境部主要是推動這個"},{"start":348.737,"end":371.315,"text":"好沒關係那等一下我就具體跟你討論一些國外的案例那這邊呢您是推了一個代代相傳剛剛你有做講解嘛這個代代相傳的活動請問現在你過去配合的業者應該蠻多的就是不管是循環杯啊等等的現在已經發布了一陣子了請問大概媒合的廠家有幾家"},{"start":371.955,"end":397.507,"text":"目前因為打電話來還有網路來的都蠻多的所以他們正在記錄那也跟我有報告那個是上禮拜四推出的在一個多禮拜的時間而已一個多禮拜大概幾家我們想知道一下精度因為我們會用量例如說現在有幾萬個了但是我們現在遇到一個挑戰就是說有些傳統市場他找不到那個人所以都要一個一個去連結所以我們一直還在討論說這個平台怎麼去建立"},{"start":397.867,"end":418.551,"text":"但是委員可以放心因為我們現在企業的ESG我們收到的認同的蠻多的他們都願意來做這個事情那我問一下剛剛您講到第一銀行跟建國華市這個第一銀行的塑膠袋他們是怎麼募集來的透過同仁二手袋他們是二手袋我們沒有募我們沒有募塑膠袋我們是募二手袋例如說它是紙袋或是環保袋"},{"start":419.456,"end":439.808,"text":"所以他們在把它捐到建國花市去使用我跟你稍微講一下這個問題點在哪裡說不定你可以想出解決的方法你現在其實就是做兩個這個表單嘛一個是提出需求的表單另外一個是可以填寫供應那當然您剛剛講到說夜市攤商可能會需要可是呢"},{"start":441.068,"end":464.641,"text":"剛剛有提到啦經濟部都已經說他會做一個月12.5億個好第一攤商會覺得說經濟部會做啊第二他也要在意顧客的感受嘛他今天可能他響應你這個政策可是要由他去說服顧客這個是很困難的這個是你遇到的痛點啊所以你會覺得你這個東西你幫自己病多久的時間以內你想媒合多少長假"},{"start":465.661,"end":483.066,"text":"委員這個是需要大量的推當社會的脈動希望委員一起來響應就會更多目前我們是很有自信目前這個媒合因為當時是趕快上線現在我們有新的做法像是一個撮合的平台甚至有一個Map一樣在哪裡可以取得我們都會做出來"},{"start":483.806,"end":488.029,"text":"那這個Map我就想跟你討論一下因為你已經推出了三個Map也是要稱讚比如說循環杯的介面這個服務是做得是不錯但是呢很少人用了點我在想你是不是考慮檢討那就去測點可是我覺得你不需要三個Map因為你現在已經有循環杯你有抗高溫糧食地圖"},{"start":503.558,"end":530.029,"text":"那現在你又有推出代代相傳這個地圖你要不要考慮把它全部整合在一起專屬於環境部的地圖這樣所有跟你們環境部相關的東西他都可以在上面找到我們現在就是往這方面去進行那你預計多久以內會達成這個現在要看他們的這個城市的進度啦因為同仁被我抄的蠻兇的所以我也不好意思給他們很大的壓力所以其實這個是我們已經列入一個計畫要趕快推動的"},{"start":531.69,"end":546.764,"text":"可能半年 三個月半年之類應該是一兩個月內就可以推動了那當然這個你剛剛有自己承認嘛你上任的時候說要啟動40處的減速事辦但是你上任是五月嘛那你六月遇到阻力所以又說要一步一步來"},{"start":547.244,"end":568.164,"text":"但是到2024年的年底你又說2030年禁用的這個目標是不變可是呢到現在2026年年初了似乎是原地踏步那當然如果說你中間有點作為的話現在可能就不會爆發這麼荒謬的一個塑膠袋之亂可是你中間剛剛你有講你遇到五個瓶頸嘛對不對對所以"},{"start":570.902,"end":581.608,"text":"不過委員這個我都去蹲點過委員你下次來跟我去蹲點你就知道遇到了什麼樣的問題但是我知道你現在幫自己設定一個新思維新目標變成2030年減量5%2035年減量10%但是我給你看一下這個是經濟部的數據"},{"start":588.431,"end":600.67,"text":"關於塑膠帶它的生產紫色的線是關於生產量因為有的是外銷的嘛關於粉紅色的線它是內銷量如果這個線的趨勢是這樣子你是如何幫自己可以訂出這個5%跟10%的KPI"},{"start":604.495,"end":621.044,"text":"那個是我說的是一個塑膠的原料的使用量不是塑膠袋那你也知道說我們這當中過去這幾年遇到一個疫情整個台灣社會結構性包含網購或是外帶的這個整個量大幅度的一個增加所以那個就是塑膠袋增加的一個很大的原因"},{"start":621.204,"end":648.295,"text":"那我具體的舉一個例子給您因為比如說台灣新加坡或者是馬來西亞或者是香港可能大家在這個夜市啊攤商消費的習慣是差不多的有一些做法我是希望你不要遇到事情是修改你的目標修改目標你可以修改你的做法不是委員你剛剛說的那個是2018年訂的那個其實社會的沒有經過充分的社會的驗證那香港呢是比我們多了三倍"},{"start":649.295,"end":675.316,"text":"香港比我們多了三倍我不用回香港當然我現在沒辦法去香港啦但是我不知道他們現在做的怎麼樣像新加坡他們其實是超市說一樣的限量沒關係我先幫你找資料我們不一定人要到那邊好不好我先跟你討論一下香港他們怎麼樣他在減速的過程他就下了法規那當然他有正痛期嘛他需要二到三年或者是最後呢最終他們需要四到五年他們才真的開始限速跟減量那"},{"start":675.936,"end":705.636,"text":"當然比如說你講的一次性備品一開始很多人也不習慣啊他去外面旅遊的時候突然都要開始自備牙膏牙刷可是現在你做了一陣子這經過震動期之後現在每個人出去旅遊都知道了那我是舉香港的例子看您要不要參考這樣子的做法他一開始呢他是規定說他知道大家買東西很不方便所以你剛有提到的湯湯水水生鮮的會滴水的比如說魚或是肉他會提供你沒有提袋的品口的袋子"},{"start":706.096,"end":714.738,"text":"可是一開始大家就會發現不管我有沒有買生鮮的或是會滴水的我就是想去拿那個袋子這個是人性所以他們反而這個提袋的減量了可是蘋果的塑膠袋大幅的上升因為不管去買菜或是買蘋果大家也去拿這個蘋果袋子用所以後來他們就發現這樣子的問題他們又再把法規收緊就規定說如果你這一單交易是生鮮的或免他就給你一個蘋果袋子"},{"start":734.542,"end":752.109,"text":"但是如果呢你最後需要這些乾貨或是水果他是不需要那就才需要到手肥或者是你就自備環保袋所以看你要不要這樣階段性的因為你剛剛提出來很多原因他不一定是每一個東西都使用他有的是乾的他不需要袋子"},{"start":752.506,"end":778.437,"text":"包委員因為香港的這種所謂的攤商夜市還有零售的沒有像我們那麼多這個香港做的我們早就做了我們的所有開發票的都必須用這個付費取得所以我們比他更前面我懂但是你會遇到一個痛點現在你怎麼好意思他們大部分都是現金交易所以你不會讓這個要收錢付費的塑膠袋的這個責任流落到攤商的老闆的身上所以委員那個我也特別"},{"start":779.037,"end":794.138,"text":"我清明年假花了很多时间去看每一个国家的详细的政策日本韩国新加坡香港甚至中国他们对于最后一里路的零售其实都没有去做直接的影响因为它是微型经济有很多的因素在里面"},{"start":794.318,"end":811.328,"text