{"error":false,"id":["168264"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168264,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168264","日期":"2026-04-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-08T11:18:56+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-08T11:55:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:36:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0b9fd49c8a5b6e55301ae777e4c72867ece185cfc45202cc0798c8af07a2370ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:18:56 - 11:55:47","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部就「穩定供給與減塑並進：因應國際原物料波動之原物料穩定供應及我國減塑治理進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n一、審查「廢棄物清理法條文修正草案」9案：\n（一）委員馬文君等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員顏寬恒等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林淑芬等22人擬具「廢棄物清理法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員張宏陸等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員許智傑等29人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員劉建國等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「資源回收再利用法修正草案」2案：\n（一）委員許智傑等28人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n（二）委員盧縣一等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及法律案綜合詢答，法律案僅詢答】\n【4月8日及9日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":0.25034375000000003,"end":2.8997187500000003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林副署長健三","start":2.8997187500000003,"end":2.91659375,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":12.14721875,"end":16.90596875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":19.875968750000002,"end":20.719718750000002,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":21.090968750000002,"end":24.044093750000002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":24.398468750000003,"end":26.42346875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":27.70596875,"end":34.50659375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":35.19846875,"end":36.49784375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":36.970343750000005,"end":41.59409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":41.79659375,"end":54.92534375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.92534375,"end":54.992843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":54.992843750000006,"end":61.641593750000006,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":61.91159375,"end":71.68221875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.03346875,"end":65.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":72.39096875,"end":94.58159375000001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":94.78409375000001,"end":110.35971875000001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":110.54534375,"end":123.31971875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":123.31971875,"end":123.77534375,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":123.77534375,"end":136.29659375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":136.43159375000002,"end":150.70784375000002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":151.24784375000002,"end":170.67096875000001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":171.04221875000002,"end":184.49159375000002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":185.38596875000002,"end":189.97596875000002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":190.68471875,"end":195.39284375000003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":195.96659375000002,"end":211.22159375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":211.67721875,"end":216.48659375000003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":216.79034375,"end":251.41784375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":252.34596875000003,"end":258.67409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":259.16346875,"end":263.43284375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":264.78284375000004,"end":270.82409375000003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":271.11096875000004,"end":272.03909375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":272.19096875,"end":273.38909375000003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":274.01346875,"end":293.82471875000005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":294.06096875000003,"end":334.78034375000004,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":335.37096875000003,"end":339.03284375000004,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":339.10034375000004,"end":339.60659375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":339.89346875,"end":343.38659375000003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":344.71971875,"end":347.79096875000005,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":347.53784375000004,"end":352.31346875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":353.52846875,"end":361.62846875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":360.76784375,"end":361.18971875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":361.64534375,"end":362.35409375,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":362.35409375,"end":363.70409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":362.77596875,"end":364.61534375,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":364.75034375,"end":367.06221875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":366.82596875,"end":370.33596875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":369.82971875000004,"end":374.30159375000005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":375.11159375,"end":380.00534375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":380.41034375000004,"end":382.60409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":382.78971875,"end":388.71284375000005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":388.98284375000003,"end":392.47596875000005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":393.48846875000004,"end":394.24784375,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":394.24784375,"end":394.66971875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":395.04096875000005,"end":398.21346875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":399.20909375,"end":399.24284375,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":399.24284375,"end":399.32721875000004,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":399.32721875000004,"end":399.63096875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":399.63096875,"end":400.44096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":400.99784375,"end":402.09471875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":402.80346875000004,"end":403.09034375000005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":403.24221875,"end":423.35721875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":424.69034375,"end":464.39721875000004,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":464.81909375000004,"end":472.26096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":472.96971875,"end":477.52596875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":477.79596875000004,"end":478.60596875000005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":479.56784375,"end":491.68409375000005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":492.13971875000004,"end":496.93221875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":497.79284375000003,"end":508.40721875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":509.70659375,"end":510.43221875000006,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":509.75721875000005,"end":509.95971875000004,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":510.60096875000005,"end":512.5247187499999,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":511.79909375000005,"end":512.55846875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":513.3347187500001,"end":514.4653437500001,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":514.4653437500001,"end":515.79846875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":515.96721875,"end":546.91596875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":547.5403437500001,"end":558.1884687500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":558.7959687499999,"end":582.1340937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":582.7078437499999,"end":592.30971875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":593.1028437500001,"end":596.1740937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":596.4272187500001,"end":611.02409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":611.6484687500001,"end":619.9172187500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":620.99721875,"end":624.5915937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":624.96284375,"end":642.51284375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":643.20471875,"end":665.6315937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":665.9353437500001,"end":688.34534375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":688.7165937500001,"end":694.3190937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":695.0278437500001,"end":695.41596875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":695.97284375,"end":700.7990937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":701.57534375,"end":701.8959687500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":702.4697187500001,"end":710.2322187500001,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":708.20721875,"end":710.01284375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":710.2322187500001,"end":710.9578437499999,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":710.9578437499999,"end":711.1940937500001,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":711.1940937500001,"end":716.79659375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":712.8815937500001,"end":713.1684687500001,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":717.4040937500001,"end":721.94346875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":722.4497187500001,"end":728.40659375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":728.7947187500001,"end":729.82409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":730.38096875,"end":737.18159375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":737.5359687499999,"end":740.50596875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":742.37909375,"end":747.28971875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":748.26846875,"end":750.1753437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":750.4622187500001,"end":755.30534375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":756.01409375,"end":765.16034375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":765.4809687500001,"end":769.5815937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":769.91909375,"end":773.04096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":774.67784375,"end":794.97846875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":795.6028437500001,"end":806.6897187500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":807.16221875,"end":811.54971875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":811.93784375,"end":816.76409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":817.97909375,"end":819.3290937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":820.57784375,"end":826.43346875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":828.39096875,"end":834.17909375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":834.29721875,"end":839.79846875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":841.24971875,"end":844.9115937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":845.2153437500001,"end":847.0378437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":848.6240937500002,"end":849.7378437