{"error":false,"id":["168237"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168237,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168237","日期":"2026-04-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-08T10:25:14+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-08T10:40:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:57","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0971bcb35216bb07b01ae777e4c72867e212c5ce4660756d36367c9c5a82321895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:25:14 - 10:40:11","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部就「穩定供給與減塑並進：因應國際原物料波動之原物料穩定供應及我國減塑治理進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n一、審查「廢棄物清理法條文修正草案」9案：\n（一）委員馬文君等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員顏寬恒等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林淑芬等22人擬具「廢棄物清理法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張宏陸等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員許智傑等29人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「資源回收再利用法修正草案」2案：\n（一）委員許智傑等28人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n（二）委員盧縣一等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及法律案綜合詢答，法律案僅詢答】\n【4月8日及9日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.25346875,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.704718750000001,"end":9.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.51846875,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.745968750000003,"end":27.621593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.00971875,"end":45.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.27284375,"end":46.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.213468750000004,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.025968750000004,"end":59.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.73034375,"end":61.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.62471875000001,"end":67.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.62409375,"end":65.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.41284375000001,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.17221875,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.57721875,"end":102.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.67846875000001,"end":69.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.79971875000001,"end":121.32846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.51409375,"end":134.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.92971875,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.02596875,"end":184.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.64784375000002,"end":217.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.70659375000002,"end":185.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.83284375000002,"end":188.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.21659375000002,"end":189.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.75221875000003,"end":231.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.65721875000003,"end":235.