{"error":false,"id":["168253"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168253,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168253","日期":"2026-04-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-35-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-08T11:12:21+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-08T11:25:30+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:09","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0daf453c19134c3251607b63c45e41aa0ce185cfc45202cc0552700a2677dd5fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"11:12:21 - 11:25:30","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":0.60471875,"end":2.9672187500000002,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":9.73409375,"end":10.61159375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":12.079718750000001,"end":15.505343750000002,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":16.19721875,"end":29.359718750000003,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":29.47784375,"end":33.494093750000005,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":33.96659375,"end":37.74659375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":38.30346875,"end":51.49971875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":51.97221875,"end":54.03096875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":54.385343750000004,"end":57.945968750000006,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":58.77284375000001,"end":61.59096875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":62.09721875,"end":64.18971875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":64.56096875,"end":75.31034375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":75.64784375,"end":102.74909375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":103.35659375,"end":108.50346875000001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":108.72284375000001,"end":111.32159375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":112.04721875000001,"end":112.92471875000001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":115.18596875,"end":125.58096875000001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":125.09159375,"end":125.53034375000001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":126.22221875000001,"end":137.03909375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":137.03909375,"end":139.60409375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":137.47784375,"end":137.81534375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":140.27909375000002,"end":141.40971875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":141.61221875,"end":152.66534375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":153.01971875,"end":156.69846875000002,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":158.18346875,"end":169.47284375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":170.16471875000002,"end":171.88596875000002,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":172.24034375000002,"end":172.25721875000002,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":172.25721875000002,"end":173.20221875000001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":173.40471875,"end":173.42159375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":173.42159375,"end":176.76284375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":177.08346875,"end":180.61034375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":180.93096875,"end":184.18784375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":184.25534375,"end":194.19471875000002,