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所以呢本席今天要求你立刻要提供給我相關的資料你也同樣是不可以給我是嗎今天在這個質詢台上面我接下來我還有另外一個所值"},{"start":249.879,"end":256.123,"text":"我可以提供但是我按照目前的規定我必須要經過行政院總之我現在曉得了就是主委您今天的這樣的發言就讓我認為你就是一個不能夠自己做主"},{"start":265.908,"end":283.267,"text":"只能够事事听从上面长官的命令然后等候上级指示的木偶人本席已经了解您的态度了而且本席根本压根认为你就是不敢告诉我们现在到底这个十二所顶尖国立大学里面到底拿了多少的专题研究计划"},{"start":284.108,"end":309.394,"text":"这里面是不是可能有特别图立某些大学本席已经听到非常多来自于学界的教授们大家非常惊讶这两年通过的比率非常之低但是本席有看到发现你们的研究补助经费基本上并没有缩减那就代表说非常有可能这些计划经费是图立了哪些学校"},{"start":311.334,"end":331.383,"text":"如果没有的话你就应该要公开的迅速的提供给本席否则本席基本上我就会有这样的疑虑我觉得这些就是你现在国科会的问题你事事都要请示这个行政院卓荣泰你根本不敢自己去做决定好但接下来本席要讲的就是说"},{"start":332.703,"end":355.985,"text":"大家一直在质疑啊就一直在在说现在台湾的基础科学研究经费基本上是远比韩国日本还有乃至于像是瑞士美国的这些国家有明显的不足那么吴主委您在去年二月的时候你也很感慨的说台湾的投入科研数十年却没有"},{"start":356.365,"end":357.486,"text":"本席基本上是暗蓝认同的"},{"start":381.718,"end":395.607,"text":"所谓巧妇难为无名之炊今天台湾的大学虽然说不是说没有经费做研究但是普遍的问题就是我们的研究经费不足特别是基础科学研究的经费"},{"start":397.435,"end":417.43,"text":"本心很在意的就说我们台湾我们政府是不是真正提供了一个足够可以让基础研究长成为世界级影响力的肥沃的土壤我们来看看的根据你国科会在去年10月底所公布的113年的全国科技动态调查"},{"start":418.87,"end":432.875,"text":"2024年台湾的公司部门的研发经费突破了一兆台币这个数字看起来很亮眼可是我们再看看如果把一兆的经费你拆开成为几个部分"},{"start":434.366,"end":457.304,"text":"我们发现几乎是两个世界这一兆经费里面14%是来自于政府部门还有公部门的投资其他的16%基本上就是民间私部门企业的技术开发而且这些民间企业的这个科研经费主要是投资在半导体的制程的精进以及与优化"},{"start":457.964,"end":479.797,"text":"那么对于这个台湾的基础投资对于台湾的基础研究的经费整体而言他投资的比例大概只有7.7%大概是在800大概就809亿左右所以呢事实上就是整个台湾的这个研究经费他挹注在基础科学研究的"},{"start":480.177,"end":501.412,"text":"项目是非常非常低的在整个一兆的科研经费里面只有800多800亿左右是投入在科学研究经费里面那么所以呢我们发现就看起来台湾好像是个研发大国但是实际上更像是个应用科技的巨人基础科学研究的侏儒所以我想请教"},{"start":503.191,"end":524.303,"text":"主委就是我國115年度的科研經費大概是1600億左右請問這1600億的科研預算當中有多少的比例是投資在基礎研究經費你說整個1600億裡面多少的比例這個數字我等一下請同仁查一下基礎研究"},{"start":530.84,"end":539.247,"text":"國科會的部分我們114年是408億只有408億114年去年今年我們成長一點本來要更高的一點是多少一點"},{"start":548.395,"end":573.472,"text":"427億就是因為我們財政收支方法使得我們今年的預算被迫要從1800億降到1600億所以剛剛委員提的議題其實就是我們預算的問題主委你不要再牽拖我們從去年到今年今年當然預算還沒有審去年的預算我們有像你們國會會任何一毛錢的預算嗎今年就是還沒有審"},{"start":574.724,"end":579.046,"text":"所以今年还没有审我现在讲是前面的事情你不要再讲说是今年的预算今年的预算确实是没有审但是你们还是可以去执行而且按照预算法的规定新增的没有办法你超出的怎么可以执行呢我们新增的计划我们来看看啦"},{"start":592.954,"end":604.582,"text":"你们新兴计划我们现在立法院已经通过了30几项计划委员如果支持基础研究就赶快通过预算我们明年还要再增加好了了解了所以主委您的意思说现在所有基础研究经费全部都是靠新兴计划吗你们在年度的预算里面你们没走吗既有的计划"},{"start":619.091,"end":626.835,"text":"你们年度的预算计划本来就有而这个计划你们就可以去执行所以你今天执行不能超出原来的额度啊执行不能超出原来额度啊"},{"start":631.459,"end":637.062,"text":"所以你要新興計畫我們也通過新興計畫問題是卓榮泰他有給嗎他不給我們現在的問題是說立法院通過新興計畫可是卓榮泰他不發給你是矛盾的你要支持基礎研究就要通過我們的預算好不好就這樣子盡快我現在要求你們要增編要增編"},{"start":656.857,"end":658.118,"text":"主委您今天這樣子嗆立法委員我覺得是非常不對的"},{"start":677.919,"end":691.289,"text":"我們所要求的所有資料都不給你還有什麼臉好意思在這裡講而且你根本就是亂扯我們去年的一百一十四年度的一百一十五年度的行政會的經費來來來兩邊先停一下休息一下"},{"start":699.794,"end":709.109,"text":"五秒五秒,兩邊平心靜氣我們討論事情,也希望大家有一方面講基礎研究重要對,不好意思我正在發言"},{"start":714.073,"end":730.11,"text":"我想諮詢議題有問有答是固然重要但是我們希望平心靜氣那不要用激烈的言語過當的態度來面對那也希望兩邊呢能夠繼續平心靜氣的來討論我們繼續"},{"start":735.694,"end":761.355,"text":"好 我現在要講的就是我也不要再浪費多的時間我就請主委你要提供給我115年度科研經費裡面大概有多少的比例是投資在基礎科學研究有多少比例是在應用科技及技術發展的部分金額比例是多少我希望國科會兩週之內就給本席一個報告請問我們主席是不是可以同意要求國科會要提供這份報告同時給我們所有的委員參考"},{"start":764.295,"end":783.265,"text":"好 主委如果在剛剛所提到的這個無關於任何機密的情況之下那本來就應該擁有相關的資料應該兩個禮拜可以完成吧沒問題可以嗎沒問題啊好 會後麻煩再提供給所有的委員一份好不好好 包含給我翁小林委員翁小林委員然後另外我最後要講一句話"},{"start":784.588,"end":807.739,"text":"因為曾經得到過諾貝爾生理醫學獎的日本東京工業大學教授大禹兩點曾經說過要想讓科學有利於社會可能需要一百年這樣的名言本席希望你國科會能夠更重視台灣基礎科學的研究該通過計畫就要通過該病例就要編列不要在那裡東扯西扯好 以上好 我們謝謝翁委員巡打"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:06.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:10.282000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，首先有請國科會吳主委。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席（羅委員廷瑋）","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:13.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:13.945000+08:00","text":"有請主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:13.945000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:16.776500+08:00","text":"翁委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:16.776500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:19.608000+08:00","text":"主委好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:19.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:33.494000+08:00","text":"首先我想要請問您的就是有關國內大學每年得到國科會研究計畫的補助經費金額，還有國科會各個處室各年度核准金額的比例等等，這些統計數據是機密嗎？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:33.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:34.895000+08:00","text":"像這些統計數據是機密嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:42.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:44.672000+08:00","text":"我們網站上應該都會有這些基本資料。