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我們有請彭部長有請彭部長王委員好部長好 部長我請教你全球塑膠公約它大概預計要減少多少的塑膠污染要減少多少的產量你們現在掌握到的訊息當然是 我記得有一個數字是75%產量是75%"},{"start":28.61,"end":44.301,"text":"污染是80%對對對就是說有一個這個數字但是因為過去這一年一兩年喔他們談都沒有談出一個結果尤其是產油國啊各方面所以我們但是他各國的這個協定可能是在年底或是明年應該會就會有一個方式出來對"},{"start":45.202,"end":49.164,"text":"這個是他訂出來我覺得是一個蠻高標的那在這樣的情況底下我們要跟國際接軌那我去看一下現在整個環境部你訂出來的目標2018年當時的環保署是要全面禁塑的他2030年是全面禁塑他其實是在亞洲他其實是喊的最前面"},{"start":67.933,"end":79.179,"text":"但是現在看起來這個部長你修正了你在去年底其實已經把這個全面禁售其實已經取消了你現在的目標是2030你的目標只有減量5%2035減量10%那我要請教部長的是如果按照你這樣的一個目標本席認為是過低啦齁對照全球塑膠公約他即將要減少的這個量跟污染的話我們差很大的距離耶"},{"start":96.989,"end":99.151,"text":"這樣我們跟國際接軌不了你可能沒有辦法去參加國際會議了包委員你可能對這個數據有點誤解這個是5跟10是10化的塑膠的量"},{"start":109.266,"end":137.476,"text":"那你 塑膠公約對 你可以換算成它的產量跟汙染你的比例是多少這個要去對照一下因為一個他們的強調是塑膠袋你們沒有對照嗎 你們要對照啊你們應該早就掌握這個全球塑膠公約它要求這個標準嘛那你自己現在已經估這一個你如果說是原生塑膠的量你把它換算成就是它的那個產量你這樣的占比大概是占比多少包委員這沒辦法 譬如說現在我這個螢幕這個也用到塑膠啊那這個就不是塑膠袋啊"},{"start":137.776,"end":156.972,"text":"那不知道你兩邊怎麼核對不一樣因為那個塑膠工業他訂的是我舉例塑膠工業他連那個耳棒用塑膠他都禁止他有很多的品項那他用那個品項弄起來跟生活有關的他會去禁他我知道我現在要問你的問題就是那你自己訂了一個你是這個原生塑膠的這一個百分比"},{"start":157.512,"end":165.038,"text":"你將來怎麼去跟國際接軌就是說這個全球塑膠公約他要求的是產量跟污染他已經定在那邊了你必須轉換成那個數據啊要不然你將來去參加國際性會議的時候你的報告跟他的要求你總是要轉換成說在你們的標準底下台灣目前譬如說我的產量我已經確保我可以達到50%或60%我的污染我可以達到譬如說60%或70%嘛那這樣子"},{"start":186.914,"end":203.312,"text":"你去出席國際會議跟國際評比起來人家才知道說你台灣我們的現況在哪裡嗎不是嗎報告委員我們說的是剛剛你那個5或10是一次性的石化的塑膠的用料那是整個例如說所有的東西都有我們是2030到5然後2035到10%那這個是完全是對盟歐盟"},{"start":207.877,"end":234.383,"text":"那這個塑膠工業它是針對某些產品例如說我剛才說的耳棒然後很多小小的東西我們看了也嚇一跳然後甚至的塑膠袋如何去用量都有定業限制這兩個是不一樣因為每個國家像我們台灣會產製出這樣的螢幕塑膠袋塑料的用量就特別多我們就希望這個比例一次性的能夠降低然後多用一個再生的回收的這個料來做處理所以這兩個意涵我們都會去遵守但是不大一樣"},{"start":235.154,"end":248.183,"text":"是啊 是不太一樣但是你總是要讓人家理解台灣我們現在做到什麼程度嘛 對不對所以你換算起來你要做的就是譬如說產量的部分你希望可以減量到多少因為像這個"},{"start":250.525,"end":269.678,"text":"環保團體他們都會有一些指標包括紙容器、塑膠袋或塑膠殘具這個是他們觀察我們有沒有減量的一些指標會有一些項目的那我覺得你現在你應該自己也要去把這一些設定出來比如說這一次我們看到因為這個美伊戰爭經濟部他就要增加5000噸的這一個最上游的這個原料"},{"start":275.862,"end":284.335,"text":"那我要問的是這五千噸它變成產品之後有沒有估算過它最終最想增加的是什麼就是塑膠袋對不對"},{"start":285.697,"end":312.798,"text":"就是塑膠袋那這一個我看到媒體問你你說這個跟你的減塑政策沒有背離我覺得在回答這件事你可能要先去問說因為這一波有一部分是恐慌性的囤積那你有沒有經濟部經紀有沒有代表有沒有估算過就是恐慌性的囤積加上現在的增產跟原來沒有美以易戰爭之前你的總塑膠袋的產量是增加還是減少有估算過嗎"},{"start":316.658,"end":338.058,"text":"跟委員報告因為之前的話有些是從進口過來那因為現在國際局勢進口那一塊現在很多都已經不進口了所以就會變成是台灣的內部自己要去生產所以你們有沒有評估過那個總量跟這個戰爭之前到底是增加還是減少還是一樣目前我沒有這個數據"},{"start":338.979,"end":360.989,"text":"你們沒有掌握嘛對不對那這個就是問題啊所以這個當部長你要說這個並行不備的時候恐怕不是喔如果他的總產量是增加的因為有些人是過度囤積了導致市場的缺貨在這樣的情況底下他就不是並行不備而是他的源頭坦白講是增量了所以這個部分我們來看一下我還有另外一個數據喔就是國內生產"},{"start":363.24,"end":392.433,"text":"跟那個進口量的這個比較就是我們的進口額這個經濟部要回答一下我們113年喔是4407百萬美元然後114年呢增加了11%那我要問這個經濟部的就進口的這一些塑膠到底是哪些用品就是在哪些類別可回收的佔比例多少然後會變成垃圾的佔比例多少這個你們有沒有掌握"},{"start":394.533,"end":419.489,"text":"這委員這個是不是容我那個會後再提供說明好所以也沒有掌握好那所以你可以看到我們從源頭經濟部是主管這一些我們的塑化原料還有生產製造的源頭端我們進口多少然後是什麼樣類的產品如果經濟部沒有掌握那環境部有掌握嗎你知道哪一種類別就是增加的很多嗎這增加11%增加哪些類別"},{"start":420.269,"end":446.768,"text":"包委我們對於這個因為這是上游是經濟部的工作我們是對於回收體系的衰退我們有注意到因為目前全世界因為這個永續的這個議題有受到一些波動簡單沒有影響但是這個回收的體系因為很多的例如說國際知名的大牌他不用添加的再生的力量的比例往後延了包含可溫可樂等等所以的確回收體系有受到很大的壓力"},{"start":447.068,"end":453.326,"text":"然後包含他的這個費用他可以回收的錢錢就沒有誘因了嘛所以就造成整個衰退這個是我們有注意到這個問題"},{"start":455.051,"end":459.514,"text":"對 