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11:55:42","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長及台灣中油股份有限公司董事長、行政院經貿談判辦公室首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就「台美關稅協定（ART）中關於『擴大採購及購買』（原油、天然氣、發電設備等）項目之評估、規劃及涉及之問題與工作，並就台灣中油股份有限公司之增資案」進行報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.379718750000002,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.476593750000003,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.27721875,"end":18.812843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.75721875,"end":27.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.461593750000002,"end":25.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.68096875,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.300968750000003,"end":38.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.83471875,"end":41.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.74596875,"end":49.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.33971875,"end":55.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.22471875,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.34221875,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.26096875,"end":98.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.66534375,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.42034375000001,"end":128.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.06159375000001,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.25096875,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.18846875,"end":158.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.35659375,"end":157.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.36909375000002,"end":166.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.48596875,"end":167.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.98784375000002,"end":169.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.70909375000002,"end":170.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.92409375,"end":172.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.93221875,"end":172.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.99971875,"end":177.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.59034375000002,"end":173.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.69159375,"end":174.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.39159375,"end":185.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.14534375000002,"end":197.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.53596875000002,"end":199.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.83971875,"end":233.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.35409375,"end":200.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.01971875,"end":234.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.01534375000003,"end":265.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.75721875000002,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.01471875000004,"end":272.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.86596875000004,"end":274.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.70534375,"end":275.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.63346875,"end":292.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.12034375,"end":351.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.18284375,"end":356.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.07221875000005,"end":361.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.67909375000005,"end":365.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.30721875,"end":377.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.52471875000003,"end":378.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.35159375,"end":391.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.76846875,"end":385.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.20284375,"end":385.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.14346875,"end":390.