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請洪部長"},{"start":21.027,"end":41.384,"text":"一開始先講一些就最近觀察到的數據讓您知道2025年的工總呢他白皮書發表說最近最大的問題就是缺工我想這個你應該也都知道了那跟您比較相關的是財訊做了一個對於賴清德總統的民調那他最滿意喔"},{"start":42.185,"end":71.708,"text":"他們最滿意的政策85.6%剛好是您從前反對那就是調整非核家園這樣子的政策可是企業是很支持的那最不滿意的政策剛好也跟您相關這個就是缺工的問題有63%的企業不滿意現況那未來呢我覺得您可能常會面對到這樣子的問題啦可能每次答詢都要講這些所以未來應該也沒有什麼要迴避的地方那"},{"start":72.128,"end":95.833,"text":"我本期間只是想跟你討論說剛你有一直提到說外籍的移工或者是這篇是在講外籍的實習生那你都希望可以盡量跟本國人拉齊這你剛答詢你會請委員的那缺工就真的太嚴重所以不管是交通部經濟部教育部都引進了外籍留學生這樣子的人力"},{"start":97.233,"end":119.09,"text":"那很多委員都質詢嘛所以今年2026年1月的時候經濟部就提出了企業級法人申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點那裡面也一直強調說都有找勞動部要來稽查找勞動部給意見所以其實呢他們就是找勞動部來背書說他們有正視這些實習生的勞權那經濟部說要比照勞務的事實但這個實習要點"},{"start":125.475,"end":142.541,"text":"我不知道你有沒有注意到他其實沒有很很強烈的罰則他唯一的處罰就是說他會對實習單位撤銷或廢止實習核准函所以我想問您會覺得說這有達到您剛提到的想要跟本國人拉起這個標準嗎"},{"start":144.329,"end":168.091,"text":"跟陳委員說明其實現在在講的這個外國實習生他們的學籍現在在包括是經濟部跟交通部他們的學籍其實是在國外那是由國外的學生那國外的這個學校單位來跟來找台灣的企業來去做這樣實習的合作那在今年以前"},{"start":169.591,"end":175.103,"text":"其實這樣子的實習生他用他用這樣實習的名義其實他"},{"start":177.847,"end":204.293,"text":"有很多的包括薪資的給付包括相關的權益說實話都跟現在台灣的勞動法規是有一段落差的所以其實去年就是我們勞動部我們也去找包括經濟部包括交通部也包括行政院大家協調我們認為這樣子的做法不是個辦法因為這會讓很多企業"},{"start":205.273,"end":212.531,"text":"就會用這樣子的方式可能會繞開勞動的法規甚至去找這個相對非常非常"},{"start":214.366,"end":242.357,"text":"廉價的或便宜的這個勞動力我們認為不是辦法所以我們才在應該是在去年的時候在行政院跟經濟部跟交通部來討論至少他們應該要把這個用這樣子方式的進來的外國籍的實習生比方說他們的工資他們相關的權益包括可能相關該做的一些這個尤其是薪資的部分然後勞動條件應該至少要比照我們"},{"start":244.198,"end":263.975,"text":"臺灣勞動法規的最低的標準那所以現在是應該在1月1號之後在經濟部跟交通部其實他們有調整了他們的相關的規範想要把它給拉起來那這部分的確我們是跟一步一步談不然如果在去年的情境的話很有可能其實這一個外國行醫生他一個月拿到薪資確實是非常非常低的"},{"start":264.175,"end":290.175,"text":"那我舉一個很簡單的例子我舉一個很簡單的例子因為我看了一下這個實習要點裡面一個很簡單的例子也會是您重視的如果根據勞工保險條例沒有對勞工投保那他這個罰環是重的可能從4倍到10倍都有根據第72條第38條可是這個實習要點就像我剛剛跟你講的他只會對實習單位做撤銷或是廢止核准函"},{"start":290.675,"end":299.088,"text":"那除了薪資我覺得他們的勞權你未來的進度是如何否則我們又會常常被冠上這種強迫勞動的惡名"},{"start":300.964,"end":321.693,"text":"跟這跟陳委員說明第一個確實因為比方說如果如果這個學生他是學籍是在國內那學籍在國內的話其實通常會分成學習型實習跟工作型實習如果是工作型實習的話其實就是比較工作你的意思是說因為他學籍不在國內所以你這邊有點困難"},{"start":324.694,"end":352.401,"text":"因為他的學籍不在國內所以他不太目前的確在現有的這個司法性上他不太適用於我們目前國內的當法規但是我跟你說因為他現在是由他進來的方式是由經濟部跟交通部可是經濟部經濟部的投審代理司長他對外的發言他是說過去較偏重學生身份現在的重點則是放在勞務提供者"},{"start":353.001,"end":372.089,"text":"所以呢他會給予勞務提供者的相對基本保障並且啊他還直接講說他會不定期的與勞動部共同進行防事所以他自己經濟部他已經把他偏重在勞務提供者勒跟穆仁說明這是我們去跟經濟部談"},{"start":374.901,"end":387.891,"text":"現在大家才比較清楚至少在這個國外學籍的實習生進來他就是一個應該是比較一個工作形式只是他的法規是法性上面的確他目前不是"},{"start":392.274,"end":418.564,"text":"不是直接適用交通部這邊主管的相關法規所以比較要從經濟部跟交通部他們訂的要點那這部分我們也一直在跟經濟部溝通他們應該把這個相關的標準給拉高那我講下一個案例這個新聞我相信你應該有看到就是BBC去採訪我們的一位外籍移工那這個移工他是女性他跟其他的女性組了一個女性工人組織的工會那隨即呢"},{"start":419.184,"end":433.075,"text":"有這個工會成立之後他就跟其他組工會的人被非法解雇就規定他們說離開產線交回制服員工證一個小時內搬出宿舍因為他們破壞和諧那這個BC對我們的報導是非常不"},{"start":434.696,"end":452.166,"text":"非常其實非常侵犯到我們國家的顏面啦因為他直接說台灣移工是囚犯式的管理那為什麼這樣描述是因為他們在這個宿舍女