{"error":false,"id":["168248"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168248,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168248","日期":"2026-04-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-15-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-08T10:12:50+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-08T10:26:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:57","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb08ff7c7b826f995302d46cf68b7d09b75ce185cfc45202cc08403647dd55c224a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:12:50 - 10:26:47","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：【變更議程】\n一、審查委員羅智強等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法增訂第二十四條之一條文草案」案。二、審查委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第一百三十三條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第十四條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第十四條及第一百三十四條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第十四條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第十四條條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員陳菁徽等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第十四條條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。九、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員林淑芬等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具「總統副總統選舉罷免法第十一條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「總統副總統選舉罷免法第十一條、第二十三條及第一百十七條條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「總統副總統選舉罷免法第十一條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員柯志恩等17人擬具「總統副總統選舉罷免法第十一條及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「總統副總統選舉罷免法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具「總統副總統選舉罷免法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答；第十一案及第十七案如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":0.9422187500000001,"end":7.87784375,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":9.19409375,"end":10.51034375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":13.345343750000001,"end":13.750343750000003,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":13.88534375,"end":14.391593750000002,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":14.77971875,"end":20.60159375,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":20.95596875,"end":51.06096875,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":51.297218750000006,"end":52.157843750000005,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":52.579718750000005,"end":55.752218750000004,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":56.10659375,"end":59.211593750000006,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":59.447843750000004,"end":61.06784375,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":61.439093750000005,"end":77.99346875,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":78.29721875,"end":91.52721875,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":91.99971875,"end":102.44534375,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":102.76596875000001,"end":127.67346875000001,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":128.02784375000002,"end":147.36659375000002,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":147.85596875000002,"end":151.31534375,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":152.98596875,"end":157.47471875000002,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":157.72784375,"end":158.75721875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":159.01034375,"end":168.94971875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":168.17346875,"end":172.45971875,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":169.38846875000002,"end":176.54346875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":176.71221875,"end":178.14659375000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":178.88909375,"end":181.53846875