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":193.55346875,"end":193.67159375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":194.19471875000002,"end":194.85284375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":194.21159375000002,"end":194.70096875000002,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":195.66284375,"end":205.29846875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":206.00721875000002,"end":207.15471875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":207.79596875000001,"end":209.71971875000003,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":209.97284375,"end":244.73534375000003,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":229.37909375,"end":229.73346875000001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":244.80284375000002,"end":281.94471875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":282.68721875,"end":283.34534375000004,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":284.00346875,"end":289.18409375000005,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":289.79159375,"end":300.57471875000005,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":301.13159375000004,"end":302.92034375000003,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":303.03846875,"end":312.99471875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":313.46721875000003,"end":319.87971875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":320.38596875,"end":334.45971875000004,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":335.03346875,"end":337.49721875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":337.88534375,"end":352.29659375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":352.63409375000003,"end":360.10971875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":360.56534375,"end":365.27346875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":365.67846875000004,"end":374.36909375000005,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":373.66034375000004,"end":378.09846875000005,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":377.05221875,"end":410.24534375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":411.30846875000003,"end":412.18596875000003,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":413.08034375000005,"end":414.93659375000004,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":415.47659375,"end":427.59284375000004,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":428.20034375,"end":428.48721875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":429.09471875,"end":432.06471875000005,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":433.00971875000005,"end":435.23721875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":435.23721875,"end":435.28784375000004,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":436.24971875000006,"end":436.26659375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":436.26659375,"end":455.95971875000004,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":451.80846875000003,"end":456.09471875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":456.22971875,"end":458.27159375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":459.87471875000006,"end":489.50721875000005,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":480.98534375,"end":481.28909375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":489.50721875000005,"end":489.57471875000005,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":489.57471875000005,"end":490.58721875000003,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":491.09346875000006,"end":508.39034375000006,