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如果今天行政院這一個法案通過之後第一個問題我要請教部長的就是因為根據ILO它的強迫勞動指標有11項那你這一次的修法在這11項當中你可以改善的事項有幾項按照行政院你們現在送出來的版本"},{"start":89.499,"end":115.504,"text":"這次行政院的版本主要是針對留置證件的這一項所以是11項之一對只有一項這次是針對留置證件的部分那太少了吧11項只改善一項那請問我們這樣子對於美國的301條款我們他如果啟動調查的話11項我們只有針對那個身份證扣留相關證件扣留這一項另外那10項怎麼辦一樣違反嗎"},{"start":117.504,"end":138.904,"text":"跟我的說明並不是這樣子的其實它的11項裡面其實我們也都有梳理它其實有對應相關的我們目前既有的法規那有一些比方對應救福法有一些是對應勞基法比方工時的問題對應的是勞基法那可能有一些救福法也會有一些是性供法好那我問你你全部盤點包括今天行政院要通過的這重要的關鍵指標這11項你可以改善幾項"},{"start":143.782,"end":164.35,"text":"我先跟委員說明我們自己在相關的法規盤點之後我們認為在法規強度上確實有改善的必要的有幾個第一個就是剛才講到留置證件的部分再來一個就是關於抵債勞務的部分抵債勞務有在這次的修法裡面嗎抵債勞務沒有在這次的修法那為什麼不放進去因為抵債勞務這部分我們跟美方的承諾是承諾三年內"},{"start":166.431,"end":186.089,"text":"會針對這個招募費的部分在製造業跟餘老業會要來以法規的方式來修訂所以美方有同意我們三年內改善三年內不追究嗎但是如果有的話為什麼這一次巨大還是發生這麼嚴重的他的這個產品被扣留的跟我們說明第一個一個部分是個案一個部分是同案"},{"start":186.77,"end":207.315,"text":"那巨大的部分當然巨大公司其實這段時間他也很積極的改善那我們當然政府的部分我們是針對通案的部分來進行所以剛才講的三年內要來以法規禁止向移工收取招募費跟相關費用這部分尤其是在製造業跟漁勞業部分這是我們跟美方討論好有共識的承諾事項"},{"start":208.22,"end":223.236,"text":"那這個為什麼你的速度沒有辦法再加快因為這一個禁止招募費這一個項目抵債勞務事實上是ILO它在強迫勞動禁止強迫勞動裡面非常關鍵的一個我給這個部長看一個數據"},{"start":224.837,"end":239.61,"text":"這個是國際調查的記者他們調查的這個你們可以回應2019年他的調查他顯示大概有高達66.7%的移工需要借貸支付仲介費"},{"start":240.971,"end":260.636,"text":"這一個部分第一個我請教勞動部你有沒有最新的調查這個數據有沒有下降第二個如果情況是這麼嚴重的話事實上這個禁止招募費應該是非常關鍵的為什麼不要在這一次的修法裡面既然又要修了我覺得為什麼不要直接把它放進去一併來處理的"},{"start":263.757,"end":281.82,"text":"在我們的知音裡面就是二月剛出爐的知音裡面其實我們認為抵債務是很關鍵的部分那確實現在的聘僱模式其實是台灣從90年代開放移工聘僱以來其實累積下來的一個聘僱的模式那"},{"start":282.981,"end":299.162,"text":"我也跟委員坦承因為確實台灣其實大概有九成的移工的聘僱其實是在中小企業所以我們第一個我們是認同這個方向必須改善可是也因為這裡面其實涉及到真的蠻多的中小企業那要讓中小企業可能會需要讓他們有一點調適期"},{"start":301.204,"end":317.679,"text":"所以我並不是三年後才來處理是我們現在從指引到宣導甚至各種制度上面包括接下來的仲介評鑑都必須相關的修訂把這個聘僱的模式就是公平招募聘僱的模式一步一步的去引導比較朝向現在國際上面要求的狀況好"},{"start":319,"end":341.305,"text":"這個其實已經到了關鍵時刻了你剛剛特別提到評鑑我就要問你那這個你的評鑑制度你要改哪一些關鍵性的內容因為如果你對於這些人力中介公司你在評鑑上面你沒有辦法有一個好的鑑別力你沒有一個好的強制性的評鑑指標事實上你不會有任何改變的是 所以我說"},{"start":342.789,"end":371.596,"text":"評鑑對於人力重建的評鑑所以你的重點你要改變哪些包括要把你如果今天回答不出來我希望你們就是把一個報告給你可不可以重點告訴大家可以可以就是我們要把公平招募的概念放到變成是其中的評鑑指標甚至要那你現在持續你沒有禁止招募費啊你這邊會有衝突的你知道嗎跟文說明第一個事情是因為法規的禁止我剛才說三年要處理這件事情對那你評鑑要先行嗎評鑑當然要先改"},{"start":372.296,"end":391.885,"text":"好所以就是說如果有這個高額招募費的高額仲介費的他就不可能成為是A級的人力仲介公司我們現在在這個評鑑裡面當然現在我們還在細部上面去做這些評估跟規劃可是評鑑的確一定不可能是三年後評鑑一定是這段時間你預計什麼時候上路你行修正的這個評鑑制度"},{"start":395.307,"end":414.867,"text":"我們現在評鑑的內容我們現在還在研議這部分其實法案組很密切在研議但我們也希望能夠盡快然後哪一些評鑑能夠讓公平招募在評鑑裡面具有鑑別性這是重點那你預計什麼時候 要個期程吧"},{"start":415.287,"end":430.426,"text":"我們是至少是希望今年我們可以處理然後明年是不是可以上路明年正式上路今年修改指標明年正式上路我們現在在研議這個相關的指標好我希望這一個事情你如果沒有做一個關鍵性的改變"},{"start":432.088,"end":444.562,"text":"事實上這些現象是不會消失的因為修法速度慢那你如果要憑鑑先行你就要有一個強制的指標接下來我要問你就是你另外一個提到就是職聘職聘的部分也是現在一個很大的問題事實上"},{"start":447.005,"end":475.812,"text":"我們在講這些大額的中介費等等有另外一個你可以幫中小企業拚的管道就是職聘制度你怎麼讓他更便利化你怎麼讓這些職聘可以省下一方面移工省下費用一方面雇主這邊也一樣可以省下費用但是我看到你現在的這個職聘制度你現在有三大問題第一個就是你的程序是非常繁瑣的有很多民眾他也想要自己拼但是程序繁瑣他有的只是勾錯欄位就被推薦"},{"start":476.792,"end":497.205,"text":"他哪有那個美國時間就是一直去跑你的職聘中心然後跑到一半之後放棄了然後還是回頭找中介公司這個程序繁瑣的問題我覺得你們到現在沒有改善第二個職聘服務中心過去其實從九處然後縮減到成一處然後你再從去年到今年再增加到變三處"},{"start":498.766,"end":526.047,"text":"這個是一個雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題你整個行政的程序沒有改善你沒有一個更友善的更便捷的措施所以你的量就很少量很少你回過頭來你就是裁測了這一些職聘服務中心然後又更不便利了所以又更少了那這個就是一個惡性循環就變成現在這樣一個情況所以你的職聘比例現在非常的低啊你現在整體的比例你企業的部分不到3%吧"},{"start":527.13,"end":544.4,"text":"根本說明第一個其實在強化職聘裡面是我們現在一個非常重要的工作目標裡面其中有幾個做法第一個部分是要把職聘的服務中心的這個個數的這個數目給增加你要增加到多少過去是九處"},{"start":544.96,"end":572.925,"text":"接下來到中部跟南部也會設但更重要的部分其實是剛剛委員其實有講到行政很煩我們目前其實也在檢討因為我們有很多在聘僱流程裡面的要求跟行政上面的關卡點我們也希望能夠把它給簡化那這個簡化的部分我們也正在跟相關部會正在談因為裡面比方有些部會設計那個部長有我提醒你因為你上任部長之前"},{"start":574.266,"end":589.858,"text":"委員會曾經就去參觀過你們職聘中心當時也有要求行政流程應該要再更便捷他們也說好啊好到現在你現在接了部長之後還是很繁瑣所以你們這個改變的速度非常的緩慢跟我說明齁其實"},{"start":592.32,"end":612.668,"text":"關於整個聘僱流程的簡化其實現在番薯是非常非常大量在檢討中裡面的功像其實是蠻多的概念就是像剛剛委員說的一樣這也是大家在講的當他的程序很繁瑣的時候僱主要自己來辦的時候他遇到的行政成本就會很高"},{"start":614.088,"end":635.36,"text":"那所以這裡面會有幾個部分剛才講說職聘的點要增加再來是流程要簡化再來一個部分也很重要因為職聘他會要談的是國對國的這個選工所以我們其實也要針對國對國的選工來增加跟來源國的商議希望能夠在國對國的選工裡面來源國給的這個勞動的這個移工的人數的供給希望能夠更穩定是"},{"start":641.963,"end":663.569,"text":"這也是為什麼我們其實在今年的公務預算裡面其實有編列演覽中心跨國演覽中心就是希望有更多可以跟來源母國談國對國的這個公益的點可是跟我們說明這部分我們其實編列相關預算需要預算的通過"},{"start":665.254,"end":692.082,"text":"會 