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":850.48034375,"end":856.6397187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":857.09534375,"end":867.67596875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":867.8953437500002,"end":871.2534687500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":871.6753437500001,"end":880.45034375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":881.27721875,"end":894.7097187500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":894.96284375,"end":900.5990937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":901.4934687500001,"end":903.0290937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":903.19784375,"end":906.9778437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":909.0365937500001,"end":909.40784375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":909.84659375,"end":910.84221875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":911.7197187500001,"end":913.3059687500001,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":913.47471875,"end":915.29721875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":916.5459687500002,"end":916.56284375,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":916.56284375,"end":916.57971875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":916.57971875,"end":916.84971875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":916.84971875,"end":923.93721875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":916.90034375,"end":917.0690937500001,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":923.48159375,"end":924.5447187500001,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":924.30846875,"end":935.0578437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林副署長健三","start":934.45034375,"end":937.15034375,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":936.1884687500001,"end":941.1159687500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林副署長健三","start":937.4540937500001,"end":937.9097187500001,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林副署長健三","start":941.2847187500001,"end":944.55846875,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":944.55846875,"end":946.0265937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":946.66784375,"end":954.0590937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":955.2065937500001,"end":956.37096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":956.67471875,"end":958.6997187500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":959.50971875,"end":960.6740937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":962.31096875,"end":962.59784375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林副署長健三","start":966.63096875,"end":969.63471875,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":968.23409375,"end":974.83221875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林副署長健三","start":976.1147187500001,"end":981.6159687500001,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":981.3628437500001,"end":985.48034375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":986.17221875,"end":1004.31284375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1004.5322187500001,"end":1031.81909375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1032.19034375,"end":1040.3240937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1040.5940937500002,"end":1043.02409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1043.2603437500002,"end":1053.90846875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1054.56659375,"end":1060.06784375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1060.5403437500001,"end":1062.2447187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1063.17284375,"end":1066.56471875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1066.83471875,"end":1068.67409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1069.2647187500002,"end":1073.31471875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1073.6015937500001,"end":1074.83346875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1075.6097187500002,"end":1083.8784687500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1085.39721875,"end":1086.1228437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1087.47284375,"end":1090.9322187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1091.40471875,"end":1094.4590937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1094.7122187500001,"end":1097.8003437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1098.3909687500002,"end":1106.4403437500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1102.7784687500002,"end":1103.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1106.77784375,"end":1114.32096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1114.77659375,"end":1119.0797187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1119.7547187500002,"end":1120.1934687500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1120.9022187500002,"end":1134.6384687500001,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1130.40284375,"end":1142.8228437500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1135.16159375,"end":1135.60034375,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1136.71409375,"end":1136.98409375,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1143.29534375,"end":1152.3740937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1152.44159375,"end":1155.69846875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":1156.81221875,"end":1164.96284375,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1161.87471875,"end":1161.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1161.89159375,"end":1162.3472187500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1164.96284375,"end":1166.97096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1167.05534375,"end":1167.1903437500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1167.2915937500002,"end":1168.5403437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1168.65846875,"end":1168.6753437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":1168.6753437500001,"end":1173.0290937500001,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1170.4134687500002,"end":1189.00971875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1189.46534375,"end":1197.02534375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1197.6328437500001,"end":1206.3909687500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1206.6609687500002,"end":1223.6709687500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1224.46409375,"end":1225.03784375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1225.42596875,"end":1237.8628437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1238.3522187500002,"end":1251.16034375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1251.9872187500002,"end":1254.0290937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":1254.0290937500001,"end":1254.1640937500001,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1254.1640937500001,"end":1254.1978437500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":1254.53534375,"end":1270.4822187500001,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1257.7584687500002,"end":1259.6822187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1259.6822187500002,"end":1259.6990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1269.7059687500002,"end":1280.03346875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":1280.03346875,"end":1281.55221875,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":1281.9065937500002,"end":1286.36159375,"speaker_score":0.919},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1286.36159375,"end":1291.52534375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1291.9978437500001,"end":1294.49534375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1294.63034375,"end":1299.86159375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1300.26659375,"end":1302.10596875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1303.7090937500002,"end":1311.64034375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1312.0284687500002,"end":1323.6384687500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1324.16159375,"end":1327.40159375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1327.5872187500001,"end":1348.1747187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1348.4278437500002,"end":1350.30096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1350.30096875,"end":1356.81471875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1357.4390937500002,"end":1400.08221875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1400.1328437500001,"end":1420.4672187500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1421.07471875,"end":1434.4903437500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1434.84471875,"end":1438.7090937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1439.0297187500003,"end":1440.8353437500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1441.2065937500001,"end":1447.90596875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1448.20971875,"end":1450.6228437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1451.1965937500001,"end":1451.9559687500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1452.96846875,"end":1465.4728437500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1466.0297187500003,"end":1472.0034687500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1473.0665937500003,"end":1474.1128437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1474.5684687500002,"end":1475.91846875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1477.01534375,"end":1477.3359687500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1478.43284375,"end":1480.0865937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1480.0865937500002,"end":1485.3684687500001,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1485.03096875,"end":1495.5272187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1496.0840937500002,"end":1513.46534375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1513.8028437500002,"end":1521.48096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1522.6284687500001,"end":1573.6078437500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1573.91159375,"end":1579.2103437500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1579.4972187500002,"end":1587.41159375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1588.96409375,"end":1596.8109687500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1598.5828437500002,"end":1600.62471875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1600.5572187500002,"end":1607.81346875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1602.19409375,"end":1603.6959687500002,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1608.38721875,"end":1609.1465937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1609.1634687500002,"end":1611.4922187500001,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1611.4247187500002,"end":1612.6228437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1612.89284375,"end":1614.4959687500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1614.8165937500003,"end":1619.8622187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1622.3428437500002,"end":1630.99971875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1624.3003437500001,"end":1625.7347187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1630.7634687500001,"end":1632.70409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1631.6409687500002,"end":1634.2734687500001,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1633.3622187500002,"end":1635.0665937500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1634.6447187500003,"end":1642.2384687500003,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1639.9940937500003,"end":1640.