對嘛！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:45.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:48.053000+08:00","text":"它應該都是公開的資料，對不對？是。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:49.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:18.265000+08:00","text":"本席在3月17號就向國科會索資，希望國科會能夠提供近5年來國內十二所頂尖大學包含臺、清、交等學校裡面每年得到國科會專題計畫補助經費的統計數據，可是為什麼到了今天（4月8號），過了二十幾天，本席還是沒有得到你們國科會給我的相關的資訊？","quality":0.604},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:18.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:20.726000+08:00","text":"主委知道這件事情嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:20.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:20.966000+08:00","text":"不知道？欸……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:23.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:31.353000+08:00","text":"所以代表說你們下面的同仁是有瞞上的情況嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:31.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:31.794000+08:00","text":"應該不是吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:32.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:46.868000+08:00","text":"應該是行政院……我也不是要甩鍋給行政院，就是說我們回復委員的這些資料現在是規定必須要經過行政院。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:49.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:54.871000+08:00","text":"所以您剛剛一開始說你不知道我有索資，然後現在你又說是……現在我要的這份資料是在哪裡？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:57.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:59.670000+08:00","text":"不是在國科會，所以是在哪裡？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:59.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:00.951000+08:00","text":"我們已經報給行政院了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:01.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:07.797000+08:00","text":"報給行政院，所以剛剛主委還在講說……這個資料是公開的資料，它不涉及機密吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:09.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:22.051000+08:00","text":"連這樣子的一個索資，國科會主委都還要上陳行政院、請行政院院長核示，這不是很可笑的一件事情嗎？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:22.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:29.693000+08:00","text":"這個真的讓我都質疑，吳主委您還能夠有一點獨立思考判斷能力嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:29.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:33.875000+08:00","text":"您現在是不是事事都要請示院長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:33.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:37.115000+08:00","text":"要院長核准了之後你才能夠去做決策，是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:41.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:42.736000+08:00","text":"有些規定我必須要遵守。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:43.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:43.737000+08:00","text":"這是什麼規定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:45.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:46.340000+08:00","text":"是訂在哪個地方？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:49.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:51.364000+08:00","text":"行政院院長的一句話就是規定喔？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:51.364000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:52.718000+08:00","text":"長官的話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:52.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:53.439000+08:00","text":"它就是命令喔？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:54.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:56.761000+08:00","text":"所以他對於你在行政指導的影響很強嘛？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:57.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:06.308000+08:00","text":"作為一個國科會的主委，你竟然連一點這樣子獨立判斷的能力都沒有，真的讓本席感到非常、非常的驚訝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:06.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:25.997000+08:00","text":"吳主委，您曾經是我非常尊敬的一個清華大學副校長，結果竟然連本席所要求的這樣一個根本不算是機密的公開索資，都還可以壓在你們國科會，然後上陳行政院，然後行政院院長他不同意，你就一直壓在那邊？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:27.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:33.304000+08:00","text":"對於現在國科會多少的相關的辦法、政策，我就懷疑說主委你根本沒有決策的能力啊！","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:34.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:43.108000+08:00","text":"我有，在國科會主政的項目上，當然是我要負責啊，可是行政倫理我一定要遵守。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:44.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:53.371000+08:00","text":"喔，所以本席今天要求你要立刻提供給我相關的資料，你也同樣不可以給我，是嗎？