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10:51:14","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長及台灣中油股份有限公司董事長、行政院經貿談判辦公室首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就「台美關稅協定（ART）中關於『擴大採購及購買』（原油、天然氣、發電設備等）項目之評估、規劃及涉及之問題與工作，並就台灣中油股份有限公司之增資案」進行報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":2.61284375,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":1.65096875,"end":2.0559687500000003,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":2.61284375,"end":2.6297187500000003,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":7.91159375,"end":11.387843750000002,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":12.26534375,"end":13.345343750000001,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":18.67784375,"end":50.28471875,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":50.75721875,"end":67.39596875000001,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":67.58159375000001,"end":71.09159375,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":71.56409375,"end":74.36534375000001,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":75.14159375,"end":75.15846875000001,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":75.15846875000001,"end":75.81659375000001,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":76.23846875000001,"end":85.24971875,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":84.62534375,"end":89.04659375,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":85.41846875,"end":86.19471875,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":88.23659375000001,"end":88.60784375,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":89.48534375,"end":89.58659375,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":89.58659375,"end":90.02534375,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":90.02534375,"end":92.80971875,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":93.23159375,"end":97.93971875000001,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":96.55596875,"end":98.74971875,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":99.23909375000001,"end":99.93096875,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":100.38659375,"end":120.65346875,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":121.15971875000001,"end":123.33659375,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":124.04534375,"end":128.78721875,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":129.81659375,"end":137.27534375000002,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":137.79846875,"end":160.79909375,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":159.55034375,"end":192.82784375,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":161.57534375,"end":166.60409375,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":193.26659375,"end":206.04096875000002,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":207.13784375,"end":211.39034375,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":211.72784375,"end":220.58721875,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":220.89096875,"end":222.10596875000002,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":222.56159375000001,"end":222.83159375000002,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":223.06784375,"end":252.49784375000002,"speaker_score":0.78},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":230.61096875,"end":230.66159375,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":230.69534375,"end":231.31971875000002,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":234.22221875000002,"end":237.25971875000002,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":244.93784375,"end":247.01346875000002,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":249.32534375,"end":253.79721875,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":254.06721875000002,"end":254.70846875,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"呂委員玉玲","start":255.68721875000003,"end":262.33596875,"speaker_score":0.952},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"黃副處長秀容","start":261.12096875000003,"end":265.59284375000004,"sp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那個有關於那個嚴副代表的辭職信 那院長在院會在立法院院會的時候已經有回答 就是說我們會這個全面的來盤點來檢討 那至於就是說我們"},{"start":146.955,"end":170.974,"text":"這個加入CPTPP的這件事情除了繼續這個推動這個會員國能夠共識讓我們入會以外同時我們也加強跟會員國個別雙邊的這個經貿的這個協議這些我們都知道五年了每一年我這個經濟委員會五年要六年的每一年問你們CPTPP的事情都一樣的一個答案就是這樣講就像你這樣講的"},{"start":172.595,"end":192.553,"text":"你知道嗎我們現在要證明的就是我們有能力解決這個貿易的壁壘我們包括美國人來租我們也進口了包括日本的核食這個產品我們也解禁了我們都解禁了什麼該做的我們都做了五年過去了還是沒有所以我們希望你們要具體的啦那個岩副代表所說的"},{"start":193.334,"end":221.846,"text":"在他的辭職裡面所說的確實有這樣子沒有具體的策略就是一直遊說這個會員國會員國不同意共識卷有一個會員國不同意就沒辦法進去那未來現在會員國的這些主席啊今年的主席輪值到越南越南是跟大陸的話關係非常的緊密那我們是不是有什麼方法讓越南能夠支持我們進入你們有方法嗎策略具體一點的有嗎"},{"start":223.466,"end":238.11,"text":"外交部林部長在這個立法院相關委員會的時候已經有回答就是說這個越南的台商是非常的多所以我們的相關的部會大家都一起的努力所以還是需要台商的資源的影響力各個的力量能夠來在這個"},{"start":240.171,"end":253.162,"text":"我們因為台灣國際處境的關係我們是永遠都不能放棄就持續努力事實上我們在當年要加入GATT