所以我要講的是我們現在在整體的這個塑膠一個就是說我們跟全球國際的接軌我們這個部分我們要急起直追就是如果2040這個國際公約是要這樣定的話市長那個是非常高標的我覺得我們現在台灣距離這一步其實還非常的遙遠所以環境部責任重大另外一個就是說我們對於整體塑膠的源頭的管控"},{"start":479.304,"end":494.551,"text":"然後從自己生產也好或者是進口也好我們從源頭其實我們都沒有做一個很好的這個監督跟控制你根本不知道進口多少流向哪裡然後回收多少所以你總體的控制就是控制不了我覺得這一塊我要求這個環境部跟經濟部你們必須做出一個檢討報告"},{"start":500.273,"end":523.348,"text":"就是針對源頭我們到底總量減少多少然後我們到下游之後可以回收多少還有這個環境部還有努力的空間剛剛你一再回答委員說我們有我們的國企所以這個小吃店啊 攤商啊這個佔了六成的塑膠袋好像就一籌莫展了 沒有辦法但是有時候危機是轉機啊這一次剛好因為就是缺貨 有一些缺量"},{"start":523.928,"end":537.875,"text":"那所以你事實上在市場方面包括經濟部你可以請業者他就是做減量提供嘛減量提供這個是可以做到的啊鼓勵大家多用環保袋特別是那種塑膠袋塑膠袋沒有一定必要就那種手提的就市場最多這種然後就拿走這種拎著我們一方面鼓勵這個環保袋但是如果是那種類型的缺我個人覺得反而是你們去宣導那就是多用環保袋"},{"start":551.981,"end":576.389,"text":"減量那一塊的那一個一次性手提的那種塑膠袋嘛這個其實反而是一個推動的契機啊而不是說缺不管市場缺哪一樣我一律都提供這是不對的依裁一定優先提供包裝的你說醬油礦泉水那種一定要的包裁那也沒有辦法但是我個人認為市場上那一種塑膠袋真的本來就是我們減塑的目標不是嗎"},{"start":577.229,"end":605.634,"text":"這個應該好好去推動因為他們製作乙烯就我的了解是給這個食藥署醫材的部分這救命然後我們生活上譬如說吃東西吃個包子現在國內習慣還是必須用這個不用自己帶容器自己還是要一個塑膠袋所以他們是不要讓國人生活太大的衝擊那對我們來說就是全面的減我舉例像立法院委員你可以來推動立法院我們待會發便當多少個塑膠袋我們也可以來推我們環境部自己就來推"},{"start":606.294,"end":622.18,"text":"但是我們需要推的更多所以我們現在在社會整個風氣的轉變裡面我們的確訂了一些計畫來推動也希望委員可以支持我覺得我們檢縮的力道真的是差國際還有一段距離請大家加油然後要做一個檢討報告接下來我要問一個是垃圾的問題部長你曾經承諾兩年之內要移除全台48座垃圾山現在還有33座也就是你大概只有做了兩成五"},{"start":633.564,"end":660.178,"text":"那最近這個南投的議題看起來這個環團的抗爭還有地方政府的問題這個問題我沒有看到環境部的角色事實上當時看這個彭部長你也去過南投你當時講了一句話你說不能只要台積電不要焚化廠而且有一些焚化廠它是現代新型的再生能源焚化效率很好很乾淨這個都是你講的而且不會製造污染"},{"start":660.658,"end":672.146,"text":"但是現在看到南投的這個要設焚化廠 當時你也去看 你看起來像是支持的那現在你又說支持總統的雞尾酒療法但雞尾酒療法到底是什麼呢 它可以解決問題嗎到目前為止 環境部的態度是如何要支持地方政府去蓋嗎 還是就是要走雞尾酒療法 總統講的那如果是走總統講的雞尾酒療法 到底是什麼"},{"start":686.411,"end":711.232,"text":"到底是什麼第一個是說南投是全台灣沒有垃圾處理設施的地方所以這個是我們去看的草屯他們堆置如山那你剛才講到了33座垃圾山其實目前我們有信心但是南投現在大概有9萬多噸裸露在那個地方我們希望他們可以解決我們會督促他們要補助怎麼解決基本上目前本來不是你去看了也覺得可以有焚化廠嗎"},{"start":712.219,"end":735.055,"text":"我沒有說可不可以因為目前這個焚化廠要不要蓋是屬於地方自己環評自己的事務但是他因為用到一間農地所以他到時候送到內政部區委會的時候會到我們中央部會表達意見那我們當然態度會是嚴格審查會不會空污的影響等等這是我們的態度這是我們必要的一個程序農業部也會表達這個意見所以目前其實這個態度是地方的層次還沒有到我們這邊來"},{"start":736.616,"end":754.39,"text":"那所以中央你對於因為這個是在解決垃圾問題嘛中央的態度到底是支持他可以設立但是嚴格把關然後禁止污染的方向還是其實你們現在已經跟總統一樣就是反對就是覺得根本不需要有機會有療法就萬事OK了"},{"start":756.131,"end":771.743,"text":"肌胃酒療法是一個概念要很多元的處理例如說南投的源頭減量做的還可以再加強我也贊同這樣的一個做法其實我們也早就有提醒說他們應該源頭減量做好分類破帶檢查該做的都要做那目前來說的話他們的確還有一些進步的空間"},{"start":773.05,"end":800.792,"text":"雞尾酒療法不是其中也包含就是這個焚化廠嗎?甚至燃點中心嗎?也是其中的一環不是嗎?可能因為我不知道他們因為每個人講的是不大一樣你不知道總統講的是什麼?這是總統講的我看到那個候選人講的其實他有一些例如說他希望用到例如說SRF啊分類啊減碳啊這個等於是捲頭減量那個都是對的做法我相信南投縣政府也有在做所以你也不知道總統的雞尾酒療法是怎麼回事"},{"start":801.332,"end":826.58,"text":"基本上那個是候選人在推動在提出來的所以總統是候選人講出來的那是一個概念因為垃圾絕對不是只有單一個方法可以解決的部長這個我希望你可以堅持一些專業的原則你當時如果認為有一些再生能源中心它其實是更進步的也可以乾淨也不會製造污染我覺得作為中央主管機關你們有責任就提供給地方政府要蓋可以但是要蓋一個不會污染的"},{"start":828.26,"end":848.724,"text":"是符合世界標準的那這樣子可能也是一種解方那要不然就是你們必須輔導他進行所謂的雞尾酒療法一個候選人他不能去主導政策你是環境部才應該主導政策啊我希望這件事情不要成為政治攻防而是該怎麼做就怎麼做而環境部我相信你們的專業用你們的專業去輔導地方政府有效的解決垃圾問題可以嗎"},{"start":854.506,"end":870.059,"text":"對 這個垃圾處理本來就是地方事務當然我們在某些立場會表態但是到目前為止因為還沒有送到我們這邊我們不方便馬上表達任何意見好 我希望你們就秉持專業處理是 我們一直都是這樣好 謝謝好 謝謝王玉明委員發言接下來請廖偉祥"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:10:42.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:10:42.425000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:10:42.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:10:42.625000+08:00","text":"有請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:10:42.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:10:42.765000+08:00","text":"有請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:10:42.