":"好那我就提出一個建議啦好第一比如說您剛提到的費這個太陽能光電把它回收那業者他就要預先繳一個大約1000元的回收清潔處理費嘛好再來環境部非常驕傲的四合一資源回收基金他就是這些"},{"start":812.108,"end":835.58,"text":"查理王這些瓶子他就必須要繳交這個空瓶的處理費這是擴大生產者的責任還有汽汽車燃油的空污費你不可能去攔下每一台車子然後跟阿伯收錢所以你會直接向中油台樹這樣子的財團有品生產者來收空氣污染防治費所以在這邊是具體跟您建議因為剛剛講了很多源頭源頭所以我們是不是要從源頭來"},{"start":836.741,"end":859.669,"text":"科稅讓生產者來延伸責任比如說我們用這個稅金來輔導塑膠袋工廠轉型為生產環保的包材同時讓傳統的塑膠袋在市場的批發價自動提高攤商自然就會減少使用他可能就會去輔導我們購買的人說你可以把這些東西全部放在一個袋子裡面你覺得這樣子可能我不是在吹現在就要做到這一波"},{"start":860.49,"end":877.71,"text":"這一波塑膠袋之亂這一波石化業成本上漲這一波結束之後你覺得環境部有沒有辦法跟經濟部一起動起來啟動對塑膠袋源頭瞌睡的可行性評估好 這個我們會來研究不過也跟委員報告我們針對有開發票的早就已經使用者付費了"},{"start":878.451,"end":888.535,"text":"現在大家爭議的是市場上最末端攤商不開發票的很多的微型經濟全台灣很多人都在靠這個工作我知道啊所以我在跟你說我在跟你說從源頭兩分鐘謝謝馬上所以這個部分不可能永遠從末端去做"},{"start":894.517,"end":914.009,"text":"去做開刀嗎這個很多的庶民他的生活行為雖然我環境部長我是認為是能夠自己帶環保帶我們也不會用塑膠袋可是很多民眾的行為當他不了解的時候他還是很依賴所以這個部分是需要文化的轉變那我們會跟經濟部來討論說如何去做得更好請問這個可行性評估大概多久以後可以去"},{"start":914.389,"end":934.682,"text":"因為這是一個很長期的因為這個是庶民經濟很多的弱勢的人或是一般的人都是在市場上工作的所以你要他成提高大幅提高的成本像這次增加一點成本他們就受不了所以基本上我是認為是要再討論那我們也也會再觀察因為這些每一個我找出那個問題就直接提供好這請環境部提供報告因為已經超過好謝謝好"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:41:02.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:41:04.673000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席、謝謝委員，還有謝謝官員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:41:04.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:41:04.953000+08:00","text":"請彭部長，謝謝。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席（林委員月琴）","start":"2026-04-08T09:41:04.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:41:06.936000+08:00","text":"麻煩彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:41:06.936000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:41:11.952000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:41:11.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:41:30.621000+08:00","text":"部長，我先講一個我辦公室接到的陳情案，有人描述環管署裡有兩個案子，分別有兩位不同的科長，但他是去年8月中檢舉的，今年已經到了3月我還持續收到陳情。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:41:31.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:42:08.257000+08:00","text":"我大概跟部長簡述一下這兩個案子，第一個是在講一位環管署的孫姓科長，這位數位執法科的科長在稽查同仁的外套採購案的時候，因為經費控管的問題，在主管會議直接大罵同仁，但是他們的檢舉是跟我陳情，說居然還讓他出來選模範公務員；另一案是環評的科長，因為公文超過4個小時，所以下班的時候還傳簡訊霸凌。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:42:08.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:42:17.421000+08:00","text":"我想問，從去年8月看起來是有檢舉成立的時間，到現在處理的狀況是如何？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:42:19.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:42:32.690000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為這個是環管署，它是獨立機關，這個案子我是事後才知道，他們也有去調查，不過因為當事人並不認為他被霸凌，所以這個問題要成案還要一定的程序。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:42:33.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:42:35.253000+08:00","text":"所以這個案子已經結案了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:42:35.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:42:47.791000+08:00","text":"我會再繼續追查，因為在公務機關有時候主管嚴厲一點點，那種不舒服的案件還蠻多的，所以我們會有一定的程序在處理。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:42:48.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:43:02.146000+08:00","text":"您的意思是說，這兩個案子分別是兩位科長，但經過調查，這兩位科長辱罵或者是您說的言語比較嚴厲，但兩位當事人並沒有感受到？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:43:02.