生規定一定要住有宵禁所以呢回來以後還要拍照回傳那如果說你"},{"start":452.866,"end":464.68,"text":"遲了或者是說你未歸那你就要被罰一些勞動的清掃廁所等等清掃廁所還要再存證所以這個移工他說他整個手機裡面全部都是每天打卡或是清掃廁所這些照片那他認為啊他"},{"start":468.644,"end":492.402,"text":"如果這個在台灣如果這些人他可能有其他的親戚朋友他出去他就要趕著11點回來並且被公司規定說你在台灣有什麼認識的人姓名手機地址全部都要交出來那這個工會的幹部也說如果這個他們裡面有個內部管理的規章被他們取得如果在受僱的時候談戀愛等等結婚懷孕就會被受罰"},{"start":493.303,"end":508.373,"text":"那這一家呢他已經因為歧視懷孕者曾經被桃園市政府開罰30萬今年呢勞動部已經函請新北市勞動局依法調查那我只想確認一下您現在掌握的中央調查進度如何"},{"start":509.363,"end":531.119,"text":"跟文說明因為這個案子在去年的下半年那因為他有新北的部分有桃園的部分所以其實相關的部分我們其實都請地方政府去查查那其實我們其實都就是說就是依法辦理那如果其實在查查過程裡面確確有違法的事證的話該怎麼處理 多久之內我們可以看到這個裁罰的公函"},{"start":532.079,"end":552.716,"text":"現在就我們知道他應該是在台灣市的這個檢查下面去年12月應該有被裁罰兩筆一個是應該是一個是我記得一個是性供法一個是加班公使的部分那加班公使是勞基法那他應該當然這個這個案例裡面還有一個部分是現在進入到裁決的部分"},{"start":556.76,"end":574,"text":"那這步進度我請市長說你就簡單的講大概多久以內我們大概就四月份就會完成這個裁決的調查跟確定好那我們在等你的裁決公函那依照這個例子其實我就想跟您討論一下外國人生活照顧服務計畫書裁量基準"},{"start":574.52,"end":604.1,"text":"那這個基準當然是為了保護這些移工宿舍它規定的空間的大小這個廁所啦 隱私啦 安全啦等等的它硬體的規定比較多但您從這個案例看得出來說您這個採樣基準其實很難規定到它延伸出去的管理問題比如說門禁 拍照啊私生活的監控啊交往啊 懷孕等等的它已經逾越人權的這樣子的紅線是沒有辦法藉由這個基準"},{"start":605.341,"end":623.451,"text":"來規範的你認為這個基準是需要調整根本說沒有其實我認為我們現在的這個基準就是我們其實這些相關的執法或者相關的基準其實如果大家有更進一步相關的意見的話我認為我們的目標其實跟我們發言所目標很簡單就是我們應該對齊國際的標準"},{"start":625.833,"end":642.662,"text":"對那在這個國際的標準的這個範疇之下那我們當然都可以來對於這些相關的標準來進行一些檢討我想這個因為我們也看到一個狀況是這些國際的標準他其實也越標準也越來越高他也在變動"},{"start":644.461,"end":666.868,"text":"大家對長期活動的問題也越來越重視不管是我們很多貿易的重要的貿易夥伴國家或者是很多的供應鏈的品牌或者是進口商他們其實對這部分的重視程度包括要求標準越來越高所以我們的確也會需要針對這部分一段時間就要來檢視我們的標準跟國際的標準之間有沒有落差是不是要調整的"},{"start":667.108,"end":689.935,"text":"那我等一下再跟您請教這個進度所以因為剛剛已經你們都有提到了因為ART所以2026年2月你們也發布了一個企業防制強迫勞動參考的指引但是呢這個指引他就欠缺執行力更強的查核揭露還有處罰機制我舉一個國建署自己統計的例子國建署他跟勞保局一起統計2024年有6000名移工懷孕"},{"start":693.376,"end":706.362,"text":"但是呢被聯手勸退就回到了母國所以這高達78%是終止契約的看在人民的眼裡這個數據正常嗎所以您覺得這個指引真的有規範到雇主嗎"},{"start":707.366,"end":728.332,"text":"跟委員說明第一個這裡面會分幾個層次其實現在ILO在強迫勞動上面其實是有11項指標那我們自己其實也去做了相關的法規的檢視在法規的檢視裡面大概我們認為比方說有幾項的確我們在法規上面其實有強化的必要比方說"},{"start":729.352,"end":746.274,"text":"不應該扣留移工相關的證件這也是為什麼今天我們提出這個修法這部分這個你說今天院會會討論你們有預計什麼時候要完成修法嗎要什麼時候送到立法院今天如果院會通過就馬上送就馬上送到立法院就關於扣留護照立法院扣留的部分那另外一個部分是包括"},{"start":747.472,"end":775.569,"text":"就是招募費就是recruitment fee的部分那這的確在我們在跟美方的承諾裡面是認為是三年內要用法規來明定用法規來明確不能夠向移工來做收費不然這就會有抵債勞務的問題所以這幾個部分這幾個指標尤其特定這幾個指標確實在法規上我們認為有強化的必要那剛剛委員剛剛其實前面在講的的確指引的部分它其實比較是讓"},{"start":776.59,"end":799.776,"text":"我們很多企業比較知道第一個怎麼樣去辨識自己目前強迫勞動的風險但是這個得靠企業的自律啊對所以他有些部分他也要靠法規可是法規的修訂會部分法規修訂會陸陸續續一步一步的來修訂那我以為你剛才講的包括查核包括處罰這當然都是需要法規的那指引的目的是因為很多企業現在先來跟我們做他說"},{"start":801.256,"end":813.301,"text":"我大概知道國際上有這個要求可是我不知道該怎麼做我不知道該怎麼去檢視我的風險那這一個指引的目的是協助我們的企業先做辨識風險才有辦法管理風險"},{"start":816.24,"end":839.449,"text":"好那我給你三個結論就剛剛提到的啦這個指引他缺乏強制力還有他就是很仰賴自律那當然我們也有很好的企業但是也有可能不良的企業那很難防堵他侵害人權那第二當然是包括這個我們來規定他建議他生活照顧標準的裁量基準那大部分是著重在硬體"},{"start":840.169,"end":862.289,"text":"您剛也說您會考量把它延伸到這個管理層面以免它逾越了一些私人的紅線等等的監控那這個第三項就是修復法第五條跟第四條那這三樣因為中間您已經解釋了所以關於指引還有基準您要怎麼修改可不可以一個月提供書面報告給我"},{"start":864.071,"end":876.041,"text":"第一個我可以跟委員這邊我們請同仁這邊交換資料再說但我覺得一個重要的原則就是希望要能夠接軌國際的要求跟標準其實我覺得這是最重要的原則好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:25:21.