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":182.16284375,"end":184.12034375000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":184.44096875000002,"end":184.93034375000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":185.36909375000002,"end":188.60909375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":189.70596875,"end":199.71284375000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":195.52784375000002,"end":195.56159375000001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":195.56159375000001,"end":195.66284375,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":197.53596875000002,"end":201.67034375,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":200.21909375,"end":206.22659375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":205.78784375,"end":244.11096875,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"蔡處長金誥","start":206.91846875000002,"end":207.59346875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":245.69721875000002,"end":293.92596875000004,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":294.24659375000005,"end":297.16596875000005,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員鴻薇","start":297.23346875000004,"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部長 處長今天我們主要是聚焦在選罷法的修正那當然有不同的版本那其中有關於就是被判緩刑的期間是不得參選的部分剛才我們已經聽到民進黨的委員林淑芬委員做出了她的提案的說明"},{"start":34.873,"end":38.978,"text":"那剛才呢我也有仔細聆聽我們幾位民進黨委員大概都是聚焦在18歲以下的這個選舉權那比較沒有去觸及到這個緩行是不是要卡參選的問題"},{"start":51.391,"end":77.365,"text":"那所以有關於這個的修法現在看起來包含三黨都有提案那我也很仔細看了一下我們包含內政部跟中選會所提出來的報告以及剛才劉部長提出來的報告感覺上對這一部分我們內政部還是有保留的"},{"start":78.365,"end":82.188,"text":"但是呢我看到中選會所以在這一點我也請劉部長來聽聽看我有仔細看中選會的報告裡面的第四頁也許請處長可以做更詳細的說明那有關就是說我們在判處這個緩刑的部分到底可不可以說不能夠去登記為候選人"},{"start":102.884,"end":127.049,"text":"中選會提出了另外一個就是地方制度法也就是說我們現在地方制度法的規定因為第一個你可能是在被判緩席期間你不得去登記參選但是同時有一個狀況就是比如說以我個人來講我現在是民意代表我現在是立法委員"},{"start":128.169,"end":149.971,"text":"假使我被判緩刑的處分那我會不會因此而消失我這個公職人員的資格呢按照我們目前地方制度法的規定請問一下我有沒有就是我被判緩刑的話是不是就要被解除我的職權或職務"},{"start":153.015,"end":177.703,"text":"我們中選會中選會可不可以先做答覆因為這是你們的報告是 包委員那原本現行112年規定說緩刑不得參選是說為了端正罪行的一個觀念就是說對 這我知道我現在問你按照現在的地方制度法如果是依照地方制度法的規定民選的公職人員那如果說"},{"start":178.939,"end":188.388,"text":"判處這個79條第一項第四款前兩款那就是等於說第二款跟第三款以外之罪的話他如果說"},{"start":189.758,"end":211.851,"text":"如果說原本現行的規定是說如果未受緩刑宣告的話是要解除職權跟職務的那換句話說如果受緩刑宣告我就不必解除我的職務吧這個就是說當然緩刑宣告可不可以登記為候選人這是一個政策的選擇我知道我知道我剛才已經講得非常清楚嘛我只要以現行的地方制度法規定"},{"start":212.691,"end":242.251,"text":"我是現在民選的公職人員然後我被判這個宣告緩刑然後我會不會因此而必須去撤出我的職務現在的地方制度法非常明確的規定不會嘛對不對不會因為他如果受緩刑宣告的話他就不會被解除職務好這個我這個謝謝中選會的說明因為我剛才就是說你們的報告有提到現行的地方制度法"},{"start":242.551,"end":244.012,"text":"所以部長我為什麼提到我們中選會的報告也就是說這個提案我剛才講這是一個三黨都有相關的提案第二個中選會也提出來現在地方制度法的規定所以我覺得我們不可能一國兩制"},{"start":264.423,"end":293.578,"text":"也不可能一個民意代表或者民選的公職人員他有兩個制度也就是說他如果被判緩刑他就不能夠去登記參選但是我是現任的現任被判緩刑反而不用解除職務這個中間事實上確實有漢格的地方以及邏輯不通的地方那另外呢我也要特別提到除了林淑芬委員她剛才有"},{"start":294.578,"end":316.222,"text":"講到很多他的提案說明之外包含莊瑞雄委員他現在也是民進黨團的幹事長當時在修法的時候他有一段說法他說總統跟副總統有很多的特權在參選的限制上比較嚴格所以才會特別另立總統副總統的選罷法"},{"start":318.923,"end":341.261,"text":"否則的話他就按照選罷法就好啦大家一體適用就好啦那所以他說至於選罷法因為你規範的還下至村里長上至縣市首長立委那這些呢他跟總統和副總統的權利是沒有相對應的所以他覺得如果通通比照總統和副總統的選罷法他認為這樣的立法理由是說不通的"},{"start":346.986,"end":362.319,"text":"那當然莊烈雄委員因為他現在是幹事長他當然以他的身份他不適宜去提案但是我要講的就是說現在緩行卡參選其實有他諸多不合理之處這個並不是單一黨派去提出來的"},{"start":367.003,"end":380.879,"text":"另外我也想特別提到一個案例就是在之前立法委員選舉的時候台南市議員王家珍他當時是被助理費 辦助理費去辦他"},{"start":382,"end":401.874,"text":"可是後來其實法官發現他沒有把任何一毛錢放到自己的口袋當時王嘉臻的助理費是因為他有兩個助理因為他是被法院強制處分他為了要照顧他的助理的安家生活"},{"start":402.694,"end":425.434,"text":"所以呢他提高了另外的助理的費用然後去補貼這兩位的助理因為否則的話他所有的這個他的薪水會被做強制執行所以法官也認為說他其實沒有任何貪污的問題因為他沒有拿任何的一毛錢放到他自己的口袋那但是呢法官因為辦了嘛最後呢就"},{"start":427.176,"end":433.838,"text":"還是 就是判他緩刑 當時應該是用所謂的 就是偽照文書因為沒有辦法用助理費來辦他嘛 因為他沒有貪污好 結果呢 王嘉先生當時要去參選立法委員的時候就因為 他當時其實可以選擇 他可以去議科罰金他去找的罰金也沒事 可是他認為我無罪啊我為什麼要去找這個罰金 結果呢 他就因此"},{"start":455.046,"end":462.048,"text":"而被判這個就是判緩刑而且被剝奪了選舉權所以這事實上是非常不合理大家看起來是說喔對啊如果你貪污啊如果你有其他的這個相關的這個違法情形你就不應該登記參選但是王家臻這個就是一個例子你以為他是貪污結果他不是他是照顧他的助理但是呢他因為這樣卡了他參選權"},{"start":483.593,"end":505.188,"text":"所以我在這邊要講的就是說 