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:10:42.845000+08:00","text":"王委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:10:42.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:10:42.985000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:10:43.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:10:43.905000+08:00","text":"部長，我請教你，依你們現在掌握到的訊息，全球塑膠公約大概預計要減少多少的塑膠污染，要減少多少的產量？","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:10:44.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:10:44.646000+08:00","text":"我記得有一個數字是75%。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:10:44.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:11:09.311000+08:00","text":"產量是75%，污染是80%，對不對？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:11:09.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:11:23.301000+08:00","text":"對，有這一個數字，但是因為過去這一、兩年他們都沒有談出一個結果，尤其是產油國，但是各國的協定可能是在年底或是明年會有一個方式出來。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:11:23.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:11:55.538000+08:00","text":"對，這個是它訂出來的，我覺得是滿高標的，在這樣的情況底下，我們要跟國際接軌，我去看了一下現在環境部訂出來的目標，2018年時環保署在2030年是要全面禁塑的，在亞洲其實是喊得最前面的，但是現在看起來，部長你修正了，你在去年底其實已經把全面禁塑取消了，現在2030年你的目標只有減量5%，2035年減量10%。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:11:55.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:17.090000+08:00","text":"我要請教部長的是，你這樣的一個目標，本席認為是過低的，對照全球塑膠公約即將要減少的量跟污染，我們差很大的距離，這樣我們跟國際接軌不了，你可能沒有辦法去參加國際會議了。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:17.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:18.131000+08:00","text":"報告委員，你可能對這個數字有點誤解，這個5%跟10%是石化塑膠的量。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:29.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:29.987000+08:00","text":"塑膠公約……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:29.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:33.108000+08:00","text":"對，你可以換算成它的產量跟污染，你的比例是多少？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:33.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:36.169000+08:00","text":"這個要去對照一下，因為他們最強調是塑膠袋。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:36.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:37.109000+08:00","text":"你們沒有對照嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:37.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:37.809000+08:00","text":"你們應該要對照啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:37.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:38.809000+08:00","text":"這不一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:38.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:42.651000+08:00","text":"你們應該早就掌握全球塑膠公約要求的這個標準嘛。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:43.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:51.754000+08:00","text":"你自己現在已經估這部分，你如果說是原生塑膠的量，你把它換算成那個產量，占比大概是多少？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:51.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:54.435000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這沒辦法，譬如現在這個螢幕也用到塑膠。對。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:55.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:56.056000+08:00","text":"但這個就不是塑膠袋。