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:43:06.950000+08:00","text":"應該是其中有一位，這個是不是請我們的署長來說明，因為這是獨立機關？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:43:06.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:43:12.436000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我是想請部長回復，大概多久以內可以給我您的調查進度？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2026-04-08T09:43:13.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:43:20.890000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個陳情人本身並不是被霸凌的人，他是看到別人，所以有反映。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2026-04-08T09:43:22.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:43:44.569000+08:00","text":"他沒有具名，但我們也有啟動霸凌的相關會議或者是教育，這些被他講到的人，我們也都有去調查他，問他有沒有被霸凌，如果有，有什麼管道可以陳述，他們都一致說他們沒有被霸凌。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2026-04-08T09:43:45.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:43:51.618000+08:00","text":"如果有的話，他們會反映；也有請外部的人來做教育訓練。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2026-04-08T09:43:51.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:44:01.027000+08:00","text":"另外在9月16號我們也有再做一次全組的調查，所有的同仁都反映沒有。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2026-04-08T09:44:01.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:44:30.279000+08:00","text":"這個確實是比較特殊，這個組是做環境執法的，這些同仁的特性就是講話比較大喇喇的，互相之間都比較是這個樣子，或許這個部分在我們內部的教育訓練會一再提醒，以後講話的時候要客客氣氣、要互相尊重，所以這個案子目前是到這個地方。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:44:30.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:44:31.381000+08:00","text":"您請回，我先請部長回答。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:44:31.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:44:43.293000+08:00","text":"部長，因為他們比較封閉，看得出來，署長都已經說講話比較大喇喇，好像跟我接到的陳情不太一樣，我可不可以請部長在一個月內給我報告？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:44:43.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:44:45.075000+08:00","text":"好，這個我們會再了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:44:45.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:44:49.958000+08:00","text":"假使兩位科長沒有錯，我們也應該還兩位科長清白嘛，對不對？是。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:44:49.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:44:54.541000+08:00","text":"那就請部長一個月給我這兩個案子的調查報告，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:44:54.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:45:06.389000+08:00","text":"是，也請委員放心，因為本部過去也經歷過嚴重的性騷擾事件，我們有一定的程序會清得很乾淨，但是有時候同仁心裡面的感受會不大一樣，所以都有一個程序來界定。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:45:06.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:45:10.932000+08:00","text":"好，再來我們看一段影片，不過我相信部長也蠻熟悉的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:45:10.932000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:45:13.974000+08:00","text":"（播放影片）","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:45:13.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:46:07.149000+08:00","text":"很多人開始在網路上流傳找塑膠袋等等的情形，售價已經比原本多了2倍，當然這是因為短期戰爭的因素，可是我們不知道這件事情到底會持續多久，目前經濟部有發布記者會表示，會推出塑膠袋的平價專案，具體的作法是等中油、四輕、台塑等企業生產5,000噸的大量乙烯，讓下游的塑膠袋產量增產，每個月會增加約12.5億個1斤裝塑膠袋，這跟您剛剛的報告……經濟部這樣的反應，看在環境部眼裡的感受是如何？","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:46:08.