{"error":false,"id":["168263"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168263,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168263","日期":"2026-04-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-19-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-08T11:48:06+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-08T11:55:42+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0f26cb8a34ff75648a7afadf2dd1952ecce185cfc45202cc09c8b0e28f4b914155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱慧洳","委員發言時間":"11:48:06 - 11:55:42","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長及台灣中油股份有限公司董事長、行政院經貿談判辦公室首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就「台美關稅協定（ART）中關於『擴大採購及購買』（原油、天然氣、發電設備等）項目之評估、規劃及涉及之問題與工作，並就台灣中油股份有限公司之增資案」進行報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":0.03096875,"end":1.70159375,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":9.379718750000002,"end":9.88596875,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":10.476593750000003,"end":16.652843750000002,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":17.27721875,"end":18.812843750000003,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":23.75721875,"end":27.01409375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":25.461593750000002,"end":25.68096875,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":25.68096875,"end":25.86659375,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":27.300968750000003,"end":38.96159375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":40.83471875,"end":41.59409375,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":41.74596875,"end":49.12034375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":49.33971875,"end":55.98846875,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":56.22471875,"end":60.08909375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":60.34221875,"end":66.97409375000001,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":67.26096875,"end":98.54721875,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":98.66534375,"end":127.03221875000001,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":127.42034375000001,"end":128.04471875000002,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":128.06159375000001,"end":130.57596875000002,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":131.25096875,"end":153.03659375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":153.18846875,"end":158.04846875,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":157.35659375,"end":157.64346875,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":158.36909375000002,"end":166.19909375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":166.48596875,"end":167.44784375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":167.98784375000002,"end":169.48971875,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":169.70909375000002,"end":170.48534375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":170.92409375,"end":172.86471875,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":172.93221875,"end":172.99971875,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":172.99971875,"end":177.43784375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":173.59034375000002,"end":173.62409375000001,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":173.69159375,"end":174.53534375,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":176.39159375,"end":185.80784375000002,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":186.14534375000002,"end":197.23221875000002,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":197.53596875000002,"end":199.20659375000002,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":197.83971875,"end":233.71596875,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":200.35409375,"end":200.87721875000003,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":234.01971875,"end":234.76221875000002,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":235.01534375000003,"end":265.79534375000003,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":239.75721875000002,"end":239.97659375,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":266.01471875000004,"end":272.61284375,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":272.86596875000004,"end":274.51971875000004,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":274.70534375,"end":275.21159375,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":275.63346875,"end":292.17096875000004,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":292.12034375,"end":351.18284375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":351.18284375,"end":356.59971875,