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:57.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:58.297000+08:00","text":"這樣你兩邊怎麼核對？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:58.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:13:03.582000+08:00","text":"不一樣，因為塑膠公約訂的是，我舉例，連耳棒用塑膠它都禁止。對。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:13:04.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:13:09.126000+08:00","text":"它有很多的品項，跟生活有關的它會禁用。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:13:09.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:13:17.733000+08:00","text":"我知道，我現在要問你的問題就是，你自己訂了一個原生塑膠的百分比，你將來怎麼去跟國際接軌？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:13:17.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:13:52.161000+08:00","text":"全球塑膠公約要求的是降低產量跟污染，它已經訂在那邊了，你必須轉換成那個數據，要不然你將來去參加國際會議的時候，你的報告跟它的要求不同，你總是要轉換成以你們的標準來看，譬如臺灣目前的產量，我已經確保可以達到50%或60%，污染可以達到譬如60%或70%，這樣子你出席國際會議，跟國際評比起來，人家才知道我們臺灣的現況在哪裡，不是嗎？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:13:52.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:14:02.292000+08:00","text":"對，報告委員，我們說的是，剛剛你這個5%或10%是一次性的石化塑膠用量，那是整個，所有的東西都有，我們是2030到5%，然後2035到10%，這個完全是對應歐盟。對。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:14:07.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:14:18.820000+08:00","text":"這個塑膠公約是針對某些產品，例如我剛才說的耳棒，然後很多小小的東西，我們看了也嚇一跳，甚至塑膠袋用量都有訂一些限制，那兩個是不一樣的。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:14:18.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:14:33.383000+08:00","text":"因為每個國家，像我們臺灣會產製出這樣的螢幕、塑膠袋，塑料的用量就特別多，我們就希望這個比例，一次性的能夠降低，然後多用再生的、回收的料來做處理，所以這兩個意涵我們都會去遵守，但是不太一樣。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:14:34.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:14:40.699000+08:00","text":"是啊，是不太一樣，但是你總是要讓人家理解我們臺灣現在做到什麼程度，對不對？對。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:14:40.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:15:05.056000+08:00","text":"所以你換算起來，你要做的，譬如產量的部分，你希望可以減量到多少，因為像環保團體，他們都會有一些指標，包括紙容器、塑膠袋或塑膠餐具，這個是他們觀察我們有沒有減量的一些指標，針對一些項目，我覺得現在你自己也應該要去把這一些設定出來。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:15:05.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:15:24.797000+08:00","text":"比如說這一次我們看到因為美以伊戰爭，經濟部就要增加5,000噸最上游的原料，我要問這5,000噸變成產品之後，有沒有估算過它最終最想增加的是什麼，就是塑膠袋，對不對？是。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:15:27.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:15:38.367000+08:00","text":"我看到媒體問你，你說這個跟你的減塑政策沒有背離，我覺得在回答這件事時你可能要先去問……因為這一波有一部分是恐慌性的囤積。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:15:39.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:15:40.749000+08:00","text":"經濟部今天有沒有代表來？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:15:41.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:15:51.798000+08:00","text":"有沒有估算過恐慌性的囤積，加上現在增產跟原來沒有美以伊戰爭之前，總塑膠袋的產量是增加還是減少，有估算過嗎？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T10:15:55.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:09.611000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，之前有些是進口過來，但因為現在國際局勢影響，現在進口那一塊很多都已經不進口了，所以就會變成臺灣內部自己要去生產、去供應。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:09.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:16.358000+08:00","text":"所以你們有沒有評估過總量，現在和戰爭前到底是增加、減少，還是一樣？