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請洪部長"},{"start":21.027,"end":41.384,"text":"一開始先講一些就最近觀察到的數據讓您知道2025年的工總呢他白皮書發表說最近最大的問題就是缺工我想這個你應該也都知道了那跟您比較相關的是財訊做了一個對於賴清德總統的民調那他最滿意喔"},{"start":42.185,"end":71.708,"text":"他們最滿意的政策85.6%剛好是您從前反對那就是調整非核家園這樣子的政策可是企業是很支持的那最不滿意的政策剛好也跟您相關這個就是缺工的問題有63%的企業不滿意現況那未來呢我覺得您可能常會面對到這樣子的問題啦可能每次答詢都要講這些所以未來應該也沒有什麼要迴避的地方那"},{"start":72.128,"end":95.833,"text":"我本期間只是想跟你討論說剛你有一直提到說外籍的移工或者是這篇是在講外籍的實習生那你都希望可以盡量跟本國人拉齊這你剛答詢你會請委員的那缺工就真的太嚴重所以不管是交通部經濟部教育部都引進了外籍留學生這樣子的人力"},{"start":97.233,"end":119.09,"text":"那很多委員都質詢嘛所以今年2026年1月的時候經濟部就提出了企業級法人申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點那裡面也一直強調說都有找勞動部要來稽查找勞動部給意見所以其實呢他們就是找勞動部來背書說他們有正視這些實習生的勞權那經濟部說要比照勞務的事實但這個實習要點"},{"start":125.475,"end":142.541,"text":"我不知道你有沒有注意到他其實沒有很很強烈的罰則他唯一的處罰就是說他會對實習單位撤銷或廢止實習核准函所以我想問您會覺得說這有達到您剛提到的想要跟本國人拉起這個標準嗎"},{"start":144.329,"end":168.091,"text":"跟陳委員說明其實現在在講的這個外國實習生他們的學籍現在在包括是經濟部跟交通部他們的學籍其實是在國外那是由國外的學生那國外的這個學校單位來跟來找台灣的企業來去做這樣實習的合作那在今年以前"},{"start":169.591,"end":175.103,"text":"其實這樣子的實習生他用他用這樣實習的名義其實他"},{"start":177.847,"end":204.293,"text":"有很多的包括薪資的給付包括相關的權益說實話都跟現在台灣的勞動法規是有一段落差的所以其實去年就是我們勞動部我們也去找包括經濟部包括交通部也包括行政院大家協調我們認為這樣子的做法不是個辦法因為這會讓很多企業"},{"start":205.273,"end":212.531,"text":"就會用這樣子的方式可能會繞開勞動的法規甚至去找這個相對非常非常"},{"start":214.366,"end":242.357,"text":"廉價的或便宜的這個勞動力我們認為不是辦法所以我們才在應該是在去年的時候在行政院跟經濟部跟交通部來討論至少他們應該要把這個用這樣子方式的進來的外國籍的實習生比方說他們的工資他們相關的權益包括可能相關該做的一些這個尤其是薪資的部分然後勞動條件應該至少要比照我們"},{"start":244.198,"end":263.975,"text":"臺灣勞動法規的最低的標準那所以現在是應該在1月1號之後在經濟部跟交通部其實他們有調整了他們的相關的規範想要把它給拉起來那這部分的確我們是跟一步一步談不然如果在去年的情境的話很有可能其實這一個外國行醫生他一個月拿到薪資確實是非常非常低的"},{"start":264.175,"end":290.175,"text":"那我舉一個很簡單的例子我舉一個很簡單的例子因為我看了一下這個實習要點裡面一個很簡單的例子也會是您重視的如果根據勞工保險條例沒有對勞工投保那他這個罰環是重的可能從4倍到10倍都有根據第72條第38條可是這個實習要點就像我剛剛跟你講的他只會對實習單位做撤銷或是廢止核准函"},{"start":290.675,"end":299.088,"text":"那除了薪資我覺得他們的勞權你未來的進度是如何否則我們又會常常被冠上這種強迫勞動的惡名"},{"start":300.964,"end":321.693,"text":"跟這跟陳委員說明第一個確實因為比方說如果如果這個學生他是學籍是