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":357.07221875000005,"end":361.56096875000003,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":361.67909375000005,"end":365.02034375000005,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":365.30721875,"end":377.33909375,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":377.52471875000003,"end":378.50346875,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":378.35159375,"end":391.39596875,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":383.76846875,"end":385.20284375,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":385.20284375,"end":385.27034375000005,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":387.14346875,"end":390.11346875000004,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":390.11346875000004,"end":390.18096875000003,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":390.36659375000005,"end":390.45096875,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":390.45096875,"end":391.34534375000004,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":391.66596875000005,"end":407.68034375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":409.04721875,"end":412.42221875,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":412.97909375,"end":414.39659375,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":414.71721875000003,"end":414.73409375,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":414.73409375,"end":414.97034375000004,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":414.97034375000004,"end":415.12221875,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":415.29096875000005,"end":415.67909375000005,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":415.91534375000003,"end":421.93971875000005,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":421.46721875000003,"end":425.93909375000004,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":426.42846875000004,"end":431.50784375,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":431.62596875,"end":437.46471875000003,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":439.72596875000005,"end":445.02471875000003,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":445.09221875000003,"end":445.86846875000003,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":446.08784375000005,"end":447.65721875,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":449.12534375,"end":449.95221875000004,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":452.06159375000004,"end":452.31471875000005,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":452.43284375,"end":455.36909375000005,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":457.83284375000005,"end":457.91721875,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":457.91721875,"end":457.96784375000004,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":457.96784375000004,"end":458.08596875,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":458.08596875,"end":458.11971875,"speaker_score":0.827},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":458.11971875,"end":458.25471875000005,"speaker_score":0.74},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":458.25471875000005,"end":458.52471875000003,"speaker_score":0.827}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.83,"end":18.545,"text":"國會陸委員質詢國會陸委員同仁還有現場的政府部門同仁大家好有請那個方董事長有請中遊方董事長"},{"start":23.8,"end":35.99,"text":"好方董事長您好我想跟您請教我們的卓院長說呢中友呢因為吸收虧損所以呢人民要來跟中友說謝謝請問你認同這個論調嗎"},{"start":41.068,"end":45.534,"text":"我認同你認同 好那沒有關係我想認同的人應該是寥寥可數啦那不認同的人應該佔大多數為什麼不認同的人會佔大多數因為這是簡單的邏輯問題什麼叫做簡單的邏輯問題"},{"start":56.408,"end":59.192,"text":"就是說謝謝的前提要有吸收虧損問題是有吸收虧損嗎第二個問題就是吸收虧損的前提要有虧損所以這是很簡單的邏輯第一個就是說說謝謝的前提是吸收虧損"},{"start":72.009,"end":77.674,"text":"吸收虧損的前提是要有虧損問題是有虧損嗎很重要問三次有虧損嗎完全沒有虧損為什麼完全沒有虧損我可以舉證我可以舉證三個地方因為你們的油價呢其實是低賣高賣高賣的證據在哪裡就是你們是用7D 3B在計算油價的成本這是一個過高的估價所以高賣的證據在這裡"},{"start":98.812,"end":125.333,"text":"低賣的證據在哪裡三個證據第一個證據呢你們2017年就跟美國買油了然後呢2024年呢因為有一個叫做第三家輕拖流廠停產你們又更擴大的跟美國買油美國已經變成是我國石油來源的主力國家第三個證據是什麼證據你量多跟美國買然後美國又是一個價少的一個國家我們看這個圖看這個"},{"start":128.736,"end":149.609,"text":"紅筐圈起來的地方就可以發現美國的油價是遠低於布蘭特遠低於杜拜的油所以從這三個證據三個低買的證據一個高賣的證據我們可以得出一個結論什麼結論呢就是你們低買高賣你們是超收你們沒有虧損沒有虧損何來吸收虧損沒有吸收虧損"},{"start":153.371,"end":165.12,"text":"卓院長怎麼好意思請大家跟忠祐道謝呢我覺得反而是卓院長欠我們國人一句對不起吧因為你誤導國民根本沒有所謂的虧損是有超收的問題那請問一下董事長你對我的推論認同嗎"},{"start":171.606,"end":196.923,"text":"我不完全認同等一下認同的地方在哪裡?不認同的地方在哪裡?