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1640.01096875,"end":1641.0403437500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1641.5297187500003,"end":1643.7572187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1644.0609687500003,"end":1646.77784375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1647.6722187500002,"end":1648.9715937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1648.9715937500002,"end":1652.5828437500002,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1651.9247187500002,"end":1653.2915937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1653.9159687500003,"end":1697.5040937500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1698.0103437500002,"end":1702.1278437500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1702.4822187500001,"end":1744.9903437500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1745.1759687500003,"end":1751.53784375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1752.24659375,"end":1753.2590937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1753.7653437500003,"end":1822.8515937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1823.4759687500002,"end":1836.5878437500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1837.0603437500001,"end":1841.4478437500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1841.6165937500002,"end":1848.1134687500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1848.56909375,"end":1873.03784375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1873.32471875,"end":1881.9647187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1882.2347187500002,"end":1882.9265937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1884.1922187500002,"end":1885.4747187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1886.25096875,"end":1888.5797187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1889.0353437500003,"end":1890.9422187500002,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1890.9759687500002,"end":1891.0097187500003,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1891.0940937500002,"end":1891.7690937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1891.7690937500001,"end":1892.4272187500003,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1892.0897187500002,"end":1916.76096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1917.1659687500003,"end":1918.0772187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1918.6678437500002,"end":1920.13596875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1920.6928437500003,"end":1922.0765937500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1923.3084687500002,"end":1936.7240937500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1937.0447187500001,"end":1943.8959687500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1944.3853437500002,"end":1951.8440937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1952.0465937500003,"end":1960.4165937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1960.8722187500002,"end":1971.6890937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1972.3809687500002,"end":1985.5940937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1985.7122187500001,"end":1989.7284687500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1991.0615937500002,"end":1992.0740937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1992.85034375,"end":1995.7865937500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1996.07346875,"end":1996.09034375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":1996.09034375,"end":1997.9803437500002,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1997.9803437500002,"end":1998.0140937500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":1998.5540937500002,"end":2000.0559687500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2001.3384687500002,"end":2006.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2001.5409687500003,"end":2001.7434687500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":2007.1265937500002,"end":2017.47096875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2014.93971875,"end":2016.2897187500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2017.2347187500002,"end":2028.3384687500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2028.7940937500002,"end":2031.8653437500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2032.8272187500002,"end":2033.3840937500001,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2033.9578437500002,"end":2034.2784687500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2034.9703437500002,"end":2036.9615937500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2038.2440937500003,"end":2045.8209687500002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2046.0909687500002,"end":2049.65159375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2050.4784687500005,"end":2051.6259687500005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2052.1490937500002,"end":2055.81096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2056.3847187500005,"end":2057.5322187500005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2057.73471875,"end":2059.9959687500004,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2060.43471875,"end":2061.24471875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2061.4978437500004,"end":2080.34721875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2080.65096875,"end":2082.69284375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2083.5703437500006,"end":2085.3759687500005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2086.18596875,"end":2088.1434687500005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2090.89409375,"end":2091.8728437500004,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2092.2947187500004,"end":2113.59096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2113.8272187500006,"end":2116.74659375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2117.5059687500006,"end":2119.14284375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2120.71221875,"end":2121.15096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2122.5515937500004,"end":2123.80034375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2124.69471875,"end":2125.5047187500004,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2126.2303437500004,"end":2129.4872187500005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2129.94284375,"end":2132.52471875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":2132.59221875,"end":2139.71346875,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2140.4559687500005,"end":2143.0547187500006,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2143.62846875,"end":2148.0497187500005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2149.3659687500003,"end":2157.0947187500005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2157.5165937500005,"end":2163.7097187500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2166.40971875,"end":2169.7509687500005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":2170.79721875,"end":2172.29909375,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2171.5565937500005,"end":2175.26909375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2176.33221875,"end":2181.71534375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2182.5928437500006,"end":2184.5672187500004,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2185.14096875,"end":2185.74846875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2186.52471875,"end":2186.94659375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":2186.94659375,"end":2188.4315937500005,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2187.92534375,"end":2191.16534375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2191.70534375,"end":2200.1090937500003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2200.76721875,"end":2212.4784687500005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2213.5078437500006,"end":2213.71034375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":2213.6259687500005,"end":2214.1490937500002,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2214.3347187500003,"end":2214.84096875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":2215.04346875,"end":2215.39784375,"speaker_score":0.94},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":2216.2247187500006,"end":2216.96721875,"speaker_score":0.985}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.607,"end":26.198,"text":"接下来请林淑芬委员发言好 现在这个主席是不是请我们彭部长有请彭部长李委员好部长好这个全台湾这个事业"},{"start":27.725,"end":48.111,"text":"一般也不是非事業廢棄物就是一般家庭垃圾的焚化廠當中我先講好了是事業廢棄物的焚化廠當中然後不是是非事業廢棄物是一般垃圾焚化廠每年大概處理650萬噸廢棄物是吧然後產出90萬的底渣和20萬的非灰"},{"start":55.313,"end":69.514,"text":"那這些都要納入這個環管署的SWIMS系統去管理吧那輝輝的處理也很明確的規範嘛然後依照一般廢棄物回收處清除處理辦法第27條"},{"start":72.623,"end":77.787,"text":"聽好這個是家庭產出的垃圾家庭一般垃圾不是事業廢棄物家庭的垃圾那環管署管理然後他的清除處理辦法27條他講必須逐批尤其在衍生物我講輝輝"},{"start":91.437,"end":111.447,"text":"他的衍生物必須每一批 燒出來每一批都要採穩定化溶融法或穩定化法或經其他中央主管機關許可的處理辦法然後處理以後 你必須安定化 無害化 然後穩定化"},{"start":112.307,"end":131.994,"text":"之後呢每一批喔還要進行代澳新檢測是另外檢測代澳新檢測以外還要進行TCLP的溶出檢測對吧是沒錯好那我要討論這個非灰的管制的制度問題之前我先從這個新竹焚化爐的問題來談"},{"start":138.117,"end":165.096,"text":"2019年4月新竹縣長楊文科在施政報告當中他規劃要興建焚化爐招標的具體內容還沒有公開台融科技他就在4月他公開說他要興建一個焚化爐台融在5月就馬上去買了六筆土地這六筆土地剛好在2002年他們那個地方已經通過了環平的焚化爐預定地了"},{"start":166.536,"end":195.091,"text":"所以顯然大家都在講說這個好像很厲害那三個月後呢縣政府就正式公告他們要蓋的焚化爐是要用BOO案的方式去蓋所以廠商要自己準備土地然後導致他用BOO以後就排除了本來有意要投標的日本"},{"start":196.021,"end":210.557,"text":"歐美的業者紛紛都退出變成台融成為唯一符合資格的投標者獨家得標那外界議論的是說副縣長的配偶就等於副縣長他們家啦才發現說他們擁有台融的這個股票500張"},{"start":217.404,"end":239.414,"text":"現在價值也不菲 那有沒有利益迴避 大家都嚴重質疑然後大家也在講說新竹縣政府的BOO的合約條件被批評遠遠比同級的案件條件定的非常的差非常的不利於縣政府 非常的有利於業者 包括"},{"start":240.554,"end":249.223,"text":"合約規定每天500噸的處理的量能你一半250噸要給事業廢棄物250噸要給民生垃圾但是光是他們新竹縣自己每天的民生垃圾就280噸所以光是要處理他們新竹縣自己的垃圾都還不夠"},{"start":264.898,"end":289.931,"text":"大家都知道處理生活垃圾收的錢少處理事業廢棄物收的錢才多但是現在他要收你的生活垃圾他一噸這個焚化爐要收2100元如果你超量加價要到2520元那回饋金遠低於桃園跟高雄的每噸400元回饋金每噸100元"},{"start":294.193,"end":297.935,"text":"焚化發電收益全部都歸這個焚化廠商所有所以在這個東西這樣公佈以後台榮科技在2025年合併營收因為這個案子大幅成長進六層碳系碳鋼但我今天不是要說這焚化廠背後的利益結構和官商勾結啦我不是要講這個我是要講這座焚化廠所暴露的"},{"start":323.627,"end":341.516,"text":"環境的環保的制度的漏洞比這一個個案爭議就是有沒有圖利還更嚴重的攸關到全民的制度面的缺失其實就是非非管制的雙軌漏洞部長非非管制的雙軌漏洞你有知道嗎報告委員這個案子是非常特殊的我沒有講這個啦我在講非非管制的雙軌的漏洞"},{"start":353.618,"end":361.224,"text":"你們在飛灰管理上的漏洞大家都知道這個飛灰問題很嚴重保證你不知道啦 看總控你不知道啦有啦有啦 有知道啦他們兩個知道 你不知道啦我對 保安委員 這個案子我清楚這個案子我不是在講這個案子我是從這裡要來講管制的漏洞"},{"start":375.175,"end":392.186,"text":"一座焚化廠被定義為事業廢棄物焚化廠它的非灰的管制就會從環管署的軌道轉入循環署的軌道一般的家戶垃圾是哪個單位管的環管署那如果說我這個是事業廢棄物是誰"},{"start":399.666,"end":415.752,"text":"循環署所以他只要是事業廢棄物的焚化爐他就到循環署去了適用的就不是一般廢棄物的嚴格的標準喔而是事業廢棄物的較寬鬆的規範聽好清楚喔事業廢棄物的規範比家庭垃圾的規範更寬鬆"},{"start":425.001,"end":430.925,"text":"這樣你聽我 我就開宗明義破題就是講這個大家有我接受嗎 修事業廢棄物的安全環境風險標準比修家庭廢棄物的還更寬鬆這樣感覺 好來他現在只要說我是事業廢棄物分化爐非非他依照你們的辦法半年只需要進行一次TCLP檢驗"},{"start":451.016,"end":476.797,"text":"不用像加燒家庭垃圾出來的廢灰要安定化穩定化要融融處理直接燒失業廢棄物的廢灰就以物理的方式就直接再利用了燒家庭廢棄物的嚴格逐批檢查有沒有帶澳新然後做TCLP檢測失業廢棄物不用做帶澳新檢查只有做TCLP檢測然後呢"},{"start":479.602,"end":494.992,"text":"家庭廢棄物要安定化、無害化、穩定化、熔融化給它燒結不能夠有溶出的風險事業廢棄物更毒害的都不用不用直接拿去再利用物理上的處理我再問你一個TCLP你的事業廢棄物的非灰質做TCLP檢測TCLP可以檢出代澳新嗎有辦法做代澳新檢出的檢驗嗎"},{"start":510.676,"end":526.748,"text":"沒有辦法 TCLP是什麼實驗溶出的實驗 TCLP是它在模擬自然環境裡面長期空氣裡面酸與腐蝕然後看這個物質會不會溶出然後造成環境危害其實它是一個環境長期的"},{"start":529.61,"end":557.88,"text":"環境危害的 所以要做長期環境危害的風險評估而代澳鋅是一種毒性的代澳鋅物質的檢查代澳鋅是溶於脂肪 不溶於水啊你TCRP是促酸啦它根本不會溶出沒有辦法檢驗代澳鋅 這是基本的所以等於說你的試驗廢棄物的廢灰全部都沒有在檢查代澳鋅的啦"},{"start":558.854,"end":575.057,"text":"OK好我再講新竹縣這個例子回到這裡來我回到新竹這個例子來新竹縣政府依促三法以BOO的方式去設置的高效能垃圾熱處理設施就台榮啦反正就台榮這個案子一個月500噸年處理量15.5萬噸其中8萬噸是事業費75"},{"start":582.759,"end":585.544,"text":"一年預計7.5萬噸是生活垃圾為什麼他要這樣子設計 你知道嗎我剛才說那幾批這樣聽到嗎"},{"start":593.457,"end":610.662,"text":"還有為什麼要這樣子設計成一年收事業廢棄物更勝於家庭一般垃圾呢因為事業廢棄物的處理量過半他們那一個廠就被定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐營運資料不用進還管署的長期追蹤的SWIM系統"},{"start":621.038,"end":642.093,"text":"灰飛的管制也變得更寬鬆了據瞭解他2025年初然後就開始營運以來試營運以來現在呢一兩次只有一兩次的檢驗數據就將灰飛以一般性灰飛的名義送到台南全新公司去"},{"start":644.015,"end":664.049,"text":"預辦少量的水泥做成低密度控制性低強度的混凝土就是CLSM啦還有拿去填地填管溝一年只驗兩次抽驗不是逐批喔一般垃圾的會不會還要逐批他沒有一年抽驗兩次因為法律規定的因為你們規定的"},{"start":666.05,"end":693.987,"text":"他只要叫事業廢棄物就可以這樣子了送到台南全新去這一種強減的灰飛送到全新去大概2025年度送了4,034噸以每一噸廢棄物產出約3%的灰飛虧孤那個焚化量他一年大概2025年的確燒了13萬多噸幾乎他全年的灰飛全數都送到全新去全新"},{"start":696.401,"end":721.097,"text":"這一種東西你覺得做成再利用產品 品質會好嗎?