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雇主已經慢慢的意識到說用違約金條款來約束護理人員的離職自由 其實很容易因為它無效而約束不住所以開始改弦易策 那個腦筋就慢慢動到其他的方式 例如說留任獎金"},{"start":94.313,"end":111.651,"text":"早期會比較用違約金的方式去約束護理人員的自由那現在比較洋氣用違約金但洋氣並不是完全根絕如果完全根絕就沒有必要上次來這邊再跟部長對於違約金的事情來做交流那現在就是他們"},{"start":113.412,"end":126.878,"text":"比較傾向是用留任獎金的方式去留住護理人員的心去留住護理人員的人在職場因為畢竟留任獎金是一個鼓勵性質的手段那所以我這邊先給部長看一下這個"},{"start":128.038,"end":155.016,"text":"留任獎金的這個手段真的是已經慢慢出現在醫院要留人的方式了那這是上個禮拜的這個報導那這邊就提到說台中醫院為了留人所以呢三年祭出18萬意思就是護理人員如果能夠認滿三年就可以取得18萬的留任獎金那這個是去年12月9號的新聞那這是一個地方政府介入"},{"start":155.916,"end":173.477,"text":"在要如何去挽救護理人力的故事那台東縣政府他就宣布他投入4000萬然後呢作為這7家醫院在留任護理人員的時候給予留任獎金的一個後盾給予留任獎金的一個後盾"},{"start":174.258,"end":194.628,"text":"那這個羅東醫院是在去年的5月9號其實這就是在護師節的前夕所以護師節的前夕是會有一些放送的那我這邊提醒部長今年的護師節是5月12號那通常護師節的前夕會有放送一些東西那個什麼薪資的提升 勞動小生的改善所以我這邊先預告給部長知道還有一個月的時間可以準備看要送什麼禮物給護理人員那羅東博愛醫院他們就是"},{"start":203.593,"end":220.838,"text":"祭出了兩年12萬的留任獎金那一樣屏東縣也是在去年護士節的前夕那就說我們縣內的7家醫院趕快過來跟我喝一個大和解咖啡和解什麼呢就是你們要祭出"},{"start":221.638,"end":246.822,"text":"高的留任獎金然後跟遠離跟逃離醫界的護理師和解了不要讓他們覺得這裡很不溫暖然後都要跑到外面去工作所以我們祭出這個獎金應該是說我們號召醫院來去討論這些獎金的必要性那政府能夠給予什麼一些的資源政府會提出那所以18家醫院也從善如流"},{"start":247.042,"end":270.416,"text":"那分別祭出一萬到十萬不等的留任獎金所以我們可以從這些新聞其實都是近期的新聞然後可以看到說醫院其實他慢慢的想用一些鼓勵性的方式把護理人員留下來好那現在這就是我要請教部長一個最重要的一個層次的問題了當然給留任獎金是沒有問題的可是留任獎金的發放時間點"},{"start":273.258,"end":289.623,"text":"發放在前或發放在後可能會有不同的糾紛的呈現那我先跟部長說明一下我們舉一個具體的例子例如說有個護理師他承諾在這家醫院任滿12個月然後12個月之後他就能夠取得留任獎金3.6萬這樣子那現在是"},{"start":293.024,"end":313.595,"text":"以A情境來說好了這個護理人員他進來上班然後呢他就坐著坐著真的轉眼間坐到12月了好啊坐到12月了嘛12月就能夠有3.6萬的留院獎金所以這時候呢醫院就發3.6萬的留院獎金給他這是A情境那B情境呢是他"},{"start":314.839,"end":332.431,"text":"願意在這邊任滿12個月那當然也要領到3.6萬的獎金但是僱主的發放時間點是在他就職的時候就給他就職只是就職第一天所以意味著你先把錢拿進放在你的口袋了但是未來12個月你要好好在這邊跟我們工作"},{"start":334.873,"end":362.972,"text":"那前面那種借其認滿所給予的留任獎金比較沒有爭議但是後面這個預付性的留任獎金會有一個問題什麼問題呢你答應人家做滿12個月但是錢也已經進你的口袋了啊但是呢你做不滿12個月你再11個月就離職了那現在請問放進去你口袋那一筆三萬六你要全部退出來還給雇主還是要部分退出來還給雇主"},{"start":368.356,"end":388.334,"text":"這個委員這其實就我知道可能有一些進到法院的訴訟啦那這可能的確也會有這個法官對這事情比方說也許也許會有些法官會認為是案比例或者是什麼我覺得可能要進入到各不同的個案的我們等一下就看個案好等一下就看個案那我們看一下"},{"start":389.395,"end":407.71,"text":"你說進入法官的審判階段我覺得當然程序會進入那邊但是前提就是說你有沒有法律可以給法官認識用法的時候去試用我的第一個問題就是他會進入訴訟訴訟進去之後法官也是依照勞基法第幾條認識"},{"start":409.631,"end":425.738,"text":"認定事實然後適用法律進而去得出一個結論那所以你要有法條你要有法律給法官去適用啊那問題這個就是有我要問你問部長的就是說請問勞基法幾十條當中有沒有一條是在規範留任獎金的"},{"start":429.115,"end":454.22,"text":"方委員我們上次討論文言執教的那個服務年限也是一樣有兩種邏輯第一種邏輯就是給你訓練第二邏輯就是說給你一筆簽約金也是在那個條文的範圍裡面也會經過那些條文的來考量有沒有限制的必要然後還有那個金額跟你要返還的金額的比例有沒有相當一樣有那個合理性的必要性的審視一樣那個條文可以適用"},{"start":455.97,"end":473.744,"text":"喔 