在國內那學籍在國內的話其實通常會分成學習型實習跟工作型實習如果是工作型實習的話其實就是比較工作你的意思是說因為他學籍不在國內所以你這邊有點困難"},{"start":324.694,"end":352.401,"text":"因為他的學籍不在國內所以他不太目前的確在現有的這個司法性上他不太適用於我們目前國內的當法規但是我跟你說因為他現在是由他進來的方式是由經濟部跟交通部可是經濟部經濟部的投審代理司長他對外的發言他是說過去較偏重學生身份現在的重點則是放在勞務提供者"},{"start":353.001,"end":372.089,"text":"所以呢他會給予勞務提供者的相對基本保障並且啊他還直接講說他會不定期的與勞動部共同進行防事所以他自己經濟部他已經把他偏重在勞務提供者勒跟穆仁說明這是我們去跟經濟部談"},{"start":374.901,"end":387.891,"text":"現在大家才比較清楚至少在這個國外學籍的實習生進來他就是一個應該是比較一個工作形式只是他的法規是法性上面的確他目前不是"},{"start":392.274,"end":418.564,"text":"不是直接適用交通部這邊主管的相關法規所以比較要從經濟部跟交通部他們訂的要點那這部分我們也一直在跟經濟部溝通他們應該把這個相關的標準給拉高那我講下一個案例這個新聞我相信你應該有看到就是BBC去採訪我們的一位外籍移工那這個移工他是女性他跟其他的女性組了一個女性工人組織的工會那隨即呢"},{"start":419.184,"end":433.075,"text":"有這個工會成立之後他就跟其他組工會的人被非法解雇就規定他們說離開產線交回制服員工證一個小時內搬出宿舍因為他們破壞和諧那這個BC對我們的報導是非常不"},{"start":434.696,"end":452.166,"text":"非常其實非常侵犯到我們國家的顏面啦因為他直接說台灣移工是囚犯式的管理那為什麼這樣描述是因為他們在這個宿舍女生規定一定要住有宵禁所以呢回來以後還要拍照回傳那如果說你"},{"start":452.866,"end":464.68,"text":"遲了或者是說你未歸那你就要被罰一些勞動的清掃廁所等等清掃廁所還要再存證所以這個移工他說他整個手機裡面全部都是每天打卡或是清掃廁所這些照片那他認為啊他"},{"start":468.644,"end":492.402,"text":"如果這個在台灣如果這些人他可能有其他的親戚朋友他出去他就要趕著11點回來並且被公司規定說你在台灣有什麼認識的人姓名手機地址全部都要交出來那這個工會的幹部也說如果這個他們裡面有個內部管理的規章被他們取得如果在受僱的時候談戀愛等等結婚懷孕就會被受罰"},{"start":493.303,"end":508.373,"text":"那這一家呢他已經因為歧視懷孕者曾經被桃園市政府開罰30萬今年呢勞動部已經函請新北市勞動局依法調查那我只想確認一下您現在掌握的中央調查進度如何"},{"start":509.363,"end":531.119,"text":"跟文說明因為這個案子在去年的下半年那因為他有新北的部分有桃園的部分所以其實相關的部分我們其實都請地方政府去查查那其實我們其實都就是說就是依法辦理那如果其實在查查過程裡面確確有違法的事證的話該怎麼處理 多久之內我們可以看到這個裁罰的公函"},{"start":532.079,"end":552.716,"text":"現在就我們知道他應該是在台灣市的這個檢查下面去年12月應該有被裁罰兩筆一個是應該是一個是我記得一個是性供法一個是加班公使的部分那加班公使是勞基法那他應該當然這個這個案例裡面還有一個部分是現在進入到裁決的部分"},{"start":556.76,"end":574,"text":"那這步進度我請市長說你就簡單的講大概多久以內我們大概就四月份就會完成這個裁決的調查跟確定好那我們在等你的裁決公函那依照這個例子其實我就想跟您討論一下外國人生活照顧服務計畫書裁量基準"},{"start":574.52,"end":604.1,"text":"那這個基準當然是為了保護這些移工宿舍它規定的空間的大小這個廁所啦 隱私啦 安全啦等等的它硬體的規定比較多但您從這個案例看得出來說您這個採樣基準其實很難規定到它延伸出去的管理問題比如說門禁 拍照啊私生活的監控啊交往啊 