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:53.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:56.632000+08:00","text":"今天在這個質詢台上，我接下來還會有另外一個索資。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:57.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:01.781000+08:00","text":"我可以提供，但是按照目前的規定，我必須要經過行政院。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:01.781000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:02.781000+08:00","text":"行政院不是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:01.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:20.055000+08:00","text":"總之，我現在曉得了，主委您今天這樣的發言就讓我認為你就是一個不能夠自己作主、只能夠事事聽從上面長官命令然後等候上級指示的一個木偶人。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:20.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:57.374000+08:00","text":"好，本席已經了解您的態度了，而且本席壓根認為你就是不敢告訴我們現在這個十二所頂尖國立大學裡面到底拿了多少的專題研究計畫、這裡面是不是可能有特別圖利某些大學，本席已經聽到非常多聲音，來自於學界的教授們大家都非常驚訝這一、兩年通過的比率非常之低，但是本席有發現你們的研究補助經費基本上並沒有縮減，那就代表說這些經費非常有可能是圖利了哪些學校、圖利了特定學校。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:57.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:59.334000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:59.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:44:17.402000+08:00","text":"如果沒有的話，你就應該要公開、迅速地提供給本席，否則本席基本上就會有這樣的疑慮，我覺得這些就是你國科會現在的問題，你事事都要請示行政院卓榮泰，你根本不敢自己去做決定。","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:44:17.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:44:43.965000+08:00","text":"好，接下來本席要講的是，大家一直在質疑、一直說現在臺灣的基礎科學研究經費基本上是遠比韓國、日本乃至於像是瑞士、美國等國家明顯不足，吳主委您在去年2月的時候也很感慨地說：臺灣投入科研數十年，卻沒有能夠培育出一位諾貝爾獎得主，真的很丟臉。","quality":0.585},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:44:43.965000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:44:56.841500+08:00","text":"當然，對於像主委您這樣恨鐵不成鋼的心情，本席是可以理解的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:44:56.841500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:09.718000+08:00","text":"但是如果主委您是把這個責任推給大學端、要學校負起培養諾貝爾獎得主責任的話，本席基本上是礙難認同的。","quality":0.174},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:09.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:23.206000+08:00","text":"所謂巧婦難為無米之炊，今天臺灣的大學雖然不是說沒有經費做研究，但普遍的問題就是我們的研究經費不足，特別是基礎科學研究的經費。","quality":0.603},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:25.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:36.983000+08:00","text":"本席很在意的是，我們政府是不是真正提供了一個足夠可以讓臺灣的基礎研究長成世界級影響力的肥沃土壤。","quality":0.717},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:38.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:39.992000+08:00","text":"我們來看看，根據國科會在去年10月底所公布的113年全國科技動態調查，2024年臺灣的公司部門研發經費突破了1兆臺幣，這個數字看起來很亮眼，可是我們如果把這個1兆的經費拆成幾個部分來看，我們發現幾乎是兩個世界，這1兆經費裡面，有14%是來自於政府部門及公部門的投資，其他的16%基本上就是民間私部門企業的技術開發，而且這些民間企業的科研經費主要是投資在半導體製程的精進與優化，對於臺灣的基礎研究經費，整體而言，它投資的比例只有7.7%，大概只有809億左右。","quality":0.613},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:40.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:57.344000+08:00","text":"所以事實上就是整個臺灣的研究經費挹注在基礎科學研究的項目是非常、非常低的，在整個1兆的科研經費裡面，只有800億左右是投入在科學研究經費裡面。","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:58.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:47:07.771000+08:00","text":"所以我們發現，看起來臺灣好像是一個研發大國，但是實際上更像是應用科技的巨人、基礎科學研究的侏儒。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:47:08.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:47:25.779000+08:00","text":"所以我想請教主委，我國115年度的科研經費大概是1,600億左右，在這1,600億的科研預算當中，有多少的比例是投資在基礎研究經費？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:47:25.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:47:29.021000+08:00","text":"你說整個1,600億裡面有多少的比例？是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:47:29.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:47:32.102000+08:00","text":"這個數字我得請同仁查一下。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:47:38.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:47:42.603000+08:00","text":"國科會的部分，我們114年是408億。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:47:42.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:47:42.984000+08:00","text":"只有408億？114年。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:47:43.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:47:45.986000+08:00","text":"今年我們成長一點，本來要更高的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:47:46.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:47:47.067000+08:00","text":"所以是多少？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:47:47.