我想中選會會去提防地方制度法 它已經發現這個問題了我們不可能兩個法律是有漢格的 同樣一個人只是一個是在他爭取參選之前被判緩刑 你就不能參選另外同樣的人 我在擔任這個民選公職人員 我就算被判緩刑我也"},{"start":505.988,"end":510.993,"text":"沒有傷害我任何的這個職務所以這個中間是有漢格所以我希望內政部把我剛才所講的這些不管中選會的意見或者各黨派的意見或者像王家珍這樣的一個案例"},{"start":523.485,"end":526.887,"text":"應該去做通盤檢討而不是面對這個修法的時候就是拒人於千里之外我想這個是必須要針對這個緩行的部分那個修法來做一個就是說希望我們內政部能夠從善如流"},{"start":543.197,"end":570.454,"text":"那另外就是剛才比較多委員去琢磨的就18歲以下的參政權這個部分剛才部長也一直說各黨派通通都支持那沒有錯在過去這個不管是修法或者公投各黨派通通都是支持的那這一次也有幾位委員有提案那其實我要再講一下就是說"},{"start":571.354,"end":573.014,"text":"比如說以國民黨內部來說確實有人跟我講說你們去做這樣的一個主張你們這樣主張國民黨的支持者可能年輕人不支持國民黨啊對你的選舉未必有利啊但是我覺得一個法治一個就是18歲的參政權"},{"start":592.879,"end":601.706,"text":"不應該去涉及任何的一個政黨或者任何一場選舉的利益這邊當然大家都講了就是說以現在國內來說我們在其他的各個這個相關的法律其實18歲都已經擁有很多權利但是呢現在呢看起來就只有投票是有限制的"},{"start":614.375,"end":617.216,"text":"那我要講我個人為什麼我強烈的支持18歲可以選舉因為我們這套憲法沒有錯我們這套憲法大概起碼是六七十年前所訂定的憲法當時規定20歲才能夠有選舉權大家想想看那個時候還有多少文盲啊當時的資訊"},{"start":640.865,"end":648.573,"text":"根本不普及當時的教育也不普及如果時隔六七十年我們還抱住這個憲法裡面規定的20歲才能夠去選舉我覺得華天下之大吉真的就是"},{"start":657.242,"end":659.082,"text":"很脫節跟時代太脫節了所以我個人我完全支持這個18歲的一個公民權18歲的選舉權剛才部長有講他說哎呀也不是各個政黨都有提案但是我相信這個提案會得到跨黨派委員的支持"},{"start":678.867,"end":699.437,"text":"這一點完全無庸置疑 我認為完全無庸置疑不管以現階段我們18歲的這個民眾他們所享有的權利之不對等或者是六七十年的憲法當時的整個的環境教育資訊的背景根本跟現在不可同日而語"},{"start":700.938,"end":715.245,"text":"當然18歲應該享有選舉權所以我想這一點也是希望不管是有關於就是判緩刑者 宣告緩刑者不應該去剝奪他的一個選舉登記權或者18歲的一個選舉權我認為以內政部來說應該都是去支持的 好不好"},{"start":726.951,"end":732.788,"text":"這點我想最後一點點時間部長就是我剛剛講在緩行的部分我剛剛已經講那麼多了"},{"start":737.898,"end":758.144,"text":"謝謝委員的指教有關18歲公民權的部分我想剛剛我已經表達過我也希望說大院能夠研議相關的法治程序那我們都會尊重那有關於緩刑的部分我也跟委員報告一下在中選會的報告裡面他們提到的是地方制度法但是我們今天討論的是有關選罷法所以有關選罷法的部分中選會的立場跟內政部是一樣的"},{"start":763.746,"end":787.441,"text":"在同樣的報告案裡面他有提到在緩刑期間是否限制其登記為候選人是仍有審慎斟酌餘地這是剛剛王委員在提問中選會的官員的時候他們所寫的書面報告那我們的書面報告也寫得非常的清楚就是本條文是貫徹青年參選的立法意旨"},{"start":787.941,"end":797.995,"text":"是否相符一再審酌那既然是有審酌跟斟酌的餘地的話呢我也會覺得說可能各個委員各個不同的面向我們還是有討論的餘地"},{"start":799.361,"end":818.432,"text":"醫院講說所謂青年參選我剛剛講以王家珍的案例他比如說他是助理費的話那當然可能涉及到這個貪污自罪條例但是後來他根本跟那個沒有關係連法官都認為他沒有任何的一毛錢進入他的口袋所以我的意思說今天就不應該有這樣的錯殺條款"},{"start":821.173,"end":831.002,"text":"我們在選政機關大概無法對個案來做任何的評析我擔心我用這個例子來做因為這個看起來好像是公平的但事實上未盡公平"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:51.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:53.995000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我請內政部劉部長，還有中選會王處長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:12:53.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:12:54.115000+08:00","text":"請部長、處長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:13:03.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:13:28.978000+08:00","text":"部長、處長，今天我們主要是聚焦在選罷法的修正，當然有不同的版本，其中有關於被判緩刑期間不得參選的部分，我們已經聽到民進黨林淑芬委員做出了他的提案說明，剛才我也有仔細聆聽幾位民進黨委員的發言，大概都是聚焦在18歲以下的選舉權，比較沒有去觸及到緩刑是不是要卡參選的問題。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:13:42.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:14:07.345000+08:00","text":"有關於這次修法，現在看起來包含三黨都有提案，我也很仔細看了一下，包含內政部、中選會所提出來的報告，以及劉部長提出來的報告，感覺上對這一部分，內政部還是有保留的。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:14:08.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:15:08.139000+08:00","text":"但是我有仔細看中選會的報告，其中的第四頁，也許可以請處長做更詳細的說明，也請劉部長來聽聽看，關於在判處緩刑期間到底可不可以登記為候選人，中選會提出了另外一個就是地方制度法，也就是說現在地方制度法的規定，第一個，你可能是在被判緩刑期間，你不得去登記參選，但是同時有一個狀況，比如以我個人來講，我現在是民意代表、立法委員，假使我被判緩刑處分，那我會不會因此而喪失我這個公職人員的資格呢？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:15:08.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:15:19.971000+08:00","text":"按照目前地方制度法的規定，請問一下，我被判緩刑的話，是不是就要被解除職權或職務？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:15:24.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:15:25.336000+08:00","text":"中選會可不可以先做答復？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:15:25.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:15:27.236000+08:00","text":"因為這是你們的報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡處長金誥","start":"2026-04-08T10:15:27.