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.85909375000003,"end":236.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.92221875,"end":242.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.49096875,"end":319.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.86284375,"end":325.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.02659375,"end":325.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.04346875000005,"end":325.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.06034375,"end":325.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.22909375,"end":325.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.24596875000003,"end":348.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.33034375,"end":326.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.66846875000005,"end":354.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.38096875,"end":352.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.16971875,"end":354.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.65909375,"end":360.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.01221875000005,"end":363.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.73784375,"end":364.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.06659375000004,"end":367.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.42096875000004,"end":367.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.21409375,"end":367.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.00721875000005,"end":370.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.28096875,"end":374.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.41534375000003,"end":376.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.11971875,"end":377.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.11034375,"end":392.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.26909375,"end":394.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.00721875000005,"end":395.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.05784375,"end":397.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.53846875000005,"end":404.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.60909375,"end":405.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.97596875000005,"end":406.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.81971875000005,"end":431.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.28409375,"end":432.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.95909375,"end":437.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.99596875000003,"end":444.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.68284375,"end":446.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.96534375000005,"end":447.03284375000004},{"sp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有請彭部長有請彭部長委員好 部長好這個台灣正邁向2050淨零排放那你也多次強調循環經濟是關鍵但是在這場綠色大轉型中我們社會中最弱勢的庇護工廠"},{"start":28.069,"end":41.201,"text":"那所謂庇護工廠也就是15歲以上有工作意願但工作能力不足的身心障礙者的就業職場像這個卻仍然面臨到譬如說烘焙、手工藝或是傳統產業的高度競爭難以跨入這個具備高附加價值的綠色供應鏈"},{"start":45.385,"end":59.494,"text":"那所以因此本席等一下我的簡報會給大家看有這相關的公文和陳情我想要請教一下目前這個弱勢優先採購是否有跟綠色採購做一個整合"},{"start":61.904,"end":71.517,"text":"綠色採購綠色採購定義啦還沒有針對弱勢的部分這個我們會再瞭解一下對所以你就是沒有整合嘛所以我也給你提供一下意見因為根據這個國際推動的這個社會責任公共採購他的經驗呢"},{"start":77.505,"end":92.458,"text":"這個政府採購應該是推動永續環境跟社會公平的雙重引擎好那在歐盟呢2014年的時候他其實他有一個指令第20條他有設有所謂保留合約的制度允許政府將特定的綠色採購"},{"start":93.739,"end":110.814,"text":"的案呢 限定由具備30%以上身障啦或者是這個弱勢員工比例的機構參與好 那美國在這個美國在相關的計畫研究像AbilityOne它也有顯示這種戰略性的採購模式呢每投入一美元能為政府跟公眾"},{"start":111.794,"end":134.266,"text":"創造高達2.66美元的社會投資報酬率那也大幅節省政府在這個身障福利上面的補貼支出所以我想問一下部長你願不願意仿效去研究這個所謂的相關的這種採購制度來落實制度性的這種雙效採購那目前的綠色採購跟這個優先採購系統剛剛你講了其實它是相互獨立的那"},{"start":134.986,"end":146.716,"text":"他也導致這個基層人員的相關的行政負擔那你是不是願意研議跟這個相關的部會進行系統的串接然後呢你可以針對同時具備所謂的環保標章或者是庇護工廠"},{"start":147.426,"end":158.994,"text":"生產的產品或在機關的綠色採購績效的平和中呢給予更高的權重譬如說加成1.5倍之類的讓這個機構呢和機關可以一次的採購就可以達到兩項的績效也實質帶動這個所謂的庇護工廠進入這個綠色供應鏈這部分部長怎麼看"},{"start":169.061,"end":195.217,"text":"謝謝委員 因為您剛才說的的確我們是綠色採購是強調永續環保的部分那沒有考慮到這種所謂弱勢或是庇護的功能那我也讓委員讓我們研究一下說國際上有沒有這樣的案例我們要提供對 像歐盟啊 美國他們其實都有在做這方面的推動這個我們可以來研究對 所以我要進一步深化跟你講這個為什麼是可以因為其實有很多許多庇護工廠也在積極的尋求轉型"},{"start":196.698,"end":215.637,"text":"比如說提議引進黑水盲的養殖或者是這種高效快速發酵的技術像我們之前去參觀的考察過這樣那因為他們是這類技術具有這種高度的規律性跟結構化的流程那也根據這個所謂的職能治療的研究也非常適合固定行為模式的相關的這種"},{"start":217.779,"end":226.546,"text":"比如說自閉症的學員啊他可以這個顯著的降低他的焦慮也提升他工作的穩定度喔那另外包含這種傳統碎紙作業啦產出的這個紙纖維較短然後回收價值有限但是如果引進這種專業的譬如說碎紙壓專機或者是"},{"start":236.993,"end":251.943,"text":"廢紙的纖維化的設備他可以讓這些廢紙呢直接壓成高品質的再生這個紙的漿原料再生紙漿原料可以讓百分之百的循環進入喔所以也參考我剛剛說的美國的Ability One的計畫他們其實是有"},{"start":253.364,"end":277.365,"text":"將這個機密文件銷毀列為他們標準勞務採購的項目那也讓這些資源回收跟身障的就業整合他們也在做這個事情喔那但是目前同樣的就是說邀請部長回去瞭解的事情是這樣喔因為你在做今天的循環經濟裡面其實他們是可以有角色但是這個角色他的困境也在於他的設備成本剛我有提到這個設備成本嘛"},{"start":277.825,"end":303.037,"text":"那雖然勞動部呢目前是有對於勞動部是有對於這種庇護工廠的這個構置一些單向的設備補助是有一些補助的額度啦可是他通常都是在10萬以下但是對於這種大型的構置這種相關的系統剛剛說的這種這個要壓紙回收的原料這種系統他可能都是數十萬到數百萬喔都有好那所以我覺得今天剛好這個題目是不是可以"},{"start":304.338,"end":323.234,"text":"我希望部長回去可以研議我這個方向你去跟相關的部會去討論比如說剛剛講到不管是黑水盲啦或者是碎紙作業啦你們是不是要有一個輔助機制然後把他們可以納入到你這個資源循環的系統裡面因為事實上有其他國家也在做這件事情那你同時可以貢獻這個循環經濟跟社會包容"},{"start":325.396,"end":340.766,"text":"這部分是不是可以請副長謝謝委員提供的意見這個是蠻好的因為我們現在是針對弱勢或是偏鄉或是地方創生或是相關的比較弱勢的去做處理這個庇護工廠我們的確過去沒有特別研究過那我們會來遵照委員的意見來研究"},{"start":341.607,"end":360.191,"text":"好那請部長是不是可以一個月內給本席辦公室一個相關的報告我們會先來去跟跨部會來進行討論對你要告訴我說你們有什麼進展然後你們有沒有相關的研究請提供報告給本席辦公室可以可以好那再來這題這個部長還是先請留著可是我還是想要請這個經濟部能源署的副署長副署長今天是這個經濟部能源署副署長對"},{"start":371.325,"end":376.305,"text":"或者是也可以請那個產業發展署的副署長那個副組長"},{"start":383.151,"end":403.137,"text":"我想要請教一下副署長或是副組長你們看是誰可以回答你們現在經濟部為了鼓勵既有的光電暗場轉換成高效模組好像你們在今年1月有公告在再生能源短購費率中有新增一個太陽光電太舊換新機制對不對"},{"start":406.946,"end":429.499,"text":"那根據規範只要換了新的太陽能板既有的發電量可以照以前的這個等購算那新增的發電量照新的算讓光電業者的其實在這部分他收益是可以增加那你們還說要現有盤點全台有這個800MW的既有暗場那想要請問一下那你預計未來五年會增加500MW對嗎如果說用這種換的方式"},{"start":432.501,"end":437.389,"text":"還是是嗎那你們預計今年有多少案場要淘汰預計會換多少量這個我們會再做盤點因為這個還有涉及到意願"},{"start":446.051,"end":474.01,"text":"立院什麼?議院但是你們當初在用這個規劃的時候你沒有去盤點過嗎?沒有去調查過嗎?應該是要有才會出現這個規劃吧我們是盤點就是超過10年的設置案那這些案件的設備基本上是比較老舊那效率可能有點衰退那這些就是未來可能會太久換新的一個那你們現在的方案是直接補助嗎?