不會 這個我簡單的說 第一個是這個台南市環保局已經沒關係你要跟我講全新的問題是另外一個問題但我跟你講是制度面 這不是台農只有一家台農這樣做大家都這樣子做而且這一種品質 事實上市場沒有人要買單啦"},{"start":722.518,"end":735.422,"text":"而且這種CLSM 我跟你講 做出來喔 都是虎氣的啦 虎氣的啦沒錯 市場沒人要買 我問你 市場沒人要買的抽象甘就繼續做 沒可能沒可能 這些東西早期到位早期到位 你確定他們有做成低密度的CLSM啊 低強度的嗎"},{"start":749.238,"end":769.136,"text":"沒有啦 不要騙啦 這是事業廢棄物的 我告訴你監察院有一個糾正報告啦監察院有一個糾正報告 他不是講事業廢棄物 他去看全國的所有的公有焚化爐的灰飛公有焚化爐的灰飛 我講過他一定要檢測帶藥芯嘛 然後他們有講 監察院這裡有講"},{"start":775.716,"end":791.944,"text":"公有焚化爐 家庭垃圾而已焚化灰飛因性質複雜 綠的含量高直接再利用 亦導致製成腐蝕受損所以灰飛長期以來均已固化掩埋處理目前再利用率仍約10%"},{"start":795.666,"end":814.824,"text":"一般家庭廢棄物燒出來的灰灰拿去再利用10%比這個風險更大然後檢測法律規定的更寬鬆的失業廢棄物的灰灰你說他拿去再利用 全部會再利用公有的再利用10% 他會是幾%不要騙人啦所以我要跟你說"},{"start":820.612,"end":826.335,"text":"非常令人不安的問題是我現在要講的你們的問題更嚴重環管署發現這個問題以後他想要到台融裡面去解采樣被新竹縣環保局拒絕阿會一位質詢合一來質詢主席 當然要質詢讓他們來質詢我們在質詢有人要討論"},{"start":848.646,"end":866.723,"text":"好 我現在講環管署發現要去採樣要檢查被新竹縣環保局拒絕然後呢環管署就跟你們循環署反映循環署無動於衷最後是北區督察大隊介入採樣才揭露這個問題這不禁讓人想要問說新竹縣"},{"start":871.887,"end":897.735,"text":"是唯一的這個案例嗎全台灣還有多少座試驗廢棄物焚化爐他們的灰灰都跑去哪裡家庭家戶垃圾公有焚化爐只有10%再利用率他們的更不可能比他們更好其他跑去哪裡被同樣當作一般性灰灰處理其他流向到底去哪裡你們報的出來 我就要問你一個問題"},{"start":901.53,"end":907.315,"text":"那當然有可能掩埋全台灣非灰掩埋廠的容量剩下多少你也不知道我們請署長回答好不好"},{"start":917.287,"end":945.836,"text":"他管的是公有分化爐我現在是最終處理叫做掩埋啊我們在說的就是這些東西我們拿去賣掉啦但是也有可能拿去賣掉問題是掩埋廠還有多少量可以賣掉不要騙啦到底還有多少量可以分買賣所以會記錄他的那個我再講輝飛的掩埋餘育量剩多少現在台灣剩下不多因為只剩下民間廠商不多是多少啦"},{"start":946.616,"end":953.819,"text":"不知道 好 回去 保證你也不知道 他也不知道啦我告訴你啦 沒人在掩埋都黑白的啦還有我跟你講喔 他們會回填管溝嘛 對不對可以回填管溝嗎假設說他已經完成了全新公司啦 全新公司做成低強度的混凝土可不可以回填管溝"},{"start":976.118,"end":985.004,"text":"他前面的話講的是說它是一般一般的話才能夠做成CLSM才能夠對啦我問你CLSM可不可以回転管溝你們用假的檢驗叫PCLP驗不出代澳薪然後它的風險就變成從有風險變成一般的管制一般的事業費器物的管制然後就可以做成CLSM"},{"start":999.875,"end":1003.297,"text":"CLSM可以去回填管溝保定你知道回填管溝有什麼風險嗎它是強潛對不對會腐蝕對不對會回填什麼管溝我問你中油如果它的油管天然氣管它的輸送回填那個管溝有沒有風險"},{"start":1017.984,"end":1039.442,"text":"自來水公司本來是塑膠管 現在全面改成鑄鐵管如果搶檢放進去有沒有風險還有一般民間的化學油槽 化學管的輸送然後都是鑄鐵管 如果沒有包覆一個特殊的包材特殊的包材包上去很貴"},{"start":1040.703,"end":1053.449,"text":"沒有的話回田管溝請問自來水水管的鑄鐵管據我所知台北市有包覆包材台灣省的沒有啦沒錢嘛就鑄鐵管有沒有風險漏水的風險有沒有可能中油的油管天然氣管有沒有包覆它的鑄鐵管有沒有包覆沒有包覆有沒有風險"},{"start":1063.22,"end":1083.458,"text":"他們有沒有使用低密度的CLSM 低強度的有啊 法律可以允許啊油管 化學管可不可以回填可不可以那個 可以啊有沒有風險保證你可以說沒有啦 不會馬上就就腐蝕啦 會要經過很多年才會腐蝕啦是吧保證是不是"},{"start":1087.503,"end":1105.939,"text":"我說這都是事實 正在發生 已經發生喔因為我看過我們全面汰換致癌水管然後你把有毒的 強檢的通通回填管溝CLSM拿去回填管溝全台灣最小的CLSM不用再買水買土 也不用再買水泥 人家送你的回填管溝有啊"},{"start":1115.95,"end":1133.757,"text":"會不會贏?不會贏的啊有沒有公共危害?有啊好好 鮑偉我回應一下第一個是新竹這個案例是非常特殊幾個月前我已經有看到相關的資料也進行了該有的、必要的這個檢查程式我知道啦 這個個案我知道但我現在跟你講是從這個個案我去告訴你全台灣只要叫做四葉廢棄物焚化爐的都一樣啦"},{"start":1143.34,"end":1155.011,"text":"都一樣不要只講分新竹在你制度面你的揮揮管制的雙軌的制度的漏洞而且你把高風險的管制的更鬆"},{"start":1156.84,"end":1170.816,"text":"各位報告那我們現在CFHU呢他是他的規定是要經過檢測那我還有什麼檢測你用檢測兩個字你也未免太糊弄我了我又不是不知道是你們有什麼檢測那各位直接報告就是現在你們檢測的頻率我剛剛講一般"},{"start":1173.719,"end":1195.635,"text":"三垃圾焚化廠的灰灰每一批燒出來他要做代澳新檢測還做TCLP你們的事業廢棄物焚化爐的灰灰半年TCLP抽一次處理後產品可以測這種東西測不出代澳新啦你沒有特殊的代澳新你們都知道代澳新是不能用TCLP檢測出來的"},{"start":1197.734,"end":1223.513,"text":"所以呢這個是檢測頻率你們也不足人家每批風險相對低的是每批你們風險高的是半年才抽人家再利用的限制是每一批出來都要穩定化安定化無害化融融化才可以再利用你們是不用你們的失業費幾乎是可以物理處理的方式直接做成CLSM就回田田地也可以 田管溝也可以"},{"start":1224.517,"end":1250.853,"text":"而且你們的人家一般垃圾焚化爐公有焚化爐燒出來飛灰要經過中央主管機關許可才能再利用啊你們是直接有許可證直接就繼續去利用然後呢人家一般公有垃圾一般垃圾燒出來飛灰要納管到SWIMS追蹤監測系統而你們環管署是申報一下有報就好了"},{"start":1252.028,"end":1271.672,"text":"因為法規上漏洞這麼嚴重包委員那我這個會後再提供詳細我不要提供詳細資料那目前就是在失業廢棄文化裡面它基本上灰灰跟渣是分開的而且它都會進行檢測那灰灰的部分絕大部分都是去固化掩埋或者是像台灣鋼連去做那個熱處理你現在不要再說這個了什麼台灣鋼連你有法律強制規定你的失業廢棄物一定要到台灣鋼連裡面燒解融融嗎有規定嗎沒有"},{"start":1281.954,"end":1286.74,"text":"法律有規定嗎你講的是如果發現檢出有害物質的話才要這樣子沒有的話是沒有餒人家一般垃圾燒出來就一定要逐批驗然後都一定要燒融安定化無害化你們沒有 沒有"},{"start":1303.772,"end":1323.198,"text":"所以到底我現在要問你這個問題你聽得到嗎我現在不是在說新竹而已我再跟你講你灰灰管制上你從它這個焚化爐的廠別的定義你決定了它的管制強度不一樣變成雙軌而且是高風險的管制的鬆"},{"start":1324.258,"end":1346.476,"text":"相對低風險的管制的嚴 這樣會不會危險的在台灣現行制度下 焚化灰灰的管制強度是取決於焚化爐的定義是一般垃圾焚化爐 還是失業廢棄物焚化爐而不是取決於灰灰本身的化學特性 風險危害沒有耶 寶定 你也說兩句啊"},{"start":1350.86,"end":1356.585,"text":"我回去會再來瞭解然後這個如何在法規上面做一個精進或調整"},{"start":1357.815,"end":1380.048,"text":"這個刻不容緩啊 是不是說不論焚化廠它是哪一種焚化廠灰飛只要是灰飛它的很多的風險和有害的特性會是很像的特別是事業廢棄物的風險更高它還有高濃度的重金屬 鉛 鎘 鎘 鎘 鎘帶澳新 湖南或其他有毒的物質"},{"start":1381.148,"end":1405.101,"text":"這些垃圾的特性 這有毒毒害的特性不會因為它的焚化爐叫做什麼名字就改變所以現行制度卻允許說焚化廠的名字不一樣管理的就不一樣因為產源定性不同就適用截然不同的管制標準這是不應該的而且我一直在講TCLP去判定制度讓灰飛有機會逃脫有害的認定"},{"start":1407.702,"end":1434.093,"text":"你們就是用TCLP在半年抽驗一次啊因為你們有害事業廢棄物認定標準獎焚化的灰灰他沒有直接列入附表的製成有害事業廢棄物喔沒有喔代耗心是最大的風險可是你們沒有檢測代耗心以外你用TCLP的容出去判定是不是有害而且判定有沒有代耗心這就是作假"},{"start":1434.932,"end":1451.691,"text":"用TCLP去判定有沒有戴耗心這是不可能的絕對無法容出的所以你們的數據用這個來包庇他變成不是有害的這個就是作假跟包庇所以呢"},{"start":1453.035,"end":1471.788,"text":"只要某次數據檢測未超過TCLP的溶出標準會非全台灣的試驗廢棄物用一個檢查不出有毒物質的PCLP的檢測方法就歸類為一般試驗廢棄物這就是問題你知道這就是問題蛤"},{"start":1478.496,"end":1490.78,"text":"我已經講很多年了我知道那我是第一次聽你講那我這個會回去來了解那必要的時候就來檢討但是公有公有焚化爐有改啊可是他們你們遇到事業廢棄物的焚化爐這些民間財團自己經營的焚化爐就不敢改"},{"start":1496.121,"end":1521.181,"text":"那我要再講說新竹的案例曝露的不是只有灰飛的問題而且還有中央管理系體系的缺陷一座一天處理250噸生活垃圾的大型設施資料卻不在環管署的SWIM系統因為它是事業廢棄物焚化爐嘛等於是中央對全台灣一般廢棄物處理量能的掌握出現缺口"},{"start":1522.657,"end":1546.092,"text":"而且同時在這裡環管署跟循環署之間全責劃分產生灰色地帶環管署在新竹這個個案上發現問題卻被擋在門外然後他們告知循環署 循環署沒有無動於衷延遲行動然後地方政府還可以依場別的定性拒絕中央進場查核"},{"start":1547.152,"end":1551.295,"text":"這一個問題制度面的問題管理制度面的問題全責釐清的問題絕對不會只有這一個場任何一座同時處理生活垃圾跟事業廢棄物但是被定義為事業廢棄物分化廠的設施都出現同樣的監督缺口所以在這裡"},{"start":1568.144,"end":1595.259,"text":"此外還有一些部分焚化爐像桃園的新榮焚化廠桃園它本來是以BOO的模式營運垃圾焚化廠合約屆期以後它變成民有民營的廢棄物處理廠它的管制標準也降階 降階保安局這問題很嚴重這是你們內部這光是管理的體系都出問題制度面都出問題這邊怎麼管"},{"start":1599.135,"end":1618.042,"text":"這個問題新竹的部分我們已經我說從新竹你看到你還管署要進去他不能進去不給他進去找你們還管署還管署說我不管現在要怎麼辦不會他們沒有他們已經有在管我講的就是事實啊當然有在管啊如果慢了幾拍啊慢了很多拍啦地方政府不讓你們進去這個問題怎麼解決"},{"start":1622.623,"end":1646.576,"text":"這個是整個大制度他這個案子本身就有一定的這個案子新竹這個案子本身就有他的這個問題存在所以我們目前制度面有沒有問題有問題要不要改這個目前第一個是他的有沒有違法的問題這個有單位正在偵辦當中我們暴力在這邊說這個就不要講這個個案我都講弊案我也不講啦我在講制度"},{"start":1647.711,"end":1666.758,"text":"就是你有責任的制度制度的部分我會再來檢討改進好 我現在再告訴你國際上對焚化灰灰的基準判斷相當一致反正灰灰它含有很多的重金屬 氮澳鋅等持久性的有機污染物國際都把它優先視為是危險或特別管理的廢棄物"},{"start":1667.458,"end":1682.591,"text":"而絕對不是像台灣一樣把它列為是一般廢棄物日本的學界在整理廢棄物處理及清掃法的修法歷程的時候明確指出一般廢棄物焚化揮飛自1991年起就納入1991年 30幾年前就納入了特別管理廢棄物的範圍"},{"start":1689.617,"end":1696.604,"text":"因為它的風險特別高而不會說它是燒一般垃圾的灰灰和燒世界廢棄物的灰灰然後跟台灣一樣人的病風險高的寬鬆 絕對不可能歐盟在廢棄物的目錄中將含危險物質的焚化灰灰編為代碼190103加星字號標示為危險廢棄物"},{"start":1713.28,"end":1732.791,"text":"而且要求要依廢棄物框架指令所列的危害特性就HP1到HP15判定是不是屬於危險廢棄物凸顯了它的高風險本質而日本在處理的技術上他特別管理這個特別管理廢棄物的會飛都要融融"},{"start":1733.852,"end":1751.322,"text":"要燒解 要讓它無害化 水泥固化 化學穩定化使重金屬和代號芯固定在穩定的向中通過最終的處分場然後收納的標準 才可以掩埋或有限度的利用"},{"start":1752.282,"end":1773.42,"text":"然後在歐盟呢 文化的非非管理不僅是說是否危險廢棄物的分類它含危險物質的非非被編定為190103新制號是否危險廢棄物我剛剛講了 還需要符合這個廢棄物框架指令附入3所界定的多重危害特性 毒性 腐蝕性 生態毒性等"},{"start":1774.361,"end":1792.747,"text":"那歐盟在埋田廠的指令進一步規範危險廢棄物掩埋場對廢棄的收納標準還必須考慮重金屬溶出溶解性鹽類有機碳等指標而不是單一的TCLP的數據就判定依據所以歐盟每一個"},{"start":1794.407,"end":1821.326,"text":"完整的管理鏈從危險分類經過預處理穩定化到最終也買場收納標準都有很明確的技術門檻跟監測方法絕對不可能像台灣用少次的TCLP檢驗就把大量的灰灰物質視為一般廢棄物然後去做CLSM回點管溝再利用然後呢還有亂丟的"},{"start":1823.587,"end":1847.713,"text":"所以現行的有害失業廢棄物認定標準高度的然後用TCLP單一溶出實驗這種是環境風險實驗不是有毒有害物質檢查實驗然後你們這樣子去包庇掩護有毒的戴奧馨所以在這種狀況裡面當然大家都逃過有害廢棄物的分類的管制"},{"start":1848.673,"end":1871.835,"text":"所以台灣是這樣子 那從國際NGO的角度來看焚化燴灰的風險都被認為是長期低估的國際持久性的有機污染物消除網絡IPEN在一個after incineration toxic ash problem的報告裡面它系統性的分析 多國焚化燴灰樣本"},{"start":1873.496,"end":1882.513,"text":"指出灰飛碗碗成宅的焚化體系當中多數的代澳新的負荷而我們都知道代澳新會怎樣"},{"start":1884.229,"end":1906.036,"text":"有什麼人體風險大阿新的人體風險是什麼很毒的四肢之毒會致癌致癌它的毒性在現行排放和風險評估框架下常被低估所以IPEN他們主張各國在實踐巴薩爾公約和持有性有機污染物管理時應該針對會會採取更嚴格的限職和危險廢棄物的認定標準"},{"start":1911.258,"end":1935.775,"text":"避免匯匯藉由再利用的名義進入循環的體系而台灣呢台灣呢我剛剛講喔我再講一個數據喔這個監察院的數據因為一般垃圾公有焚化爐有監測我就講了他們每一批都要監測帶耗芯事實上呢他們在公有焚化廠匯匯穩定化的帶耗芯及重金屬減重"},{"start":1937.737,"end":1959.918,"text":"檢測結果 監察院報告 112到113年期間檢測的最大值戴奧辛毒性當量濃度 每每很多場像樹林八里 像後里烏日 像台中文山 像新店 像北投"},{"start":1960.999,"end":1987.173,"text":"其實它的濃度都非常接近臨界值管理的臨界值0.9 0.8 0.7 0.96都接近臨界值一般生活垃圾它的灰飛就是它的代號性都接近臨界值你看那些事業廢棄物多嚴重會更嚴重所以現在有幾座被定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐的焚化設施寶丁你知道嗎"},{"start":1991.107,"end":1998.633,"text":"全台灣有幾座 焚化設施是定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐的大型小型一共有幾座你不知道 這裡的書店也不知道 藥物單位也不知道"},{"start":2007.385,"end":2027.534,"text":"委員這個部分我們回去再做一個完整的一個通盤的檢討因為法律如果需要修的話我們絕對責務旁貸很多 要修的很多各事業廢棄物文化有產生的會不會用什麼代碼去申報然後各廠這些事業廢棄物的各廠的會不會TCLP的檢測還有戴耀新的歷次檢測數據頻率還有次數還有數據是怎麼樣"},{"start":2032.864,"end":2048.711,"text":"不知道顯然不知道嘛提供資料來所以你們中央對事業廢棄物焚化廠灰飛的流向你們不在乎你們也沒有找缺乏基本的掌握所以你根本不知道有沒有被不當的處理有沒有亂丟"},{"start":2050.506,"end":2065.436,"text":"通通都不知道公有的只有百分之十在利用其他跑去哪裡民間的通通都跑去哪裡不知道然後呢我剛剛講的新榮桃園新榮焚化廠本來用BOO或BOT營運的這個焚化廠合約借起後變成民有民營的廢棄物處理廠他的匯費管制就從他本來燒一般垃圾降階為事業廢棄物焚化廠"},{"start":2080.746,"end":2082.168,"text":"他的管制就鬆綁了管理就降階了啊這種東西你要怎麼補這個漏洞"},{"start":2091.102,"end":2114.588,"text":"這個也是問題耶我本來是本來是BOT在燒一般垃圾的現在時間到了我變成民營的我要燒失業費器物了他的揮飛的管理就降階了以前是BOT公委託公部門委託你經營的時候你的揮飛的管制是每批都要驗的啊做無害化安定化穩定化融融現在都沒有了現在降階了都不知道了那你修訂的法規這麼多"},{"start":2123.447,"end":2146.026,"text":"這個問題這麼多然後呢你這個整個修法大概要多久的時間然後整體我剛剛講的問題很多委員我先回去了解一下整個的狀況然後我們再排定一個計畫再跟委員來討教謝謝你要多久啦我們不想要拖啦更不要講說事實上都亂丟啦灰飛都亂丟啦"},{"start":2149.823,"end":2163.386,"text":"風險最大的 做成CLSM的 未來的石油管自然水管 天然氣管 化學管大家自求多福啦 什麼時候會不會腐蝕腐蝕要很久 20年 30年啦等到哪一天氣爆也不足為期了 30年後漏水 漏水就漏水 鑄鐵管漏水"},{"start":2176.403,"end":2185.323,"text":"所以你是不是要跨部門 跨單位去跟他們討論其實他們的鑄鐵管都要包覆防鏽 防屎 對不對"},{"start":2187.348,"end":2211.884,"text":"知事體大 不要一天大碗講綠能啦不要一天大碗在講暖化你的最正本清源環境部最該管的就是這些垃圾 失業廢棄物啦跟人民健康風險 跟環境土地有沒有汙染最攸關的就是失業廢棄物的管理政策啦從以前就輕放到現在好 謝謝"},{"start":2216.312,"end":2216.333,"text":"好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:09.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:09.693000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:11.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:11.293000+08:00","text":"請彭部長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:12.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:12.494000+08:00","text":"有請彭部長。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:16.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:16.415000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:17.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:17.656000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:19.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:43.451000+08:00","text":"全臺灣非事業廢棄物，也就是一般家庭垃圾的焚化廠每年大概處理650萬噸廢棄物，是吧？是。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:43.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:19:44.091000+08:00","text":"然後產出90萬噸的底渣和20萬噸的飛灰？是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:19:51.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:20:58.671000+08:00","text":"這些都納入環管署的SWIMS系統去管理，飛灰的處理有很明確的規範，依照一般廢棄物回收清除處理辦法第二十七條，聽好喔，這個是家庭產出的垃圾、家庭一般垃圾，不是事業廢棄物，而是家庭的垃圾，由環管署管理，清除處理辦法第二十七條講必須逐批，尤其是它的衍生物，我講飛灰，它的衍生物必須每一批都要採穩定化法、熔融法或其他經中央主管機關許可之處理方法，處理以後，必須安定化、無害化、穩定化，之後每一批還要進行戴奧辛檢測，是另外檢測，戴奧辛檢測以外，還要進行TCLP的溶出檢測，對吧？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:20:59.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:21:00.071000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:21:00.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:21:46.218000+08:00","text":"好，我要討論飛灰管制的制度問題之前，我先先從新竹焚化爐的問題來談，2019年4月新竹縣長楊文科在施政報告當中，他規劃要興建焚化爐，招標的具體內容還沒有公開，他在4月公開說要興建一個焚化爐，台鎔在5月就馬上去買了6筆土地，這6筆土地剛好在2002年，那個地方已經通過環評的焚化爐預定地了，所以大家都在講這個好像很厲害。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:21:47.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:22:22.252000+08:00","text":"三個月後，縣政府就正式公告他們要蓋的焚化爐是要用BOO案的方式去蓋，所以廠商要自己準備土地，他用BOO以後就排除了本來有意要投標的日本、歐美業者都紛紛退出，變成台鎔成為唯一符合資格的投標者，獨家得標。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:22:22.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:22:37.986000+08:00","text":"外界議論副縣長的配偶，就等於副縣長他們家，才發現他們擁有台鎔的股票500張，現在價值也不斐，有沒有利益迴避，大家都嚴重質疑。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:22:39.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:23:05.223000+08:00","text":"大家也在講新竹縣政府的BOO的合約條件被批評遠遠比同級的案件條件訂得非常的差，非常不利於縣政府、非常有利於業者，包括合約規定每天500噸處理的量能，一半（250噸）要給事業廢棄物，250噸要給民生垃圾，但是光是新竹縣自己每天的民生垃圾就280噸，所以光是要處理他們新竹縣自己的垃圾都還不夠。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:23:20.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:23:50.853000+08:00","text":"大家都知道處理生活垃圾收的錢少，處理事業廢棄物收的錢才多，但是現在它要燒你的生活垃圾，這個焚化爐1噸要收2,100元，如果超量要加價到2,520元，回饋金遠低於桃園跟高雄的每噸400元，回饋金每噸僅100元，焚化發電收益全部都歸焚化廠廠商所有。