我知道你在講什麼嘛因為那個有兩個情境嘛一個情境就是給訓練費用一個條文就是給補償可是那個是違約金的概念啊那個是違約金的概念那個是違約金的概念可是這個是留任獎金的概念啊"},{"start":474.662,"end":487.882,"text":"各位報告我們有認為這筆錢就是等於說他希望給你的邀約希望你服務滿一定的期限如果你沒有滿足你應該要等於你違約所以那個違約金的概念跟這個服務年限跟這筆錢是類似"},{"start":490.586,"end":511.608,"text":"我覺得違約金條款有兩種情境一種是給你錢讓你變成不可替代的人選嘛然後另外一個就是說可能給你一些補助給你一些補助可是那個就是違約金的概念所以你們覺得這裡的留任獎金是違約金的概念所以你們覺得可以"},{"start":512.489,"end":527.711,"text":"如果留任獎金是違約金的概念因為那裡是寫補償或補助兩個字啊那有些人不會聯想到說是一個留任獎金啊所以如果你們真的這樣認為真的可不可以給一個行政函式你要給一個行政函式"},{"start":528.672,"end":550.483,"text":"那個我覺得這是讓我們回去真的這個意思因為這當然已經進入到很多的細節了那甚至一些個案的情境這事情讓我們回去研議一下好不好好沒問題好我們一個月的時間給委員沒有問題好那我先接著當然你們要研議那我這邊的資料也有一些可以讓你們參考的其實要返還全部或返還部分呢實務有兩個見解這兩個見解是分題的第一個見解呢是這個護理人員他拿了三萬六"},{"start":557.247,"end":574.035,"text":"他答應要做兩年他沒有做到兩年那他就要把這三萬六都返還回去即使他已經做了11個月了就他承諾要做12個月那即使他已經做了11個月了但是他這筆三萬六就是要全部的返還這是A見解就是A見解那A見解他"},{"start":576.576,"end":603.922,"text":"直接的法律基礎是什麼就是我們的那個民法99條嘛這是附有解除條件的法律行為如果解除條件成就什麼叫解除條件成就就是離職離職這件事發生了所以你跟人家簽的留任獎金已經是無效了那既然無效你在你的口袋當中有3.6萬這筆錢就是一個不當得利所以你要返還給雇主所以全部要返還這個是A見解那B見解的部分呢就是B見解"},{"start":604.742,"end":605.664,"text":"就是法官覺得說這筆錢不失為違約金的"},{"start":612.472,"end":637.995,"text":"性質不失為違約金的性質好那現在要請護理人員把三萬六發回去就是一個違約金的概念但是呢整個三萬六要還回去對護理人員來說也不公平因為12個月他已經做了11個月了所以其實他已經履行了12分之11的約了他唯一沒有履行的是12分之1那一塊所以法官就覺得說好你既然這個我們把他"},{"start":639.076,"end":666.286,"text":"定性成他是一個違約金那違約金條款有酌減的條款就明法252嘛所以他就用252來把他應該還回去的三萬六進行酌減那酌減到三千那為什麼會從三萬六要酌減到三千是因為未滿日數的比例就是十二分之一所以你只要把三萬六的十二分之一的錢拿出來就可以了所以法官在見解這是"},{"start":667.186,"end":692.038,"text":"B見解法官所持的見解那我當然這邊就有一個案例其實我這個案例是真實的發生的那情境也是一模一樣他這個護理師他就是要承諾任滿12個月然後可以得到留任獎金3.6個月結果他任職11個月他就走了他就走了那現在醫院提告要請他返還那36000那最後法官怎麼判法官就是用B見解"},{"start":693.995,"end":709.95,"text":"畢竟也就是說你拿的那三萬六不思維違約金的性質那如同我剛說的你要叫護理人員把三萬六都拿出來還給醫院好像對護理人員也不公平因為護理人員雖然承諾要做12個月可是他已經做了12分"},{"start":710.971,"end":737.242,"text":"支11的提成了嘛對不對所以呢他只剩下12分之1沒做那我們是不是就針對那12分之1請他要把違約金給返還回去所以這個概念呢就會衍生出說就像部長您剛開始講1比例返還那1比例返還的一個背後的思維就來自於這樣的一個邏輯的還有運作所以我這邊有提到說衛生門"},{"start":739.603,"end":753.951,"text":"這個判決等於是告訴我們一個定卯神爭的一個概念就是未認滿日數就是依未認滿日數的比例返還那我這邊要給部長一個建議就是說"},{"start":754.811,"end":771.271,"text":"到底是不是違約金你們要回去想清楚因為判決說判決也沒有認為他是一個違約金只認為說他不思維違約金不思維違約金有違約金的那種感覺那我覺得法官是不是在認識用法的時候他也沒有一條法律"},{"start":771.812,"end":786.208,"text":"可以好好的來使用貼切的法律百分之百貼切的法律可以來使用所以他就這裡東接一個A概念那裡B接一個法律概念所以我這邊建議說是不是對這種預付性的留任獎金可以來立法那我這邊有個"},{"start":787.089,"end":814.928,"text":"草案可以給勞動部參考就是預付性的留任獎金勞工在任職屆滿前離職留任獎金僅需按未任滿日數之比例返還這個就是白紙黑字如果你有白紙黑字你不用再進去法院攻防然後呢你遇到A法官可能他會出現A見解你遇到B法官他可能會出現B見解所以我覺得我們的條文如果明確化可能不管是對勞工的角度或對整個職場運作的角度會比較順遂那當然"},{"start":817.009,"end":838.588,"text":"就要有相對應的罰則,就是說如果這個情形是要依比例返還,僱主卻要叫你全額返還,那可能也要有一些相對應的罰則那第二個建議就是說,這個這個概念上禮拜我也跟部長說過了,就是建議過有一個機構與人員勞動契約建議應記載跟不得記載事項的這份文件,那其實如果"},{"start":839.269,"end":859.009,"text":"像這種預付性的留任獎金因為雇主來跟你要其實都是要全部他不會在薪人後給你只要什麼十二分之一三千塊那是不是這個因記載事項就要寫說如果是預付性的留任獎金護理人員他在借滿錢離職留任獎金僅需按未滿日數的比例返還這個部長不知道認同嗎"},{"start":864.251,"end":885.264,"text":"跟委員說明第一個是這個因為這個醫療機構跟相關醫護人員的勞動企業的部分應濟財不得積載食箱這當然是在臥福部處理那我想我們針對剛剛其實委員講的這個議題我們會來做一個研議那剛剛講我們大概一個月的時間我可以跟委員說一個月的時間"},{"start":886.184,"end":897.125,"text":"那如果當然我們研議的結論是如何當然就也要送送到給衛福部來去做相關的的的參考好OK謝謝好好那呃"},{"start":900.188,"end":925.433,"text":"我也是到了尾聲了到了尾聲就是想要跟部長這邊再做一個確認第一個就是說可不可以提供給我們獎金因為也許留任獎金目前沒有裁罰機