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":508.69409375000004,"end":529.3659687500001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":529.41659375,"end":543.79409375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":543.81096875,"end":545.31284375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":545.65034375,"end":548.6709687499999,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":548.87346875,"end":553.1259687500001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":553.24409375,"end":567.3684687500001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":568.00971875,"end":574.00034375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":574.0847187500001,"end":626.02596875,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":626.02596875,"end":626.6672187500001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":627.19034375,"end":629.0972187500001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":629.89034375,"end":634.51409375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":630.00846875,"end":631.1728437500001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":631.8815937500001,"end":632.1684687500001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":634.64909375,"end":640.1672187500001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":638.2434687500001,"end":638.69909375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":639.7959687499999,"end":639.9140937500001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":640.2178437499999,"end":642.95159375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":642.52971875,"end":643.2722187500001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":643.2553437500001,"end":646.59659375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":646.59659375,"end":649.8703437500001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":649.9040937500001,"end":649.9209687499999,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":649.93784375,"end":667.4540937500001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":666.0365937500001,"end":679.80659375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":680.3972187500001,"end":684.0928437500002,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":685.1728437500001,"end":685.79721875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":686.1684687500001,"end":689.4253437500001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":690.2690937500001,"end":697.22159375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":697.22159375,"end":712.00409375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":710.04659375,"end":714.21471875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":712.4597187500001,"end":736.7765937500001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":732.2709687500001,"end":733.46909375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":735.05534375,"end":743.9484687500001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":738.97034375,"end":740.4384687500001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":744.5222187500001,"end":752.79096875,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":753.07784375,"end":763.59096875,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":762.2240937500001,"end":765.7509687500001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":766.81409375,"end":786.08534375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":767.23596875,"end":768.94034375,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":784.56659375,"end":788.6840937500001,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":