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的確現在在部會分工上面那近海的漁業勞工的部分會是勞工部這邊來組成那遠洋漁業的部分會是農業部漁業署所以這部分其實他當然都是在漁撈業下所以漁撈業下包括近海包括遠洋那近海的部分是勞工部組的 遠洋部分是可是2024年我們統計就有18555人的遠洋"},{"start":151.727,"end":167.255,"text":"境外聘用的那個外籍漁工漁工權益到底要誰來把關還是說這些承諾就像你剛剛講會不會你在這個記者會講的承諾只有近海的沒有遠洋的如果說不歸啊那部長那在這個"},{"start":169.135,"end":196.624,"text":"在台美貿易協定上承諾的說治本協定生效日期三年內因於台灣之法律為從事遠洋漁業之非國民的移工提供相當於我國從事相當相同職業值國民享有的勞動權的一個保障那個跟文說明你剛才念的這一段其實是約束跟美方的承諾是這樣那可能請約束這邊來對好"},{"start":198.004,"end":226.757,"text":"那我先繼續先來提問 等一下我們再請那個署長這邊一併來做回答所以我們先來談一個就是我們扣留身份的文件是我們的國際勞工組織的11項強迫勞動的指標之一兩公寓平行報告也指出來說大部分的漁業的移工都會被以出海工作不好保管為由要求簽署請雇主仲介為其保管的志願書"},{"start":227.857,"end":249.735,"text":"但我想點出這個全責歸屬的問題現在境外僱用外籍漁工不適用就業服務法所以我想請問部長說境外僱用的外籍漁工也能有這個保障嗎這個政策會如何落實第一個事情是其實我們今天早上行政院院會已經會通過應該是會來討論列為討論案"},{"start":254.373,"end":276.923,"text":"就是關於這個救福法裡面那要把那個禁止留置勞工相關重要文件包括護照包括其他一些相關的許可文件的這樣子的修法的法案那如果今天早上的行政院會有在院會通過的話那會馬上的送到立法院來做審議"},{"start":278.854,"end":291.483,"text":"那但遠洋漁工的部分確實現在在行政院的部會分工裡面目前還是經濟部嗎?是漁業署他們有相關的法規應該會來處理這件事情來"},{"start":294.045,"end":309.865,"text":"署長 相關法規是什麼跟委員報告就是說我們遠洋漁業其實在民國60年代就開始發展它一開始發展的時候其實它高度仰賴境外僱傭的漁工它的制度就是在境外"},{"start":310.886,"end":325.343,"text":"這一個聘僱境外解僱所以當時那一塊裡面他一直沒有適用勞基法是這麼來的那剛剛委員特別提到說這一個證件的扣留的部分對 蘇長你先回答這個證件扣留"},{"start":325.843,"end":340.257,"text":"那我們在去年也特別修了那剛剛就是說我們走的是遠洋漁業條例授權的相關的法規嘛那在去年我們針對這一個政見扣留這一個部分我們也修法明文禁止說那什麼時候"},{"start":340.977,"end":354.893,"text":"已經修完了現在我們就明文禁止說不管是船長、船東、仲介都不能違反漁工的意願去扣留他的文件為什麼現在民團還是他們現在在處理這個時候還是碰到這些問題"},{"start":360.86,"end":382.233,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在一年我們所有的漁船裡面我們的訪查率大概達到將近60%也就是說100條船我訪了60條船這個扣留證件這件事是我們避訪的一個題目就是說漁工你有沒有被船方扣留證件我們高度重視這個議題"},{"start":383.294,"end":394.989,"text":"署長你可能把相關的你剛剛講到你們查訪的這些東西相關的資料再給我們因為我覺得時間的關係再來就是我覺得針對於優化仲介評鑑這一塊民團認為現在的評鑑相關資訊沒有完全公開"},{"start":399.054,"end":423.606,"text":"職方代表有求人兼裁判之嫌而且憑一些流於形式我現在是簡單化事實上他們報告給我的東西事實上是非常的多而且更應該要跟移工有直接溝通的一個機制都沒有所以美國的人口範圍報告當中也直接進行說將社會公民的團體的意見比如包括製造業跟移工代表跟專家及從業人員的意見你們正式納入人力"},{"start":424.566,"end":448.806,"text":"中介的評鑑的一個程序當中可是現在的評鑑就是中介的評鑑事實上是由我們的民業部約署來主管那我先問部長說可是在記者會上在優化評鑑這一塊事實上是洪山部長講的所以我就想說你們兩個邊的分工到底是什麼而且這次優化的評鑑制度會做出什麼樣的改善嗎"},{"start":451.439,"end":461.768,"text":"其實現在在移工的這個主管方面大家在行政院這邊的部會分工其實大概就是我剛才說的"},{"start":463.735,"end":482.752,"text":"包括製造業營造業家庭看護工甚至現在的幫傭那以致近海的這個移工近海的漁業移工其實都是有勞動部這邊相關署管的法規來去做管轄可是平建是他們呢"},{"start":483.832,"end":510.946,"text":"呃,評鑑的部分當然會涉及到他們,他們遠洋還是他們,但我們也會有這個國內的部分的中介評鑑,那我們目前其實也在規劃這個中介評鑑的優化的做法,尤其是要把這個公平招募的概念給放進來,那剛剛委員講到說在這個評鑑的過程裡面,我我自己的確認為各個厲害相關方都應該被納入進來,可以表達他們的意見跟想法,那包括當然包括民間團體好,"},{"start":511.966,"end":535.071,"text":"那也請漁業署也是比照辦理現在歐向不是只有我們落地的有管那遠洋的你沒有管然後那個評鑑你沒有辦法處理根據委員報告其實我們的評鑑因為我們既然走了遠洋漁業條例也有仲介機構那我們其實都是參考勞動部相關的規定建立了這一個仲介評鑑制度那評鑑委員的部分我們"},{"start":536.111,"end":563.039,"text":"學長我覺得還是時間的關係所以請你都有相關的資料給我是說包含你們這幾年邀請的委員是誰不是只有資方跟學者那民間團體甚至一些漁工代表都沒有這個請你們再把相關的報告給我報告沒問題那勞動部承諾三年內要去落實我們的製造業跟漁勞業的移工的那個"},{"start":563.679,"end":585.179,"text":"我剛剛也聽到部長也講說你們接下來要做我看報告也有我認為這當然是利益良善的政策可是我想追問三個問題第一個三零零付費的年度進度的那個指標是什麼那第二個是說如果沒有達成的話問責機制是什麼還有這項政策到底是誰來主動是農業部還是是勞動部"},{"start":588.611,"end":616.547,"text":"跟委員說明喔其實三年內那要以這個法規的方式來禁止像製造業跟漁勞業的移工收取招募還有相關的費用這部分是我們跟美方在ART裡面相關的承諾的事項是那我們的確我們認為這一個這個方向其實也符合目前國際上面勞動權益規範的部分可是如果沒有達成的話你的問責其實"},{"start":618.315,"end":646.452,"text":"其實我想這個政策方向當然就是我們要去努力去做的事情那也跟我們坦白說明其實因為台灣確實我們的中小企業比較多所以我們會在這裡面會需要有一點這個調試期這個所謂的調試期就是這三年所以在這三年的過程裡面我們現在其實已經在ART通過前我們已經發布了指引那接下來會有相關的宣導那我們也會來調整像剛剛我們剛才講到的"},{"start":646.892,"end":665.088,"text":"包括仲介的評鑑甚至其實相關的制度我們會一步一步的在這三年內讓我們的產業然後有能力來去因應接下來這樣子國際的要求那我再去問一個就它外籍漁工母國的仲介費用這次是不是也是你們要去處理的範圍"},{"start":666.329,"end":694.22,"text":"跟委員報告一樣啊這個招募費的禁止收取這一個部分我們國內的部分在我們境外僱用的遠洋漁工的部分我們現在已經是已經修法完成了禁止我們的仲介機構對那是這邊是那來源國的部分因為我們也支持就是跟勞動部的政策就是說未來漁工來到台灣都是要零付費但是現在來源國這一端他的收費"},{"start":695.14,"end":713.918,"text":"其實是有一點不夠透明那到底要收多少我想這一個是應該雙邊我們台灣跟來源國雙邊要諮商好如果要由我們台灣的雇主要全額來吸收也沒關係大家要談清楚就是說你來源國那一邊你的費用從"},{"start":715.82,"end":734.753,"text":"這一個護照見檢然後訓練到他的所謂的服務費到底多少可能要講清楚要不然我們僱主會有一個不知所措說那我答應了說由我僱主付那結果像印方收的這個招募費可能6000到7000美金那這個不談清楚的時候是很難跟我們僱主去說明的好 