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:46:15.191000+08:00","text":"報告委員，你不能用這樣比喻，他們是穩定民生的習慣，讓國人的民生不要受到影響。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:46:15.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:46:20.192000+08:00","text":"我們是要推動減塑，所以基本上他有他的……我們的交叉點是不大一樣的。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:46:21.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:46:24.012000+08:00","text":"但是他跟你的減塑是相違背的。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:46:24.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:46:46.937000+08:00","text":"委員，基本上，如果我們在市場想買東西都沒有任何的塑膠袋，其實民眾對於習慣的改變，衝擊是很大的，我們也必須理解，但是限塑的作為是減少使用，所以我們鼓勵用二手循環袋，要讓民眾……其實會用環保袋的人自己就會用了，但是我們覺得不夠多，所以環境部主要是推動這個。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:46:47.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:47:10.295000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，等一下我會具體跟你討論一些國外的案例，您推了一個袋袋箱傳，你剛才有講解，有關袋袋箱傳的活動，你過去配合的業者應該蠻多的，不管是循環杯等等的，現在已經發布一陣子了，請問媒合的廠商大概有幾家？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:47:10.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:47:20.840000+08:00","text":"因為目前打電話來及使用網路都蠻多的，所以他們現在正在記錄，也跟委員報告，那是上禮拜四才推出，只有一個多禮拜的時間而已。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:47:20.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:47:22.500000+08:00","text":"一個多禮拜大概幾家？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:47:22.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:47:23.361000+08:00","text":"我們想知道進度。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:47:24.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:47:43.475000+08:00","text":"我們會用量，例如現在有幾萬個了，但是我們現在遇到一個挑戰，就是有些傳統市場找不到那個人，都要一個、一個去連結，所以我們還一直在討論這個平台如何去建立，但是委員可以放心，因為現在企業的ESG，我們收到的認同是蠻多的，他們都願意來做這件事情。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:47:44.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:47:49.221000+08:00","text":"請問剛才您講到第一銀行跟建國花市，第一銀行的塑膠袋是怎麼募集來的？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:47:49.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:47:57.531000+08:00","text":"透過同仁……二手袋，他們是二手袋，我們沒有募塑膠袋，是募二手袋，例如紙袋或是環保袋。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:47:58.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:48:00.818000+08:00","text":"所以他們再把它捐到建國花市去使用？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:48:00.818000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:48:01.818000+08:00","text":"Yes，對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:48:01.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:48:07.141000+08:00","text":"我跟你稍微講一下這個問題點在哪裡，說不定你可以想出解決的方法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:48:07.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:48:14.345000+08:00","text":"現在其實就是做兩個表單，一個是提出需求的表單，另外一個可以填寫供應。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:48:14.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:48:24.010000+08:00","text":"另外您講到夜市、攤商可能會需要，可是剛才也有提到經濟部已經說每個月會做12.5億個。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:48:24.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:48:38.078000+08:00","text":"第一，攤商會覺得經濟部會做；第二，他也要在意顧客的感受，他今天可能響應這個政策，可是要由他去說服顧客是很困難的，這是你遇到的痛點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:48:40.