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:25:23.355000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，謝謝各位委員，還有官員的出席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:25:23.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:25:26.076000+08:00","text":"我們請洪申翰部長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T09:25:26.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:25:26.417000+08:00","text":"好，再請洪申翰部長。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:25:26.417000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:25:30.722000+08:00","text":"陳委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:25:30.722000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:25:35.027000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:25:35.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:26:25.067000+08:00","text":"一開始先講一些最近觀察到的數據讓您知道，2025年的工總白皮書發表最近最大的問題就是缺工，我想這個你應該也都知道了，跟您比較相關的是財訊做了一個對於賴清德總統的民調，他們最滿意的政策，有85.6%支持，剛好是您從前反對，那就是調整非核家園這樣的政策，可是企業是很支持的；而最不滿意的政策，剛好也跟您相關，就是缺工的問題，有63%的企業不滿意現況，未來我覺得您可能會常常面對到這樣子的問題，可能每次答詢都要講這些，所以未來應該也沒有什麼要迴避的地方。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:26:26.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:26:40.791000+08:00","text":"本席今天只是想跟你討論，剛剛你有一直提到外籍移工，或者這一篇是在講外籍的實習生，你都希望可以儘量跟本國人拉齊，這是你剛剛答詢林月琴委員的。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:26:41.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:27:12.390000+08:00","text":"缺工真的太嚴重，所以不管是交通部、經濟部、教育部都引進了外籍留學生這樣子的人力，很多委員都質詢，所以今年2026年1月的時候，經濟部就提出了企業及法人申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點，裡面也一直強調都有找勞動部來稽查、找勞動部給意見，所以其實他們就是找勞動部背書他們有正視這些實習生的勞權。","quality":0.992},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:27:12.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:27:30.099000+08:00","text":"再來，經濟部說要比照勞務的事實，但這個實習要點，我不知道你有沒有注意到，它其實沒有很強烈的罰則，它唯一的處罰就是會對實習單位撤銷或廢止實習核准函。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:27:30.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:27:36.541000+08:00","text":"所以我想問，您覺得這有達到您剛剛提到的想要跟本國人拉齊的這個標準嗎？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:27:38.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:28:21.769000+08:00","text":"跟陳委員說明，其實現在在講的外國實習生，包括經濟部跟交通部的，他們的學籍其實是在國外，那是由國外的學校單位來找臺灣的企業去做這樣實習的合作，在今年以前，其實這樣子的實習生用這樣實習的名義，他有很多包括薪資的給付，包括相關的權益，說實話，都跟現在臺灣的勞動法規是有一段落差的。","quality":0.992},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:28:22.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:28:52.187000+08:00","text":"所以其實去年我們勞動部也去找包括經濟部、教育部、交通部，也包括行政院，大家協調，我們認為這樣子的做法不是個辦法，因為這會讓很多企業用這樣子的方式，可能會繞開勞動的法規，甚至去找相對非常非常廉價的或便宜的勞動力，我們認為不是辦法。