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:47:56.395000+08:00","text":"一點是指多少？427億。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:47:56.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:11.245000+08:00","text":"就是因為我們財政收支劃分法的修正使得我們今年的預算被迫要從1,800億降到1,600億，所以剛剛委員提的議題其實就是我們預算的問題，如果委員……","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:11.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:12.886000+08:00","text":"主委，你不要再牽拖！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:13.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:20.491000+08:00","text":"我們從去年到今年，今年的預算當然是還沒有審，去年的預算我們有刪你們國科會任何一毛錢的預算嗎？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:20.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:22.864000+08:00","text":"今年就是還沒有審，所以我們……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:23.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:24.205000+08:00","text":"今年是還沒有審，我現在講的是去年的預算，是前年的事情……","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:24.205000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:25.205000+08:00","text":"我們今年新增的就沒有辦法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:24.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:25.826000+08:00","text":"你不要再講說是今年的預算，今年的預算確實是沒有審，但是你們還是可以去執行，而且按照預算法的規定……","quality":0.705},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:25.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:26.646000+08:00","text":"新增的部分沒有辦法，超出的部分怎麼可以執行呢？","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:26.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:44.116000+08:00","text":"我們來看看新增的計畫，關於你們的新興計畫，我們立法院已經通過了三十幾項計畫。","quality":0.314},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:44.116000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:45.937000+08:00","text":"你告訴我你們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:45.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:48.119000+08:00","text":"委員，你如果支持基礎研究就趕快通過預算。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:48.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:48.639000+08:00","text":"我們明年還要再增加。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:48.639000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:49.639000+08:00","text":"我們今年本來編1,800億就是因為這樣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:48.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:50.921000+08:00","text":"好了，了解了，所以主委您的意思是說現在所有基礎研究經費全部都是靠新興計畫嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:51.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:52.081000+08:00","text":"你們在年度的預算裡面沒有嗎？","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:52.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:52.522000+08:00","text":"既有的計畫……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:07.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:12.174000+08:00","text":"所以你們年度的預算、計畫本來就有，而這個計畫你們就可以去執行，所以你不要在這裡胡扯、不需要胡說八道……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:12.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:13.154000+08:00","text":"執行不能超出原來的額度啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:13.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:14.655000+08:00","text":"什麼叫做執行不能超出原來額度？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:19.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:19.599000+08:00","text":"所以你要我增加，既有……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:19.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:20.560000+08:00","text":"我們也通過新興計畫，問題是卓榮泰他有給嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:20.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:21.440000+08:00","text":"他不給，我們現在的問題是說立法院通過了新興計畫，可是卓榮泰他不……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:21.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:23.801000+08:00","text":"委員，你是矛盾的、你是矛盾的，你要支持基礎研究就要通過我們的預算，好不好？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:23.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:24.141000+08:00","text":"就這樣子，請儘快！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:24.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:25.062000+08:00","text":"我去年就通過，我現在要求你們要增編、要增編。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:25.062000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:29.021000+08:00","text":"好，你講的哦，我們要增編，是你講的哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:29.