787.3003437500001,"end":788.5828437499999,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":789.78096875,"end":789.8484687499999,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":789.8484687499999,"end":789.89909375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":789.89909375,"end":789.91596875,"speaker_score":0.881},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"蔡局長明彥","start":789.91596875,"end":790.2534687500001,"speaker_score":0.964}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.626,"end":15.083,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩局長好 問問 早好 早我今天想focus在一個案子"},{"start":16.66,"end":37.15,"text":"徐春英的這個案子已經起訴那根據地檢署揭露的新聞稿跟起訴的附錄我這邊看第一個圖這個大概都從起訴書的附錄表摘出來的裡面確實是駭人聽聞包含涉犯的洗錢的金額接近三千萬元"},{"start":38.371,"end":57.526,"text":"包含呢自備三萬元兩張假的證明一張假的薪資轉單就可以貸款2697萬去買了一間房子自備三萬新台幣而已貸了2697萬那另外呢要透過三個政黨"},{"start":58.877,"end":84.673,"text":"去爭取中國人士擔任立委發展政治實質影響力另外協助中國人士取得台灣國籍不管是六改四或者一些戶籍放棄的簡化這都他接受的命令在裡面的對話內容都會看到那我這邊特別不去提哪幾個政黨我都認為被滲透的政黨也許是受害者看他的態度啦那另外呢中共的官員"},{"start":85.553,"end":112.329,"text":"用偽裝的偽造的理由入境長期在台灣發展組織所以這是一個不擇不扣也許起訴的條文是反滲透法但對國安的威脅它就是一個中共的網絡諜報組織我第一個先請教局長你們看徐春英這個起訴書的內容當然國安局掌握全國的情攻你們看到了什麼有沒有什麼該提醒國人的我想"},{"start":115.373,"end":138.935,"text":"因為這個案子在司法偵辦但是我早上也在跟媒體朋友說明我原先看到所有共諜案幾乎都是我們發動偵辦的那有事證之後再移送到 花漢鎮對 再移送到司法機關來進行偵處還有進入起訴的過程所以大概整個過程我們都知道案件的內容你不便透露我的意思是說像這樣的案子其實"},{"start":140.356,"end":169.194,"text":"讓人家很害怕他已經發展到國會裡面來了他已經發展到實質政治的組織甚至於把所有中國籍的配偶的組織網絡串起來坦白講這對這些中國籍的配偶是很不公平的他在監控他們看他們的言行有沒有符合母國的要求他們的祖國的要求可是對台灣就產生實質的民主的破口所以我說國安局在這個案例上"},{"start":170.219,"end":194.439,"text":"你看到是個案還是通案?我想個案值得重視那主要還是通案的部分大概中共對台的這些勤工的部署跟滲透它都是有系統性的、有計畫性的、有針對性的挑選特定的對象那在針對這特定對象去發展它背後的一個網絡那所以這部分這個個案顯示大概就是這樣的一個中共對台勤工的一個手段"},{"start":195.854,"end":204.685,"text":"陸委會的副主委梁文傑說大家應該想讀這一個起訴書但是因為起訴書目前地檢署公佈的是新聞稿、摘要跟一些附錄"},{"start":206.089,"end":232.757,"text":"我認為官局可以建議這一個陸委會在符合法律的要求部分人士去識別化全文的PDF檔應該要提供出來我覺得這個是如果看到那個內容他的對話跟中國的壽命還有他拿到錢去做什麼事情還有中國籍配偶怎麼對待中國籍配偶其實看到的是一個不只是長臂管轄而是實質對台灣的一個破壞"},{"start":233.857,"end":250.914,"text":"所以你看到這個對話內容大概是從他的腹錄摘出來的那我們看到他相關的人物像孫憲是他們的民革上海市委以及他算是統戰部的高階的人員另外楊文濤是中國民政部的其實也是官員"},{"start":251.815,"end":271.817,"text":"然後呢,鍾景明呢,是促進會的會長,這個是同案的被告他是一個兩岸婚姻協調促進會的會長,有一個組織名稱在那邊那李貞秀也在那邊提到,有關詢問接班可能性以及相關的事情,這都在起訴書裡面那另外有一個污點證人叫羅穎"},{"start":273.098,"end":300.117,"text":"那這個我不知道名字有沒有保護起來啦他是徐春英的友人所以我們看到這相關的網絡呢我們就有一個體會我們看下一張其實我個人認為被共諜滲透的其實基本上我們先看他是受害者當年的蔣介石旁邊的共諜何其多連他的打字員秘書那個Holiday英國的一個作者寫的一個他被滲透的其實是非常嚴重"},{"start":301.218,"end":319.704,"text":"每一次他要幹嘛 中共都會先知道所以蔣介石可以說是中共滲透的受害者只是他採取 那我們怎麼判斷他是不是受害者呢他們甘願被他滲透 他沒有他會反制 他會逮捕 甚至於槍決可以耶所以做得過頭了變白色恐怖 那是另外一件事情也就是說"},{"start":320.464,"end":337.25,"text":"被共諜滲透不管是歷史上的蔣介石或者國內的主要政治組織或者政府機關基本上只要你不是甘願被他滲透的都可以把它定義為受害者我認為任何政黨政治人物都一樣但是你要有作為我被滲透了"},{"start":338.75,"end":359.195,"text":"檢舉移送法辦建立國安法制去把他逮捕出來你對共諜的滲透深惡痛絕那這個是受害者如果被滲透了還去阻撓國安法律的嚴謹或者被滲透了還幫被抓到的人講話那這是不是受害者就未必了會進到第二種類別"},{"start":360.615,"end":383.693,"text":"不知情卻動手協助共諜滲透的這有點像在地協力者但是如果知情還協助共諜滲透的那你根本就是共諜本人我不知道局長對我這樣的分類看法有什麼想法尊重委員有一個邏輯在尊重委員的一個分類不要隨便說這個誰誰誰被滲透了他就是共諜不一定因為從歷史上從蔣介石一直到現在"},{"start":385.134,"end":409.587,"text":"被滲透當然是敵人想要攻破的碉堡重要的是被滲透人士或組織的態度如果你被滲透了你認為應該強化應該隔絕那大概是受害者如果被滲透了還掩護他你可能是不知情的協作者如果你被滲透了發現你還幫他滲透幫他發展幫他講話維護那這可能就共諜本人了所以在這一個徐春英的案件我最後要問的一個邏輯是能夠"},{"start":413.214,"end":434.686,"text":"成就他的工作的就他滲透發展組織受上海那邊相關的命令甚至於地下會對兩千大概快三千萬這些過程當中能夠成就他的成績工作成績的人或政黨算是什麼角色有沒有在偵辦中"},{"start":436.371,"end":454.089,"text":"對,我想個案我不適合公開的討論,包括剛剛在機密報告當中也有委員提出一些共諜案,那我在那種場合比較會多做一些說明。那因為這案子已經在偵辦過程當中,那大概他都還是有一個網絡相關的案官關係人。那我換個方式問,徐孫英的起訴書是不是案件的全貌?"},{"start":460.469,"end":489.108,"text":"我不評論檢察官公布的一個狀況這一個部分我覺得這三種分類協力者典型的還繼續協力當然有法律問題如果是協助者知情而且協助的而且甚至於位居廟堂或者是位居高院不管什麼政黨我覺得該辦就要辦甚至該揭露就要揭露這個其實是對2300萬人的生存是很重要的一件事情我最後請教一下"},{"start":490.009,"end":508.111,"text":"在台灣的國防預算或國防特別預算或對美軍購,我推整了大概近半年來,也不到半年,近四、五個月,中國不管朱鳳蓮、張小剛、張晗,甚至習近平本人、毛寧等等,他針對的發言,其實不意外啦。"