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我們請彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":12.242,"end":37.862,"text":"侯委好部長好部長兩個議題第一土方之亂從今年的一月開始到現在真的到現在大家還是覺得是說還是有沒有辦法去化的一個問題那尤其是土方處理費我們聽說是已經飆漲了五六倍之多那現在的問題點在於是你盤點了應該內政部負責還是應該環境部負責但你盤點了一些去化的地點到最後"},{"start":38.903,"end":61.843,"text":"找不到合格的土方回收場那就變成是說找相關的填海造陸的部分所以本席的台北港也被點名了那現在新北市府這邊說有規劃要做一個戰製場但地方的鄉親反彈會以及說懷疑說到底戰製場還是永久場未來會不會放在那邊戰製然後就變永久之後所有土方全部都來這邊來做一個去化"},{"start":62.563,"end":86.839,"text":"部長是不是可以說明一下因為其實土方做不行啦不然的話每天我們都一直看到氣質北部往中南部到中南部往南部到所以這個是一直國人的痛啦幾十年來沒有解決問題所以我們很認真的要去解決我們看到很多非法的土方氣質不管是高雄不管是台南地方政府當然要去追查啊不要說有包庇啊不要上下其手但是這一個部分我現在"},{"start":87.439,"end":109.998,"text":"非法的部分我們一定強烈要求要取締這沒有問題沒有人要掩護非法但現在是你們倉促上路的政策結果到最後變成是我們地方要來接收這些原本不在我們的土方好那來即便是來那你說戰制我有查到一個資料說你說一年內可以戰制完畢等於是說戰制場工程生退"},{"start":110.919,"end":131.002,"text":"我想請教因為我們到地方的時候問他沒有辦法有一個明確的保證是說戰事只有一年好包圍因為這個最主要是這個台北港喔他如果要填土方的話那個需要環評還有一些程序那個還有一點時間所以那個時間差裡面他先開了一塊可以做戰事場跟台北跟新北來做一個使用所以目前這是一個戰事而已"},{"start":132.423,"end":159.394,"text":"兩個部分台北港現在聽說有要再跟環境部申請環評還要再增加填海的量從原本的好像400萬噸要變成500萬噸這是台北港他們要去送可是另外一個部分是我們也看到那就變成是說量會集中會更大那我們要看到的另外一個部分是那戰制場到底要戰制多久戰制通常就是等那個環評過了他可以開始填埋的時候再行處理"},{"start":160.094,"end":171.799,"text":"所以如果說現在我那我這樣子我直接比較明確的講因為現在地方政府沒有辦法跟我們承諾那如果說我們這個戰制下去了那未來一年內有沒有辦法他就可以攻城深退"},{"start":174.35,"end":189.927,"text":"跟委員這邊報告那我想土方目前因為現在突然之間的量變大那我們現在已經努力他不是量變大是突然之間你們政策改了然後又沒有配套措施所以說土方沒地方去沒有因為說台灣突然間量"},{"start":190.808,"end":209.069,"text":"增出來量都是那麼多只是過去大家不願意處理那沒關係你要處理可是你也要想出配套措施而不是突然間1月1號開始執行然後就變成是大家要幫忙擦屁股那個不能這樣說我們廢棄物土方都有管制土方是沒有管制所以我們土方有管制合理"},{"start":210.29,"end":230.396,"text":"那就過去好不管是藍營有執政過綠營也執政過但綠營現在也執政10年了你突然間2026年1月1號是說你們換了一個新制度然後讓他變成是土方大家全部都要面對這個問題台灣是我們大家共同的土地但我現在要問的是原本他要"},{"start":230.936,"end":249.051,"text":"在其他地方處理合格的土地等等的那現在很大部分雙北至少第一階段雙北的公共工程的土方就要來台北港嘛那現在台北港外有一個戰制場一直講說戰制那我們要問的是戰制要戰制多久"},{"start":250.403,"end":269.011,"text":"跟委員這邊報告因為我們現在主要是穩定它的數量因為台北港進港的數量每天是有限量的一個有一個限量有一個上限那我們現在先而且現在台北港它的收土量也有增加的一個"},{"start":270.311,"end":290.112,"text":"額度進去了 那所以說慢慢的我們現在戰事場只是先讓土方突然就是目前正在開發的土方有一個先戰事的地方讓工程不要終止造成公共危害的情形所以戰事場只是一個臨時的一個功能而已 對吧"},{"start":291.072,"end":316.899,"text":"你講的都是我的問題我現在就說 臨時的公路我們都理解但是你那些土方原本不在那個地方那你現在在巴黎地區找了一塊空地而且那一塊空地以往還是算所謂的濕地喔但你們現在把它搞出來之後然後就現在要來做這個站制那站制還要在那邊破碎等於是有比較大塊的那些混凝土你要在那邊用怪手把它破碎所以也會造成飛塵跟噪音嘛"},{"start":317.939,"end":342.855,"text":"完了之後再送進台北港去做填土但我們現在要問的是好 臨時那為什麼不能說在港區裡面為什麼要在外面距離民宅比較近這是一點那選地本來就有問題那另外一點本期更要問的是那你臨時你可以多久因為部長之前有講過說有信心一年之內所有戰事場就可以退場嘛那我們現在要問是說這個承諾還算不算"},{"start":344.045,"end":353.97,"text":"還是你下去之後永久變成是巴黎民眾以後就要跟這個戰事場共存你就戰事就不叫戰事你就變成是永久土方處理廠"},{"start":355.927,"end":383.451,"text":"那只是名字好聽而已那這樣我們民眾怎麼有辦法接受目前雙北的部分就是台北港的部分目前是預計一年一年那一年到了好因為現在我知道四月雙北地區公共工程也有壓力所以說他們也希望能夠競速那如果假設這樣的話明年四月可以退場那我們要問的是說明年四月退場的機制在哪邊是以後明年四月就不用再破碎了可以直接就進台北港直接到"},{"start":384.934,"end":403.025,"text":"現在就是台北港的量如果足夠進去的話那當然這邊的戰資場的數量就可以慢慢的去化掉了那目前我們預估是一年因為我們現在都已經在尋求更多的土資場讓他可以收集更多的量好來那部長謝謝部長"},{"start":405.146,"end":427.245,"text":"這算是你的承諾嗎明年的這時候不用我再回來的時候還看到那個地方還在營運這個是國土署在處理的但是我們會密切注意這個東西因為他們現在是卡在環評環評大概要一段時間然後才能夠一年後才把那開出來誰卡在環評呃他的台北港要台北港卡在環評台北港的到因為本時有聽到消息是台北港現在也要送環評申請從400萬變500萬那假設"},{"start":430.908,"end":450.951,"text":"一樣是在我們環評委員的這個專業評估判斷下認為可行那這個土方的戰志場就可以退場 是 是不是好 所以本席現在先確認因為要讓我們地方知道是說這個戰志不是永久不要到時候變成是你設了之後 欸乞丐感妙工到之後變成是民眾要跟你這個忍受啊"},{"start":452.298,"end":472.464,"text":"本席一年的時間本席一定會追這個進度而且這個也算是我們中央部會的承諾請一定要繼續做到 包委員這個也要地方單位要很努力來支持所以新北市也有一個平台所以這個是中央跟地方協力在做的台北新北當然都支持所以說現在新北已經把 支持也要來做喔新北已經把地都貢獻出來還不算支持嗎"},{"start":473.504,"end":493.004,"text":"那個地 照理講那個地算是不管是中央也好 地方也好我們現在地方是承受台灣 北台灣的這個戰志嘛那我們現在要的是說你們的政策不能倉促上路之後到最後我們找一塊地然後要幫你變戰志的地方然後結果遙遙無期到時候這個地方就變成是永久的戰志區"},{"start":494.786,"end":509.776,"text":"這個是本席一定要提醒的來 那第二個部分因為本席剛剛講兩個問題 