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.11346875000004,"end":390.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.36659375000005,"end":390.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.45096875,"end":391.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.66596875000005,"end":407.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.04721875,"end":412.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.97909375,"end":414.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.71721875000003,"end":414.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.73409375,"end":414.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.97034375000004,"end":415.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.29096875000005,"end":415.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.91534375000003,"end":421.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.46721875000003,"end":425.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.42846875000004,"end":431.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.62596875,"end":437.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.72596875000005,"end":445.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.09221875000003,"end":445.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.08784375000005,"end":447.6572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好那沒有關係我想認同的人應該是寥寥可數啦那不認同的人應該佔大多數為什麼不認同的人會佔大多數因為這是簡單的邏輯問題什麼叫做簡單的邏輯問題"},{"start":56.408,"end":59.192,"text":"就是說謝謝的前提要有吸收虧損問題是有吸收虧損嗎第二個問題就是吸收虧損的前提要有虧損所以這是很簡單的邏輯第一個就是說說謝謝的前提是吸收虧損"},{"start":72.009,"end":77.674,"text":"吸收虧損的前提是要有虧損問題是有虧損嗎很重要問三次有虧損嗎完全沒有虧損為什麼完全沒有虧損我可以舉證我可以舉證三個地方因為你們的油價呢其實是低賣高賣高賣的證據在哪裡就是你們是用7D 3B在計算油價的成本這是一個過高的估價所以高賣的證據在這裡"},{"start":98.812,"end":125.333,"text":"低賣的證據在哪裡三個證據第一個證據呢你們2017年就跟美國買油了然後呢2024年呢因為有一個叫做第三家輕拖流廠停產你們又更擴大的跟美國買油美國已經變成是我國石油來源的主力國家第三個證據是什麼證據你量多跟美國買然後美國又是一個價少的一個國家我們看這個圖看這個"},{"start":128.736,"end":149.609,"text":"紅筐圈起來的地方就可以發現美國的油價是遠低於布蘭特遠低於杜拜的油所以從這三個證據三個低買的證據一個高賣的證據我們可以得出一個結論什麼結論呢就是你們低買高賣你們是超收你們沒有虧損沒有虧損何來吸收虧損沒有吸收虧損"},{"start":153.371,"end":165.12,"text":"卓院長怎麼好意思請大家跟忠祐道謝呢我覺得反而是卓院長欠我們國人一句對不起吧因為你誤導國民根本沒有所謂的虧損是有超收的問題那請問一下董事長你對我的推論認同嗎"},{"start":171.606,"end":196.923,"text":"我不完全認同等一下認同的地方在哪裡?不認同的地方在哪裡?提到的就是7D3B或者是最近提到的所謂4D6B這個計算的方式目前是用7D3B作為油價公司去計算所以中油公司按照油價公司計算本身沒有問題另外還有一個機制就是在雅林最低價也做了一個限制"},{"start":198.864,"end":216.836,"text":"因為我時間有限我先回答7D 3B如果沒有問題為什麼要去修正那就來到我第二個問題了一個公司要修正半年你們卓院長不是說你們是行動內閣嗎一個公司要搞半年才能夠把它弄好而且支票開半年半年能用好嗎不知道"},{"start":217.336,"end":222.978,"text":"所以現在呢 既然沒有問題為什麼要修正 那修正還要花半年你們左院長不是說你們是行動內閣嗎怎麼變成慢吞吞內閣 拖拖拉拉內閣那我呢 因為時間真的非常有限我接著想再請問你 請問你說這個增資 中友要增資 請問一下增資的財源從哪邊來"},{"start":240.586,"end":265.541,"text":"你們一手跟老百姓的身上超收有錢因為剛剛就是我說的低賣高賣你們是超收不是虧損請問一下你們一手從老百姓的身上扒皮那現在呢又要扒第二層請問是要從公務預算撥補嗎公務預算的來源不就是老百姓的稅收一隻羊到底要被你們撥幾次皮你們才會甘心請董事長回答"},{"start":266.281,"end":278.151,"text":"首先這個增資的部分跟這個吸收政策吸收金額沒有關係增資預算是為了加強天然氣所有的建設計畫的韌性計畫的建設"},{"start":281.434,"end":307.173,"text":"這是第一個原因第二個原因對於中油公司過去的累積虧損去做一個填補為了這個目的跟這個政策吸收本身沒有直接的關係我覺得你要爭執的前提是要確認你們有沒有隱喻你們已經是負債比92%已經快接近破產了你還爭執那就如同早上的委員問你們的到時候錢拿不出來請問中油要何去何從他的命運會如何的悲慘"},{"start":308.234,"end":311.916,"text":"那我這邊要請董事長給我幾個數字因為我就是覺得完全沒有虧損何來攜手直說我認為就是低賣高賣所以我現在這邊要請你提供幾個數字第一個數字就是到底你們跟美國買了多少"},{"start":324.421,"end":334.184,"text":"有然後付出的金額是多少然後他跟7D3B所計算出來的金錢落差是多少因為這個金錢落差就可以顯示出說是一個超收所以可不可以請董事長給我這個數據那第二個就是說可能你們要先確認好銀額才能夠有增值計畫所以可不可以給我你們的銀額 盈餘是多少然後根據這樣的盈餘你們提出所謂的增值計畫這是我這邊的訴求"},{"start":352.709,"end":377.051,"text":"我想这个数据我们可以提供但是我想再做个说明中东事件这个期间不管是7D3B或者4D6B这个增加的幅度到达70%但中油公司在国内的售价器材的售价只有增加17%所以可以很想象的我们的售价是没有足够反映这些进口原油的成本"},{"start":378.371,"end":388.354,"text":"你們跟美國買的就是綠線綠線就是跟橘線還有紅線有明顯的落差所以你們的經由成本就是低這才是我說的低價收高價賣你們有超額你們有超收所以假設"},{"start":394.756,"end":402.347,"text":"假設 我說的是假設你們有吸收虧損你們也只不過是把平常跟人民所超收的拿來這邊憑義有加而已這本來就是政府的責任啦這是我這邊的看法"},{"start":409.333,"end":436.15,"text":"WTI以最近來講它是比布蘭特還要高的所以不一定這些指標要不一定是一定是怎麼樣它有時候有很多因素會忽高忽低我知道你有你的說法但是其實人民會相信因為你們跳票或者是轉移焦點模糊焦點的行為太多了人民會相信嗎你要說服的不是我你要說服的是我們的國人2300萬的人民"},{"start":439.738,"end":447.383,"text":"好 這就請鍾游 方董事長再提書面報告那我記得總經理有來找我那游家公司還欠我啊還要記得啊好 謝謝再請鍾游這邊提供給我們資料 謝謝好 我們"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}