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12:23:32","會議時間":"2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長及台灣中油股份有限公司董事長、行政院經貿談判辦公室首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就「台美關稅協定（ART）中關於『擴大採購及購買』（原油、天然氣、發電設備等）項目之評估、規劃及涉及之問題與工作，並就台灣中油股份有限公司之增資案」進行報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":0.03096875,"end":1.7690937500000001,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":9.632843750000003,"end":12.872843750000001,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":13.193468750000001,"end":14.57721875,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":20.36534375,"end":21.15846875,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":21.88409375,"end":25.84971875,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":25.984718750000003,"end":52.81596875,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"曾董事長文生","start":45.77909375,"end":46.875968750000006,"speaker_score":0.914},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"曾董事長文生","start":51.010343750000004,"end":51.06096875,"speaker_score":0.914},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":51.06096875,"end":51.48284375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"曾董事長文生","start":51.48284375,"end":51.516593750000006,"speaker_score":0.914},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":54.047843750000006,"end":54.63846875,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":54.94221875,"end":55.90409375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":56.174093750000004,"end":56.916593750000004,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":57.017843750000004,"end":58.41846875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":58.502843750000004,"end":59.98784375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":60.12284375,"end":60.20721875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":60.20721875,"end":60.46034375000001,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":60.46034375000001,"end":60.51096875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":60.51096875,"end":60.56159375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":60.56159375,"end":60.96659375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":60.96659375,"end":86.63346875,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":86.78534375000001,"end":88.25346875000001,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":88.62471875,"end":90.32909375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":90.86909375,"end":90.88596875,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":90.88596875,"end":105.48284375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":96.48846875000001,"end":96.84284375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":105.88784375,"end":106.96784375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":106.96784375,"end":111.27096875000001,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":111.65909375000001,"end":118.03784375000001,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":118.03784375000001,"end":119.01659375000001,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":120.18096875,"end":120.75471875000001,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":120.95721875000001,"end":123.92721875000001,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":124.16346875,"end":128.63534375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":129.04034375,"end":133.84971875000002,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":134.27159375000002,"end":137.62971875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":138.08534375000002,"end":144.58221875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":144.85221875000002,"end":162.03096875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"曾董事長文生","start":151.50096875,"end":151.83846875,"speaker_score":0.914},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":162.21659375000002,"end":164.96721875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員安祥","start":164.96721875,"end":172.84784375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":173.13471875000002,"end":174.43409375000002,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"方董事長振仁","start":175.159718750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是不是有請中郵的方董事長有請中郵方董事長"},{"start":20.37,"end":48.711,"text":"董事長早剛剛前面很多委員都提到這個董事長非常辛苦因為現在累積的虧損其實蠻高的大家其實對這個中油現在為了要這個便宜物價的這個狀況做出一些可能你們的考量不過今天討論ART的部分你們這個好像要跟美國買400多億你們的報告上面寫的是444億美金的這個"},{"start":49.952,"end":74.061,"text":"LNG跟原油嗎?LNG的大概有多少?