},{"start":508.832,"end":526.918,"text":"中共當然反對台灣國防預算反對國防特別預算反對對美軍購每次都講一堆啦他不講他自己的國防預算每年增加7%到8兆他也不講他每天用軍事威脅台灣他卻指著台灣說你要武裝自己這裡不對那裡不對就是"},{"start":527.518,"end":543.15,"text":"流氓在恐嚇別人刀槍都握在手上然後防衛自己的人拿起盾牌說你武裝自己呢什麼以武謀獨啊什麼的他的反對態度其實非常明確不意外也不是新聞我要請教局長的"},{"start":544.031,"end":560.722,"text":"就你們目前掌握中共如何遂行他的反對他反對嘛他反對台灣最好你都沒有國防預算嘛國防特別預算越少越好最好沒有嘛對美軍共每次都反對嘛還制裁要對台軍售的那些企業或者是實體好那我現在請問中國從口頭的反對"},{"start":568.067,"end":588.352,"text":"到實質運作讓他這樣的意志可以遂行他有沒有具體的執行的策略有有有這部分剛如美林委員也有在提問那我大概的說明就是說中共對台的政策大概一般都是合戰兩手一方面透過軍事的施壓來說造兵戰的氣氛讓台灣民眾心裡感到恐慌"},{"start":588.792,"end":608.551,"text":"但另外一方面他要透過一些兩岸的一些交流交往來推宣他所謂中國主導的兩岸和平以及這個中國主導兩岸和平所外溢出來的所謂的和平紅利來進行一些撕毀那用這個來鬆動那台灣對於軍購案的支持那另外也利用這樣子所謂兩岸存在這種合同的"},{"start":609.271,"end":628.89,"text":"聲音來弱化美國對於台議題的介入跟立場所以它有兩個目的一個是分化台灣內部那一個是分化台美的合作那這部分我想我們現在又在討論這個國防預算的部分那中共這方面的操作手法這一陣子看起來有比較加強一些操作那你們有沒有應對的方法"},{"start":630.209,"end":646.358,"text":"你讓情報掌握是一件事情嘛那你也講得很客氣嘛其實他們的反對在台灣他遂行的方法很多種啦民眾也都看得很清楚那如果踩到法律的紅線那是歸法律主義但在政治上的運作有沒有應對的方式"},{"start":646.778,"end":671.483,"text":"對 基本上我們特別在揭露的是中共對台的統戰的策略跟手法那剛剛在跟委員說明的也是把重點放在這個部分那來讓大家知道說我們可能國人在進行兩岸交流過程當中可能要注意到中共的這些推動交流過程背後還是有一個政治上跟統戰上的一個我最後請問你好 蒙哥馬利來台灣參加那個陳冠廷的研討會嘛"},{"start":672.563,"end":689.255,"text":"那他有提到如果持續阻擋這樣的國防預算不管特別預算或國防預算對川普政府來講他只看結果他可能會有一個collective就是他會有一個綜合性的打擊等於對台灣的處罰你自己都不重視自己的安全了"},{"start":690.322,"end":709.149,"text":"那你展現態度是這樣子那對川普政府來講他要做取捨或者做所謂的懲罰你們掌握的情報是什麼對這部分主要是我們在夜報過程當中有提到美國現在強調的還是以實力來追求和平所以也不斷的在鼓勵各個區域我們加強國防的投資那建構起"},{"start":710.71,"end":738.533,"text":"台灣國內持續被杯葛那你假如說台灣自己在這個部分比較沒有一些積極的作為的話那你當然就會弱化了人家願意來支持台灣的一個基本的立場那再邀請台灣參加雙多邊的一些軍事或安保合作議題的話也比較會質疑台灣在自己努力所投資的這個國防預算的部分那可能沒有達到大家的期待只會造成區域聯防會有一個破口變成安全網絡的一個破口這個等於是對國家全體人民的懲罰"},{"start":739.293,"end":765.589,"text":"那對於阻撓的實體它本身會做什麼樣的動作嗎?有沒有消息?這個部分基本上川普政府還是不斷地強調對台軍售是他們一貫的一個政策那我應該也注意到在去年年底所宣布的那個對台軍售案應該是史上最高後續還會有所以美方是一直希望台灣在這個部分能夠加強對自己的國防投資你提到後續還會有是before或after"},{"start":766.98,"end":787.749,"text":"對啊 那時間上當然就看台美溝通的結果跟後續的一個規劃那我剛剛也跟其他委員在做說明就今年來講 包括日本國防預算增加3.7% 韓國增加7% 菲律賓增加14%那大概都有呼應到川普政府這種以實力追求和平的一個基本的調適時間關係 我們其他部分我們可以私下交流好 謝謝局長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:12:22.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:12:30.757000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩請局長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:12:31.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:12:33.380000+08:00","text":"王委員早。早。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:12:34.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:13:15.523000+08:00","text":"我今天想focus在一個案子，徐春鶯的案子已經起訴，根據地檢署揭露的新聞稿跟起訴的附錄，請看我的第一個圖，這個大概都是從起訴書的附錄表摘出來的，裡面確實是駭人聽聞，包含涉犯的洗錢金額接近3,000萬元，包含自備3萬元、2張假的證明、1張假的薪資轉單，就可以貸款2,697萬去買一間房子，自備3萬新臺幣而已，貸了2,697萬。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:13:16.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:13:36.067000+08:00","text":"另外，要透過3個政黨去爭取中國人士擔任立委，發展政治實質影響力；還有協助中國人士取得臺灣國籍，不管是6改4或者一些戶籍放棄的簡化，這都是他接受的命令，在裡面的對話內容都可以看到。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:13:36.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:13:42.731000+08:00","text":"我這邊特別不去提哪幾個政黨，我都認為被滲透的政黨也許是受害者，看它的態度。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:13:43.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:13:51.796000+08:00","text":"另外，中共的官員用偽裝的、偽造的理由、路徑，長期在臺灣發展組織。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:13:51.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:14:02.042000+08:00","text":"所以這是一個不折不扣……也許起訴的條文是反滲透法，但對國安的威脅就是一個中共的網絡、諜報組織。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:14:02.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:14:10.987000+08:00","text":"我第一個先請教局長，你們看徐春鶯的起訴書內容，當然國安局掌握全國的情工，請問你們看到了什麼？