懷孕等等的它已經逾越人權的這樣子的紅線是沒有辦法藉由這個基準"},{"start":605.341,"end":623.451,"text":"來規範的你認為這個基準是需要調整根本說沒有其實我認為我們現在的這個基準就是我們其實這些相關的執法或者相關的基準其實如果大家有更進一步相關的意見的話我認為我們的目標其實跟我們發言所目標很簡單就是我們應該對齊國際的標準"},{"start":625.833,"end":642.662,"text":"對那在這個國際的標準的這個範疇之下那我們當然都可以來對於這些相關的標準來進行一些檢討我想這個因為我們也看到一個狀況是這些國際的標準他其實也越標準也越來越高他也在變動"},{"start":644.461,"end":666.868,"text":"大家對長期活動的問題也越來越重視不管是我們很多貿易的重要的貿易夥伴國家或者是很多的供應鏈的品牌或者是進口商他們其實對這部分的重視程度包括要求標準越來越高所以我們的確也會需要針對這部分一段時間就要來檢視我們的標準跟國際的標準之間有沒有落差是不是要調整的"},{"start":667.108,"end":689.935,"text":"那我等一下再跟您請教這個進度所以因為剛剛已經你們都有提到了因為ART所以2026年2月你們也發布了一個企業防制強迫勞動參考的指引但是呢這個指引他就欠缺執行力更強的查核揭露還有處罰機制我舉一個國建署自己統計的例子國建署他跟勞保局一起統計2024年有6000名移工懷孕"},{"start":693.376,"end":706.362,"text":"但是呢被聯手勸退就回到了母國所以這高達78%是終止契約的看在人民的眼裡這個數據正常嗎所以您覺得這個指引真的有規範到雇主嗎"},{"start":707.366,"end":728.332,"text":"跟委員說明第一個這裡面會分幾個層次其實現在ILO在強迫勞動上面其實是有11項指標那我們自己其實也去做了相關的法規的檢視在法規的檢視裡面大概我們認為比方說有幾項的確我們在法規上面其實有強化的必要比方說"},{"start":729.352,"end":746.274,"text":"不應該扣留移工相關的證件這也是為什麼今天我們提出這個修法這部分這個你說今天院會會討論你們有預計什麼時候要完成修法嗎要什麼時候送到立法院今天如果院會通過就馬上送就馬上送到立法院就關於扣留護照立法院扣留的部分那另外一個部分是包括"},{"start":747.472,"end":775.569,"text":"就是招募費就是recruitment fee的部分那這的確在我們在跟美方的承諾裡面是認為是三年內要用法規來明定用法規來明確不能夠向移工來做收費不然這就會有抵債勞務的問題所以這幾個部分這幾個指標尤其特定這幾個指標確實在法規上我們認為有強化的必要那剛剛委員剛剛其實前面在講的的確指引的部分它其實比較是讓"},{"start":776.59,"end":799.776,"text":"我們很多企業比較知道第一個怎麼樣去辨識自己目前強迫勞動的風險但是這個得靠企業的自律啊對所以他有些部分他也要靠法規可是法規的修訂會部分法規修訂會陸陸續續一步一步的來修訂那我以為你剛才講的包括查核包括處罰這當然都是需要法規的那指引的目的是因為很多企業現在先來跟我們做他說"},{"start":801.256,"end":813.301,"text":"我大概知道國際上有這個要求可是我不知道該怎麼做我不知道該怎麼去檢視我的風險那這一個指引的目的是協助我們的企業先做辨識風險才有辦法管理風險"},{"start":816.24,"end":839.449,"text":"好那我給你三個結論就剛剛提到的啦這個指引他缺乏強制力還有他就是很仰賴自律那當然我們也有很好的企業但是也有可能不良的企業那很難防堵他侵害人權那第二當然是包括這個我們來規定他建議他生活照顧標準的裁量基準那大部分是著重在硬體"},{"start":840.169,"end":862.289,"text":"您剛也說您會考量把它延伸到這個管理層面以免它逾越了一些私人的紅線等等的監控那這個第三項就是修復法第五條跟第四條那這三樣因為中間您已經解釋了所以關於指引還有基準您要怎麼修改可不可以一個月提供書面報告給我"},{"start":864.071,"end":876.041,"text":"第一個我可以跟委員這邊我們請同仁這邊交換資料再說但我覺得一個重要的原則就是希望要能夠接軌國際的要求跟標準其實我覺得這是最重要的原則好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}