不好意思因為剛剛這個回答比較久一點我再點一下一個時間是 剛剛林淑芬委員講那麼久你這樣子 主席你真的是很大小眼"},{"start":511.377,"end":531.975,"text":"本委跟外委那都一樣我們都是委員同仁我們的問題那麼的重要如果說你連多一分鐘兩分鐘當然可以馬上沒有問題部長現在有反應是說民眾都買不到14公升的環保袋那我覺得這可能跟經濟部有相關"},{"start":532.836,"end":558.277,"text":"那我現在想要確認一下因為經濟部他現在要解決這問題明明一開始跟我們講說中東戰火或是說這個相關原物料都說沒有缺乏但現在經濟部想要解決問題反而是說要增量5000噸的平價塑膠袋那是不是又跟我們的這個減速訴求又有相抵觸那到底現在我們的塑膠袋有沒有缺有沒有人囤積有沒有這個相關供貨的問題對"},{"start":561.958,"end":576.555,"text":"目前這個雙北市的這個市府的這個付費的垃圾袋是沒有問題的但民眾有反應有買不到那個其實是在整個供應鏈裡面對好那另外一部分經濟部現在說要宣布增產5000噸的平價塑膠袋"},{"start":579.67,"end":593.743,"text":"那我們到底想問的是你一方面跟我們講說原料沒有問題一方面跟我們講供貨沒有問題但是你現在又說我要宣布要增加五千噸的平價塑膠袋那不就跟我們減數的政策又背道而馳沒有沒有那到底你們環境部跟經濟部兩個是怎麼樣來溝通"},{"start":595.905,"end":609.59,"text":"第一個是民眾的日常生活當中最後一里路這個攤販夜市等等他需要一種所提的塑膠袋那的確有些可能在供貨有預期心理之下他會搶購所以造成沒有是他們是安定人心那對我們來說當然是推動減塑啊"},{"start":611.502,"end":629.793,"text":"所以大力在推動啊所以我現在要問的是說像這個五千噸的塑膠袋它會是最後一波嗎還是說這未來變成是常態還是你要無限量五萬噸五千噸有多少呢12.5億個因為已經超過五分鐘了12.5億個跟委員說明因為過去除了有國內生產所以現在是為了要後面委員要趕行程"},{"start":636.917,"end":662.895,"text":"所以現在是委員敢形成我當然考慮啊所以說你如果說召委你要召委如果說你要這樣子控管的話那應該就是從源頭管理每一位委員都有一定的標準嘛我當然互相但是我現在是你看現在官員要講然後就被人打斷那其實官員這一些時間早就官員就可以講完咧不是嗎來一分鐘一句話簡單說明一下你們現在到底是跟委員報告現在"},{"start":664.575,"end":679.651,"text":"現在是那個短期在應急而已啦不是一個常態性的這跟委員說一個所以會不會還有再增加的一個政策目前的是這個狀況啦當然還要看國際局勢又看國際局勢又不是自由掌握"},{"start":681.172,"end":695.829,"text":"本席再次強調如果說要的話政府是一體的應該政策要一致性而不是每一次又跟我們講這一套但是做得又一套讓民眾無所適從我想這才是本席今天才提出的問題不會無所適從這是兩個不一樣政策的問題"},{"start":698.132,"end":723.235,"text":"本席想要結束這個質詢是因為本席還對你的專業有尊重但如果說你每一次都要用這種強化的方式或是說你每次都要因為本席現在就看到民眾的反應是最直接的嘛過去一個月就是有發生很多的塑膠袋之亂過去一個月就是有很多民眾都說買不到塑膠袋過去的一個月就是看到經濟部一方面又講是說沒有缺單一方面又說要增量"},{"start":724.298,"end":729.902,"text":"那我們到底想問的是說今天趙偉排那麼專業的一個報告就是要讓大家釐清這個狀況啊每次都是這樣在硬拗哎民進黨政府現在是硬拗誠信了然後連大白話都不能講就對了對因為他現在他好謝謝趙偉好謝謝洪文凱委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:08:22.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:08:25.442000+08:00","text":"感謝主席，我請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:08:25.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:08:26.164000+08:00","text":"有請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:08:29.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:08:29.542000+08:00","text":"洪委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:08:29.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:08:30.043000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:08:30.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:08:46.155000+08:00","text":"部長，我有兩個議題，第一，土方之亂從今年一月開始到現在，大家真的還是覺得有無法去化的問題，尤其是土方處理費，我聽說已經飆漲了五、六倍之多啊！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:08:47.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:08:52.581000+08:00","text":"現在的問題點在於盤點應該由內政部負責還是由環境部負責？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:08:53.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:09:04.110000+08:00","text":"若盤點了一些去化地點，到最後卻找不到合格的土方回收場，那就變成要找相關填海造陸的場域，所以本席所在的臺北港也被點名了。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:09:05.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:09:18.823000+08:00","text":"現在新北市政府說已規劃做暫置場，但地方鄉親反彈，也懷疑到底是暫置場還是永久場，未來會不會從放在那邊暫置變成永久，之後所有土方全部都送到那邊去化？","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:09:19.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:09:20.704000+08:00","text":"部長是不是可以說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:09:20.704000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:09:21.945000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:09:21.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:09:24.566000+08:00","text":"其實土方不做不行啦！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:09:24.