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:14:10.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:14:12.268000+08:00","text":"有沒有什麼該提醒國人的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:14:16.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:14:25.782000+08:00","text":"委員，這案子在司法偵辦中，我早上也有跟媒體朋友說明，委員現在看到的所有共諜案幾乎都是我們發動偵辦的，有事證之後再移送到司法……","quality":0.807},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:14:25.782000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:14:28.164000+08:00","text":"包含這個？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:14:28.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:14:36.372000+08:00","text":"對，再移送到司法機關來進行偵處、進入起訴的過程，所以大概整個過程我們都知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:14:36.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:15:12.600000+08:00","text":"案件的內容你不便透露，我的意思是說，類似這樣的案子其實讓人家很害怕，已經發展到國會裡面來了，已經發展到實質的政治組織，甚至於把所有中國籍配偶的組織、網絡串起來，坦白講，這對這些中國籍配偶是很不公平的，他在監控他們，看他們的言行有沒有符合母國的要求、他們祖國的要求，可是對臺灣就產生實質的民主破口，所以我說國安局在這個案例上看到的是個案還是通案？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:15:13.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:15:35.239000+08:00","text":"我想個案值得重視，主要還是通案的部分，中共對臺情工的部署跟滲透都是有系統性的、有計畫性的、有針對性的，挑選特定的對象，再針對這些特定對象去發展背後的網絡，所以這個個案顯示的大概就是中共對臺情工的手法。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:15:36.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:16:13.757000+08:00","text":"陸委會副主委梁文傑說大家應該詳讀這份起訴書，但是因為起訴書目前地檢署公布的是新聞稿摘要跟一些附錄，我認為國安局可以建議陸委會，在符合法律的要求下，部分人士去識別化，全文的PDF檔應該要提供出來，你如果看到那個內容，裡面有他們的對話跟中國的授命、他拿到錢去做什麼事情，還有中國籍配偶怎麼對待中國籍配偶，其實看到的不只是長臂管轄，而是一個實質對臺灣的破壞。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:16:15.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:16:17.600000+08:00","text":"我投影片的這些對話內容大概就是從起訴書的附錄摘出來的。","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:16:18.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:16:57.541000+08:00","text":"至於裡面的相關人物，像孫憲是他們的民革上海市委，他算是統戰部的高階人員；楊文濤是中國民政部的，其實也是官員；鍾錦明是促進會的會長，這個是同案的被告，他是兩岸婚姻協調促進會會長，有一個組織名稱在那邊；李貞秀也在那邊被提到有關詢問接班可能性以及相關的事情，這些都在起訴書裡面；另外有一個污點證人叫羅穎，我不知道名字有沒有保護起來，他是徐春鶯的友人。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:16:58.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:17:31.761000+08:00","text":"在看到相關的網絡後，我們就有一個體會，請看下一張，其實我個人認為被共諜滲透的基本上是受害者，當年蔣介石旁邊的共諜何其多，連他的打字員、秘書都是，這是英國的一個作者Holiday寫的，他被滲透得其實是非常嚴重，每一次他要幹嘛中共都先知道，所以蔣介石可以說是中共滲透的受害者，只是他採取……我們怎麼判斷他是不是受害者呢？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:17:32.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:17:33.341000+08:00","text":"他有沒有甘願被滲透？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:17:33.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:17:40.224000+08:00","text":"他沒有，他會反制，他會逮捕，甚至於槍決也可以，做得過頭了變白色恐怖，那是另外一件事情。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:17:40.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:18:07.872000+08:00","text":"也就是說，被共諜滲透，不管是歷史上的蔣介石或者國內的主要政治組織、政府機關，基本上，只要不是甘願被滲透的，都可以定義為受害者，我認為任何政黨、政治人物都一樣，但是你要有作為，被滲透了，檢舉、移送法辦、建立國安法制去把他逮捕出來，你對共諜的滲透深惡痛絕，這就是受害者。","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:18:08.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:18:31.603000+08:00","text":"如果被滲透了，還去阻撓國安法律的嚴謹，或者被滲透了，還幫被抓到的人講話，這個人是不是受害者就未必了，會進到第二種類別，不知情卻動手協助共諜滲透的，這有點像在地協力者了，但是如果知情還協助共諜滲透的，那根本就是共諜本人。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:18:32.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:18:34.905000+08:00","text":"我不知道局長對我這樣的分類、看法有什麼想法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:18:35.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:18:38.888000+08:00","text":"我尊重，委員有一個邏輯在，我尊重委員的分類跟觀察。