WTO的時候有很多人認為不可能但經過十多年還是成功的你剛才講的都是以前都講過了現在"},{"start":255.748,"end":278.615,"text":"主席國換了這個越南你們就要用台商的資源的影響力來請他們表態支持嗎所以越南會表態支持嗎努力當中每一個成員國都有他各自的外交跟經貿的考量但是我們會用各種的管道徐代表你講的都那一套我要你告訴我我們的進程"},{"start":279.895,"end":284.78,"text":"我們可能做到的部分你們這幾年邊繼續動好預算再做這個會員國的遊說請他們同意 到現在呢"},{"start":289.993,"end":314.263,"text":"萊豬也進了 河豉也吃了還要怎麼樣所以我請你們再更積極一點好不好那現在我們最了解的一部分就是說2007年我們的經貿談判辦公室就成立了當時的時候是說要簽訂這個雙邊貿易協定這個FTA到了2016年我們又提升到行政院的層級也就是說到經濟委員會這個"},{"start":317.666,"end":335.043,"text":"這個層級經濟部這個層級所以我們希望我們未來在我們經濟跟我們貿易部分外交部分我們都在這邊借調人員都是屬於說任務型的這個組織編列可不可以說用常態性的來編列這個什麼處或什麼署的部分"},{"start":336.299,"end":363.849,"text":"事實上委員報告就是說事實上在OTN成立的這19年來據我所個人的了解其實在過程中都有提出就是說要編制化那為什麼不同意為什麼不能專屬單位要成為一個常態單位它是有各種方方面面的考量事實上嚴副總他到我們OTN以後我也跟他就曾經有討論然後我們也有向相關院裡相關的單位有提出"},{"start":364.309,"end":366.531,"text":"本席會這麼強調就是因為我們希望強化對外的經貿談判的能量是否"},{"start":385.023,"end":405.012,"text":"我們來建議行政院讓經貿辦公室能夠升格為常態性的單位讓你們培訓專有的人才能夠專業專門在我們這個外交跟經濟這個領域來做我們談判的這些經驗的累積可不可以再建議我們的行政院好不好是 謝謝委員我們一定會攜回向長官呈報好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:44:35.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:44:38.229000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請經貿辦公室徐代表。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:44:39.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:44:39.591000+08:00","text":"請經貿辦徐代表。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:44:45.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:44:45.917000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:44:46.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:45:15.237000+08:00","text":"徐代表，面對全球供應鏈重組以及區域經濟經貿整合的進程加速，我們臺灣若是沒有辦法融入高標準的國際經貿體系，勢必會面臨到被排除在國際市場的風險，限制臺灣出口產業的競爭力，所以我們能否加入CPTPP對臺灣而言至為關鍵。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:45:15.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:45:42.605000+08:00","text":"但是我們在2021年9月份就向CPTPP遞交申請書，到現在已經5年了，入會規定是要所有會員國都同意的情況之下，才能入會，請問經過了5年，我們有沒有什麼具體策略或是進程可以再加速，還是有可能加入？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:45:44.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:45:51.528000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，CPTPP的成員國對於新入會國訂定所謂的奧克蘭三原則，也就是……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:45:51.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:45:54.429000+08:00","text":"這個我們都知道，直接講我們有沒有辦法進入？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:45:55.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:45:57.570000+08:00","text":"5年了，還在等待嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:45:58.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:46:02.632000+08:00","text":"我們與行政院相關部會都一起在努力，各成員國……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:46:02.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:46:35.508000+08:00","text":"好，你說有在努力，我告訴你，因為在顏副代表生前的辭職信當中，有特別提到國家領導人層級對外宣稱的要爭取加入CPTPP一事，實際上在執行層次充滿著消極敷衍的態度，請教我們臺灣加入CPTPP有沒有實質確定的具體策略？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:46:37.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:46:49.211000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，有關於顏副代表的辭職信，院長在立法院院會的時候已經有回答，我們會全面來盤點、來檢討。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:46:49.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:47:06.765000+08:00","text":"至於我們加入CPTPP這件事情，除了繼續推動會員國能夠共識讓我們入會以外，同時，我們也加強跟會員國個別雙邊的經貿協議，包括臺加FIPA、臺英ETP、臺日數位貿易協議等等。","quality":0.705},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:47:06.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:47:20.556000+08:00","text":"這些我們都知道，5年了，我在經濟委員會已經5年要6年了，每一年問你們CPTPP的事情都是一樣的答案，就像你這樣講的，你知道嗎？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:47:20.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:47:37.852000+08:00","text":"我們現在要證明的是我們有能力解決貿易壁壘，包括美國萊豬，我們也進口了；日本核食產品，我們也解禁了，我們都解禁了，什麼該做的，我們都做了，5年過去了還是沒有，所以我希望你們要有具體的作為。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:47:38.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:08.846000+08:00","text":"顏副代表在他的辭職信裡面所說的，確實是這樣子，沒有具體策略，就是一直遊說會員國，會員國是共識決，有一個會員國不同意就沒辦法進去，今年的會員國主席輪值到越南，越南與大陸的關係非常緊密，我們有什麼方法讓越南能夠支持我們進入，你們有方法或是具體一點的策略，有嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:10.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:17.108000+08:00","text":"外交部林部長在立法院相關委員會的時候也已經有回答，越南的臺商非常多。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:17.108000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:18.108000+08:00","text":"要藉由臺商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:18.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:21.189000+08:00","text":"而且因為我們相關部會都一起努力，希望透過各個力量能夠在……","quality":0.423},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:21.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:23.650000+08:00","text":"還是需要臺商資源的影響力？