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:15:39.020000+08:00","text":"是，報告委員，現行條文於112年規定緩刑不得參選是為了端正罪刑的觀念，也就是說……","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:15:39.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:15:41.981000+08:00","text":"對，這個我知道，我現在問你的是，按照現行地方制度法……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"蔡處長金誥","start":"2026-04-08T10:15:42.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:06.222000+08:00","text":"如果依照地方制度法的規定，民選公職人員判處第七十九條第一項第四款規定的「前二款」，也就是第二款及第三款以外之罪，現行規定是如果未受緩刑宣告的話，是要解除其職權或職務的……對！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蔡處長金誥","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:06.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:08.823000+08:00","text":"換句話說，如果受緩刑宣告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:09.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:10.844000+08:00","text":"如果受緩刑宣告，就不必解除職務嘛！","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:10.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:11.844000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡處長金誥","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:11.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:15.867000+08:00","text":"這只是說……當然，緩刑宣告可不可以登記為候選人，這是一個政策的選擇啦！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:15.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:19.009000+08:00","text":"我知道、我知道，我剛才已經講得非常清楚了嘛！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:19.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:34.919000+08:00","text":"以現行地方制度法的規定，我現在是民選的公職人員，我被宣告緩刑，我會不會因此而必須被撤除職務？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:34.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:38.502000+08:00","text":"現在的地方制度法非常明確地規定不會嘛！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:39.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:39.983000+08:00","text":"對不對？不會！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:39.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:44.426000+08:00","text":"因為如果受緩刑宣告的話，並不會被解除職務。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:44.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:52.231000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝中選會的說明，因為你們的報告有提到現行地方制度法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:52.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:16:52.991000+08:00","text":"部長，我為什麼提到中選會的報告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:16:53.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:17:20.326000+08:00","text":"第一是因為三黨都有相關的提案，第二，中選會也提出現行地方制度法的規定，所以我覺得我們不可能一國兩制，也不可能一個民意代表或民選公職人員適用兩套制度。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:17:20.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:17:37.134000+08:00","text":"也就是說，他如果被判緩刑，就不能登記參選，但如果是現任的，現任被判緩刑，反而不用解除職務，這中間確實有扞格的地方以及邏輯不通的地方。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:17:38.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:18:06.202000+08:00","text":"另外，我也要特別提到，除了林淑芬委員剛才的提案說明講了很多之外，包含現任民進黨黨團幹事長的莊瑞雄委員，當初修法時他有一段說法，他說總統和副總統有很多特權，在參選的限制上比較嚴格，所以才會特別另立總統副總統選舉罷免法。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:18:08.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:18:11.946000+08:00","text":"否則就按照選罷法，大家一體適用就好了啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:18:13.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:18:31.241000+08:00","text":"他還說，選罷法規範下至村里長，上至直轄市長、縣市長、立委，這些公職人員沒有和總統、副總統相對應的權利，所以他覺得，如果統統比照總統副總統選舉罷免法的規定，這樣的立法理由是說不通的。","quality":0.713},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:18:38.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:18:52.299000+08:00","text":"莊瑞雄委員現在是幹事長，當然他的身分，他不適宜去提案，但我要講的就是，現在緩刑卡參選有諸多不合理之處，而這並不是單一黨派提出來的。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:18:57.