提到的就是7D3B或者是最近提到的所謂4D6B這個計算的方式目前是用7D3B作為油價公司去計算所以中油公司按照油價公司計算本身沒有問題另外還有一個機制就是在雅林最低價也做了一個限制"},{"start":198.864,"end":216.836,"text":"因為我時間有限我先回答7D 3B如果沒有問題為什麼要去修正那就來到我第二個問題了一個公司要修正半年你們卓院長不是說你們是行動內閣嗎一個公司要搞半年才能夠把它弄好而且支票開半年半年能用好嗎不知道"},{"start":217.336,"end":222.978,"text":"所以現在呢 既然沒有問題為什麼要修正 那修正還要花半年你們左院長不是說你們是行動內閣嗎怎麼變成慢吞吞內閣 拖拖拉拉內閣那我呢 因為時間真的非常有限我接著想再請問你 請問你說這個增資 中友要增資 請問一下增資的財源從哪邊來"},{"start":240.586,"end":265.541,"text":"你們一手跟老百姓的身上超收有錢因為剛剛就是我說的低賣高賣你們是超收不是虧損請問一下你們一手從老百姓的身上扒皮那現在呢又要扒第二層請問是要從公務預算撥補嗎公務預算的來源不就是老百姓的稅收一隻羊到底要被你們撥幾次皮你們才會甘心請董事長回答"},{"start":266.281,"end":278.151,"text":"首先這個增資的部分跟這個吸收政策吸收金額沒有關係增資預算是為了加強天然氣所有的建設計畫的韌性計畫的建設"},{"start":281.434,"end":307.173,"text":"這是第一個原因第二個原因對於中油公司過去的累積虧損去做一個填補為了這個目的跟這個政策吸收本身沒有直接的關係我覺得你要爭執的前提是要確認你們有沒有隱喻你們已經是負債比92%已經快接近破產了你還爭執那就如同早上的委員問你們的到時候錢拿不出來請問中油要何去何從他的命運會如何的悲慘"},{"start":308.234,"end":311.916,"text":"那我這邊要請董事長給我幾個數字因為我就是覺得完全沒有虧損何來攜手直說我認為就是低賣高賣所以我現在這邊要請你提供幾個數字第一個數字就是到底你們跟美國買了多少"},{"start":324.421,"end":334.184,"text":"有然後付出的金額是多少然後他跟7D3B所計算出來的金錢落差是多少因為這個金錢落差就可以顯示出說是一個超收所以可不可以請董事長給我這個數據那第二個就是說可能你們要先確認好銀額才能夠有增值計畫所以可不可以給我你們的銀額 盈餘是多少然後根據這樣的盈餘你們提出所謂的增值計畫這是我這邊的訴求"},{"start":352.709,"end":377.051,"text":"我想这个数据我们可以提供但是我想再做个说明中东事件这个期间不管是7D3B或者4D6B这个增加的幅度到达70%但中油公司在国内的售价器材的售价只有增加17%所以可以很想象的我们的售价是没有足够反映这些进口原油的成本"},{"start":378.371,"end":388.354,"text":"你們跟美國買的就是綠線綠線就是跟橘線還有紅線有明顯的落差所以你們的經由成本就是低這才是我說的低價收高價賣你們有超額你們有超收所以假設"},{"start":394.756,"end":402.347,"text":"假設 我說的是假設你們有吸收虧損你們也只不過是把平常跟人民所超收的拿來這邊憑義有加而已這本來就是政府的責任啦這是我這邊的看法"},{"start":409.333,"end":436.15,"text":"WTI以最近來講它是比布蘭特還要高的所以不一定這些指標要不一定是一定是怎麼樣它有時候有很多因素會忽高忽低我知道你有你的說法但是其實人民會相信因為你們跳票或者是轉移焦點模糊焦點的行為太多了人民會相信嗎你要說服的不是我你要說服的是我們的國人2300萬的人民"},{"start":439.738,"end":447.383,"text":"好 這就請鍾游 方董事長再提書面報告那我記得總經理有來找我那游家公司還欠我啊還要記得啊好 謝謝再請鍾游這邊提供給我們資料 謝謝好 我們"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:16.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:20.781000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員同仁，還有現場的政府部門同仁，大家好。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:20.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:23.324000+08:00","text":"有請方董事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:23.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:24.545000+08:00","text":"有請中油方董事長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:30.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:30.961000+08:00","text":"方董事長您好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:30.961000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:31.961000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:31.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:41.909000+08:00","text":"我想跟你請教，我們的卓院長說中油因為吸收虧損，所以人民要來跟中油說謝謝。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:41.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:41.990000+08:00","text":"請問你認同這個論調嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:47.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:47.329000+08:00","text":"我認同。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:47.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:50.112000+08:00","text":"你認同，好，那沒有關係，我想認同的人應該是寥寥可數啦，不認同的人應該占大多數。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:50.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:51.094000+08:00","text":"為什麼不認同的人會占大多數？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:51.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:51.394000+08:00","text":"因為這是簡單的邏輯問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:51.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:51.534000+08:00","text":"什麼叫做簡單的邏輯問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:02.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:03.089000+08:00","text":"就是說謝謝的前提要有吸收虧損。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:03.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:03.450000+08:00","text":"問題是有吸收虧損嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:03.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:04.751000+08:00","text":"第二個問題就是吸收虧損的前提要有虧損，所以這是很簡單的邏輯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:04.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:19.430000+08:00","text":"第一個就是，說謝謝的前提是吸收虧損，吸收虧損的前提是要有虧損。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:19.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:19.591000+08:00","text":"問題是有虧損嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:19.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:20.031000+08:00","text":"很重要，問三次，有虧損嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:20.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:20.331000+08:00","text":"完全沒有虧損。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:20.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:20.651000+08:00","text":"為什麼完全沒有虧損？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:20.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:22.073000+08:00","text":"我可以舉證三個地方，因為你們的油價其實是低買高賣，高賣的證據在哪裡？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:22.