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:27.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:31.515000+08:00","text":"因為臺灣國際處境的關係，我們是永遠都不能放棄，並且要持續努力。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:31.515000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:32.515000+08:00","text":"是不能放棄，已經等了5年。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:31.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:39.061000+08:00","text":"事實上，我們當年要加入GATT、WTO的時候，也有很多人認為不可能，但經過十多年還是成功了。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:39.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:51.030000+08:00","text":"徐代表，你剛講的都是以前講過的，現在主席國換成越南，你們要用臺商資源的影響力來請越南表態支持……","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:51.030000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:52.030000+08:00","text":"這是其中一個管道，但是我們會用各種管道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:51.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:54.311000+08:00","text":"所以越南會表態支持嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:54.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:48:54.752000+08:00","text":"努力當中？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:48:55.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:49:00.573000+08:00","text":"每一個成員國都有各自的外交及經貿考量，但是我們會運用各種管道。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:49:00.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:49:21.075000+08:00","text":"徐代表，你講的都是那一套，我要你告訴我，我們的進程、我們可能做到的部分，你們這些年編列多少預算在做會員國的遊說，想要取得他們的同意，到現在萊豬也進了、核食也吃了，還要怎麼樣？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:49:21.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:49:22.756000+08:00","text":"所以我請你們再更積極一點，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:49:22.756000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:49:24.196000+08:00","text":"是，我們會努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:49:24.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:50:02.023000+08:00","text":"現在我們了解的部分是，2007年經貿談判辦公室就成立了，當時是為了簽訂雙邊貿易協定（FTA），到2016年又提升到行政院層級，也就是到達經濟部這個層級，但是都是從經濟、貿易及外交的部分借調人員，都是屬於任務型的組織編列，可不可以常態性來編列什麼處或什麼署的部分？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:50:03.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:50:14.103000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，事實上，在OTN成立這十九年來，據我個人的了解，其實過程中都有提出要編制……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:50:14.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:50:16.424000+08:00","text":"那為什麼不同意，為什麼不能成為專屬單位？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:50:17.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:50:30.829000+08:00","text":"要成為一個常態單位有各種方方面面的考量，事實上，顏副總到我們OTN以後，我也曾經跟他討論，我們也有向院裡相關的單位提出相關的提案。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:50:30.829000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:50:31.829000+08:00","text":"好，徐代表……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:50:31.829000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:50:32.829000+08:00","text":"都在努力當中，後來是因為臺美談判的關係，所以這個有點擱置，但是我們還是有獲得院裡撥了六位編制人員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:50:32.829000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:50:33.829000+08:00","text":"徐代表，請你停下來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:50:33.829000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:50:34.829000+08:00","text":"是，不好意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:50:34.829000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:50:35.829000+08:00","text":"聽我問好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-04-08T10:50:31.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:51:08.971000+08:00","text":"本席會這麼強調，就是因為我們希望強化對外經貿談判的能量，我們建議行政院讓經貿辦公室能夠升格為常態性的單位，讓你們培訓專有人才，專門在我們外交跟經濟領域累積我們談判的經驗，可不可以再建議行政院，好不好？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:51:09.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:51:12.012000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員，我們一定會攜回向長官呈報。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:51:12.512000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:51:19.654857+08:00","text":"我還是譴責一下，我還是沒有收到你們楊珍妮代表的請假書。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐資深談判代表兼執行秘書崇欽","start":"2026-04-08T10:51:19.954857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:51:25.954857+08:00","text":"我們的函現在已經在作業當中，會盡快送到委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:51:26.254857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:51:33.683429+08:00","text":"好，讓本委會的各委員們知道這件事情，因為我也不能霸凌你們。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:51:33.983429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:51:37.412000+08:00","text":"接下來有請鄭天財委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}