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:18:38.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:07.186000+08:00","text":"我們不要隨便說誰誰誰被滲透了就是共諜，不一定，因為從歷史上，從蔣介石一直到現在，被滲透當然是敵人想要攻破的碉堡，重要的是被滲透人士或組織的態度，如果你被滲透了，你認為應該強化、應該隔絕，那當然是受害者；如果被滲透了，還掩護他，你可能是不知情的協作者；如果被滲透了，發現後你還幫他滲透、幫他發展、幫他講話與維護，這可能就是共諜本人了。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:07.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:34.785000+08:00","text":"所以對於徐春鶯的案件，我最後要問的一個邏輯是，能夠成就他的工作，就是他滲透、發展組織、受上海那邊相關的命令，甚至於地下匯兌大概快3,000萬，在這些過程當中，能夠成就他工作成績的人或是政黨算是什麼角色？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:35.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:35.665000+08:00","text":"有沒有在偵辦中？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:38.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:46.240000+08:00","text":"個案我不適合公開地討論，包括剛剛在機密報告當中，也有委員提出一些共諜案，我在那種場合比較會多做一些說明。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:46.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:52.386000+08:00","text":"因為這個案子已經在偵辦過程當中，大概都還是有一個網絡，有相關的案關關係人，至於相關的案關關係人到底有沒有涉法，要由檢察機關來……","quality":0.534},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:52.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:55.069000+08:00","text":"那我換個方式問，徐春鶯的起訴書是不是案件的全貌？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:20:01.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:20:05.792000+08:00","text":"我不評論檢察官公布的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:20:05.792000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:20:06.792000+08:00","text":"OK，好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:20:05.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:20:28.427000+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，我覺得這3種分類，協力者點醒了還繼續協力，當然有法律問題；如果是協助者，知情而且協助的，甚至於位居廟堂或者是位居高位，不管什麼政黨，我覺得該辦就要辦，甚至於該揭露就要揭露，這個對2,300萬人的生存其實是很重要的一件事情。對。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:20:29.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:21:23.250000+08:00","text":"最後請教一下，有關臺灣的國防預算或國防特別預算或對美軍購，我彙整了大概近半年來，也不到半年，近四、五個月，中國不管朱鳳蓮、張曉剛、張晗，甚至於習近平本人、毛寧等等的發言，其實不意外，中共當然反對臺灣的國防預算，反對國防特別預算，反對對美軍購，每次都講一堆，他不講他自己的國防預算每年增加7%、達到8兆，他也不講他每天用軍事威脅臺灣，卻指著臺灣說你武裝自己這裡不對、那裡不對，就是流氓在恐嚇別人時刀槍都握在手上，然後防衛自己的人拿起盾牌時，卻被說是武裝自己、以武謀獨什麼的，他的反對態度其實非常明確，不意外，也不是新聞。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:21:23.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:21:30.074000+08:00","text":"我要請教局長的是，就你們目前的掌握，中共如何遂行他的反對？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:21:30.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:21:41.262000+08:00","text":"他反對，他反對臺灣……最好你都沒有國防預算，國防特別預算越少越好，最好沒有，對美軍購每次也都反對，還制裁要對臺軍售的那些企業或者是實體。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:21:41.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:21:54.728000+08:00","text":"我現在請問，中國從口頭的反對到實質運作，讓他這樣的意志可以遂行，有沒有具體的執行策略？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:21:55.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:22:33.715000+08:00","text":"有，這部分剛剛羅美玲委員也有提問，我大概的說明就是，中共對臺的政策一般都是和戰兩手，一方面透過軍事的施壓來塑造兵戰的氣氛，讓臺灣民眾心裡感到恐慌；另外一方面又透過兩岸的一些交流、交往來推宣所謂中國主導的兩岸和平，以及中國主導兩岸和平所外溢出來的所謂和平紅利，來進行一些施惠，用這個來鬆動臺灣對於軍購案的支持；另外，也利用兩岸存在的這種和統的聲音來弱化美國對於臺海議題的介入跟立場。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:22:33.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:22:47.268000+08:00","text":"所以他有兩個目的，一個是分化臺灣內部，一個是分化臺美的合作，這個部分，我們現在又在討論國防預算的部分，中共這方面的操作手法在這一陣子看起來是有比較加強一些操作。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:22:48.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:22:49.870000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有應對的方法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:22:51.