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:09:34.032000+08:00","text":"不然我們每天都一直看到土方棄置，北部往中南部倒、中南部往南部倒，這一直是國人的痛、幾十年來沒有解決的問題，所以我們很認真地要解決。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:09:34.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:09:39.376000+08:00","text":"我們看到很多非法土方棄置場，不管是高雄、不管是臺南，地方政府當然要追查啊！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:09:39.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:09:41.537000+08:00","text":"不要包庇、不要上下其手。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:09:44.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:10:06.978000+08:00","text":"對於非法者，我們一定強烈要求取締，這沒有問題，畢竟沒有人要掩護非法，但現在是你們的政策倉促上路，結果到最後，變成是我們地方要來接收這一些原本不在我們的土方，好，即便是來，那你說暫置，我也有查到一個資料，說你說一年內可以暫置完畢，等於是說暫置場功成身退。是。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:10:07.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:10:13.365000+08:00","text":"那我想請教，因為我們到地方的時候問，地方沒有辦法有一個明確的保證說暫置只有一年。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:10:13.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:10:27.982000+08:00","text":"好，報告委員，因為這個最主要是臺北港如果要填土方的話，需要環評還有一些程序，那個還要一點時間，所以在時間差裡面，要先開立一塊可以做暫置場，讓臺北跟新北來使用，所以目前只是暫置而已。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:10:27.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:10:29.423000+08:00","text":"這個我理解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:10:29.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:10:42.748000+08:00","text":"兩個部分，現在聽說臺北港有要再跟環境部申請環評，就是說還要再增加填海的量，從原本的400萬噸要變成500萬噸，這是臺北港的部分，他們要去送申請。","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:10:43.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:10:51.552000+08:00","text":"可是另外一個部分是，我們也看到，那就變成量會集中、會更大，那我們又看到另外一個部分是，暫置場到底要暫置多久？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:10:52.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:10:56.374000+08:00","text":"通常就是等環評過了，可以開始填埋的時候再行處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:10:59.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:11:08.779000+08:00","text":"這樣子的話，我直接比較明確的講，因為現在地方政府沒有辦法跟我們承諾，如果我們暫置下去了，未來一年內有沒有辦法功成身退？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"曾總工程司正宗","start":"2026-04-08T12:11:11.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:11:18.798000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，目前因為土方突然之間量變大，我們現在已經努力地……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:11:18.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:11:24.545000+08:00","text":"不是量變大，是突然之間你們政策改了，然後又沒有配套措施，所以土方沒地方去。是。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:11:25.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:11:39.782000+08:00","text":"沒有因為突然間量增出來，量都是那麼多，只是過去大家不願意處理，那沒關係，你要處理，可是你也要想出配套措施，而不是突然間1月1日開始執行，然後就變成大家要幫忙擦屁股。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:11:40.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:11:46.049000+08:00","text":"沒有，沒有，沒有，委員，不能這樣說，我們廢棄物都有管制，土方沒有管制，所以我們會要求管制合理。是。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:11:48.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:12:01.754000+08:00","text":"好，藍營有執政過，綠營也執政過，但是綠營現在也執政10年了，你們突然間在2026年1月1日說你們換了一個新的制度，然後讓它變成土方，大家全部都要面對這個問題。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:12:01.754000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:12:02.754000+08:00","text":"沒有，事實上，土方的去化可以更明確。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:12:01.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:12:17.564000+08:00","text":"臺灣是大家共同的土地，但我現在要問的是，原本要在其他地方處理，如合格的土資場等等，現在很大部分，至少第一階段，雙北公共工程的土方就要來臺北港嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:12:19.