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:16.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:17.058000+08:00","text":"目前我沒有這個數據。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:17.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:19.400000+08:00","text":"你們沒有掌握嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:19.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:20.360000+08:00","text":"那這個就是問題啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:20.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:36.648000+08:00","text":"所以當部長說「並行不悖」的時候，恐怕不是這樣的，如果它總產量是增加的，因為有些人是過度囤積導致市場缺貨，在這樣的情況底下就不是「並行不悖」，坦白講它的源頭是增量了。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:37.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:56.626000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們來看一下，我還有另外一個數據，國內生產跟進口量的比較，關於我們的進口額……經濟部也要回答一下，我們113年是4,407百萬美元，然後114年增加了11%。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:57.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:17:11.413000+08:00","text":"我要問經濟部，進口的這一些塑膠到底是哪些用品，用在哪些類別，可回收的占比多少，會變成垃圾的占比多少，這個你們有沒有掌握？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T10:17:13.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:17:17.035000+08:00","text":"委員，是不是容我會後再提供說明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:17:17.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:17:19.537000+08:00","text":"所以也沒有掌握？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:17:20.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:17:29.583000+08:00","text":"你可以看到我們從源頭，經濟部是主管這一些塑化原料生產製造，源頭端進口多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:17:30.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:17:31.424000+08:00","text":"是什麼類的產品？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:17:31.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:17:33.946000+08:00","text":"如果經濟部沒有掌握，那環境部有掌握嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:17:33.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:17:35.447000+08:00","text":"你知道哪一種類別增加很多嗎？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:17:35.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:17:38.469000+08:00","text":"增加的11%是哪些類別？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:17:39.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:17:44.093000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為上游是經濟部的工作，我們有注意到回收體系的衰退。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:17:46.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:18:12.326000+08:00","text":"目前全世界因為永續的這個議題有受到一些波動，雖然減碳沒有影響，但是回收的體系，例如很多國際知名的大牌，它不用添加的、再生的力道的比例往後延了，包含可口可樂等等，所以的確回收體系受到很大的壓力，包含它的費用、可以回收的錢，但錢就沒有誘因了嘛，所以就造成整個衰退，我們有注意到這個問題。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:18:14.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:18:15.332000+08:00","text":"對，所以我要講的是我們現在整體的塑膠，一個是跟全球國際接軌這個部分，我們要急起直追。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:18:15.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:18:17.813000+08:00","text":"如果2040國際公約這樣訂的話，事實上那是非常高標的，我覺得我們臺灣現在距離這一步其實還非常的遙遠，所以環境部責任重大。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:18:17.