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:28:52.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:29:19.279000+08:00","text":"所以應該是在去年的時候，我們在行政院跟經濟部、交通部討論，至少他們應該要把用這樣子方式進來的外國籍實習生，比方他們的工資、他們相關的權益，包括可能相關該做的一些保障，尤其是薪資的部分，勞動條件應該至少要比照我們臺灣勞動法規的最低標準。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:29:20.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:29:26.085000+08:00","text":"所以應該在1月1日之後，經濟部跟交通部其實有調整了他們的……薪資？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:29:26.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:29:38.996000+08:00","text":"相關的規範，想要把它給拉起來，這部分的確我們是一步一步談，不然如果是在去年的情境，很有可能其實這一個外國實習生一個月拿到的薪資確實是非常非常低的，但是也是需要一步一步來處理的。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:29:40.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:29:57.390000+08:00","text":"好，我舉一個很簡單的例子，因為我看了一下這個實習要點，裡面一個很簡單的例子也會是您重視的，如果根據勞動保險條例，沒有對勞工投保，這個罰鍰是重的，可能從4倍到10倍都有，根據第七十二條、第三十八條。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:29:57.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:30:09.823000+08:00","text":"可是這個實習要點就像我剛剛跟你講的，它只會對實習單位做撤銷或是廢止核准函，除了薪資，我覺得他們的勞權，你未來的進度是如何？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:30:10.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:30:13.068000+08:00","text":"否則我們又會常常被冠上這種強迫勞動的惡名。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:30:14.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:30:33.392000+08:00","text":"跟陳委員說明，比方如果這個學生的學籍是在國內，學籍在國內的話，通常會分成學習型實習跟工作型實習，如果是工作型實習，其實就是比照工作……","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:30:33.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:30:35.693000+08:00","text":"你的意思是因為他學籍不在國內，所以你這邊有點困難？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:30:38.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:30:54.738000+08:00","text":"因為他的學籍不在國內，所以目前的確在現有的適法性上，他不太適用於我們目前國內的勞法規，他進來的方式是由經濟部跟交通部藉由……","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:30:54.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:31:22.047000+08:00","text":"可是經濟部投審司代理司長對外的發言，他是說過去較偏重學生身分，現在的重點則是放在勞務提供者，所以他會給予勞務提供者的相對基本保障，並且他還直接講他會不定期的與勞動部共同進行訪視，所以經濟部自己已經偏重在勞務提供者了。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:31:23.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:31:39.029000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，這是我們去跟經濟部談，現在大家才比較清楚，至少在國外學籍的實習生進來，他應該是一個比照工作形式的概念……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:31:39.029000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:31:40.029000+08:00","text":"你會覺得……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:31:39.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:31:58.599000+08:00","text":"只是在法規適法性上面，的確他目前不是直接適用勞動部這邊主管的相關法規，所以比較要從經濟部跟交通部他們訂的要點，這部分我們也一直在跟經濟部溝通，他們應該把相關標準給拉高。