制那如果沒有裁罰機制的話你們有沒有輔導機制因為現在留任獎金似乎是醫院他使出要留任護理人員的一個常用的手段所以我們有一些留任獎金糾紛的資料可以提供"},{"start":927.554,"end":954.313,"text":"那個委員因為現在你剛講的這個輔導部分我覺得我們可能還是要找衛福部這邊來討論因為如果要有相關那邊沒有資料嗎你說哪一個部分的資料留任獎金糾紛的資料所以我說剛才跟委員說我們會先檢視一下目前其實有的一些個案的狀況跟他的樣態情境包括剛剛委員說的可能法官的見解包括他對法官的見解上他有沒有他其實不同的脈絡的條件因為如果只單純"},{"start":956.715,"end":973.905,"text":"看這部分他不一定資訊很完整那把這些相關判斷以後我們其實做一個研議那這研議那當然一定是要把這個這樣子的研議的我們的判斷跟思考要送到要給衛福部這邊做參考那包括後面講的輔導也什麼的是不是應該我認為都要找衛福部一起來討論"},{"start":974.745,"end":998.462,"text":"沒有問題就是建立跨部會的平台才能有效率的解決問題那第二點您剛也提到了就是那個關於應記載跟不得記載事項我想這個也是要找衛福部來一起來確認然後勞基法我建議能夠有一條修法但你們要待會去研議那我再進一步的講說如果真的你們覺得用法律的層次來把這件事講清楚沒那麼快"},{"start":999.383,"end":1015.091,"text":"沒那麼快短期目標是不是先給個行政函式那當然你要一步到位直接就把法修好我覺得我也樂觀其成那可如果沒有辦法一步到位還要再那個慢慢的去思考那是不是短過渡期間短期目標是不是有一個行政函式這樣"},{"start":1016.091,"end":1042.881,"text":"我自己是認為就委員剛才講的話我們應該在這些個案去做一點盤整梳理以後我也認為應該要給一個比較穩定的見解這個穩定的見解要用哪些方式這部分我們可以帶來看但是我也覺得有一個相對穩定的見解那對於讓我們的醫護人員跟這個醫療院所其實比較有一個明確的方向怎麼來去思考跟盤整我覺得這也是會比較好的"},{"start":1043.302,"end":1052.718,"text":"好好謝謝部長那我們就一個月後就等待您的這個回覆謝謝好謝謝邱惠如委員發言接下來請王玉明委員發言"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:40:12.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:40:17.826000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員、各位政府部門同仁，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:40:18.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:40:19.089000+08:00","text":"有請洪部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T09:40:19.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:40:19.589000+08:00","text":"請洪部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:40:26.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:40:26.997000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:40:27.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:40:27.637000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:40:29.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:40:38.340000+08:00","text":"部長，我上次在這裡質詢你的議題是有關違約金問題，這次我想跟你就教的是留任獎金的問題。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:40:39.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:40:58.714000+08:00","text":"我想部長跟我一樣，對於違約金條款的相關規範，應該有一些基本了解，就是醫院為了留住護理人員，不想讓護理人員任意離職，所以祭出違約金條款來約束護理人員的離職自由。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:40:59.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:41:10.540000+08:00","text":"但是這個違約金條款要經過必要性跟合理性的檢驗，才能夠知道是不是有效的違約金條款，如果是無效的，就沒有辦法約束護理人員的自由。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:41:11.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:41:33.092000+08:00","text":"也許是這幾年勞權意識抬頭，雇主已經慢慢意識到用違約金條款來約束護理人員的離職自由，其實很容易因為無效而約束不住，所以開始改弦易轍，腦筋慢慢動到其他方式，例如留任獎金。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:41:34.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:41:49.369000+08:00","text":"早期會比較用違約金的方式去約束護理人員的自由，現在比較揚棄用違約金，但揚棄並不是完全根絕，如果完全根絕，上次我也就沒有必要來這邊跟部長交流違約金條款的問題。