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:23:51.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:23:52.134000+08:00","text":"這個東西這樣公布以後，台鎔科技在2025年合併營收，因為這個案子大幅成長近六成，賺死！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:23:52.134000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:23:53.134000+08:00","text":"賺得很！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:23:52.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:33.574000+08:00","text":"但是我今天不是要說這個焚化廠背後的利益結構和官商勾結，我不是要講這個，我是要講這座焚化廠所暴露的環境的、環保的制度漏洞，比這一個個案爭議有沒有圖利還更嚴重的，攸關到全民的制度面缺失，其實就是飛灰管制的雙軌漏洞。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:33.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:34.615000+08:00","text":"部長，飛灰管制的雙軌漏洞，你知不知道？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:34.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:35.816000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個案子是非常特殊的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:35.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:54.082000+08:00","text":"我沒有講這個，我在講飛灰管制雙軌的漏洞，你們在飛灰管理上的漏洞，大家都知道，飛灰問題很嚴重，部長不知道啦！","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:54.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:54.502000+08:00","text":"看狀況，你不知道，都不知道？","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:54.502000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:55.502000+08:00","text":"沒關係……","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:54.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:54.922000+08:00","text":"有啦、有啦，知道啦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:55.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:55.883000+08:00","text":"他們兩個知道，你不知道啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:56.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:24:56.524000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個案子，我清楚，這個案子……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:24:56.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:24.264000+08:00","text":"我不是在講這個案子，我是從這裡要來講管制的漏洞，一座焚化廠被定義為事業廢棄物焚化廠，它的飛灰管制，就會從環管署的軌道轉入循環署的軌道。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:25.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:27.426000+08:00","text":"一般的家戶垃圾是哪個單位管的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:27.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:27.506000+08:00","text":"環管署。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:27.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:28.186000+08:00","text":"對，如果這個是事業廢棄物，是誰管理？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:28.186000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:35.666000+08:00","text":"循環署。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:35.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:25:49.451000+08:00","text":"循環署，所以只要是事業廢棄物的焚化爐，它就到循環署去了，適用的就不是一般廢棄物的嚴格標準，而是事業廢棄物較寬鬆的規範。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:25:49.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:26:01.401000+08:00","text":"聽清楚喔，事業廢棄物的規範比家庭垃圾的規範更寬鬆，這樣你聽懂了？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:26:01.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:26:03.643000+08:00","text":"我開宗明義破題就是講這個，大家有辦法接受嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:26:03.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:26:04.943000+08:00","text":"燒事業廢棄物的安全環境、風險標準，比燒家庭廢棄物的還更寬鬆，這樣對嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:26:05.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:27:08.710000+08:00","text":"好，現在它只要說它是事業廢棄物焚化爐，它依照你們的辦法，飛灰半年只需要進行一次TCLP檢驗，不用像燒家庭垃圾出來的飛灰，要安定化、穩定化，要熔融處理，直接燒事業廢棄物的飛灰，以物理的方式就直接再利用了，燒家庭廢棄物就嚴格逐批檢查有沒有戴奧辛，還要做TCLP檢測，事業廢棄物不用做戴奧辛檢查，只有做TCLP檢測，然後家庭廢棄物要安定化、無害化、穩定化、熔融化，給它燒結，不能夠有溶出的風險，但是事業廢棄物更毒害的都不用，直接拿去再利用，物理上的處理。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:27:08.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:27:10.531000+08:00","text":"我現在要問你，事業廢棄物的飛灰只做TCLP檢測，TCLP可以檢出戴奧辛嗎？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:27:10.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:27:10.992000+08:00","text":"有辦法做戴奧辛檢出的檢驗嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:27:10.992000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:27:26.676000+08:00","text":"沒有辦法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:27:26.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:27:26.996000+08:00","text":"沒有辦法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:27:27.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:27:28.137000+08:00","text":"TCLP是什麼實驗？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:27:28.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:27:30.519000+08:00","text":"溶出的實驗。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:27:30.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:28:13.860000+08:00","text":"TCLP是它在模擬自然環境長期空氣裡面酸雨腐蝕，然後看這個物質會不會溶出，造成環境危害，其實它是一個長期的環境危害，所以要做長期環境危害的風險評估，而戴奧辛檢測是一種毒性戴奧辛物質的檢查，戴奧辛是溶於脂肪，不溶於水；TCLP是醋酸，它根本不會溶出，沒有辦法檢驗戴奧辛，這是基本的，所以等於事業廢棄物的飛灰全部都沒有檢查戴奧辛的啦。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:28:15.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:28:41.163000+08:00","text":"好，我再講新竹縣這個例子，回到這裡來，我回到新竹這個例子，新竹縣政府依促參法以BOO的方式去設置的高效能垃圾熱處理設施，反正就是台鎔這個案子，一個月500噸，年處理量15.5萬噸，其中8萬噸是事業廢棄物，一年預計7.5萬噸是生活垃圾，為什麼它要這樣子設計，你知道嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:28:41.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:28:41.544000+08:00","text":"我剛才說那一大篇，這樣聽得懂嗎？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:28:50.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:28:58.039000+08:00","text":"台鎔為什麼要這樣子設計成一年收事業廢棄物更勝於家庭一般垃圾呢？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:28:58.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:29:20.220000+08:00","text":"因為事業廢棄物的處理量過半，他們那一個廠就被定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐，營運資料不用進環管署長期追蹤的SWIMS系統，飛灰的管制也變得更寬鬆了。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:29:21.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:30:04.031000+08:00","text":"據了解，它2025年初開始試營運以來，現在只有一、兩次的檢驗數據，就將飛灰以一般性飛灰的名義送到臺南全興公司去，預拌少量水泥做成控制性低強度的混凝土，就是CLSM，還有拿去填地、填管溝，一年只驗兩次，只是抽驗而不是逐批，一般垃圾的飛灰要逐批，它沒有，一年抽驗兩次，因為法律規定的、因為你們規定的，它只要叫「事業廢棄物」，就可以這樣子了。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:30:04.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:30:28.506000+08:00","text":"這一種強鹼的飛灰送到臺南全興，大概2025年度送了4,034噸，以每一噸廢棄物產出約3%的飛灰推估，2025年一年的焚化量的確燒了十三萬多噸，幾乎它全年的飛灰全數都送到全興。","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:30:32.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:30:39.926000+08:00","text":"這一種東西你覺得做成再利用產品，品質會好嗎？不會。不會？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:30:39.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:30:40.906000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個我簡單地說。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:30:40.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:30:44.449000+08:00","text":"第一個，臺南市環保局已經……我們環管署已經依法告發了。","quality":0.478},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:30:44.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:30:44.849000+08:00","text":"沒關係！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:30:44.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:30:48.371000+08:00","text":"你要跟我講全興的問題是另外一回事，但我跟你講的是制度面。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:30:49.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:30:52.514000+08:00","text":"這不是只有一家台鎔這樣做，大家都這樣子做。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:30:54.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:30:57.077000+08:00","text":"這一種品質，事實上市場沒有人要買單啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:30:58.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:31:04.120000+08:00","text":"而且我跟你說，這種CLSM做出來的都是劣質的啦！","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:31:07.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:31:08.261000+08:00","text":"部長，我問你，市場沒人要買，廠商會繼續做嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:31:08.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:31:08.841000+08:00","text":"不可能！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:31:08.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:31:09.061000+08:00","text":"不可能的話，那這些東西跑去哪裡？","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:31:10.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:31:11.422000+08:00","text":"你確定他們有做成低強度的CLSM嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:31:25.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:31:26.539000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:31:26.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:31:27.100000+08:00","text":"不要騙了啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:31:27.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:31:27.920000+08:00","text":"這是事業廢棄物的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:31:28.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:31:40.412000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，監察院有一個糾正報告，它不是講事業廢棄物，它是去看全國所有公有焚化爐的飛灰。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:31:41.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:31:44.135000+08:00","text":"我講過，公有焚化爐的飛灰一定要檢測戴奧辛嘛！","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:31:44.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:31:53.837000+08:00","text":"監察院這裡有講，家庭垃圾而已哦！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:31:55.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:17.171000+08:00","text":"公有焚化爐焚化飛灰因性質複雜，氯的含量高，直接再利用易導致製程腐蝕受損，所以飛灰長期以來均以固化掩埋處理，目前再利用率仍約10%，一般家庭廢棄物燒出來的飛灰拿去再利用是10%。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:17.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:27.300000+08:00","text":"比這個風險更大、檢測法律規定得更寬鬆的事業廢棄物的飛灰，你說它拿去再利用，全部會再利用？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:28.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:29.603000+08:00","text":"公有的再利用10%，那它會是百分之幾？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:29.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:29.803000+08:00","text":"不要騙了啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:30.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:40.134000+08:00","text":"所以我要跟你說，非常令人不安的問題是我現在要講的，你們的問題更嚴重！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:40.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:41.675000+08:00","text":"環管署發現這個問題以後，他想要到台鎔裡面去採樣，被新竹縣環保局拒絕。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:41.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:42.015000+08:00","text":"主席，如果他要質詢，就讓他來質詢。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:32:42.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:32:42.335000+08:00","text":"我們在質詢，有人要討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:04.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:33:21.982000+08:00","text":"好，我現在講，環管署發現，要採樣、要檢查，被新竹縣環保局拒絕，然後環管署就跟你們循環署反映，循環署無動於衷，最後是北區督察大隊介入採樣才揭露這個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:21.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:33:30.328000+08:00","text":"這不禁讓人想要問，新竹縣是唯一的案例嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:30.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:33:37.350000+08:00","text":"全臺灣還有多少座事業廢棄物焚化爐，他們的飛灰都跑去哪裡？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:37.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:33:44.572000+08:00","text":"家庭家戶垃圾公有焚化爐只有10%再利用率，他們的不可能比他們更好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:45.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:33:47.653000+08:00","text":"其他的跑去哪裡？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:47.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:33:52.815000+08:00","text":"被同樣當作一般性飛灰處理，其他流向到底去哪裡？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:52.