預算一定會通過 對但是重點是我們做不出來到底那個流程應該要怎麼簡化怎麼會開會討論了兩年多了還是檢討不出來剛剛說這幾件事情都必須同時進行這個點要增加 流程要簡化國對國的這樣子的因為你們昨天才出了一個新聞稿我覺得很好啊你告訴民眾說自己去直拼可以省兩萬六"},{"start":693.615,"end":718.037,"text":"重點是你今天行政程序繁瑣他花的成本可能不止兩萬六但是重點是花了不止兩萬六的成本之後還不一定辦得成這個才是問題好不好所以今天我希望你們這一套的檢討執聘我非常的贊成往這個方向去做但是你們的成效不彰我希望你們可以有一個檢討那你這個行政程序的檢討什麼時候要出來"},{"start":719.898,"end":731.102,"text":"有一個新的 便捷的 讓民眾很有感的就是我可以透過職聘找到我需要的外籍移工郭文維說我們其實目前也在評估時程因為有些部分比較 因為其實它的功效蠻多的有些部分可以比較快有些部分可能還要多一點時間沒關係 你給外界一個時間我們來監督你嘛 你預計什麼時候可以把這一個"},{"start":742.706,"end":760.324,"text":"修改過後的流程然後送給委員會好不好我們看能不能在三個月內然後三個月內把其實相關在做這個部分強化跟改進的我們的一些思考跟評估那送到委員會這邊來可是實際的法規修訂其實會當然"},{"start":763.928,"end":781.464,"text":"就是還需要一點過程這樣好我認為這件事情很重要那如果部長你有魄力想要去做的話委員會這邊一定是支持的好不好就怕你們沒有沒有魄力而且也沒有很有效率的提出一個可改善的方案那三個月後就送到委員會好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言接下來請廖委長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:57:39+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:57:40.412000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請洪部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T09:57:40.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T09:57:41.824000+08:00","text":"有請洪部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:57:41.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:57:41.824000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:57:54.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:57:55.022000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:57:55.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:58:08.772000+08:00","text":"今天有關於強迫勞動的議題是非常重要，因為大家知道美國301條款已經開始啟動調查，我們臺灣其實是要被調查的國家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:58:09.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:58:29.263000+08:00","text":"另外，我們可以看到歐盟禁止強迫勞動產品上市的規章也即將要上路，所以強迫勞動不僅是關乎移工人權的議題，也涉及到我們的企業，將來這些產品可不可以在美國或歐盟繼續擴展通路。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:58:30.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:58:33.904000+08:00","text":"我們看到行政院今天即將要審議通過就服法，這是勞動部提出來的……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:58:39.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:58:39.606000+08:00","text":"列為討論案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:58:40.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:58:41.108000+08:00","text":"列為討論案，會通過嗎？","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:58:41.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:58:41.108000+08:00","text":"應該會吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:58:42.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:58:45.231000+08:00","text":"現在在開行政院院會，列為討論案。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:58:45.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:59:05.127000+08:00","text":"好，如果今天這個法案行政院院會通過之後，第一個問題，我要請教部長，根據ILO的強迫勞動指標有11項，按照行政院現在送出來的版本，這次修法在這11項當中可以改善的事項有幾項？","quality":0.747},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:59:08.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:59:13.840000+08:00","text":"這次行政院的版本主要是針對留置證件這一項，所以是11項之1。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:59:15.