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:18:52.450000+08:00","text":"另外一個，我們對於整體塑膠源頭的管控，從自己生產也好，或者是進口也好，我們從源頭其實沒有做很好的監督跟控制，你根本不知道進口多少、流向哪裡、回收多少，所以總體就是控制不了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:18:52.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:19:08.039000+08:00","text":"這一塊，我要求環境部跟經濟部必須做出一個檢討報告，針對源頭我們到底總量減少多少，然後到下游之後可以回收多少，環境部還有努力的空間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:19:08.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:19:16.884000+08:00","text":"剛剛你一再回答委員：我們有我們的國情，小吃店、攤商占了六成，因此減塑好像一籌莫展、沒有辦法。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:19:17.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:19:18.986000+08:00","text":"但是有時候危機是轉機啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:19:19.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:19:33.153000+08:00","text":"這一次剛好因為缺貨、有些缺量，所以事實上在市場方面，包括經濟部，你們可以請業者減量提供，減量提供這個是可以做到的，鼓勵大家多用環保袋。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:19:33.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:19:35.234000+08:00","text":"特別是那種塑膠袋，塑膠袋沒有一定必要，我指的是市場手提扯下來拿走、拎著的這種。","quality":0.629},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:19:35.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:02.505000+08:00","text":"我們一方面鼓勵環保袋，但是如果是那種類型的缺，我個人覺得你們要去宣導多用環保袋，減量一次性手提的塑膠袋，這反而是一個推動的契機，不是不管市場缺哪一樣，我一律都提供，這是不對的。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:03.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:15.389000+08:00","text":"我們一定優先提供醫材，包裝用的例如醬油、礦泉水一定要的包材，那也沒有辦法，但是我個人認為，市場上那一種塑膠袋真的本來就該是我們減塑的目標，不是嗎？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:16.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:16.969000+08:00","text":"這個應該好好去推廣。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:17.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:23.550000+08:00","text":"據我的了解，他們製作乙烯是給食藥署醫材的部分，這是救命……","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:23.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:24.550000+08:00","text":"對，是，救命一定要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:24.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:37.673000+08:00","text":"然後我們生活上吃東西，譬如吃個包子，現在國人習慣還是必須用這個，因為不用自己帶容器，還是要一個塑膠袋，所以他們是不要讓國人生活有太大的衝擊，但對我們來說就是全面的減。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:37.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:44.614000+08:00","text":"我舉例，委員也可以來推動，像立法院待會發便當用多少個塑膠袋，我們也可以來推，環境部自己就在推。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:44.614000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:45.614000+08:00","text":"可以啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:45.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:52.437000+08:00","text":"但是我們希望推的更多，所以我們現在的確在整個社會風氣的轉變裡面訂了一些計畫要來推動，也希望委員可以支持。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:52.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:58.719000+08:00","text":"好，我覺得我們減塑的力道真的差國際還有一段距離，請大家加油，然後要做一個檢討報告。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:58.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:59.519000+08:00","text":"接下來，我要問關於垃圾的問題。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:59.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:01.160000+08:00","text":"部長曾經承諾兩年之內要移除全臺48座垃圾山，現在還有33座，你大概只有做了兩成五。