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:23.674000+08:00","text":"就是你們是用7D3B在計算油價的成本，這是一個過高的估價，所以高賣的證據在這裡。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:44.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:46.614000+08:00","text":"低賣的證據在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:46.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:02.706000+08:00","text":"三個證據，第一個證據，你們2017年就跟美國買油了；2024年因為有一個叫做第三加氫脫硫場停產，你們又更擴大的跟美國買油，美國已經變成是我國石油來源的主力國家。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:03.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:05.529000+08:00","text":"第三個證據是什麼證據？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:05.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:10.593000+08:00","text":"你量多跟美國買，然後美國又是一個價少的一個國家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:11.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:22.200000+08:00","text":"我們看這個圖，看紅框圈起來的地方就可以發現，美國的油價遠低於布蘭特，遠低於杜拜的油價。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:23.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:30.466000+08:00","text":"從這些證據，三個低買的證據、一個高賣的證據，我們可以得出一個結論，什麼結論呢？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:30.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:35.008000+08:00","text":"就是你們低買高賣，你們是超收，你們沒有虧損，沒有虧損何來吸收虧損？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:35.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:42.233000+08:00","text":"沒有吸收虧損，卓院長怎麼好意思請大家跟中油道謝呢？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:42.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:50.020000+08:00","text":"我覺得反而是卓院長欠我們國人一句對不起吧，因為你誤導國民，根本沒有所謂的虧損，是有超收的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:50.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:51.120000+08:00","text":"那請問一下董事長，你對我的推論認同嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:57.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:58.646000+08:00","text":"我不完全認同，首先……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:00.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:04.450000+08:00","text":"好，等一下，認同的地方在哪裡，不認同的地方在哪裡？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:05.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:19.560000+08:00","text":"首先，7D3B或者是最近提到了所謂4D6B的計算方式，目前是用7D3B作為油價公式去計算，所以中油公司按照油價公式計算，本身沒有問題。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:19.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:22.903000+08:00","text":"另外，還有一個機制就是在亞鄰最低價也做了一個限制。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:22.903000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:24.864000+08:00","text":"第二點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:24.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:29.687000+08:00","text":"因為我時間有限，我先回答，7D3B如果沒有問題，為什麼要去修正？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:30.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:36.972000+08:00","text":"那就來到我第二個問題了，一個公式要修正半年，你們卓院長不是說你們是行動內閣嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:36.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:42.415000+08:00","text":"一個公式要搞半年才能夠把它弄好，而且支票開半年，半年能弄好嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:42.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:42.816000+08:00","text":"不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:43.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:45.217000+08:00","text":"現在既然沒有問題，為什麼要修正？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:45.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:45.757000+08:00","text":"然後修正還要花半年。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:45.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:46.437000+08:00","text":"你們卓院長不是說你們是行動內閣嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:46.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:47.018000+08:00","text":"怎麼變成慢吞吞內閣、拖拖拉拉內閣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:47.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:48.978000+08:00","text":"因為時間真的非常有限，我接著想再請問你，你說中油要增資，請問一下增資的財源從哪邊來？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:06.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:15.731000+08:00","text":"你們一手跟老百姓的身上超收油錢，因為剛剛就是我說的低買高賣，你們是超收，不是虧損。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:15.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:23.616000+08:00","text":"請問一下，你們一手從老百姓的身上扒皮，現在又要扒第二層，請問是要從公務預算撥補嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:23.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:29.880000+08:00","text":"公務預算的來源不就是老百姓的稅收，一隻羊到底要被你們剝幾次皮你們才會甘心？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:30.