署長一樣這個還是提供我書面資料最後就是針對於"},{"start":745.7,"end":764.172,"text":"能不能擴大我們的災保的納保對象那因為之前我就先請教過部長了那部長說當然沒有辦法向家事移工那我們也有問過漁業署漁業署是說商保都有可是基本上怎麼會跟民團的說法都不一樣因為時間關係我很簡單的就是希望"},{"start":767.234,"end":784.317,"text":"約署可不可以給我你們所謂商保的納保率到底多少那數據提供給我然後未來我覺得還是要問我們的勞動部我們還是希望能夠朝向能夠納入在我們的那個災保法的一個納保對象是否有可能"},{"start":785.143,"end":801.634,"text":"先跟委員報告這一個資料提供沒問題那我們現在法制是強制要求通通是要納入商業保險重點就是問題是你們的納保率說很高跟民團的那個狀況就說的是不一樣所以說請你們提供所有的相關數據給我們讓我們了解到否則的話我們覺得這個根本好像"},{"start":808.118,"end":828.512,"text":"是一邊講這個一邊講那個可是根本我們也是沒有辦法看數據最後我們就希望說不要把部分勞工排除在保障之外應該將境外的聘僱的外籍漁工一起納入到我們的勞動保險的法規所以我還是希望我們的勞動部能夠去研議跟漁業署這邊來共同合作"},{"start":830.083,"end":844.641,"text":"跟我們說明其實包括在這次這個台美的這個貿易談判裡面其實我想農業部約署其實也很清楚的確國際上面是要求說在遠洋漁工他其實要受到的這個"},{"start":846.202,"end":871.095,"text":"勞動上面的權力的保障其實應該要往這個本國人去往這個方向去拉起所以我說這部分其實方向上是這樣所以即便用不同的法規可是這個要求的標準其實現在也要往拉起的方向去目前這是我們跟農業部會分工在跟這個社會的談判裡面其實方向是這樣就算是不同的法規"},{"start":872.156,"end":882.403,"text":"但是盡量要求的標準要趨近好 再麻煩 謝謝好 謝謝丁育群 張偉的發言也謝謝各起"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:10:32.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:10:38.109000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，首先麻煩勞動部部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T09:10:38.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:10:38.529000+08:00","text":"有請洪部長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:10:38.529000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:10:41.332500+08:00","text":"林委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:10:41.332500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:10:44.136000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:10:44.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:10:46.637000+08:00","text":"我們今天要談的不是貿易問題，事實上是人權問題，也是臺灣的國際信譽問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:10:46.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:10:49.277000+08:00","text":"我們將兩公約國內法化之後，不能一邊談民主政治，一邊對強迫勞動視而不見，但國際社會顯然認為我們做得不夠。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:10:49.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:11:19.192000+08:00","text":"臺灣的遠洋漁業從2020年三度遭到美國列入「童工及強迫勞動製品清單」，美國貿易代表署今年也啟動301條款，針對強迫勞動的調查，我們臺灣又被點名。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:11:20.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:11:25.436000+08:00","text":"強迫勞動是我們急需解決的問題，所以今天想跟部長討論一下，臺灣到底要怎麼去面對這個問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:11:30.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:11:55.305000+08:00","text":"在臺美對等貿易協定的記者會上，我想部長有參與、有發言，在55分鐘左右的時間，我們看到你的發言，勞動部公開承認要接軌國際的勞動規範，防止強制勞動，其中你有提到漁撈業，也包含了我們的遠洋漁業，這一點我覺得非常重要，因為遠洋漁業的強迫勞動議題正是國際社會最關切的。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:11:58.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:12:31.113000+08:00","text":"可是有個根本性、制度上的問題，想請教部長，在現行制度下，境外僱用外籍漁工不適用勞動法規管轄，而是歸「境外僱用非我國籍船員許可及管理辦法」，主管機關也不是勞動部，而是農業部漁業署，有這個根本性的……可是在記者會上，你說要來處理勞動問題，部長在記者會上宣示的這些政策，要怎麼落實到這些人身上？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:12:32.