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:19:18.224000+08:00","text":"我想特別提到一個案例，就是在之前立法委員選舉的時候，臺南市議員王家貞被以助理費的問題進行偵辦，可是後來法官發現他其實沒有把任何一毛錢放到自己的口袋。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:19:19.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:19:44.665000+08:00","text":"王家貞助理費的事情是因為他有兩個助理被法院強制處分，他為了要照顧助理的安家、生活，提高另外幾名助理的費用，把差額用來補貼這兩位助理，因為他們的薪水被強制執行了。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:19:45.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:19:57.436000+08:00","text":"所以法官也認為他其實沒有任何貪污的問題，因為他沒有拿任何一毛錢放進自己的口袋，但是法官因為辦了嘛，最後就還是判他緩刑。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:19:57.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:19:59.217000+08:00","text":"當時應該是用偽造文書罪，因為他沒有貪污，沒有辦法用詐領助理費來辦他。","quality":0.516},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:19:59.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:03.358000+08:00","text":"結果王家貞要參選立法委員的時候，就因為他當時其實可以選擇易科罰金，他去繳了罰金也沒事，可是他認為自己無罪，為什麼要去繳這個罰金！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:03.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:28.767000+08:00","text":"結果他就因為緩刑而被剝奪了參選權。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:28.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:29.127000+08:00","text":"這事實上是非常不合理的！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:29.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:30.547000+08:00","text":"大家看起來是說：對啊，如果你貪污、如果你有其他相關的違法情事，就不應該登記參選。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:30.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:20:32.048000+08:00","text":"但是王家貞就是一個例子，你以為他是貪污，結果他不是，他是照顧自己的助理，但是因為這樣卡了他的參選權。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:20:53.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:03.119000+08:00","text":"所以我要講的是，中選會會提出地方制度法的規定，代表他們已經發現這個問題了，我們不可能讓兩部法律是有扞格的。","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:03.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:18.811000+08:00","text":"同樣一個人，如果是在登記參選之前被判緩刑，他就不能參選，如果是在擔任民選公職人員期間被判緩刑，卻不會傷害他的任何職務，這中間是有扞格的。","quality":0.726},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:18.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:35.346000+08:00","text":"所以我希望內政部把我剛才所講的這些，不管是中選會的意見、各黨派的意見，或者是像王家貞這樣的案例，去做個通盤檢討，而不是在面對修法的時候拒人於千里之外。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:35.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:21:36.867000+08:00","text":"針對緩刑部分的修法，我希望內政部能夠從善如流。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:21:53.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:22:17.712000+08:00","text":"另外，剛才比較多委員著墨的是18歲以下的參政權，這個部分剛才部長一直說各黨派統統都支持，沒有錯，過去不管是修法或公投，各黨派統統都是支持的，這次也有幾位委員有提案。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:22:18.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:22:22.394000+08:00","text":"其實我要再講一下，以國民黨內部而言，確實有人跟我講：你們去做這樣的主張，可是年輕人不支持國民黨，對你們的選舉未必有利啊！","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:22:22.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:22:47.442000+08:00","text":"但是我覺得，18歲參政權的法制不應該涉及任何政黨或者任何一場選舉的利益。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:22:48.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:22:51.686000+08:00","text":"剛才大家都講了，以國內來說，其實在其他各個相關的法律裡面，18歲都已經擁有很多權利，現在看起來就只有投票是有限制的。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:04.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:04.815000+08:00","text":"那我要講，我個人為什麼強烈支持18歲可以選舉？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:04.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:07.176000+08:00","text":"因為我們這套憲法起碼是六、七十年前制定的，當時規定20歲才能夠有選舉權，但是大家想想看，那個時候還有多少文盲啊！","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:07.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:47.262000+08:00","text":"當時的資訊根本不普及，教育也不普及，如果時隔六、七十年，我們還抱著這部憲法規定的20歲才能夠去選舉，我覺得是滑天下之大稽，真的就是很脫節！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:47.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:47.322000+08:00","text":"跟時代太脫節了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:47.