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:41:51.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:42:04.016000+08:00","text":"現在他們比較傾向用留任獎金的方式去留住護理人員的心，讓護理人員留在職場，畢竟留任獎金是一個鼓勵性質的手段。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:42:08.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:42:28.611000+08:00","text":"其實留任獎金的這個手段，真的已經慢慢出現成為醫院的留人方式，這是上個禮拜媒體的報導，臺中醫院為了留人，祭出三年18萬獎金，意思就是護理人員如果任滿三年，就可以取得18萬留任獎金。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:42:29.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:43:02.022000+08:00","text":"另外這是去年12月9號的新聞，是有關一個地方政府介入如何挽救護理人力的故事，臺東縣政府宣布投入4,000萬作為7家醫院留任護理人員時給予留任獎金的後盾；羅東醫院是去年5月9號，其實就是在護師節前夕，在護師節前夕是會有一些放送的。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:43:02.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:43:14.388000+08:00","text":"我在這邊提醒部長，今年的護師節是5月12號，通常在護師節前夕會放送一些東西，例如薪資的提升、勞動條件的改善，所以我先預告讓部長知道，你們還有一個月的時間可以準備，看要送什麼禮物給護理人員。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:43:14.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:43:39.177000+08:00","text":"羅東博愛醫院就是祭出了兩年12萬的留任獎金，同樣的，屏東縣也是在去年護師節前夕找縣內的23家醫院趕快過來一起喝大和解咖啡，和解什麼呢？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:43:39.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:44:03.298000+08:00","text":"就是他們要祭出高額留任獎金，然後跟逃離醫界的護理師和解，不要讓他們覺得這裡很不溫暖然後都要跑到外面去工作，所以就祭出這個獎金，應該是我們號召醫院來討論這些獎金的必要性，看政府能夠給予什麼資源，政府會提出來。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:44:04.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:44:09.984000+08:00","text":"所以18家醫院也從善如流，分別祭出1萬到10萬金額不等的留任獎金。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:44:10.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:44:37.940000+08:00","text":"我們可以從這些近期的新聞看到醫院其實慢慢的想用一些鼓勵性的方式把護理人員留下來，現在我要請教部長一個最重要層次的問題，當然給留任獎金是沒有問題的，問題是留任獎金發放的時間點，發放在前或發放在後可能會產生不同的糾紛。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:44:38.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:45:11.053000+08:00","text":"我先跟部長說明一下，我們舉一個具體的例子，例如說，有一個護理師承諾在這家醫院任滿12個月，在12個月之後他就能夠取得留任獎金3.6萬，以A情境來說，這個護理人員進來上班，他做著做著轉眼間真的做了12個月了，做到12個月就能夠有3.6萬的留任獎金，所以在這時候醫院就發3.6萬的留任獎金給他，這是A情境。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:45:12.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:45:32.411000+08:00","text":"B情境是他願意在這邊任滿12個月，當然也要領到3.6萬的獎金，但是雇主的發放時間點是在他就職的時候就給他，就是在他就職第一天先把錢放進口袋了，在未來12個月就要好好在這邊為我們工作。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:45:35.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:45:45.460000+08:00","text":"像前面那一種屆期任滿所給予的留任獎金比較沒有爭議，但是後面這個預付性的留任獎金會有一個問題，有什麼問題呢？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:45:45.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:46:02.952000+08:00","text":"你答應人家做滿12個月，錢也已經進你的口袋了，但是你做不滿12個月，你做11個月就離職了，請問你放進口袋的那筆3.6萬是要全部退還給雇主還是要部分退還給雇主？","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:46:08.