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:31:59.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:32:26.014000+08:00","text":"好，那我講下一個案例，這個新聞我相信你應該有看到，BBC去採訪我們的一位外籍移工，這個移工是女性，他跟其他女性工人組織了一個工會，工會成立之後，隨即他就跟其他組工會的人被非法解僱，規定他們離開產線，交回制服、員工證，一個小時內搬出宿舍，因為他們破壞和諧。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:32:26.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:32:36.861000+08:00","text":"BBC對我們的報導是非常非常……其實非常侵犯到我們國家的顏面，因為他直接說臺灣移工是囚犯式的管理，為什麼這樣描述？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:32:37.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:33:16.094000+08:00","text":"是因為他們在宿舍，女生規定一定要住，有宵禁，所以回來以後還要拍照回傳，如果你遲了或者是未歸，你就要被罰一些勞動清掃廁所等等，清掃廁所還要再存證，所以這個移工說他整個手機裡面全部都是每天打卡、清掃廁所的這些照片，公司認為這些人可能在臺灣有其他的親戚朋友，他出去就要趕著11點回來，並且被公司規定，如果在臺灣有什麼認識的人，他們的姓名、手機、地址全部都要交出來。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:33:16.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:33:26.402000+08:00","text":"這個工會的幹部也說，他們取得了內部的管理規章，如果在受僱時談戀愛、結婚、懷孕，就會受罰。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:33:27.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:33:42.353000+08:00","text":"這家公司因為歧視懷孕者，曾經被桃園市政府開罰30萬，今年勞動部也已經函請新北市勞動局依法調查，現在我只是想確認一下，你們掌握的中央調查進度如何？","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:33:43.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:34:02.497000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，這個案子是在去年下半年，因為有涉及到新北和桃園的部分，所以我們也都有請地方政府去查察，我們就是依法辦理，查察過程如果確切有違法事證，該怎麼處理就怎麼處理。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:34:02.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:34:05.099000+08:00","text":"多久之內可以看到裁罰的公函？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:34:06.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:34:33.243000+08:00","text":"就我知道，現在應該是在桃園市的檢查之下，我記得去年12月有被裁罰兩筆，一個是性工法，一個是加班工時的部分，加班工時屬勞基法，當然這個案例還有一個部分現在是進入裁決階段，就是不當勞動契約的部分，相關進度我請司長說明。","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:34:33.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:34:35.065000+08:00","text":"好，你簡單說明，大概多久以內？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王司長厚偉","start":"2026-04-09T09:34:35.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:34:39.871000+08:00","text":"大概4月份就會完成整個裁決的調查跟確定。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:34:40.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:34:41.953000+08:00","text":"好，那我們再等你的裁決公函。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:34:42.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:35:19.341000+08:00","text":"依據這個例子，我想跟部長討論一下外國人生活照顧服務計畫書裁量基準，這個基準當然是為了保護移工，包括宿舍空間大小、廁所、隱私、安全等等，相關硬體的規定比較多，但從這個案例可以看得出來，這個裁量基準其實很難規定到它所延伸出去的管理問題，比如門禁、拍照、私生活的監控、交往、懷孕等等，這些逾越人權紅線是沒有辦法藉由這個基準來規範的。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:35:20.