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:33:53.735000+08:00","text":"你們報得出來，我就要問你一個問題。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:57.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:33:58.411000+08:00","text":"部長，他當然有可能掩埋。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:33:59.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:02.675000+08:00","text":"全臺灣飛灰掩埋場的容量剩下多少？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:02.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:03.075000+08:00","text":"你也不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:03.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:03.295000+08:00","text":"我們請署長回答，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:13.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:19.669000+08:00","text":"他管的是公有焚化爐，我現在問的是最終處理，叫做掩埋啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:19.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:25.131000+08:00","text":"我們在說的是這些東西都被拿去亂丟，但是也有可能就拿去掩埋啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:25.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:27.251000+08:00","text":"問題是掩埋場還有多少量可以埋？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:28.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:28.652000+08:00","text":"不要騙啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:28.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:29.892000+08:00","text":"到底還有多少量可以埋？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林副署長健三","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:29.892000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:32.253000+08:00","text":"事業廢棄物的……","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:32.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:36.854000+08:00","text":"我在講飛灰的掩埋餘裕量剩多少？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林副署長健三","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:37.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:40.235000+08:00","text":"現在臺灣剩下不多，因為只剩下民間廠商。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:40.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:41.816000+08:00","text":"不多是多少啦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:42.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:43.056000+08:00","text":"不知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:43.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:43.997000+08:00","text":"好，回去！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:44.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:45.878000+08:00","text":"部長你也不知道，他也不知道啦！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:45.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:45.958000+08:00","text":"我告訴你啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:46.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:47.478000+08:00","text":"沒人在掩埋，都亂丟了啦！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:47.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:47.838000+08:00","text":"還有，我跟你講喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:47.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:48.039000+08:00","text":"他們會回填管溝嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:48.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:48.079000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:48.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:48.339000+08:00","text":"可以回填管溝嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副署長健三","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:48.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:48.559000+08:00","text":"假設說他已經完成了前面的部分……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:34:48.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:34:49.819000+08:00","text":"全興公司做成低強度的混凝土，可不可以回填管溝？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林副署長健三","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:12.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:16.761000+08:00","text":"他前面講的是說它是一般，一般才能夠做成CLSM，才能夠回填管溝。對啊！","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:16.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:17.562000+08:00","text":"我問你，CLSM可不可以回填管溝？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:17.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:37.196000+08:00","text":"你們用假的檢驗，叫TCLP，驗不出戴奧辛，它的風險就從有風險變成一般的事業廢棄物的管制，然後就可以做成CLSM，CLSM可以去回填管溝。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:37.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:37.776000+08:00","text":"部長，你知道回填管溝有什麼風險嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:37.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:37.936000+08:00","text":"它是強鹼，對不對？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:37.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:38.076000+08:00","text":"會腐蝕，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:38.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:38.236000+08:00","text":"會回填什麼管溝？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:38.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:39.297000+08:00","text":"我問你，中油的油管、天然氣管，回填輸送管溝有沒有風險？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:53.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:35:58.728000+08:00","text":"自來水公司本來是塑膠管，現在全面改成鑄鐵管。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:35:59.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:03.072000+08:00","text":"如果強鹼放進去，有沒有風險？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:03.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:25.447000+08:00","text":"還有一般民間的化學油槽、化學管的輸送都是鑄鐵管，如果沒有包覆一個特殊的包材，特殊的包材包上去很貴，沒有的話，回填管溝……請問自來水水管的鑄鐵管，據我所知，臺北市有包覆包材，臺灣省的沒有啦！","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:25.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:25.547000+08:00","text":"沒錢嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:25.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:26.068000+08:00","text":"鑄鐵管有沒有漏水的風險？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:26.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:26.828000+08:00","text":"有沒有可能？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:26.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:28.169000+08:00","text":"中油的油管、天然氣管有沒有包覆？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:28.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:28.909000+08:00","text":"它的鑄鐵管有沒有包覆？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:29.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:29.349000+08:00","text":"沒有包覆。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:29.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:29.449000+08:00","text":"有沒有風險？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:39.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:43.123000+08:00","text":"他們有沒有使用低強度的CLSM？有啊！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:43.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:44.405000+08:00","text":"法律可以允許啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:45.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:47.227000+08:00","text":"油管、化學管可不可以回填？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:47.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:48.868000+08:00","text":"可以啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:49.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:51.651000+08:00","text":"有沒有風險？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:51.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:52.812000+08:00","text":"部長，你可以說：「沒有啦！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:53.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:56.115000+08:00","text":"不會馬上就腐蝕啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:56.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:36:58.397000+08:00","text":"要經過很多年才會腐蝕啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:36:58.397000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:03.503000+08:00","text":"」部長，是這樣的嗎？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:03.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:06.486000+08:00","text":"我說的這些都是事實，正在發生，已經發生哦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:07.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:18.456000+08:00","text":"因為我看過我們全面汰換自來水管，然後你把有毒的強鹼通通回填管溝，CLSM拿去回填管溝。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:18.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:21.919000+08:00","text":"全臺灣最便宜的CLSM，不用再買沙、買土，也不用買什麼水泥，人家送你的回填管溝，便宜嗎？有啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:21.919000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:31.950000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:31.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:32.611000+08:00","text":"不行啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:33.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:34.771000+08:00","text":"有沒有公共危害？有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:37.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:38.153000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我回應一下。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:38.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:47.476000+08:00","text":"第一個，新竹這個案例非常特殊，幾個月前我已經有看到相關的資料，也進行了該有的、必要的檢查程式……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:47.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:47.996000+08:00","text":"我知道啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:37:48.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:37:49.737000+08:00","text":"這個個案我知道，但我現在跟你講的是，從這個個案我去告訴你，全臺灣只要叫做事業廢棄物焚化爐的都一樣啦！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:00.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:11.011000+08:00","text":"不要只講新竹，這是你制度面，你的飛灰管制雙軌制度的漏洞，而且你把高風險的管制得更鬆！","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:13.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:18.026000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們現在事業廢棄物的規定是要經過檢測，我還有……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:18.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:18.787000+08:00","text":"什麼檢測？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:18.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:22.571000+08:00","text":"你用「檢測」兩個字，你也未免太糊弄我了，我又不是不知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:23.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:24.874000+08:00","text":"你們有什麼檢測？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:25.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:26.416000+08:00","text":"跟委員直接報告，現在事業廢棄物焚化爐的飛灰……","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:26.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:35.724000+08:00","text":"你們檢測的頻率……我剛剛講，一般垃圾焚化廠的飛灰每一批燒出來，它要做戴奧辛檢測，還要做TCLP。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:36.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:47.652000+08:00","text":"你們的事業廢棄物焚化爐的飛灰半年TCLP抽一次，處理後產品可以測……這種東西測不出戴奧辛啦！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:49.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:38:56.396000+08:00","text":"你們都知道戴奧辛是不能用TCLP檢測出來的，所以這個是檢測頻率，你們也不足。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:38:56.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:10.866000+08:00","text":"人家風險相對低的是每批，你們風險高的是半年才抽；人家再利用的限制是每一批出來都要穩定化、安定化、無害化、熔融化，才可以再利用；你們是不用！","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:11.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:19.493000+08:00","text":"你們的事業廢棄物是可以物理處理的方式直接做成CLSM就回填，填地也可以，填管溝也可以。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:20.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:33.525000+08:00","text":"而且人家一般垃圾焚化爐、公有焚化爐燒出來的飛灰要經過中央主管機關許可才能再利用，你們是有許可證就直接繼續去利用。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:35.