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:46:24.771000+08:00","text":"委員，就我所知，其實可能會有一些到法院進行訴訟，也許有一些法官會認為是按比例或者怎麼樣，我覺得可能要進入各個不同個案的訴訟裡面……","quality":0.729},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:46:24.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:46:25.872000+08:00","text":"好，我們等一下就來看個案。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:46:29.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:46:41.705000+08:00","text":"你說進入法官的審判階段，我覺得當然程序會進到那邊，但是前提就是你有沒有法律可以讓法官在認事用法的時候去適用？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:46:42.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:46:57.134000+08:00","text":"這是我的第一個問題，就是會進入訴訟，在開始進行訴訟之後，法官也是依照勞基法的條文認定事實、適用法律，進而得出一個結論，所以你要有法條讓法官去適用啊！","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:46:58.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:47:05.498000+08:00","text":"這個就是我要問部長的問題，請問在勞基法幾十個條文當中有沒有一個條文是在規範留任獎金？","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"王司長厚偉","start":"2026-04-09T09:47:09.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:47:34.200000+08:00","text":"報告委員，上次委員指教的服務年限，也是一樣有兩種邏輯：第一個邏輯就是給你訓練；第二個邏輯就是給你一筆簽約金，也是在那個條文的範圍裡面，會根據那些條文的規定來考量，看有沒有限制的必要，還有那個金額跟你要返還金額的比例有沒有相當，一樣有合理性跟必要性的審視，那個條文一樣可以適用。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:47:37.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:47:45.758000+08:00","text":"我知道你在講什麼，因為會有兩個情境，一個情境就是給訓練費用，另外一個就是給補償。對。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:47:45.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:47:53.523000+08:00","text":"可是那個是違約金的概念，而這個是留任獎金的概念。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"王司長厚偉","start":"2026-04-09T09:47:54.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:48:07.862000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們認為這筆錢等於是對你的要約，希望你服務滿一定的期限，如果你沒有做滿，等於你違約，所以那個違約金的概念跟這個服務年限、跟這筆錢是類似的。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:48:10.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:48:29.866000+08:00","text":"我覺得違約金條款有兩種情境，一種是給你錢，讓你變成不可替代的人選，另外一個就是可能給你一些補助，可是那個就是違約金的概念，所以你們覺得這裡的留任獎金是違約金的概念？對。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:48:30.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:48:45.387000+08:00","text":"所以你們覺得可以，如果留任獎金是違約金的概念，因為那裡是寫補償或補助，但有些人不會聯想到這是留任獎金，如果你們真的是這樣認為，可不可以給一個行政函釋？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:48:46.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:48:47.430000+08:00","text":"你要給一個行政函釋。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:48:50.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:48:59.418000+08:00","text":"委員，請讓我們回去針對這個議題進行研議，這當然已經進入很多細節的討論了，甚至一些個案的情境，這個事情讓我們回去研議一下好不好？