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:31.521000+08:00","text":"請董事長回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:32.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:48.035000+08:00","text":"首先，這個增資的部分跟政策吸收金額沒有關係，增資預算是為了加強天然氣所有建設計畫、韌性計畫的建設，這第一個原因。","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:48.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:58.162000+08:00","text":"第二個原因，對於中油公司過去的累積虧損去做一個填補，是為了這個目的，跟這個政策吸收本身沒有直接的關係。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:58.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:13.173000+08:00","text":"我覺得你要增資的前提是要確認你們有沒有盈餘，你們負債比92%，已經快接近破產了你還增資，那就如同早上的委員問你們的，到時候錢拿不出來，請問中油要何去何從，它的命運會如何的悲慘？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:14.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:15.815000+08:00","text":"我這邊要請董事長給我幾個數字，因為我就是覺得完全沒有虧損，何來吸收之說？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:15.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:17.896000+08:00","text":"我認為就是低買高賣，所以我現在要請你提供幾個數字，第一個數字就是到底你們跟美國買了多少油？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:31.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:32.522000+08:00","text":"付出的金額是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:32.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:36.183000+08:00","text":"然後他跟7D3B所計算出來的金錢落差是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:36.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:37.943000+08:00","text":"因為這個金錢落差就可以顯示出是超收，所以可不可以請董事長給我這個數據？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:37.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:39.423000+08:00","text":"第二個就是可能你們要先確認好盈餘才能夠有增資計畫，所以可不可以給我你們的盈餘是多少？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:39.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:40.084000+08:00","text":"然後根據這樣的盈餘，你們提出所謂的增資計畫？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:40.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:40.164000+08:00","text":"這是我這邊的訴求。","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:58.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:02.072000+08:00","text":"好，可以，這個數據我們可以提供，但是我想再做個說明。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:03.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:23.031000+08:00","text":"中東事件這個期間，不管是7D3B或者4D6B，這個增加的幅度到達70%，但中油公司在國內汽柴油的售價只有增加17%，所以可以想像我們的售價是沒有足額反映這些進口原油的成本，我大概做以上補充說明。","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:24.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:30.993000+08:00","text":"你們跟美國買的就是綠線，綠線就是跟橘線還有紅線有明顯的落差……","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:30.993000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:31.993000+08:00","text":"以美國的油價來講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:31.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:32.674000+08:00","text":"所以你們的進油成本就是低……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:32.674000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:33.674000+08:00","text":"以美國的原油WTI來講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:33.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:48.327000+08:00","text":"這才是我說的低價收高價賣，你們有超收，所以「假設」，我說的是假設，假設你們有吸收虧損，你們也只不過是把平常跟人民所超收的，拿來這邊平抑油價而已，這本來就是政府的責任，這是我這邊的看法。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:55.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:07.461000+08:00","text":"WTI以最近來講，它是比布蘭特還要高的，所以這些指標油價不一定是一定會怎麼樣，它有時候有很多因素會造成忽高忽低。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:07.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:19.088000+08:00","text":"我知道，你有你的說法，但是你們跳票或者是轉移焦點、模糊焦點的行為太多了，所以人民會相信嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:19.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:22.130000+08:00","text":"你要說服的不是我，你要說服的是我們的國人、2,300萬的人民。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:25.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:28.680000+08:00","text":"好，請中油方董事長再提書面報告。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:28.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:32.983000+08:00","text":"我記得總經理有來找我，油價公式的部分還欠我，要記得啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:33.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:33.043000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:33.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:33.343000+08:00","text":"再請中油這邊提供給我們資料，謝謝。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:33.843000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:39.843000+08:00","text":"好，我們中午不休息，延長開會時間至議程處理完畢。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:40.143000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:44.143000+08:00","text":"接下來我們有請蔡易餘委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}