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:12.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:22.509000+08:00","text":"最近南投的議題，看起來環團的抗爭，還有地方政府的問題，這個問題我沒有看到環境部的角色。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:22.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:37.537000+08:00","text":"事實上當時彭部長也去過南投，你當時講了一句話：不能只要台積電，不要焚化廠，而且有一些焚化廠是現代新型的再生能源，焚化效率很好、很乾淨，不會製造污染。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:37.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:48.564000+08:00","text":"這個都是你講的，現在南投要設焚化廠，當時你也去看了，你看起來像是支持的，但現在你又說支持總統的雞尾酒療法，雞尾酒療法到底是什麼呢？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:48.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:48.864000+08:00","text":"可以解決問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:48.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:49.224000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，環境部的態度是如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:49.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:49.865000+08:00","text":"要支持地方政府去蓋嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:49.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:50.285000+08:00","text":"還是要走總統講的雞尾酒療法？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:50.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:51.146000+08:00","text":"如果是走總統講的雞尾酒療法，到底是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:22:06.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:22:14.499000+08:00","text":"第一個，南投是全臺灣唯一沒有垃圾處理設施的地方，所以我們去看草屯，堆置如山。是。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:22:15.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:22:25.388000+08:00","text":"你剛才講到33座垃圾山，其實目前我們有信心，但是南投現在大概有九萬多噸裸露在那個地方，我們希望他們可以解決，會督促他們要補助……","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:22:25.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:22:26.589000+08:00","text":"怎麼解決？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:22:26.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:22:27.690000+08:00","text":"基本上，目前……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:22:28.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:22:30.232000+08:00","text":"不是本來你去看了也覺得可以有焚化廠？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:22:31.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:22:43.108000+08:00","text":"我沒有說可不可以，因為目前焚化廠要不要蓋是屬於地方自己環評、自己的事務，但是因為它用到一些農地，所以到時候送到內政部區委會的時候，我們中央部會會表達意見。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:22:43.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:22:54.055000+08:00","text":"當然我們的態度會嚴格審查會不會有空污的影響等等，這是我們的態度，是我們必要的一個程序，農業部也會表達意見，目前這個態度是地方的層次，還沒有到我們這邊來。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:22:58.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:13.370000+08:00","text":"這個是在解決垃圾問題，中央的態度到底是支持他們可以設立，但是嚴格把關朝禁止污染的方向，還是其實你們現在已經跟總統一樣反對，覺得根本不需要，有雞尾酒療法就萬事OK了？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:15.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:30.743000+08:00","text":"雞尾酒療法是一個概念，要很多元的處理，例如南投的源頭減量還可以再加強，其實我也贊同這樣的做法，我們也早就有提醒他們應該源頭減量、做好分類、破袋檢查，該做的都要做，以目前來說，他們的確還有一些進步的空間。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:32.