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:48:59.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:49:00.018000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:49:00.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:49:01.819000+08:00","text":"給我們一個月的時間，然後我們再向委員回復。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:49:01.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:49:06.882000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，你們要研議，我這邊也有一些資料可以讓你們參考。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:49:07.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:49:33.034000+08:00","text":"其實要返還全部或返還部分在實務上有兩個見解，這兩個見解是分歧的，第一個見解是這個護理人員拿了三萬六，他答應要做兩年，他沒有做到兩年，他就要把三萬六都返還回去，即使他已經做了11個月，他有承諾要做12個月，即使他已經做了11個月，這筆三萬六就是要全部的返還，這是A見解。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:49:33.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:49:38.716000+08:00","text":"A見解植基的法律基礎是什麼？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:49:38.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:49:46.578000+08:00","text":"就是我們民法的第九十九條，這是附有解除條件的法律行為，如果解除條件成就了，什麼叫解除條件成就？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:49:46.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:49:48.199000+08:00","text":"就是離職。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:49:48.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:50:01.481000+08:00","text":"因為離職這件事發生了，所以你跟人家簽的留任獎金已經無效，既然無效，你口袋中的3.6萬這筆錢就是不當得利，你應該要返還給雇主，所以全部要返還，這個是A見解。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:50:03.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:50:54.402000+08:00","text":"B見解就是法官覺得這一筆錢不失為違約金的性質，現在要請護理人員把三萬六還回去，就是一個違約金的概念，但是如果整筆三萬六都要還回去，對護理人員來說也不公平，因為講好要做12個月，他已經做了11個月，已經履行了十二分之十一的約了，他唯一沒有履行的是十二分之一那一塊，法官把它定性為違約金，那違約金有酌減的規定，就是民法第二百五十二條，所以法官就用民法第二百五十二條針對應該還回去的三萬六予以酌減，減到3,000，為什麼會從三萬六減到3,000？","quality":0.751},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:50:55.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:51:08.947000+08:00","text":"就是因為未滿日數的比例是十二分之一，所以你只要把三萬六的十二分之一拿出來還就可以了，這是法官所持的B見解。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:51:09.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:51:30.297000+08:00","text":"我這邊就有一個真實發生的案例，情境也是一模一樣，這個護理師就是承諾要任滿12個月，然後可以得到留任獎金3.6萬，結果他只任職11個月就走了，現在醫院提告要請他返還那筆三萬六，最後法官怎麼判？","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:51:30.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:51:39.020000+08:00","text":"法官就是用B見解，B見解就是認為你拿的那筆三萬六不失為違約金的性質。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:51:39.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:51:54.172000+08:00","text":"如同我剛剛說的，你要叫護理人員把三萬六都拿出來還給醫院，好像對護理人員也不公平，因為護理人員雖然承諾要做12個月，可是他已經做了十二分之十一的期程了，對不對？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:51:54.