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:23:47.822000+08:00","text":"所以我個人完全支持18歲的選舉權。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:23:47.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:24:11.348000+08:00","text":"剛才部長有講，他說也不是各個政黨都有提案，但是我相信這個提案會得到跨黨派委員的支持，這一點完全無庸置疑！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:11.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:24:12.809000+08:00","text":"我認為完全無庸置疑。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:13.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:24:34.840000+08:00","text":"不管是以現階段18歲民眾所享有的權利並不對等，或者是六、七十年前制定憲法時整個環境、教育、資訊背景跟現在根本不可同日而語，18歲當然應該享有選舉權。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:37.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:24:45.225000+08:00","text":"不管是不應剝奪被宣告緩刑者的選舉登記權，或者是18歲的選舉權，我認為以內政部來說，應該都是要去支持的，好不好？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:24:57.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:01.765000+08:00","text":"最後一點點時間，請部長針對緩刑的部分表示意見。","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:25:01.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:02.767000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經講那麼多了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-08T10:25:07.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:12.700000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的指教，有關18歲公民權的部分，剛剛我已經表達過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:25:12.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:12.700000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-08T10:25:12.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:17.681000+08:00","text":"我也希望大院能夠研議相關的法制程序，我們都會尊重。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-08T10:25:18.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:25:50.997000+08:00","text":"有關於緩刑的部分，我也跟委員報告一下，在中選會的報告裡面提到的是地方制度法，但是我們今天討論的是有關選罷法，所以有關選罷法的部分，中選會的立場跟內政部是一樣的，在同樣的報告案裡面，它有提到在緩刑期間是否限制其登記為候選人，是仍有審慎斟酌餘地，這是剛剛王委員在提問中選會官員的時候，他們所寫的書面報告。","quality":0.993},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-08T10:25:51.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:26:00.304000+08:00","text":"我們的書面報告也寫得非常地清楚，就是本條文是貫徹清廉參選的立法意旨，是否相符，宜再審酌。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-08T10:26:00.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:26:07.975000+08:00","text":"既然是有審慎跟斟酌的餘地的話，我也會覺得可能各個委員各有不同的面向，我們還是有討論的餘地。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:26:09.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:26:28.412000+08:00","text":"因為講所謂清廉參選，我剛剛講以王家貞的案例，比如是助理費的話，當然可能涉及到貪污治罪條例，但是後來他根本跟那個沒有關係，連法官都認為沒有任何一毛錢進入他的口袋，所以我的意思是說，今天就不應該有這樣的錯殺條款，好不好？","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-04-08T10:26:31.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:26:34.796000+08:00","text":"我們選政機關大概無法對個案來做任何的評析，謝謝委員。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2026-04-08T10:26:35.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T10:26:40.982000+08:00","text":"但是我用這個例子來做說明，因為這個看起來好像是公平的，但事實上未盡公平。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:26:41.482000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:27:00.910571+08:00","text":"因為現在還在會議進行中，我們媒體採訪的區域是不是統一都在後方的媒體區，避免影響到會議的進行，不好意思，我可以等各位媒體先進腳步移動之後，我們再開始。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:27:01.210571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:27:07.496286+08:00","text":"也跟委員會報告，我們等李柏毅召委詢答後，休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:27:07.796286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:27:10.939143+08:00","text":"好，我們的會議就繼續進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T10:27:11.239143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T10:27:14.953429+08:00","text":"接下來我們請李貞秀委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}