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:35:21.442000+08:00","text":"部長認為這個基準是不是需要調整？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:35:23.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:35:39.833000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們現在的這個基準，就是這些相關子法或者相關基準，如果大家有更進一步的意見，都可以討論，但我認為我們的目標很簡單，就是應該對齊國際標準。對。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:35:40.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:36:12.885000+08:00","text":"在國際標準的範疇之下，我們當然都可以對這些相關標準進行一些檢討，因為我們也看到一個狀況，就是這些國際標準其實是越來越高，也不斷變動，大家對強迫勞動的問題越來越重視，不管是我們很多重要的貿易夥伴國家，或者很多供應鏈的品牌或進口商，他們對這部分的重視程度，包括要求標準也越來越高。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:36:13.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:36:20.728000+08:00","text":"所以針對這個部分，我們的確也需要一段時間就來檢視我們的標準跟國際標準之間有沒有落差、是不是要調整等等。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:36:21.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:36:22.889000+08:00","text":"好，那我等一下再跟你請教這個進度問題。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:36:25.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:36:38.373000+08:00","text":"剛剛你們已經都有提到，因為ART，所以2026年2月你們也發布了一個企業防制強迫勞動參考指引，但這個指引欠缺執行力更強的查核、揭露及處罰機制。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:36:38.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:36:57.921000+08:00","text":"我舉一個國健署自己統計的例子，根據國健署跟勞保局的統計，2024年有6,000名移工懷孕，但很多被聯手勸退回到母國，所以有高達78%終止契約，看在人民眼裡，這個數據正常嗎？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:36:58.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:37:00.362000+08:00","text":"你覺得這個指引真的有規範到雇主嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:37:01.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:37:27.477000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，這分幾個層次，第一個，現在ILO在強迫勞動部分有公布11項指標，我們自己也做了相關法規的檢視，認為的確有幾個項目在我們的法規上有強化的必要，比方不應該扣留移工的相關證件，這也是為什麼今天我們提出這個修法……","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:37:28.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:37:31.623000+08:00","text":"對，這個你說今天行政院院會會討論，你們預計什麼時候要完成修法？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:37:32.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:37:33.085000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會送到立法院？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:37:33.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:37:35.548000+08:00","text":"今天如果院會通過，就馬上送立法院。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:37:35.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:37:37.450000+08:00","text":"就馬上送立法院，有關扣留護照部分？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:37:38.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:37:38.451000+08:00","text":"對，就是扣留的部分。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:37:39.