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:48:43.501000+08:00","text":"這個部分你幫自己訂多久的時間以內，你想媒合多少廠家？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:48:44.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:48:50.423000+08:00","text":"委員，這需要大量的推，當社會的脈動……希望委員一起來響應就會更多。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:48:50.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:49:02.066000+08:00","text":"目前我們是很有自信，目前媒合情形……因為當時為了趕快上線，我們現在新的做法像是一個撮合的平台，甚至有一個map，在哪裡可以取得都會做出來。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:49:02.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:49:05.067000+08:00","text":"好，我想跟你討論這個map，因為你已經推出了3個map，也是要稱讚，比如循環杯的介面，這個服務是做得不錯，但是針對很少人用的點，是不是有考慮檢討撤點？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:49:05.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:49:34.183000+08:00","text":"另外我覺得不需要3個map，因為已經有循環杯、抗高溫涼適地圖，現在又推出袋袋箱傳地圖，你要不要考慮把它全部整合在一起，專屬於環境部的地圖，這樣所有跟環境部相關的東西都可以在上面找到？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:49:35.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:49:36.764000+08:00","text":"委員，我們現在就是往這方面去進行，謝謝。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:49:37.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:49:38.925000+08:00","text":"你預計多久以內會達成？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:49:39.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:49:42.467000+08:00","text":"現在要看他們程式的進度啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:49:42.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:49:49.009000+08:00","text":"因為同仁被我操得蠻兇的，所以我也不好意思給他們很大的壓力，其實我們已將這部分列入計畫，要趕快推動。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:49:50.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:49:52.151000+08:00","text":"列入計畫了，可能三個月或半年之內？","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:49:52.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:49:54.233000+08:00","text":"應該是一、兩個月內就可以推動。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:49:54.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:50:16.273000+08:00","text":"好，你剛剛有自己承認，上任時說要啟動40處的減塑試辦，你上任是5月，6月你遇到阻力所以又說要一步一步來，到2024年的年底又說2030年禁用的目標不變，可是到現在2026年初了，似乎是原地踏步。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:50:17.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:50:27.144000+08:00","text":"如果你中間有點作為的話，現在可能就不會爆發這麼荒謬的塑膠袋之亂，可是這中間……剛剛你有講遇到5個瓶頸，對不對？對。所以……","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:50:30.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:50:35.465000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這些狀況我都去蹲點過，委員下次跟我去蹲點，你就知道遇到什麼樣的問題。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:50:35.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:50:59.650000+08:00","text":"我知道，你現在幫自己設定一個新思維、新目標，變成2030年減量5%、2035年減量10%，但是請你看經濟部的數據，關於塑膠袋的生產，紫色的線是生產量，有的是外銷，粉紅色的線是內銷量，如果這些線的趨勢是這樣，你是如何幫自己訂出5%和10%的KPI？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:03.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:07.297000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我說的是塑膠原料的使用量，不是塑膠袋。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:07.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:20.024000+08:00","text":"你也知道過去這幾年遇到一個疫情，整個臺灣社會結構，包含網購或是外帶整個量大幅度的增加，那就是塑膠袋增加的一個很大的原因。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:20.