你們是寫跟原油嗎?186的樣子因為現在國的指數只有不少,大概不到一半不過因為現在國內等一下可能要談一下能源政策因為LNG對我們來說非常重要從這次美伊的戰爭就可以看出來"},{"start":75.501,"end":89.842,"text":"因為這件事情其實跟當初中油一直想要做投資這件事情其實一直大家覺得到底兩者有沒有關係因為當初本來說美國好像是要我們去投資嘛跟這個日韓不曉得這兩件事情也都是跟阿拉斯加嘛那不曉得這兩件事情有沒有關聯性"},{"start":91.619,"end":118.137,"text":"對 就是在去年3月20號我們跟美方簽了這個意向書嘛對這意向書裡面有兩項的主題一個是投資 一個是採購LNG對所以投資的部分也在這個內涵裡面是所以現在整個我們大概現在看起來是要買大概600萬最高600對 那相對來說當初好像說這條管線是大概2000萬噸對不對所以我們大概就佔了600嘛"},{"start":121.036,"end":142.06,"text":"對 它整個生產量是2000萬噸沒有錯對 所以現在投資的部分跟那個採購的部分到底狀況是怎麼樣目前就是採購的部分目前就這個採購簽約雙方在洽議當中美方那邊是希望能夠在今年年底以前能夠把這個採購簽約能夠談完"},{"start":144.921,"end":171.762,"text":"那投資還要繼續做嗎?那個MOU的部分投資的部分目前就是周圍公司還在評估啦但是現在問題就是在於說我們沒有收到他給我們的一些詳細的內容資料所以我們沒辦法去評估說這個投資有沒有他的一個效益目前還等待他最後的資料所以現在投資基本搞不清楚所以我們現在採購上是合乎效益的嗎?就是跟阿拉斯加買我們現在比例可以拉到好像30幾%嘛對不對?"},{"start":175.229,"end":184.976,"text":"到2029年跟美國買的天然氣我們希望能夠到達25%左右對 量會比較大一點這樣子對於中油的過去整個營運來說跟美國買LNG是經過成本的評估嗎還是因為要簽ART所以必須要做這樣的採購"},{"start":196.643,"end":219.163,"text":"在我想我们就是说我们中国是国营事业嘛采购任何东西都要依据采购法所以在做来源的选择上一定是要做一个评比那么如果说从美国来的天然气呢在当时的环境里面它是具有市场竞争力的话当然是我们一个很重要的一个考虑选项目"},{"start":219.403,"end":240.203,"text":"好 所以LNG我們現在看起來會慢慢的如果美國這個管道是OK的話會越來越充足嘛 是那這個能源上也就是說它可以提供不管是我們發電啦或是其他的用途啦會更有安全性的這個整個儲備是嗎不過現在是11天那未來採光的美國部分會提高我們的這個準備嗎"},{"start":241.965,"end":249.675,"text":"這個是跟國內的儲槽現有的儲槽的容積夠不夠有很大的關係所以目前來講國內的安全存在規定是11天那明年的話會提升到14天"},{"start":258.507,"end":286.636,"text":"所以就是因為這樣的採購所以我們國內的一些基礎建設變成要去新要去增加或是擴建所以這個基本上在LNG比較充足的狀況應該發電的狀況燃煤的話就會比較OK嗎台電的部分台電的董事長很簡單的因為今天這個麥寮這邊我想很多委員都在問是不是還有其必要"},{"start":288.021,"end":304.501,"text":"我們現在跟委員報告幾個時候第一個就是因應中東的狀況現在亞洲很多國家都在啟用燃煤機組甚至連德國也在做這件事那第二個事情我們就是做好準備因為因應所有的狀況我們就是把準備做好"},{"start":306.249,"end":332.765,"text":"所以這個麥良其實因為我也從中部來今天有人來開記者會其實大家對這件事非常非常關注我希望LNG在有中油的規劃之後是不是台電在燃煤的基礎上因為剛剛說還沒有招標也沒有還沒開始希望多一點為中部的我們居民的健康多一點考慮跟委員報告我們有一個規劃我們希望就是總燃煤量在不增加的狀況下把基礎來做開起來做調節好 感謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:07.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:10.285000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請中油的方董事長。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:10.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:11.327000+08:00","text":"請中油方董事長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:11.327000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:17.370000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:17.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:17.710000+08:00","text":"董事長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:19.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:49.613000+08:00","text":"剛剛前面很多委員都提到，董事長非常辛苦，因為累積虧損其實滿高的，大家其實對中油為了平抑物價做出一些考量，不過今天討論ART的部分，你們好像要跟美國買四百多億元，你們報告上面寫的是444億美金的LNG和原油，LNG大概有多少？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:56.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:18:58.756000+08:00","text":"186億元的樣子，確實數字我不記得。","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:18:59.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:26.822000+08:00","text":"大概不到一半，等一下可能要談一下能源政策，因為LNG對我們非常重要，從這次美伊戰爭就可以看出來，因為這件事情跟當初中油一直想要投資這件事情，大家覺得到底兩者有沒有關係，因為當初本來是說美國好像要我們跟日韓去投資，也都是跟阿拉斯加，不知道這兩件事情有沒有關聯性？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:29.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:41.648000+08:00","text":"去年3月20日我們跟美方簽了意向書，這意向書裡面有兩項主題，一個是投資，一個是採購LNG，所以投資的部分也在這個內涵裡面。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:44.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:47.552000+08:00","text":"現在看起來我們大概要買600萬噸。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:47.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:47.732000+08:00","text":"最高600萬噸。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:49.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:19:54.957000+08:00","text":"相對來說，當初好像說這條管線大概有2,000萬噸，我們就占了600噸嗎？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:19:58.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:00.677000+08:00","text":"對，它整個生產量是2,000萬噸沒有錯。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:01.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:03.357000+08:00","text":"現在投資部分和採購部分的狀況大概是怎樣？","quality":0.316},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:03.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:19.040000+08:00","text":"目前採購的部分，採購前約雙方洽議當中，美方是希望能夠在今年年底以前把採購前約談完。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:22.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:23.442000+08:00","text":"投資還要繼續做嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:23.