還是說費率的收益讓他們有一些費率收益的"},{"start":475.404,"end":483.062,"text":"呃誘因而已呃我們呃沒有沒有補助就是費率上面的誘因就是費率上面的誘因嗎好那接下來我就要再問了齁就是"},{"start":484.298,"end":512.692,"text":"我想要問我們彭部長啦所以剛剛其實業務委員提到可是他沒有提到這個論點就是說現在他們開始在鼓勵太舊換新但是這項政策其實無疑就是把很多原本你剛剛在講其實2035年以後才廢棄的模組提前可能提前到今年2026開始到2030年進入回收體系對不對那請教部長接下來的舊版你們的回收處理量能有準備好了嗎你們兩個單位有去溝通過嗎"},{"start":514.295,"end":525.847,"text":"因為這個就有嗎有有目前呃有現在有4家在處理嘛齁那我知道有幾家正在生澀當中因為他們看好未來的商機我想要請問一下經濟部在做這個事情的時候有沒有先跟你們溝通"},{"start":527.48,"end":554.097,"text":"有嘛對不對那你們有剛剛可是我剛剛問他說有多少量能你有掌握你有去盤點說如果他現在做這件事今年開始或是2026到2030年有多少量能會進來嗎他們現在這個提早淘汰的我們並不清楚因為我的量這是他們現在最新的政策我們並沒有去算這個淘汰的所以我剛其實問的是說你回收處理量能有準備好了嗎這個就等於是沒辦法回答囉有有有所以你們準備好他如果現在"},{"start":554.617,"end":581.119,"text":"你都不知道量能多少你怎麼可以確定你準備好我們現在有五家總共將近五千噸一個月可以處理五千噸的量能一個月可以處理五千噸所以你意思是說他淘汰下來五千噸你都可以就是都有辦法沒有問題好那好那我就要接下來再問那部長因為剛也有討論到你們其實你們環境部有這個資源回收管理基金那你們今天的會議三月份的會議資料有寫但目前的處理技術跟再生這個"},{"start":582.08,"end":611.132,"text":"的用途不同的用的方式不同那回收處理成本大概是每k瓦是一千六到兩千四那相較於能源署徵收的一千其實是尚不足以收支平衡請問部長那你現在已經收支不平衡了請問你們要怎麼處理因為現在的量很少所以他處理的成本相對的就會高那未來未來的這個均過他們的這個專業的有去估算未來的費用應該會慢慢的往未來是什麼時候然後你怎麼往下因為"},{"start":613.849,"end":632.599,"text":"127年什麼意思127年它的量就會起來127年對現在沒有這個量啊127年那我們剛剛說了你現在他們這個補助方案有可能是2026到2030就是115年開始就有這些量能出現了現在就有了"},{"start":632.919,"end":661.153,"text":"對嘛 現在又有了嘛所以你知道這裡會發生什麼事情嗎你現在每K瓦都是虧嘛你等於每K瓦你在回收的時候都虧嘛所以這不是我講的這是主計處的估算如果按照你這個每K瓦每K瓦的1000到2045年累積可收173億那估計處理成本是397億所以差額有224億耶那你現在在加速推動這個太陽能板的換新的時候這部分是不是就只會虧更多"},{"start":662.628,"end":676.654,"text":"因為你你也還沒到你也還沒到127年你的那個量體啦對不對包委員這個中間替換的部分這個模組回收費用是由業者出的你現在替換的部分你說你現在替換了然後那些下來的板"},{"start":677.248,"end":696.054,"text":"回收的成本咧你說他自己要再多拿一千六或是兩千四出來嗎就是給他們去處理所以這部分你可以保證不會影響到就是其他民眾要負擔的納稅錢嗎這個一千塊是屬於正常淘汰的二十年三十年之後正常淘汰的費用"},{"start":696.954,"end":725.056,"text":"所以你現在鼓勵的方式也就是說如果他們要提早這個十年到期的還要淘汰的這些成本都是確定不會由納稅人的錢買單是嗎就很像說去年那個可以保證嘛對不對對去年像嘉義有很多廢棄的光電板大量的那那個其實都是業者自己負擔沒有用到這個基金那所以我想問說那對於業者來講他說那我之前有繳這個一千塊的那你怎麼算最後他最後還是要除以"},{"start":725.592,"end":744.393,"text":"他最後除役的時候還是要用到那他現在就是提早要換了嘛那你換新的板當然是他自己要出啊我是說那個換下來的舊的板的回收的部分也是他們要出嗎是嗎是嗎就是說這2400是他要處理的好所以確定不會用到全民納稅人的錢你要確保喔這裡是有記錄的好那所以"},{"start":744.893,"end":755.286,"text":"因為我們擔心的就是說因為看到這個狀況這兩個機制如果你們兩個沒有溝通好的話就會變成是你本來就已經在虧了結果你現在突然又一大票進來要處理那你的成本還是這麼高"},{"start":756.57,"end":776.957,"text":"是不是部長你可以保證?因為現在是經濟部在代收這個錢,能源署在代收,那未來我們如果修的這個資源循環推動法裡面,那個所謂的太陽光電或風電的這種一開始就源頭管理就由循環署來管理,相對的這個機制或是費率可能會比較更有彈性。"},{"start":777.637,"end":791.802,"text":"因為你本來其實是為什麼本席這樣問是因為你本來上一年底的時候就有說可能要研議提高所謂的費率處理費率嘛對你本來說1000塊可能不夠你也要提高嘛對不對本來說上一年底就要處理但是你沒處理你你今天是說可能是因為"},{"start":792.702,"end":806.089,"text":"因為這個光電業者已經進入一個寒冬了所以基本上當我們提出這個想法跟溝通的時候我相信這個主力是非常大的我是要說因為你今年演到年底啦你年底不管你調你預計會調因為你剛剛說127年嘛"},{"start":809.951,"end":830.526,"text":"到現在是115年的情況之下還有12年的期間那你這中間等於所有都是在虧錢在處理所以你說你可能會你可能會年底會調那現在就會變成是說那今年年初他們有這樣子的一個方案出現了會不會導致大批的這些大批的業者他會想說那我就趕快提早在這個時候先回收因為這個時候處理是1000塊"},{"start":833.628,"end":860.162,"text":"會嗎不會 因為沒有人想要做這樣的事所以你覺得他這樣的鼓勵政策是不會造成不會造成的話那他鼓勵政策這樣不就有點自相矛盾嗎你說他們不願意做這個事那他們又推這個事那你有吸引到他們嗎他們是從那個發電效率可以提升可以多賺一點這個光電的錢這個角度就可以去算出來這是一個完全是一個財務模型我們算這個1000塊也是財務模型所以基本上不會有影響"},{"start":860.942,"end":874.726,"text":"好因為我要說的事情就是說你這個費用你要確保不會用到這個全民的納稅錢因為事實上我們不是說不鼓勵綠色能源發展要鼓勵可是我們現在看到這個機制我們很擔心"},{"start":876.847,"end":894.367,"text":"好不好不過我必須說這個可能寫的報告的人他不是很懂得這個財務模型的機制啦所以我們會去再做解釋你要回去再解釋喔好那請這個確保這件事情答應本席確保這件事情也給本席辦公室你解釋的給我們看一下你到底怎麼解釋這件事是好謝謝好謝謝廖偉祥委員發言"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}