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:23:07.338000+08:00","text":"你知道情報掌握是一件事情，你也講得很客氣，其實他們的反對在臺灣遂行的方法有很多種，民眾也都看得很清楚，如果踩到法律的紅線，那就歸法律處理，但是在政治上的運作，有沒有應對的方式？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:23:07.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:23:26.742000+08:00","text":"基本上，我們特別揭露的是中共對臺的統戰策略跟手法，剛剛跟委員說明的也是把重點放在這個部分，讓大家知道我們國人在進行兩岸交流的過程當中，可能要注意到中共推動交流過程的背後還是有一個政治上跟統戰上的目的。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:23:27.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:23:57.904000+08:00","text":"我最後請問你，蒙哥馬利來臺灣參加陳冠廷舉辦的研討會，他有提到，如果持續阻擋這樣的國防預算，不管特別預算或國防預算，對川普政府來講，他只看結果，他可能會有一個collective、綜合性的打擊，等於對臺灣的處罰，你自己都不重視自己的安全了，你展現的態度是這樣，對川普政府來講，他要做取捨或者做所謂的懲罰，你們掌握的情報是如何？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:23:58.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:10.129000+08:00","text":"對，這個部分我們在業報當中有提到，美國現在強調的還是以實力來追求和平，所以也不斷在鼓勵各個區域友盟加強國防的投資，建構起包括國防供應鏈的合作。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:11.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:13.571000+08:00","text":"臺灣國內持續被杯葛、被弱化，會發生什麼事？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:14.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:36.250000+08:00","text":"對，假如臺灣自己在這個部分比較沒有一些積極作為的話，當然就會弱化了人家願意來支持臺灣的基本立場，在邀請臺灣參加雙、多邊的軍事或安保合作議題的話，也比較會質疑臺灣自己努力所投資的國防預算部分可能沒有達到大家的期待，所以會造成區域聯防會有一個破口跟漏洞。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:36.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:39.533000+08:00","text":"變成安全網絡的一個破口，這個等於是對國家全體人民的懲罰。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:39.533000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:40.934000+08:00","text":"對，這個要注意啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:40.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:44.336000+08:00","text":"對於阻撓的實體，他本身會做什麼樣的動作嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:44.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:44.796000+08:00","text":"有沒有消息？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:46.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:51.760000+08:00","text":"基本上川普政府還是不斷強調，對臺軍售是他們一貫的政策。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:52.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:03.487000+08:00","text":"委員應該也注意到，在去年年底所宣布的對臺軍售案應該是史上最高，後續還會有，所以美方是一直希望臺灣在這個部分能夠加強對自己的國防投資，而且這個過程……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:03.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:06.569000+08:00","text":"你提到後續還會有是before或after那個會面？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:07.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:27.208000+08:00","text":"對，時間上當然就看臺美溝通的結果跟後續的規劃，我剛剛也跟其他委員在做說明，就今年來講，包括日本國防預算增加3.7%、韓國增加7%、菲律賓增加14%，大概都有呼應到川普政府這種以實力追求和平的基本調性。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:27.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:28.529000+08:00","text":"時間關係，其他部分我們可以私底下再交流。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:28.529000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:29.529000+08:00","text":"OK，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:28.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:28.749000+08:00","text":"謝謝局長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:29.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:31.249000+08:00","text":"謝謝王定宇委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（王委員定宇代）","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:31.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:36.977571+08:00","text":"接下來進行詢答的是陳冠廷委員的公開部分。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}