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:52:02.736000+08:00","text":"所以他只剩下十二分之一沒做，那我們是不是就針對那十二分之一請他要把違約金返還給醫院？","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:52:03.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:52:30.949000+08:00","text":"所以這個概念就像部長剛剛開始講的依比例返還，依比例返還背後的思維就是來自於這樣邏輯的運作，這個判決等於是告訴我們一個定錨神針的概念，就是依未任滿日數的比例返還。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:52:31.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:52:47.827000+08:00","text":"我在這邊要給部長一個建議，就是你們要回去想清楚這到底是不是違約金，因為判決也沒有認為它是違約金，只說它不失為違約金，有違約金的那種感覺。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:52:47.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:53:00.742000+08:00","text":"我覺得法官是不是在認事用法的時候也沒有一個百分之百貼切的法律條文可以好好的來使用，所以他就這裡東借一個A法律概念，那裡西借一個B法律概念。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:53:01.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:53:05.608000+08:00","text":"所以我建議針對這種預付性留任獎金是不是可以立法？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:53:05.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:53:28.223000+08:00","text":"我這邊有個草案可以給勞動部參考，預付性留任獎金，勞工於任期屆滿前離職，留任獎金僅須按未任滿日數之比例返還，這個就是白紙黑字，如果有白紙黑字，你就不用再進去法院攻防，然後遇到A法官，可能會出現A見解；遇到B法官，可能會出現B見解。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:53:28.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:53:45.537000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得我們的條文如果明確化，不管是對勞工的角度或整個職場運作的角度會比較順遂，當然就要有相對應的罰則，如果這個情形是要依比例返還，雇主卻要叫你全額返還，可能也要有一些相對應的罰則。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:53:45.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:54:18.889000+08:00","text":"第二個建議，這個概念上禮拜我也跟部長建議過，有一個醫療機構與護理人員勞動契約建議應記載及不得記載事項的這份文件，像這種預付性留任獎金，因為雇主來跟你要其實都是要全部，他不會宅心仁厚跟你只要十二分之一、3,000塊，應記載事項是不是就要載明如果是預付性留任獎金，護理人員在屆滿前離職，留任獎金僅需按未滿日數的比例返還？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:54:18.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:54:19.009000+08:00","text":"不知道部長認同嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:54:24.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:54:44.343000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個，因為醫療機構與相關醫護人員勞動契約的部分，應記載及不得記載事項是衛福部在處理，其實針對剛剛委員講的這個議題，我們會來做研議，我剛剛跟委員講大概一個月的時間。OK！","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:54:46.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:54:55.041000+08:00","text":"當然我們研議的結論如何，也要送衛福部這邊作為相關參考。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:54:56.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:55:14.171000+08:00","text":"了解，謝謝，我們也是到了尾聲了，我想要跟部長這邊再做確認，第一個，可不可以提供給我們獎金，因為也許留任獎金目前沒有裁罰機制，如果沒有裁罰機制的話，你們有沒有輔導機制？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:55:14.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:55:25.413000+08:00","text":"因為現在留任獎金似乎是醫院使出留任護理人員的常用手段，所以有沒有一些留任獎金糾紛的資料可以提供？