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:12:38.717000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，的確現在在部會的分工上面，近海漁業勞工的部分是勞動部主責……","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:12:38.717000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:12:40.618000+08:00","text":"是，那遠洋……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:12:40.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:12:52.583000+08:00","text":"但是遠洋漁業的部分是農業部漁業署，所以這部分其實……它當然都是在漁撈業下，漁撈業下包括近海、包括遠洋，近海的部分是勞動部主責，遠洋的部分是……","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:12:53.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:13:03.729000+08:00","text":"可是2024年我們統計遠洋漁船境外聘用的外籍漁工就有1萬8,555人，漁工權益到底誰來把關？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:13:03.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:13:11.153000+08:00","text":"還是就像你在記者會講的承諾，只有近海，沒有遠洋的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:13:12.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:13:35.761000+08:00","text":"如何像在臺美貿易協定上承諾的，自本協定生效日起3年內，應於臺灣之法律，為從事遠洋漁業之外籍漁工，提供相當於我國從事相同職業國民享有的勞動權保障？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:13:37.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:13:43.604000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，剛剛唸的這段，其實是漁業署跟美方的承諾，可能請漁業署這邊回答。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:13:43.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:13:50.606000+08:00","text":"好，我先繼續詢問，等一下再請署長一併回答。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:13:51.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:14:13.757000+08:00","text":"我們先來談，扣留身分文件是國際勞工組織11項強迫勞動的指標之一，兩公約平行報告也指出大部分的漁業移工都會被以出海工作不好保管為由，要求簽署請雇主、仲介為其保管的自願書。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:14:14.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:14:28.348000+08:00","text":"我想點出這個權責歸屬的問題，現在境外僱用的外籍漁工不適用就業服務法，所以我想請問部長，境外僱用的外籍漁工也能有這個保障嗎？","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:14:28.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:14:30.910000+08:00","text":"這個政策會如何落實？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:14:30.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:15:03.923000+08:00","text":"第一個事情，我們今天早上行政院院會已經通過……應該是會來討論，列為討論案，就是關於就服法裡面禁止留置勞工相關重要文件，包括護照、其他一些相關許可文件的修法法案，如果今天早上的行政院院會通過的話，會馬上送到立法院審議。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:15:06.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:15:12.179000+08:00","text":"但遠洋漁工的部分，在行政院的部會分工裡面，目前……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:15:12.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:15:13.800000+08:00","text":"還是經濟部嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:15:13.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:15:14.800000+08:00","text":"漁業署嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:15:13.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:15:18.463000+08:00","text":"是漁業署，他們有相關的法規，應該會來處理這些事情。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:15:21.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:15:23.769000+08:00","text":"署長，相關法規是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:15:23.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:15:24.769000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:15:23.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:15:44.774000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們遠洋漁業在民國60年代就開始發展，一開始發展的時候實高度仰賴境外僱用的漁工，它的制度就是在境外聘僱、境外解僱，所以當時那塊一直沒有適用勞基法，是這麼來的。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:15:46.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:15:50.020000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員特別提到證件扣留的部分……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:15:50.