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:12:26.031000+08:00","text":"現在臺北港外有一個暫置場，一直講說是暫置，那我們要問的是，要暫置多久？","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"曾總工程司正宗","start":"2026-04-08T12:12:27.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:13:07.092000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們現在主要是穩定它的數量，因為臺北港進港的數量每天有一個限量的上限，而且現在臺北港的收土量也有增加額度進去了，所以慢慢地現在暫置場只是先讓目前正在開發的土方有一個先暫置的地方，以免工程中止造成公共危害的情形，所以暫置場只是個臨時的功能而已。對。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:13:08.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:13:42.584000+08:00","text":"你講的都是我問的問題，臨時功能我們都理解，但是那些土方原本不在那個地方，你現在在八里地區找了一塊空地，而且那一塊空地以往還是所謂的溼地，但你們把它搞出來之後，結果現在要來做暫置，暫置還要在那邊破碎，比較大塊的混凝土要在那邊用怪手把它破碎，所以也會造成灰塵跟噪音，破碎完了之後再送進臺北港填土，我們現在要問的是，好，你說是臨時，為什麼不能設在港區裡面？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:13:43.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:13:46.106000+08:00","text":"為什麼要在外面，距離民宅比較近？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:13:46.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:13:49.068000+08:00","text":"這是一點，選地本來就有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:13:49.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:13:52.710000+08:00","text":"另外一點本席更要問的是，你說的臨時可以多久？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:13:52.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:13:59.835000+08:00","text":"因為部長之前有講過，有信心在一年之內所有暫置場就可以退場嘛，我們現在要問的是，這個承諾還算不算？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:14:01.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:14:06.768000+08:00","text":"還是之後臨時就變成永久，八里民眾以後就要跟這個暫置場共舞共存？","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:14:08.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:14:16.110000+08:00","text":"這樣一來，你說的暫置就不叫暫置，就變成永久土方處理場，只是名字好聽而已，這樣我們民眾怎麼有辦法接受？","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"曾總工程司正宗","start":"2026-04-08T12:14:17.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:14:21.835000+08:00","text":"雙北就是臺北港的部分，目前是預計一年。一年？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾總工程司正宗","start":"2026-04-08T12:14:21.835000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:14:22.835000+08:00","text":"對，目前預計一年。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:14:22.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:14:36.848000+08:00","text":"那一年到了，好，因為現在我知道4月雙北地區公共工程也有壓力，所以說他們也希望能夠儘速，假設這樣的話，明年4月可以退場，我們要問的是說，明年4月退場的機制在哪邊？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:14:36.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:14:40.271000+08:00","text":"是明年4月以後就不用再破碎了，可以直接進臺北港直接倒？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"曾總工程司正宗","start":"2026-04-08T12:14:41.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:14:58.944000+08:00","text":"現在就是臺北港的量如果足夠進去的話，當然這邊暫置場的數量就可以慢慢地去化掉了，目前我們預估是一年，因為我們現在都已經在尋求更多的土資場，可以收集更多的量。好。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:14:59.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:15:00.005000+08:00","text":"來，部長，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:15:00.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:15:03.507000+08:00","text":"部長，這算是你的承諾嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:15:03.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:15:06.870000+08:00","text":"明年這個時候我再回來的時候，不用看到那個地方還在營運。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:15:06.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:15:15.898000+08:00","text":"這個是國土署在處理的，但是我們會密切注意這個東西，因為他們現在是卡在環評，環評大概要一段時間，然後一年後才能夠把那個開出來。