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:59:16.240000+08:00","text":"只有1項。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:59:16.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:59:17.901000+08:00","text":"這次是針對留置證件的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:59:18.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:59:19.581000+08:00","text":"那太少了吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:59:20.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:59:34.444000+08:00","text":"11項只改善1項，請問如果美國301條款啟動調查的話，11項當中，我們只有針對身分證、相關證件扣留這一項，另外10項怎麼辦？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:59:34.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:59:34.504000+08:00","text":"一樣違反嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T09:59:36.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:59:52.659000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，並不是這樣子的，其實這11項裡面，我們也都有梳理，也有對應相關的我們目前既有的法規，有一些是對應就服法，有一些是對應勞基法，比方，工時問題對應的是勞基法，可能有一些是就服法，也會有一些是性工法。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T09:59:52.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T09:59:57.904000+08:00","text":"好，請問你全部盤點之後，包括今天行政院要通過的，這重要的關鍵指標11項，你可以改善幾項？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:00:02.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:00:15.087000+08:00","text":"我先跟委員說明，我們自己在相關的法規盤點之後，我們認為在法規強度上面確實有改善必要的有幾個，第一個就是剛才講到留置證件的部分，再來就是關於抵債勞務的部分。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:00:15.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:00:17.488000+08:00","text":"抵債勞務有在這次修法裡面嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:00:17.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:00:18.108000+08:00","text":"抵債勞務沒有在這次修法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:00:19.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:00:19.868000+08:00","text":"為什麼不放進去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:00:20.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:00:31.297000+08:00","text":"因為抵債勞務部分，我們對美方是承諾三年內會針對招募費的部分，在製造業和漁撈業要以法規的方式修訂，抵債勞務……","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:00:31.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:00:35.160000+08:00","text":"所以美方有同意我們三年內改善，三年內不追究嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:00:35.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:00:35.921000+08:00","text":"有，可是……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:00:36.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:00:40.065000+08:00","text":"如果有的話，為什麼這次巨大還是發生產品被扣留這麼嚴重的事件？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰：跟委員說明","start":"2026-04-09T10:00:43.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:00:45.069000+08:00","text":"第一個，一個部分是個案、一個部分是通案。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰：跟委員說明","start":"2026-04-09T10:00:46.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:01:06.315000+08:00","text":"關於巨大的部分，其實巨大公司這段時間也很積極的改善，政府是針對通案的部分來進行，所以剛才講的，三年內要以法規禁止向移工收取招募費及相關費用，尤其是在製造業和漁撈業的部分，這是我們跟美方討論好有共識的承諾事項。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:01:07.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:01:09.983000+08:00","text":"為什麼你的速度沒有辦法再加快？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:01:10.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:01:20.594000+08:00","text":"因為禁止招募費這一個項目、抵債勞務，事實上是ILO在禁止強迫勞動裡面非常關鍵的事項。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:01:20.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:01:44.512000+08:00","text":"我給部長看一個數據，這個是國際調查記者2019年的調查，等一下可以讓你們回應，其顯示有高達66.7%移工需要借貸支付仲介費，第一個，請教勞動部，你們有沒有最新的調查，這個數據有沒有下降？