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:55:28.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:55:32.958000+08:00","text":"委員，因為你剛才講的輔導部分，我覺得我們可能還是要找衛福部這邊來討論。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:55:34.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:55:35.900000+08:00","text":"你們那邊沒有資料嗎？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:55:36.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:55:36.801000+08:00","text":"哪一個部分的資料？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:55:36.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:55:38.862000+08:00","text":"留任獎金糾紛的資料。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:55:39.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:56:13.905000+08:00","text":"所以我剛才跟委員說，我們會先檢視一下目前有的個案狀況及樣態情境，包括剛剛委員說的，在法官的見解上有沒有不同的脈絡條件，因為如果只單純看這個部分資訊不一定很完整，我們把這些相關的狀況判斷以後再做研議，之後再把我們的判斷和思考送到衛福部作為參考，包括後面講的輔導，我認為都要找衛福部一起來討論。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:56:14.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:56:19.589000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，就是建立跨部會的平臺，才能有效率的解決問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:56:20.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:56:31.818000+08:00","text":"第二點，你剛剛也提到了，關於應記載及不得記載事項，也是要找衛福部一起來確認，我建議勞基法有一條能夠修法，你們要帶回去研議。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:56:32.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:56:42.204000+08:00","text":"我再進一步地講，如果你們真的覺得用法律層次來把這件事講清楚沒那麼快，短期目標是不是先給個行政函釋？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:56:43.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:56:55.051000+08:00","text":"當然，你要一步到位直接就把法修好，我也樂觀其成，如果沒有辦法一步到位，還要再慢慢思考，過渡期間、短期目標是不是有一個行政函釋？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:56:57.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:57:10.076000+08:00","text":"就委員剛才講的，我自己是認為我們應該就這些個案做盤整梳理，要給一個比較穩定的見解，這個穩定的見解要用哪些方式，這部分我們可以再來看。","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:57:10.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:57:22.861000+08:00","text":"但是我覺得有一個相對穩定的見解，其實對於我們的醫護人員跟醫療院所也有一個比較明確的方向，怎麼思考和判斷，我覺得這也是會比較好的。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-09T09:57:23.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:57:29.652000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長，我們就一個月後等待你的回復。謝謝。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T09:57:30.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:57:31.295000+08:00","text":"謝謝邱慧洳委員發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T09:57:31.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:57:32.698000+08:00","text":"接下來請王育敏委員發言。","quality":0.818}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}