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:15:15.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:15:17.219000+08:00","text":"誰卡在環評？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:15:17.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:15:17.980000+08:00","text":"臺北港的土方要環評……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:15:18.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:15:19.701000+08:00","text":"臺北港卡在環評？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:15:20.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:15:24.185000+08:00","text":"因為本席有聽到消息，說臺北港現在也要送環評申請，從400萬噸變500萬噸。是。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:15:24.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:15:36.298000+08:00","text":"假設一樣是在環評委員的專業評估判斷下認為可行，這個土方的暫置場就可以退場，是不是？是。好。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:15:36.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:15:47.750000+08:00","text":"所以本席現在先確認，因為要讓我們地方知道這個暫置不是永久，不要設了之後到最後變成「乞丐趕廟公」，到最後變成民眾要跟著忍受。","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:15:50.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:15:55.960000+08:00","text":"一年的時間，本席一定會追這個進度，而且這個也算是我們中央部會的承諾，請一定要做到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:15:56.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:02.842000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個也要地方單位努力來支持，新北市也有一個平台，所以這個是中央跟地方一起協力在做的。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:02.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:05.383000+08:00","text":"臺北、新北當然都支持啊，所以現在新北已經……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:05.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:06.063000+08:00","text":"新北也要來做。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:06.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:09.464000+08:00","text":"新北已經把地都貢獻出來，還不算支持嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:11.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:33.046000+08:00","text":"照理講，不管是中央也好，地方也好，現在地方是承受北臺灣的土方暫置嘛，我們現在要的是，你們的政策不能倉促上路之後，到最後我們找一塊地要幫你變暫置的地方，結果遙遙無期，到最後這個地方就變成永久的暫置區，這個是本席一定要提醒的。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:34.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:41.913000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，本席剛剛講的兩個問題，不好意思，因為剛剛回答得比較久一點，我再一點時間……","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:41.913000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:42.913000+08:00","text":"不是，因為已經超過3分鐘。是。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:42.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:46.756000+08:00","text":"剛剛林淑芬委員講那麼久，你這樣子，主席，你真的是很大小眼耶！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:46.756000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:48.377000+08:00","text":"不是，因為他是本委員會的委員，所以我們對本委員會的委員比較……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:48.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:51.240000+08:00","text":"不是，本委跟外委都一樣，我們都是委員同仁。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:51.240000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:52.240000+08:00","text":"因為後面的委員還在等。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:52.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:56.584000+08:00","text":"我們的問題那麼重要，如果說你連多一分鐘、兩分鐘都……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:56.584000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:16:58.746000+08:00","text":"那儘速詢答，儘速，馬上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:16:58.