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:01:44.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:01:59.596000+08:00","text":"第二個，如果情況這麼嚴重的話，事實上，禁止收取招募費應該是非常關鍵的，為什麼不放在這一次的修法裡面，既然要修了，為什麼不直接把它放進去一併處理？","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:01:59.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:02:09.626000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，的確在我們2月剛出爐的指引裡面，其實我們也認為抵債勞務是很關鍵的部分。","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:02:11.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:02:38.142000+08:00","text":"現在的聘僱模式是臺灣從90年代開放移工聘僱以來累積下來的，我也跟委員坦承，因為臺灣大概有九成的移工聘僱是在中小企業，第一個，我們是認同這個方向必須改善，可是也因為這裡面真的涉及到滿多中小企業，可能會需要讓他們有一點調適期。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:02:40.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:02:56.659000+08:00","text":"所以我並不是三年後才來處理，是我們現在從指引到宣導，甚至在各種制度上面，包括接下來的仲介評鑑都必須進行相關的修訂，把這個公平招募聘僱的模式一步一步引導到比較朝向現在國際上面要求的狀況，所以其實是這個調適期的……","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:02:58+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:07.482000+08:00","text":"這個其實已經到了關鍵時刻，你剛剛特別提到評鑑，我就要問你，你的評鑑制度，你要改哪一些關鍵內容？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:07.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:19.285000+08:00","text":"因為如果對於這些人力仲介公司，在評鑑上面你沒有辦法有一個好的鑑別力、沒有一個好的強制性的評鑑指標，事實上不會有任何改變。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:19.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:23.970000+08:00","text":"是，所以我說對於人力仲介的評鑑……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:23.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:25.890000+08:00","text":"所以你的重點，你要改變哪些？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:26.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:31.631000+08:00","text":"你如果今天回答不出來，我希望你們就是把一個報告給……你可不可以把重點告訴大家？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:32.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:37.833000+08:00","text":"可以，就是我們要把公平招募的概念放入變成是其中的評鑑指標，甚至要讓它……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:37.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:40.353000+08:00","text":"那你現在持續……你沒有禁止招募費啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:41.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:42.814000+08:00","text":"這個會有衝突的，你知道嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:42.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:47.915000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個事情是，因為法規的禁止，我剛才說3年要處理這件事情，所以是……","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:48.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:50.116000+08:00","text":"對，那你評鑑要先行嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:50.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:50.576000+08:00","text":"評鑑當然要先改。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:50.576000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:51.576000+08:00","text":"所以現在已經……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:03:51.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:03:59.880000+08:00","text":"好，所以如果有高額招募費、高額仲介費的，他就不可能成為A級的人力仲介公司，是這樣子嗎？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:00.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:09.905000+08:00","text":"在這個評鑑裡面，當然現在我們還在細部上面去做這些評估跟規劃，可是評鑑的確是一定……不可能是3年後，這個評鑑一定是要一段時間……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:09.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:10.225000+08:00","text":"好，新修正的這個評鑑制度，你預計什麼時候上路？","quality":0.45},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:15.