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:38.591000+08:00","text":"我具體的舉一個例子給您，比如臺灣、新加坡、馬來西亞或者是香港，可能大家在夜市、攤商消費的習慣差不多，有一些不同的做法，我是希望不要遇到事情就修改你的目標，可以修改你的做法。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:38.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:44.273000+08:00","text":"委員，你剛剛說的目標是2018年訂的，其實沒有經過充分的社會溝通……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:44.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:44.394000+08:00","text":"驗證，好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:48.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:49.276000+08:00","text":"香港比我們多了三倍。是。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:49.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:51:56.181000+08:00","text":"我不認為香港……當然我現在沒辦法去香港，我不知道他們現在做得怎麼樣，像新加坡其實超市都有一樣限定……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:51:56.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:00.365000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我先幫你找資料，我們不一定人要到那邊，好不好！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:00.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:13.755000+08:00","text":"我先跟你討論一下香港的作法，它在減塑的過程就下了法規，當然有陣痛期，需要二到三年，或者最終他們需要四到五年才真的開始限塑和減量。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:15.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:52:28.585000+08:00","text":"比如你講的一次性備品，一開始很多人也不習慣去外面旅遊的時候，突然都要開始自備牙膏、牙刷，可是現在做了一陣子，經過陣痛期之後，現在每個人出去旅遊都知道了。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:52:29.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:53:21.505000+08:00","text":"我是舉香港的例子，看您要不要參考這樣的做法，一開始是規定……他知道大家買東西很不方便，所以你剛才有提到的湯湯水水、生鮮、會滴水的，比如魚或是肉，他會提供沒有提袋的平口袋子，可是一開始大家就發現，不管我有沒有買生鮮的或是會滴水的，我就是想去拿那個袋子，這是人性，所以他們的提袋減量了，反而是平口的塑膠袋大幅上升，因為大家不管買菜或是買蘋果都去拿平口袋使用，他們後來發現這樣的問題，他們又再把法規收緊，就規定如果你這一單交易是生鮮的，可以豁免，他就給你一個平口袋子；但是如果你最後買乾貨或是水果則不用，袋子就需要收費，或者是你自備環保袋。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:53:21.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:53:31.089000+08:00","text":"所以看你要不要這樣階段性的推動，因為你剛才提出很多原因，不一定是每樣東西都適用，有些是乾的不需要袋子。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:53:31.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:53:44.091000+08:00","text":"報告委員，香港所謂的攤商、夜市還有零售沒有像我們這麼多，香港做的我們早就做了，我們所有開發票的商家都必須用付費取得，所以我們比他更前面。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:53:44.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:53:55.536000+08:00","text":"對，我懂，但是你會遇到一個痛點，現在你怎麼好意思……他們大部分都是現金交易，所以你不會讓付費取得塑膠袋的責任流落到攤商的老闆身上。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:53:55.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:54:12.717000+08:00","text":"委員，我清明連假特別花很多時間看了每一個國家的詳細政策，包括日本、韓國、新加坡、香港甚至中國，其實他們對於最後一哩路的零售都沒有做直接的影響，因為它是微型經濟，裡面有很多的因素。","quality":0.637},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:54:13.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:54:57.882000+08:00","text":"我提出一個建議，第一，比如您剛才提到回收廢太陽能光電，業者要預先繳大約1,000元的回收清潔處理費，另外環境部非常驕傲的四合一資源回收基金，比如茶裏王這些瓶子必須要繳交空瓶處理費，這是擴大生產者的責任，還有汽、機車燃油的空污費，你不可能去攔下每一輛車子然後跟阿伯收錢，所以你會直接向中油、台塑這些財團、油品生產者收空氣污染防制費，所以在此具體跟您建議，因為剛剛講了很多源頭，所以我們是不是要從源頭課稅，讓生產者延伸責任？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:54:58.