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:15:52.323000+08:00","text":"對，署長，我只要你先回答證件扣留。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:15:53.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:16:06.376000+08:00","text":"是，我們在去年也特別修了，剛剛說我們走的是遠洋漁業條例授權的相關法規，在去年我們針對證件扣留這個部分，也修法明文禁止……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:16:06.376000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:16:07.977000+08:00","text":"已經修完了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:16:07.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:16:20.852000+08:00","text":"對，已經修完了，現在明文禁止不管是船長、船東、仲介，都不能違反漁工的意願去扣留他的文件。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:16:20.852000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:16:21.852000+08:00","text":"漁工知道嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:16:21.852000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:16:22.852000+08:00","text":"知道，我們在相關宣導……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:16:20.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:16:21.893000+08:00","text":"為什麼民團他們現在處理的時候，還是碰到這些問題？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:16:27.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:16:49.233000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，現在一年就所有的漁船，我們訪查率達到將近60%，也就是說100條船，我們訪了60條船，扣留證件這一件事是我們必訪的一個題目，漁工有沒有被船方扣留證件，我們高度重視這個議題。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:16:50.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:16:55.421000+08:00","text":"署長，你把剛剛講到你們查訪的這些相關資料再給我們。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:16:55.421000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:16:56.421000+08:00","text":"沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:16:55.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:16:57.603000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:16:57.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:17:10.016000+08:00","text":"再來針對於優化仲介評鑑這一塊，民團認為現在的評鑑相關資訊沒有完全公開，資方代表有球員兼裁判之嫌，而且評鑑流於形式。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:17:10.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:17:34.008000+08:00","text":"我今天是簡單化，他們報告給我的東西事實上非常多，而且應該要跟漁工有直接溝通的一個機制但是都沒有，所以美國的人口販運報告也直接建議將社會公民團體的意見，比如說製造業跟漁工代表、專家及從業人員的意見，能不能正式納入人力仲介評鑑的程序當中？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:17:34.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:17:40.814000+08:00","text":"但現在仲介評鑑事實上是由農業部漁業署來主管？是。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:17:41.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:17:53.364000+08:00","text":"我先問部長，記者會上，在優化評鑑這一塊，事實上是洪部長講的，你們兩邊的分工到底是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:17:53.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:17:55.806000+08:00","text":"而且這次優化的評鑑制度會做出什麼樣的改善嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:17:58.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:18:28.130000+08:00","text":"其實現在移工的主管方面，在行政院這邊的部會分工就是我剛才說的，包括製造業、營造業、家庭看護工，甚至現在的幫傭，以至近海的漁業移工，其實都是由勞動部這邊相關的主管法規來做管轄……","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:18:28.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:18:29.732000+08:00","text":"可是評鑑是他們？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:18:30.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:18:47.240000+08:00","text":"評鑑的部分，涉及到遠洋還是漁業署，但我們也會有國內這部分的仲介評鑑，我們目前其實也在規劃仲介評鑑的優化做法，尤其是要把公平招募的概念放進來。