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:18.091000+08:00","text":"評鑑的內容我們現在還在研議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:18.091000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:19.091000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:18.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:20.593000+08:00","text":"這部分其實發展署很密切在研議。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:20.593000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:21.593000+08:00","text":"是，來得及嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:21.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:22.836000+08:00","text":"我們也希望能夠儘快。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:22.836000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:24.818000+08:00","text":"儘快是什麼時候？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:24.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:32.125000+08:00","text":"針對哪一些評鑑能夠讓公平招募在評鑑裡面具有鑑別性，這是重點。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:32.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:33.847000+08:00","text":"對，那你預計什麼時候，要有個期程吧？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:34.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:40.435000+08:00","text":"希望至少是今年我們可以處理，然後明年是不是可以上路……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:40.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:41.496000+08:00","text":"明年正式上路？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:41.496000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:42.496000+08:00","text":"我們希望。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:41.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:43.919000+08:00","text":"今年修改指標，明年正式上路？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:44.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:46.202000+08:00","text":"我們現在在研議這個相關的指標。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:46.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:04:58.036000+08:00","text":"好，我希望這一個事情，你如果沒有做一個關鍵性的改變，事實上這些現象是不會消失的，因為修法速度慢，你如果要評鑑先行，就要有一個強制性的指標。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:04:58.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:05:03.522000+08:00","text":"接下來我要問，另外一個你提到的就是直聘，直聘部分也是現在一個很大的問題。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:05:03.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:05:20.688000+08:00","text":"事實上我們在講這一些大額的仲介費等等，有另外一個你可以幫助中小企業聘的管道就是直聘制度，你怎麼讓它更便利化，你怎麼透過這些直聘一方面讓移工省下費用，一方面雇主這邊也一樣可以省下費用？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:05:21.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:05:44.678000+08:00","text":"我看到你的這個直聘制度，現在有三大問題，第一個就是你的程序是非常繁瑣的，有很多民眾也想要自己聘，但是程序繁瑣，有的只是勾錯欄位就被退件，他哪有那個美國時間一直去跑你的直聘中心，最後跑到一半放棄了，還是回頭找仲介公司！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:05:45.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:05:47.640000+08:00","text":"這個程序繁瑣的問題，我覺得你們到現在還沒有改善。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:05:47.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:06:19.483000+08:00","text":"第二個，直聘服務中心過去從9處縮減成1處，然後從去年到今年再增加到變3處，這是雞生蛋、蛋生雞的問題，你整個行政程序沒有改善，你沒有一個更友善的、更便捷的措施，所以量就很少；量很少，你回過頭來就去裁撤了這一些直聘服務中心，然後又更不便利了，又更少，這就是一個惡性循環，變成現在這樣的情況。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:06:19.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:06:25.027000+08:00","text":"所以你的直聘比例現在非常低，整體比例企業的部分不到3%吧？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:06:26.