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:49.888000+08:00","text":"人家一般公有垃圾燒出來的飛灰要納管到SWIMS追蹤監測系統，而你們環管署是申報一下，有報就好了，因為法規上漏洞這麼嚴重。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:50.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:53.069000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我會後再提供詳細資料，再跟委員辦公室報告。","quality":0.435},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:53.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:39:54.669000+08:00","text":"我不要提供詳細資料。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":"2026-04-08T11:39:55.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:01.131000+08:00","text":"目前在事業廢棄物焚化裡面，它基本上飛灰跟渣是分開的，而且都會進行檢測。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:01.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:05.371000+08:00","text":"飛灰的部分絕大部分都是去固化掩埋，或者是像台灣鋼聯去做熱處理。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:05.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:05.632000+08:00","text":"你現在就不要再說這個了！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:05.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:05.712000+08:00","text":"什麼台灣鋼聯？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:05.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:07.352000+08:00","text":"你有法律強制規定事業廢棄物一定要到台灣鋼聯裡面燒結熔融嗎？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:07.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:07.652000+08:00","text":"有規定嗎？沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:17.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:18.234000+08:00","text":"法律有規定嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴署長瑩瑩","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:18.234000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:19.234000+08:00","text":"報告委員，那是個案再利用，我講的是其中一個個案再利用的例子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:18.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:19.936000+08:00","text":"你講的是如果發現檢出有害物質的話才要這樣子，沒有的話是沒有耶！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:20.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:22.299000+08:00","text":"人家一般垃圾燒出來，就一定要逐批驗，然後都一定要燒熔、安定化、無害化耶！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:22.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:22.580000+08:00","text":"你們沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:39.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:40:43.353000+08:00","text":"所以部長我現在要問你，這個問題你有聽懂嗎？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:40:43.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:02.820000+08:00","text":"我現在不是在說新竹而已，我在跟你講飛灰管制上，從它焚化爐廠別的定義，你決定了它的管制強度不一樣，變成雙軌；而且是高風險的管制得鬆，相對低風險的管制得嚴。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:02.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:02.820000+08:00","text":"這樣可以嗎？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:05.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:21.695000+08:00","text":"在臺灣現行制度下，焚化飛灰的管制強度是取決於焚化爐的定義，是一般垃圾焚化爐，還是事業廢棄物焚化爐；而不是取決於飛灰本身的化學特性、風險危害。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:21.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:21.855000+08:00","text":"沒有耶！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:22.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:22.436000+08:00","text":"部長，請你也說個幾句。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:26.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:32.565000+08:00","text":"委員，我回去會再來了解，然後如何在法規上面精進或調整。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:33.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:35.416000+08:00","text":"這個刻不容緩！是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:35.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:41:48.223000+08:00","text":"不論是哪一種焚化廠，只要是飛灰，它的很多風險和有害的特性會是很像的，特別是事業廢棄物的風險更高。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:41:48.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:04.712000+08:00","text":"它還有高濃度的重金屬，包括鉛、鎘、鉻、汞、戴奧辛、呋喃或其他有毒的物質，這些有毒毒害的特性不會因為它的焚化爐叫做什麼名字就改變。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:05.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:15.538000+08:00","text":"但現行制度卻允許說焚化廠的名字不一樣，管理的就不一樣；因為產源定性不同，就適用截然不同的管制標準，這是不應該的。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:16.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:21.081000+08:00","text":"而且我一直在講，TCLP去判定制度，讓飛灰有機會逃脫有害的認定。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:23.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:26.463000+08:00","text":"你們就是用TCLP半年抽驗一次啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:27.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:34.586000+08:00","text":"你們的有害事業廢棄物認定標準講，焚化的飛灰沒有直接列入附表的「製程有害事業廢棄物」哦！","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:35.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:35.947000+08:00","text":"沒有哦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:37.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:50.073000+08:00","text":"戴奧辛是最大的風險，可是你們除了沒有檢測戴奧辛以外，你用TCLP的溶出去判定是不是有害，而且判定有沒有戴奧辛，這就是作假。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:50.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:42:58.801000+08:00","text":"用TCLP去判定有沒有戴奧辛，這是不可能的，絕對無法溶出的。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:42:59.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:06.390000+08:00","text":"所以你們的數據用這個來包庇它，變成不是有害的，這個就是作假跟包庇。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:07.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:35.736000+08:00","text":"所以只要某次數據檢測未超過TCLP的溶出標準，全臺灣的事業廢棄物用一個檢查不出有毒物質的TCLP的檢測方法，就歸類為一般事業廢棄物，這就是問題，我已經講很多年了。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:36.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:36.217000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:36.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:41.058000+08:00","text":"委員，我是第一次聽你講，我會回去了解，必要的時候就來檢討。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:42.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:43.579000+08:00","text":"公有焚化爐有改啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:44.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:46.760000+08:00","text":"可是你們遇到事業廢棄物的焚化爐，這一些民間財團自己經營的焚化爐就不敢改。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:52.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:43:59.167000+08:00","text":"我要再講，新竹的案例暴露的不是只有飛灰的問題，而且還有中央管理體系的缺陷。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:43:59.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:44:11.016000+08:00","text":"一座一天處理250噸生活垃圾的大型設施，資料卻不在環管署的SWIMS系統，因為它是事業廢棄物焚化爐嘛！","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:44:11.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:44:17.161000+08:00","text":"等於是中央對全臺灣一般廢棄物處理量能的掌握出現缺口。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:44:18.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:44:25.081000+08:00","text":"同時在這裡，環管署跟循環署之間權責劃分產生灰色地帶。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:44:25.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:44:29.284000+08:00","text":"環管署在新竹這個個案上發現問題，卻被擋在門外。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:44:30.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:44:42.072000+08:00","text":"他們告知循環署，循環署無動於衷，延遲行動，然後地方政府還可以依廠別的定性，拒絕中央進廠查核。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:44:43.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:44:44.653000+08:00","text":"這一個管理制度面的問題、權責釐清的問題，絕對不會只有這一個廠。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:44:44.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:44:47.134000+08:00","text":"任何一座同時處理生活垃圾跟事業廢棄物，但是被定義為事業廢棄物焚化廠的設施，都出現同樣的監督缺口。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:04.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:22.774000+08:00","text":"此外，還有部分焚化爐，像桃園的欣榮焚化廠本來是以BOO的模式營運垃圾焚化廠，合約屆期後，它變成民有民營的廢棄物處理廠，它的管制標準也降階。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:25.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:26.176000+08:00","text":"部長，這個問題很嚴重。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:26.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:31.239000+08:00","text":"這是你們內部……連管理的體系都出問題，制度面都出問題，這要怎麼解決？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:35.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:36.596000+08:00","text":"新竹的部分我們已經看到這個問題了。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:37.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:41.117000+08:00","text":"從新竹你看到，環管署要進去，他不能進去，不給他進去。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:41.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:43.538000+08:00","text":"找你們環管署，環管署說：「我不要管。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:44.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:45.379000+08:00","text":"」那現在要怎麼辦？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:45.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:47.200000+08:00","text":"不會，他們已經有在管了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:47.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:48.440000+08:00","text":"我講的就是事實啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:49.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:49.761000+08:00","text":"當然有在管啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:50.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:51.621000+08:00","text":"慢了幾拍啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:51.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:52.662000+08:00","text":"慢了很多拍啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:53.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:54.042000+08:00","text":"地方政府不讓你們進去，這個問題怎麼解決？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:58.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:45:59.364000+08:00","text":"這個是整個大制度……對啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:45:59.364000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:02.665000+08:00","text":"你都說大制度了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:02.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:06.707000+08:00","text":"新竹這個案子本身就有他的問題存在，所以我們目前該有的……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:06.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:08.768000+08:00","text":"制度面有沒有問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:08.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:09.789000+08:00","text":"有問題。好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:09.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:10.449000+08:00","text":"要不要改？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:11.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:16.492000+08:00","text":"目前第一個，是他有沒有違法的問題，這個有單位正在偵辦當中，我不方便在這邊說……","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:16.492000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:17.492000+08:00","text":"這我知道。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:16.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:21.175000+08:00","text":"就不要講這個個案，「弊案」我也不講啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:21.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:25.152000+08:00","text":"我在講制度，就是你有責任的制度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:25.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:27.913000+08:00","text":"制度的部分，我會再來檢討改進，謝謝委員。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:27.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:29.113000+08:00","text":"好，我現在再告訴你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:30.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:33.294000+08:00","text":"國際上對焚化飛灰的基準判斷相當一致。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:34.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:47.441000+08:00","text":"飛灰含有很多的重金屬、戴奧辛等持久性的有機污染物，國際都把它優先視為危險或特別管理的廢棄物，絕對不是像臺灣一樣把它列為是一般廢棄物。