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:18:48.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:18:57.926000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員講到在評鑑過程裡面，我自己的確認為各個利害相關方都應該被納進來，可以表達他們的意見跟想法，當然包括民間團體。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:18:57.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:19:08.828000+08:00","text":"好，也請漁業署比照辦理，我想不是只有落地的有管，而遠洋的沒有管，導致評鑑沒有辦法處理。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:19:09.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:19:21.831000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，關於我們的評鑑，因為我們既然走了遠洋漁業條例，也有仲介機構，那我們其實都是參考勞動部的相關規定建立仲介評鑑制度，在評鑑委員的部分，勞團都有納進去。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:19:23.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:19:39.856000+08:00","text":"署長，因為時間的關係，所以請你把相關資料給我，包含你們這幾年邀請的委員是誰，不是只有資方跟學者，民間團體甚至一些漁工代表都沒有，請你們再把相關的報告給我。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:19:40.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:19:42.177000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:19:43.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:20:04.832000+08:00","text":"勞動部承諾3年內要落實禁止向我們的製造業跟漁撈業移工收取招募費，我剛才也聽到部長講你們接下來要做，我看報告也有，這當然是立意良善的政策，可是我想追問三個問題：第一個，3年落實零付費的年度進度指標是什麼？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:20:05.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:20:09.296000+08:00","text":"第二個，如果沒有達成的話，問責機制是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:20:09.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:20:12.159000+08:00","text":"還有這項政策到底是誰來主動，是農業部，還是勞動部？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:20:15.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:20:33.402000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，其實3年內要以法規的方式，禁止向製造業跟漁撈業的移工收取招募費還有相關的費用，這部分是我們跟美方在ART裡面相關的承諾事項。是。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:20:34.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:20:40.566000+08:00","text":"的確我們認為這個方向，其實也符合目前國際上勞動權益的規範。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:20:41.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:20:43.527000+08:00","text":"可是如果沒有達成的話，你的問責機制？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:20:45.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:21:02.205000+08:00","text":"其實我想這個政策方向，當然就是我們要去努力去做的事情，也跟委員坦白說明，因為臺灣確實中小企業比較多，所以我們在這裡面會需要一點調適期，所謂的調適期就是這3年。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:21:03.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:21:10.570000+08:00","text":"這3年的過程，我們其實在ART通過前已經發布了指引，接下來會有相關的宣導。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:21:10.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:21:24.542000+08:00","text":"我們也會來調整，像剛剛委員講到的，包括仲介的評鑑，甚至相關的制度，我們會一步一步地在這3年內，讓我們的產業有能力去因應接下來這樣子的要求。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:21:24.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:21:32.088000+08:00","text":"我再問一個問題，外籍漁工母國的仲介費用，是不是也是你們這次要處理的範圍？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:21:33.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:21:46.274000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，一樣，招募費禁止收取部分，我們國內在境外僱用的遠洋漁工現在也已經修法完成，禁止我們的仲介機構……","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:21:46.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:21:47.034000+08:00","text":"對，這是這邊，對於他的母國呢？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:21:47.