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:06:41.218000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個，強化直聘是我們現在的一個非常重要的工作目標，其中有幾個做法，第一個部分是要把直聘服務中心的數目增加……","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:06:41.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:06:42.519000+08:00","text":"你要增加到多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:06:43.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:06:43.400000+08:00","text":"過去是9處。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:06:43.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:06:48.881000+08:00","text":"接下來中部跟南部也會設，但更重要的部分其實剛剛委員有講到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:06:49.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:06:49.601000+08:00","text":"行政很繁瑣。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:06:49.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:07:00.643000+08:00","text":"我們目前也在檢討，因為我們有很多在聘僱流程裡面的要求跟行政上面的關卡點，也希望能夠把它簡化。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:07:02.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:07:07.424000+08:00","text":"這個簡化的部分，我們也正在跟相關部會談，因為比方有些部會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:07:08.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:07:20.412000+08:00","text":"我提醒你，因為你上任部長之前，委員會就曾經去參觀過你們的直聘中心，當時也有要求行政流程應該要更便捷，他們也說好。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:07:21.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:07:28.078000+08:00","text":"到現在你接了部長之後還是很繁瑣，所以你們改變的速度非常緩慢！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:07:28.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:07:51.648000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，關於整個聘僱流程的簡化，現在發展署是非常非常大力地在檢討中，裡面的工項其實滿多的，概念就像剛剛委員說的一樣，這也是大家在講的，當它的程序很繁瑣，雇主要自己來辦的時候，他遇到的行政成本就會很高。是啊！","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:07:53.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:08:00.192000+08:00","text":"所以這裡面會有幾個部分，剛才講直聘的點要增加，再來是流程要簡化。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:08:00.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:08:14.320000+08:00","text":"接下來有一個部分也很重要，因為直聘要談的是國對國的選工，所以我們也要針對國對國的選工來增加跟來源國的商議，希望在國對國的選工裡面，來源國給的移工人數之供給能夠更穩定。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:08:20.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:08:35.567000+08:00","text":"這也是為什麼我們在今年的公務預算裡面有編列延攬中心，跨國延攬中心就是希望有更多可以跟來源母國談國對國的供應點，可是……","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:08:35.567000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:08:36.567000+08:00","text":"很好啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:08:36.567000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:08:37.567000+08:00","text":"要去做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:08:36.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:08:42.569000+08:00","text":"可是跟委員說明，這部分我們編列相關預算，需要預算通過。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:08:44.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:08:46.755000+08:00","text":"會，預算一定會通過，這個你放心，好不好？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:08:46.755000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:08:47.755000+08:00","text":"對，我們編列了相關預算……","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:08:46.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:08:51.556000+08:00","text":"但重點是你們做不出來，到底那個流程應該要怎麼簡化？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:08:51.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:08:57.478000+08:00","text":"怎麼會開會討論兩年多了還是檢討不出來，到底問題在哪裡？","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:08:57.