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:48.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:46:56.729000+08:00","text":"日本的學界在整理廢棄物處理及清掃法的修法歷程時，明確指出一般廢棄物焚化飛灰自1991年起就納入……1991年耶！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:46:56.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:47:10.962000+08:00","text":"三十幾年前就納入特別管理廢棄物的範圍，因為它的風險特別高；而不會說它是燒一般垃圾的飛灰和燒事業廢棄物的飛灰，然後跟臺灣一樣反過來，風險高的寬鬆，絕對不可能！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:47:10.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:47:42.308000+08:00","text":"歐盟在廢棄物的目錄中，將含危險物質的焚化飛灰編為代碼「19 01 03*」，標示為危險廢棄物，而且要求要依廢棄物框架指令所列的危害特性，就是HP1到HP15判定是不是屬於危險廢棄物，凸顯了它的高風險本質。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:47:42.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:07.302000+08:00","text":"而日本在處理的技術上，特別管理廢棄物的飛灰，都要熔融、要燒結，要讓它無害化、水泥固化、化學穩定化，使重金屬和戴奧辛固定在穩定的相中，通過最終的處分廠，受納的標準才可以掩埋或有限度地利用。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:08.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:19.692000+08:00","text":"在歐盟的部分，焚化的飛灰管理不僅是否為危險廢棄物的分類，它含危險物質的飛灰被編列為「19 01 03*」，視為危險廢棄物。","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:20.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:29.400000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講了，還需要符合廢棄物框架指令附錄三所界定的多重危害特性：毒性、腐蝕性、生態毒性等。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:30.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:48:47.566000+08:00","text":"歐盟在埋填場的指令進一步規範，危險廢棄物掩埋場對飛灰的受納標準還必須考慮重金屬溶出、溶解性鹽類、有機碳等指標，而不是單一的TCLP的數據就判定依據。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:48:47.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:00.514000+08:00","text":"所以歐盟是一個完整的管理鏈，從危險分類，經過預處理、穩定化，到最終掩埋場受納標準，都有很明確的技術門檻跟監測方法。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:01.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:17.306000+08:00","text":"絕對不可能像臺灣用少次的TCLP檢驗，就把大量的飛灰物質視為一般廢棄物，然後去做CLSM回填管溝再利用，然後還有亂丟的！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:20.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:31.870000+08:00","text":"現行有害事業廢棄物認定標準高度地用TCLP單一溶出實驗，這種是環境風險實驗，不是有毒有害物質檢查實驗！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:33.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:46.034000+08:00","text":"你們這樣子去包庇掩護有毒的戴奧辛，在這種狀況裡面當然大家都逃過有害廢棄物分類的管制，所以臺灣是這樣子的。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:47.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:49:53.221000+08:00","text":"從國際NGO的角度來看，焚化飛灰的風險都被認為是長期低估的。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:49:54.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:18.513000+08:00","text":"國際持久性的有機污染物消除網絡IPEN，在一個After Incineration：The Toxic Ash Problem的報告裡面，它系統性地分析多國焚化飛灰樣本後，指出飛灰往往承載了焚化體系當中多數的戴奧辛負荷，而我們都知道戴奧辛會怎樣？","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:20.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:20.789000+08:00","text":"有什麼人體風險？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:23.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:25.431000+08:00","text":"部長，戴奧辛的人體風險是什麼？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:25.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:26.611000+08:00","text":"是很毒的世紀之毒啊！","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:27.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:28.952000+08:00","text":"會致癌！致癌！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:30.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:34.314000+08:00","text":"它的毒性在現行排放與風險評估框架下常被低估啊！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:35.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:50.300000+08:00","text":"所以IPEN主張各國在實踐巴塞爾公約和持久性有機污染物管理時應該針對飛灰採取更嚴格的限值和危險廢棄物的認定標準，避免飛灰藉由再利用的名義進入循環體系。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:50.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:51.561000+08:00","text":"而臺灣呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:50:53.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:50:59.367000+08:00","text":"除了我剛剛講的，我再講一個數據，這是監察院的數據。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:00.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:05.491000+08:00","text":"對於一般垃圾，公有焚化爐有監測，我就講了，對每一批都要監測戴奧辛。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:06.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:15.058000+08:00","text":"事實上，其公有焚化廠飛灰穩定化戴奧辛及重金屬檢測結果……這是監察院報告喔！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:16.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:49.646000+08:00","text":"112年到113年期間檢測的最大值中，戴奧辛毒性當量濃度在很多廠，像是樹林、八里、后里、烏日、臺中文山、新店、北投，其實濃度都非常接近臨界值──管理的臨界值：0.9、0.8、0.7、0.96，都接近臨界值。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:49.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:58.410000+08:00","text":"就連在一般生活垃圾的飛灰中，戴奧辛都接近臨界值，你看那些事業廢棄物會多嚴重？","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:51:59.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:51:59.671000+08:00","text":"會更嚴重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:00.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:02.532000+08:00","text":"現在有幾座被定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐的焚化設施？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:02.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:03.173000+08:00","text":"部長，你知道嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:07.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:10.009000+08:00","text":"全臺灣有幾座焚化設施是定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:10.009000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:11.009000+08:00","text":"事業廢棄物……大型……","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:10.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:11.030000+08:00","text":"大型與小型一共有幾座？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:11.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:14.613000+08:00","text":"你不知道，這些署長不知道，業務單位也不知道！","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:23.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:30.988000+08:00","text":"委員，針對這部分，我們回去再做完整的通盤檢討，法令如果需要修的話，我們絕對責無旁貸，會來處理。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:31.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:32.429000+08:00","text":"好，要修的很多。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:32.429000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:33.429000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:33.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:37.531000+08:00","text":"各事業廢棄物焚化爐產生的飛灰用什麼代碼申報？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:37.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:43.534000+08:00","text":"在各廠事業廢棄物焚化爐飛灰中TCLP的檢測還有戴奧辛的歷次檢測數據中，頻率、次數、數據怎麼樣？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:48.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:49.104000+08:00","text":"不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:51.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:51.705000+08:00","text":"顯然不知道嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:52.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:52:54.307000+08:00","text":"提供資料來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:52:54.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:07.327000+08:00","text":"所以中央對事業廢棄物焚化廠飛灰的流向不在乎，也缺乏基本的掌握，所以你們根本不知道有沒有被不當處理，包括有沒有亂丟，統統都不知道。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:08.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:12.430000+08:00","text":"公有的只有10%再利用，其他跑去哪裡？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:12.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:15.372000+08:00","text":"民間的統統都跑去哪裡？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:15.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:15.632000+08:00","text":"不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:16.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:38.148000+08:00","text":"然後，我剛剛講的桃園欣榮焚化廠本來是用BOO或BOT營運的焚化廠，合約屆期後變成民有民營的廢棄物處理廠，其飛灰管制就從本來的燃燒一般垃圾降階為事業廢棄物焚化廠，管制就鬆綁了、管理就降階了，你要怎麼補這個漏洞？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:47.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:47.362000+08:00","text":"這也是問題欸！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:49.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:53:57.945000+08:00","text":"本來是BOT在燒一般垃圾，時間到了變成民營，要燒事業廢棄物，結果飛灰管理就降階了。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:53:58.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:10.048000+08:00","text":"以前BOT、由公部門委託經營的時候，飛灰管制是每批都要驗的，要無害化、安定化、穩定化、熔融，現在都沒有欸！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:10.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:10.308000+08:00","text":"現在降階後，都不知道了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:10.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:19.447000+08:00","text":"你修訂的法規這麼多，問題也這麼多。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:22.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:24.612000+08:00","text":"整個修法大概要多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:26.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:28.034000+08:00","text":"整體上，如果照剛剛講的，問題很多喔！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:28.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:34.780000+08:00","text":"委員，我先回去了解一下整個狀況後排定計畫，再向委員討教。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:36.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:37.042000+08:00","text":"那要多久？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:37.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:38.723000+08:00","text":"我們不想拖啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:39.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:42.006000+08:00","text":"更不要講事實上飛灰都亂丟啦！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:45.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:55.645000+08:00","text":"風險最大的是做成CLSM的，未來石油管、自來水管、天然氣管、化學管，大家自求多福啦！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:56.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:56.546000+08:00","text":"什麼時候、會不會腐蝕？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:56.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:57.666000+08:00","text":"「腐蝕要很久，二十年、三十年啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:57.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:58.806000+08:00","text":"」三十年後，等到哪一天氣爆也不足為奇了啦！漏水？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:58.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:54:59.146000+08:00","text":"漏水就漏水啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:59.146000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:00.146000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員給我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:54:59.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:21.323000+08:00","text":"鑄鐵管漏水，所以你們是不是也該跨部門、跨單位去討論，其實他們的鑄鐵管都要包覆，以防鏽、防蝕，對不對？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:24.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:26.790000+08:00","text":"部長，茲事體大，不要一天到晚講綠能啦！","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:27.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:29.652000+08:00","text":"不要一天到晚講暖化！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:31.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:35.796000+08:00","text":"需要正本清源、環境部最該管的就是這些垃圾、事業廢棄物啦！","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:37.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:47.884000+08:00","text":"最攸關人民健康風險、環境、土地有沒有污染的就是事業廢棄物的管理政策，卻從以前就輕放到現在。謝謝。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:48.384000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:50.955429+08:00","text":"謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T11:55:51.255429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T11:55:54.398286+08:00","text":"接下來請涂權吉委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}