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:37:45.054000+08:00","text":"另外一個是包括招募費recruitment fee……仲介。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:37:45.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:38:05.307000+08:00","text":"這部分我們跟美方的承諾是三年內要用法規明定，用法規明確規定不能夠向移工收費，不然就會有抵債勞務的問題，所以這幾個部分、這幾個指標，尤其是特定的這幾個指標，確實在法規上我們認為有強化的必要。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:38:06.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:38:15.811000+08:00","text":"至於委員剛剛前面講的指引的部分，它其實是要讓我們很多企業比較知道怎麼去辨識自己目前強迫勞動的風險……","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:38:15.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:38:17.692000+08:00","text":"但是這個得靠企業的自律啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:38:18.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:38:24.593000+08:00","text":"對，但有些部分也要靠法規，可是法規的修訂是陸陸續續、一步一步進行。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:38:24.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:38:47.301000+08:00","text":"委員剛剛提到的查核、處罰，這當然都需要法規，而指引的目的……因為很多企業會跟我們說，他大概知道國際上有這個要求，可是不知道該怎麼做，不知道該怎麼去檢視相關風險，而這個指引的目的，就是要協助我們的企業先辨識風險，這樣才有辦法管理風險。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:38:50.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:39:05.186000+08:00","text":"好，那我給你三個結論，就剛剛提到的，第一，這個指引缺乏強制力，必須很仰賴自律，當然，我們有很好的企業，但也可能有不良的企業，所以很難防堵他侵害人權。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:39:05.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:39:21.496000+08:00","text":"第二，我們規定、建議的生活照顧標準裁量基準，大部分是著重在硬體，你剛剛也說會考量把它延伸到管理層面，以免它逾越了一些私人紅線像監控等等。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:39:23.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:39:28.002000+08:00","text":"第三，修訂就服法第五條及第四十條。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:39:28.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:39:36.269000+08:00","text":"關於這三點，因為你中間已經有解釋了，所以有關於指引和基準的修改，可不可以一個月內提供書面報告給我？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:39:38.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:39:48.399000+08:00","text":"我會請同仁把相關資料再跟委員說明，但我覺得一個重要的原則，就是希望能夠接軌國際的要求跟標準，這是最重要的原則。","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-04-09T09:39:48.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:39:50.021000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席、謝謝部長。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席（林委員月琴）","start":"2026-04-09T09:39:50.521000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:39:52.521000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳菁徽委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席（林委員月琴）","start":"2026-04-09T09:39:52.821000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:39:55.392429+08:00","text":"接下來請邱惠洳委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}