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:17:01.329000+08:00","text":"馬上，沒有問題。1分鐘。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:17:01.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:17:30.513000+08:00","text":"來，部長，現在有人反映民眾都買不到14公升的環保袋，我覺得這可能跟經濟部也有相關，我現在想要確認一下，因為經濟部現在要解決這個問題，明明一開始他們講中東戰火影響不大，或是說相關原物料沒有缺乏，但是現在經濟部想要解決問題，反而說要增量5,000噸的平價塑膠袋，是不是又跟我們減塑的訴求相牴觸？","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:17:30.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:17:32.775000+08:00","text":"到底現在我們的塑膠袋有沒有缺？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:17:33.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:17:33.976000+08:00","text":"有沒有人囤積？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:17:33.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:17:35.277000+08:00","text":"有沒有相關供貨的問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:17:38.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:17:43.984000+08:00","text":"目前雙北市市府的付費垃圾袋是沒有問題的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:17:44.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:17:46.487000+08:00","text":"但民眾有反映有人買不到，這是一個部分。","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:17:46.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:17:49.510000+08:00","text":"那個其實有一部分在供應鏈裡面。對。好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:17:49.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:08.781000+08:00","text":"另外一部分，經濟部現在說要宣布增產5,000噸的平價塑膠袋，我們想問的是，你一方面跟我們講說原料沒有問題，一方面跟我們講供貨沒有問題，但是你現在又說要宣布增加5,000噸的平價塑膠袋，那不就跟我們減塑的政策背道而馳？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:08.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:09.061000+08:00","text":"沒有，沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:09.061000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:10.061000+08:00","text":"委員，你不能這樣講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:09.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:10.723000+08:00","text":"到底你們跟經濟部這兩個部會是怎麼樣溝通的？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:12.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:29.543000+08:00","text":"第一個是民眾的日常生活當中，最後一哩路，攤販、夜市等等需要一種手提的塑膠袋，的確有些可能在供貨有預期心理之下，民眾會搶購，所以造成沒有，經濟部這樣做是為了安定人心，對我們來說，當然是推動減塑，我們也大力在推動。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:29.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:35.526000+08:00","text":"所以我現在要問的是說，像這個5,000噸的塑膠袋會是最後一波嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:35.526000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:36.526000+08:00","text":"這個是經濟部……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:35.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:38.128000+08:00","text":"還是說這個未來就變成常態，還是你要無限量生產？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:40.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:40.729000+08:00","text":"5,000噸有多少呢？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:41.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:41.350000+08:00","text":"12.5億個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:41.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:43.071000+08:00","text":"洪委員，因為已經超過5分鐘了，他們用報告提供給委員……","quality":0.409},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:43.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:43.951000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:43.951000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:44.951000+08:00","text":"因為後面有委員要趕行程，不好意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:44.