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:38.915000+08:00","text":"雞尾酒療法其中不是也包含焚化廠，還有生質能源中心也是其中的一環，不是嗎？","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:39.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:42.558000+08:00","text":"我不知道他們……因為每個人講的不大一樣……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:42.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:44.720000+08:00","text":"你不知道總統講的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:44.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:45.340000+08:00","text":"這是總統講的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:45.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:58.050000+08:00","text":"我看到候選人講的，例如他希望用到例如SRF、分類、減碳等於源頭減量，那個都是對的做法，我相信南投縣政府也有在做。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:58.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:59.772000+08:00","text":"所以你也不知道總統的雞尾酒療法是怎麼回事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:00.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:24:03.093000+08:00","text":"基本上那是候選人推動、提出來的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:03.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:24:06.114000+08:00","text":"所以總統是附和候選人講出來的？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:06.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:24:10.275000+08:00","text":"那是一個概念，因為垃圾絕對不是只有單一一個方法可以解決。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:10.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:24:30.841000+08:00","text":"部長，我希望你可以堅持一些專業的原則，你當時如果認為有一些再生能源中心其實是更進步的，也可以乾淨，也不會製造污染，我覺得作為中央主管機關，你們有責任提供地方政府建議，要蓋可以，但是要蓋一個不會污染的、符合世界標準的，這樣子可能也是一種解方。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:31.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:24:40.823000+08:00","text":"要不然你們必須輔導他進行所謂的雞尾酒療法，一個候選人不能去主導政策，你是環境部才應該主導政策啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:40.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:24:45.224000+08:00","text":"我希望這件事情不要成為政治攻防，而是該怎麼做就怎麼做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:46.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:24:47.724000+08:00","text":"我相信環境部的專業，用你們的專業去輔導地方政府有效地解決垃圾問題，可以嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:53.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:01.873000+08:00","text":"對，垃圾處理本來就是地方事務，當然我們在某些立場會表態，但是到目前為止，因為還沒有送到我們這邊，我們不方便馬上表達任何意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:25:01.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:03.094000+08:00","text":"好，我希望你們就秉持專業處理，好不好？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T10:25:03.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:05.496000+08:00","text":"是，我們一直都是這樣，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-08T10:25:05.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:07.117000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:25:07.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:07.978000+08:00","text":"謝謝王育敏委員發言。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:25:08.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:09.039000+08:00","text":"接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。","quality":0.545}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}