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:08:58.978000+08:00","text":"剛剛說的這幾件事情都必須同時進行。是。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:00.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:09:02.899000+08:00","text":"這個點要增加，流程要簡化……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:02.899000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:09:04.720000+08:00","text":"國內的這個先嘛！","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:04.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:09:05.320000+08:00","text":"國對國這樣子的商談……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:05.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:09:11.062000+08:00","text":"因為你們昨天才出了一個新聞稿，我覺得很好，你告訴民眾說自己去直聘可以省兩萬六。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:11.062000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:09:12.615000+08:00","text":"那是針對越南的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:12.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:09:24.866000+08:00","text":"重點是你今天行政程序繁瑣，他花的成本可能不只兩萬六，重點是花了不只兩萬六的成本之後還不一定辦得成，這個才是問題，好不好？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:25.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:09:37.037000+08:00","text":"所以今天我希望，你們這一套直聘，我非常贊成往這個方向去做，但是你們的成效不彰，我希望你們檢討，那你行政程序的檢討什麼時候要出來？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:38.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:09:45.520000+08:00","text":"有一個新的、便捷的、讓民眾很有感的流程，可以透過直聘找到需要的外籍移工。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:46.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:09:47.461000+08:00","text":"我們目前也在評估時程，因為有些部分比較可以……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:47.461000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:09:48.461000+08:00","text":"好，預計什麼時候，你給我一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:47.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:09:49.461000+08:00","text":"有些部分因為它的工項滿多，有些部分可以比較快，有些部分可能還要多一點時間跟跨部會……","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:09:49.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:10:05.530000+08:00","text":"沒關係，你給外界一個時間，我們來監督你們，你預計什麼時候可以把修改過後的流程送給委員會？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:10:07.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:10:18.443000+08:00","text":"我們看能不能在三個月內，三個月內把相關部分強化、改進的一些思考跟評估送到委員會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:10:18.443000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:10:19.443000+08:00","text":"好，三個月內，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:10:18.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:10:23.849000+08:00","text":"可是實際的法規修訂，當然就還需要一點過程。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:10:24.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:10:31.536000+08:00","text":"好，我認為這一件事情很重要，如果部長有魄力想要去做的話，委員會這邊一定是支持的，好不好？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:10:31.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:10:39.343000+08:00","text":"就怕你們沒有魄力，而且也沒有很有效率地提出一個可改善的方案，那三個月後就送到委員會。是。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-09T10:10:39.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:10:39.363000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T10:10:39.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:10:40.104000+08:00","text":"謝謝王育敏委員發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T10:10:40.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:10:40.444000+08:00","text":"接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。","quality":0.545}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}