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:44.892000+08:00","text":"因為過去除了有國內生產……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:44.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:46.773000+08:00","text":"所以現在是為了後面的委員要趕行程。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:46.773000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:55.958000+08:00","text":"不是，因為要考慮到後面的人啊。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:55.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:04.664000+08:00","text":"我當然有考慮啊，所以說，召委，如果你要這樣子控管的話，應該就是從源頭管理，每一位委員都有一定的標準。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:04.664000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:05.664000+08:00","text":"對啊，大家互相體諒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:04.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:14.191000+08:00","text":"我當然會互相，但是你看現在官員要講，然後就被打斷，這一些時間，官員早就可以講完了，不是嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:14.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:17.453000+08:00","text":"來，1分鐘，一句話，簡單說明一下，你們現在到底是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:17.453000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:18.794000+08:00","text":"一句話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:18.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:27.501000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，現在是短期在應急而已，不是一個常態性的，跟委員做一個說明。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:27.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:29.944000+08:00","text":"會不會還有再增加的政策？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副署長國軒","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:31.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:35.009000+08:00","text":"目前是這個狀況，當然還要看國際趨勢。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:35.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:36.631000+08:00","text":"又看國際趨勢，又不是自己掌握。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:38.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:51.568000+08:00","text":"本席再次強調，如果說要的話，政府是一體的，應該政策要一致性，而不是每一次要跟我們講這一套，但是做的又是另一套，讓民眾無所適從，我想這才是本席今天想要提出的。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:51.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:52.829000+08:00","text":"不會無所適從，這是兩個不一樣層次的問題。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:55.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:20.215000+08:00","text":"部長，本席想要結束這個質詢，是因為本席還對你的專業有尊重，但如果你每一次都要用這種搶話的方式，或是你每一次都要硬拗，因為本席現在就看到民眾的反應是最直接的嘛，過去一個月就是有發生很多的塑膠袋之亂，過去一個月就是有很多的民眾都說買不到塑膠袋，過去一個月就是看到經濟部一方面說沒有缺，但一方面又說要增量。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:21.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:26.342000+08:00","text":"我們想問的是，今天召委排那麼專業的報告就是要讓大家釐清這個狀況，每次都是這樣子在硬拗，民進黨政府現在是硬拗成性，然後連大白話都不能講就對了。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:26.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:26.482000+08:00","text":"對，因為大家現在……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:26.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:26.682000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝召委。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:26.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:26.902000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝洪孟楷委員發言。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:27.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:30.544857+08:00","text":"接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}