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:22:33.267000+08:00","text":"來源國的部分，因為我們也支持勞動部的政策，未來漁工來到臺灣都是要零付費，但是現在來源國這一端的收費其實是有一點不夠透明，到底要收多少，我想這應該是雙邊，即我們臺灣跟來源國雙邊要諮商好，如果要由我們臺灣的雇主全額吸收，也沒關係，大家談清楚，就是來源國那一邊的費用，從護照、健檢、訓練到所謂的服務費，到底是多少可能要講清楚，要不然我們雇主會不知所措。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:22:34.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:22:40.572000+08:00","text":"譬如我答應了由我雇主付，像印方可能收招募費6,000到7,000美金，這個不談清楚的時候是很難跟我們雇主去說明的。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:22:40.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:22:40.932000+08:00","text":"好，署長，這個還是提供書面資料給我。好。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:22:41.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:23:31.297000+08:00","text":"最後針對於能不能擴大我們災保的納保對象，之前我就先請教過部長了，部長說當然沒有辦法像家事移工，我們也有問過漁業署，漁業署是說商保都有，可是怎麼會跟民團的說法都不一樣，因為時間關係，很簡單的，我希望漁業署可不可以給我數據，你們所謂商保納保率到底多少，數據提供給我，至於未來，我覺得還是要問勞動部，我們還是希望能夠朝向納入災保法的納保對象，是否有可能？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:23:32.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:23:39.748000+08:00","text":"先跟委員報告，資料的提供沒問題，我們現在法制是強制要求通通要納入商業保險。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:23:41.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:23:47.193000+08:00","text":"問題是你們說的納保率很高，跟民團說的狀況就是不一樣。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王署長茂城","start":"2026-04-09T09:23:47.193000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:23:48.193000+08:00","text":"我想這是有所誤解……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:23:47.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:23:48.174000+08:00","text":"所以請你們提供所有的相關數據給我們。好。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:23:48.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:23:59.581000+08:00","text":"讓我們了解，否則我們覺得這根本好像是一邊講這個，一邊講那個，可是根本我們也是沒辦法看數據。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:23:59.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:24:15.492000+08:00","text":"最後我們希望不要把部分勞工排除在保障之外，應該將境外聘僱的外籍漁工一起納入到我們勞動保險的法規，所以我還是希望我們的勞動部能夠去研議，跟漁業署共同合作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:24:17.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:24:43.067000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，包括在這次臺美的貿易談判裡面，我想農業部漁業署其實很清楚，的確國際上面是要求在遠洋漁工要受到勞動上面的權利保障，應該要往本國人這個方向去拉齊，這部分方向上是這樣。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:24:43.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:24:56.735000+08:00","text":"所以即便用不同的法規，可是這個要求的標準現在也要往拉齊的方向去，目前我們跟農業部兩部會分工在涉外的談判裡面，方向是這樣……","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:24:56.735000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:24:57.735000+08:00","text":"所以請你們要研議……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:24:56.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:25:02.846000+08:00","text":"就算是不同的法規，但是儘量要求的標準要趨近。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-09T09:25:03.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:25:04.249000+08:00","text":"好，再麻煩，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:25:04.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:25:07.237000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T09:25:07.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:25:09.202000+08:00","text":"謝謝林月琴召委的發言，也謝謝各位官員的答詢。","quality":0.35},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T09:25:09.702000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:25:12.844857+08:00","text":"下一位請陳菁徽委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}