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:14.367000+08:00","text":"比如我們用稅金來輔導塑膠袋工廠轉型為生產環保的包材，同時讓傳統的塑膠袋在市場的批發價自動提高，攤商自然就會減少使用，他可能就會去輔導購買的人說：你可以把這些東西全部放在一個袋子裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:14.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:15.608000+08:00","text":"你覺得這樣子是否有可行性？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:15.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:30.643000+08:00","text":"我不是在催現在就要做到，這一波塑膠袋之亂、這一波石化業成本上漲，這一波結束之後，你覺得環境部有沒有辦法跟經濟部一起動起來，啟動對塑膠袋源頭課稅的可行性評估？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:30.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:31.965000+08:00","text":"好，這個我們會來研究。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:32.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:45.074000+08:00","text":"不過也跟委員報告，我們針對有開發票的早就已經使用者付費了，現在大家爭議的是市場上最末端的攤商不開發票的很多微型經濟，全臺灣很多人都在靠這個工作，占了六成。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:45.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:46.434000+08:00","text":"我知道，所以我在跟你說從源頭。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:46.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:47.015000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分其實……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:47.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:55:54.278000+08:00","text":"你不可能永遠從末端去做、去開刀嘛！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:55:54.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:10.287000+08:00","text":"很多庶民的生活行為，雖然我環境部部長認為能夠自己帶環保袋，我們也不會用塑膠袋，可是很多民眾的行為，當他不了解的時候，他還是很倚賴，所以這個部分需要文化的轉變，我們會跟經濟部討論如何做得更好。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:10.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:12.789000+08:00","text":"請問這個可行性評估大概多久以後可以取得？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:13.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:24.676000+08:00","text":"因為這是很長期的，這個是庶民經濟，很多弱勢的人或是一般人都是在市場上工作，所以你要他大幅提高成本，像這次增加一點成本他們就受不了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:25.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:31.401000+08:00","text":"所以基本上我認為要再討論，我們也會再觀察，因為這些，每一個我找出那個問題……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:31.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:32.121000+08:00","text":"請環境部就直接提供。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:32.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:33.122000+08:00","text":"好，就請環境部提供報告。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:33.122000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:34.122000+08:00","text":"好，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:33.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:33.562000+08:00","text":"因為已經超過半小時了。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:33.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:33.662000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:33.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:33.662000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:34.162000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:36.733429+08:00","text":"謝謝陳菁徽委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T09:56:37.033429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T09:56:40.176286+08:00","text":"接下來請邱慧洳委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}