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:32.980000+08:00","text":"當然，我要增編啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:32.980000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:36.939000+08:00","text":"是啊，我當然想，問題是你做不到！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:36.939000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:40.898000+08:00","text":"是你做不到啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:40.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:44.857000+08:00","text":"光是我要求看看你們大學裡面的研究經費，你都做不到，你還好意思在這裡講這個！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:44.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:46.098000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，主委，您今天這樣子嗆立法委員，我覺得是非常不對的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:46.098000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:05.919000+08:00","text":"好，時間請暫停。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:05.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:12.184000+08:00","text":"我們所要求的所有資料都不給我們，你還有什麼臉好意思在這裡講？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:12.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:14.406000+08:00","text":"而且你根本就是亂扯！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:14.406000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:15.406000+08:00","text":"你一方面……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:14.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:18.669000+08:00","text":"我們去年在國科會114年度的經費……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:18.669000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:19.669000+08:00","text":"你一方面嗆我嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:18.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:32.842000+08:00","text":"來、來、來，兩邊先停一下、兩邊先停一下，休息一下、休息一下，5秒、5秒，兩邊平心靜氣，我們討論事情，也希望大家……","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:33.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:35.046000+08:00","text":"你一方面講基礎研究重要……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:35.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:37.089000+08:00","text":"主委，不好意思，我正在發言。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:42.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:58.090000+08:00","text":"我想質詢議題有問有答固然重要，但是我們希望平心靜氣，不要用激烈的言語、過當的態度來面對，也希望兩邊能夠繼續平心靜氣地來討論。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:58.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:58.110000+08:00","text":"我們繼續。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:03.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:23.410000+08:00","text":"好，我現在要講的是，我們也不要再浪費太多的時間，我就請主委你提供給我115年度科研經費裡面大概有多少的比例是投資在基礎科學研究、有多少比例是在應用科技及技術發展的部分、金額和比例是多少，我希望國科會兩週之內就給本席一個報告。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:24.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:32.295000+08:00","text":"請問我們主席是不是可以同意要求國科會提供這份報告，同時給我們所有的委員參考？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:32.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:42.440000+08:00","text":"主委，如果在剛剛所提到的這個無關於任何機密的情況之下，這是本來就應該擁有的相關資料，應該兩個禮拜可以完成吧？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:43+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:44.061000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:44.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:44.221000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:44.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:44.981000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:45.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:47.243000+08:00","text":"會後麻煩再提供給所有的委員一份。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:48.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:49.444000+08:00","text":"包含給我翁曉玲委員。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:49.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:49.924000+08:00","text":"以及給翁曉玲委員。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:50.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:15.458000+08:00","text":"我最後要講一句話，因為曾經得到過諾貝爾生理醫學獎的日本東京工業大學教授大隅良典曾經說過「要想讓科學有利於社會，可能需要100年」這樣的名言，本席希望你們國科會能夠更重視臺灣基礎科學的研究，該通過的計畫就要通過，該編列的預算要編列，不要在那裡東拉西扯。以上。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:15.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:15.699000+08:00","text":"好，我們謝謝翁委員的詢答。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:16.199000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:19.341857+08:00","text":"我們下一位請楊瓊瓔委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}