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:24.423000+08:00","text":"MOU的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:26.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:40.856000+08:00","text":"目前中油公司還在評估，現在問題在於我們沒有收到它給我們一些詳細的內容資料，所以我們沒辦法去評估這個投資有沒有效益，目前還在等它最後的資料。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:41.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:45.479000+08:00","text":"所以現在投資的部分基本上還搞不清楚，那我們現在採購上是合乎效益的嗎？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:45.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:48.762000+08:00","text":"就是跟阿拉斯加買，我們現在的比率拉高到好像三十幾%，對不對？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:52.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:20:56.432000+08:00","text":"到2029年，我們希望跟美國買的天然氣能夠到達25%左右。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:20:56.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:21:01.015000+08:00","text":"量會比較大一點，這樣對於中油過去整個營運來說，跟美國買LNG是經過成本的評估嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:21:01.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:21:01.976000+08:00","text":"還是因為要簽ART，所以必須要做這樣的採購？","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:21:13.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:21:35.402000+08:00","text":"我們中油公司是國營事業，採購任何東西都要依據採購法，來源的選擇上一定要評比，如果從美國來的天然氣在當時的環境是具有市場競爭力的話，當然是我們很重要的一個考慮選項。","quality":0.539},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:21:39.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:21:43.290000+08:00","text":"如果美國這個管道OK的話，我們LNG看起來慢慢的會越來越充足。是。","quality":0.633},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:21:45.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:21:51.518000+08:00","text":"不管它是提供發電或其他用途，會更有安全性的儲備，是嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:21:51.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:21:57.203000+08:00","text":"過去是11天，未來採購了美國的部分，會提高我們的儲備天數嗎？","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:21:58.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:22:04.292000+08:00","text":"這個和國內現有的儲槽容積夠不夠有很大的關係。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:22:04.292000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:22:05.292000+08:00","text":"對，你們剛剛說要增資要增加一些設備嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:22:04.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:22:06.655000+08:00","text":"對，目前來講，國內的安全存量規定是11天，明年會提升到14天。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:22:15.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:22:17.108000+08:00","text":"就是因為這樣來採購嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-08T12:22:17.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:22:22.669000+08:00","text":"所以國內的一些基礎建設必須要增加或擴建。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:22:24.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:22:32.752000+08:00","text":"基本上在LNG比較充足的狀況下，發電中的燃煤就會比較OK嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:22:33.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:22:43.616000+08:00","text":"台電董事長，因為今天很多委員都在問麥寮的狀況，是不是還有其必要？","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2026-04-08T12:22:47.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:22:56.134000+08:00","text":"第一個，因應中東的狀況，亞洲很多國家都在啟動燃煤機組，甚至連德國也在做這件事。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2026-04-08T12:22:56.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:23:01.481000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們做好準備，因為因應所有的狀況，我們就是把準備做好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:23:05.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:23:17.838000+08:00","text":"我也從中部來，今天有人來開記者會，大家對這件事情非常關注，我希望LNG在中油的規劃之後，台電在燃煤機組上能為中部居民健康多一點考量，因為剛剛說還沒有招標。","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2026-04-08T12:23:23.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:23:29.705000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們有一個規劃，就是在總燃煤量不增加的狀況下，把機組開起來調節。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-04-08T12:23:29.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-08T12:23:29.765000+08:00","text":"好，感謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:23:30.265000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:23:32.265000+08:00","text":"謝謝王安祥委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-08T12:23:32.565000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-08T12:23:35.707857+08:00","text":"接下來請徐富癸委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}